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- [00:02]
A
Think about the Bible like you never have before. You're listening to Christian Questions. Access more audio videos and Bible Study resources@christianquestions.com Our topic is Should Women be Pastors? Here's Rick, Jonathan and Julie.
- [00:20]
B
Welcome everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co host for over 25 years, and Julie, a longtime contributor, is also with us. Jonathan, what's our theme scripture for this episode?
- [00:29]
A
Galatians 3:27 29 for all of you who were baptized into Christ hath clothed yourself with Christ. There's neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free man. There's neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise.
- [00:53]
B
The world has changed dramatically over the last 2,000 years. If you're accessing this podcast information, then the world you live in has gone from a very localized environment where the fastest news traveled was by horseback or boat, to a society of instant access for all news and information. Your world has transformed from a patriarchal society where men represented the vast majority of power and influence in life to a society that continues to make all roles equally available for both men and women. So has Christianity kept up with the times? Have we made all roles, specifically the role of pastor and teacher in the church, equally available to both men and women? If your church has, should they have? If they haven't, then why not? Well, there's a clear scriptural answer for all of this.
- [01:44]
C
Yeah, well, there's two major positions in the Christian world, and both sides genuinely believe they're honoring Scripture. It's called egalitarian and complementarian. Now, egalitarians say men and women are equal in value and equal in calling. God assigns roles based on spiritual gifts like teaching, shepherding, leadership, not gender. Women may serve as pastors or elders, depending on gifting and calling, but complementarians say men and women complement each other. They're equal in value, but God assigns different roles. So a person might be gifted to teach or lead, but the gifting doesn't automatically determine the office. Women should not serve as pastors or elders because the roles are tied to biblical structure and not gifting.
- [02:33]
A
Restating our theme question with more details, should women serve as pastors or elders regarding congregational teaching, and should they have governing authority? To be transparent up front, our belief is that the Scriptures support the complementarian view that women should not serve in a teaching or governing role in a church setting.
- [02:56]
B
There you have it. So let's begin with A summation of some of the arguments used by those who see the roles of men and women in Christianity as generally interchangeable. So we're going to begin by expressing the egalitarian perspective of this whole question.
- [03:14]
C
And remember, both sides value women. This is about how each side interprets Scripture, about authority, teaching and church order. So the core question is, are these determined by spiritual gifts alone or the role structure the Bible gives us? So the first egalitarian point. Men and women are equal in value and equal in access to ministry roles. Let's look at Galatians 3, 27 and 29.
- [03:41]
A
For all of you who were baptized into Christ, hath clothed yourself with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free man. There is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. The Apostle Paul does plainly state, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- [04:08]
C
Seems pretty clear. So the argument is there's old roles, old distinctions are now gone, and this newness should apply to leadership as well.
- [04:16]
B
So that's the argument. And again, you look at that we're all one in Christ. It's a very plain, very simple, very straightforward statement. That's the first point from the egalitarian point of view. So, Julie, what is the next point that we're going to consider? And we're going to go through these one at a time and look at Scriptures and have that discussion. What's the second point?
- [04:38]
C
There were many women in leadership roles in both the Old and New Testaments. For example, Deborah was an Old Testament judge of the people. She was also a prophetess. Halda was an Old Testament prophetess as well.
- [04:50]
A
And in the New Testament, Priscilla and her husband Aquila taught Apollos and traveled with Paul into great danger. What about Phoebe? She was very faithful and a responsible servant of the early church.
- [05:02]
C
Junia was another outstanding example of living a life of Christian sacrifice. She shows up in the New Testament
- [05:09]
B
and there's many, many, many others. You look at this, say, yes, there's lots of women who are stepping out in front, showing you the way things are done in certain areas. You've got some credibility there. What do we do with that? Well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Julie, what's the third point on the egalitarian perspective?
- [05:27]
C
Well, God distributed spiritual gifts without regard to gender, and leadership should follow gifting. So here's an example. When the Spirit came upon the apostles at Pentecost. And they began speaking in tongues. Peter Peter quotes Joel's prophecy to explain what was happening. That was in Acts 2:16, 18.
- [05:46]
A
But this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel. And it shall be in the last days. God says that I will pour forth my spirit on all mankind. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. Even on my bond slaves, both men and women. I will in those days pour forth my spirit, and they shall prophesy, sons
- [06:11]
C
and daughters, both men and women. So egalitarians point out that if women could publicly prophesy, then teaching should also be open to them. And just for clarification, prophesy doesn't necessarily mean telling the future. The core meaning is to speak on God's behalf, to declare his truth, his will, or his correction.
- [06:31]
B
Again, what you're doing is we're looking at this Old Testament prophecy that's cited in the New Testament, and it's putting men and women in a lot of ways on an equal basis.
- [06:41]
C
And if we look at the broader teaching on gifts, none of these passages restrict gifts to only men. So let's take a look at 1st Corinthians 12, 7, 11, 28.
- [06:53]
A
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, and to another faith by the same Spirit, and another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, and to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually, just as he wills. And then in verse 28 and God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helps administrations, various kinds of tongues.
- [07:48]
C
And Please add Romans 12, 6 and 9.
- [07:51]
A
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good.
- [08:04]
C
So an egalitarian would say, God himself arranged the gifts and the roles within the church, and he gave these gifts broadly to the whole body without specifying gender.
- [08:16]
A
Yes, while gifts are given broadly to the whole body, while offices are assigned narrowly for the order and protection of the body. Gifting shows ability, office shows responsibility. They're not the same thing.
- [08:29]
B
Now, when we look at this from that egalitarian point of view, though, what they're saying is, look, you've got all of this equality everywhere to be seen. It makes sense that it just needs to go further. Now, folks, you notice that we're going through these points and we're not responding to anything because we want you to see this perspective and very clearly according to scripture and actual reasoning. So we've got one more point, Julie, that's actually from the egalitarian point of view that's made up of some smaller points. So let's get started with that. What's that fourth point?
- [09:03]
C
Well, based on these reasonings, there's a bunch of other points to consider. What do you think, Rick? There was a few that we talked about earlier.
- [09:09]
B
Yeah. First, Christians are redeemed from sin and death. Therefore, the new creation should have a new equality. It makes sense. All redeemed from sin and death.
- [09:19]
C
All.
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B
All therefore should have that new equality.
- [09:22]
A
Also, there are several New Testament scriptures we will look more closely at that advise Christian women to learn in silence. You know, the argument is because this contradicts every aspect of freedom in Christ, they must be referring only to the specific culture in context.
- [09:41]
B
Okay, and then you've got a third point. Why keep women from using her teaching gift if it's a gift from God, Why would you do that? If God is giving you something, why don't you say, well, God's given it to you. Obviously you need to use it.
- [09:57]
C
Yeah. And today in many churches, women are already leading much of the ministry. They do children's work and prayer. They're very good at counseling, hospitality, missionary work. So many congregations would struggle without their leadership. So some ask, if women already do most of the ministry, why not just recognize it formally?
- [10:16]
B
We've got these four points. We've stated them without responding because we want to understand the perspective. So we're going to go through this one point at a time and look at it as best as we can through the lens of Scripture. So at this point, let's put things in order and begin establishing the scriptural role of women in the true church.
- [10:38]
A
It is clear that there can be many viewpoints regarding the expansiveness of women's roles in our Christian church communities. As we proceed to clarify these questions, we need to be open to receive not only what the Scriptures say, but also what they mean across thousands of years of Christian history.
- [10:58]
B
Across thousands of years of Christian history. In other words, scriptures were spoken 2,000 years ago. Much later in time. Do those Scriptures mean exactly what they sound like. What is the bottom line in accordance with with God's Word? For us here today, this topic promises to be fascinating and emotional. It's at its core extremely fundamental and important for our understanding.
- [11:26]
A
It's time to dig in. So let's start with our theme text. Does being equal in Christ mean that all roles are open to all Christians?
- [11:35]
B
This is an important foundational place for us to begin. Paul in Galatians does without a doubt level the playing field regarding being in Christ. Now we need to understand what this newly acquired equality actually means so we can rightly apply it to our lives.
- [11:56]
C
So let's go back to the egalitarian point one and really look at it. Men and women are equal in value and equal in access to ministry roles. So let's just reread our theme Scripture, Galatians 3, 27 and 29.
- [12:10]
A
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. There's neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free man. There's neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
- [12:30]
B
First point, level playing field. Absolutely, level playing field. And this is one of the scriptures that the egalitarian perspective says, hey, look, you can't argue with the level playing field. And you're right, you can't. But let's understand what's being spoken of here. Let's go a little bit deeper. Now. Paul is focusing on three, three very important areas here. And the question is, does this new equality remove what previously existed? What do I mean by that question? Let's go to the first point.
- [13:05]
A
There is neither Jew nor Greek. That speaks to heritage. In other words, our ethnicity does not limit our standing in Christ.
- [13:13]
B
So when he says there's neither Jew nor Greek, is he saying our ethnicity, our heritage, has been removed from us? Is that what he's saying? No, he's not saying that. He's saying both Jews and non Jews are called to the same calling. You carry what you were with you, and that is part of who you are. That's part of what defines you. The ethnicity, the heritage doesn't go away. Let's go to the second point.
- [13:38]
A
There is neither slave nor freeman. That speaks to social status. In other words, our social status does not limit our stand in Christ.
- [13:48]
B
Okay, so with social status, the question is, when we are in Christ, here and now, today, has our social status been removed? And the answer is no. In Scripture, both slave and Free stand on the same foundation of Christ. There's no difference in the foundation. Their two feet are on exactly the same thing.
- [14:08]
A
When Paul speaks of slaves and masters, he's addressing the everyday working relationships of his time. We aren't normalizing or excusing slavery. We are looking at the principles that apply to modern employers and employees. And there's even a hierarchy among employees.
- [14:27]
B
And that's an important recognition to have. And Jonathan, remember way back in the day when you and I worked at the cabinet shop?
- [14:32]
A
Yes.
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B
I was the general manager and you ran the big monster electronic saw. And so I'd come out with the order and say, jonathan, here's the cut list.
- [14:42]
A
And I'd say, yes, sir.
- [14:44]
B
Well, you never really said that. But the point is there was an order and by working together we got the job done. That's really, that's really the bottom line. So that sense of social status not being removed, let's look at how the Apostle Paul taught. With that in mind, let's look at Ephesians 6, verses 5 through 6.
- [15:06]
A
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling in the sincerity of your heart as to Christ, not by way of eye service as men pleasers, but as slaves of Christ doing the will of God from the heart. You know, knowing Christ doesn't suddenly free you from your duties. It changes your attitude, hopefully and perspective to be an even better worker.
- [15:32]
B
And that's an important point. And Paul is saying that to those who were involved in having to do that in servitude in those days, do your work well because you represent Christ. Now let's look at the other side of it, how Paul teaches with Colossians 4:1.
- [15:48]
A
Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a master in heaven.
- [15:55]
B
You see the equality. He's not saying, don't be the master, don't be the worker. He's saying, do what you're doing to the best, best, best of your ability. So we've got these first two points. Neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free. Julie, let's go on to the third point.
- [16:11]
C
There is neither male nor female. And, and I see the pattern. This speaks to gender. And in other words, gender doesn't limit our standing in Christ. But just like you weren't suddenly no longer Greek or no longer a servant once you became Christian, you are still physically either male or female. And we are all called to be the bride of Christ under the headship of the bridegroom. But we'll get to that soon.
- [16:36]
B
The question here, has gender identification been removed? And the answer, no, no, no, it hasn't. What happens? It's now to be a tool of sacrifice and service, just like everything else. Just like your position, just like your heritage, it's a tool of sacrifice and service. Let's look at how the apostle Peter teaches along these lines in 1 Peter, chapter 3, verses 1 and 2.
- [17:01]
A
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands, so that even if any of them are disobedient to the Word, and they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior, there's a lot
- [17:18]
B
of incredibly positive things you could say about what the wife is given as a responsibility here. To be such an example that it doesn't take words, it just takes observing who they are to see Christ likeness. That's a high level of the application of what we're talking about. So wives, okay, it talks about the submissive thing, but it also talks about being an incredible example in that context. By the same token, here's what the Apostle Paul says to husbands.
- [17:51]
A
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives. Just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her, so
- [18:00]
B
you have the other side of the coin and you can look at it and say, well, they're only supposed to love their wives. Yeah, stop. Let's think about that. Just like Christ loves the church, how does Christ love the church? He taught them, he guided them, he worked with them. He was an example to them. He lived for them and he died for them. He never did anything towards them that wasn't for their highest, best benefit every single time. That's the standard. That's what we have to stand up to and for and that's an incredible responsibility when you think about it.
- [18:36]
C
So equality in Christ changes our standing before God, but not the structure of the roles that he established, right?
- [18:44]
B
Not the structure of the roles that he established. The equality in Christ expressed in Galatians is not a disregarding of heritage or social status or gender. It's an equal invitation for all who are called to stand on the one solid foundation of Christ. This standing, just like you said, Julie, doesn't change our heritage. It doesn't change our social status. It doesn't change our gender. Rather, it focuses those things on serving from where we stand. And there's a great freedom in serving from where we stand. It's right there. It's available to you. 1 Corinthians 12, 16, 18.
- [19:22]
A
And this is a big point, Rick, because equity in Christ does not erase the distinctions God built into the body, it redirects them toward his purpose. And if the ear says, because I am not an eye, I am not part of the body, it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as he desired. You know, Paul uses an important metaphor. The church is a body, and each faithful Christian is pictured as a different part with a different function. God Himself places each member where he wants them with gifts and roles suited to his purpose.
- [20:09]
B
Those last three words to his purpose are such an important part of this whole thing. The point here is, because I'm not that role and I only play this role, does that mean I am any lesser? And the answer is nope. It means that you all are together, because without you, that can't function. So you have this incredible intertwined unity. And again, when we look at the Galatians 3, 27, 29 scripture, we can see the level playing field of what it means in terms of the unity, but what it preserves in terms of the diversity within that body. So let's go back to establishing the scriptural role of women in the true church.
- [20:52]
A
So far, our foundation is clear. The equality in Christ that all Christians have is related to our equal standing upon the merit of Jesus. While this equality does not erase our heritage, social status or gender, it does make those things tools of service as we walk together in Christ.
- [21:13]
B
So the concept here is our differences, our tools of service, to bring those differences to the table, if you will, and be part of the same thing. So, Julie, let's go back. We touched on that first point from the egalitarian point of view. What was the second point?
- [21:30]
C
Remember, it was that there are many women in leadership roles in both the Old and New Testaments. Let's just focus on Old Testament for now. Earlier I'd mentioned Deborah and Huldah. And Deborah served as both a prophetess and a civil judge in Israel. She offered wisdom, settled disputes, she delivered God's direction during a time of national crisis. She courageously supported Barak in battle and played a key role in one of the victories of Israel. Now, Holda was a respected prophetess in the days of King Josiah. And when the long lost book of the Law was rediscovered, the high priest and royal officials sought her counsel. She delivered God's message of both judgment and mercy. And one of my favorites, a little known story, the wise woman of Abel. She negotiated directly with the captain of David's army, saved her entire city through courage and wise diplomacy. So these women were faithful, courageous, deeply influential, and Scripture honors them for it. And their stories show how powerfully God used women throughout Israel's history.
- [22:36]
B
Amen.
- [22:36]
A
At the same time, their remarkable service didn't include the highest levels of spiritual authority over Israel. The question here is regarding leadership. None of them nor any other women in the Old Testament was appointed to the leadership roles that represented the nation before God. This doesn't dismiss their value. It simply reflects the consistent structure God established for spiritual authority, even as he used women in significant and meaningful ways.
- [23:09]
B
It's important to recognize the significance and the meaning of those things. And it's important to recognize how God arranged and placed all of these things. There's a pattern, there's a specific pattern in the Old Testament. And this pattern, this Old Testament pattern matters because the New Testament, as we've talked about this many times before, the New Testament consistently builds its teaching about church order and essentially everything else on the same creation based structure, not on cultural norms. Critical to understand. You have a basis that goes back before culture that is godly, that we always have to go back to Leviticus chapter 21. So going into the law, Moses puts the law in place and you have the book of Leviticus and it's got all of these rules and regulations. In Leviticus chapter 21, it thoroughly discusses the limitations that were imposed on those who made up the priesthood. Okay. The priesthood is important to consider because it represented the highest spiritual authority in all of Israel and its structure reveals God's intentional design. This is important. We want to understand the mind of God and the role of humanity. We look at how he structured things, especially when it came to honoring and worshiping him, directly to having his will go to the people. The verses in Leviticus are obviously, and we're not going to read them now, they're in Leviticus chapter 21. Those verses are obviously for males, males only. The tribe of Levi consisted both of men and women, but women were not part of the priesthood. Why? This structure was not arbitrary. It reflects the order of creation and it reflects the consequences of sin and the roles that God established. This is critical, a critical foundation to understanding this whole big question. This structure goes back to Genesis, goes back to the original sin and to the consequences of both Adam and Eve. Let's look at those things to begin with. Through the teaching of the Apostle Paul as he speaks of the creation of Adam and Eve in 1 Corinthians 11, 8, 9.
- [25:25]
A
He is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from men. For indeed, man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
- [25:40]
C
Okay, for me as a woman, this First Corinthians scripture opened everything up for me. God's original design for Adam and Eve included headship. Like it or not, woman was made from man and for man before sin entered the world. But headship in this case wasn't about superiority and subservience and putting her down. This was a harmonious partnership.
- [26:08]
A
As we will see in part two, this headship of male and female symbolizes the beautiful picture of the relationship between Christ and his Church.
- [26:19]
B
Go back to that scripture. He is the image and glory of God. The woman is the glory of man. We're reading from the New Testament to understand the foundation of both the Old and New Testament in terms of hierarchy and responsibility. And I appreciated, Julie, the way you put it, that this was a harmonious partnership. It wasn't a beating down there was a headship, but an incredible partnership of doing two different things to work together, to be unified in all things. So we've got that as the original basis. What happens? Eve was deceived by Satan and Adam, then sinned willingly. This resulted in specific consequences for both of them. So let's touch on those consequences. Eve's consequences were pain in childbirth and a new subservient role. Genesis 3:16.
- [27:15]
A
To the woman, he said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bring forth children, yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. Two points. The creation order of God's design was headship, and the result of sin was subservience.
- [27:35]
B
So you have those two pieces. You can see that one was a glorious partnership and the other stood to be interpreted in all kinds of different ways. And unfortunately, you see how it went way, way overboard throughout history in a lot of places. The point is, God sets it up a certain way. We as Christians have to, by definition, respect the word of God, the mind of God, and the will of God. And when we see those things reflected, we need to take those things and say, okay, let me build my understanding foundation on those things. So we've got this man, woman relationship here. Now let's touch on Adam's consequences because they were pain in providing Sustenance along with dying, you know, he said, dying, thou shalt die. I mean, talk about the ultimate consequence. You would have lived forever. But nope, you sinned. You will die. Genesis 3:17, 19.
- [28:33]
A
Then to Adam he said, because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying you shall not eat from it. Cursed is the ground because of you in toil, you will eat of it all the days of your life, both thorns and thistles. It shall grow for you. And you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face, you will eat bread till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.
- [29:04]
C
So taking Eve and Adam's consequences, this fall shows what happens when God's order is ignored. So following the fall, this original beautiful headship was now further defined by this decree in Genesis 3:16, he shall rule over you. And that's in the fallen state, often devolved into tyranny and conflict that we observe against women throughout history. It's important to note that God didn't command men. Now you get to dominate women. It was that he predicted that now that sin entered. This is what sinful man is going to do. Male domination is a result of sin. It's not God's original design.
- [29:47]
A
Just as death remains a consequence of sin, the struggle imbalance between men and women remains as well.
- [29:54]
B
And those are the things we need to look at and understand, appreciate and accept. God set in order things so that the sin would have its time, so all could learn from sin and in the future be able to have the opportunity for righteousness. The point is, God is as good as His Word. And if he says this is the consequence, that's the consequence. If he says, this is how I created you, then that's how he created you. We need to embrace those things. The consequences of sin would remain even when his chosen people would follow him. Remember, Israel would follow him and fall down and become idolatrous. And they would suffer. And then they'd come crawling back and beg for forgiveness, and he'd forgive them. And then they fall down and they would suffer for it. Sin is consequential, and we need to understand that with men and women, the same thing is there the same thing rules. Let's put this together now. How far we have come establishing the scripture role of women in the true church.
- [30:52]
C
The Old Testament examples of women who served God in truly remarkable ways teach us that God has all along the way, used women to directly fulfill his will. And these examples reinforcement God's respect for women because he used them mightily within the context of the original design of creation and the consequences for sin.
- [31:15]
B
So you have the pieces laid out for us. We have barely touched on the New Testament yet, but we've laid a foundation based on some of these, these points from the egalitarian perspective that say, well, what about this and what about this? And we've looked at the Old Testament and given ourselves a strong foundation to stand on of understanding how all of this works.
- [31:36]
A
With this Old Testament foundation in place, we can now turn to the New Testament to see how these principles continue and how women served powerfully within that structure.
- [31:48]
B
And that's the key. Within that structure. The whole point of this whole discussion is how are we doing within the structure of what God has said and what God wants for us? In part two, we're going to continue to discuss the points of difference between these two views on women and pastors. We'll begin, like you said, Jonathan, with New Testament examples of women in roles of influence and leadership. We'll discuss the impact of New Testament gifts of the Spirit and also weigh in on what it means when Paul says women should learn in silence. There's lots coming up here in terms of of understanding the true meaning of the relationship of men and women in the true church. Who should be pastors and who should not. Much more to come. Think about it, folks. We love hearing from our listeners. You welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes@christianquestions.com as we said coming up in our next episode, Should Women Be Pastors? Part two.