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- [00:08]
A
Welcome once again to Christ in Prophecy. Over the years, Lamb and Lion Ministries has been blessed to cross paths and co labor with other faithful proclaimers of Jesus soon return. We've introduced you to some of the respected names in Bible prophecy circles during our attendance at the annual Pre Trib Conference in Dallas, Texas today. I'm glad to welcome Pete Garcia to our program. Pete is a retired combat military veteran and aviator, writer, researcher and speaker and he is a teacher of Bible prophecy and apologetics. He has written over 650 articles related to Bible prophecy that have appeared on numerous websites and platforms and has authored or co written several books focusing both on Bible prophecy and Christian fiction. Pete, thanks for joining me today.
- [00:54]
B
Thanks for having me, Tim. It's good to be back with you guys.
- [00:56]
A
Well, it's always good to have you. We enjoy crossing paths down in Texas and someday we need to get you out here to Maranatha Acres. But obviously the main topic of our conversation today is a portion of scripture that even some Christians are deceived at times to believe is fiction. And that is the Book of Revelation. I believe this fantastic book though was given to John by Jesus Christ to show his bondservants, meaning every Christian who has trusted in him for salvation, what is to happen.
- [01:25]
B
Amen. Yeah, and it's a tragedy that at the end of the age, I mean, we're right here in the cusp, in the season of the Lord's return, you have the highest amount of people within the professing church who do not take this book seriously at all. And I just think that's a tragedy. And it's one of those things that Paul addresses that we should be awake and sober minded. I think being sober minded in the context here is also taking God's word at its word. Wow, well put.
- [01:54]
A
I think there's only one eyewitness, as I like to say, of the beginning and there's only one eyewitness who through his eternal perspective can already see the end. And so he's declared them. It's only a question of whether or not we, as you said, take God at His word and believe Him. I love what you said about the scoffers in these last days sometimes being within the church. And as Second Peter talks about, it's people who ought to know better who sometimes dismiss this and other prophetic revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, here at Lamb and Lion Ministries, we're in the midst of a series addressing the end times and specifically God's revealed plan for the Rapture and the Tribulation. Contained in the book of Revelation. And you have just completed a project focusing on the first horseman of the Apocalypse, the rider on the white horse who is given a bow and a crown in the and is sent out conquering and to conquer. So, Pete, who is this mysterious rider?
- [02:52]
B
Well, he goes by many names in the Bible, but I guess we should first distinguish whether the rider on the white horse and the subsequent horsemen are individuals or the part of the system. And that's up for debate and not really the issue that I want to tackle tonight, but I want to just look at him. If this is a system, then he is a personification of the system, much in the same way that Adolf Hitler was the personification of the Third Reich and everything that the Third Reich stood for. So we'll just go with the, with the actual passage itself, and then we'll break the passage down and then go from there and reading in verse one, chapter six, Revelation. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder, one of the four be saying, come and see. And I saw, behold a white horse. And he that sat on him had a bow and. And a crown was given unto him. And he went forth conquering and to conquer. So just using those two passages there, we're going to garner a whole bunch of information about who this individual is and whether he is the individual or he's coming out of this system. But nonetheless, we know that we'll just break the passage down as it is. It says, when I. I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals. So we know that in chapter five of Revelation that Jesus is the one that initiates these judgments. And we know that the seal judgments are followed by the trumpet judgments, which are followed by the bowl judgments. So they are all initiated right here with Christ opening the first one. Because he's the only one that was found worthy in the entire universe, in the entire reality. Heaven, hell, above the earth, below the earth, the every, there's nobody that is worthy. And the reason that Christ alone is worthy is that he is our kinsman, Redeemer. He is God who became flesh in order to redeem mankind. So he's the only one like him in, in the entire universe. So he is the one that initiates this judgment. And it is a judgment. And secondly, it says, and I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder. So when Christ opens the seal, it initiates this thunderclap, I guess, or, or very loud sound that goes forth. And you can tell that when this seal is opened, it is going to be heard and it's going to be heard and it's going to ring throughout the heavens. I don't know if it's heard on the earth, but it is for sure heard throughout the heavens. And we know later on in the book of Revelation, I think in Revelation 10, there's these seven thunders that are given and John is told not to write them down. So that may be an additional seven judgments. We don't, we aren't told. But it's interesting that these, that, that seems like it's indicative of judgment of some kind, these seven thunders that we hear about later on. And so it says one of the four beasts saying, come and see in chapter.
- [05:37]
A
I have to interject right now, Pete, even as you're talking, when you say beasts, obviously some people think, was that the beast? These are the living creatures in other translations that are in heaven serving the Lord. So not equated with the beast later that we're going to hear about in Revelation. So I hate to interrupt you.
- [05:53]
B
No worries. This is King James. So it just had as a beast the living creatures that we see in chapter four, these cherubim angels and they have the four faced angels. And so I'm curious if this first, if this first living creature that comes forward to say, come and see if that's not the lion that we see that is mentioned first in chapter four. So that's interesting thing to think about. He says, come and see. And I saw and behold a white horse. So the white in scripture and you know, pretty much throughout the rest of human history, we associate white with purity, with righteousness. You know, when a, when a woman gets married, she wears a white bridal gown. And it's, it's, you know, it's something indicative across most cultures. And here this is not the white horse that we see in Revelation 19. Satan can't create anything. He can only mimic and copy what God does. So this is his copy, counterfeit Messiah going forward. And he's going to seem very regal. He's going to seem very appealing, right? So we hear right after that that he, so we know it's a man, it's not a woman, that he sat on him on this horse and he had a bow. So we know when Christ returns. Revelation 19, he doesn't carry a bow, he has a sword that comes out of his mouth. And he doesn't have one crown, but many crowns. And the crown that he's given here, and this is something that was given to the Antichrist in here, in passage 6, verse 2. This crown, the Stefano's crown, is not something that he inherits, it's something that he earns. It's something that is given to him. And he goes forth with one mind to conquer. He goes forth to conquer in his conquering. So that is who we find in this passage as the first horsemen of the Apocalypse.
- [07:35]
A
You know, the fascinating thing to me, as you said, this could be a personification of the Antichrist. That's some thinking, really representative of an entire system. But it is a counterfeit to Jesus Christ, and it's a counterfeit of the kingdom of God. So Satan has always had this desire for him or for his, I'll call it Avatar, the person he will rule through to reign on the earth. And I so appreciate your analysis. I think we could understand that God's sovereignty is clearly represented here because Jesus not only breaks the seal, but unleashing this individual, but gives him a certain authority, shall we say? And that's a word used in Revelation. So even this evil actor is given authority by none other than Jesus Christ, not only proving that it is the wrath of God being poured out through this instrument, but that even Satan has certain limits on his power on this earth only as far as the Lord allows him to go, right?
- [08:34]
B
And in Revelation 13:7, when he is out in the midst of the tribulation, persecuting the saints, these tribulation saints, these people that will come to faith after the rapture and enduring the time of Daniel 70th week, it is said that he is given authority to overcome the saints. So this is again something that is God is exercising through his sovereignty. But from the very beginning, God is sovereign. He's always sovereign. He always will be sovereign. But in that sovereignty, he has allowed mankind a certain degree of free will. And we saw that exercise in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve willingly disobeyed God. But from that time forward, from the, from the garden going forward after the fall, God began to put guardrails up, these divine guardrails up. And these come in the form of, of, like the Noah covenants, the laws, the Abrahamic covenant, all the different types of covenants and decrees that go forth from God are meant to guardrail humanity going forward so that they don't stray too far to the left or too far to the right. And when they do, there's always this kind of immediate judgment. We saw the judgment with the Flood, we saw later the Judgment with the Tower of Babel. And we've seen through the institution of human government. God has been able to initiate and establish these checks and balances throughout the rest of human history. And so what we come forward to here at this point inside of the 70th week itself is that God removes those guardrails. And so the first judgment that is allowed to come forth is this man who is going to. Man or system goes forth and then he goes and he establishes his. He's establishing a worldwide kingdom. In mimicking, like you mentioned earlier, mimicking with the kingdom that is to come, he's trying to, to be the pre. To. To. To usurp that coming kingdom by establishing his own kingdom ahead of time. And we know that that's not going to work. But Acts 17:26, when Paul was addressing the Athenians, he was mentioning to them that, that God is the one that establishes
- [10:35]
A
one.
- [10:36]
B
The from one blood. He has made all the nations that would come forth and he has determined their pre appointed times and the boundaries of that. So it seems like it's not that this Antichrist is this, this guy that God has hidden in some closet up there waiting to be unleashed on the world. No, instead God is removing the guardrails from this and allowing. And once he does that, immediately this man in this system will, will come forth and they will begin to dominate and conquer the earth.
- [11:03]
A
Yeah, I love what you said about God allowing people to receive the due penalty for sin sometimes immediately. That's what Paul even says in Romans 1:27 and the idea of guardrails. As my children were growing up, I always said to them, guard your heart and while you're at home, I will help you guard your heart. So how should this passage and this understanding inform and guard our hearts and to the end time deception that seems so rampant today both outside and sometimes beat inside the church.
- [11:33]
B
Well, you know, just kind of staying on topic here is I like to go back to what you know, the King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel Chapter 4, came to this understanding after, after boasting of himself and how great he was and how great his kingdom was. God humbled him for seven years and he lived like a wild animal. And at the end of that he, Nebuchadnezzar is saying, God is the one that appoints leaders and causes them to rise and causes them to fall. So I think we take comfort in the fact now that because we still have these governments in place, we still have these systems in place, that God is still exercising this, this, this particular kind of sovereignty over the nations and we have time and that this time has not yet come. Even though we see the architecture being built for it right now we see the, the landscape is being terraformed for the beast kingdom that's coming. Even though we can see that and we have eyes to see it's not yet. And so we can take comfort in the fact that is not yet. And there's a lot of groups out there saying that we're in the tribulation now or that we were in it 10 years ago, or it's already started. And there's a lot of fear mongering that goes along with these things. And those always come with agendas and then false teachings behind them.
- [12:42]
A
Obviously Pete, war and famine and death are not unleashed as widespread judgment. Simultaneously with this first rider, they are the next three horsemen of Apocalypse. So what does that say, along with the bow without arrows, regarding the initial tactics of the Antichrist in this system? And how does that align with Daniel 8, Daniel 11 and 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2?
- [13:06]
B
I mean, if we just look back historically, we can always see these great political movements go forth, whether we're talking about the Bolshevik revolution or Mao's revolution or, you know, all these things that go forth and they always start off with these great ideas and these great plans. And then very quickly what we see is that reality hits those plans and smashes them into a thousand pieces. And so I think what happens with this, this Antichrist character that comes forth, and he's not called the Antichrist in Revelation, but he is called Antichrist by John, who was given the Revelation. So in John chapter two, and I think in another chapter, chapter four, I think he is called the Antichrist. To that is to come the Antichrist. So this is a pseudo Christ. He's going to be a pretend, a fake messiah and he's going to come forth with all these grandiose ideas of, of how to fix the planet and how to fix the world, because the world's going to be reeling from the, the crisis of the Rapture. I think that also that you're gonna have the, the war of Gog and Magog will have taken place shortly after the Rapture, but before the timing of this. So the world's going to have these power vacuums there, there's going to be calamitous events, a lot of lawlessness will have spread throughout the world. So he's going to try and regain control. And, and as many politicians are apt to believe, you never let a good crisis go to waste. So he's going to be the right man at the right time, the right place to capitalize on this. And he's going to, I think, put forth and capture this global control through technology. And it seems like through technology he'll be able to capture control of the economies and then the governments themselves, and then lastly the religious systems that will be in place at that time. But we know in Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, he's identified as the little horn. He's a. He's a leader that rises up amongst the other 10 horns. He supplants three, and then he takes over the whole thing. He's pompous, he's blasphemous. He is a man with fierce features and dark. He understands dark schemes. And he has. Apparently he's very intelligent, very charismatic. And I think that rules out a lot of current leaders that we have right now, that there's a lot of folks that believe it's King Charles. There's a lot of people that believe it. You know, Biden or whoever. You know, none of these men are going to have what this guy is going to have. The fact that we don't know who he is just yet is something that Paul indicates in 2nd Thessalonians 2, that we are not going to know because of the restraining influence. Once the restraining influence of the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit is removed at the Rapture with the church, then. Then it's allowed to come forth, right, that guardrails are removed. And then he comes forth to expose and to exploit, rather, the ongoing crisis. And that's where I think he steps forth. But he's not going to have to come forth with the sword first. He's going to come forth with flattery, words, understanding. Very intelligent, very charismatic.
- [16:05]
A
Yeah, he'll be a man with a plan, as we say. And I'm reminded, just like you said, that all the despots and dictators in the world come out initially as people of peace with great ideas. I think of even the new mayor elect, as we're talking, Zoram Mamdani in New York, who became a charismatic young leader, energetic and exciting to some. And yet shortly after his election, he made it very clear he expects government to take over every sphere of life there in the city. Well, one more demonstration of the sovereignty of God is the fact that this person, this individual, the first writer, is given a crown. Who gives that crown? And how does that contrast with the supposed presumed authority wielded by the beast in Revelation 13?
- [16:50]
B
So, I mean, if you look at it kind of at a tiered level at the Top level, God is allowing all this to take place according to his plan. So ultimately God is allowing this to take place under that. We see in Luke chapter four where Satan is tempting Jesus in the wilderness and one of the temptations is that he offers to give him all the kingdoms of the world if he would just bow down and worship him. You know, Jesus to worship Satan and Jesus rebukes him with scripture. And, but Jesus doesn't discount the claim that Satan makes in that statement. So it seems like there is some authority by Satan that is given to him to manage certain degree all the nations of the world minus Israel. And it seems in this instance that Satan is going to throw everything that he has into this one individual. And in much the same way that when you look at World War II, look at the rise of Hitler, look at how everything just seemed to be working out for him and all of his plans going forward just seemed to be working. He was conquering and conquering. And it wasn't until about the midpoint when I think Satan realized, hey, this guy's not going to be able to do it. He's made too many bad decisions on his own, opening up a two front war with Russia and the West. And I think at that point Satan abandons him. And you can see the abandonment when these guys at the very end they end up just taking their own lives or they end up in just a terrible shape. And here, in this instance right here, I think that Satan is empowering this man and he's going to throw everything behind him. And so this man will not only have all the technology at his fingertips, he'll also have the adoration of his fellow co leaders who will then say, you are clearly the, the, the man with the golden touch. We're going to follow you. And then they throw their support behind him, giving them him more credibility. And then ultimately by the midpoint we see that this man is going to demand worship of the whole world. And so he's gonna, he's going to be really come to believe that he is God in the flesh. And so I think that some of this is given to him by Satan or a lot of it is given to him by Satan, but it's also by his co conspirators. These 10 kings and these other rulers in the false prophet are going to be feeding this guy's ego. And so it's going to be a, a crown that is, is definitely not inherited, is going to be something that he takes and then he's going to run with it and proclaim his own kingship over the whole earth.
- [19:12]
A
Yep. The sovereignty of God is still being wielded even through all the machinations of man. God's will will be done. Well, what else can we learn about the relationship between divine judgment? Of course, this is an outpouring of wrath throughout chapter six. And the human political systems that we are witnessing coming to fruition today, especially the rise of global governance that will finally find its fulfillment under the Antichrist.
- [19:38]
B
Yeah. And so as I mentioned previously, that, that these guardrails that got initiated after the. After the fall of Adam and Eve, we see this really reinstituted here in the new covenant where God makes capital punishment a form, the form of judgment for the charge of murder. And so in order to enforce capital punishment, one has to have a system in place that can actually enforce that. Where we see the creation of governments coming forth here, the institution of human government. And so God has allowed these human governments to be these checks and balances to go forth. Obviously, after the Tower of Babel, this was something that was even more diversified across the planet. And all the different languages, all the different cultures, and those become their own forms of checks and balances. But if you go back to the Tower of Babel, what was the intention there? The intention was for them to come together. And first they're disobeying God's decree already to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Instead, they are congregating in the plains of Shinar, and they're under the leadership, presumably, of a man named Nimrod. If Nimrod is the man in charge at that time, then he would have been the world's first dictator. And then later on, we're going to see the final iteration of this with this Antichrist character who's going to be the world's last dictator. And so there's always been this desire from Satan to bring all the nations of the world under one system so that he could corrupt that system and take control of it. And God has been able to stratify and diversify all of the different kinds of cultures and kingdoms out there to such a degree that Satan couldn't be able to do that. And it's only been in this last generation where technology has really leveled the playing fields to bring everybody under one system. We're no longer bound by the confusion of languages, the confusion of. And the differences of culture and of currencies and things like that. Now technology, through digitalizing currency, through all the. The artificial intelligence and all the systems that we have that can Translate very quickly any kind of language, any kind of dialect. We've removed all, we're removing, we're trying to remove those guardrails in and of ourselves and God. At the last, with the removal of the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit, he's saying, fine, you want to have your own government, you want to have your own world ruler, you want to have your own system that is devoid of me, then I'm going to take that out. And, and then we see this rider on the right white horse come rushing forward, right? And this is the guy. This is the judgment that mankind's first going to suffer. They're going to suffer not only from the first judgment, the first seal judgment, but, but that rider on the white horse is going to ride throughout the entirety of the 70th week itself. And so he is going to be the overarching figure here driving all of the judgments that are coming upon the earth.
- [22:31]
A
You know, you say that Satan wants to rule over all the earth. I think that Satan also sparked in the heart of Adam and Eve the idea that they could be gods because there is also a desire in man's heart to rule over things. Now God gave us dominion, and so there is a rightful that we are to rule and have dominion, but Satan wants us to do it without God as the ultimate Lord. And so some are tempted in that regard. Obviously, Satan has been a liar and a deceiver since the beginning. And you touching on the world system that is already coming to the fore, what else do you see that manifests Satan's, I guess, strategy of counterfeit messiana? Well, I'll call it counterfeit messages, Messianic tendencies. And what warnings does this provide for our world today that's conditioned by signs, wonders, and even technical or technological salvation?
- [23:23]
B
Okay, well, a couple things too. First is that in John 5:43, Jesus said, you know, I have come in my Father's name and you didn't receive me. Another will come in his name and him you will receive. And we also know that Paul writes that this guy is going to come with lying signs and wonders. So this guy is going to come forth pretending to be a messiah, but also having some kind of supernatural power backing him in ways he's going to be able to exercise across and woo the people and the populations on the earth at that time. But the thing that the way to counter that is that Jesus said, hey, I'm going to tell you these things beforehand so that when they happen, you'll know that these are the things that I've spoken of. And you know what I'm saying is true. So foreknowledge and why talking about these things now is so imperative so that when people come across this after the fact, they'll know that, hey, this, this was something that these Christians, these crazy Christians were talking about this whole time, trying to warn us ahead of time. And so it doesn't matter the supernatural signs and wonders, doesn't matter how miraculous these things seem. If you have the foreknowledge that God is telling you beforehand that these are going to be lying signs and wonders and do not believe them, then that is a shield and armor that we can or those then at that time are going to be able to use to protect and guard their own hearts and minds against the lies of Satan.
- [24:44]
A
Well, the other thing is instead of just saying, hey, I'm saved, I'm good, I don't have to worry about all this, we can understand what Christ has chosen to reveal and so warn those around us to flee from the wrath to come to Flee from those 21 judgments that you've already spoken about. We know that in wrath, God does remember mercy. That's what Habakkuk prayed. And the Lord always remembers mercy. So even during the tribulation, there's opportunity for people to come to Christ. But as followers of Christ in the church age, it should be our urgent mission to warn people so they don't have to go into the tribulation, but can put faith in Christ right now.
- [25:21]
B
Well, the last thing to recognize is that for us as believers, we're seeing the contours of this coming beast kingdom forming right before our very eyes. And that should not intimidate us, but it should embolden us to recognize that these developments remind us how rapidly the end of the age is approaching and that our redemption draws even nearer. And then for the unbeliever, I think the same science carry a very different kind of weight. It's one of urgency and sobriety and rightful fear. These events should indicate the nearness should not drive them away or cause them to delay making a decision for Christ or postpone it and think, well, I'll do that next year, I'll do that when I finish this current job or this education, etc. But today, today is the day of salvation. And so that this should all embolden them to get right with the Lord before this time comes. Because what's coming upon the earth is a time that Jesus said was the worst time in human history. Past, present, future, it is going to be the worst time and we don't wish that upon our worst enemies to go through that. So today is the day of salvation and they should get right with the Lord, believe in the finished work of Christ, the cross in his death, burial and resurrection for salvation and they will be saved.
- [26:32]
A
Beautifully said Pete. I can't think of a better way to close out this conversation with that urgent warning and really that message of hope. Well, we will definitely put your website on the screen for people to be able to connect to you, but what other projects are you working on? Right now I'm working on a book
- [26:48]
B
with Terry James called the Machine Speaks and it's going to be dealing with the technology behind the Image of the Beast. Currently transitioning my website from Rev310.net I'm moving over to Substack and then just continuing with my weekly Monday Night Live broad live streams and then other video projects with other creators and watchers out there proclaiming the soon return of Jesus Christ.
- [27:16]
A
Well Pete, thanks again for joining us on Christ in Prophecy. I hope to see you at the preterb conference and we'll look forward to welcoming you back to prophecy again soon. Hopefully next time here live at Maranatha Acres.
- [27:28]
B
Amen.
- [27:29]
C
As Lamb and Lion Ministries celebrates over 45 years of spreading the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Soon Return, we hope you'll join us to expand the Kingdom of God. God's prophetic word offers hope to every believer as we eagerly await our blessed hope, but it also conveys a stark warning for unbelievers who don't yet know him, urging them to flee from the wrath to come and into the loving army of our Savior before it's too late. God has raised up individuals around the world who share our love of the Lord and look forward to a soon return. These prophecy partners pray for us and provide the financial means for us to broadcast Christ in Prophecy on both television and radio, and publish our bi monthly Lamplighter magazine and other books and resources. For a commitment of at least $25 a month. Our prophecy partners receive the Lamplighter regular ministry updates and special offers throughout the year. If you've been blessed by Lamp and Lion Ministries, I would like to extend that blessing to others. We hope you'll partner with us to share the exciting message that Jesus is coming soon.