← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
From allies to insults: who wins from Trump's personality-driven diplomacy?
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- [00:00]
Christiane Amanpour
At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you combine auto and home insurance with Amica, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save Amica. Empathy is our best policy. This is a global player original podcast.
- [00:36]
Jamie Rubin
Do you want to see the actual dog? Hold on, hold on.
- [00:39]
Christiane Amanpour
Oh, there's the dog. She looks a little bit like Mindu, our dog.
- [00:44]
Jamie Rubin
No, no, listen, I thought I would call her Min too. Like two.
- [00:49]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah.
- [00:49]
Jamie Rubin
Min too. And then that got a little bit difficult, so I just shortened it to Minty.
- [00:54]
Christiane Amanpour
Cute little dog.
- [00:55]
Jamie Rubin
So cute. This week we're looking at what seems to be shaping up as Donald Trump's personality driven foreign policy, his Oval Office behavior to those he might like, but especially those he doesn't like. What he thinks of insignificant countries versus what he considers powerful countries. We'll be asking how these White House appearances are actually impact America in the long run. And we're going to ask, are these risks worth it for world leaders to come and sit in that kind of command performance, not knowing which way it's going to go? This is Christiana Monpour Presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And I'm Christiane.
- [01:43]
Christiane Amanpour
And I'm Jamie Rubin.
- [01:45]
Jamie Rubin
And I'm a longtime correspondent and now anchor for cnn where I have had a show for a long time trying to hold world leaders to account.
- [01:54]
Christiane Amanpour
We also happen to be a married couple. We were married for 20 years. We've been divorced now for seven.
- [01:58]
Jamie Rubin
And we thought if we can talk together and address some of these incredible problems from all sorts of different perspectives, notably his from government, mine from journalism, then anybody can, and maybe even world leaders. Because a lot needs to be talked through, hashed out and sorted. It was a case of another week, another White House meeting gone badly wrong. The this time with the South African president, Cyril Ramaphosa.
- [02:26]
Christiane Amanpour
But you do allow them to take land. No, no, no, no. You do allow them to take land. Nobody can take the land. And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
- [02:38]
Jamie Rubin
No, no. I thought I'd never seen anything so awful. And I had my hand in my, you know, my hand on my face during the Zelensky debacle. But watching the ambush of Cyril Ramaphosa, honestly, I just didn't know where to put myself. It was so uncomfortable. It was so wrong. And it turned out to be wrong. And it was just really chilling some leaders. You know, Zelenskyy did not do it so well, and he got riled up and Trump got riled up and Vance piled in and all the rest of it. But Ramaphosa and his people were much more composed. And actually there was a funny moment going to the sort of the flattery and the, you know, giving Trump gifts. A bit of this whole narrative when a journalist got Trump upset about again, asking about the 400, what is it? Million dollar plane from the UAE. But this is what Ramaphosa said. I'm sorry, I don't have a plane to give you.
- [03:37]
Christiane Amanpour
I wish. I wish you did.
- [03:39]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, so it was pretty adept. It broke the ice. Ramaphosa told a joke. It sort of brought down the temperature for a period of time. So let's get started. The real question is not just the personality of Donald Trump, but what does this actually mean for American foreign policy?
- [03:59]
Christiane Amanpour
The way I think about this is to distinguish between Trump, the dealmaker, the politician, the individual, and American foreign policy that flows from that. What Trump has realized, and in using the powers of the presidency to their maximum extent, he's realized he can play the foreign policy game every day through a phone call, through a meeting, through a tweet. And that is the unique power of the American president where it's not a parliamentary system. So that's one thing that's happening. Number two is they have thrown away the normal system of policymaking. Just this past week, they basically eliminated half the staff of the White House National Security Council, which used to drive policy from below, where experts, officials would come up with some ideas, push it up to the next level, then to the cabinet level, and ultimately to the president. That's the normal way of doing long term American policy, so that these policies have traction, that they're thought through and that they're in our interest. Trump has thrown all that away and decided whatever I think today is going to be the foreign policy of the United States, and he has that power under our system.
- [05:07]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, But America and South Africa have had a long term relationship. They have a pretty robust trading relationship. Cyril Ramaphosa's aim was to reset their relationship after Trump cut aid, cut ties and all the rest of it. His foreign minister told me that that's all they wanted to do behind closed doors after all this hullabaloo in the White House, the ambush with the PowerPoint. They just wanted to reset the relationship and they're hoping that they might have done. Obviously, America is The strongest one. But what does it serve? America to alienate Africa or if you listen to some of the experts, America has been, as is Europe pulling out of Africa. Guess who's going in?
- [05:55]
Christiane Amanpour
The UAE and the Chinese. Absolutely. Both of those countries are going in. You're absolutely right. This is not good for the United States. But it is a reality that President Trump in his last administration called all these countries a nasty word. The shithole countries is the phrase the President used. I'm just repeating what he said. And this time around, people were hoping that in the second term that meeting someone with the dignity and skill of Cyril Ramaphosa, we could get back to a more normal way of doing business. But it's not going to happen. This follows from taking away all the incredible work the United States has done over the years to provide medical assistance to Africans and saved millions of lives through the Gates foundation, through the program that provided HIV support for killing HIV and treating it. And that's the tragedy here, is that we've been winning hearts and minds in Africa for years and years, going back to when we opposed the apartheid regime. And instead of sticking with that line, Donald Trump has overturned it. President Trump has sided us with the white farmers, imagining some grand grievance against the white farmers that actually isn't going on. As Ramaphosa explained.
- [07:09]
Jamie Rubin
I was actually quite sad because. And actually befuddled. And I don't even know. Some people say it doesn't matter he won with that, with that video, but that his aides did not know enough to actually put correct stuff on that PowerPoint. Julius Malema, the guy who was jumping up and down. Hold on. Jumping up and down. Has been exiled from the anc. He's a fringe party member. The White Crosses. It was easily fact checked and debunked. It was a protest. It wasn't grave markers. And a lot of the stuff that his spokesperson handed to him, some of it anyway, was said to have been from other countries.
- [07:47]
Christiane Amanpour
This is what happens when you have foreign policy made on the fly. You know, American foreign policy matters to the world. What we say, what we do matters to the world. And that's why you have a system to construct thoughtful policies and then construct policy making with foreign governments slowly, carefully. And you don't throw it all away in one meeting. Normally, instead of a meeting happening first, you work with the lower levels of government, you plow up a summit meeting between the two leaders, and you make progress. The tragedy is that it harms the United States in the long haul, even if we don't want to devote all of our resources to Africa because we're scaling back, according to Trump, because of his own reasons. Why should we alienate them after having done so much for decades to support Africans in their effort to be free and thrive as a people free of HIV and free of apartheid and free of the rule of the iron man, which has been happening also in Africa.
- [08:52]
Jamie Rubin
Nelson Mandela, for me and for many people, is possibly the most respected world leader in modern times or in any memory. And guess what? Cyril Ramaphosa was his chief negotiator in the, you know, with, with, with the Mandela and the white government of FW De Klerk. And I remember interviewing FW De Klerk and he told me what an incredible, distinguished, brave and determined man Nelson Mandela was and the two of the Nobel Prize together for ending apartheid. So it's weird, Jamie, that Trump is casting himself as sort of the self appointed protector of white people who have had none of their rights taken away.
- [09:33]
Christiane Amanpour
Look, my last job in the government was running partly the information warfare account. And Russia and China work it really, really hard in Africa. And one of the things we discovered, and we revealed it, we downgraded intelligence and were able to reveal it that Russia was so infuriated by the reputation of the United States for doing good works in Africa by providing retroviral medicine, by preventing the millions of deaths from AIDS and from other diseases. Russia hated that. And so they came up with conspiracy theories and then they spread them through information warfare where they suggested that Big Pharma was using Africans as test subjects in bio warfare. And we were able to reveal this Russian effort and kill it before it could spread. But what it tells you is how much support the United States had for its efforts in Africa, how much that infuriated Russia and China because it was basically soft power of the United States. And President Trump and his administration, unfortunately, in six months have wiped out an enormous amount of America's soft power by killing all the programs to provide assistance or many of them and by coming up with these crazy town stories about white farmers. And that's the tragedy here.
- [10:53]
Jamie Rubin
I think we're going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to talk about the stats, Jamie, that you're just alluding to. You may not have even seen them, but in the ft, the Democracy Perception Index has very, very bad news for the United States of America. And we'll also talk about JD Vance and we'll talk about Putin and the latest Trump broadside against Putin. He also gave Zelensky. Another, you know, slap across another shot. Yeah, another shot. And we'll talk about that in the next part.
- [11:25]
C
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- [12:32]
Jamie Rubin
We'Re back. To continue the discussion. We when we left off, we were talking about the Democracy Perception Index. The FT has quoted these figures, which I'm going to read, but it also says that this is becoming a reality TV show, like a spectator sport with all these different installments and episodes in the Oval Office. But listen to these stats because they're worrying. I think so. 45%, Jamie, have a positive impression of the United States. That is down from 75% last year. President Trump is viewed negatively in 82 of 100 nations, while President Putin, the man who's invaded his neighbor, is viewed negatively in only 62 of those nations. And Xi is viewed negatively in 44 of those nations. So Xi is the most popular in these 100 countries. Then Putin and then Trump.
- [13:28]
Christiane Amanpour
Boy, oh boy, this is what I learned in my two years in government. We are losing the information warfare to Russia and China. We are losing the so called undeclared information war where Russia and China have decided to spend enormous resources discrediting the United States and promoting themselves. And now because of the way Trump's policies are being perceived and the President's views are being perceived around the world, it's been added on to negatively affect the United States. Look, on the surface, information warfare doesn't always appear to have a long term impact. But I can tell you that it does, because what it means is our ability to persuade countries to work with us. When you have these kind of figures and this kind of rejection of the American leadership role, you can't play a leading role. It weakens the United States and our power in the world.
- [14:22]
Jamie Rubin
We've talked about the leaders that Trump has sort of, for what, whatever you want to say. Humiliated, you know, alienated. Alienated. But others he hasn't, like, for instance, Nai Bukele of El Salvador, treated him to a beautiful, as Trump might say, a big, beautiful Oval Office meeting in which he was, you know, lavish praise on him.
- [14:44]
Christiane Amanpour
Right.
- [14:44]
Jamie Rubin
So it goes both ways. And I guess a question is somebody, we just talked about China, somebody like Xi Jinping, with whom the United States and particularly President Trump, has a lot of business, you know, in terms of unfair trade and this and that. Is Xi going to subject himself to an Oval Office meeting with Donald Trump under the current circumstances?
- [15:08]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I think the short answer to that is no. And that's why they haven't even spoken on the phone, because the way the Chinese system operates is the exact reverse of what Trump does. Everything has to start below, have to be carefully scripted, have to be built from the working level. Ambassadors, then ministers, then more ministers, then the head of state. And the meetings themselves, I can tell you, are often, you know, not that interesting because they're performative with the leaders of a country like China, where we know exactly what they're going to say and they know exactly what we're going to say. And it's only over time, by having multiple such meetings, that you develop a relationship that can be useful in a crisis. But to make policy with China, who's now the most important other country in the world after the United States, they're not going to stand for this kind of uncertainty about what will happen. They're going to, you know, even with Biden, who was very respectful, they negotiated every single, single detail of who would speak first, who would get a camera angle, every single aspect of the itinerary of a meeting. And this unscripted shoot from the hip, crazy town approach, they're never going to tolerate. And that's why we haven't even, I think Trump has admitted that he's sort of waiting for a phone call from other than congratulatory call, which I guess he got a real proper phone call. And that's not going to happen until they are confident that it's going to be done at least halfway the way they are normally doing business.
- [16:36]
Jamie Rubin
So this really has an impact, this performance, which Trump loves and he's good at. People say, you know, he's. He's really good at it, and he seems to, you know, dominate the space, but maybe it's not good for him or for the United States.
- [16:51]
Christiane Amanpour
Exactly. You put your finger on it. Look, before we go into the future, I think it's worth reflecting. South Africa is very important for a number of reasons, but most importantly, this was the ultimate test of black white relations in the 90s. I remember vividly, I worked for Madeleine Albright under President Clinton. It was 1994, I believe, and the election was taking place. And this was one of the most beautiful moments in modern history when the African people could stand up, every single one of them, black, white, and mixed race, and vote for whoever they wanted to. And we were there as observers. But even then, there were complications. For example, I remember we were basically held hostage in our hotel room because the Zulus, led by a man named Boudelazi, were protesting this agreement between the white leadership and Nelson Mandela's ANC party. He was feeling left out in the cold, and he had his Zulu warriors, dressed like Zulu warriors, demonstrating all through Pretoria and the other major cities. And we were frozen in our hotel room when we were supposed to be out, sort of looking at the election and so the history of this country in South Africa. I remember being at Nelson Mandela's speech to the congress, you know, where tears were in the eyes of members of Congress and everyone who listened to it when he addressed a joint session of Congress. I was a Senate aide at the time under President Biden, then Senator Biden. The reason why this came off so bad and why you were probably so affected by it is because the apartheid, the end of apartheid was one of the signs that our world was getting to be a better place. It coincided with the fall of communism, and there was real optimism in the world. Communism fell, Apartheid fel. These two evil schemes fell, and there was hope that that democratic revolution would spread around the world. Obviously, it didn't.
- [18:47]
Jamie Rubin
I think you're absolutely right. And that moment you're talking about the awesome sight of the Zulus doing their thing again. Ramaphosa was very, very instrumental in talking all of the sides down, the radicals on all sides, on black and white and all the rest of it, on behalf of Nelson Mandela. And, you know, I remember going to Robben Island. I'm have made that historical pilgrimage and seeing Mandela's cell and being taken into the quarry with a blinding light where he would have to Spend hours and hours and hours with other prisoners, you know, hacking away at the stone in the quarry and knowing how he really elevated the fellow prisoners and kept them on the political path even while in prison, and explained how they had to be in order to come out and how they had to be was to able to go towards reconciliation. I remember I used to. Because of Ted Turner. He used to love to make us cover all the U.N. side conferences. There was the U.N. social progress conference, the U.N. denmark or somewhere, right? Yes. Then the U.N. this and that in Denmark. Mandela had come. Mandela had said he was only going to give one interview, and that's to the host country tv, Danish tv. But I found myself away into the bowels and the basement of this UN establishment, I'll bet you. And I went up to where he was coming out of the Danish tv. And I was by hook or by crook, I had my. My pitch prepared and everything. And I was, please, President Mandela, this is cnn. And it goes everywhere. And we were there in your election, and here, there and everywhere. And he came out, and I had it all prepared. And I was confronted by the most dignified human being that I had ever seen in my whole life. And so I thought, well, I can't jump at him now. I'll just wait a little bit. And then he kept waiting, and he had all these incredible, you know, people with him, his. His aides, but not like, you know, you could get. I was this close to him, maybe this close. And I kept following him. They didn't. They didn't push me away.
- [21:00]
Christiane Amanpour
They didn't stop you.
- [21:01]
Jamie Rubin
Finally, I got to the place where he was stood talking to his people. I said, this is it. This is where I'm gonna ask President Mandela to do me an interview right here in the basement as we're standing up. Do you know, I couldn't. I was so in awe. And there was something about that magnetic field around.
- [21:20]
Christiane Amanpour
Even you, who can do pretty much say anything to anybody on any given day, couldn't break through that.
- [21:26]
Jamie Rubin
He was such a. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say a demigod. And I never interviewed him. Okay, so before Ramaphosa, there was the ganging up on Zelensky, and At one point, J.D. vance jumped in and gave him a very, very good scolding.
- [21:43]
Christiane Amanpour
Have you said thank you once this entire meeting?
- [21:46]
C
No, in this entire meeting.
- [21:47]
Christiane Amanpour
Have you said thank you?
- [21:49]
C
You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president. President who's trying to save your country.
- [22:00]
Jamie Rubin
Jamie, didn't Vance when he was a senator say, I don't much care what happens to Ukraine?
- [22:05]
Christiane Amanpour
You're exactly right. Well, let's talk about J.D. vance and the future of American foreign policy in the next section.
- [22:15]
C
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- [22:48]
Christiane Amanpour
Seriously?
- [22:49]
C
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- [23:21]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, we're back. Christiana Mpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin who is over there in Washington and I'm over here in London. So the big picture, Jamie, I guess, is what are the consequences all, all of this and what is the future of foreign policy under President Trump and J.D. vance? Because he's very, very influential on the foreign policy side. And if he is the, the heir to Trump, where, where will it go? So all I can tell you is that I was on the front lines of that battle in February at the Munich Security conference. And you know, everybody had come together to give speeches and this and that, and everybody was waiting to see what the new administration will send. Trump sent his vice president that was a very senior member of the delegation and people were in the plenary room, all these world leaders and ministers of defense and foreign affairs and intelligence experts and ministers from all over the world. And essentially he told them off. He essentially told European allies that the whole playing field had changed. He said things that were completely 180 degrees different from traditional American foreign policy and certainly from the last few years. This is where it started with Zelensky being outed, as you know, the, the, the bad guy and Putin maybe being the ally. And then he told off the European leaders saying he didn't even think Russia or China were the biggest threats to anybody but domestic European policy, by which he meant them trying to make sure that extremists didn't win.
- [25:01]
Christiane Amanpour
JD Vance is an important figure. Not only is he vice president, but remember, he represents the potential future of the Republican Party. After George W. Bush's administration responded to 911 with the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan, the Bush version of foreign policy became discredited both on the right and the left and in the Republican Party. And it was always going to be a question mark of what was going to come next. Donald Trump was then elected and he had this semi isolationist, semi American first, but then people wondered what would come after that. And I think J.D. vance, because look, this is a very smart guy, he wrote a very well received book about his growing up in the hillbilly country, hillbilly elegy. And then he went through the Iraq war and now he's turned himself as an elected official into Trump's number one booster, Trump's number one supporter. And what I'm worried about as an American who cares about our foreign policy is that, look, I don't believe Donald Trump will have a third term. I know people worry about it. It. I'm not worried about that. So there's been some hope in some circles that Trump's second term will be just another blip and then we can get back to normal American foreign policy. But what I'm worried about is that it won't be just such a blip that JD Vance may turn out to be the leader of the Republican Party. He may win the election. And he's now started to identify what I consider a pretty scary version of American foreign policy where he's berating the victim of Russia's aggression. Zelensky, remember, this is a man whose country was invaded. And then he says that we're going to save them when we're not saving them. We've been taking aid away, we're not providing them military assistance. And he tells Europeans the biggest threat to the world is Europeans squelching the AfD, the right wing party, when the biggest threat to our world, to me, and I say this probably in every broadcast, but I can't say it enough is we have podcast, sorry, broadcast podcast is a Russia that's militarized, its entire country supported in full by a billion plus Chinese on the Communist Party of China, fully supporting Russia militarily, economically, diplomatically and Fighting with them in information war. We face these two behemoth countries with extreme powerful capabilities. And we need to gather together the, the, the good guys, the Europeans, the Asians, and the other Middle Eastern countries who want to work with us on a, a world where you don't invade your neighbor and where you, the bullies don't succeed. And with JD Vance running the show, we're going to lose that conflict to Russia and China, I fear.
- [27:45]
Jamie Rubin
The thing is, the everyday changing nature of the policy is, is concerning to me because I don't understand it. So we've just described how JD Vanch laid down a marker at the Munich Security Conference in February. Then just about a month ago, he went to the same organization, to their headquarters in Washington, and told a different story, that Europe and the United States will always be together. That's the basic precis of what he said. What is the real J.D. vance? What is the real policy?
- [28:19]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I don't know. People are going to start looking into this and asking him the hard questions. I think the JD Vance that is fully supportive of Donald Trump for the next three and a half years is the JD Vance that's gonna be seen publicly. There's not gonna be any breaks with Trump. He's Trump's number one booster. Trump has been his ticket to leadership of the Republican Party. And whatever Trump says, he's gonna be the biggest supporter of it. So I don't think that's gonna tell us too much. But what does tell us something, and this is what I've seen, and this is why it's so worrying. Look, J.D. vance is not a senior official in the Republican Party. You know, he only was placed on the ticket by Donald Trump. The senior Republicans that I know and have worked with, and I'm not going to mention their names because they won't like what I'm about to say. Senior leaders of the Republican Party who I've met with privately when I was in the State Department, where I've talked about the threats from China, I've talked about the threats from Russia. Most of them say perfectly rational, thoughtful responses and agree that these are real threats, that America needs to lead an alliance of democratic countries and countries who believe in the world of rules and rights, and that to do that, we need to confront Russia and we need to confront China, and we need to help Ukraine succeed. That's what they tell you when you're having dinner with them, when you're having lunch with them, when you're in a private meeting with them. And then somehow Donald Trump has so intimidated these supposedly strong willed Republican senators and congressmen that when they speak publicly, they speak a completely different tune. That was my one lesson from two years in Washington at the State Department is the Republicans that I went to brief told me one thing in private and another thing in public. And the thing they said in public was driven by their fear of Donald Trump. And that's a shame, because a real debate about these policies would benefit the United States. And if I would make one last point critical of my own party is I don't think we did a good enough job over these last decades in explaining to the American people why America should lead in the world, why it is worth our while to defend South Korea, why it is worth our while to defend the small Baltic states, why America in a leadership role where we're paying for a large defense budget is in our interest. We didn't explain that very well. And so when President Trump came in and threw all these ideas out that are completely different, many young people sort of agree with him on instinct. Why should we defend South Korea? They say.
- [30:44]
Jamie Rubin
So Bridget Brink, who's a Korea foreign service official, she was ambassador to Ukraine. In fact, Donald Trump in his first term had had appointed her ambassador to Slovakia. As is apparently usual protocol when a new administration comes in, ambassadors pro forma offer their resignation. So she did that this time now in Kiev. Donald Trump didn't accept it. He wanted her to remain ambassador in, in Ukraine. But she was so upset about what Vance had said and so upset about sort of conflating enemy and a victim that she decided that she would resign. So she's an active serving ambassador who's now resigned a few weeks ago and she basically is saying that peace at any cost actually is appeasement and she can't be part of that. Actually, you know, some of these Republicans I also met, who's I won't name, but I met them in Munich. Different, different ones that I than you met.
- [31:40]
Christiane Amanpour
You've seen that phenomenon, right?
- [31:42]
Jamie Rubin
Well, they said to me, number one, if we don't do X, Y and Z, if we don't approve X, Y and Z, we will be. And this is a quote, MAGA swarmed. That means all the bots, all the loyalists, all the, you know, they're afraid.
- [31:57]
Christiane Amanpour
And they're afraid of being MAGA swarmed totally.
- [32:00]
Jamie Rubin
Plus one of them told me. Then I thought to myself, I have X billion constituents and I need to have a seat at the table. I need to do as much as I can for my constituents.
- [32:10]
Christiane Amanpour
That's why they'll give in to Trump.
- [32:12]
Jamie Rubin
And then the other one who came out publicly, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Republican senator said it. She said, look, we are all anxious. Retribution is real. Well, look, I think it's endlessly endlessly important and interesting. And it really is, you know, sort of business and personality driven foreign policy. We're gonna have to wait and keep watching. It's interesting that we do this at the end of a holiday weekend, both on my side of the Atlantic. It's what they call a bank holiday. And over with you, it's the end.
- [32:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Of the Memorial Day weekend where we celebrate our soldiers who died in battle. And, you know, nobody wants to see another war. But in understanding what soldiers were fighting for. Let me bring you back to one of my favorite quotes from the Clinton era. The speechwriter's name was Don Baer, and President Clinton went to Normandy for one of the major anniversaries and he described himself and America as we are the children of your sacrifice, I always thought was a very powerful phrase that President Clinton used to describe what happened on D day and how the world they saved. And that's the world I want to see survive. And it won't survive if we keep going in the direction we're going.
- [33:28]
Jamie Rubin
We can't trash that sacrifice, that's for sure. Thanks for listening to this episode. And don't forget, our next episode will be out next week on Tuesday. In the meantime, on Thursday, you can find our bonus episode where we're answering your questions. And if you have any questions for us, don't forget, you can always send them to us on social media@amanpur pod or email amanpourpodlobal.com I don't know why you're so light and I'm so dark in this.
- [33:58]
Christiane Amanpour
It's. This is the difference between America and London, I guess.
- [34:03]
Jamie Rubin
Hold on, let me see if.
- [34:04]
Christiane Amanpour
All right, I'm gonna go use the facilities and then we can do the Q and A.
- [34:09]
Jamie Rubin
Facilities? What are you in a public location? It's called the loo.
- [34:15]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [34:19]
C
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