Nathan Jones (2:22)

end times in the Last episode. I thought, Todd, you brought up a great point that how in the end times the scoffers would deny three things. The creation, the flood, and the return of Jesus Christ. Why do we seem to have so many scoffers in these last days? And is that a sign of the end times?

Todd Hampson (2:37)

Yeah, I mean, based on that passage from Peter, it seems that those are indicators of that. And it's funny that those are the three things that are attacked looking at Genesis with creation and the Flood. I mean, anybody who believes in evolution doesn't believe there was a worldwide cataclysm. So they don't even look at that as something that impacts the science they claim to study. So you necessarily have to understand the flood to understand the science related to creation. And of course, above all else, we just take God's word as authoritative and inerrant. So he says when it happened and how it happened and we just believe that. And then as I mentioned last week when I met with you two, just Satan would like nothing better than to get people to be fuzzy on their origins or their destiny. You know, if you talk to an adopted child or something like that, or anybody really, you always want to know what were the circumstances surrounding your beginning? Why are things the way they are? All those things are answered for us in the first three chapters of Genesis, which many in the church now are seeing as allegory and legend and that kind of thing. And the same thing with the end. We got to know how it ends, where we're going. What some terminology Jeff and I have been using a lot lately. What is your future hope? What's anchoring you to the future? If you don't, if you don't have future hope, then you're going to lose objectivity, you're going to lose your bearings, and even as believers you're going to be fuzzy on many things. So I think those things are primary collisions of spiritual warfare and end time conditions.

Tim LaHaye (4:10)

That's a great gospel centered question. It reminds me of Carl Broge. I've been out with him several times. He always gets to the crux of the matter by ask whether it is a wait staff or anybody he interacts with. What is your eternal destiny? And he makes them stop and consider. And so it gives an opportunity to share the gospel. Well fellows, we have such great appreciation for your joint discernment, your ability to connect the prophetic dots. After all, you are the prophecy prose. So we want to fire a few questions at you in sort of a lightning round. Have the two of you experienced some of the kind of scoffing that we are talking about and what Peter warned would happen in the end days.

Jeff Kinley (4:44)

Oh, absolutely. It's the number one hate email that I get is the scoffing about the end times, about Bible prophecy, particularly about the Rapture. I also get regular mail about it as well, where people just feel called to rebuke me for believing in the Rapture. And then also is at a fairly large church in the south preaching on the Rapture, and a man stood up and began screaming and yelling at me about the preacher of Rapture. So, yeah, I think that's. That's the pushback that we're getting. And again, it's not from people outside the church. It's from within the supposed body of Christ.

Todd Hampson (5:16)

And by the way, the guy that was yelling at Jeff about how the Rapture is a false doctrine, he did that while Jeff was talking about scoffers against the Rapture.

Tim LaHaye (5:26)

Perfect timing.

Todd Hampson (5:27)

He made his point. For him, it was the best sermon point ever.

Jeff Kinley (5:29)

Yeah, he was on cue.

Nathan Jones (5:31)

Yeah. I had this guy, after a sermon I was doing on the creation, come up to me and say, it's you young Earthers that are making us Christians who. And nobody will get the gospel if they think that, you know, we're messed up when it comes. Like, you know, Second Peter three right there, buddy. But what do we say, guys, about those people that scoff at the Rapture? That's probably the number one question Tim and I get all the time, is nobody asks us a question about the Rapture. They come with these zingers, these objections all the time. They call us escapists. How do you respond to that?

Jeff Kinley (5:58)

Well, I respond to the escapist clause by saying, well, of course it's an escape clause. I mean, that's exactly what the Rapture is. It's a deliverance. It's a rescue operation. I said the ark was an escape. Escape clause. The two angels in Sodom and Gomorrah were an escape clause. So it's an absolute escape clause, only it's one that God wrote, and he embedded it within scripture into his great prophetic narrative. So there are a lot of objections that people have towards the Rapture. That's the one I actually agree with. But the other. The objections they have are pretty much based upon hearsay, upon things that they've heard repeated over time. The whole Darby hoax and that type of thing. So a lot of objections people have against the Rapture, you can answer them if they are willing to listen.

Tim LaHaye (6:41)

Yeah. If sometimes they would like to claim that we who believe in an imminent rapture are so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good, in other words. Well, you people who believe in that, you're not investing in the church, you're not trying to spread the good news of the gospel. Obviously we reject that because we are very determined to share the gospel and to be engaged all around the world and even next door with our neighbors. And how do you all respond to that particular criticism?

Todd Hampson (7:08)

Yeah, I think that's a weak argument. As a matter of fact, I think it's the opposite is true. I think the more truly heavenly minded you are, the more earthly good you're going to be. If you really believe that the rapture could happen at any moment and that we're seeing the stage being set for everything we see that's going to happen after the rapture, then those of us who are mature believers are going to want to leverage that to tell everybody and anybody about how to find Christ and how to, how to be part of this great escape and how to get out of here before all that stuff happens. So in my personal experience and what I've seen, that doesn't hold water. I think it's a weak argument, but I think the exact opposite is true for those who truly believe what God says.

Tim LaHaye (7:46)

Yeah, it's a straw man argument for sure.

Nathan Jones (7:48)

Definitely. Well, guys, over the last few years we've, especially since October 7th, the dramatic increase in anti Semitism in the world, even the political right. We've got commentators like Tucker Carlson, for instance, coming out against Israel's right to exist. The Evangelical church seems to be swaying away from supporting Israel and instead supporting the Palestinians. What do you think is behind the satanic deception?

Jeff Kinley (8:10)

Well, you know, after October 7th, there was over a 600% increase in anti Semitic posts and acts and attitudes really as people express those really across our country. And I think what we're seeing, as I alluded to at the beginning, is that in the book of Zechariah and In Revelation chapter 12, we have a really another attempted holocaust on the Jewish people. Now there's always been anti Semitism in the church and in the world, but now it's actually popular to be anti Jewish, anti Israel. And again, a lot of it is based on just the deception of Satan, the deception of the world media. But that's where it all begins. It is a satanic deception. Satan hates Israel. He hates the book that the Jews wrote called the Bible. He hates the fact that the Jews are back in the land and that they're gaining strength and that they just can't be wiped off the planet. And that's Satan's ultimate desire to kill all the Jews. So I think that we're seeing that Satanic Antichrist spirit in the world today. And again, just. It's another sign of the end times.

Todd Hampson (9:17)

I was going to say, if you think about it, you know, Pre World War II, there was anti Semitism, but it was really heightened in one particular area, you know, in Nazi Germany and some of the surrounding countries there that catered to it. But now it's global. I mean, it is an end times anti Semitism, and it's nonsensical. It doesn't make sense. The arguments that they're holding. It's just a pure evil, satanically driven hatred for the Jewish people.

Nathan Jones (9:42)

Well, they interview these guys on college campuses and they say, why do you hate Israel? Or can you explain from the river to the sea The. No, like denial. I mean, they have no concept of why they're believing it.

Tim LaHaye (9:53)

To me, there's a perfect analogy with what's happening in places like Minneapolis. And this is not just some organic set of protests that developed late in 2025 and has continued even into 2026. There is an organizational effort behind it. We've learned that there are massive dollars being poured into this unrest, this lawlessness, and oftentimes by outside agents. In other words, foreigners in other countries are those who are wanting to foment an agenda. So even the anti Semitism that supposedly just crops up on college campuses, I believe there is an organizational effort behind it. And the head organizer is none other than Satan because that's part of his end time agenda. But let's boil it down even more specific. There are professing Christians, as Nathan mentioned earlier, who are going wobbly to use the language of Margaret Thatcher in their support for Israel and even challenging the view that there is anything prophetically significant about the modern state of Israel. How do you guys respond to that?

Jeff Kinley (10:51)

Well, I think it all boils down to how you interpret the Bible. You begin with your interpretive method. You either take the Bible literally in its plain sense, or you have to symbolize and allegorize and spiritualize virtually all of it. Because there is so much of the Bible that is yet to be fulfilled. Yet. And so with prophecy, the Bible talks about Israel returning to the land. That should have been the slam dunk right there of the significance of Israel, but for a lot of people, they tend to continue to brush that off. And there's so many other prophecies in fact, the prophecies of Daniel and revelations in 1st, 2nd Thessalonians, they can't come true unless Israel is in the land and is occupying that land. So those people who deny those, those prophecies, they just want to write off whole sections of the Bible. And so my encouragement to them would just simply be, look, when the Bible prophesied Jesus coming the first time, you took it at face value. Talk about the prophecies he says are going to happen in the end times. And let's take those at face value as well. When you do that, you come to the conclusion that there is a prophetic significance for Israel in the last days. And certainly we ought to keep our eyes open because Israel is God's timepiece.

Tim LaHaye (11:57)

Amen.

Nathan Jones (11:57)

And that's a good question. To follow up, something you said earlier, Jeff, is that Satan hates the Jewish people and he wants them destroyed. What is the endgame for that? Why does he want the Jewish people destroyed?

Jeff Kinley (12:07)

I would say that, you know, when you look at Revelation, Jesus said that in Matthew 23, at the end of that chapter, he says, you won't see me again till you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Zechariah 14 talks about they'll look upon him whom they pierced. They'll mourn for him, as they mourn as an only son. And the idea is that the Jewish people are going to call on Messiah at the end of the age, just at the time when Jesus will return and destroy Antichrist and all of his forces that are trying to kill God and take over the world and continue to take over the world. And so that's when Romans 11:26 says, All Israel will be saved. So in essence, if there are Jews around, Satan can't rule. And so he has to get rid of all the Jews so the Messiah can't come back to rescue them and set up his kingdom on the earth.

Tim LaHaye (12:52)

So, Todd, to follow up with you, as Gentile Christians, why should we care about what happens to the House of Israel? We obviously do. But what would you say to someone who hasn't heard an argument for why it's so important to us?

Todd Hampson (13:04)

Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, it's biblical. I mean, people have to ask one key question. Are they going to be the authority over Scripture Scripture, or are they going to let the authority of Scripture authoritate or guide or direct how they think about the Jewish people? If script, if you listen to Scripture, it is plain as a crystal clear, you know, Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 17, all you know, show key aspects of this everlasting, unconditional covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham, including a land. You can't read the Old Testament and take it at face value and not come to the conclusion that God's eternal purposes are set on the Jewish people in Israel. And even with Jerusalem, those are very specific that you can't get away from. So I think people have to look at that as a, have to ask that question. What's going to be the authority? My thoughts or my system or Scripture itself. And then you come to the conclusion that we Gentile believers need to support Israel. They have the right to exist, they have the right to the land, and they're key to everything we read about that's going to take place with future prophecy. One argument I often hear is, well, most believers are secular, they're, they're godless, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, yeah, Scripture predicts they're going to be there in unbelief first. And that's when Paul in Romans 11 is talking. He's pointing to a future time when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then future tense, all Israel will be saved. So you simply can't get away from the plain sense reading of Scripture without twisting it, without pushing your own views on it. And if you let Scripture inform your heart for the Jewish people, you're going to want to stand with them and understand their biblical purpose in the end times.

Tim LaHaye (14:44)

Amen.

Nathan Jones (14:44)

Well, that's very well said. Well, guys, Tim and I got to go to the pre Trib conference last year and you weren't there. We missed you a lot. We interviewed about a dozen prophecy teachers. We asked them this question. Maybe you guys could give us brief answer each. Do you think that the Rapture which Todd wrote so wonderfully about will be happening in our lifetime?

Todd Hampson (15:01)

Yeah, I think we don't know. I mean, all the signs say that it could happen before this interview is over, but we also have to live with our feet firmly planted on the ground and preparing the next generation in case it doesn't happen in our lifetime. We're told that no man knows the day or the hour, but we're also told we can see the day approaching. Hebrews 10:25 and a few other verses, even some parables that Jesus shared that we should be occupying until he comes. So I think that's our impetus. That's the attitude that Paul had. That's what he taught the church at Thessalonica, that they need to be always ready for the Rapture. And always planning for the future and let God be God, and we just trust him with all of that.

Jeff Kinley (15:41)

And I would just add that at no time in 2000 years have the signs of the last days been so front page and evident. And so that also with the rebirth of Israel, tells us that we're definitely living in the seasons, season of the Lord's return.

Todd Hampson (15:57)

And to quote Walvoord, who used to say, and many others, you know, if we're seeing the signs for the tribulation, that means the Rapture is that much closer. If we're, if we're here, and you guys have said this as well, if you're hearing the, if you're seeing the decorations for Christmas and it's not even Thanksgiving yet, then, you know, Thanksgiving is that much. That's that much closer. So we have all the reason to believe we're closer to the Rapture than anyone has ever been chronologically and stage

Tim LaHaye (16:20)

setting wise and stage setting. You know, we have been touching on some of the tough questions that you guys addressed in your wonderful book, Answering Tough Questions about the End Times. And we have that as a resource available here at Lamb and Lion Ministries. And we've already mentioned how prolific both of you are in your writing, your speaking, all the other projects. But you have another very exciting project that you have recently launched, and we want our viewers to learn a little bit more about that. So tell us more about the new full fledged Prophecy Prose Academy.

Jeff Kinley (16:48)

Well, thanks for asking. The Prophecy Prose Academy is a concept that Todd and I came up with based on the fact that when we would teach about prophecy and even theology, as we traveled around, we found out that most believers had never heard any of it. Most believers are woefully biblically illiterate and theologically inept, basically. And so we thought, well, how can we help, you know, kind of meet that need? So we developed a three year curriculum called the Prophecy Prose Academy where we just take systematic theology and just take believers through that a module at a time. And Todd can probably explain exactly how we do that a little bit better than I can.

Todd Hampson (17:28)

Yeah, we're really trying to bridge the gap between Sunday and seminary. You know, what a believer hears and learns on an average Sunday and even the Bible stud as they do, but especially when it comes to studying eschatology, a lot of people who are interested or realize the prophetic times that we're in don't always have the solid theological background that kind of serves as a foundation for everything you need to learn about eschatology. So we did we built a 3 year 12 module Systematic theology course. And you take it one at a time and you have to take them in order. And it's kind of like seminary light. You can do it on your own time. A new lecture comes out every week. You get a manual shipped to you. You can do the work. It takes about an hour and a half or two hours per week. But there's also recommended reading and other activities you can do if you want to take it to another level. So really our goal is to equip lay people to really have a firm, solid grasp on all things theological. The first module is bibliology, just the doctrines of the Bible and that's the foundation. And each module builds on the previous one. And the comment we get all the time is that I totally see how these modules build on each other and I can't believe I've never learned this before.

Nathan Jones (18:42)

Yeah, as a prophecy ministry, we kind of like to go to the end of the book in Revelation. But I love how you guys are building upon that. The very fact that, well, the second module, that they have to learn how to interpret the Bible first. I mean, we don't teach that a lot. You have to get to the year three before you get to all the Bible prophecy, which I think is a good part. But hey, Martyology, angelology, the study of sin, the study of the Holy Spirit. Man, this is deep. How long did it take for you guys to put all this together?

Jeff Kinley (19:06)

Well, it's a process really. I mean, it's based upon. I was a pastor for 35 years and had a lot of just theological writings put in place. And so Todd and I kind of come together on that and bring what we have to the table. And it's really exciting because when theology is presented and taught properly, it's never boring. In fact, what we're hearing from our students is this is the most stimulating Bible teaching I've ever gotten. It's getting me deeper into my Bible. The Bible's. I'm reading it in 3D now, just to be able to interact with God's Word and know more about God himself. And so the. Their intimacy with Christ, their knowledge of Jesus is just exploding during these courses. And so the feedback we're getting is just. It's just been phenomenal. So we're very grateful for this opportunity.

Todd Hampson (19:54)

And another really key feature that a lot of people are getting a lot out of is, you know, we know how important fellowship is and going through courses with other students. And obviously these students are from all over the Country. So we. As soon as you sign up for your first module, you have access to an online community where you interact with other believers. Many of the activities are activities that make you interact with other believers. So we're seeing friendships formed, we're seeing ministries being birthed, we're seeing people wrestle with theology with each other, exactly what we intended for it to do. It's the next best thing to being physically at a seminary. But you're remote and you're doing it on your own time. And it's not nearly as demanding as actually going to seminary.

Tim LaHaye (20:35)

I loved what you said, that this is designed for lay people. And sometimes the higher brow or deeper terminologies that you can hear at seminary, I've been to some of those classes, can be off putting to some laypeople and. But it is important, as you indicated already, that you've laid a foundation. Five years ago, when Nathan and I were trying to envision how to relaunch even Christ in prophecy, we decided to go back to the Old Testament to really build a solid foundation before we dove into Revelation, because we think it's very important to have all that Old Testament foundation. But y' all have taken it one step further. I'm actually reminded of a great John Wayne scene from the 1953 movie Hondo where he picks up a boy and throws him into the creek to teach him how to swim. And you guys are basically saying, hey, come swim with us and let's dive into the deep end. Because there's no better way to learn how to really break down some of these thoughts and have that foundation, unless you just dive right in. So what would you say to someone who might feel hesitant? And what is the kind of person that you're looking for who would be a good fit for this kind of instruction?

Jeff Kinley (21:38)

Well, great question number one. I remember that film and I remember that scene. It was a great scene, that movie. Yeah. I mean, we ask people to jump in. We're not going to let anybody drown. We're not going to take you to the deep end of the pool and let you go. We're actually going to take a walk out there with you and show you the depths of God's word and of theology. So we're really looking for anyone who wants to take their walk with God, their knowledge of theology and their knowledge of the Scriptures to the next level. It is a next level experience. And so I think, you know, I read a book one time as a young Christian, and the opening words of the book were simply, if you're if you're any kind of disciple at all, you want to be a better disciple. And that really struck with me. You know, it stuck with me because I am looking for people, and Todd and I are looking for people for the academy who want to be a better believer, who want to know God better. So again, it's just investing. It's a spiritual investment into yourself so that you can have something more to share with not only your family and friends, but also the world as well.

Nathan Jones (22:35)

I really appreciate that, guys, because, I mean, you've seen it, we've seen it, that the trend in Bible prophecy is going more sensationalist. The fact is that even recently, Tim and I are invited to a conference. When they looked over what we'd be preaching on, they're like, well, that's not sensational enough. And we were uninvited. So, you know, you see, that's a trend there. So how then can we keep Christians to stay in the Bible and what the Bible says about prophecy and stop chasing after Nephilims and UFOs and things like that?

Todd Hampson (23:01)

Nathan, you hit the nail on the head. And that's why eschatology is year three, because we want to drive those pylons down deep into the word of God so that they're protected. Because that's what breaks our heart, is when we see people that are swayed by all of this and, you know, pulled in different directions. And we say, you don't need the sideshows at the circus. The stuff in the circus is cool enough. You can just go for the good stuff, go for what you're intended to go for. And that's what we're trying to do, is just ground them in scripture. I mean, 2,000 years of church history and doctrine being developed, and that will protect you to show people systematically how you can build one layer on another. And it's not like a weird, mysterious, nebulous understanding of scripture. It is very logical and theological. And each module builds on the previous one. And the greatest joy that Jeff and I get is seeing students make comments like what I said earlier, like, I've never seen this before. I never thought about this before. You know, we have. We have one. One of the modules. The third module is Theology Proper, where you learn all about the Trinity and the. And all about the different persons in the Godhead. And people are wrestling with stuff and studying things that they've maybe heard on the periphery but have never studied in depth before. And all of that builds a firm foundation for them to understand eschatology. Thoroughly biblically, it does.

Jeff Kinley (24:23)

It's all a part of being rooted and grounded in the faith, and that's what's important. Chasing some of these shiny objects that are out there sort of in the, in the prophecy universe to me is just a little bit of a waste of time because there's so much speculation that's associated with. So basically, you know, Todd and I are actually afraid to speculate too much because we don't want to go outside the, the word of God. We want to know what does the Bible say, and that's what we want to tell people. Now there's a lot that the Bible says about the end times and about prophecy. So we're never going to run out of material. Okay, but we just want to be careful not to say things that God doesn't say and not to mislead or cause a misunderstanding among believers. We want them to be as grounded as we are.

Tim LaHaye (25:09)

I had a friend one time who was talking about a study that they were doing in another prophecy related effort and they said they were spending weeks and weeks and weeks trying to figure out who the Antichrist was. And I said, really? You're going to spend weeks and weeks and weeks chasing after something you can't know until the tribulation is here? Well, we just think it's fascinating. And I said, well, yeah, maybe so, but that's not really where the focus is. I'm so glad that you guys have stayed grounded. We try to always be grounded in the word of God and it is a gospel centered message, even when we proclaim that Jesus is coming soon. So with that in mind, I want to return to the false accusation that those of us looking forward to the Rapture are unengaged in proclaiming the gospel and making disciples. You guys, the prophecy pros have embarked on a project with a three year timeline, even though we hope the Rapture happens today. A three year timeline to help people deepen their understanding of God's Word and grow in their ability to impact others. For the kingdom of God.

Todd Hampson (26:09)

I would like nothing more than to be surprised by the Rapture when we're in the middle of this thing. But we both have the conviction that we're to keep marching forward and occupying until he comes comes.

Jeff Kinley (26:19)

Absolutely. And listen, anybody out there who's interested in wanting to know more, they just go to prophecyproseacademy.com There's a couple of short videos there that kind of explain the process and seeing if it's the right fit for you.

Tim LaHaye (26:30)

Well, obviously we were going to ask you that question. I'm glad you mentioned it. We will have that on the bottom of the screen. Fellows, I want to thank you both for joining us today. It is always a joy whether we have to be remote in our conversation or whether we can be conducted face to face. But as we co labor for our soon returning King, I both of us, all of us here at Lamb and Lion Ministries are very grateful for your ministry and for your friendship.

Jeff Kinley (26:54)

Likewise my friends. Thank you so much for all that you do.

Todd Hampson (26:57)

Yeah, we're co laboring with you and serving him together and we can't thank you enough for the partnership.

Tim LaHaye (27:01)

Well folks, every week we endeavor to edify the saints, warn the lost, and glorify the Lord. We do that by focusing on our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ In

Nathan Jones (27:10)

Prophecy over the years, God has raised up a host of prophetic voices to proclaim the message that yes, Jesus is coming soon. Some of the more prominent voices who shared that good news back in the 20th century have gone home to be with the lord, like Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsay.

Tim LaHaye (27:25)

But those men followed in the footsteps of yet others who took God at His word and loved the promise of his coming. Some of them have gone to be home with the Lord and will receive a crown of righteousness in due time, but they have passed the baton to others who are still faithfully proclaiming that glorious message.

Nathan Jones (27:40)

And as Tim said before, we are very grateful for Jeff Kinley and Todd Hampson and for the insights from God's prophetic Word that they share as the prophecy prose. More than that, we are eternally grateful to the Lord Himself for revealing his plan for the ages to us through His Word.

Tim LaHaye (27:55)

We pray that our dialogue today has been an encouragement to you and piqued your interest in God's prophetic word. Every time you read your Bible, ask the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of your heart and prayerfully consider signing up for the Prophecy Pros Academy. I can assure you that you will be blessed if you do. Until next week or until Christ calls us to meet him in the air, Godspeed.