The Religion Business Exposed (ft. Nathan Apffel)

Summary

Chrisley Confessions 2.0 – “The Religion Business Exposed” (ft. Nathan Apffel)

PodcastOne | April 1, 2026
Summary by EpisodePodcast

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Episode Overview

The Chrisleys return with a powerful, deeply personal conversation exposing the underbelly of the American religious institution. Joined by filmmaker and investigative journalist Nathan Apffel, Todd Chrisley dives into faith, financial exploitation, abuse scandals, and the urgent need for institutional reform in the church. The discussion is candid, challenging, and at times, uncomfortable, directly addressing both personal and systemic failures in organized religion—across denominations, but with a focus on megachurches, the LDS Church, and nonprofit faith organizations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nathan Apffel’s “The Religion Business” Project

• Premise: Explores the trillion-dollar annual giving of Christians worldwide, contrasting church wealth with social responsibility. [03:27]
  • “It looks at the trillion dollars a year...that generous Christians around the world give to their churches and their religious organizations. So that's bigger than the US Military budget.” – Nathan [03:29]
• Motivation: Nathan’s global travels showed how vibrant church communities thrive without big budgets, highlighting the contrast with American megachurch spending.
• Personal Turning Point: Nathan shares how childhood proximity to church leadership led to first-hand awareness of abuse and cover-ups. [04:49–05:58]

2. Institutional Corruption and Cover-Ups

• Cover-Up Culture: Both reflect on why churches conceal misdeeds, from sexual scandals to financial abuse. [07:12–08:03]
  • “People tend to hide what they can't explain away...if what they can't explain away conflicts with the narrative that they're selling, then that cuts into their marketability.” – Todd [07:31]
• Market Forces in Faith: Discussion of how churches, especially those catering to the wealthy, become brands, prioritizing image and marketability over integrity. [08:03–10:08]

3. Finances, Tithes, and the LDS (Mormon) Example

• LDS Assets: LDS Church sits on $350 billion (approaching $1 trillion in the next 20 years), largely invested rather than used to help congregants. [10:50–13:36]
  • “They say they are, but you know, they will come over to your house and look into your pantries to see what food you have. Like, they just don't help you. When you say, hey, I need help.” – Nathan [11:47]
• Escape Velocity: LDS investment returns are so high, they could run the global church off profits alone, but they continue to collect tithes. [12:37–13:36]
  • “They could fund the entire global church off a portion of their profits in the market...never ask for a dollar again from their congregation, and the church would thrive in perpetuity.” – Nathan [13:36]
• Broader Critique: Churches are amassing “idols” in form of real estate and wealth, while presenting minimal acts of charity for PR.

4. Churches as Businesses and the Real Estate Game

• Second Baptist, Houston: Over 99 years, this church built assets worth $1 billion—recent controversial loss of congregational voting rights in favor of a small, connected leadership group (potential real estate scam). [21:22–23:55]
  • “Within these backroom deals, they wiped out the voting rights of 94,000 members and put it in the hands of six people...it's a scam. It's a real estate scam.” – Nathan [22:40]

5. Accountability Gaps and Legal Loopholes

• Lack of Oversight: Religious organizations are not required to file IRS 990 forms, meaning no compulsory public financial accountability. [28:49–29:46]
  • “There is no accountability. And everybody goes. Stephen Furtick's my favorite. He goes, ‘Nathan, you know, we, we get third party audited.’ Okay, let's talk about the party...those third party audits are just smoke and mirrors.” – Nathan [29:05]
• Financial Exploitation: Estimated $92 billion is stolen from churches every year, primarily by church staff. [30:18]
  • “It's estimated $92 billion a year is straight stolen from churches every year. 90 billion church staff.” – Nathan [30:15]

6. Abuse, Power, and Institutional Rot

• Sexual Abuse Patterns: Where financial abuse and lack of oversight exist, sexual abuse usually follows. This is evident in multiple denominations. [34:05–34:28]
  • “When there's an opportunity for financial abuse and mismanagement without accountability, sexual abuse usually is right behind it.” – Nathan [34:11]
• Organizations as Vehicles for Crime: Mobsters and criminals exploit church structures for laundering and trafficking due to legal protection from scrutiny. [34:28–35:04]
• Victim Experiences: Both Nathan and Todd discuss cycles of silence, NDAs used to suppress survivor voices in churches. [56:18–57:02]
  • “It's your strength that's going to change all this. And there's been a status quo of silence and a lot of times legal. So a lot of these churches are using NDAs to silence victims.” – Nathan [56:18]

7. Personal Stories and Impact

• Todd’s Childhood Abuse: Powerfully, Todd reveals being molested by a trusted dermatologist—a secret he kept until adulthood. [57:02–58:01]
  • “That did happen to me as a child by a dermatologist that my mother took us to when we were children...” – Todd [57:02]
• The Shame Cycle: Todd warns that shame perpetuates abuse cycles, advocates for open dialogue regardless of societal taboo.

8. Brand-building vs. Mission

• Church Celebrities: Todd decries churches transformed into “brands” by pastors seeking personal fame, often via celebrity association. [36:00–36:44]
  • “This is Brand Building 101...one particular guy who is huge now because of one musician that he tied himself to.” – Todd [36:00]
• Idolatry: Many churches, he says, break the commandment not to use God’s name for personal vanity.

9. Samaritan’s Purse & Franklin Graham

• Positive Examples & Critique: Billy Graham avoided even the appearance of impropriety with money. In contrast, Nathan questions Franklin Graham’s leadership, especially SP’s asset growth and expensive Alaska operation benefiting personal interests, not the needy. [41:22–44:38]
  • “You have 130 million in private aircraft. You're building comforts...Franklin has taken the name of his dad and just slowly built and built, built. But now they've shifted it to where it's looking more like the Mormon Church.” – Nathan [42:01 & 44:05]

10. Reform and Legislative Action

• Legal Reform: Nathan and his team are working toward federal reform for nonprofit accountability (pending legislation), seeking true transparency. [48:31–49:59]
• Call to Reform: Both agree: institutions naturally corrupt without reform and accountability; churches, like prisons and governments, have ossified and must adapt to serve true missions again. [51:56–52:45]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American Churches’ Wealth:
  • “It looks at the trillion dollars a year...that generous Christians around the world give to their churches...bigger than the US Military budget.” – Nathan [03:29]
• On Cover-Up Culture:
  • “People tend to hide what they can't explain away...if what they can't explain away conflicts with the narrative that they're selling, then that cuts into their marketability.” – Todd [07:31]
• On LDS Church Practices:
  • “You got to pay to pay...they demand money from even individuals that are really struggling. They've said you should tithe before you pay your rent.” – Nathan [10:50]
• On Financial Secrecy:
  • “Churches don’t, religious organizations do not [file IRS 990s]. So it means financial—there is no accountability.” – Nathan [28:49]
• On Abuse & Accountability:
  • “Where there’s financial abuse...sexual abuse usually is right behind it.” – Nathan [34:11]
• On Institutional Rot:
  • “Mob boss ... if I could go back, I wouldn’t get into the mob. I’d start a church.” – Nathan [34:28]
• On Personal Impact:
  • “Shame is like cancer. The more you feed it, the more it grows. And when people take accountability...every story is different.” – Todd [58:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:14] Todd introduces Nathan and the episode’s honest, educational purpose.
• [03:27] Nathan introduces “The Religion Business” documentary.
• [04:49] Discussion of faith vs. finances and personal motivations for investigating church corruption.
• [10:50] LDS Church finances, compulsory tithes, and investment strategy.
• [21:22] Case study: Second Baptist Church and legal power grabs.
• [28:49] Financial transparency shortfalls; the missing IRS 990 filings.
• [34:05] Patterns of sexual abuse, organizational structures exploited for crime.
• [41:22] Samaritan’s Purse examined—questioned accountability and possible conflicts of interest.
• [48:31] Legislative reform for nonprofit accountability.
• [52:45] Institutional resistance to reform.
• [57:02] Todd’s deeply personal story of abuse and the lingering effects.
• [62:50] Real message of Christianity: Empowering the people, not the institution.

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Episode Tone & Closing

Frank, sometimes humorous but always earnest, this episode exposes deep wounds in American Christianity while challenging listeners to demand more from religious institutions. Nathan and Todd blend personal anecdotes, investigative reporting, and straight talk, urging transparency, survivor empowerment, and a return to the heart of Christ’s teachings.

Closing Sentiment

“If you're out there and you're a survivor, vocalize...it's you who are going to be the change in all of this.” – Nathan [56:32]

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Next Episode Tease

Nathan will return after the release of “The Religion Business” Season 2 to dig deeper into ritualistic abuse, name names, and further break the silence—on Chrisley Confessions. [66:18–66:33]

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This summary captures the full depth of the conversation, providing key references, timestamps, and quotes to ensure listeners and newcomers alike understand both the urgency and hope at the heart of this explosive episode.

Transcript

[Todd Chrisley]

Why have I asked my h vac

[Nathan Apfel]

guy I found on angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? I was so amazed at how he

[Todd Chrisley]

replaced our air ducts. I knew I could trust him to

[Nathan Apfel]

change Pop Pop's tube.

[Todd Chrisley]

I think we should call a Dr.

[Nathan Apfel]

Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust.

[Todd Chrisley]

Find pros for all your home [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states with VRBoCare. Help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

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[Todd Chrisley]

Welcome to Chris the Confessions 2.0 folks. I have a guy here today that his publicist, Nathan Apfel, whose publicist reached out to me many months ago about a topic regarding faith and about a project that you were working on regarding the churches around the country. And everyone knows that we have a strong faith based background and that we are Christian. But your project has caused me to take a much deeper look into what faith really means in our country today. And so I know that everyone loves to hear all things Chrisley. I was just told a couple of weeks ago that our shows rate the highest when it's family talking to family. But I'm giving you this today because I want to educate you, the people that are listening, the same time that I'm being educated because we're going to talk about some heavy stuff in this, in this first round and some of it's going to be uncomfortable for me. So I have said to you today, talk about whatever it is that you want to talk about and educate me. So thank you for coming today.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, thanks for having me. And I want to start off with I'm a Christ follower through and through. I believe he's the way, the truth and the life and no one gets to Our Father, our Creator, except through him.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

I want to start with. We're here with a unifying message. We're here to unify the body of Christ.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And that takes truth and light.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so we are here to just turn the light on. And in season one, we realized really quickly, when you turn a light on, the cockroaches run. And then people who want to step into the light willingly step forward. And so, yeah, our message is one of unity. And Christ called us to unify as a body. And so we're here to call the wolves to account and at the same time, encourage Christians to that you are a vital part of this living organism of the body.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And that's what we want to reinvigorate.

[Todd Chrisley]

And so now tell me about your project. What's the title of your project?

[Nathan Apfel]

Title of the project is called the Religion Business.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And it looks at the trillion dollars a year. Trillion dollars, Trillion dollars every year that generous Christians around the world give to their churches and their religious organizations. So that's bigger than the US Military budget.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so Christians have so much power from their generosity to their talent and time, and it's being massively underutilized and a lot of times abused. And so that's what season one looks at.

[Todd Chrisley]

So what caused you to start digging into this?

[Nathan Apfel]

I was raised in megachurches in Los Angeles, and then I moved to San Diego, and I traveled the world for about 25 years, since I was 18, working on travel TV shows. And I loved to visit churches and seminaries wherever I'd go. So I'd end up in mostly developed, developing nations because I worked in the action sports world. And so I'd be in the favelas in Brazil and then in underground churches in Asia and in Indonesia. And I realized really quickly that money is not needed to build a beautiful church gathering. And so then I would come back to the States, and all of a sudden I'd walk into the big buildings, and they were always asking for money, right? And so I just asked the question, like, what have we built a machine that's so expensive, why have we built this? It doesn't say to do any of this in the Bible, right?

[Todd Chrisley]

And so it says opposite of that, Don't. Don't build temples in my name.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, in Matthew 25, you know, help the thirsty, give water to the thirsty, feed the hungry, help the poor, help the widow, the marginalized, the prisoner, the sojourner. And so I became obsessed with, okay, what did Christ actually command us to do? And and what can we do with the generosity of Christians? And so, and then there was another big story that happened. My youth pastor, he was my junior high pastor, became my high school pastor, was being groomed to take over this mega church. And I loved him. I would stay at his house, he would travel, I'd travel with him to youth camps and all that. He ended up raping his adopted kid. And yeah, he, he was, he got out of jail I think last year. So he's been in jail for almost, I think over, over 20 years. And that really pressed me because I also said, how could this man that my parents fully let me hang, hang out with is a 13 year old boy? How could he, for a decade and a half be abusing a child? And no one, not even his wife, like, see that something was off.

[Todd Chrisley]

Don't you think that that comes down to perception? Because we cloak so much in faith, we feel that if we wrap it in faith that it's more sellable. So I mean, it's almost like with the Catholic church, you know, with all of these kids that were, that were molested there. You know, it's always been so baffling to me because growing up in the, in a rural country town, you know, you had, you had to be in church on Wednesday nights, Sunday morning, Sunday nights. But I knew at an early age, you know, 11, 12, 13, that people were doing things in our church, you know, that they were not supposed to be doing. But no one ever talked about that. And then as I got older and understood that, you know, the music director was actually making out with the choir director, but both of them were married to somebody else. And I was like, this just doesn't fit right with me.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, I got a question for you. Why it's cover up culture, right? You know, why do you think a church, an institution, a brand, whether that be I go to Awaken or, or Lakewood or wherever. Why do you think churches feel the need to cover up as opposed to expose?

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, I think that in my, my beliefs are that people, people tend to hide what they can't explain away. And if the, if what they can't explain away conflicts with the narrative that they're selling, then that cuts into their marketability. So that's how I've always looked at it. You know, we're not, I'm not going to sit and tell you that, you know, this neighborhood's a great neighborhood, but there's a landfill that might go in back here.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

Okay, then. Now you've depreciated the asset. So, you know, I remember moving to LA in 1986 and I remember seeing the Mormon Cathedral that was right there off of Santa Monica, and I thought, that is the most gorgeous church I've ever seen. And I didn't know. I knew nothing about a Mormon at all. I mean, I was, I'm Southern Baptist and grew up Church of God. Fashion wasn't as good in Church of God. So, you know, when I left that little town and moved to Los Angeles and saw the Mormon Cathedral, I mean, it was absolutely one of the most beautiful buildings I'd ever seen. And I automatically, at 18 years old, thought the Mormons must be the richest people in faith because their churches were like so much better than the Southern Baptist church that I grew up in, you know, in size and in quality and construction and glitz and glam. And then I started paying attention in my 20s and I started realizing the difference between the faiths and that I was going to stick with being a Southern Baptist. I did not grow up in a church that, that grew large amounts of wealth, nor was the congregation there that had a lot of wealth to give to a church to grow it like that. But I do know that in the next town over, that church, you know, was a big church and they catered to the wealthy families of that town. And so, you know, getting into your project, it caused me to go back to my youth and it helped me to understand some of the things that, that I had questions about then, but that have now been answered in following some of the stuff that you're doing. And you know, when you're publicist. Kathy would she. She's been very good about keeping you at the front of my feed.

[Nathan Apfel]

Good to know.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yes. She. She literally keeps you at the top of my feed.

[Nathan Apfel]

Thank you, Kathy.

[Todd Chrisley]

Of messaging me with another article or something else that you're working on. And I'm like, I wish she would just leave me alone for a minute. I want to do this. And then I started because a lot of times I'll like something, I'll look at it first and I won't read the whole thing, but I'll like it. Just so that you think I've been polite, but thanks, Todd.

[Nathan Apfel]

I started.

[Todd Chrisley]

No, because she was so persistent that I started reading it and then I got scared.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, so a lot of people don't want to look at what we're presenting because the truth hurts. The truth is stress.

[Todd Chrisley]

The church is uncomfortable at times, especially

[Nathan Apfel]

if you've grown up in a system. Let's take the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church is sitting on about $350 billion billion dollars in assets. They're going to hit a trillion dollars in market assets in the next two decades. And what's happened with the Mormon Church is they're a church that preaches compulsory tithe. So you're going to bring your 10% into the storehouse of the Mormon Church and it's required for you to get your temple recommend card. So if you want to be a part of, really be a part of this church, we require, you got to pay to pay. You got to pay. So what's happened is what they do is, and this is the thing that breaks my heart, they demand money from even individuals that are really struggling. They've said you should tithe before you pay your rent. We can help you with your rent if you don't have money for that, but you need to give us your 10%. So what happened?

[Todd Chrisley]

What are they helping when they ask?

[Nathan Apfel]

That's a slippery slope. They say they are, but you know, they will come over to your house and look into your pantries to see what food you have. Like, they just don't help you. When you say, hey, I need help. There's a serious checklist, but. So what's happened in the LDS Church is they've taken this 10% from whether you're wealthy or struggling, and they invest it in the market. They don't tell you to go, hey, take that 10% and invest it in the market so you can prosper.

[Todd Chrisley]

But is it the church supposed to utilize their tithes to help the community, to help those that are in need?

[Nathan Apfel]

In theory, yes. But they don't get me wrong, they'll say, hey, Nathan, we give a billion dollars a year to humanitarian aid. So, and this goes to show, this is what most churches do, but that's

[Todd Chrisley]

not 10% of what they're working.

[Nathan Apfel]

Exactly. It's a dog and pony show. So they say, hey, we're doing this, this nice thing over here, as they're investing and they're growing their, their business to a trillion dollars a year. And so what's happened in the LDS church is they've actually hit something that the widows might report. So they're a group of investigators, financers. Many of them have worked for the church in the past. Um, they, the widows might report, calls it escape velocity. So they have so much invested in the market that their returns are averaging about 20 billion a year. Billion just in their returns in the market, the cost to run the global LDS Church is only 7 billion so they could fund the entire global church off a portion of their profits in the market. Never ask for a dollar again from their congregation, and the church would thrive in perpetuity. But they still ask people for 10% or demand people give their 10%.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's insane.

[Nathan Apfel]

That's insane. So we've built. It's idolatry in its purest form.

[Todd Chrisley]

We've built and all that money, and they dress so poorly.

[Nathan Apfel]

What do you think of me? I'm terrified to ask.

[Todd Chrisley]

I mean, it's. You know, you. I mean, I look at you. I mean, at least you remember Jim Baker and Tammy Faye Baker. I mean, at least they were gaudy.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, they were tacky, but, I mean, you could see where they were pissing away the money.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. 100%.

[Todd Chrisley]

You know, with the Mormons, you can say, okay, well, they're putting it in real estate because you look at. You look at the cathedrals, and you look at all the places.

[Nathan Apfel]

They're the second, probably the first now they're the second largest private landowner in the US they buy farmland. They. They're building a city in Florida, all under the guise of a church. So that means they pay no taxes.

[Todd Chrisley]

Wonder how they feel about Mormon wives.

[Nathan Apfel]

I don't think they're very happy with that.

[Todd Chrisley]

No. Because I've got two of them that's reached out to me, wanting to be on my podcast. And then that was it. They have the Housewives of Salt Lake City now.

[Nathan Apfel]

I think so. Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Apfel]

My. My claim.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's been scandalous.

[Nathan Apfel]

I worked on Temptation island, but I don't watch much reality shows anymore.

[Todd Chrisley]

I don't watch it either, but my wife does. Does. Yeah. I bet that has caused a stir. You know, they have to wear those garments.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yep. And they're getting. They're getting, you know, more sexy because they realize the women don't want to wear full sleeves. So now they're.

[Todd Chrisley]

They're how. Say that fashion will drive.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And now they, you know, then. Now they're talking about allowing, I think, Kathy, are they allowing tattoos now? They will soon. Yeah. Like the church. That church follows culture. They're always decadent.

[Todd Chrisley]

Following the 10%.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's what they're following.

[Nathan Apfel]

Brilliantly said. So it's following.

[Todd Chrisley]

They're chasing. They're chasing the downer.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And. But that's what's so crazy is they could lose all their membership. Every single person could leave the Mormon Church and it would still thrive because of. Of the God they've built in the stock Market.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, you know, it's. I don't understand it. I don't, I don't claim to understand the whole Mormon faith, but you know, when I was at my summer camp for my brief moment of incarceration, I was with this guy. I was with actually several Mormons. And he has 20 children.

[Nathan Apfel]

Wow.

[Todd Chrisley]

He has 20 children by three wives.

[Nathan Apfel]

Was he a polygamist or just divorced?

[Todd Chrisley]

I think you're crazy. I mean, I don't know who in the hell wants three wives. Yeah, I don't understand that. I mean, you know, having one is enough for you to try to, to please and to try to get along with, let alone three. And you know, the others are bitching about the one that you're with tonight.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh, for sure.

[Todd Chrisley]

So why do you want to deal with that? But he has 20 kids. But he is one of 157. He is one. He has 156 siblings.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh my gosh. Wow.

[Todd Chrisley]

And I've seen the photographs.

[Nathan Apfel]

What was he in jail for?

[Todd Chrisley]

It was something to do with. He owned an oil refinery or something, processing oil or whatever from restaurants and stuff. And it had to do with a tax credit or something. Okay, taxes as usual. But I would say to him, why explain to me how this happens? Because it's so contradictory to my faith growing up as a southern baptist. Because when you take a wife, you're to cling to your wife. Your wife, the wife is to cling to her husband. It doesn't say that when you get bored with this one, you can go cling to the next one and clinging to the next one. And it, it's, it's just a weird, it's a weird religion for me.

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[Todd Chrisley]

What would be the most shocking thing that you believe? What do you. What have you uncovered that you think would be most, most shocking to me as a Southern Baptist man?

[Nathan Apfel]

Murder for hire. Like the. The stories we have.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's a Saturday in South Carolina.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh, is it? Okay, okay, but, but, but in the name of God, you know.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yeah, we don't do it.

[Nathan Apfel]

That drug running from the Middle east, you know, gun running from the Middle east on private planes.

[Todd Chrisley]

Southern Baptists do that.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, no, no, no. The Pentecostals and charismatics, you know, the Pentecostals.

[Todd Chrisley]

Look at the hairstyle.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, the. Let's see, from the Southern Baptist side of things, Baptists are pretty. Like I went. I go to The SBC convention. Like I'm a fan of Baptists. We just were in Houston two weeks ago with a buddy of mine named Tommy G. He's a big YouTuber and we always, he always comes on season and we expose one story together. And there's one church in particular called Second Baptist. It's been around for 99 years. And Houstonians have funded this church for 99 years. Generations of generous Christians, Baptists have given to this church.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And they've grown. Their assets are valued at about a billion dollars.

[Todd Chrisley]

This is crazy to me that we're talking about churches with assets that are in the billions of dollars.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yep. So that's what people when, when we think of church, we think of like even the megachurches. Lakewood, Joel Osteen, you're like, oh yeah, it's a stadium. You know, what's they generate 60 million a year. I don't know, I can't remember. But, but okay, it's a good sized business, you know. But what you don't realize is the generational giving to specific institutions. And so Second Baptist, when you have 99 years of generosity, usually 10% is what they ask for, that money goes somewhere. And a lot of times pastors will think, oh, we're being blessed, let's buy this building, let's expand to these different, they call them satellite campuses. And so Second Baptist I believe has six campuses. Five, six or seven. I can't remember the exact number, but we'll say six campuses. They have a private school and their, their annual revenues are about 130 million a year. And so but you think, oh, I'm just going to go to church. Right. But when you got 130 million pouring in every year with this is the big one without any external accountability or oversight. So churches don't file a 990, which is informational tax form with the IRS. So no one knows where that money goes. So Second Baptist balloons to about a billion in assets. There's 94,000 registered members with Second Baptist. That is a member congregant led church. So that means those 94,000 people get to vote on what happens with the buildings and the pastoral salaries and who's running this church. Well, in 2023, in some shady back end deals with which there's one lawyer involved in multiple scandals in Texas and his dad used to be the lawyer for a mob bosses in Dallas. And so you have mob boss attorneys that have now moved into the religious sphere. Within these backroom deals, they wiped out the voting rights of 94, 000 members and put it in the hands of six people. So this billion dollars in assets, it's a scam. It's a real estate scam. And so there's a lawsuit happening right now. The congregants are suing for their voting rights back because now these six members, five of which are related. And then there's this lawyer. So these six people get to decide the future of a billion dollars in assets.

[Todd Chrisley]

This sounds like something. Some shit that goes on in Congress.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, exactly. Well, it's. It's when season two, when you look at the Epstein files, there's like an underground Christian Epstein files as well. It's politic and religion run very similar and. And it's the same dirty players. You know, usually it's generational and. And I want to be very specific though. There are so many good pastors out there, but these wolves are tainting the Christian name and so that's what we're here to clean up.

[Todd Chrisley]

So you had mentioned Lakewood. Joel is a. A family friend of ours that we love dearly. Am I still good with Joel?

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, I. I have nothing. I. I have not ever looked into Joel heavily. Okay. I did get kicked out of his church, so.

[Todd Chrisley]

Oh, now you want to tell me?

[Nathan Apfel]

No, no.

[Todd Chrisley]

So comes on my show after knowing I'm friends with Joel, he's going to tell me he got kicked out.

[Nathan Apfel]

No, but that was 12, 14 years ago now. So I actually shot the whole show when I was 28.

[Todd Chrisley]

Okay.

[Nathan Apfel]

I'm 41.

[Todd Chrisley]

Okay.

[Nathan Apfel]

And I went to Lakewood was just the one on my radar. I didn't know what I was doing. I was a little. I was young.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And I was just pissed off, you know, so I'm like, let's go film some stuff.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

So I went and I actually had a great conversation with his number two. But then we brought another camera package in and they're like, you need to leave. And I'm like, okay, whatever. So I left. But I wasn't the Bible. I pray for wisdom and discernment. That's the only thing I pray for because you need that to tell stories like this. And you know, wisdom is the beginning of the fear of the Lord. And that's what I pray for. I didn't have it when I was 28.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so what I had shot it just was very ranty and just frustrating and so I just shelved it and. And I never looked into Joel again. There's way Joel is a producer, you know, he's a smart Businessman, charismatic leader. He's a very good motivation. Like, he's very motivation. Motivational in the way he speaks. I've got bigger fish to fry than Joel. And I think Joel has utilized the religious exemptions to grow his church.

[Todd Chrisley]

And there's nothing wrong with that, right?

[Nathan Apfel]

No, there's not. Legally, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Todd Chrisley]

Okay.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so that's where it's like Joel's Joel.

[Todd Chrisley]

And so Joel has not amassed no 300 and something billion dollar empire.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, I don't. I don't know. I. I don't think so. But so for me, one thing that I would ask Joel is, does your congregation know your salary? That's my only. When you get to big brands like that and big, big names like that, I believe the people funding your organization, just like any secular nonprofit, you know the leadership's salary.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And you, The. The leader should be able to explain the worth of that salary. And so, Stephen Furtick, elevation. Mike Todd, transformation in Oklahoma.

[Todd Chrisley]

So what do you think about Stephen Furtick? Because Savannah's not a fan of Stevens.

[Nathan Apfel]

I know. Personal story. He uses people, and I hate users.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, then that's in line with what Savannah said.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And when. When I read the scriptures, I. That's what I look to. And the. The scriptures preach exactly what a pastor should be. Not a lover of money, meek. You know, it's when you go down the list and I look at Furtick, I don't see any of that. And so I look to scripture, and that's what I believe shepherds should be. Stephen Furtick is a businessman. He's a musician, just like Mike Todd. And they're very charismatic on stage. And so I think accountability begins. So let's talk about accountability for Joel Osteen, for all these guys. There's no 990 that's filed for religious organizations. And this is such a crucial part of this whole problem. Secular Nonprofits file a 990 with the IRS. It's an informational sheet that shows where your money goes. Hey, I raised a million dollars this year. Hey, I raised a billion. Samaritan's Purse, you know, Samaritan's purse.

[Todd Chrisley]

Oh, here we go. Samaritan's Purse.

[Nathan Apfel]

They. They do good work.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yes. I love the family.

[Nathan Apfel]

I've been to their amazing retreat up in Alaska. They do. They do good work. So what happens, though, is if, let's say I generate a million and you generate a billion a year as secular nonprofits, we both have to file the same sheet that shows top executive salaries and Basically a generalization, a waterfall of where that million and that billion go. So donors at it and be like, okay, they used my donation and my gift how they said they were going to use it.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

That document is also a legally binding document. So if you lie on it, you're going to get in trouble.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right?

[Nathan Apfel]

So if out of my million I pocket 500 million, but don't tell anybody, they can say, hey Nathan, you lied on your 990.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right?

[Nathan Apfel]

Churches don't, religious organizations do not file that document. So it means financial.

[Todd Chrisley]

No accountability.

[Nathan Apfel]

There is no accountability. And everybody goes. Stephen Furtick's my favorite. He goes, nathan, you know, we, we get third party audited. Okay, let's talk about the party.

[Todd Chrisley]

Audited would be someone they're still choosing.

[Nathan Apfel]

And then they give their financials to that auditor and the auditor has to go, okay, they're being honest on this, on this general ledger, Right? I can doctor a general ledger all day long. Right.

[Todd Chrisley]

So could my ex CEO is perfect example, Todd.

[Nathan Apfel]

So people can doctor financials, they can't doctor where they can, but they can be held to account on informational documents to the irs. So those third party audits are just smoke and mirrors. Because I can give you that million dollars that I raised, okay, I'm going to doctor this general ledger and hand it off to this auditor. And this auditor is going to go, okay, it checks out because we can't look at the bank, bank statement.

[Todd Chrisley]

And an accountant, I learned that even though we were represented by one, you know, now we're represented by one of the largest in the world. But an accountant can only certify the numbers that are provided to them. And so if a church or someone like Stephen is giving a third party accountant numbers, then how is that accountant supposed to know if they're real or not?

[Nathan Apfel]

They have to trust that they are the source.

[Todd Chrisley]

Exactly.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so this is the bedrock. You know, there's a great proverb about what do you build your house on? Is it sand or on the rock? When you build your sometimes 315, 350 billion doll machine. Now the LDS Church, when you build your machine on a Sandy foundation, which is just trust, that machine is destined to fail. It's destined for fraud. And let's talk about this number. It's estimated $92 billion a year is straight stolen from churches every year. 90 billion church staff.

[Todd Chrisley]

You can't even trust the people in the church.

[Nathan Apfel]

No, you can't trust, you can't trust anybody. The Bible talks about this. Come on, you can't Trust anybody.

[Todd Chrisley]

You be afraid that God would strike you down. I would say I have a fear of. I have a fear of God.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. So you're wise, you got wisdom.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yeah, I have a fear of God.

[Nathan Apfel]

Wolves have moved in. So, John 3:16. Do you know the verse?

[Todd Chrisley]

Yeah. My son put it as a tattoo on the side of his body, and I had it removed on television.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh, wow.

[Todd Chrisley]

He used his body as a cheat sheet. He had gone to school, to a Christian school his whole life, but could not seem to remember that. So he decided to put it here. So now it's been removed.

[Nathan Apfel]

Okay. A few verses later, it says, christ came into the world as light, but men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. Men's hearts, humans hearts, are just evil. And if we can work in a system where there's no light and transparency and accountability, we will naturally take advantage of that system, and we will naturally take advantage of generous, trusting congregants. And so we've created hell inside the Christian church to the point where people are just leaving the faith. And it's not because they don't have faith in Christ. This is the big one. It's not because they don't have their faith. It's because they've lost faith in the institution. The institution can solve the majority of social issues here in the U.S. right? I mean, it has the money, it has the time, it has the talent. But instead, we're focused on building empires to ourselves.

[Todd Chrisley]

Mormons, help us out.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. I would love the Mormon Church. Like, the Mormon Church has the capacity to be the largest philanthropic organization in the world, but for some reason, they won't do it.

[Todd Chrisley]

I need to talk to Donnie and Marie.

[Nathan Apfel]

Let's do it. Yeah. So what we're really trying to do is we have threefold projects going on. We have the religion business. We're filming season two right now, which is social issues. So it starts. The bedrock of most social ills is child sexual abuse. So if you were abused as a child, your odds of being homeless skyrocket. Your odds of joining the foster care system are being placed in the foster care system skyrocket. About 90% of kids in the foster care system end up being abused. And so episode one looks at child sexual abuse and how the church could, like, be the biggest proponent to solve this problem financially. Because the federal government doesn't care about it, which is so ridiculous. The federal government cares about themselves.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And then episode two is homeless. Episode three.

[Todd Chrisley]

The federal government cares about themselves. And Somalia.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yes. And. And Israel and Iran, for some very. Iran in particular, which is.

[Todd Chrisley]

I stay away from Israel because you. That's God's chosen people. So I'm going to lie. I'm going to stay aligned with him on that.

[Nathan Apfel]

You're. You're chosen, bro.

[Todd Chrisley]

I feel like that, you know, because there is. There is a lot of talk about sexual abuse in the Mormon Church among the young, among the kids. Have you discovered that in your research?

[Nathan Apfel]

Yes, unfortunately. The church and, and the Southern Baptist Convention, by the way.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right, okay. Like.

[Nathan Apfel]

Like again, when there's financial abuse, Season one presents this argument. When there's an opportunity for financial abuse and mismanagement without accountability, sexual abuse usually is right behind it. Because.

[Todd Chrisley]

Because if I got away with that, why can't I get away with this?

[Nathan Apfel]

Exactly, exactly. And so ultimate power ultimately corrupts is what we always say. We sat down with a mob boss and he goes, nathan, if I could go back, he's retired in his seven, in his seventies. He goes, if I could go back, I wouldn't get into the mob. I'd start a church. Because he's like, the legal architecture of religious organizations is the perfect vehicle for

[Todd Chrisley]

abuse, for organized crime.

[Nathan Apfel]

Whatever you want to do, trafficking, money laundering, you name it. It's because no one can look inside. No one. And the IRS is terrified to audit churches. They don't want to stick their fingers in that. Now, Jim and Tammy Baker, they. They made a, you know, they made an example.

[Todd Chrisley]

Very good. And they had ptl. Yeah, yeah, I remember all that. Yeah, I used to say all that money. But why can't she just tone it down?

[Nathan Apfel]

Paula White. So, Paula, let's take Paula for as an example. So she did really good things. Like, this is the thing is when systems naturally corrupt, and you're. I think you're a byproduct of that. Your time on vacation was a byproduct of, Of a system corrupting on itself. Right. Judges in looking out for their best interest, building their brand.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

Pastors can take that same. They do take that same trajectory. Same thing with politics. A politician goes in most of them, I believe, wanting to serve the public, wanting to serve their community. Flash forward two years, four years, eight years. They're just getting paid off by lobbyists all day long. And it becomes about me, my brand. How do I build this?

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, I've watched so many in the entertainment industry, people of faith latching on to certain celebrities and then that celebrity showing up at their church or that celebrity marriage or that pastor marrying that celebrity and falling into that Circle. I mean, I. I lived in la. I mean, I went to church to some of these churches there, you know, where we all congregated. And I said to my wife, I said, this is Brand Building 101. And I watched one particular guy who is huge now because of one musician that he tied himself to.

[Nathan Apfel]

And we lose sight of the focus of what we're called to be as Christians, as pastors, and we build brands to ourselves, and that is the biblical definition of idolatry. And we're building idols to ourselves and then using the Lord's name to do it. Which one of the commandments? Do not take the Lord's name in vain. It does not say me not cussing. That's not what that means. The Bible also talks about your language, but what that means is don't use the name of God to build vanity or your own for your own vanity. And I look around, and most of these brands, I'm called brands do that. Yeah. And we've just lost sight of the mission of Christ. And.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yeah, well, I mean, I am still just baffled. Let's go back to Samaritan's Purse, because, again, the Graham family are near and dear to us. I grew up. I remember. I'm going to go ahead and admit this. You know, back when I was growing up, you know, you had to get up and turn the knob on the television, and we had 4, 7, and 13. That was our channels. And Billy Graham did the Billy Graham Crusade.

[Nathan Apfel]

I've been. I went to those as a kid.

[Todd Chrisley]

And my grandmother, Allie Mae Chrisley, God rest her soul, was one of the finest women in the world. She lived for the Billy Graham Crusades. Well, as a child, that was the most boring thing in the world when Laverne and Shirley was on the other channel. So I would go and turn the channel, but I'd do it fast, so. So I'd skip it, and I'd just say, well, I thought it was on tonight. And I said, I. It's not on. And I said, but Laverne and Shirley is. She said, well, if all I got to watch is them two silly gals, I'm going to bed. That's so I would get to watch Laverne and Shirley. So God forgive me for that. But as I grew older, I started really getting into Billy Graham. And after my grandmother passed away is when that happened. And Billy Graham sermons have brought me so much peace in my life. And I truly feel like that Billy Graham was as close to Christ as anyone that I could ever imagine.

[Nathan Apfel]

Do you know the story about the money with him in the briefcase?

[Todd Chrisley]

If you tell me.

[Nathan Apfel]

Or the bag. There's a beautiful story where, you know, back when Billy's rolling around, you didn't have credit cards, right. So you do cash offerings. And. And there's this awesome story. And they'd always count the money in the bag, right. And then they'd put it in a bag or. I. I can't remember what he had, but there was a photograph of him walking out with this big bag of money. And he immediately said, I will never

[Todd Chrisley]

touch the money again because of the appearance.

[Nathan Apfel]

Because of the appearance. And I don't want to be associated with that. And I have so much respect for that because he goes, this is not what I'm called to do.

[Todd Chrisley]

And, Sid. That's what I loved about him. And so for me to. Well, just tell me what there is to know about Samaritan's Purse, because Franklin runs that now.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yep. Yeah, yeah. So I'll give. So that's a great story about Billy. There's another story where church becomes about numbers. Campaigns like that, big performances become about numbers, which is what? Baptisms and salvation. So that's. That's pretty much the bedrock of what a church. When I say we leading people to Christ. Exactly. So they thought of these things called the altar calls, you know, and these. This isn't. This isn't a biblical concept. This is tradition. This is something that we developed in the last 150 years because, hey, we want people to feel. We want to create this emotion. So. And Billy was a part of this. I don't know if it was his exact. I don't know if he knew it. But staff, when they would do the altar calls at these big, you know, stadium events, people felt uncomfortable to walk down to the stage. So they had plans. They would put people in the audience, their staff, that would stand up and walk down to the stage to encourage others to get up and do it.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

That's manipulation. And so you.

[Todd Chrisley]

Is it manipulation or is it making the situation more welcoming for someone to. That may deal with social anxiety? That. That would be a. That would be a prompt to. Okay, I feel safer now with another.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, you're lying to the. That individual at the bedrock of it. You're. You're. You're faking.

[Todd Chrisley]

You're faking salvations because you're saying that it shouldn't take a third party to get up before you move because the spirit should have moved.

[Nathan Apfel]

My salvation is between Christ and myself. Okay, so. So what I mean, by that is we start. We start.

[Todd Chrisley]

Probably gonna give them a pass on that one. Okay.

[Nathan Apfel]

I just wanted to say this is where the model starts shifting. Right. We start building things.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And do you know about Port Allsworth, Alaska?

[Todd Chrisley]

No.

[Nathan Apfel]

Okay, so this is my rub with Samaritan's Purse. They do great work overseas, right? They spend about 60 to 100 million a year doing amazing work. What happens with the rest? And in the last four years, they've doubled their net assets. So Samaritan's Purse is starting to look more like the Mormon church they're acquiring.

[Todd Chrisley]

Franklin, you better be listening to this.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, Franklin, I would love to talk with you. You have 130 million in private aircraft. You're building comforts. And we went up to Port Allsworth. It's in season one, because they have this great retreat for veterans. My brother's a veteran. My best friend's a veteran. I have a massive respect for our armed forces.

[Todd Chrisley]

So do I.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so they've built this retreat for husband and wives to come up and reinvigorate their relationship, rekindle with God. I'm all for that kind of. Kind of outreach. Samaritan's Purse is based in North Carolina. There's great fishing in North Carolina. Franklin Graham. I'm going to. I can't remember the dates now. Late 90s, bought a property on Port Alsworth in Lake Clark. You're talking about one of the most remote places in America. No, no. Commercial jets fly. You have to take float planes in or private jets to land on your little dirt Runway. And I've, like. I'm very well versed in this. This spot. And I've been to Alaska multiple times, and so I know. I know how remote and rugged it is. So Franklin bought a property. A couple years later, Samaritan's Purse bought this little property next to him, this lakefront property. Well, flash forward. And now they've built this amazing outreach program. Mike Pence went there, but no one knows the cost of this operation. And so you've built this fishing retreat in the most remote place in the US That. And no one even knows the cost to get a couple up there. And so Samaritan's Purses had to buy private planes to get them in. And it's. I would argue Franklin loves Alaska. I love Alaska. Would I put a nonprofit up there? No, I would be more cost effective with my donor dollars. I'd say, hey, we could do that in North Carolina. We could do that anywhere in the.

[Todd Chrisley]

So you're saying that he put it there because his property is there.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yes.

[Todd Chrisley]

And he loves and. And it serves him from a personal.

[Nathan Apfel]

And it's a write off at that point. And so what I mean is we. We start taking something with good intentions, like what Billy built. And I firmly believe he built Samaritan or he didn't build Samaritan's purse. Sorry, what? What? Frank? What Billy built was beautiful, but Franklin has taken the name of his dad and just slowly built and built, built. But now they've shifted it to where it's looking more like the Mormon Church. You're doubling your net assets every couple years. You're invested in the stock market. And at what point do we lose sight of the original mission?

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And that's my struggle with Franklin Graham and Samaritan's purse. And now Edwards primed to take it, take it over. And Edward seems like a great guy. I don't know him personally, but another great example is I. And this is not in the show, but I grew up. I didn't grow up. Sorry. I spent six years on Maui, lived in Maui, know the firefighters there. I'm a big surfer, so I love Maui. The Lahaina fires were horrific. Right. Two of my good friends are firefighters at the airport. And as Lahaina was burning, Samaritan's purse took one of their. Their massive cargo planes from North Carolina and flew over, landed in, at the airport in Kahului, and they offloaded water and a couple pallets of other things. And the first person off the plane was the staff photographer. And then Edward Graham. And it was a photo op. We're here, guys. But you spent how many thousands of dollars, Tens of thousands in fuel just for that photo op, dude. Like, just. There's so many good organizations on the ground in Maui that you could have been like, hey, go to Costco, buy it out.

[Todd Chrisley]

Samaritan purse will give you the money. We'll give you the money.

[Nathan Apfel]

Exactly. But it's all about. And same thing in. In Alaska. Like, I was there, I. I was standing there waving flags as these veterans got off. A lot of them injured, you know, missing legs. And I get a massive respect for that. But the first person off that plane, that private plane, was their photographer. And I'm in. I'm in the film industry. I get it. But it's like you guys have built this, this marketing asset similar to the LDS Church. We give a billion dollars away, but that's the carrot you dangle to raise hundreds of millions. Samaritan's purse and billions. The LDS Church, Right? So you dangle the carrot and then over here is your shiny idol.

[Todd Chrisley]

And Franklin, we got to do better.

[Nathan Apfel]

I, I agree. And oh, here's the kicker though. You're going to love this. Samaritan's purse files a 990. Guess what's not on the 990? That whole operation in Alaska. It's not even line itemized. So he's buried it in some other line item and it's like, dude, your donors don't even know that really exists. What are you doing? That's the kicker.

[Todd Chrisley]

So how much money does Samaritan's purse bring in a year?

[Nathan Apfel]

They do the shoebox drive, so it throws it off, but their assets, that's. I believe we're in the, in the billions. Now, when Christ says, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, render to God the things that are God's. And then in Romans, Paul talks about it like, pay your taxes, be a part. Like, don't try to dodge this stuff. And because it's such low hanging fruit. Why do churches get this exemption? Why do the non pro, why do nonprofits get this exemption? And this is a crucial element for what the government did in 1913 when they defined the nonprofit sector. These organizations were the ones building social capital in their local communities. The government couldn't do it. So the churches and then, and then the Salvation army, which is the bedrock of religious organizations in the U.S. but churches and non profits help the needy in their local community. Most of them aren't doing that anymore. And so why do you get this exemption? You're building brands like, like Stephen Furtick, Mormon Church. Like a penny on the dollar that is given to you even goes to like impact for the needy in your community. So the whole model is just corrupted. And so we're here to bring reform and we're bringing reform at the federal level. Like we are. We are, we were a part, a small part of a bill that just, that's going to be on Trump's desk next month. We're here to, to legally reform the, the nonprofit sector.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, I think that that's a good thing because I don't believe that any church should be worth a trillion dollars. And then members of their congregation being hungry or being abused, being homeless, and not even just members of their congregation, just your fellow man. If you're sitting on that kind of money, then the Bible's very clear not to store up your goods. You know that you are to, if your brother's hungry, you're to feed him, if he's, if he's homeless, you're, you know, if he's naked, you're to clothe him.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, and I'll give you their argument. They'll, they'll say, well, you know, God gave Joseph a vision in for the famine that was coming, and so he stored up grain and Egypt survived because of it. And that's what the Mormon Church will say. And it's like, okay, well, that was a seven year famine. You've got money indefinitely. No, you, you got money in perpetuity. Right? And so like, what are you doing? So even their own arguments fail when you put it under a microscope. And so it is idolatry in its purest form.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so I'm gonna go back to the positive side of faith and generosity. Christians give enough to solve, literally stop gap and solve the top 23 global national social issues, which would go global. The Christian church can do it. We don't need the federal government to do it. We don't even need the state government to do it.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And a great example is child sexual abuse, which is the first episode in season two. State ICACs, which are not. There's 61 ICACs in the US which is Internet Crimes against Children task forces. These are like the leading men and women that are seeing the most horrific abuse to children. But they're, they're the front lines to protect our children. The, the, the, the war on drugs on the border gets about 40 billion a year. The national ICACs. So all 61 of these organizations gets $30 million from the Department of Justice.

[Todd Chrisley]

But we're giving how much?

[Nathan Apfel]

40 billion of the war on drugs, 30 million nationally to our state ICACs. That's less than 500 grand for our frontline workers. And so this is what's. I'm from Southern California.

[Todd Chrisley]

That shows you how our country just does not prioritize the youth.

[Nathan Apfel]

Well, it doesn't prioritize the people anymore. I'm a man of the people. So we are here for the people, and the people have the power. And that's what Christ's message was too. The body of Christ is this organism, this moving, brilliant organism that supports and uplifts the hurting and the wealthy end up going, you know what? No, I have more than enough to help. And, and that was the beauty of this organism. Christ said, there's no good teacher but one, my father. And so everybody was on the same playing field. But what do we do? Humans, human. And we build institutions and hierarchies and monarchies And I think our ego. Yeah, I think our founding fathers were. Were brilliant in regards to this idea of servant leadership. The Bible speaks on servant leadership. But when I look at institutions in the US from government to religion, the model's diseased. And you talked about this on a podcast that I listened to about reform and systems need to reform, because if systems don't reform, they naturally corrupt.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so. But the leadership in both religious organizations and in politics do not want reform.

[Todd Chrisley]

No. And you know, listen, when you talk about the reform, it's just like with the Bureau of Prison, William Marshall, who is the director of the Bureau of Prisons now, who's doing an amazing job, he has reformed. In his year that he's been there, he has changed. It's. I believe it's 38 or 39 policies. There's 300 and something policies. His goal is to literally change all of them before his time is up. But in those 38 policies that he has changed, they had never been changed in 164,000 days.

[Nathan Apfel]

Wow. And so what happens. Those systems naturally corrupt without restaurant.

[Todd Chrisley]

And that's what's happened with the Bureau of Prisons.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And it's happened with our churches, state governments, the federal governments. Exactly that. That's. So are you a big part of that?

[Todd Chrisley]

Yes.

[Nathan Apfel]

Season two, an episode is on prisons. So I'd love to come back. Come back.

[Todd Chrisley]

Let's talk about that.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. Because same thing. Like, you know, people can come out of those totally revitalized and refreshed and just like out of homelessness, just like out of sexual abuse. You know, it's, it's. We are just not here for the people anymore.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so how do we get America back to the people?

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, I mean, you know, I would love for. I would love for churches to be more involved in the prisons. You know, the scripture tells you, don't leave the prisoners behind, and yet you don't have that. You don't have that.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. Well, so going back to those state ICACs. Right. The Christian church could 10x the funding to state ICACs and it wouldn't even. It'd be a blip on the gen, on the generosity, giving. You couldn't even register it.

[Todd Chrisley]

Are we not funding that for fear of what is going to be exposed?

[Nathan Apfel]

I think it's twofold. One, it's just ignorance. People don't even know about the problem. You know, and so that's what we've learned a lot, is education is our main priority.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

Because you don't know what you don't know.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

So that's priority one, prior or issue one. Issue two is institutions will just, just like they say. Oh, if we release the Epstein files, you know, government would collapse. It probably would.

[Todd Chrisley]

If that happens, this, so be it. There's a consequence for everything you do.

[Nathan Apfel]

So if this information really comes out, and it's going to come out in this first episode, major denominations will collapse. The LDS Church being one of them. We have so much cover up of

[Todd Chrisley]

ritualistic sexual abuse confession.

[Nathan Apfel]

What'd you say?

[Todd Chrisley]

Come to Chrisley Confessions and do that?

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, it's. We have judges, we have temple presidents, we have ward bishops covering up ritualistic abuse. Satanic, ritualistic.

[Todd Chrisley]

I want you to expose that right here.

[Nathan Apfel]

Can I come back for that? Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

We need the episode right here on this podcast. I want you to come and expose one once this hits.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

To expand it, to expand the audience.

[Nathan Apfel]

I would love to. And this is, this is the biggest threat to the future of America in our. Like, I'm a father. It's what it's becoming a father was God saying, okay, it's like, this is your gift. Protect her. And yeah, I am obsessed with protecting the youth. Obsessed with protecting our youth. And so this is priority one to get America back to the. The beautiful nation that it was meant to be.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

But yeah, major denominations, major churches will fall, major pastors will fall because of what we're exposing.

[Todd Chrisley]

As they should. Because let me tell you something. You put your hands on a child, I believe there's a special place in hell for you. Hopefully right beside the furnace.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yep. Yeah. And they will. And Christ talks about it's better to wrap a millstone around your neck and jump off a boat. And so here's the kicker. It's. And there's a big shout out to your audience if you are a victim or a survivor of that. It's your strength that's going to change all this. And there's been a status quo of silence and a lot of times legal. So a lot of these churches are using NDAs to silence victims. And so we're a small part of brilliant work being done to remove that Legal. Legal, you know, gag.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And it's the survivors that are coming forward that are going to change the game on this. And that's what's so cool.

[Todd Chrisley]

I say, you know all the time that every survivor for every survivor is an abuser's biggest nightmare.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And so that's who we're like. I'm so proud of the Men and women that have come forward. And some were abused at three years old, some were abused at 17. Some were abused their whole life. But it's their bravery and their spine for justice that's going to change. It gives me goosebumps talking about them because they're so brave. And so if you're out there and you're a survivor, vocalize your. Vocalize what's happened, because it's. It's you who are going to be the change in all of this.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, you know, it is a. That is a topic that is very close to me because I am a survivor. That did happen to me as a child by a dermatologist that my mother took us to when we were children. And I did not ever talk about it until after I was married to Julie and had my children. And then one day, it just overwhelmed me, and I felt the need to tell her because I'd never told anyone. And I ended up filing a lawsuit. And it's out there. I filed it under a John Doe, which is what the attorney did, and it was against a doctor Richard H. Crooks, who was a dermatologist in Greenville, South Carolina. And I sued him, and he was convicted, or he entered a nolo contender plate, had to surrender his medical license and acknowledged what he did.

[Nathan Apfel]

Wow.

[Todd Chrisley]

But over the course of that, when the prosecutor there in Greenville, South Carolina looked at the case, the prosecutor went to my attorney and said, I can't prosecute this case. I've got to remove myself from it. And they asked him why? And he said, because I'm a victim of that same doctor.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Todd Chrisley]

And he had volunteered at the Boys Home of South Carolina and had molested. No one knows how many of those young kids that he molested. But it took a long time to get the courage to talk about that. And then I remember. I remember the hurt that my mother had and that my dad. The anger that he had. But shame is like cancer. The more you feed it, the more it grows. And when people take accountability of their life and their story and their narrative, every story is different. What someone has to go through is different. How someone processes it is differently. But he was an individual that was a person of trust. He was a doctor. I remember growing up, my mom used to say, you trust doctors, police, the firemen and your teachers. Those are people that you trust. Well, if you look across the news every day, it's a doctor that has molested a child. It's a police officer that has committed a crime like that, or a fire Everything that she told me to trust in, all of those careers have now been tarnished by sexual deviants that had been a party to them. So I don't tell my kids to trust anyone. I tell my kids to trust God and ask for God to give you proper discernment. And I said. And I say it, I said, listen, first of all, if you're dealing with my kids is not going to be with a man, period. And especially one that ain't never been married, because I think it's sketchy as hell if you're 50 years on you and you ain't been stupid before that. So I'm not going to have that. I don't have that around my kids. I've been very protective of them. And now you know why I've been so protective? Because I was determined that it was not going to happen to my children what had happened to me. And, you know, there were people in our church that. It came out years later that was accused of sexual assaulting his grandchildren and went to prison for that. So it does happen. And it was happening. It's been happening all these years, but people were so much better at it then. And shaming you and you in the church, knowing that what's happened to you is wrong, you're so ashamed, you don't want it to come out.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, well. And this is a big. When you look at. And this is going to be a broad brush statement, but when I look at churches, and I go to all flavors of churches in America, I've probably been to 2000 at this point, whether that be Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Charismatic.

[Todd Chrisley]

I just.

[Nathan Apfel]

I love going to churches because I call it the kaleidoscope of Christianity. You have your shepherds on stage, and then you have your sheep, so to speak, in the pews. And I can't stand that analogy, because there's only one shepherd.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's right.

[Nathan Apfel]

Scripturally, that's right. But we've placed the. The. The ethos of Christ on the shepherds on stage.

[Todd Chrisley]

And they're not the chosen one.

[Nathan Apfel]

They're not even Joel.

[Todd Chrisley]

That's right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And so.

[Todd Chrisley]

But why you got to come for my friend?

[Nathan Apfel]

No, I'm not. I'm just like. I'm just saying, even Joel, he's not the chosen one. We're not.

[Todd Chrisley]

And he will tell you that.

[Nathan Apfel]

I know he will. That's why I'm like. That's why I said, Stephen Furtick might think a little different, but because everybody has to stand up when Stephen walks

[Todd Chrisley]

into a room, well, that's ego.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah. And, and then you can't call him Stephen, you have to call him pastor. And.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, maybe he's looking for confirmation for that.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yes, but. So the reason why I'm bringing up this analogy of shepherd and sheep is the institution has created, and it's no fault of anybody's. It's no fault of any pastor. The 14 point checklist, which was created in the 50s, is what's created our institutional churches today. And that's the mosques look exactly like the Christian churches now, just different, different skins on the outside. But so what it's done is it's put the true power of the body of Christ into the pews and said, you sit there and we're going to entertain you from the stage. And just through precedent over decades, we've turned this active body of Christ into individuals that just want to be, that are ready to be entertained. I'm going to tuck my child into childcare. I'm going to grab a coffee and donut. I'm going to sing some beautiful songs.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And I'm going to listen to an inspiring message in leave.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And we've just kneecapped the power of the body of Christ.

[Todd Chrisley]

Right.

[Nathan Apfel]

And I, I said this on another podcast, Christianity is dangerous. True Christianity is dangerous to power structures.

[Todd Chrisley]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Apfel]

Look what it did to Rome. And in a couple hundred years, it transformed the greatest superpower of its time.

[Todd Chrisley]

Well, you know, we're now having a resurgence in faith with the younger generation coming back to the scripture and, you know, coming back to worshiping. And I'm grateful for that. But if we're not careful, it's. It's not going to be the blessing that we're all sitting here thinking that it is.

[Nathan Apfel]

Dude, you nailed bullseye.

[Todd Chrisley]

Because, you know, you have to look at it and just say, by the grace of God go you and I. And for so many decades now, it's been by the grace of God and I and me. And faith cannot be a me service. Faith has to be a we service. And you can't live in fear and then claim faith. So, you know, I believe that there's so many false prophets that are walking around every day. I don't listen to them. You know, I know what I know based on what I grew up with. I know right from wrong. I know that my Lord is my Savior. I know that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I know when I have sinned and I have sought, I have sought forgiveness for that. But I also believe that it is on us, this generation to bring the younger generation in, but in the right way, because the Bible is very clear on what we should be doing. And as my mother has said many times, if you believe one part of it, you got to believe all of it. You know, this is not some lottery where you can just pick and choose what you want to believe. You either believe in the Bible in its entirety or you don't. I choose to believe. And, you know, if I spend my entire life worshiping God and I die and he does not exist, I've lost nothing. But if I die and spend my whole life shunning him and I die and he's standing there, then I've lost everything. So, you know, I thank you for coming on today, but this is not our last podcast.

[Nathan Apfel]

Yeah, thank you.

[Todd Chrisley]

Thank you. As much as I fought against trying to get get it in here and asking Lake and when is this going to happen? Do I have time to do this? And Catherine, like I said, she was so great about continuing to push things to me, but now I'm kind of. I've gone down that dark hole.

[Nathan Apfel]

Once you go down the rabbit hole, it's hard.

[Todd Chrisley]

Yes. It's hard to go back. So I want to follow. I mean, not that because I'm Southern Baptist, I'm not. I'm turning a blind eye to what the Southern Baptist do because I know that we've got some not attractive people there too, but we don't have a trillion dollar empire either. So I am going to be focusing on the Mormons. So when can you come back?

[Nathan Apfel]

Episode one of season two drops in June, so I'd love to come back and we can talk all things ritualistic, abuse, saving children, protecting.

[Todd Chrisley]

We're going to drop names.

[Nathan Apfel]

Oh, I'll drop names.

[Todd Chrisley]

Okay.

[Nathan Apfel]

I have manila folders of faces and names.

[Todd Chrisley]

I love that. You know what maybe we can do on Chris the Confessions, what can't be done in D.C. with the Epstein piles.

[Nathan Apfel]

Let's. I would love to do that. Yeah.

[Todd Chrisley]

So let's do that here.

[Nathan Apfel]

Awesome, Todd. Well, thank you for having me.

[Todd Chrisley]

God bless you, brother.

[Nathan Apfel]

God bless you.

[Todd Chrisley]

Thank you. Until then, next week,

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