← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
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- [00:03]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:09]
Christiana Amanpour
And they're saying, you want to do something like that, recognize a Palestinian state. Here's what we're planning to do. Netanyahu and his people have said in a fit of pique, okay, well, we'll potentially annex. We're going to put this huge new settlement there, which will bury any hope of a Palestinian state.
- [00:24]
Jamie Rubin
Netanyahu could turn this around in a second, the suffering could stop, and then the Israelis could get what they want. And it is so infuriating that this one man, this BB Netanyahu, won't do the right thing.
- [00:38]
Christiana Amanpour
I was afraid. I thought, holy cow, I've gone overboard here. Did he once tell my bosses to take me off the air? Did he once threaten me? Did he once threaten cnn? No.
- [00:48]
Jamie Rubin
They then claim with one hand they're stopping censorship, and with the other hand, they're using their power to censor comedians. This is really pathetic.
- [01:01]
Christiana Amanpour
Here we are, Jamie. We're in New York. Hi, and welcome, everybody, to the X Files with me, Christiana Manpour.
- [01:07]
Jamie Rubin
And I'm Jamie Rubin. And I like to repeat the fact that I was a senior official in the Biden administration at the State Department and the Clinton administration at the State Department.
- [01:17]
Christiana Amanpour
And I'm a longtime CNN correspondent in the field and now have my own program where I try to hold world leaders to account. Jamie and I used to be married for about 20 years. I would calculate it. I think we've known each other for 29, 1996. We met right here at the U.N. yes. We've been divorced for more than seven. Hence the X Files. Of course. If you haven't already, make sure you follow our feed on Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you never miss an episode. So let's get started. All right, well, here we are in New York. It is the unga plus 80. It's the un at 80. It's really, really important. We're going to ask the question about recognizing a Palestinian state and what, in fact, it means. We're going to talk about free speech in America in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination. And don't forget, we are going to talk about our recommendations at the end. So it's all happening, Jamie. All these countries are recognizing a Palestinian state. Should we be surprised that that's happening? My question is, who? I think it's important. What does it actually mean? Of course it's important. What does it actually mean?
- [02:28]
Jamie Rubin
Well, technically speaking, I don't think it actually means anything. But it is important nonetheless. I mean, technically speaking, by that, I mean they are not now a state that can be a member of the UN because they're not a state yet. And they're not a member of the un. They're observers, the Palestinian Authority. But it's important because everyone in the world is trying to figure out how to get Israel to stop this war. The war could have stopped a year ago. There are solutions out there. There are ways to end this war and still meet everybody's objectives. That's what I worked on in government. We could talk about that in a minute. But in terms of recognizing a Palestinian state, it's putting pressure on Netanyahu. And they respond falsely claiming that recognition is somehow a victory for Hamas. And I need to say here, right up front, and everyone needs to say it all week long, Hamas doesn't want to two states, they want one state. So by recognizing Palestine, you're defeating the ideology of Hamas. Hamas wanted one big state with the Palestinians in control. To recognize Palestine as a state with Israel as a state is a defeat for Hamas ideology. So anyone who tells people that somehow this is good for Hamas or a victory for Hamas or anything like that, it's complete, utter nonsense.
- [03:51]
Christiana Amanpour
Yes. And look, I know you say it doesn't mean anything at the moment. Maybe pragmatically and practically right now it doesn't. And in fact, Netanyahu, who said this whole business about how it was a reward, and you've just said why it's not a reward. Farmhouse said, by the way, it doesn't matter. It's not going to happen. So as we know, as this is happening at the UN, which is a huge departure, don't forget, 147 of the 193 UNGA member states already had recognized a Palestinian state. This now is going to add 6 to 8 to maybe 10 more.
- [04:22]
Jamie Rubin
But big powers, big powers.
- [04:24]
Christiana Amanpour
And not only that, members of the Security Council, all of them, except for the United States, five permanent members. Britain, France, Russia, China, they are all recognizing, but the United States is not. So it is top of the agenda. But as we speak, Israel is already right now flattening Gaza and making it even more intolerable for Palestinians in the West Bank. So the real question is, I think also is what happens next? And there's a lot in terms of the actual territory because it is being dismantled. And, you know, it's a great demolition job, as somebody has said. And then people are saying, my goodness, what the Israelis and Trump really want is a real estate I mean, Israeli ministers have said that. Trump has said that in the beginning, the real estate to create into something that is not necessarily a Palestinian state as they would want. So I think that's a big, big thing we have to watch out for. Then Macron, he spoke to CBS News, and he said, you know, if we want peace and security for all in the region, we have to preserve the condition of a political perspect for everyone. The war in Gaza is simply killing as many Hamas members as possible, cannot be the only solution. So Macron and Trump and Starmer and Trump and the others are gonna have a. It's gonna be chilly in the halls.
- [05:45]
Jamie Rubin
Of the UN yes and no. I don't know this, but I suspect that President Trump, who said over and over again he wants to win a Nobel Peace Prize, and he has a few places he could possibly do it. One is ending the war in Gaza, I suspect. And since that Trump is not too happy with the Netanyahu government right now. Why do I say that? It's my understanding that in the days before the strike on Doha by the Israelis that ruined the prospects for peace in the region, the Trump administration had developed a plan with Arab countries and with Israel, leading members of the Israeli government, to end the war. And that plan would have stopped the war, gotten all Israeli forces out of Gaza, put in place an Arab force to control the borders. And just as that plan was being given to Hamas and given a deadline by President Trump, two days before the deadline, or three days, the Israelis struck Qatar. So I don't think President Trump was happy about that. And why do I say that? Because, remember, the United States has a relationship with Qatar. We have an air base there. We have a relationship with all the Arab states. He wants to get the big deal that involves Saudi recognition. Israel's attack destroyed all that. So I don't think you're going to see as much dissension between Trump and Macron, Starmer, because they're both going to be saying, you know, we got to get the Israelis to do the right thing. And only Donald Trump, other than Netanyahu, has the ability to pressure Netanyahu. And that's crucial. And I think they'll be talking about how to do that, not mad at each other.
- [07:27]
Christiana Amanpour
Maybe. Maybe Macron has said he doesn't think necessarily it's going to harm his relationship with the president or with the US but everybody has noticed that President Trump, the Trump administration has essentially is sitting on the sidelines. They say a few things in public, but they let this continue. And worse than that, they have banned, you know, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the legitimate Palestinian Authority, from coming here with this. No negotiations, no ability to address. I spoke to Annelina Barbok, the former German Foreign minister, who's really a remarkable woman on the side of democracy and sovereignty and security.
- [08:03]
Jamie Rubin
She was a great colleague.
- [08:04]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and not just in, in, in Gaza and Israel, but also with Ukraine and Russia. But she said, look, you know, this is UN + 80. She's the president now of the UNGA, you know, one of the rare women. And she said, UN at 80. We need to really reboot. Because if you look at all the headlines right now, it's all about the UN being sort of impotent and even worse off. You know, Trump has cut a lot of funding for the good things that the UN does, the unhcr, un, unicef, all of the, you know, all of those humanitarian things that the UN does. And I think it's, it's, it's, this is going to be really important to reboot because it's not just France and the Europeans, the Arab states, and they're going to have a special Summit on the 2, 2 state solution. You know, it's just hard to watch, it's hard to watch what's going on in Gaza as this is all happening. Can I just read you something? I want to read people something. And if you want to all look up Haaretz. Recently, there was a whole bunch of testimonies from inside Gaza that have been gathered. So here's Muhammad Daeb, September 14th. Many friends and family members cannot even evacuate because they have no means. They don't even have a tent. They've decided to remain in Gaza City against their will. Despite the death and the bombardment. They cannot protect their children. They accept God's decree even as they curse everyone who abandoned them to die on this earth. I no longer know what to write in the face of this horror. So this is going on every minute, every second, as we sit here in New York? Yes. And the world leaders come and they don't let us in and it needs to end.
- [09:39]
Jamie Rubin
Well, I do believe we're at one of those moments in history when individuals can make a difference. I'm not someone who believes that, you know, people, individual leaders, have total power. I generally believe in the forces from below change things. But right now, there are two people who can change the world. President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu. What's going on in Gaza is destroying the reputation of Israel. Destroying it because it's not Necessary. Israelis know it's not necessary. And I firmly believe if Israelis had a vote right now, their people would vote to end the conflict because they know they're not getting anything more from killing Hamas and flattening Gaza City. In the end, this is going to still be, you know, something Israel's going to have to deal with. Why should they continue to kill when they could get their hostages out? They could get recognition from Saudi Arabia, which is the dream of the founders of Israel, to have its neighbors recognize it. They're working with Syria. They could have all, all their neighbors recognize Israel. And instead, for reasons that are only we can imagine, and my recommendation, we'll get to that in a minute. Netanyahu won't do that, but President Trump can make it happen. Obviously I didn't vote for him and obviously I'd prefer the Democrats in charge, but he does have enormous power and he can exercise that power because people are afraid of him. They don't know what he's gonna do on a given day. And that gives you, it used to be called the madman theory from Richard Nixon. He would tell Kiss album walking on the beach, let those North Vietnamese think I'd use nuclear weapons and that'll make them negotiate. Trump has that same quality. And if he told Netanyahu that he would lose his support. Netanyahu could turn this around in a second. The suffering could stop. Food could be brought in, medicine, shelter, and then the Israelis could get what they want, their hostages and peace. And it is so infuriating that this one man, this Bibi Netanyahu, won't do the right thing.
- [11:47]
Christiana Amanpour
And unfortunately in public, the American Secretary of State, the Ambassador to Israel, all of them basically support him and his methods. So there's no even public stance from this administration that they're trying to bring and trying to corral one other thing about so called allies. What Trump did in his first term, the Abraham Accords, is also threatened by what they're now threatening to do in the West Bank. And you know, Netanyahu and his people have said in a fit of pique, but it has consequences on the, the ground, okay, well, we'll, you know, potentially annex, we're going to put this huge new settlement there, E1 they call it, which will bury any hope of a Palestinian state because it'll cut it off from being contiguous. And they're saying, you, you want to do something like that, recognize a Palestinian state? Here's what we're planning to do. The UAE have said, has said that that would be a red line, any talk about, you know, that was their.
- [12:41]
Jamie Rubin
Price for the Abraham Accords.
- [12:43]
Christiana Amanpour
Let's just move on because there's another really huge thing obviously facing everybody and that is the just continuous challenge by Putin to the west this last week. Not only did we discuss the previous time of him drones in Polish airspace, drone in Romanian airspace, but now fighter jets inside Estonia. 12 minutes.
- [13:08]
Jamie Rubin
Let's talk about that for a second.
- [13:09]
Christiana Amanpour
Really big.
- [13:10]
Jamie Rubin
Because it's interesting to make the following analogy. We've talked a lot and we're going to talk about the degree to which Trump has made America less democratic. To the extent that that's true, I wish he would follow the actions of one of these semi democratic leaders like Erdogan. In Turkey, when Russian fighter jets illiberal democracy. When Russian fighter jets entered Turkish airspace, they shot them down. That's what we need to do to Russian fighter jets. We need to warn them that the next time a fighter jet crosses into NATO airspace, they'll be shot down. And when they, Erdogan did that, Putin accepted it because he knows that he has no choice. So NATO needs to make clear that any further entry into their airspace will be responded to the same way Turkey did. What was that 10 years ago? I can't remember eight years ago, something like that. And that will send the right message and it will be defensive because it will be a defensive response. And that's what I hope NATO countries are gonna talk about this week.
- [14:13]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah. And obviously Putin is testing, testing, testing, testing. And unless he does come against a brick wall, it's going to continue. Also, of course, they have the ability, NATO members, EU and the rest to take all of that Russian money that has been frozen and give it to Ukraine for weapons because clearly Ukraine also needs weapons in terms of defensive weapons, obviously offensive as well, but, but more anti aircraft systems to get down, you know, to take down all the, the missiles and drones and all the rest of it. Need to. You just brought up. And we need to bring up because this weekend was Charlie Kirk's memorial in Arizona. The president went, all his cabinet went, they all gave, you know, long speeches. It was a long, long event. Mostly religious. I'll have to, I'll say, I think we should talk about it in our second segment because it really goes to the heart of how strong this democracy can be or can stay. And those who are able and have the constitutional authority to actually stand up. And we've been speaking to a coup of officials are concerned about what's going on. All right, so we're going to Take a quick break and we'll come back in a sec.
- [15:26]
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- [16:31]
Christiana Amanpour
We're back. This is the second part of our discussion and we're going to talk about what's happening right here in the United States. And that is, I think, a growing climate of fear, growing uncertainty about whether Trump is just speaking and, oh, you know, it's just Trump being Trump or whether Charlie Kirk's assassination and the doubling down on the issue of we're just, you know, it's called free speech. But as you know, free speech matters differently and is described differently by different sides of the political aisle. So President Trump was at the memorial, as I said, in Arizona, and he essentially did, you know, lash out at opponents. Most of the other speeches were about religion. Even Charlie Kirk's widow said she forgave the killer and was calling for, you know, reconciliation. But Trump was very clear he was doubling down on wanting his attorney general, wanting essentially the state to go after whoever he considers opponents. And obviously the media are for reporting and describing him in ways that he doesn't like. So the truth is, you know, can be a casualty. Fear is a contagious thing. I don't know how you feel about it being, you know, you live here. I don't. But it has a, you know, it has a chilling effect around the world.
- [17:47]
Jamie Rubin
It's painful to me as the former spokesman of the United States government and a senior official in our government, to admit that when I returned to the United States a couple of days ago after a month, it felt different to me. For the first Time in my life. I'm 65 years old. I never felt this before you. And I just ran into a senator on the street. We won't mention his name. And I was stunned to hear him say that he wonders whether he could be prosecuted or pursued by the Justice Department. All the senators. We've said this before, you know, feel fear. And I want to mention something that really is chilling in the extreme. There was a man, his name was Roy Cohn. He was the man who helped Joe McCarthy destroy the climate in America during the 50s. He. He worked with Joe McCarthy. And anyone who's seen the Apprentice knows that he's the man who taught Donald Trump his politics. And it's the politics of hate, the politics of oppression, the politics of making your opponents afraid. And I can't tell you how many people have disappointed me in the last six months watching them bend the knee to Donald Trump and his administration. Mostly corporate kingpins who care more about money than anything else. You know, none of these things that America has created or built, whether it's the Internet or AI or television or radio, would have been possible without our democracy. Our democracy and our government made all that possible to undermine that democracy by refusing to stand up for simple things like a comedian's right to make a good funny joke.
- [19:27]
Christiana Amanpour
And everyone, I mean, it was kind of off color. And I would say, but it's a joke. Ill time.
- [19:32]
Jamie Rubin
But my point is, is that he's a comedian.
- [19:34]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah. And not to pull him off the air. Listen to this. Because it was, you know, there's Brendan Carr, the FCC regulator, the one they're afraid of. Right.
- [19:43]
Jamie Rubin
The corporate kingpins.
- [19:45]
Christiana Amanpour
Well, he's the one who went and said, you know, we can either do this the easy way or the hard way. Which, as Ted Cruz, even Senator Ted.
- [19:53]
Jamie Rubin
Cruz, a Republican, he's saying, watch out. Look what they'll do to us when we get it.
- [19:57]
Christiana Amanpour
Didn't you only say that? He said, this is straight out of the. Of, you know, of Goodfellas. It is an actual line from Ted Cruz.
- [20:04]
Jamie Rubin
Think about that.
- [20:05]
Christiana Amanpour
People have been sending this thing around, too. This is Brendan Carr.
- [20:08]
Jamie Rubin
Unbelievable.
- [20:09]
Christiana Amanpour
What? In 2022.
- [20:10]
Jamie Rubin
Unbelievable.
- [20:11]
Christiana Amanpour
And President Biden is right, said Brendan Carr in 2022. Political satire is one of the oldest and most important forms of free speech. It challenges those in power while using humor to draw more people into the discussion. That's why people in influential positions have always targeted it for censorship. And, you know, M. Gessen, the brilliant analyst in the New York Times, immediately sort of likened the Jimmy Kimmel instant. And this, you know, defining sort of turning point as what Putin has done in the Soviet Union when he pulled the puppet show off the air because it was satirical. David Remnick has just written, historically, autocrats are a mirthless bunch of Augustus, Napoleon Bonaparte, Tsar Nicholas I, Francisco Franco and countless others. They all cracked down on satirists. We know what this picture looks like.
- [21:03]
Jamie Rubin
Let me take one word there, which I find really fascinating. So I worked in the State Department for the thing called the Global Engagement center, and our job was to combat Russian and Chinese disinformation. But a bunch of right wing crazies, including Elon Musk, accused us of censorship. That was their big charge. And even today, the State Department is firing people and changing policies because they claim they're related to a GEC that did censorship. Look at what Brendan Carr said, the last word in the quote. That's what they're doing, censorship. And they then claim with one hand they're stopping censorship and with the other hand they're using their power to censor comedians. This is really pathetic that they're afraid, afraid of comedians. And we can't be afraid. No fear should be our motto. In fact, I think we should get a button and put it on our lapel saying, no fear, no fear, no fear.
- [22:07]
Christiana Amanpour
Interestingly, the columnist you know, well, E.J. dion, who was at the Washington Post, now the New York Times, he talked about how he was taught by his, I think his father, his family at the dinner table, how to argue, how to even challenge his elders. He said in this latest column, in disagreement is one of the joys of freedom. And I think that we should really, really be thinking about this. President Trump basically has said now again, going after journalists said, musing, even on the plane home from his state visit to the UK well, yeah, I think it should be illegal if you all say things that are bad about me and anger me.
- [22:44]
Jamie Rubin
And you know what that reminds me of? Let me tell you a funny story.
- [22:47]
Christiana Amanpour
The word illegal is pretty scary.
- [22:49]
Jamie Rubin
Let me tell you a funny story. So I won't mention the specific country, but you can imagine it. Madeleine Albright was Secretary of State and we would go to countries in the Gulf states. And my job was to deal with the press. And we had the New York Times, the Washington Post, et cetera. And inevitably we were infuriated by something they wrote because they found something to criticize. But when we would go to kingdoms with kings in that region, we would always laugh because the next day there would be an article in their leading Newspaper describing our visit in the nicest possible way. An important meeting took place between Madeleine Albright and King blah blah or Crown Prince blah blah. And then everything was beautiful and it was written as almost like we wrote it ourselves. That's what Donald Trump wants. Those are the people he wants to live in a world where the press just is a stenographer for the White House. And that's what we can never be. Because Thomas Jefferson said the most important right in the Bill of Rights was freedom of the press, because without it, our democracy dies.
- [23:58]
Christiana Amanpour
He even chose press over government if he had to. He said, I grew up in a monarchically correct information space. Iran. Yes, Iran. When it was the time of the shahs. Of course, it is still the same with the authoritarian ayatollahs. And I know what it's like to every day watch the television and have everything just fantastic, beautiful and nice. The Shah did this, the Shah did that. He went here, he talked to this. But it was just. Everything was absolutely fantastic. But just to end this little segment on more from Ted Cruz, the Republican senator. If the government gets into the business of saying, we don't like what you, the media have said, we're going to ban you from the airways. If you don't say what we like, that will end up bad for conservatives, period. End of story.
- [24:41]
Jamie Rubin
Let's hope more people listen to Ted Cruz. Can you imagine?
- [24:44]
Christiana Amanpour
I'm saying that, but not quite end of story. I'm just gonna give an example. Back in 1994 or so, I was in Sarajevo challenging President Clinton at the time. You remember this? Oh, I remember the US Missteps, very bad missteps in, in Bosnia, where ethnic cleansing was going on. It led to genocide, and the place was under siege. And I asked him a very, very tough question, including why his administration has been flip flopping all over the place. This is to a actual President of the United States, my whole CNN executive leadership, Ted Turner, Tom Johnson, who was President E. Jordan, who was head Foreign News International, and everybody was there. Everybody. Maybe even Jerry Levin, who was the corporate chief of Time Warner. Anyway, I did it.
- [25:33]
Jamie Rubin
You confronted President Clinton.
- [25:34]
Christiana Amanpour
And Clinton got mad at me.
- [25:36]
Jamie Rubin
He did.
- [25:37]
Christiana Amanpour
There have been no constant flip flops, madam. Those speeches like yours will cause, you know, strong people around the world to, you know, take me less seriously. He was mad at me. And do you not think that the constant flip flop of your administration on the issue of Bosnia sets a very dangerous precedent?
- [25:57]
Jamie Rubin
There have been no constant flip flops, madam. And we have been much more active than My predecessor was in every way from the beginning.
- [26:05]
Christiana Amanpour
Did he once tell my bosses to take me off the air? Did he once threaten me? Did he once threaten cnn? No. And more to the, more to the point, CNN did not punish me. They didn't do anything.
- [26:19]
Jamie Rubin
You were afraid.
- [26:20]
Christiana Amanpour
At first I was afraid. I thought, holy cow, I've gone overboard here. And they stood up for me and they said, you know, you asked your question. We were a little bit, you know, stunned and everybody went white in the audience. And I never heard back from Ted Turner. I'm sure he was pissed.
- [26:35]
Jamie Rubin
Well, here's the good part. You told me that when you were later accompanying someone to a White House dinner and when you accompanied me to a White House dinner when we were then engaged or married and Clinton enjoyed it and he laughed with you and he said, you got me on substance rather than these little things he thought he was being criticized for. And he called you, if I remember correctly, the voice of humanity.
- [27:00]
Christiana Amanpour
He did. He did. Which was very Clinton and very nice. And I never forgot it. We're gonna take a break. When we come back, the last part of our conversation today, we're gonna have our recommendations and also talk about a couple of funnies about Jamie's experience at the UN when he was was, you know, spokesperson to Madeleine Albright, who was then the UN Ambassador for the US My experience at the UN Some stories when we get back.
- [27:27]
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- [28:30]
Christiana Amanpour
All right, we're back with the last part of this week's episode where we're going to talk about our recommendations and a little bit about, you know, I'm just going to tell you that I Had a bad experience with the UN because my main, you know, work during the 90s was Bosnia, Rwanda, Haiti, Somalia, all these places which was just catastrophically imploding. And the UN were basic bystanders. At most, they had blue helmets and they were peacekeepers. And they did try to bring in humanitarian aid. But because they were governed by the United States, France, you know, the Security Council, they didn't have their own right to do things. And I. And they didn't really stand up as much as they should have done. I thought it was a very bad time. And it coincided with the 50th anniversary of the UN so I was at the UN and I was doing, you know, reporting. I was told, CNN's gonna do a 50th anniversary. So mine was all negative. It was negative. I mean, it was my experience. So it was just what I'm saying. So Ted Turner took a look at it, and Ted really liked the UN And Ted did not tell CNN to pull my hour, but he commissioned another.
- [29:38]
Jamie Rubin
One to be more positive.
- [29:40]
Christiana Amanpour
But on the all.
- [29:41]
Jamie Rubin
And there are plenty of good things.
- [29:42]
Christiana Amanpour
On all the humanitarian stuff. And then if you remember, while many presidents have. And many Congress, congressional leaders have cut U.S. funds to the U.N. ted Turner in 1996, gave the money to pay the bills. $1 billion of his own money. That's the man he was to pay the arrears.
- [30:01]
Jamie Rubin
That's a real class act. But more importantly, in my opinion, that's how we met.
- [30:06]
Christiana Amanpour
Yes.
- [30:06]
Jamie Rubin
You were in New York doing your thing, documentary. I heard you were there. Somehow you called me and I introduced you.
- [30:14]
Christiana Amanpour
I didn't call you. You came in. I didn't know you.
- [30:17]
Jamie Rubin
I think you reached out to me in some way. Cause we were talking about war criminals by then, remember?
- [30:21]
Christiana Amanpour
No, no, no, Jamie, this is before war criminals. You brought Madeline in.
- [30:25]
Jamie Rubin
And whatever the reason, how we came.
- [30:28]
Christiana Amanpour
In, you decided you wanted to meet me. That's true.
- [30:30]
Jamie Rubin
But then I introduced you to Madeleine Albright. Doing my job as an. As a press guy for Madeleine. I introduced you to Madeleine. I brought her out of the Security Council to the waiting room.
- [30:40]
Christiana Amanpour
You were trying to impress me.
- [30:42]
Jamie Rubin
And her help. Her help you. Those were the two most important women in my life at the time. Eventually, when we married, but that was then, of course. And the point I'm making is that the UN is a place really, in the end, where people meet and talk. And when it works, right, It's a place you can do an enormous amount of diplomatic business, but it will never, never function properly. Those were the height of the UN because the Russians and Chinese cooperated to do good things before they became fully authoritarian and stopped things from happening. Like Russia's preventing anybody from doing anything about Ukraine. And China wants to prevent the UN from doing anything about the Uyghurs or anything like that, or human rights or Hong Kong. But those days, China was cooperating, they were abstaining. Russia, Yeltsin was president, was working with President Trump, Clinton, and that's when the UN Worked. But even then, it sometimes bit off more than it could chew, like in Bosnia, like in Somalia. But there were some successes. My favorite success of the UN obviously, during that period was the civilian administration of Kosovo that ended up bringing us a democracy. And last week, as you know, I was testifying about that. So the UN can work, but first you need the big countries to be willing to follow the rule of law. And right now, none of the big ones are.
- [32:01]
Christiana Amanpour
Last week there was a ceasefire resolution to end the war in Gaza. Gaza, Everybody, you know, voted for it except for the United States of America. So that's not good. Let's do resolution recommendations.
- [32:12]
Jamie Rubin
I'm getting resolutions, recommendations, whatever. Go ahead.
- [32:16]
Christiana Amanpour
Let's do recommendations. So mine is given where we are and what we're talking about. It's called Peacemaker, and it's about you, Fant, the third Secretary General of the U. N. And it's written by a friend of mine, Thant Mint U, who's his grandson, and he is a phenomenal writer. I hadn't read his previous stuff. He's a historian. And this book is fantastic because it shows how you found Secretary General worked with President Kennedy, President Johnson, you know, Khrushchev and the Chinese leaders Mao and Xuan Lai and the others to try to resolve and bring peace. And he had a major, major role in resolving, along with the United States and Russia, the Cuban Missile crisis. Anyway, it's absolutely fascinating and it's red. It's written in a really accessible and human way, and I highly recommend it. The Peacemaker.
- [33:10]
Jamie Rubin
So I'm gonna give you. Last two times have been books. I'm gonna give you a film this time, and I'm gonna give you a film because there are two human beings right now who could really. Well, three who could change the world. Trump, Vladimir Putin and Bibi Netanyahu. And we all know who Putin is, Trump has talked about endlessly. I can't. One of the weird parts about coming home to America is in Europe, they don't talk about Trump 24 hours a day, and they do here. And it's hard to take sometimes. Anyway, the movie I'm gonna recommend is called the BB Files and the Documentary. It's a documentary about Bibi Netanyahu and his family. And it's real footage. It's brilliant. And it shows you the way in which the Netanyahu family deals with crises. And it tells you a lot about this person who could change things if he would just realize how to. He has always wanted to be a hero, Netanyahu. He can only be a hero if he combines force and diplomacy. The military has done all the things that have happened in the last two years. Netanyahu hasn't done it. The military did it or the intelligence community did it. If he really wants to be a hero, he could combine all that successful use of force and successful use of intelligence with diplomacy and make Israel a secure country recognized by its neighbors and allow the Palestinians to live their lives without oppressing them and committing all this horror to them. And Saudi Arabia would recognize Israel and Syria would probably do so, the way things are going. And he could be a real hero the way he's going now. Now he's going to be a goat.
- [35:00]
Christiana Amanpour
A goat. All right, well, BB Files, which I've seen, is the documentary and it's all the cctv, CCTV footage or whatever the, the interrogation footage of when he's being questioned by authorities over his tells you.
- [35:15]
Jamie Rubin
A lot about the man who can make these important decisions.
- [35:20]
Christiana Amanpour
Don't forget you can always go back and watch or listen to previous episodes to see how previous recommendations. Hope you're enjoying them and thanks for listening. Make sure you're following our feed so you never miss an episode. Remember, you can watch our episodes, of course, on YouTube as well. Just search Christiana Monpour presents the X Files and you can listen for free, as you know on Global Player. Download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com and we will see you on Thursday for our Q and A episode. We're going to answer your questions as we always do, so keep them coming in. And we love hearing from you. Email us@amanpurpodlobal.com or find us on social media @amanpur pod.
- [35:58]
Jamie Rubin
Bye bye from New York City.
- [36:00]
Christiana Amanpour
Goodbye from New York City this week.
- [36:09]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [36:13]
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