Choiceology with Katy Milkman

Episode: The Buddy System
Host: Katy Milkman
Guests: Max Maeder & Rachel Gershon
Date: August 12, 2024

Overview

This episode of Choiceology centers on the powerful impact of pursuing goals together—whether in education, sports, or personal development. Host Dr. Katy Milkman presents real-world examples and academic research demonstrating how "the buddy system" boosts motivation, adherence, and success, despite added coordination challenges. The episode features Formula Kite world champion Max Maeder sharing his experiences training with a rival-turned-ally, as well as Dr. Rachel Gershon discussing research on the benefits of tandem goal pursuit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dolly Parton Buddy Program – An Early Example of Tandem Incentives

• Story Introduction [00:09-02:00]:
  The episode opens with the story of Dolly Parton's "Buddy Program" in Sevier County, TN, where students were promised $500 if both they and their assigned "buddy" graduated from high school. The twist: if one failed to graduate, neither got the reward.
• Impact:
  • High school dropout rates dropped dramatically from 35% to 6%.
  • Sparked similar initiatives promoting collective incentives in education.
• Underlying Principle:
  Strong accountability and shared motivation can drive substantial positive change.

2. Max Maeder’s Story: Training Together for World-Class Results

Introduction to Kite Foiling [02:25-04:40]

• Max Maeder: Singaporean athlete and world champion in Formula Kite—a high-speed, hydrofoil sailing sport.
• Why he loves kite foiling:
  "The first thing that I enjoyed about kite foiling was the freedom and the simple silence of going over the water surface. It’s a little bit surreal." — Max Maeder [04:27]

Complexity and Skills in Kite Foiling [05:04-06:02]

• Four key principles: mastering the start, efficient foiling, transitions (switching feet and direction), and overtaking tactics.

The Importance of a Training Partner [06:12-09:42]

• Max trained with Croatian rival Martin Dolenc.
  Though competitive, they formed a powerful training partnership: "The benefits far outweigh these cons of having a training partner. ... The accountability is a part of it. There’s someone else who also wants to train and also wants to improve. So you don’t really want to slack too much." — Max Maeder [08:35]
• Training dynamics:
  • 2.5 hours together on the water,
  • Pushing each other to improve,
  • Learning discipline, coordination, and resilience.
• Challenges:
  • Requires synchronization, travel, compromise, and sometimes negotiation over methods and safety.

Competition Outcome: Palma de Mallorca Regatta [09:42-15:14]

• Max shares a high-stakes regatta story: Against world-class opponents, Max used patience and strategy honed by buddy training: "A strong competitor like Tony, you’re not going to be able to overtake him all the time in every race. ... Sometimes you simply have to be patient and say, if it works out, if I can get him, it does ... Waiting on a mistake." — Max Maeder [14:19]
• Max credits his consistent training with Martin for his success, emphasizing that mutual accountability and enjoyment helped him develop perseverance and skill.

3. The Science of Tandem Goal Pursuit

Research with Dr. Rachel Gershon (UC Berkeley) [18:34-26:25]

What Is Tandem Goal Pursuit? [18:47-19:07]

• "Tandem goal pursuit is simply people pursuing a goal ... with a friend." — Rachel Gershon [18:47]

Experiment: Exercising with a Buddy [19:10-21:46]

• Study at UCSD: 800+ undergraduates incentivized to exercise at the gym, either alone or only when accompanied by a specific friend.
  • Tandem reward: Must go together to get the reward.
  • Individual reward: Can go alone or together.
• Key Finding:
  "They [students] went to the gym about 35% more often than those who received an individual reward." — Rachel Gershon [20:59]
• Surprise: The higher motivation persisted despite added 'costs' (scheduling, coordination).

Why Tandem Goal Pursuit Works [21:46-22:32]

• Enjoyment is higher with friends.
• Accountability: Not wanting to let your buddy down.
• Multiple motivating mechanisms at play.

Applicability and Broader Insights [22:33-24:36]

• Extends beyond exercise: language learning, writing, quitting smoking, and workplace goals.
• Greater benefit for those least likely to engage (the less active in the buddy pair).
• Positive spillover: Bonds between buddies are strengthened.
  • "People actually felt closer to their friend by the end of this study." — Rachel Gershon [24:27]

Practical Recommendations [24:06-25:29]

• Advice:
  "Find an accountability buddy ... Not only can this be mutually beneficial for pursuing your goals, but ... also helping with social goals of staying close with your friends." — Rachel Gershon [24:06]

Personal Impact [25:29-26:21]

• Rachel applies these findings in her own life, integrating tandem goal pursuit through productivity groups and joint workouts.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Power of Social Motivation:
  "The accountability is a part of it. There's someone else who also wants to train and also wants to improve. So you don't really want to slack too much." — Max Maeder [08:35]

• On Overcoming Coordination Costs:
  "We found that people overcame these costs and actually exercised more often when they had to go with their friend. And yeah, so we found that pretty surprising." — Rachel Gershon [21:46]

• On Universal Benefits:
  "This has the greatest benefit for the people that were exercising less at the start ... but it actually also benefited the people who were exercising more than their buddies. ... It doesn't backfire." — Rachel Gershon [25:01]

• On Strengthening Friendships:
  "People actually felt closer to their friend by the end of this study." — Rachel Gershon [24:27]

Major Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dolly Parton's Buddy Program: [00:16-02:00]
• Introduction to Max Maeder & Kite Foiling: [02:25-06:02]
• Benefits of Training Partnerships: [06:12-09:42]
• High-Stakes Regatta Story: [09:53-15:14]
• Transition to Research/Science: [18:32]
• Definition & Explanation of Tandem Goal Pursuit: [18:47-19:07]
• UCSD Gym Experiment & Results: [19:40-21:46]
• Mechanisms and Applicability: [21:54-24:36]
• Practical Advice and Personal Application: [24:06-26:21]

Takeaways

• Working toward a goal with a partner offers measurable advantages, including improved motivation, higher adherence, and increased enjoyment.
• The benefits are often strong enough to outweigh extra practical hassles, such as coordination and scheduling.
• Tandem goal pursuit fosters accountability and deepens social bonds, making it not just a productivity strategy, but also a relational one.
• The approach is especially helpful for those struggling with consistency—and does not harm high performers in a pair.
• Actionable recommendation: Identify an "accountability buddy" for your next personal or professional goal to boost your odds of success, and enjoy the journey together.

Tone

Conversational, curious, and optimistic. Both host and guests emphasize practical relevance, personal anecdotes, and concrete research findings, balancing inspiring stories with actionable insights.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking the main ideas and scientific evidence behind the buddy system for achieving goals.