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- [00:04]
Nathan Jones
Greetings in the name of Jesus, our blessed hope and welcome to another episode of Christ in Prophecy. We're so glad you've joined us. For those who are visiting us here at Lamb and Lion Ministries for the first time, welcome. And for those who tune in regularly, we so appreciate you coming along with us on this journey of discovering our soon returning king.
- [00:22]
Tim Moore
In this episode, we're going to address the fate of Islam in light of Bible prophecy. Will peace ever come to the Middle East? Or is that just the pipe dream of ambitious politicians? Will Islam conquer the world or are we reaching its final hour? To answer these questions, Tim and I travel to the annual Pre Trib Study Group conference held every December in the Dallas, Texas area. You won't find another large gathering of experts in the study of Bible prophecy than at the Pre Trib Conference. There, the professors of prophecy meet to share their research into the study of eschatology, meaning last day events. We all rejoice together in our shared love for the good news and our hope in the soon return of our Savior Jesus Christ.
- [01:02]
Nathan Jones
The first question we asked our expert panel was, will there be peace in the Middle East? And if so, how do we get there? Longtime watchers of Christ in Prophecy will recognize our old friend Don Perkins of According to Prophecy Ministries. A new acquaintance whom we've been glad to get to know is Joe Hawkins of Prophecy Reconciliation. He, along with Pete Garcia of Revelation 3:10, who will speak at our annual conference in June, addressed the question through the lens of current political developments, which include the Abraham Accords and President Trump's new Board of Peace.
- [01:35]
Don Perkins
Well, there won't be peace right now. I do believe that the only time Israel will experience a real lasting peace is the fulfillment of Isaiah 9, 6, 7. That's when Christ will literally sit on the throne of his Father David. In the millennial kingdom, we are commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Psalm 122:6. But Israel will not experience that lasting peace. And I'll say this as well. No president, prime minister, nation will get the glory of stabilizing that region. I don't care what kind of peace plan you come together, Abrahamic accord, it doesn't matter. I have a whole list of presidents that have tried to stabilize the region and all it was was a fight.
- [02:16]
Nathan Jones
Appreciate you putting it that way. They will not get the glory because the only person who will get the glory for bringing peace to Israel is Jesus Christ and he will not share his glory with anyone. That's a good point.
- [02:26]
Don Perkins
When you pray, I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, you are literally praying for the millennial kingdom. That's the only time it's going to happen. But I do believe, as long as we're here in the church, because I do believe the church has to be out of the way in order for God to focus that area while we're here, there won't be a real stabilizing. Now you have a temporary peace and different things like that.
- [02:45]
Nathan Jones
A ceasefire, I call them, between periods of conflict and really underlying, always spiritual battles ongoing.
- [02:52]
Tim Moore
It's the silence before the next war.
- [02:55]
Joe Hawkins
In today's world we definitely won't see peace in the Middle east as though they think that we're going to see it. Right? The everlasting peace that we've been hearing about on the news recently, that everlasting peace is not going to come on this side of the millennial kingdom. Now that peace that we do see in the millennial kingdom, that will come once that thousand year reign begins after the tribulation period. Once Christ comes at the second coming and once he comes at the second coming and establishes his kingdom in the millennial reign, that's when we'll see peace in the Middle East. But any peace that we see now is a false peace.
- [03:33]
Pete Garcia
Well, I don't think that's going to happen until the Lord returns. But I think right now we can see a lot of parallels between the post World War I. You know, if you go back to The Balfour Declaration, 1917, the British Empire at that time was the preeminent world empire. They were very Pro Zionist in 1917, but by the time you get to 1939 they're very anti Zionist. And then between 1917 and 1939 there was this slow gradual slide to appeasing the Arab world who were protesting and were violent. I think we're seeing a lot of those parallels with the government today trying to come up with all these kind of peace deals. Council of Peace, trying to placate all the power brokers there. Qatar, Doha, you know, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, uae.
- [04:23]
Nathan Jones
All because of oil and because of immigration. Now with more and more Muslims making their way to Western nations.
- [04:30]
Pete Garcia
Yeah, it's part of their long term plan to Islamicize the whole world.
- [04:35]
Tim Moore
One of my favorite authors, Lee Brainard of Soothkeep Friends, along with Mondo Gonzales of Prophecy Watchers and the renowned biblical archaeologist Randall Price of Word of the Bible Ministries, explored the peace prophesied in Ezekiel 38:11, a temporary peace Israel experienced before the invasion of Gog and Magog.
- [04:52]
Randall Price
The only peace that we're going to see before the Lord Jesus Christ comes down is the superficial peace that we see in Ezekiel 38 and 39 where Israel has dwelling in unwalled cities with the time of apparent peace. But this is going to be a superficial peace. It will be a deceptive peace because that same simmering anti Semitism will still be in the entire world.
- [05:14]
Mondo Gonzales
Well, Trump calls it. He's been using the phraseology of eternal peace not going to happen in the current time frame. We know that Jesus, of course, as the prince of peace will be the one that brings it. However, I would say that there's no doubt what I see happening in all the different things is depending on somebody's perspective of Ezekiel 38. So my perspective on where it's heading is Ezekiel 38 describes the people of Israel dwelling confidently batach and quietly. It doesn't say in peace, but it says quietly or at a time of somewhat carefreeness. And so that's on the agenda. That definitely has to be there before the Ezekiel 38 war happens. And so I think all this stuff with Saudi Arabia coming in and all the Abrahamic accords and all the extra inclusion that is setting the stage, I think for Ezekiel 38. So I think more, I think more in line that all these developments are building that atmosphere so that when that happens. But again, we know it's broken by the advancement of Gog and Magog.
- [06:24]
Tim Moore
So there will be a temporary peace, but not the total peace that Donald Trump.
- [06:27]
Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, definitely not eternal peace, not in the sense that. And of course every president has wanted to be the one that secured it, you know, and for their own reasons. But I just think this conflict is going to go right into the tribulation all the way through. And we know there's a lot of anti Semitism in the tribulation. We know that two thirds of the Jewish people perish. And again, they don't do that simply because everybody loves them.
- [06:49]
Josh Davis
I mean, the scriptures talk about before the battle of Gog and Magog, a type of peace that has to be understood because the term that's used there, Batak for a kind of security. So there could be a. I mean, Israel has had a sense of security all through its existence because it developed a military when it came back from the Holocaust and from Eastern Europe and said never again. You know, we're going to have protection for our people. So they've been successful in every war that was brought against them. So there's been a sense of security. And that's why people feel you know, there's a safe refuge in Israel. October 7th shook that a bit. But they've reassumed, you know, a good position. So if the idea of peace and security or security which is used in the passage for the near future, the invasion means like a military security because in Hebrew means the security guys, you know, that's right. So Bedtak has this idea that it's or it could be a perceived or imagined security. I mean Israel will be still in a divine discipline until we have the national repentance of Israel. So they will never have real security because part of that divine discipline has them in conflict with all of the neighbors who are against them. So you'll always have that. You'll never be at perfect peace. So I don't think Abraham accords will ever succeed. You know, I understand the gesture. They're always going to bring it back to the Palestinians.
- [08:29]
Nathan Jones
Josh Davis, the staff evangelist with Southwest Radio Ministries, along with Olivier Melnick of Shalom and Messiah Ministries, approached the question by pointing to Daniel 9, 27, which prophesies a peace covenant the Antichrist will confirm with Israel.
- [08:45]
Tim Moore
I think that it could be some peace in the Middle East. If you look at Ezekiel 38, it talks about Israel dwelling without their walls, a nation without borders. And some of the security may be lax. It seems like Israel is taken by surprise. Now I know people even who agree with the premillennialism pre tribulation rapture differ on the timing of Ezekiel 38:39. My personal belief is that it will happen towards the beginning of the tribulation, right after the rapture of the church. And so you know how all that looks like and there's going to be some semblance of peace. What will that look like? You know, that's a fascinating topic to consider. Will the Antichrist provide peace for Israel? Yes, you know, according to the covenant that's confirmed in Daniel chapter nine, there will be some semblance of peace that comes through the Antichrist. And that could be the precursor to what could kick start some of the Ezekiel 38, 39 almost a peace in
- [09:42]
Nathan Jones
our time, as Chamberlain said, or the peace treaty that Hitler signed with the Soviet Union before invading them. So sometimes peace with world who are deceptive is a fool's peace, but is a false peace, at least for a season.
- [09:57]
Mondo Gonzales
There will be true peace in the Middle east when Sar Shalom, the prince of peace returns. That's his name we find in Isaiah 9, 6, you know, the Prince of peace, Yeshua, the Messiah. Until then there will be semblance of peace, of false peace. I mean, the Antichrist is going to bring this peace for a little while, that people would think it's, it's peace, but it's not. He's going to break that and all hell will break loose, literally. So there will be peace in the Middle east, peace in the world when Jesus returns. Until then, it's, you know, giving land, taking land, ceasefire, it's all a joke. We know the Hamas does not want to disarm. They do not want to go away. They do not want. They want to rearm and be ready for the next October, October 7th. So I don't think that there will be peace until Jesus comes back.
- [10:50]
Tim Moore
And finally, here's what Pastor Carl Broge of Search the Scriptures, Johannes Vogel of the Bible center in Germany and Tom Hughes of Hope for Our Times had to answer. We here at Lamb and Lion Ministries are in full agreement with them that no true peace will come to the Middle east until the Prince of Peace returns to establish his millennial kingdom.
- [11:08]
Johannes Vogel
I don't think so. You know, clearly God's timepiece is the nation of Israel, and he has set his prophetic plan through that country. And what we see in the world today is clearly Satanic. It was in reference to the first coming. Whether it's, you know, Abel being murdered by Cain, whether it's, you know, the Nephilim cohabitating with the daughters of men, or it's Attalia trying to kill all the boys in the tribe of Judah, Haman, all the way till Herod comes. And we know from Revelation 12 that Satan was behind that. Plan A, so to speak, failed. Plan B is keep Messiah from ruling so Satan can continue to rule. And now that Israel's back in the land regathered, it's heating up. And there's no other human explanation for the hatred of the Jewish people except the evil one himself.
- [12:02]
Tim Moore
I think, no, there will not be peace in this area. It must be. The King of peace must come, otherwise it will not be peace in the Middle East. And it comes more and more also in Europe. The anti Semitic things. That is unbelievable, what you see at the moment. I think no peace will come at the moment and also in the future. Not a coming. It will be worst. More verse than that.
- [12:34]
Tom Hughes
Yes, there will, but. So you have two different dynamics that are going to take place. One of them is, we know from Ezekiel 38, 11 that there is coming a time after the people of Israel are drawn back to the mountains of Israel. The people who have been scattered so we know it's the Jews, the Diaspora, they're brought back. There will be peace and safety before the invasion of Ezekiel 38 happens. So we know that's going to happen. Israel's definitely not there. And we can also tell by that that we are not on the cusp of Ezekiel 38. In other words, it won't happen tomorrow. It's impossible because the safety that's used there in verse 11 could easily be applied to being kept safe by the IDF or whatever. We were just in Israel. I've always feel safe there. I've never felt as safe as I did this time. And I felt safe every way. Safer than I do in Los Angeles or even Texas for that matter. Yeah, I mean, and this time I think, because there's a heightened awareness from both Arab and Jew, look, let's be on our best behavior. But the term for peace, it comes from a Hebrew word that has an application of tranquility. And Israel has not been in a tranquil state since Solomon. And so when you look at it, you go there definitely. There's no way, even with Gaza, you still have Judea and Samaria. There are those problems that are there in the land.
- [14:06]
Announcer
Is Israel's war with Hamas prophetic? What motivates Islamic terrorists to murder Jews? Is Psalm 83 an actual prophecy about an end times war? Is Russia preparing for the Gog Magog invasion of Israel? Will nuclear weapons ever be used? And is there any hope of world peace? Arm yourself with the truth of what God's prophetic word says about the end times and make sure you're ready for Jesus return. Our Special offer, number 838, includes two of Dr. David Reagan's most popular books, Nine wars of the End Times and Islam and Christianity. Get your copies for a gift of $25 or more, and that's a $10 savings. Just call the number you see on the screen or order online@lamblion.com so many of your questions about Islam's role in the war end times will be answered by these two fantastic books.
- [14:54]
Nathan Jones
The second question we asked our expert panel was, what is the fate of Islam in light of Bible prophecy? Does the Bible prophesy Islam conquering the entire world and ushering in Sharia law on a global scale? Or will this violent ideology, which has brought so much suffering and death to billions over the centuries and sent millions to hell, be at last reaching its final hour? Well, this is what Don Perkins and Joe Hawkins had to say in light of Scripture.
- [15:22]
Don Perkins
Well, I'll be honest with you, I don't see Islam taking over the entire world now, even though they are making ground. We do know about political, not political, population, jihad throughout the world. I mean they are taking land and property. Countries are allowing them to buy property and build here in America. They barely Dallas, oh man, thank God for your governor and them shutting things down. But they have a silent agenda and they're making ground. But I do believe that they will be dealt with even when Antichrist come on the scene. You know, the Bible said Antichrist, he will worship no God but the God of munitions. It doesn't matter. I mean, Islam, we have a problem with Antichrist. They say Antichrist have a problem with Islam. And I do believe that, you know, whatever kind of ground they've gained, it's going to be short lived because the Antichrist would not allow any other religion other than the worship of him. You know, and so, I mean a lot of people have different ideas about that, but I just, I believe that Islam would not be a world conqueror. That's not how the scripture reads.
- [16:29]
Tim Moore
I read that by 2050 half the world population will be Muslims. At the rate they're going. Do you see in the Bible an Islamic takeover of the world or does the Lord have an end to Islam?
- [16:39]
Joe Hawkins
I definitely do not see an Islamic takeover of the world. I believe that there's going to become a point to where people will, especially here in America. I do think that we're going to see America become Islamized to an extent, right?
- [16:53]
Nathan Jones
Sections of it.
- [16:54]
Joe Hawkins
Yes, sections of it. But when we get ready, when we get taken out of here, rapture Islam, they're not going to fall in line with the Antichrist system, right? They're not going to fall in line with the worship of that system. So they themselves are going to cease to exist during that time. But on this side of the Rapture, they're certainly going to do their best to try to take over, take control. And that's what they do. That's what Islam does. It's a whole religion of control is really what it is.
- [17:26]
Tim Moore
While our last two prophecy experts saw the fate of Islam being at the bloody hands of the coming one world ruler, the Antichrist, our next few guests look to Islam's potential defeat in the coming war of Gog and Magog, followed by Islam's remnants being absorbed into the Babylonian, one world religion that will dominate the first half of the tribulation.
- [17:44]
Pete Garcia
And this is my opinion, how I read Ezekiel 38, 39, the GOG Magog war, I see that as pulling Muslims Both Sunni and Shia from all directions coming against Israel. And they're going to take advantage of a crisis led by gog. I think it's going to happen because of the Rapture. That will be a global crisis that will destabilize the US or take us out of the picture for a while. We won't be there to support Israel militarily or politically, economically or anywhere else. And I think they're going to take advantage of that and they're going to march against Israel. It will be like the Crusades, but in reverse. And they're going to get wiped out by God supernaturally. So I think at the end of that, Islam is going to have lost a lot of its militant power and a lot of its force and it's going to just be rolled up into whatever that final iteration of the final world religion.
- [18:34]
Randall Price
Well, what we're going to see in the future. And of course the Bible prophecy teachers are a little bit divided on whether Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and 39 are two distinct events. I tend to put them in as one event with the two different motives coming together in one big event. But you have this conglomeration of our confederation of the Russian led Juggernaut and the Arab nations come against Israel. And when the fire descends from heaven to bring judgment on the Gog and Magog Juggernaut, that is not only going to destroy that gathered army, the scriptures are very clear that the fire is also going to fall on those that dwell in Magog and those that dwell carelessly in the isles. So we can see basically the decimation of the two most powerful forces in the Middle east outside of America and her Western allies, which would be Russia and her allies and fundamentalist Islam. So I think this is going to leave a vacuum in the Middle east and North Africa and Europe that the revived Roman Empire will step into this vacuum. So I think that as a militant force, it's going to be largely erased.
- [19:50]
Tim Moore
Well, with all that destruction, you could say of Islam as a religion, the fact that Allah loses so badly to what is clearly divine, Yahweh, God. Do you see that being the end of Islam? How does Islam end according to Bible prophecy?
- [20:03]
Randall Price
Well, Islam is going to end with two distinct things. And you are really implying on this. First of all, it's going to largely be smashed by the fire that falls from heaven. The fundamentalist part, this is going to lead to, I think, to a lot of Muslims being awakened to the falsity of Islam and embracing the God of Israel, because this is the God of Israel that defended them. But then who's ever either not killed or converted is going to be molded or morphed into the one world whore religion. And then they're going to be face the same choice everybody faces. Because now you either lose your head or you're going to worship the Antichrist. Every religion on earth is going to come down that road.
- [20:51]
Mondo Gonzales
You know, I've seen a lot of different perspectives and I think there's, there's just. Well, there's a few ways either they're going to be there, you have some that say they're going to be leading. We're going to have an Islamic Antichrist explanation. Others think that based especially on Ezekiel 38, where God judges these hordes, that and the fire that goes on the coastlines, that part of that is going to be to subdue the Islamic religion. On the other hand too, when you think about the harlot of the Book of Revelation, that religious system, Islam is kind of this enigmatic thing is where does it end up playing, which is what you're asking. And so there's a lot of different various viewpoints. But it's hard to believe that even if they got humbled prior to the start of the tribulation, if Ezekiel 38 happens, then that they would still not be part of the harlot system during at least the first three and a half years. Because to me it's a worldwide religious system. But again, at the midpoint, as we know, she gets burned with fire and there's no room for any competition because
- [21:52]
Tim Moore
it seems like the Gog Magog war, the defeat of Islamists absolute, that there would be the dissolution of Islam and a lot of Muslims probably either buying into that Babylonian religion or I hope get saved during that time.
- [22:05]
Johannes Vogel
Well, we do know that there is going to be a one world religion in the first half of the Tribulation. It will be a collection of all the religions of the world. In the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist is miraculously healed, he will want exclusive worship and it will be singular worship towards him. But I think Islam is part of that whole prophetic plan. Number one, we know it's a core group of Islamic nations that are going to attack Israel according to Ezekiel, which I suspect will wipe out so many Muslims it will allow for the temple to be rebuilt. But I think also even there is a connection between Roman Catholicism and Islam. There is a lot of commonality that sometimes people haven't thought about in even the recent decision of the Pope to officially deny certain things that they still practice and that many countries around the world have towards Mary, but they basically have butted up next to Islam. And so you can see how things are falling into place in that realm. At least that's how I see it.
- [23:15]
Nathan Jones
We'll wrap up our discussion of the fate of Islam according to Bible prophecy with Tom Hughes, who rightly pointed to the fact that no matter how prophetic events finally play out, all false religions, including Islam, will end at last upon the return of our Savior, Jesus Christ. We are happy to say that one and only one religion will define the millennial kingdom, the worship of King Jesus.
- [23:38]
Tom Hughes
So, well, the hard part with Islam is you definitely have the Shiites and the Sunnis, but now we're watching with the Sunnis. They're not getting along with each because you have both. Qatar, you have that issue which is Sunni, and then you've got Saudi Arabia, you have the UAE are going, we don't trust Qatar. You're crazy to let Qatar and Turkey be running beyond Trump's Board of Peace or whatever it is that's going on with Gaza. So you have that dynamic. And we all know it was, I think it was Jack Kinsella who used to say all the time, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So Israel is still the enemy, but they can't get along. So if they're not attacking Israel, they will attack each other. But we also know when you work it out prophetically, the day is coming. We can tell from Daniel, chapter Isaiah, chapter 19, that there will be a turning to the Lord of Israel. Isaiah chapter 19 is going to be in Egypt, it's going to be in Assyria. What would have been the former?
- [24:42]
Nathan Jones
Yeah, the full land of Israel, as promised.
- [24:46]
Tom Hughes
So those are predominantly Arab Muslim territories right now. Daniel, chapter 11, it defines specifically the areas that are in modern day Jordan. I was just in Jordan just three weeks ago, and let me tell you, there's definitely no love for Israel, even when you're talking to those who claim to be Christians over in Jordan. They do not love Israel. They don't love the Jews.
- [25:10]
Nathan Jones
No. They're nationalistic before they're Christian, just as are the Palestinian Christians.
- [25:14]
Tom Hughes
Well, they are. And so as of right now, nope. But the day is coming in those predominantly Muslim territories, there will be a turning to Yeshua. Does that happen during the tribulation? At the end of the tribulation? I'm thinking it does. But in the meantime, I also don't see Islam as being this religion of the last days that the Antichrist is going to rise out of either.
- [25:40]
Announcer
As Lamb and Lion Ministries celebrates over 45 years of spreading the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Soon Return, we hope you'll join us to expand the Kingdom of God. God's prophetic word offers hope to every believer as we eagerly await our blessed hope, but it also conveys a stark warning for unbelievers who don't yet know him, urging them to find, flee from the wrath to come and into the loving arms of our Savior before it's too late. God has raised up individuals around the world who share our love of the Lord and look forward to a soon return. These prophecy partners pray for us and provide the financial means for us to broadcast Christ in Prophecy on both television and radio and publish our bi monthly Lamplighter magazine and other books and resources. For a commitment of at least $25 a month, our Prophecy partners receive the Lamplighter regular ministry updates and special offers throughout the year. If you've been blessed by Lamb and Lion Ministries and would like to extend that blessing to others, we hope you'll partner with us to share the exciting message that Jesus is coming soon.
- [26:40]
Nathan Jones
We ask that, as our announcer stated, you will please join us in proclaiming the soon return of Jesus Christ by becoming a prophecy partner. In doing so, you will be contributing to bringing the Gospel to the lost and and you will also be sharing and proclaiming the hope filled message of the return of our Lord. In the process, you will also lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven as Jesus encouraged in Matthew 6.
- [27:03]
Tim Moore
In the short time that we've had with you in this episode, we could only briefly cover the prophecies related to Islam's final hour to dive even deeper. We again encourage you to order offer 838the Islam and the End Times Book Bundle. This Special offer includes two hard hitting books written by our founder, Dr. David Reagan, Nine wars of the End Times and Islam and Christianity. Tim and I both contributed chapters to the latter and it also includes valuable instructions about how to witness to Muslims. Place your order using the information below.
- [27:33]
Nathan Jones
Nathan and I cannot stress this enough. Now that you know that King Jesus is coming soon to set up His Kingdom, we have to ask you are you ready? You can only be ready by surrendering your life to Jesus in faith and repentance. Ask him to be your Savior. We pray that you have done so and if you have not that you will pray right now. Do not delay.
- [27:54]
Tim Moore
Well, join us in our next episode as we ask our panel of experts if they believe Jesus will rapture the church in their lifetime. I think you will be surprised by their answers. And a question which particularly warms my heart. What are they most looking forward to upon entering the millennial kingdom?
- [28:10]
Nathan Jones
Until next time. Look up. Be watchful, for our Lord Jesus Christ is indeed coming soon. Godspeed.