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- [00:01]
A
The coming millennial reign of Jesus is one of the greatest promises in all of Scripture. What will this time be like? How will believers serve? And why are there so many differing views? The answers come your way next on this edition of Discerning Our Days from Mark Henry Ministries. This is Discerning Our Days. Now, here are your hosts, Pastors Mark Henry and Josh Schwartz.
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B
Welcome to today's program. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz along with Pastor Mark Henry, and we are so excited to bring you another episode of Discerning Our Days. Well, our guest today is Dr. Nathan Jones. Dr. Jones serves as the director of Internet outreach and evangelism at Lamb and Lion Ministries. Nathan co hosts the weekly program Christ in Prophecy, and he also co hosts a weekly podcast called the truth will set you free. Nathan can primarily be found growing and developing lamb and lion's web ministry. He's also written and contributed to numerous books, all of which can be found in his bio@christinprophecy.org Nathan, welcome to Discerning Our Days.
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C
Hey, Pastor Josh. Pastor Mark. So good to see you gentlemen.
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B
Yeah, we're thankful for you. We're thankful for the opportunity to have you on and to have this extremely important conversation. The conversation today is going to be about the millennial reign of Jesus. Now, it's one of the most glorious times in human history. Jesus will rule and reign, and the promises to the prophets will prevail. But should believers look forward to this time? What might we experience and how will we serve? Yet, if this will be such a glorious time, why are there so many different viewpoints? What do the scriptures actually teach? We will address these questions and more today with our guest, Dr. Nathan Jones. Gentlemen, I just want to start this whole program with a clip of just the gloriousness of the millennial kingdom. And then we can dive right into this important conversation.
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D
Jesus came the first time to save the world. He will come the second time to judge the world in righteousness. When King Jesus returns to this earth, both the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire. The Bible says that an angel will bind Satan the devil, throw him into the bottomless pit and seal it shut for a thousand years. Satan will no longer be able to deceive the nations, for his evil influence will be removed from the earth. For those believers in Jesus who had been martyred during the tribulation period, they will be resurrected and reign with King Jesus for a thousand years. These believers will be part of what the Bible calls the first resurrection. If we are believers in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of the true king, we too shall reign with Jesus for a thousand years. The prophecies and promises of the Old Testament concerning this future millennial kingdom will be fulfilled. The focus of history will again turn to Israel. This nation will be physically and spiritually restored. Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in the capital of Jerusalem and establish his kingdom with judgment and justice. Peoples from all over the world will come to the house of the God of Jacob, for the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Kings will fall down before Jesus Christ. Nations will serve him, and the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
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B
Now, this is a glorious time. This is a time that we get to look forward to. It's a time that God has promised in his words. Dr. Nathan Jones, can you give us an overview of the millennial kingdom as according to the scriptures?
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C
Well, absolutely, and that's a great video. It does it so much better than I could explain, and in a cooler accent, too. But what we're talking about here with the millennial kingdom is the fulfillment of so many prophecies, especially what's called the Davidic Covenant. You can find that in 2 Samuel 7, God promised King David. He says, I will set up your seed after you, and I will establish the throne of his, the Messiah's king forever. And so this is a promise made to the the ultimate descendant of David, who we know is Jesus Christ, that he will rule and reign on David's throne. Not just the throne in heaven, but on David's throne. And so that's what we're looking forward to, the return of Jesus Christ. You guys know that there's 500 prophecies in the Old Testament and 1 in 25 verses of the New Testament prophesy the return of Jesus Christ. It's the most prolific promise in the entire Bible. And when he comes, he's going to establish his earthly kingdom.
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B
Amen. Now, Pastor Mark, why is the millennial kingdom so understudied, yet so important?
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E
I think there's a couple of reasons, Josh. One is many believe that the church has replaced Israel, and so they downplay the promises to Israel. The millennial kingdom is about the Davidic Covenant, the Jewish people, the promise of Jerusalem being the city where God's name is known, righteousness, the government resting upon Jesus shoulders. And so, quite honestly, a lot people starting back with the allegorization of the scriptures with Augustine and the city of our God and the church replacing Israel and them believing that, it's just kind of like, well, it's just about us getting to heaven. Well, there is going to be a new heavens and a new earth, but before that, there is this millennial kingdom. It's a thousand years. All the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God is going to keep all of those promises. It says in the book of Genesis, in both chapter 12, 15, and 17, that Abraham will possess the land, every square foot that he walked around him and his descendants. And if we from Scripture, by reading that Acts, chapter eight. Excuse me, Acts chapter seven, it says that Abraham did not possess one square foot. So either God lied, or God's going to give Abraham and those descendants, all of those Old Testament, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, all of them, that promised land. God's going to keep his promise, and it's going to be in the millennial kingdom.
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B
Praise God. Now, I think there's confusion on the eschatological timeline, if you will, of the events that come next. So, Nathan, you first, and then Mark, can you just walk our listeners through the timeline of eschatology, starting with the church age and moving through toward the tribulation, the millennial kingdom, and then eventually the eternal state. So, Nathan, could you walk us through those?
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C
Okay. There's a lot of confusion about the kingdom of Christ. So I think the best person who ever defined it was Cotton Mather. He was a Puritan pastor back in the 1700s. And when he was asked, what is the kingdom of Christ? He says, it's a fourfold kingdom. And so what does he mean by that? He says, well, it's a kingdom that is providential. In other words, God rules supreme over the whole universe. He's ultimately sovereign, and we can all agree on that. The second fold of this kingdom, he said, is spiritual. In other words, Jesus says that this kingdom is not of this earth. He was creating a spiritual kingdom where he ruled and reigned through the hearts of men. But Cotton said there was a third fold to the kingdom, and that's the ecclesiastical fold. That is the church age. From Pentecost to the Rapture. Everybody who's accepted Jesus Christ as savior is part of the church, and the Lord's influence and direction for this world comes through the church. And, guys, that's where usually most Christians will park there at the ecclesiastical. They wipe their hands and say, well, that's it. But Cotton pointed out the Davidic covenant, where there is a Davidic fold to the kingdom, a future kingdom which has not yet been established. And so many prophecies throughout the Bible promise that Jesus Christ will rule and reign physically on this earth with from Jerusalem in David's seat. And so when you look at it the way Cotton explained it, I think it helps us understand that, yes, there's a difference between the church age as well as there's a difference from the period that follows called the tribulation, and then the period that follows that, the millennial kingdom, and then the final phase of human history, which will be the eternal state.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there has to be distinctions there. Now, Pastor Mark, why do you think it is that so many people want to confuse the millennial kingdom with the eternal state?
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E
You know, I think it's just kind of like people just, like, read the Scriptures and then they just kind of like make meatloaf out of it. It's just like you just got to understand the flow and so forth. There are specific promises that are made that have to be fulfilled. There are distinctive elements that have to be fulfilled. God's not confused. It's not very confusing, quite honestly. If you just, like, read the scriptures and follow along. You know, I often have people say things like, oh, you read Darby or you read these? No, I didn't. I started reading the Bible. I mean, I trusted Jesus Christ. I'm reading the Book of Revelation, chapter two and chapter three. It talks about the church, talks about in chapter one, Jesus, the one who is the Almighty, the one who exists, the Alpha and the Omega. And then it talks about the church things that were happening there in the days of the writings. And then it talks about the future things. It's very clear that there's this tribulation period, very clear that Jesus is coming back. It's very clear that there's a millennial kingdom six times Josh. In that passage, it says he will reign for 1,000 years. They will reign for a thousand years. They are going to be with Christ for 1,000 years. And then Satan is released again. There's a lot of details in this, but Satan is then released. There's this great rebellion against Jesus, this great rebellion surrounding Jerusalem. We're going to wipe out Jesus. We're going to get rid of him. And Satan's sitting there licking his chops again, thinking he's going to win and he's going to cast them all in the lake of fire. And then there's a new heaven and a new earth, the eternal state. We are looking forward to all of this happening. Jesus is going to keep his promise. Jesus is going to deal with Satan. The victory is Jesus. That's what people need to remember, prophecy is all about Jesus. He wins, triumphant, and we're going to be a part of that.
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B
Amen. Now, Nathan Jones, there is this really future reality that we get to look forward to being part of the millennial kingdom with Jesus as he rules and reigns, he will return and he will reign on David's throne. As you've talked about in as you mentioned in 2 Samuel chapter 7. Can you walk us through what that ruling and reigning that Jesus is doing will be like?
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C
Oh, absolutely. You know, gentlemen, Jesus ends the entire Bible in Revelation 22. Not once, twice, but three times. He says verse, behold, I am coming quickly and my reward is with me to give to everyone according to his work. And this is where folks kind of break down. You know, by the time as you said Mark, we got to Augustine's time, people kind of given up that Jesus Christ was coming back. They thought, well, maybe it was a spiritual return. And that's become the predominant view. It's called amillennialism. No millennium. But we believe that yes, we are pre millennial. We believe that this milli millenum, which is Latin for thousand years, is a literal thousand years. Because in Revel Revelation 20, like you said six times, Jesus said a thousand years. A thousand years, A thousand years. And just to answer your last question, this is where the breakdown happens because people don't interpret the Bible literally. Here at Lamb and Lion Ministries, we follow the golden rule of interpretation, which is if the plain sense makes sense, look for no other sense lest you end up with nonsense. And guys, you know that people interpret the Bible any way they want it and so they end up with a lot of nonsense. And so yet we get these wonderful verses like Daniel 2:44 for instance, says where the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall what never be destroyed, and the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever. So here's a promise that God is going to end this failed flawed human system. All these 193 governments out there that are just corrupt and falling apart, even the best of them all, all these great empires that have come and gone, it will all end when Jesus Christ rules, says Zechariah 14:9. And the Lord shall be king over not part of the earth or the church over all the earth. So we've got these promises here that Jesus Christ is coming and his personality. We're not talking about a failed flawed human. Isaiah 96 we read he's called wonderful counselor, mighty God everlasting Father and Prince of peace and of his government, peace there will be no end. And here we learned the throne of David and his kingdom to order establishment with what? Judgment and justice this time forever. So, gentlemen, it's clearly not the age we're living in. It's a future time period where Jesus rules in peace, righteousness and justice on this earth.
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E
You know, I so appreciate that verse that you just read, that Isaiah, chapter 9, verse 6 is the part that everybody knows at Christmas time. You know, unto us a child is born, a son is given. That's the first advent. But in the second advent, it says the government shall rest upon his shoulders. And now there are some of my friends who are running around saying, well, Jesus is ruling and reigning right now. No, he's not. In fact, there's a lot of Christian songs that talk about Jesus ruling and reigning. He's seated at the right hand of God. He's coming in glory, power and majesty. Matthew chapter 25 says, he will descend on his glorious throne. Then he will judge the sheep from the goats. And certain people are going into lake fire at that point. But then he will establish his millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years. The government will rest upon his shoulders. And just as you just mentioned, justice and righteousness are the characteristics of that government. It's going to be awesome. We're going to be a part of that. I'm looking forward to it.
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C
Oh, yeah, look at Isaiah 42. 3. It says he will bring forth justice for truth. Do we have that today? Absolutely not. It says, he will not fail nor be discouraged till he has what established justice in the earth.
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E
And.
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C
And the coastland shall wait for his law. Do we see the world, the coastlands, in other words, the nations of the world anxious to hear the law from Jesus? No, they absolutely reject the law from Jesus. So clearly we're talking about a future prophecy.
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B
Absolutely. We are not in the millennium now, as so many people want to say. We are not in Satan's little season. We're not the end of the millennium. We're not the beginning of the millennium. We are not there. It just doesn't make sense when you read it. For the plain sense of what the Scriptures have to say now, Nathan Jones, you just recently wrote a book on the Millennial Kingdom. Can you tell our listeners where they can find your newest work?
- [15:07]
C
Well, the book's called the Coming Millennial Kingdom, and it's what life will be like for us when Jesus reigns on Earth. You can go to comingkingdombook.com or Amazon.com or our own website at christinprophecy.org or up there, lambandlion.com lamblion.com but it kind of goes. I did. It was published through Harvest House Publishers, and they called it the Coming Millennial Kingdom. I said, well, don't you got think, guys, that should be called the Forgotten Kingdom. Because how many Christians know anything about the Millennial Kingdom? It's really a forgotten topic from most pulpits. And they said, well, that sounds too much like a novel. So they went with the Coming Millennial Kingdom. But it truly does. It teaches about what the Bible says, purely what the Bible says verse by verse. It takes through all the promises related to the Millennial Kingdom. And I think it was a wonderful opportunity for me to get my head straight around the Millennial Kingdom, but then also help others do the same thing.
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B
Praise God. I've worked through it, and it's a resource book. And it's such a blessing to be able to, in one resource, have all these promises and the scripture references therein.
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E
Now, you wrote that as part of your doctrinal thesis. How did that impact the professors?
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C
Well, it started out as my dissertation on the problem of evil as it relates to failed human government. People lose their faith when they put their faith in government. So what is the solution to that? And the answer to that is the eternal Kingdom that's coming with a kind of a foreshadow, which is the Millennial Kingdom. And I submitted it to. I had a course like, when you're working on a doctoral dissertation, you're assigned a professor to watch over you. And he said it right from the front and says, well, I'm a millennial. In other words, I don't believe there's a real literal Millennial Kingdom. But I'm willing to listen and see what you have. And I thought, oh, boy, this book's going to be rejected. This dissertation will be rejected. And by the end of it, he says, you know what? You gave me enough convincing arguments. I'm changing my position to premillennialism. I was like, ah, that was so wonderful. So when I present it to Harvest House, Harvest House says, hey, yeah, you got to rewrite that into a book. We got to get that out there and get people excited that Jesus Christ is returning, that he's setting up his kingdom. And we as Christians are promised to rule and reign with Jesus Christ. The believing remnant of Jewish people will be a priestly people during that time. The animals won't be killing each other. There'll be no War whatsoever. There'll be plenty of food. The curse will be partially lifted. Lifespans will increase into the hundreds. I mean, it's a wonderful time of peace and prosperity. And guys, I'm just as excited as you are. So, yeah, I'm glad that this book helped at least one person understand what the Bible's truly teaching concerning the millennial kingdom.
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E
You know, I would encourage you, if your pastor is Amil or post mill, to get a copy of that book and give it to him as a gift. In fact, I would encourage you even get and give it like to all the elders in your church, because this is a very important topic. Every one of the minor prophets except Jonah ends with a declaration about the millennial kingdom. The whole expectation of the apostles is, this time you're going to set up your kingdom. What were they thinking about a millennial kingdom as described in the book of Isaiah, as described throughout the minor prophets. And I think it's really an important topic.
- [18:28]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It is a huge topic that doesn't get talked about enough. And like you said, Nathan, it's almost like it's the forgotten kingdom now. We will be present there, gentlemen. We as saints, as those who have placed our faith in Christ Jesus as Lord, will be present with Jesus ruling and reigning. Mark, you said we get government jobs. What does that maybe look like?
- [18:50]
E
Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this. Oftentimes I think Christians don't get instruction on this because it is very Jewish. The millennial kingdom is about Jesus ruling and reigning on David's kingdom. It's emphasized throughout. It says in the book of Psalms, God will not forget his promise. God's going to keep his promise to David. What is our role in the church age? Well, at the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the church, we have this wonderful reunion. We'll always be with Christ. Wherever Christ is, that's where we're going to be from then on. So when he's ruling on that throne, we're going to be with him. Friends, you're going to have a government job. It's going to be amazing. Satan is going to be bound for that thousand years. I was debating a theologian some time ago and he was saying, oh, Mark, you don't understand the flow of scripture. This is all being fulfilled, right? Right now. Christians owning land today is a fulfillment of the millennial kingdom. The governments are getting better. I'm like, what turnip truck did you fall off of, my friend? I mean, this is a mess out here. And so I just encouraged him like Think for just one second. It says that Satan is bound for the thousand years so that he does not deceive the nations. Aren't the nations deceived right now? Isn't Satan a roaring lion seeking who may devour right now? But there's a day coming and you're going to have a government job with Jesus and Satan's going to be bound. It's going to be awesome. And at the end of that thousand years, Jesus is going to allow Satan to be released for a short period of time and then he's going to rebel again. That's in his heart. It's in his DNA. And there's going to be people who have been born during that thousand years who are going to rebel against Jesus. It's totally crazy. It shows the hardness of our hearts. Jesus is on Fox News every night. He's on CNN every night. We're like, wow, you're the King of kings, Lord of Lords. You got this great administration. You got Nathan and Josh. These guys are doing such a great job in your administration. And that's how it's going to go for a thousand years. But one second, just a small period of time to rebel with Satan and man's going to join Satan. It's crazy. It's crazy.
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B
Well, we've got Jesus ruling and reigning. We've got us administering his government as co regents. Now Isaiah talks about how in Isaiah chapter 11, that the Lamb will lie down with the lion. Nathan, can you walk us through these millennial promises and how creation will be to an extent restored?
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C
Absolutely. Okay, so just to give you a timeline here, folks, the Tribulation era, it's a time of great judgment where the Lord pretty much through 21 judgments, brings the earth to the brink of annihilation. Jesus Christ returns. He defeats Satan, he casts him in a pit. I believe the demons write to hell because there's no more mention of them. The Antichrist and false prophet go to hell as well. The armies are destroyed. The Lord holds the sheep, goat judgment. And those who got saved during the tribulation in their earthly bodies live on into the kingdom as its citizens. And they have children. And then you read about this kingdom and you know, guys, you're absolutely right. Give these three verses to anyone who believes we're in the kingdom now and say, are we in the kingdom now? Isaiah 11:9. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Is it? Or how about Malachi 1 11. For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down. My name shall be great amongst the gentiles. Jesus name is used as a curse word now. Or Jeremiah 23:6 where Jesus going to go by a new name. Yahweh Sid Canu the Lord our righteousness. Well I don't know about you but there's plenty of nature documentaries out there and every time you look there's some animal eating some other animal. But Isaiah 11:6 says the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard with the young lion. It goes on a children can put its hand in the viper's den. In other words, the during Christ's kingdom, after he's restores the planet to almost garden like existence, he partially lifts the curse. It's going to be a time of great peace, a great righteousness, all the justice. There won't be any war, no more war anymore. Hosea 2 a bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth to make them lie down in safety. Guys, I don't know about you, but I love the Lord of the Rings series. And there's that beginning where Frodo. I guess it's probably more the Hobbit, but no, it is Lord of the Rings. Froto's sitting under a tree and he has no idea about what's going on outside of the Shire. All the craziness and he's just reading a book and he's at peace, he's not worried about being attacked. And I think ah, that is a breath of what the millennial kingdom be like. A time of great peace, great food, bounty. Even the Dead Sea will come back to life again. There's so many prophecies that are clearly aren't being fulfilled today. They're definitely future.
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B
Amen. Well this has been a great conversation gentlemen. Thank you so much for it to bring a little bit of clarity to what so many people think is just confusing. Welcome to the Extra Cut of Discerning Our Days. We're so glad you are joining us. This is a great time to have a deeper conversation with this week's guest. Welcome to the Extra Cut of Discerning Our Days. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz along with Pastor Mark Henry and our guest today is Dr. Nathan Jones from Lamb and Lion Ministries and we are having a great discussion on the millennial Kingdom, that great glorious time when Jesus will be reigning on David's throne. We will be there with him and we will see creation in essence restored. So gentlemen, there is so much debate, there is so much confusion on when Jesus will return and how that relates to his millennial reign. What I want to do is just play a quick clip of an overview and then dive into the biblical evidence for the pre millennial return of Jesus. The to reign.
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F
Generally speaking, a premillennial believes that the book of Revelation describes a dark series of events that are yet to come in the future and will lead up to the coming of Christ described in chapter 19. Then the premillennial believes that once Jesus returns, there will be an actual 1000 years when he reigns as king of this earth. On the other hand, the post millennial theologian believes that Jesus will not return until after after his 1000 year reign on the earth. You might think that this sounds strange. How can Jesus reign on the earth for a thousand years if he's not here? But the post millennial does not see the 1000 years as a literal number and he does not view the reign of Christ during that time as a physical, in person sort of reign. Post millennials believe that Jesus is reigning right now through the Church, which the Bible refers to as his body, and that he has been reigning on the earth ever since he started the church 2,000 years ago. So they believe that the millennium described in Revelation 20 is taking place right now and that Jesus is reigning through his figurative body, the Church, even though he is not physically present. The post millennial will say that the phrase 1000 years is just God's figurative way of expressing to us that it will be for a long period of time. Then the amillennial theologian believes that the book of Revelation should be viewed from an idealist perspective. That means that the amillennial sees these prophecies as pictures of the kinds of things that all Christians from all times are always encountering. Every vision, beast, earthquake, demon, trumpet and seal in Revelation is to them a picture in some way of the Christian life. And so is the millennium in chapter 20. They don't just believe that the time period of a thousand years is figurative. The amillennial believes that the entire idea of that reign of Christ described there is completely spiritual. They argue that it is an entirely heavenly reign that Christians who have died are currently in heaven, reigning with Christ up there. They don't believe that this kingdom is on the earth at all. But they do still believe that Jesus will in fact return to the earth one day to bring the new heaven and new earth and reign forever in a literal sense from then on.
- [27:06]
B
You're listening to the extra cut of Discerning Our Days. Our guest today is Dr. Nathan Jones. Now, as you heard in that clip, gentlemen There are a few different views on when Jesus will return and reign in the millennium, or if he ever will, even brain. So can we walk our listeners through this reality? What do the Scriptures teach and why does an amillennial view or a post millennial view not make sense? Dr. Jones, can you walk us through the amillennial view and how that just does not make sense?
- [27:37]
C
Okay, well, as I said earlier, that you should be guided when you interpret the Bible. It's called hermeneutics, the art and science of interpreting the Bible. Good proper hermeneutics is to take the Bible literally. You know, if Jesus said literally, I am the way, the truth and the life, then we believe what he said literally. And that's the problem where amillennialism comes. Amillennialism takes God off his throne of authority and puts the interpreter on that throne to say what God meant or not meant to say. The very fact that we have so many churches in heresy and apostasy today is because that's what they've done. They've picked and choose like a buffet what they want out of the Bible and they spiritualize the rest into meaninglessness. And so that's where you get amillennialism. I really have very little mercy for the amillennial view because I often find that pastors who believe it are very lazy when it comes to studying it. Even some of my best friends will say, well, Jesus returns, and what more do I need to know? But the Bible is very detailed. I mean, the return of Jesus Christ is the most prolific teaching in the entire Bible, the most prolific prophecy. And so the very fact that Jesus promised that he will rule and reign physically on this earth for a thousand years and then on into the eternal kingdom should be taken literally because that's what God wants us to know. So if I'm a little heated with amillennialists, it's because, you know, there's just that intractable view that, that the Bible just can't be understood literally. And that's not how God wants us to understand his glorious promises for the future.
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B
Amen. Literally. That's the way we need to understand God's word and his promises. Mark, what is your perspective on amillennialism or amillennialism?
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E
Yeah. Well, the key is allegorizing verses taken literally. Now, let me just give you an illustration. There are allegorical things said in the Bible or figurative language. For example, Jesus says Herod is a fox. Well, you and I know that he wasn't a fox with fur and Running around with four legs. And so sometimes language is used that way, but it's understood when it's used that way. Parabolic language is understood when you read there, Jesus told a parable and then you give the parable and then the interpretation of the parable. But that's not what's happening in prophecy. Prophecy is about Isaiah 43, God says, you'll know me from the gods of this age because I know the beginning from the end. I'm going to tell you what's going to happen. I'm going to tell you what's going to happen unfold. No one else can do that. I don't know what I'm going to have for dinner next week. I don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't even know if I'm going to make it home safe today. But when God gives all of these details, for example, prophecies made about Jesus a thousand years before, for example, the resurrection, Psalm 16, Jesus is resurrected. There's a thousand years in there. Boy, talk about getting it right. And we just go on and on. So when you start to look at the millennial kingdom and it describes there the land boundaries and Israel being in the land, and the temple, for example, my AMEL friends, my post mill friends, they say, oh, you guys believe that? It says in Ezekiel 40, 48 that it's going to be another temple and there's going to be sacrifices. You're absolutely right because that's exactly what it says. There's going to be memorial sacrifices in the millennial kingdom that the Jews are going to do. And all of the nations are going to come and worship Jesus in Jerusalem and I've got a government job. It's going to be a great gig. But here's one that's just really obvious and that is, it describes in Isaiah, it says that the wolf will lie down with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the kid. Now I've been a lot of times in Africa, spent a lot of time in Africa. I've seen leopards, I mean, leopards out, you know, like hunting and killing things, right? The kids here are the goats. If you've got a bunch of little goats around and a leopard shows up, I'm telling you, someone's having lunch and it's not the goats. They're going to be lunch, okay? But that's not true in the Millennial Kingdom. It goes on and describes how kids are going to be holding on to snakes. What do I tell my kids? Don't Pick up a rattlesnake, boys. I mean, we've got a house, you know, in Southern California. And my grandsons will be out there, Josh. And I'm like, don't grab a rattlesnake. You'll get bit. You're going to die. You know, and we are not in the millennial kingdom. There is a millennial kingdom coming. How do I know that's going to happen? Because he's prophesied. He's promised it to Israel. He will keep his promise to Israel. God is not a liar. The church hasn't replaced him. Don't allegorize it. Can I just say this, that when you start to allegorize eschatology, it doesn't matter if you're Amel or post mill, but you start to allegorize the Book of Revelation, not take it in a literal fashion. Those denominations will move quickly to allegorize other areas of. Ooh, that's hard to take. So, for example, the doctrine of the church will start to be allegorized. And egalitarianism today, you look at churches that have eschatology, that has allegory, all of a sudden, now church practice has allegory. And, you know, we saw in the whole Covid scenario and so forth, the whole woke agenda has been embraced, not by dispensationalists, not by people like us who take the Bible literally. It's those who have been allegorizing the Bible in different places. And that allegorization just expands. And so when many of you reach out to Josh and I and say, hey, you know, my church is now woke, it's like, I know where it started. It started with allegory. And that has continued to, in a toxic way, take over people's understanding of the Bible.
- [33:03]
B
Absolutely. And we have to understand that God knows how to communicate and he is the best communicator ever because he's the author of life and communication and he's going to communicate clearly, concisely and precisely to his people.
- [33:21]
E
Yeah. God's not confused.
- [33:22]
C
No.
- [33:22]
E
And he's speaking so we have clarity.
- [33:25]
B
Amen.
- [33:26]
E
Not so we have confusion.
- [33:27]
C
Well, think about it this way. If everything that you said was allegorized, nobody would ever understand what you're saying. Why do we take each other literally when we say something? Taking account figures of speech and stuff like that, but when God says it, well, there must be some. Some deeper spiritual meaning that we don't understand. Well, that's going back to the old Gnostic heresies, heresies of the first century. And as Usual. It's, it's a case where people want, what's that old Simon and Garfunkel song? A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. And, and that's what amillennialism is. It's like, well, I don't like that. And I do like that, but I don't like that. And they pick and choose, and then they reinterpret, they spiritualize it to what they want it to say. And then they come up with them being the interpreter and you get crazy stuff like the Sparkle Creed or Gee, I was driving through Montana a few years ago and every church had, every Lutheran church up there had a gay pride flag out front. I mean, it's, it's insanity. And that's where amillennialism, the spiritualizing or allegorizing the interpretation of the Bible will take you. It'll always take you into doctrinal error.
- [34:34]
B
You're absolutely correct. Now, there's another area of belief when it comes to the millennium, and that's the post millennial return of Christ. Now, Dr. Jones, there's. With post millennialism, in essence, people believe that the church is going to make the world so much better, and we're going to usher in the, the second coming and the reigning of Christ Jesus. Is that scriptural. Can you walk us through postmillennialism for a moment?
- [35:04]
C
Okay. Well, in amillennialism, the individual Christian takes and steals God's glory and throne. With post millennialism, the church at large takes and steals God's glory and puts themselves on the throne. Now, I got to give post millennialism credit where it's due. In the 1800s and early 1900s, it was a major emphasis to get missions. I mean, most of the major missions of that time period were post millennial in nature. This desire that, hey, the church is going to conquer the world for Jesus, we're going to rule and reign over the world, and then we're going to hand the keys of the kingdom to Jesus when he comes back. But post millennial has really had his terrible fall by What? World War I, World War II, the Great Depression. The world wasn't getting better and better. It was getting worse and worse. The church was continuing to get persecuted more and more, and heresy continued to grow. And a post millennialism for most of the 20th century died. But it was raised again by kingdom now theology, or name it and claim it Dominion. Theology brought it back. This idea that, that the world is going to conquer. Excuse me, the church is going to conquer the world for Jesus Christ, and then we'll hand him a totally purified world. Guys, there's nothing in the Bible about that. Not one so ever. It is completely off the reservation when it comes to its interpretation of the Bible.
- [36:28]
B
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Everything that I read and everything that I see in the scriptures is everything is going to get worse and worse and worse, and then Jesus will come. Pastor Mark, can you help us from your perspective with post millennialism?
- [36:42]
E
Yeah, again, I was debating a friend, and he's a friend. You know, we're going to see him in heaven. He's. He believes in Jesus, but he's got this totally wrong. And don't be surprised because you and I both have things wrong. And that's why we got to go back to the Bible and we're refining our theology and we're growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. But as I was debating him, you know, he says, we're going to. Everything in the world is going to get better and better because the church's influence and the government's going to get better. And he's just going on and on with this. And I'm like, get better? I mean, have you read 2 Timothy chapter 3? It says, in the last days, difficult times are going to come and men will be lovers of self and lovers of pleasure and lovers of money. And it's describing something getting worse that's internal in Christendom. And then you read Romans, chapter one, and it talks about how the end, there's beginning, hearty approval and celebrating those who do wicked. Jesus said it this way, when he comes, it's going to be like the days of Noah, filled with violence and every evil thought. It's going to be like the days of lot, sexual perversion. I don't think that's getting better. And so, you know, he just sit there. He would literally just cross his hands. Mark, Mark, Mark. You just don't understand scripture. You just don't understand Scripture. I'm so like, well, deal with one of the passages right now. If Jesus is ruling and reigning, why does it say that in the Bible that he's seated at the right hand of the Father? Why does it say that he's coming in the Future in Matthew 25, on his glorious throne, it says, you will see him on his glorious throne. You just kind of go through these passages. And what I started to do, actually, Josh, is I started in Genesis and I just started talking about all the promises. And by the time I got up to, like, I don't know, I did a half a dozen of them, and he just blew them off. And I'm like, we will never be able to come to agreement because you're going to rationalize every single thing I said. I literally got out the map and I drew out, here's what's going to be promised Abraham from the great river of Egypt to the Euphrates River. I mapped that out. Here's the boundaries. I mean, I've written lots of contracts. He's a business guy. We understand you put the details in the contract. So we got this contract. And then he says, but the church right now has fulfilled that and the church is taking over the world. The very fact that you're living in Colorado, the very fact that you own property, you're fulfilling that promise that God made in Genesis chapter 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 17. I'm sitting there thinking, we will never agree. And that was the last time I actually debated him. I just. Like I was wasting my time.
- [39:13]
C
Yeah.
- [39:14]
B
There is an aspect, friends, that we have to understand that our time is precious and we ought not to quarrel words or to waste our time knowing full well that we're not going to be able to convince someone. So what do we do if they are a believer? They love the Lord Jesus Christ, and this is a matter where we can have equity. We have equity. We love our brother, and we move on knowing that there are more important things to be doing with our time.
- [39:39]
E
But you know those churches that have taught post millennialism through history, those denominations, they are liberal. I'm telling you, the creep of allegorizing those denominations right now, the vast majority of them do not teach the deity of Christ anymore. They do not teach the authority of the scripture anymore. They do not teach biblical godliness as described in the scripture. They don't teach justification by faith. Those things slip away. Not all of them, but it's the trajectory and it's the majority of them. And it should just be an example of the danger and the warning.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Now, Nathan Jones, we haven't dealt with in this segment pre millennialism. Why is premillennialism the. That Jesus will return before the millennium, he will inaugurate his kingdom? Why is that the most biblically sufficient answer for the millennial debate?
- [40:38]
C
Well, let me go back to what you guys said about, you know, we need to get along as Christians. There's certainly unity in that. And certainly the study of eschatology or end times isn't a primary doctrine like, say, soteriology, salvation, or the deity of Christ. Or the authority of the Bible that forth, and so on. But I think you guys have made a very excellent point, is how you interpret the Bible from a eschatological point of view vastly affects how you live, how you do church, what you believe, that you have even hope for the future, really, it's your worldview. Goggles with a premillennial view will help you understand these dark days. The Lord gave us signs of the end times that point to his soon return, and premillennialists take that seriously. We believe that when the Lord says that in the end times, wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, fearful events, signs in the sky, the return of Israel, the greater persecution of Christians would increase in frequency and intensity like birth pains, well, we take it to be exactly what he said, literally. It's literally going to happen. Another argument is that its historical premillennialism was the view of the early church fathers. Jesus and the Gospel writers, the apostles, the early church fathers believed in premillennialism. It wasn't until about the four hundreds where amillennialism started creeping in the church. And matter of fact, you couldn't disagree with it or you would be cast out of the Roman Catholic Church. So it was forced out for many years, but the Reformation brought it back. And that's where we get the term modern or dispensational premillennialism. Anyway, the angel told Daniel that in the end times there'd be a great increase in knowledge and travel and better understanding of prophecy as prophecies were fulfilled. And so our understanding of prophecy is increasingly getting clearer and clearer as all these end time events unfold, as all these signs of the times roll out, so that we have a better understanding of what's going on in the world. And it just fits, gentlemen. I mean, premillennialism, you've got the history, you've got the facts, and you've got the fact that it blends in with what's going on today. All proofs that it's the correct interpretation of the Bible.
- [42:55]
B
Amen. There's all kinds of views, there's all kinds of distinctions that people want to make. But I think as we bring this conversation to a conclusion, we have to come to the understanding that God is not a God of chaos or a God of confusion. He is a God of certainty and he speaks and his word is sufficient. And it tells us exactly how things are going to break down. And it is logical and there is conclusion there. Pastor Mark, can you quickly, in the next minute or so Share the gospel with our listeners.
- [43:30]
E
Yeah. You know, I don't know where you're at in your spiritual life, my friends, but what I know is this, is that Jesus Christ is the son of God. How do I know that? By his bodily resurrection. It's a declaration made by God. Let's face it, everybody in history has died, but only one's come back from the grave. Only one was seen by hundreds of people. Only one started a church. And here, 2,000 years later, we're still talking about him and we're anticipating him coming again. He died on that cross so that you and I might have everlasting life. He died as a substitute to pay for our sins. And the Bible says if you and I will believe in him, if we will trust in him, if we'll put our faith in him alone, not church, not baptism, not being good, not the apostolic fathers, not the traditions of churches, etc. But in Jesus Christ alone, God will give us the gift of everlasting life. Trust in Jesus. Call on his name. Jesus. I need you. I need you to save me. I need you to save me from sin. You died on that cross for sinners. I'm a sinner. And the best I know how, right now, I trust in you. Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved.
- [44:33]
B
Amen. And amen. Our guest today has been Dr. Nathan Jones of Lamb and Lion Ministries. Gentlemen, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for bringing clarity to. What the world will say is confusing, but the truth of the matter is this. Jesus, he will build his church and he will bring his promises to pass. Why? Because he is a sufficient and trustworthy savior. Well, if you would like to stay in connection with our guest today, Dr. Nathan Jones, you can find him@christin prophecy.org until next time. Remember, friends, what Jesus promised, what he warned against In Matthew, chapter 24 and verse 4, be sure that no one leads you astray.
- [45:17]
A
We are so glad you have joined us for discerning our days. This ministry was born out of a deep passion to bring biblical discernment in these troubling times. If you share that passion, we want to invite you to invest in this ministry. We are thrilled that we've been able to launch on various video platforms and on over 700 radio stations around the country. But we can't do this without your help. Your tax deductible gift. Gift today will enable us to continue to help believers everywhere passionately pursue Jesus and gain biblical wisdom and discernment so that we can thrive in a world full of confusion. And when you give, we'll send you seven keys to Godly Discernment. This digital download is filled with scripture references to help you understand what's going on in today's world from a Biblical perspective. Again, this this valuable resource is yours today as our thank you when you financially support the ministry of Discerning Our Days. To make your gift now, go to markhenryministries.com that's markhenryministries.com or call us at 612-208-9408 if you would like to mail a check. The address is P.O. box 190, Forest Lake, Minnesota 55025. By the way, Pastor Mark Henry has written a book that we believe every man should have. It's titled the Man Priorities Every Man Needs to Know A Biblical Blueprint for Putting God first, leading with integrity, loving your family well, and living with purpose. If you're ready to realign your priorities and become the man God has called you to be, don't wait. Click the link@markhenryministries.com to get your copy of Mark's latest book, the Man Code, available today. When you go to markhenryministries.com don't miss next week's program when we'll welcome Jeff Kinley as our guest.
- [47:14]
E
We hope you'll join us then.
- [47:16]
A
For Pastors Josh Schwartz and Mark Henry, I'm Matt Stockman. Thanks again for joining us and be
- [47:21]
E
sure to join us next time for
- [47:23]
A
discerning our
- [47:27]
C
on the cloud Shining like
- [47:30]
E
a sun at the time they fall. Lift your voice.