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The Rapture.
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Almost every year people make a prediction of when it will occur. Is it true that there will be a rapture? And if so, when will it take place? Today we'll examine what the Bible says and find out whether the rapture of the church is truly the blessed hope or just some heartbreaking hoax. From Mark Henry Ministries, this is Discerning Our Days. Now here are your hosts, Pastors Mark Henry and Josh Schwartz.
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Welcome to today's program. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz with Pastor Mark Henry and we are pleased to bring you another episode of Discerning Our Days. Well, our guest today is Tim Moore. Tim Moore serves as the chief Executive officer and senior evangelist of Lamb and Lion Ministries. He joined the Air force at age 17 to attend the United States Air Force Academy. And after graduating he completed pilot and immediately served as an instructor pilot for the T37 and the C130. I would love to talk to you about that, Tim, but that's not the the topic today. After that, Tim, you went in 2006 and were elected into Kentucky's state legislature as a state representative. And for 13 years you were there, an outspoken advocate for godly principles, championing life and traditional marriage and keeping government limited to its appropriate sphere. From there you resigned from legislative duties and became the director of Lamb and Lion Ministries. And we are so thankful to have you on the program today. Tim, welcome to the program.
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Josh, thank you very much. It's been a great blessing to be able to interact with you and of course Pastor Mark as well over these last number of months especially. But even the years that y' all been involved, I so appreciate your ministry and the fact that we are co laboring for Christ in such a time as this.
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C
Amen and Amen. Well, we have a great topic to cover today. It's the topic of the Rapture. Now the Rapture doctrine seems to be constantly debated and attacked. People predict it will happen every year and it seems even every month of the year. Yet what does the Bible clearly say? Is it true that there will be a Rapture? And if so, when will it take place? Is the rapture of the church the blessed hope or just a heartbreaking hoax? We will cover those questions and more today today on Discerning Our Days. Well gentlemen, I want to open the program with a clip. This clip is of NT Wright, the long standing New Testament scholar. And you might seem that N.T. wright is a very smooth spoken person and has it all together, but he is actually off base on a lot more than he is on base on. So let's listen to this clip and then dive into the topic of the rapture of the Church.
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I have been reading the New Testament on eschatology for a long time. And the more I became aware of what some people were saying about 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, which is where Paul talks about the Lord will descend with the cry of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet, and the dead in Christ will rise, and we who are left alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, so we shall ever be with the Lord. And the way in which that has been taken and become the linchpin of an entire theology theological scheme, even though it's not mentioned in the whole of the rest of the New Testament and even though that's not what that passage is all about. So it's been turned into a view which says that the main feature of the end times will be that God's people will be caught up on the clouds. And I remember a long time ago, Professor Robin Scroggs, who was professor in Union Seminary in New York, somebody asked him in a class in New York one day, Professor Scroggs, what is coming all about? And Scrogg said, one day you'll look out of the window and you'll see all these people going up in the air and you will say to yourself, well, I'll be damned. And I thought that was a wonderful response. But of course, that popular image of people floating up into the sky is a bizarre thing, which is nothing to do with New Testament theology, nothing to do with New Testament eschatology.
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So Again, that was Dr. N.T. wright and Tim Moore. The first question for you is this. Does the Rapture have anything to do with New Testament eschatology? And is it relevant for today?
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Certainly it is relevant for today. I would dare say it's been relevant throughout the church age, Even the apostles, when Jesus revealed to them what would happen in the immediacy of his death, burial and resurrection, they were already wanting to know what the signs would be of his coming and of the end of the age that's recorded in Matthew chapter 24. And immediately after he was resurrected and spent 40 days with them as he was about to ascend into heaven. Even at the beginning of Acts, they were asking, is it now that you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel and really bring about all the things you promised? And he said, it is not for you to know, but their anticipation of these promises being fulfilled hearkens all the way down through the years to us today. And I would disagree very vehemently with your, the speaker a moment ago. First of all, if you're getting your eschatology from Union University, you're liable to end up in a very dangerous and dare I say, heretical place. But there is multiple, there are multiple references to the promise of Jesus coming for his church. He knows how to rescue those who are his. And in the very last chapter of Revelation he says, I am coming. Yes, I'm coming quickly. Yes, I am coming quickly. And so the Lord is coming for who? For those who have put their faith and trust in Him. And this is not a one off promise. But even if it was mentioned only one, time is, as my parents used to say, how many times do they have to tell me before I hear and heed what they used to instruct when I was a child? The Lord should only need to tell us once. But he has made this promise clear throughout the totality of the New Testament for the church.
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Amen and Amen. Now, Pastor Mark, what are your thoughts here? Is the Rapture doctrine relevant for today?
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Absolutely relevant. And I just want to go Back to something N.T. wright said. First, number one. The rapture is not the main thing. The main thing is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Over 2,000 verses on that subject alone, Josh. But in the New Testament we got roughly 15 to 19 verses, depending on how you look at a couple of them on the subject of the Rapture. Now you could say, well, that's not important, it's trivial. It's not trivial. Anything that God determines that you and I need to know is not trivial. In fact, there's a principle in the Scriptures. It's found in Deuteronomy 29, 29. The secret things that God has not revealed belong to God, but the things that he has revealed are revealed so that you and I might keep his commandments. So when we look at a passage like first Thessalonians, which is a passage on eschatology, which specifically is talking about the removal so that we don't experience the wrath of the next group in chapter five, because remember, there's not inspired chapter breaks, it specifically says they are going to experience a wrath they will not escape, but we will escape. Why? Because of Harpazo, the catching away, the snatching away. And people say, well that's not found in the Bible. That is in the Bible also 1 Corinthians 15, also John 14 and Josh. I always like to tell people there are some examples of God snatching people away to accomplish His Will that like, no one ever talks about, like, Venti Ray was here. I was like, hello, sir, have you read Genesis chapter five? In Genesis chapter five, eight times, it says Adam dies. And then it goes through this list. All these people die. All these people. And then you get to Enoch and it says, he walked with God and God took him. And the contrast there is is that you and I are going to die naturally, or God's going to take us. And specifically with the church, which is a prophetic statement. Jesus says in Matthew 16, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail. The very fact that we're sitting here 2,000 years later, fulfilling that promise. And there is an eschatology for us, there's an eschatology for Israel. God's got a plan for Israel, God's got a plan for us. And the Rapture is a significant part of that found in the New Testament.
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Absolutely. Amen. And amen. Now, we've heard it referred to before the Rapture as our blessed hope. Now, Timur, why is the Rapture a blessed hope? Or is it just a heartbreaking hoax?
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No, it is a blessed hope. And really, when we cite that phrase, we're hearkening back to Paul's letter to Titus, when in chapter 2, verse 13, he says that we are to be looking for Jesus Christ, who is our blessed hope. I'll read it specifically right out of that passage, and I'll begin back in verse 11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Grace is not a concept, it is a person. In this case, Jesus Christ has appeared. He has brought salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires, to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age. That present age is stretched now for almost 2,000 years since the Lord ascended into heaven. And then he says, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus. So Mark hit it right on the head. The Rapture is a promise given to the church, but the even more glorious promise is given to Jesus Christ for his second coming. So there are two promises kind of combined. Here we are awaiting our snatching away, our rescue from the wrath to come. And Mark, I'm so glad that you mentioned the rest of the chapter there in 1 Thessalonians, because Paul makes a dramatic contrast between those who don't know the day or the hour, those who are in darkness, and we who know the Lord. And therefore, the day should not come upon us completely unexpectedly, we should discern the very signs of the times. And that is why we can encourage one another all the more. And so as we see that day drawing near, now I'm referencing the book of Hebrews, but as we see that day drawing near, we're able to encourage one another with the very promise that Jesus gave himself and through Paul and other writers of the New Testament, that he will rescue those who are his before he pours out wrath on the earth. And that is a blessed hope. And I've said many times it's not like hope in hope, as perhaps Oprah Winfrey used to, you know, condone, but it is hope in something more sure than this life itself. And that is God Almighty and the promises that he has made, which are yes and amen, we can trust them absolutely. And that's more sure than me talking to you today.
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C
Amen. Well, Pastor Mark, we've talked about how people maybe even deny the Rapture and don't see it as eschatologically important. Why? What is it about the rapture that you believe is one of the most important things to help us have this hope in Christ?
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Yeah. You know, when you think about the Rapture, we are anticipating things happening in the future. I mean, you're hoping that tomorrow comes and this is going to happen and so forth. And yet our world's broken. And the good news is that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us, and therefore our hearts should not be troubled. In fact, Jesus even commands us, let not your heart be troubled. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place, I will receive you to myself. And there, where I am, there you may be also. That is a rapture passage. I was with a pastor not long ago, and he didn't believe in a pre tribulational rapture and so forth. And so I read that passage to him. I said, you know, you got a m. Div, You've been to seminary. You know what's in the minor prophets. When you talk about the millennial kingdom. It's about Jesus coming, ruling, and reigning him, the government resting upon his shoulders. That is not what's being described there. It's a different event. And it's imminent. It's coming at any time. And we're. We're just sitting here serving the Lord joyfully and anticipating, crying, come, Lord Jesus. That is our hope. That is our anticipation. That's what we're looking forward to. And it's coming, Josh.
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Amen. It's coming and it could happen today, it could happen tomorrow, but we know that it's going to happen and we will get to be with Jesus face to face, whether through death or through rapture. Now gentlemen, as we continue this conversation, I think it's important to give our listeners biblical proofs that they can hold onto about the reality of the pre tribulation rapture. Now there are many voices out there and one of them, a loud one, is that of the Bible answer man Hank Hanegraaff. He is going to speak about how there is no biblical evidence for a rapture here in this clip. Let's listen to it and then I want to get both of yalls response.
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The pre tribulational Rapture theory is found nowhere in the Bible. Search as you may, you will not find this theory in any of the biblical texts in the Old Testament. In the New Testament there's not a single passage that speaks of Jesus coming to rapture the church seven years prior to the second appearing. Our Lord's own words negate the notion. Remember, Jesus said a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come out. Those who have done good will rise to live and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. So the plain and literal sense of our Lord's word suggests a moment in the future when both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected and judged by together. The notion that some believers will come out of their graves at the Rapture and others 1007 years later is clearly an imposition on the biblical text. It's unwarranted.
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You're listening to Discerning Our Days. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz along with Pastor Mark Henry and our guest today from Lamb and Lion Ministries is Tim Moore. You can find a lot about Mark Henry Ministries on our website. That's markhenryministries.com Now Tim, as we saw in the first half of this program, the doctrine of the Rapture is relevant for today. In this second half as I've mentioned before, let's walk our listeners through the biblical evidence for the rapture of the church and most specifically the pre tribulation rapture. Tim, what are some key passages that just scream from the rooftops the pre tribulation rapture of the church?
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Well, I think we've touched on one of the key ones and obviously the two gentlemen you've had on both NT Wright and Hank Hanegraaff unfortunately refused to accept Paul's writing there which is meant to give encouragement to the church at Thessalonica. Now I will point out as often due to people on our own program, Christ in Prophecy, that when Paul went and planted churches, he only spent a very brief time in Thessalonica before he moved on. But in a very few handful of weeks, he was already introducing these brand new Christians to the concept that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and that he is coming again to receive us to Himself. And they were excited about that promise because they were living under tribulation as new believers. Sometimes we lose concept of that here in the west, at least until present time. But they recognize that this is a promise that they could cling to. And so they heard rumors that perhaps the Lord had already come and they had been left behind. And that's why they wrote to Paul and He wrote both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians to clarify that teaching. But it is something that I've had pastors say, well, Tim, I'll get around to talking about eschatology eventually. Got so many other things to lay a foundation on. The foundational truth of the gospel is tied into the promise of Christ to come for those who are his. And so there's a reason that the rapture itself does not appear specifically in the Old Testament because it is a promise to church age saints, to those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ. And so again, 1 Thessalonians 4, we can talk about 1st Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 9 and 10, where Jesus says he knows how to rescue those who are his from the wrath to come. And you have to realize that the tribulation is when God will point his wrath and he does not intend to bloody up his bride, that being the church, and make her endure the outpouring of wrath. You say, well, brother, I've been experiencing tribulation little T to this point in my life. Yes, many have, especially in parts of the world where Christians are under attack each and every day. But none of us have experienced capital T wrath of God tribulation. And Jesus said that he would rescue us from before that is poured out. And so the other thing I would point out is to follow the logic that Hank is suggesting would be to say that there's one time when the Lord is going to return. He's going to call those who are his up and immediately they receive glorified bodies. But then that breaks down the promise that during the millennial reign of Christ, there will be people still in their mortal bodies who will have many, many children. So brothers, I would just Say that this is an age old tactic of Satan. In the garden, Satan challenged. Did God really say, and then he basically proclaimed, God lied to you, Adam and Eve. And then he said, you can be like God. So right now Satan would have believers challenge and question, did God really say, does his word really say that Jesus is going to rescue us from the wrath to come, that we will be delivered before God pours out his wrath in the tribulation? Well, some would deny that altogether. And some are, shall we say, so distracted that they have not seized onto that promise. But we are told to encourage one another and all the more as we see the various signs multiplying, that indeed Christ is coming for us soon and very soon. We can talk about other promises given to the Jews, promises given to Jesus Christ himself. But for you and for I who have put our trust in Christ during the church age again, these passages point to the blessed hope, the guarantee that Christ is coming for us and he's going to rescue us before that wrath is poured out.
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Amen. Now, Pastor Mark, what are some other verses that lead to a pre tribulation rapture?
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Yeah, well, the first thing I would say, Josh is just kind of reflecting. There is such a condescending spirit among many when he started talking about prophecy. And I don't know if anybody's reflected on Hebrews chapter six, but it says it's time to leave the elementary teachings of Christ, the ABCs. And then it lists what those ABCs are. Let's press on to maturity. Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God, instruction about washing, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. He says right there in the passage, that's the ABCs. This is what children talk about. It's time to grow up and move on. You know when he mentioned people being resurrected in this thousand years, you know, 1,007 years between them, I mean, right in Revelation chapter 20, it talks about the resurrection of those who are martyred, who go into the millennial kingdom. Abraham is going to be resurrected. All those promises are going to be fulfilled to Israel. At that time the church has already been raptured and resurrected. There's going to be that reunion on earth serving. And at the end of the thousand years, hello. Revelation 20 says at the end they will be raised all of those who have rejected Christ, those from those who are in hell, those who are in those who their souls are in hell, in Hades, and those who are in the ocean and so forth, all of them are going to be raised great and small are going to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ. And because their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, they are going to be cast in the lake of fire which burns forever and ever. There are sequences of resurrections throughout. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. Yet there were others that were raised before that. I would simply suggest that is a too much of a simplistic. And this is what often happens, Josh is people want to compress everything and, I don't know, make a meatloaf out of it. There are specific things on the plate that God has for us as a church, things for Israel, and we need to leave them with the distinction that God gives them Scripture. That's how you honor God. That's being respectful of what Jesus says. Amen. Amen.
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Amen. I totally agree, Tim. What do you have to say to that?
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I couldn't agree more. We do have to move beyond the elementary teachings, but we need to stay grounded in the word of God. We're not building a house of cards with wild speculation. We're just following the clear teaching of Scripture, kind of the golden rule of prophetic interpretation. If the plain sense makes sense. Don't look for any other sense lest you end up with nonsense. I'll add one other verse, and this comes from the testimony of Jesus Christ. These are other red letters. If you're in a red letter edition, and that's chapters two and three of Revelation, we know that these are letters dictated the apostle John while he was on Patmos. And in Christ's letter to the church at Philadelphia, he says this. In chapter three, verse 10, he says, because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell on the earth. And so you have to ask a question. Historically, has there ever been an hour of testing that has come upon the entire earth? Not yet. Not since the flood. And yet this promise will be fulfilled. And so then you ask, is it a promise only to those Christians in Philadelphia? I believe by extension, the Lord is saying, this exemplar church in Philadelphia is exemplifying Christians throughout the age of the church, who, due to their perseverance of trusting in Christ and awaiting his promises to be fulfilled, will be delivered from that hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole earth. And so again, it fits hand in glove with understanding that we are not destined for wrath, but rather we have received the mercy of Christ. I've actually had people say, well, we don't deserve his mercy. And we could go down the rabbit trail and those same people will say, well, Israel doesn't deserve God to keep his promises. And my answer is, you're right, I don't deserve God to be faithful to me. That's the good news of the Gospel. Because I have accepted Christ. His shed blood covers my sins, and his promises are greater than my faithlessness. And so I trust in him, not on my own righteous deeds or my ability to be or stay righteous. That is the good and glorious news of the Gospel. And therefore there is no condemnation for those who put their trust in Christ. And even straight out of Romans, there is another promise that we are not destined for wrath, nor for condemnation.
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C
Amen. Yeah. Romans 8, 8, 1. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Gentlemen, thank you so much for this conversation. It was relevant and deeply needed in today's confused culture. Welcome to the Extra Cut of Discerning Our Days. We're so glad you are joining us. This is a great time to have a deeper conversation with this week's guest. Welcome back to the Extra Cut of Discerning Our Days. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz along with Pastor Mark Henry, and our guest today is Tim Moore from Lamb and Lion Ministries. And in the first half, we dealt with the relevancy and the biblical arguments for the Rapture. In this, the third part, the extra cut, what we really want to do is to dive deeper, to dig in a bit more on the other rapture views and, and why they're errant according to the Biblical scriptures. So, gentlemen, to. To set the scene, I want to play a clip, just an overview of different Rapture views and then we'll dive right in.
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Is the Rapture before, in the middle, or after what Jesus calls the Great Tribulation, a time so dark in his own words and such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now. No, and never will be. The Book of Revelation paints a terrible picture for humans at this time, including people who will become believers in this time, especially the Jews. Jesus himself said that those days will be so severe that if not cut short, no human being would survive. The question is, will we as Christians have to go through this time Pre trib, which means the Rapture will come before the Great Tribulation. Many believe that we will be raptured before the tribulation starts, the mid Tribulation, or also called the pre Wrath. Basically, they believe that as Christians, we will endure the persecutions of the Antichrist. But we will be raptured before the day of God's wrath. Post Trib the Rapture after the Great Tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then here he comes, will appear in heaven, the sign of the Son of Man.
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C
You're listening to Discerning Our Days. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz, and as you just heard, there are all kinds of different views on the Rapture and each of them uses slices of the Scripture to try and defend their position. But truly, God is not a God of confusion. He's not a God of chaos. He's a God of order. And there is clearly one way. And the true biblical answer to when the Rapture is going to take place has been discussed as before. It is a pre tribulation rapture. God's wrath was not ordained for his church. We will be taken out of here before the wrath is poured out from Revelation chapter six. But gentlemen, there are so many other views and so many other people that hold these viewpoints and they think that they're holding them to what the Scriptures say. So let's work through these and help our listeners understand how their errant views. So first and foremost, Tim, can we deal with the pre Wrath Rapture view? Can you give us a quick overview of the pre Wrath Rapture view? And then let's discuss as to how this is probably not the best view to hold.
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D
The pre Wrath Rapture posits that the Lord does not pour out his wrath till the midpoint of the tribulation. And they vary just a little bit. But basically, as you heard indicated a moment ago, they would suggest that the beginning of the tribulation is the Antichrist consolidating his power using his own authority on the earth. And so Christians will be subjected to tribulation, Little turkey, during the period of great tribulation, or capital T I should say. And yet that does not represent the wrath of God. The problem with this analysis is it is none other than Jesus Christ who breaks the seals in the seven seal judgments. And the first one is when a rider is sent forth, understood to be the Antichrist who wields in the second, third and fourth seals. The ability to wage war, the ability to bring famine on the earth, and the ability to strike down many with death. As a matter of fact, one fourth of the world's population and it says he is given authority. Who gives him this authority to be an instrument of God's outpouring of wrath? None other than Jesus Christ. And by the end of this series of seal judgments in Revelation chapter 6, specifically in verse 16, even those who are suffering under this period of wrath recognize that it is the wrath of the Lamb they are enduring. You'd think, well, if they understand that, why don't they come to their senses and repent? That's because, as Billy Graham said, the same sun that melts the butter hardens the clay. And so some will turn to the Lord in repentance and accept Christ. Others will just clench their teeth, curse God and wish to die, hoping that the rocks and the mountains would hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. And so here again, we have to recognize what is the purpose of the tribulation. The purpose, first and foremost, is so that righteousness will be upheld. God will pour out what is deserved on an unrepentant world after the church has been removed as the restrainer of evil in the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. But the second thing is, even in wrath, God remembers mercy. So his motive is not just to pound people into the ground, but to drive them to the end of themselves. You can think of Job, excuse me, Jonah, is a better example. You can think of the Prodigal Son who came to the end of themselves and then repented and turned back to God. Some will, many during the tribulation. And then there's also a great Gospel purpose during the tribulation of the Lord, taking the Jewish people to the end of themselves so that that remnant that remains will look upon him who they have pierced, weep as over an only son and cry out, baruch haba b' shem Adonai. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. So during the tribulation, there are many purposes, but part of that purpose is not to bloody up the bride of Christ, because there is, as we said previous in the other segment, no condemnation for those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ. And so this preacher wrath rapture scenario ignores the fact that all of the wrath being poured out during the entirety of the Tribulation is unleashed, authorized and poured out by Jesus Christ according to the will of the Father. So it's not like the first half is not God's wrath. The second half is. All of it is the wrath of God.
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C
Amen. You're absolutely right. Now, Pastor Mark, we were discussing earlier, 1 Thessalonians, chapter 1, can you walk us through 1 Thessalonians, chapter one, specifically the last two verses there, nine and ten, where it is clear that we will be taken away from the wrath.
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A
Yeah, it's an amazing passage because Paul goes and starts the church there, and he's obviously instructed them on these things, and he commends them that they've turned from idols to the living and true God. But then he says this, that they're eagerly waiting for Jesus, who will deliver us from the wrath to come. There has to be some specific wrath. Now, some people would say, oh, well, that must be the wrath, that penalty of hell. But when you read the context of the book, that's not the context. In chapter five, it talks about another group that's not going to be rescued. It says there's a group that is going to be saying during the day of the Lord. When the day of the Lord comes, it will come like a thief in the night. They will be saying peace and safety, and it will come upon them suddenly like a woman with child, and they will not escape. Now, the pronouns are really important. You know, in the old days, Josh, we used to talk about pronouns and people would roll their eyes and like, oh, it's pronouns. You're just. That's. You're just trying to read into the Scriptures. No, pronouns are really important. It talks about we, the church, being rescued from the wrath. And then it talks about a group that is not rescued from the wrath. Specifically, they will not escape the wrath. And the wrath is the days of the tribulation. And I would just suggest just a. Just an overview reading of the book of Revelation 19 times. The church is mentioned in the first three chapters and then in chapter four, when it talks about the future things, talks about the tribulation and so forth all the way to the end. The church is not mentioned until the very last chapter. Again, it talks about Israel. It talks about people believing Jesus. It talks about the 144,000. It talks about the two prophets preaching. It talks about all kinds of things. Talks about the seal judgments, the trumpet judgments, it talks about the bowl judgments, but it doesn't mention the church. Why? The church has been raptured. It's been spared from that wrath. We are with the Lord and we are coming back with him in glory, power and majesty in Revelation 19. And that's when, after that, he's going to set up his millennial kingdom.
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D
Amen.
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C
And praise God for that. It is clear as you just take God at his word chronologically and literally read through it. It makes a lot of sense, taking God pronouns, mattering the nouns, mattering the verbs, mattering, all of the grammar that we were taught in elementary school matters for a reason. Right.
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A
And not just like reading church history, because that's what, quite honestly, that's what happens when you go to seminary. They have you read all this church history. They have you read all of this extra biblical writings and then it's forced back in. Well, the Bible doesn't teach that. I've had people roll their eyes. You don't understand the flow of Scripture. I'm like, read the text. The passage says, thus says the Lord. All of these verses mean something and they cannot be rationalized. They should not be rationalized away.
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C
Amen. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for working through that for our listeners, for me to understand. Take God at his word, deal with the things as they come. Recognize that wrath is going to come. The church is going to be taken out before the wrath. But the wrath starts at the beginning of the tribulation period.
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A
Absolutely. And just one thing to add to that. You know, Tim answered the question about the pre wrath rapture. That's really the three quarter view. The mid trib view is all around the trumpet judgments. And as you read the book of Revelation, it is very difficult to figure out exactly where the middle is. Good men, good theologians. John Wolvert, for example, said it was in chapter six and I think it was in the fourth seal judgment. As I recall, Dr. Pentecost said it was later. I mean, it's not as clear as all of us would like. And so we have to give people a little space and grace. But what happens with the mid trib folks? And wrongly so again, because the wrath is already poured out. They would say the wrath doesn't start until the last trumpet. And it talks about the trumpet, the Last Trump in 1 Thessalonians, it talks about the Trump in 1 Corinthians 15. But just be mindful that those trumps are not the same trumps. They're not Donald Trump. They're not the same trumps. They're different trumps. And it's the last trump in first Thessalonians at that Rapture. It's not the last trumpet judgment. And so we got to be careful. We don't like lay all these things on top of themselves and we have confusion.
- [34:15]
C
Yeah, thank you for making that distinction because I've gotten so many comments about the final trumpet. And there is a distinction and it will sound and the Lord knows when these things will take place. We cannot just throw Our judgment on that. We have to take God at his word. Now. Tim, is there anything you want to add to that with the mid tribulation rapture view?
- [34:35]
D
Yeah, I really would just say I appreciate so much what Pastor Mark just said, and he is right. The church does not appear throughout the entirety of Revelation after chapters two and three. And I think it's very telling, as a matter of fact. I just think this is a beautiful picture and the Lord loves to give us pictures and types. So at the beginning of chapter four, after these letters have been dictated to the seven churches representative of churches throughout the church age. Obviously these were not the only seven churches even in that day and age. So Jesus had John record letters to churches in that area of Asia Minor, but they are indicative of churches. But then in chapter four, obviously there's a shift. Then after these things, John says, I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven. And. And the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, there's another trumpet, Mark saying, come up here and I will show you what must take place after these things. So we go back to the sort of the table of contents for the book of revelation. In chapter 1, verse 19, where John is going to write the things which he had seen, chapter one, the things which are chapter two and three, and the things which will take place after these things. That's chapter four and following. And it says that John records immediately he was in the Spirit and a throne was standing in heaven, and one sitting on the throne. And I contrast what John experiences as he is ushered in the twinkling of an eye, sort of being raptured, if you will, into the very throne room of heaven. Unlike Isaiah, who recognized his sinfulness, his wickedness, I am a man of unclean lips. I come from a people of unclean lips. Woe is me. John doesn't say woe is me because he has put his trust in Jesus Christ. And as we've already said, citing Romans 8. One, there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So John doesn't have to feel woe is me. Now, he does want to worship, and he stands in awe, but he doesn't have this sense of guilt. And brothers, that's the glorious good news for us who have put our trust in Christ. There is no guilt. There's no reason that we should be subjected to a period of some tribulation, kind of a Protestant purgatory, if you will, on the earth to cleanse us of our sins. The blood of Christ was All sufficient to do that for us throughout the church age. And so when Christ says, come up here to those who are His, I hope he calls all y' all with me at the same time. But even if he just calls me singly at the end of my mortal life, I look forward to going to be with him and to receive no condemnation, but to be in his presence forever and ever. That's the promise of the rapture. And so yes, whether it's pre wrath, as you said Mark later in the tribulation sequence, or mid trib, if they can pinpoint when that is, each of those assumptions would have us on the earth to suffer under the wrath of God. And that just does not hold with the promise of the Gospel, with the fact that there is no condemnation for us in Christ.
- [37:37]
C
Yeah, we have again, we have to take God at His word. If there's no condemnation and we will be rescued from the wrath, why would we have to endure it? Now there's another aspect, a tribulation rapture view, if you will, and it's the post Trib rapture view. Can we walk the audience through that? What that proclaims to believe and why this that again, a post tribulation rapture just doesn't make sense biblically. Tim, can you give us an overview of the post Trib rapture?
- [38:06]
D
Yeah. The post Trib rapture would say that at the end of the tribulation, those who have endured that seven year period, and again, we take literally seven years that they would endure to the end, and then the Lord would say, okay, you have endured, you persevered, and therefore I will give you a glorified body, there's a problem with this. However, as I kind of hinted earlier, if everyone who lives to the end of the tribulation as followers of Christ is given a glorified body who would enter the millennial kingdom in their natural body to be able to procreate and repopulate the earth once the sheep and the goats are separated, who would be able to live in their mortal bodies as long as a tree and not be subjected to all of the perils that we know this earth right now due to the curse. So when that curse is lifted, we're told that those who enter the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies will be reigned over by Christ and all of his saints of the church age who are co reigning with Christ, the world will be ushered into a period of peace, righteousness and justice as waters cover the sea unlike anything we've seen since the Garden of Eden. And so again, you have to totally undermine the promise that there will be mortals entering that millennial kingdom, that there will be people to reign over. If you ascribe to a post tribulation rapture view, yeah, there are a lot
- [39:33]
C
of distinctives that the scriptures lay out that just aren't met. Mark, can you comment on that?
- [39:39]
A
Yeah, I think a couple things happen, Josh. One is again, people start reading church history. And I'm all four reading church history, by the way. But you know, Augustine came out in the 4th century with the city of Argat. And that started really the whole idea of allegorizing eschatology and so forth. And the church replaces Israel. And so my friends, who, for example, are Amel or post millennial, that's going to be their view. And then when they get to this subject, it's like, well, since the church has replaced, then either we're in the millennium or there's going to be a millennium. But there really is no rapture. We're just looking forward to the second coming. And that really is the big thing, the second coming. It's true, the second coming is the big thing. But what they missed is that the church was a mystery in the Old Testament. Read Ephesians chapter three. And so there's Revelation. That's what the Bible does. It's progressive revelation, just giving us more of God's information again, God revealing more that we, we need to know. Deuteronomy 29:29. So here's a couple of things I always say to my friends who are post trip. They always say, you just want to escape, Josh. You just want to escape. Well, of course I want to escape the wrath of God. If you're going to hit me with a baseball bat, I'm going to try to escape. Right? But God in his graciousness says, hey, I've got a plan. You're going to escape this wrath. But my wrath will come upon the whole globe. And it talks about those who are dwellers on the earth. It talks about him saving people from different nations. It talks about him saving Israel. A third of Israel will be saved. We know in Romans it says all of Israel. At the end they will see him whom they appear. Zechariah 14. And they will believe in him. A third of all of Israel is going to make it through. And they are going to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is going to be a great blessing to them. Of course we want to escape. I want to escape hell and I want to escape any other wrath or any other malady I would like to escape. For example, driving home today, I really don't want to get in an accident. Right, you would try to escape that. So that's not crazy. It's not foolish. It's actually good. It's actually wise. If you're saying there, I don't want to escape, you're crazy. You're crazy. With all due affection, you're crazy. The second thing is my post Trib friends, they'll say it in different ways. Some will say, well, I am looking for the Antichrist. Friends, we are not to be looking for the Antichrist. We are looking for Jesus. Eagerly awaiting Philippians chapter 3. Eagerly awaiting the Lord Jesus Christ. First Thessalonians, chapter 1. Eagerly awaiting Jesus Christ. Titus chapter 2. Eagerly awaiting Jesus Christ. And that's the imminent return of Jesus Christ. That's why we're pre trip before the Tribulation takes place. We are looking for Jesus. Now this is very important. The key sign, the apex of all the signs, the Mount Everest of all signs, signs of the last days, is the abomination of desolation. It is true that if you're living through the Tribulation, the sign you need to be looking for is not Jesus showing up. It is the sign that precedes that by three and a half years. When the Antichrist goes into the temple, desecrates the temple, sets himself up as God. That's what you're looking for. But we're not in the tribulation, we're in the church age. Jesus is building for himself a church from every tribe, tongue and age. That's a future tense. I will build my church. So that's what he's doing. And again, if you look in Revelation chapter four, after he gets done talking to the churches, what do you find? A great crowd of people from every tribe, tongue and nation who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb. Worshiping God in heaven. Worshiping Jesus in heaven. Why? Because we're waiting to come back with the Lord Jesus Christ after the seven year tribulation.
- [43:17]
C
Praise God. That is what we're looking forward to. We are looking forward to seeing Jesus and then reigning with him in the millennial kingdom and then being with him for eternity. Friends, that is the good news of the Gospel. If you have not placed your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, we beg you to do so. He came. He lived a perfect life. He died a perfect death. A substitutionary death in your place. That if you would call on him, he would take you to be with Him. He just simply faith Alone, belief alone in the Lord Jesus, perfect work alone will give you eternal life. Why? Because he resurrected as a guarantee that he was the perfect atoning sacrifice. Gentlemen, thank you so much for the conversation today. Tim, I just want to give you a couple of minutes for any final words on the blessed hope of the pre tribulation rapture.
- [44:07]
D
Well, Jesus Christ is indeed my blessed hope. I so appreciate what Mark said about we're not to be looking for the Antichrist. That's sort of a parlor among some prophecy teachers. Who is the Antichrist? And my answer is we won't know. The world cannot know until the church, the restraining influence here has been taken out of the way. And that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit won't be active, but he will not be working through the church during the tribulation. No, we are to keep our eyes on Jesus Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith, and not be distracted. Satan would like to pull our eyes off of Christ just as he did with Peter walking on the waves. And you remember when Peter took his eyes off of Christ, then he began to sink. And so if we keep our eyes on Christ, we have our focus in the right place. And I just go back to what Paul testified to my namesake Timothy in second Timothy 4, 8. He said, in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. And folks, I don't believe that's just his past appearing who have loved and anticipated his next appearing for us. As I said, he may call me home tonight. And if he does, Mark and Josh are all are invited to the big party my family's going to throw at my home going, but if he calls all of us together at the Rapture, what a glorious joy that will be. And I am looking forward to that. The one thing I will say again building on what Mark already indicated, is I didn't study a lot of man's writings about the Rapture when I was first introduced to this glorious concept. I went to the Word of God and I just read it for its plain sense. And it was apparent to me that Jesus is returning. He's promised to come for me and to all who put their trust in him. And I want that crown of righteousness. Friends, you may say, well why would you want a crown of righteousness? Well, I don't know what other crowns will be bestowed, but when it comes time for all the saints to gather around the throne and cast their crowns at an act of worship. I at least want that crown credited to me from Christ's infinite store of righteousness so that I can give it back to Him. And that's why I am eagerly awaiting my blessed hope, Jesus Christ. And I'm determined to keep my eyes on him and until he calls me and hopefully all y' all with me home.
- [46:32]
C
Amen. Well gentlemen, again thank you so much for this conversation today. Tim, Mark, thank you both for your devotion to the Scriptures, your desire to teach the truth and equip the saints for the work of ministry, and to proclaim that we do have a blessed hope, the pre tribulation rapture of the Church. Now again, our guest today has been Tim Moore of Lamb and Lion Ministries. If you would like to stay connected with Tim Mo Tim Moore, you can find him@christinprophecy.org until next time, Remember what Jesus says there in Matthew 24, verse 4. Be sure that no one leads you astray.
- [47:08]
B
We are so glad you have joined us for Discerning our days. This ministry was born out of a deep passion to bring biblical discernment in these troubling times. If you share that passion, we want to invite you to invest in this ministry. We are thrilled that we've been able to launch on various video platforms and on over 700 radio stations around the country, but we can't do this without your help. Your tax deductible gift today will enable us to continue to help believers everywhere passionately pursue Jesus and gain biblical wisdom and discernment so that we can thrive in a world full of confusion. And when you give, we'll send you seven keys to Godly Discernment. This digital download is filled with scripture references to help you understand what's going on in today's world from a Biblical perspective. Again, this valuable resource is yours today as our thank you when you financially support the ministry of Discerning our Days. To make your gift now, go to markhenryministries.com that's markhenryministries.com or call us at 612208 9408. If you would like to mail a check, the address is P.O. box 190, Forest Lake, MN 55025. By the way, Pastor Mark Henry has written a book that we believe every man should have. It's titled the Man Priorities Every Man Needs to Know A Biblical Blueprint for Putting God First, Leading with integrity, loving your family well, and living with purpose. If you're ready to realign your priorities and become the man God has called you to be. Don't wait. Click the link@markhenryministries.com to get your copy of Mark's latest book, the Man Code, available today when you go to markhenryministries.com Next time on Discerning Our Days, Tim Moore's ministry partner, Nathan Jones will join us to to talk about one of the most glorious times still to come in human history, the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. We hope you'll join us then. I'm Matt Stockman. On behalf of pastors Josh Schwartz and Mark Henry, thanks for being.
- [49:33]
C
Life.
- [49:34]
D
Give up.
- [49:44]
C
Running on.