Podcast Summary: Choiceology with Katy Milkman

Episode: Little Bits of Happiness
Guests: Sally Millington & Ellen Evers
Date: June 2, 2025
Host: Dr. Katy Milkman

Overview

This episode of Choiceology explores the concept of “hedonic editing”—a behavioral economics strategy for maximizing happiness by managing how we experience, categorize, and remember good and bad events. Host Dr. Katy Milkman delves into the science behind why spreading out joyful events and bundling unpleasant ones enhances well-being, featuring the real-life story of Sally Millington’s year of new experiences and expert insights from behavioral scientist Ellen Evers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thought Experiment: Delivering News (00:08 – 01:23)

• Dr. Katy Milkman opens with a scenario:
  • Volunteers asked how they'd deliver two pieces of bad news (the death of pet fish while pet sitting): together or separately.
  • Consensus: It’s better to "rip the band-aid off" and deliver all the bad news at once.
  • On the flip side, delivering positive surprises (roses) over time is preferred to giving them all at once.
  • Memorable Quote:
    • "Why prolong the pain?" — Ellen Evers (01:08)

2. Sally’s Story: The Power of New Experiences (03:11 – 10:15)

• Sally Millington’s Challenge 52:

  • Sally, from York, UK, decided to try 52 new things in a year to bring more novelty and confidence into her everyday life.
  • Describes her first nervous experience at a climbing gym and the sense of achievement it brought.
  • The challenge included both big (stand-up comedy, ice hotels) and small (sitting in a hammock) experiences.
  • Over time, these regular new experiences improved her self-confidence, happiness, and sense of meaning.

  Notable Quotes & Moments:

  • “I was just so ecstatic. I was thinking, crikey, I'm actually doing this.” — Sally Millington (03:11)
  • “My legs were shaking as they stretched out and balanced onto the tiniest holds that no human should ever really be able to balance themselves on.” — Sally (03:42)
  • “I've decided to do things now, crack on with them.” — Sally (09:17)
  • “I feel like I’ve perhaps slowed down time in a weird way… I’ve got more joy that I can look back on and more to look forward to.” — Sally (09:42)

• The Science:

  • Katy draws the lesson: People are happier when joys are spaced out, not concentrated. Too often, we bundle happy experiences (like vacations), but the joy fades fast.

3. The Science of Hedonic Editing (10:15 – 16:49)

• Concept Explanation:

  • Hedonic Editing: Deliberately structuring or categorizing good and bad events to maximize happiness.
  • People naturally want to combine bad experiences (to "get them over with") and spread out good ones (to savor joy repeatedly).

  Expert Segment: Ellen Evers (12:26 – 24:29)

  • What is Hedonic Editing?
    • "How do we remember those things in a way that makes us the happiest?... Do I want to remember all those things as individual events or is it better for my well-being to just think, 'Hey, that was a terrible day. Tomorrow is another day'?" — Ellen Evers (12:43)
  • Prospect Theory Connection:
    • Bad outcomes are best grouped. Good outcomes are best separated (“segregating our gains but aggregating our losses”).
    • “You’re happier if you get 5 M&Ms a day for a week than if you have to eat 35 on one single day.” — Ellen (15:58)
    • Negative experiences (e.g., electric shocks) are less unpleasant when grouped.

4. Practical Applications & Caveats (16:49 – 24:29)

• Application in Daily Life:

  • Schedule fun activities over time rather than all at once.
  • When bad things happen, reframing them as a single “bad week” can help minimize psychological pain.
  • Similarity is key: It’s easier to bundle losses that are alike (e.g., two bad grades) than very different ones (e.g., bad grade and dropping a burrito).
    • "If a good thing happens, actually, I want the other good thing to happen next week. I want to split them out so I maximize my happiness." — Ellen Evers (19:53)

• Expert’s Personal Take:

  • Ellen reflects that she now considers how she’ll remember experiences and how categorization helps well-being.
  • "I'm more and more convinced that as a field, getting a better understanding of how humans categorize these things can really, really help us... increase well-being." — Ellen (22:28)

• Advice for Listeners:

  • “Retrospectively thinking about bad things that happened and thinking about, is there a way I can categorize this as a single bad thing that I can deal with and get over?” — Ellen (24:18)
  • Also, deliberately spreading out pleasures enhances enjoyment.

5. Closing Reflections (24:33 – end)

• Historical Perspective:
  • Machiavelli recognized principles of hedonic editing centuries ago:
    • “Do all the harm you must at one and the same time. That way the full extent of it will not be noticed and it will give least offense. One should do good on the other hand, little by little so people can fully appreciate it.” — (Dr. Katy Milkman quoting Machiavelli, 25:00)
• Practical Reminders:
  • Combine bad news to minimize total pain; spread out the good for lasting joy.
  • Be wary of manipulation by leaders who bundle bad news to decrease backlash.
  • Example in investing: If selling off losing positions, do it together (not piecemeal) to soften the emotional blow.
  • “When life gives you roses, you want them to come one at a time… but when life gives you lemons, it's better for them to come in lemon bouquets. Misery is worse when it's spread out…” — Katy (25:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Time | | ------- | ---- | | Delivering Good and Bad News (Thought Experiment) | 00:08 – 01:23 | | Sally Millington's Story: Challenge 52 | 03:11 – 10:15 | | Hedonic Editing Explained (with Ellen Evers) | 12:26 – 24:29 | | Practical Life Applications | 16:49 – 24:29 | | Advice for Listeners | 23:30 – 24:18 | | Machiavelli Quote & Closing Advice | 25:00 – End |

Notable Quotes

• “Why prolong the pain?” — Ellen Evers (01:08)
• “I was just so ecstatic… Crikey, I'm actually doing this.” — Sally Millington (03:11)
• “I feel like I've perhaps slowed down time in a weird way…” — Sally (09:42)
• “During periods of time we can experience a lot of things… the question is, how do we remember those things in a way that makes us the happiest?” — Ellen Evers (12:43)
• “You’re happier if you get 5 M&Ms a day for a week than if you have to eat 35 on one single day.” — Ellen Evers (15:58)
• “Misery is worse when it's spread out, so that's to be avoided.” — Katy Milkman (25:00)

Summary Takeaways

• Maximize Happiness: To get the most joy, spread positive experiences out over time; for negative events, try to group them together.
• Apply It: Use hedonic editing in your own life—don’t save all your fun for one vacation, and when possible, move through bad experiences at once.
• Think Critically: Recognize when others use this tactic to shape your perception of events, especially in organizational or political settings.

Relevant Resources

• Sally Millington’s Challenge 52 website: [Link in show notes/schwab.com podcast]
• Ellen Evers’ research paper on hedonic editing: [Link in show notes/schwab.com podcast]

Choiceology will return mid-August with new episodes. In the meantime, explore previous episodes or related podcasts like Financial Decoder for more behavioral insights.