LA Protests: Trump weaponises his immigration agenda

Summary

Summary of “LA Protests: Trump Weaponizes His Immigration Agenda” – Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files

Release Date: June 10, 2025

In this compelling episode of “Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files”, renowned journalist Christiane Amanpour and former U.S. State Department official Jamie Rubin delve into pressing global and domestic issues, with a particular focus on President Donald Trump's recent actions surrounding immigration, the tumultuous relationship between Trump and Elon Musk, and escalating tensions between the United States and China. Through incisive analysis and insightful dialogue, Amanpour and Rubin unpack the complexities shaping today's geopolitical landscape.

---

1. US Domestic Politics: Trump’s Immigration Agenda and National Guard Deployment

The episode opens with a discussion on President Trump’s unprecedented decision to deploy the National Guard in California to suppress protests against his immigration policies. This move, despite opposition from California Governor Gavin Newsom, has sparked significant debate about the politicization of military forces.

Jamie Rubin criticizes Trump's strategy, stating, “[Trump is] exercising the maximum powers of the commander in chief and the president across the board” ([03:13]). He further explains that Trump aims to incite a “political civil war” over immigration, pitting opponents and supporters against each other for national attention ([04:25]).

Christiane Amanpour adds nuance to this perspective by acknowledging that while the American public supports a tough stance on immigration—a cornerstone of Trump’s platform—there is growing dissatisfaction with the methods employed, such as mass deportations and the circumvention of due process ([05:40]). She emphasizes that Trump is leveraging existing anti-immigration sentiments to further divide the nation.

---

2. The Trump and Elon Musk Feud: Implications of Billionaire Influence

Transitioning to the intersection of politics and business, Amanpour and Rubin explore the fraught relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The hosts discuss whether personal conflicts between these two influential figures have broader implications for U.S. governance and global affairs.

Jamie Rubin offers a critical view of Musk’s foray into government, describing his actions as “using a chainsaw” to dismantle critical international development programs, referencing Musk's controversial approach to aid organization management ([09:03]). He argues that Musk’s attempts to wield governmental power undermine foundational democratic principles and damage America's global reputation.

Christiane Amanpour counters by acknowledging Musk’s technological genius but questions his understanding of governmental operations, pointing out the challenges the current administration faces in rehiring federal workers dismissed under Musk’s leadership ([09:45]).

The discussion underscores the tension between corporate interests and governmental responsibilities, highlighting concerns about the concentration of power in the hands of billionaires.

---

3. US-China Relations: Trade Wars and Superpower Rivalry

A significant portion of the episode is devoted to the escalating tensions between the United States and China. Amanpour and Rubin analyze the recent substantive phone call between President Trump and Chinese leader Xi Jinping, exploring its potential impact on the ongoing trade war and broader geopolitical dynamics.

Christiane Amanpour posits that China aims to ascend as the foremost global superpower and questions whether Trump’s approach may inadvertently aid China’s ambitions ([07:33]).

Jamie Rubin asserts that Trump’s handling of China is fundamentally flawed, arguing that the administration's confrontational stance alienates allies and portrays the U.S. as irresponsible on the global stage ([15:30]). He contends that China's economic and military advancements, coupled with strategic alliances with Russia, pose a significant threat to the existing world order.

---

4. The China-Russia Axis and the Threat to Global Stability

The discussion broadens to examine the alliance between China and Russia, emphasizing the risks this partnership poses to international stability. Amanpour references an article suggesting that while Russia seeks to distance itself from China, the two nations maintain a synchronized front against Western interests ([17:39]).

Jamie Rubin vehemently disagrees with attempts to sever this alliance, describing such strategies as unrealistic and labeling the collaboration between China and Russia as a formidable challenge to the established global order ([18:41]). He highlights the militaristic cooperation between the two nations, including Russia’s support for North Korea and ongoing conflicts in Ukraine.

---

5. Potential Conflicts: Taiwan and the South China Sea

A critical area of concern highlighted in the episode is China’s aggressive stance towards Taiwan and its military buildup in the South China Sea. Amanpour raises the alarming possibility of China attempting to forcibly unify Taiwan with the mainland, questioning the adequacy of U.S. commitments to Taiwan’s defense.

Jamie Rubin warns of the imminent threat, predicting that China’s declaration to "unify by any means necessary" ([36:06]) could lead to military conflict. He speculates that the international community, including the U.S. and its allies, may be compelled to intervene to protect Taiwan, potentially igniting a broader regional war.

---

6. Historical Context and Leadership Dynamics

Towards the episode’s conclusion, Amanpour reflects on historical interactions with Chinese leadership, contrasting the more open demeanor of former President Hu Jintao with Xi Jinping’s authoritarian rule. She recounts personal experiences that illustrate the shift from a formalistic and cooperative China to one led by a dictator with imperialistic ambitions.

Jamie Rubin elaborates on Xi Jinping’s consolidation of power and his aggressive foreign policies, underscoring the fundamental miscalculations made by previous U.S. administrations in engaging China economically while neglecting its political trajectory ([25:13]). He criticizes the Trump administration for weakening U.S. alliances and fostering chaos through erratic diplomatic tactics ([30:59]).

---

7. Conclusion and Future Outlook

In wrapping up, Amanpour and Rubin express deep concerns about the current global climate, marked by multiple conflicts and the looming threat of a large-scale war involving major world powers. Amanpour reflects on past engagements with China, emphasizing the drastic transformation under Xi Jinping’s leadership, while Rubin underscores the urgent need for strategic alliances and coherent policies to counterbalance China’s rise.

Christiane Amanpour poignantly summarizes the dire situation: “We’re in two horrendous wars right now in the Middle East, as you mentioned, Russia, Ukraine. And to think that there’ll be another one which will be so difficult to contain. Let’s just hope that leadership rises to the occasion because this is a very dark period” ([37:07]).

The episode closes with a call for listeners to stay informed and engaged, highlighting the critical nature of the issues discussed and the necessity for effective leadership to navigate these tumultuous times.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Jamie Rubin: “[Trump is] exercising the maximum powers of the commander in chief and the president across the board.” ([03:13])

• Christiane Amanpour: “President Trump is riding a wave that exists even here in Europe of anti immigration.” ([05:40])

• Jamie Rubin: “We are unlike any other country in the world. We are based on an idea. We are based on democratic principles of individual liberty.” ([05:40])

• Jamie Rubin: “Donald Trump insults his country, same with Asian allies.” ([15:30])

• Jamie Rubin: “Xi Jinping’s takeover of the Chinese government...he’s staying indefinitely.” ([23:20])

• Jamie Rubin: “When Donald Trump insults his allies, it raises questions in the minds of our allies of whether it's safe to be friend to the United States.” ([30:59])

---

This episode of “The Ex Files” provides a thorough examination of the intersecting challenges facing the United States and the world, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the intricate web of domestic policies and international relations shaping our era.

Transcript

[Jamie Rubin]

This is a Global Player original podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Where are you, Jamie?

[Jamie Rubin]

I'm in Manhattan in a house that's being reconstructed that used to be owned by Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, my God. Honestly, I think he only gets houses owned by famous, famous actresses.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, but one of the downsides of that is that it is Manhattan and it's after 9am and you know what that means. There's noise, there's a jackhammer right outside that may pipe up at any moment.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This week there are two major standoffs that we're going to talk about. With global fallout at home, President Trump pushes another new boundary as he uses the military to enforce his political agenda. What's going to come of that? And abroad, China, perhaps the biggest threat to the west and to the United States, period. Now, Xi and Trump, I think, finally spoke for the first time this week. There'll be talks now to try to figure out the trade war which has caused so much chaos. China wants to take over, Jamie, I think as world superpower. And the question is, is Trump playing into Xi's hands? And also we're gonna touch on the, I don't know, is it a reality show? But the famous fallout between Trump and Elon Musk and who stands to lose the most? Hello and welcome to the X Files where with me, Christiana Manpour and Jamie Rubin, I'm a longtime correspondent for CNN, have been in the field for the last 30 years and I now have a show in which I try to hold world leaders accountable.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I am a two time senior diplomat at the State Department under Presidents Biden and President Clinton.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And we also happen to be a married couple. We were married for 20 years, divorced for seven, hence the X in the X Files. And we figured that if we can have a conversation about some of the most polarizing, alienating topics, politics, hopefully other people can, especially world leaders, because we really need to find some way to have rational discussions over what's plaguing the world and how to find solutions. Jamie, you're in that apartment this weekend. I was in France. You see my T shirt roll on garros. It's the French Open tennis. And I think everybody in the world will remember where they were. Five and a half hours of the men's final between Alcaraz and Sinna and it was just a four triumph of tennis. It was brilliant. And the day before was brilliant for women's tennis too. The American Coco Golf won against the number one arena, Sabalenka. It was really, really tremendous. But listen, it's a Good way to start off our confrontations and our global standoffs for today's episode. So, everybody, we're going to do something a little unusual. We are going to start with some of the hot topics that are going on in the United States and have been over the last several days. The first is the extraordinary, some say, historic, deployment by President Trump of the National Guard into California to quell protests over his immigration agenda. This despite Governor Gavin Newsom of California, who never wanted the National Guard deployed.

[Jamie Rubin]

This is the latest in President Trump's weaponization of government. He's exercising the maximum powers of the commander in chief and the president across the board. And you gotta remember, if there's one theme that ties together all of Trump's behavior and all of his policies, it relates to immigration. And he wants to make a civil war in our country over immigration. I say that as a political civil war. He wants to see a battle between those like him who see immigrants as a threat across the board, a presumption of a threat, versus those who see our country as a nation of immigrants, who believe that immigration needs to be controlled. But it's a good thing in general. It's allowed America to grow and be successful. So using the National Guard is his device to try to create a political battle that will be vivid on the television screens of the people of the United States. And Stephen Miller, his deputy chief of staff, who's the hawk on immigration, has seen this as a great device to dramatize the battle over immigration.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The thing is here, Jamie, the majority, certainly of his voters, and maybe even the majority of the American people, want a tough hand on immigration. That was a huge part of his election victory. And they still do. Now they're not so happy with the deportations and the, you know, no rule of law, no due process and things like that. And I remember, you know, just before the inauguration, the outgoing head of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorka, said he believed that once ordinary Americans saw their own neighbors, the people who may work for them, the people who they, you know, send their children to school with and see all the time, wouldn't stand for this. You know, amped up crackdown and arrest and deportations. And we've seen all the flights that have gone out in the past, even despite the judges judge's rulings that the American people wouldn't stand for it. And it's true that the polls show they don't like the way it's being handled, but they still like a tough hand on immigration. And it's a thing. It's just a thing. President Trump is riding a wave that exists even here in Europe of anti immigration.

[Jamie Rubin]

You're absolutely right. This is a policy that the Democratic Party has not come to grips with. There is every reason to make sure that illegal immigration is handled properly, with criminal charges, with a proper immigration service that prevents and minimizes illegal immigration. But to do so in the way that President Trump is doing it casts doubt on the fundamental principles of our country. Remember, we are unlike any other country in the world. We are based on an idea. We are based on democratic principles of individual liberty. And we are a nation of immigrants. So we need to remember where we came from, what made us strong, what made us great. But until the Democratic Party figures out a way to talk tough on illegal immigration, but also pay tribute to legal immigration, which is what I believe in, then we're gonna suffer from this wave you're talking about because it's true that that all over the world, immigration is a political hot potato, and the Democratic Party hasn't figured out how to talk about it. And I'll just give you one example of that. We should remember that when Biden was chosen as the nominee in 2020, other candidates on the stage of those debates were in favor of open borders. That was madness. And it was that madness that opened the way for the opponents of open borders, including myself, to say, what's going on with the Democratic Party? And that helped, I believe, generate the opinions and the political power for those who helped Trump win the election in 2024. The Democratic Party hasn't come to grips with immigration. Until it does, we're going to be a minority party.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We should move on to Elon Musk and Donald Trump. Does it matter? Does it matter? It's just two big billionaires with huge platforms who've broken up very publicly and now with so much vitriol. But what does it actually matter? You know, a lot of people think Musk is going to come out on top. Personally, I'm not sure, because the President of the United States is the President of the United States with all the powers accorded and all of those that he takes.

[Jamie Rubin]

I've tried to become a bit of an analyst of the behavior of billionaires and political leaders and how they respect and are jealous and envious of each other in different ways. And I've seen that over the last 30 years. Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, wanted to exercise government power because government does have a unique power. Military power, economic power, bureaucratic power. And he tried to play dictator of our bureaucracy. And he did some things for which the millions of people are going to suffer around the world, and that is the destruction of the agents for international development, which he happily described as, you know, a crazy place that he was going to use a chainsaw on. This is the place that provides assistance, medical assistance, crucial prevention of disease for people all over the world, and was something Americans were proud of and the people of the world respected America for. That's what Elon Musk's legacy will be in his, whatever, 90 days with his chainsaw.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Can we just put a figure on that? Because I read a figure of 55,000 deaths overseas from AIDS alone because of gutting PEPFAR, which was president Bush. President George W. Bush's transformative AIDS prevention plan for Africa saved tens of millions of lives.

[Jamie Rubin]

And it shows you what happens when, you know, a man like Elon Musk, who is very wealthy, thinks he knows everything and is completely ignorant of the way the world really works because he lives in his own redemption, ridiculous bubble where people just tell him how brilliant he is in his behavior. He did terrible damage. And so the fact that he's gone from the White House is fine with me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But first of all, he is a genius. I mean, he is a genius in terms of the technology, in terms of what he's done, and that is still going to be very, very relevant. But secondly, on the ax and the chainsaw, you know, the government is now, the administration is now in the United States trying to hire back many of the federal workers who were summarily, basically kicked out by Doge because they don't have people to run the bureaucracy anymore, at least parts of it, or probably a lot.

[Jamie Rubin]

It just shows you that he's not such a genius. You know, he may be smart in certain areas. He may be smart in certain areas, but it doesn't necessarily translate. And what he did in his time in government, by and large, was damage our country, perhaps irreparably in terms of our reputation, for the arrogance of coming to destroy aid with a chainsaw. That is going to be one of his legacies in his obituary, whenever that happens. And all I can tell you about Trump and Musk is it will be interesting to see whether Musk is as tough as he claims he's going to be because he's got this megaphone called X. Will he use it? Will he use it to show the hypocrisy of the Republican government right now, where they talk a big game on deficit reduction and then they add trillions to the debt, where they talk a good game on doing good for the people of the United States and where the actual bill is designed to enrich the wealthiest people in the country and do harm to those who need government's assistance the most. There's a hypocrisy at the core of the Republican leadership of our country right now. I'd be interested to see whether Elon Musk has the guts to stand up to Trump now that he's separated from him. And he probably doesn't, because these billionaires, we've learned over and over again, all they care about is their own billions. And so he's worried about his own company, and he doesn't care about any principles other than what's good for Elon Musk.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And to that point, it's been described as sort of a. At least a tenuous truce between them. Elon has deleted certain posts over the last couple of days. He has stopped saying that he would primary people who don't vote his way on this beautiful bill or whatever it is. So he's got a lot at stake with all those government contracts. And President Trump, as I said, has the power of the presidency to do whatever I guess he wants. So that's Trump and his domestic challenges abroad. As we said, there is China, which is the biggest threat to the west and to the United States. Presidents Trump and Xi last week finally had their first substantive phone call. The upshot, as far as we saw in a readout, was that Xi asked Trump to call off the China hawks in Washington, D.C. but they are apparently going to be talking in London, their teams, over how to tamp down this trade war which can affect the whole world, each and every one of us, in terms of finances and our pocketbooks.

[C]

So you want to start a business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but you don't. You just need Godaddy Arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing even when I don't. And I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle glasses. But I'm an actor. I don't know what I'm doing. I needed help. Godaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. I didn't even realize I needed a social media calendar. GoDaddy Arrow will take your idea. That sounds good. And make a business that looks like you know what you're doing. GoDaddy Arrow can get your business up and running in minutes. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] Aero that's godaddy.com Airo.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, Jamie, there are two camps in Washington, right? Those who are hawks on China and those who would rather try to see if they could bring China in and try to, I don't know, try to figure out a safer, more productive world by engagement rather than decoupling.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yes, there are two camps. Yes, China would like the China hawks to be quiet. I think the problem here is that the negotiations about economic decoupling are going on while China is threatening the world with the largest military buildup of modern times, the largest naval buildup, the largest missile buildup, while China is providing crucial assistance to Russia to continue its war in Ukraine. So for me, as a foreign policy person, as opposed to just an economics person, I look at China in both contexts as a producer and a manufacturer. Manufacturer and as a holder of critical minerals and rare earths that we need, which they are threatening to withhold from us, but also as a threat to the world order of rules and rights that we've become used to. And so if we let China run rampant in Asia, if we let China continue to help Russia and we don't connect our foreign policy to this larger challenge, I think we'd be making a mistake. If that puts me in the camp of being a China hawk, fine. I think it's being someone who's looking out for the interests of the Wests.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, Jamie, we've discussed quite a lot, you know, how Trump is handling these huge global issues. I know you and many think he's right to identify China as a threat to the U.S. do you think it's going well so far? Is he doing it right?

[Jamie Rubin]

No, it's not going well at all. Right now, the world is, believe it or not, looking at China as a responsible country. And the United States is the irresponsible country looking to China to lead a normal functioning of the global economy and scared and frustrated and frankly, furious with Donald Trump for raising the question of tariffs with every single country in the world. Instead of using the, you know, the. The old playbook of thinking that the American market is the be all and end all for the world, he should be building alliances, he should be strengthening alliances. Instead of insulting our friends and sucking up to our adversaries, he should be building alliances. And the French president has pointed out that he just can't operate. Every day Donald Trump insults his country, same with Asian allies. So, no, things are not going well. The economic decoupling that is going on and is going to go on and ought to go on, but it ought to be done smartly and it ought to be done with an eye towards keeping the democratic nations and the nations that believe in the rules and rights we believe in on the same side and leaving China, Russia and others on the other side. But instead, we're the outlier and China appears responsible.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Jamie, you just talked about alliances. There was an article recently that suggested Russia, which, as we've talked about, has such a close relationship with China on just about everything, including its war in Ukraine, that Russia actually sees China and calls China an enemy because it's afraid that China will take advantage of whatever vulnerability Russia might have and sort of press its case even territorially along their. Along their shared border. But it also suggested that part of Trump's relationship, if you like, with Putin is also in part about trying to prize Russia. Putin away from Xi's China. How do you think that's going?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, this is the great dream of the armchair strategists, the juvenile perception that we can pull a reverse Kissinger, they call it. Somehow we can. Instead of working with China to break China from Russia, as Kissinger did, it's to work with Russia to break Russia from China. They imagine not going to happen. Dream O vision on the things that matter to us. Russia and China are synchronized. The war in Ukraine being the primary thing I'm talking about, but more so that Russia and China together pose a very, very great risk of undermining the world that we've come to know for the last 75 years, where every country has the right to operate, that it can choose its alliances, that it can't be bullied. And Russia and China believe that it's okay for Russia to invade Ukraine. As bad as Donald Trump has been in bullying his allies, he hasn't invaded his neighbor. He's threatened to. In the case of.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, he's definitely threatened to. Yeah.

[Jamie Rubin]

But it's a big difference between actual invasion and big talk.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And just another note on this before we sort of broaden it out a little bit. It's not just Russia and China. It's Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and this sort of axis of anti Americanism or anti Western axis that they have developed. I mean, do you see any way that that might sort of weaken.

[Jamie Rubin]

You're right. To Point that out. There is a real axis in the milit and security sphere between Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. North Korea, for example, has benefited greatly from military assistance from Russia and is now a much greater threat to our friends in South Korea and Japan than it ever was because Russia's helping them while they're helping Russia by sending actual troops into Europe to fight a war against the Ukrainian people. Iran is the hope, I would say the one area where President Trump may indeed make some progress, primarily because Iran is feeling on the back foot. Their economy is nearly destroyed. They may make an agreement with the United States and the Europeans to get out of this so called nuclear crisis we're in that will open up the Iranian economy to the West. Right now Iran relies on China and Russia to survive. I don't think that's what their people want, but unfortunately their leaders have done that. But we may be able to get out of that. Of the four, I would say that's our best chance.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Talking about people there are, you know, of course I know a lot of people in Iran and there's so much dissatisfaction and the economy is really biting so, so hard, you know, from the infrastructure to the ordinary people. And they really do want to see an opening to the West. I think the Iranian people are fairly unique in that Muslim Middle east part of the world because they are very pro Western, the actual people and they are incredibly well educ. One of the reasons they elected the previous more reform minded president, who was Rouhani, who went into the first nuclear deal that was with the Obama administration. They wanted to see the sanctions lifted and they wanted to be able to have relations with the west again. So, yes, the people are very much against what's going on inside and with their own government. So we're going to go into the next segment and we're going to talk more about some of the stories and some of the personal dynamics. We're going to ask what is Xi and Trump's dynamic? But also we're going to talk about Xi's incredibly hard childhood. I mean, he had a really, really, really bad childhood and it clearly frames him and how he's acting as, you know, CEO of China, frankly, since he got there more than 10 years ago. That's when we come back.

[C]

So you want to start a business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but you don't. You just need Godaddy Arrow. I'm Walton Goggins and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing even when I don't. And I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins goggle glasses. But I'm an actor. I don't know what I'm doing. I needed help. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo. It'll create a custom website, It'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. I didn't even realize I needed a social media calendar. GoDaddy Arrow will take your idea that sounds good and make a business that looks like you know what you're doing. GoDaddy Arrow can get your business up and running in minutes. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] Arrow that's godaddy.com A I R O.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so we're back continuing our conversation on the very real crisis, some would say threat, that China presents, including in its dysfunctional relationship now with the United States. So, Jamie, obviously, China policy has ebbed and flowed and changed with various different US Administrations. The question now, though, is, as China was kind of biding its time, working its way up the superpower ladder, do you think it's clearly now made the decision that it wants to be the superpower, that it wants to overtake the United States as the world's dominant power and that the US and the west have somehow enabled that in a way by trying to bring China in?

[Jamie Rubin]

Yes. And yes. Xi Jinping's takeover of the Chinese government. And remember, prior to him, there was more of a group dynamic to their leadership. He's a proper dictator. He's a proper emperor. He's now gotten rid of term limits. He's staying indefinitely. The people around him treat him effectively as an emperor, and he behaves like an emperor wanting the world to pay obeisance, to pay tribute to China as the greatest power in the world. Yes, that is his objective. He's made that absolutely clear. Prior to Xi Jinping, it was their objective, but it was quiet now. Did we all make a terrible mistake? You know, in retrospect, yes, we made a terrible mistake, beginning under President Nixon and Carter, to think that bringing China in economically would have an impact on their political objectives and their style of government. There were people who used to say, and I never believed this, but I used to study it, that when China reached a certain economic level, they would have to become more democratic, they would have to become transparent. Their government would necessarily become more normal. In Our view, rather than a Leninist Communist Party state that they are today. And so we misjudged the effect of economic growth on China's political system. They did bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, and to that extent, we were successful. But the result is a Leninist based Communist Party that does believe that it should rule the world, and that does believe that might makes right. And they've done that and behaved that way with India, with South Korea, with Japan, with all of their neighbors. And I think at a minimum, they want to basically push the United States out of Asia.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So that sort of goes to the sphere of influence kind of philosophy that certainly Trump appears to have, certainly Xi has, and certainly Putin has. Putin talks about it all the time. I just wondered, suddenly, as we're talking about China, I have this image in my head of Deng Xiaoping, who was the supreme leader after Mao, coming to America and wearing a cowboy hat. That was a really different time than there is now. And also America really wanted to have Chinese students, Chinese scientists, sort of any brain drain was really beneficial to the United States. And I just wonder also whether there's a lot to be said for free trade that softens the edges of friction and divisions and maybe makes it less likely that there will be a blow up of any kind of military or other way or a complete collapse of the global economy. Surely free trade and trying to bring China in to act in a way that contributes to the rest of the world and its stability is the right way to go. I mean, I really don't know what the option is. How do you stop it?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, that was a common view. It is a common view among many people still today that somehow we need to soften the edges and increase contact and promote people to people exchanges and build understanding and mutual respect between our two peoples and that that will in the end benefit us by preventing war, essentially, and that that would all be fine and good if China hadn't changed. Remember, Bush, Obama, Clinton, all had the same policy, help bring China into the world. And under the previous leaders, China didn't appear to be seeking to dominate the way it is today. Then Xi Jinping became the leader and he got rid of term limits and he started oppressing his own people. And he started threatening India, threatening South Korea, threatening Jap, threatening to rule the South China Sea and engaging in the largest military buildup of modern times, naval missile nuclear forces. What's it all for? If we really want to have mutual understanding, the Chinese need to explain what is this massive military buildup for they have never given a good answer to that. They've never been prepared to discuss their nuclear forces and the way Russia has as part of an arms control agreement.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, when you talk about Obama administration, I mean, just as an aside, I remember we went to a state dinner for then President Hu Jintao, who was one of those who the west was trying to bring in and who was a different kind of person, as you've described, than President Xi. He came just before Xi. And I remember being in the official, you know, in the receiving line. And I guess once a journalist, always a journalist. I basically said to hu Jintao, hello, Mr. President, I would love to host you on my program. And you can tell the world, you know, what's going on in China and relations with the United States. Obama gave me the evil eye, and I just thought, oh, man, never going to be invited back. But, hey, you've got to grab your opportunities where you can. I figured a state dinner was the closest I was going to get to this particular Chinese leader.

[Jamie Rubin]

But think about what they what Jinping did to Hu Jintao. We all saw it on television. There was a meeting of the leadership of China, and the emperor Xi Jinping had Hu Jintao removed from the meeting while he was trying to talk. This is a brutal system that requires the survival of the fittest and the toughest and the meanest, and that's who we're dealing with. And anyone who imagines that you can, as President Trump does, that you can somehow talk him into a different policy, doesn't understand China and doesn't understand how they do business. The Chinese government makes decisions and the leader makes decisions, and he doesn't have a conversation with Donald Trump and go, oh, gee, I hadn't thought of that. I'm going to change my mind and give you some rare earths, or going to let the South China Sea be adjudicated by an international system of justice rather than China takes it all. This is a leader that is so tough and so mean and grew up in such difficult circumstances that he became tough and mean. And we need to remember that when we're dealing with it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

He had a brutal childhood. I mean, you know, as much as one could know about about him, his father was fairly prominent and then fell afoul in a bad way of the Cultural Revolution, Mao's. And then later on, Xi himself tells his story, at least this is how it's written of. Even when he managed to escape and there were beatings and he slept on a cold floor and this went on For a long, long time, he managed to escape, to reach his home and beg his mother for shelter and food. And the mother was so either indoctrinated or terrified of the system that she refused and essentially reported him and sent him back. I mean, that's the kind of upbringing that he had. But just a thing, Jamie, you know, you say China says we're the biggest country we can, but, you know, where does America stand when suddenly reverts to survival of the of the fittest? This is, you know, the strong survive, et cetera. When it talks about the Panama Canal and Canada and Greenland, we may think it's just rhetoric, but it's playing right into those strong man territorial hands, really. I mean, where does the US get off when. When Xi says to me, hang on a second, you say, we can't have this, but you've just said that about everything in your hemisphere.

[Jamie Rubin]

And that's the damage that Donald Trump has done to the American government's way of life, to the people of the country and to the world by raising this idea that America would have its sphere of influence in South America, Panama, maybe Greenland. China can have its sphere of influence in Asia, and Russia can do what it wants in Eastern Europe. That's the kind of message that Donald Trump's rhetoric brings to mind. And you can imagine him thinking, ooh, gee, this would be fun. I can sit down with Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping in a meeting, and the three of us can carve up the world. That's not the America that Republican and Democratic presidents have been promoting for the last 75 years. It's a very different version, and it's one that puts at risk the alliances that we've had with Asians, with Europeans, with countries in the Middle east, which is our central power. We are the first leader of the world that has voluntary alliances. Our empire is voluntary, unlike the British Empire or the Roman Empire. We have voluntary associations with over 100 countries where we deploy forces or we have treaty alliances. These are voluntary. And when Donald Trump says and does these things, it raises questions in the minds of our allies of whether it's safe to be friend to the United States. And then he treats everyone the same in his economic warfare, and thus we're in chaos. And you're absolutely right. It makes it harder for America to convince our allies and Europe and Asia to show that China needs to be put in some form of containment because of the threat that it poses.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I tell you, this has been a long time coming. I just flashing back to 1978 when it was still seriously communist China. I'm talking about. And I went on some quasi official trip from Iran in the summer of 1978. And we were taken all over. There were no cars for anybody except a few officials and us as guests. Everybody was on bicycles. Everybody, men, women and children were wearing the same, what we called the Mao uniform, the sort of, you know, high collared khaki uniform. I remember even talking to our female guide and one of us asked, asked her, you know, does she, does she like to wear makeup? Makeup, God forbid we must all look the same, think the same, do the same. I'd hate to stand out. Honestly, I remember this, you know, to, to, to this day. And then we were taken to these to see their incredible achievements. So they took us to the. They call them children's palaces. And there were these children who were barely yay high, honestly, they were tiny and just, just barely poking their noses above, let's say, a ping pong table and playing ping pong like world champions. It was incredible. And for a long time they were practicing to be brilliant. And the same in the violin lessons and the same in all the other spots that we visited. It was this mass mobilization of excellence and numbers. It was incredible. It's never left me.

[Jamie Rubin]

All of the visits that I took to China with Secretary Albright and others, you have to realize that they are a formalistic society. And Donald Trump's idea that you can suddenly mix it up with the leader of China and get new decisions and fix all the problems in a meeting, which he thinks he's done in real estate deals all over the world. Yeah, maybe in real estate. We're dealing with the largest country in the world led by an emperor who decides privately what they're gonna do and then implements it. And he's not gonna be affected by sweet words from Donald Trump. They are a formalistic diplomatic system. And when you get to the leader, the decisions have already been made. And don't think you can change his mind. One example, I remember vividly accompanying Madeleine Albright to the Women's conference with Secretary then First Lady Hillary Clinton. And the surveillance they did on us was so dramatic that one day Madeleine was in a room flipping through the TV channels and sud. Suddenly she got to a channel of the people spying on her with their headphones on, listening to her. And so we need to remember, they may put on a smiling face, but these are ruthless, tough negotiators and ruthless, tough intelligence officials. And this country is something that we need to be wary of.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, Edward Snowden told us about the US Scraping everybody's surveillance and intelligence and data and all the rest of it. You know, it's tricky, but I hear you. Okay, Jamie, So with all of that, the aggressive buildup in the South China Seas, et cetera, how real is the threat that China has over Taiwan, saying, by any means necessary, we will unite again into one country, and at the same time, I don't know, we don't have an outspoken pledge of any type by President Trump on the traditional American policy to protect Taiwan somehow?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, that's correct. And I think in the coming year or two, we'll find out whether Xi Jinping means what he says, because he's claimed that within that time frame, they're going to be ready, willing and able to threaten to return Taiwan into the fold of the Communist Party of China. In which case, I believe there will be a war. I believe that in some way or another, the west, the United States, Japan, others will come to the aid of the Taiwanese people if China invades. The only alternative I can see is some sort of blockade. And in that case, we could see an extended crisis in which China surrounds Taiwan without actually going to war. And then we'll find out what the Taiwanese people are made of and what the world is made of. Will they let. Let China do to Taiwan what Russia has done to Ukraine? And that's the fundamental threat we face over the next couple of years.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I have to say, it's really depressing. We're in two horrendous wars right now in the Middle east, as you mentioned, Russia, Ukraine. And to think that there'll be another one which will be so difficult to contain. Let's just hope that leadership rises to the occasion because this is a very dark period. Otherwise, that's it for this week. Thank you all for listening and watching. Make sure you're following the feed so you never miss an episode. And we'll see you on Thursday for our bonus episode where we answer your questions. So keep them coming because we do love hearing from you. Email [e-mail] or find us on social media. Amanpour podcast. You can also listen to Christiana Monport presents the X Files on Global Player. Download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com can anybody see my beautiful peach colored, some might say red clay court?

[Jamie Rubin]

I see the color. I see Roland Garro.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Roland Garro.

[Jamie Rubin]

Sase. Roland Garro.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Garros.

[Jamie Rubin]

Garros. This is a Global Player original podcast.

[C]

So you want to start a business you might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but you don't. You just need godaddy Arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing even when I don't. And I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins goggle glasses. But I'm an actor. I don't know what I'm doing. I needed help. Godaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. I didn't even realize I needed a social media calendar. Godaddy Arrow will take your idea. That sounds good. And make a business that looks like you know what you're doing. Godaddy Arrow can get your business up and running in minutes. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] aero that's godaddy.com airo.