Q&A: No Kings protest, the fall of Assad and Obama’s infamous red line

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Q&A: No Kings protest, the fall of Assad and Obama’s infamous red line”

Podcast: Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Hosts: Christiane Amanpour & Jamie Rubin
Date: October 22, 2025

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Overview

In this candid and fast-paced Q&A bonus episode, veteran journalist Christiane Amanpour and her ex-husband Jamie Rubin, a former US State Department official, field listeners’ questions on current global crises. They tackle the symbolism of the "No Kings" protest in America, the dramatic fall and disappearance of Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, the ongoing consequences of Barack Obama’s “red line” on Syria, the controversy around Donald Trump’s potential Nobel Peace Prize, and the realities of international justice in the age of rising authoritarianism. The duo blends personal anecdotes, insider insights, and sharp debate, maintaining their trademark mix of searing honesty and wry rapport.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The “No Kings” Protest & American Democracy ([00:33–02:56])

• Jamie Rubin links the “No Kings” protest to American founding principles:

  • Warns of Trump’s “authoritarian” tendencies:

    “President Trump is exploiting every avenue he can to turn the presidency into an authoritarian system...” (00:53)

  • Notes recent nationwide protests and invokes the American Revolution’s origins:

    “If Americans cannot care enough about their own democracy… then we’re going to go downhill fast.” (01:38)

  • Sees a glimmer of hope in judicial pushback and grassroots resistance:

    “I believe there is pushback in the courts.” (02:41)

• Christiane Amanpour draws European royal parallels:

  • Describes scrutiny of “king” displays in the US and Europe, highlighting Trump’s self-portrayal and contemporary royal scandals (e.g., Prince Andrew):

    “It’s a little bit sort of democracy coming to the royal family, in a way.” (03:30)

  • Mentions French outrage over the daring theft of crown jewels:

    “It’s really knocked them for six there in France.” (04:19)

2. Where is Assad? The Fragmented Future of Syria ([04:28–06:04])

• Question from Annie (YouTube): What happened to Bashar al-Assad after fleeing to Russia?

• Christiane Amanpour explains Assad’s political disappearance:

  • Assad “has completely disappeared” and is rumored to be seeking relevance in Russia.
  • Syria’s interim president Ahmad Al Shara speaks of democracy, but recent sectarian violence casts doubt on Syria’s stability.
  • Ongoing Israeli military activity and the specter of fragmentation loom large:

    “It is very worrying… what can be recuperated and restored from his departure.” (05:53)

• Jamie Rubin contextualizes Syria’s humanitarian legacy:

  • Reminds listeners that "500,000 people were murdered... during their civil war" (06:08)
  • Critiques US inaction under Obama:

    “The United States stood idly by and let Assad do what he did... Not even when President Obama threatened to use force over the issue of chemical weapons.” (06:53)

  • Points to the ripple effect: Russia’s growing audacity regionally, and the creation of Europe’s refugee crisis.

3. Obama’s “Red Line,” US Policy, and the Syrian War ([06:04–10:52])

• Jamie Rubin—Surprisingly, credits Trump’s limited military strikes:

  • Argues Trump “used [US power] more wisely in Syria than Barack Obama did.” (07:42)
  • Suggests Trump’s threats deterred regime violence in Idlib and inadvertently enabled Assad’s fall.

• Christiane Amanpour offers a counterpoint:

  • Cites former NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg’s account: Obama “did believe that force was right… collapsed when they decided to go to Congress.” (08:47)

• Rubin’s forceful rebuttal:

  • Denies Obama’s convictions; claims Obama went to Congress to avoid acting:

    “He chose to go to Congress specifically because he knew that Congress would support him...” (09:16)

  • Criticizes Chief of Staff Denis McDonough’s advice and the lack of strategic foresight:

    “When you’re a chief of staff, you’re supposed to give your boss the hard news, not the easy news.” (09:52)

• Christiane injects nuance:

  • Notes the double standard: when Trump bypasses Congress, many express outrage. (10:52)

4. Trump, Gaza, and the Nobel Peace Prize Debate ([11:46–13:32])

• Karen (email): Should Trump win the Nobel if the Gaza ceasefire holds? Would this whitewash his legacy?

• Jamie Rubin voices ambivalence:

  • Personally opposes Trump, but accepts Nobel motivation if it leads to peace:

    “If getting the Nobel Prize is the motivation for him doing that, fine.” (12:53)

    • Notable quote: “I ain’t going to wear no MAGA hat. But I’m happy to accept that they give him a prize. If he does the hard work of keeping the peace in Gaza...” (13:12)

• Christiane Amanpour highlights Trump’s lack of follow-through, connecting failed Gaza peace to his abandoned North Korea summit:

  “What could have been a success... didn’t, because Trump didn’t follow up...” (13:38)

  • Urges persistent US engagement for lasting peace.

5. Prosecuting Trump at the International Criminal Court ([14:21–17:33])

• Donna (email): Could Trump ever be tried at the ICC if the US joined?

• Christiane Amanpour:

  • Theoretically possible but extremely unlikely; US political realities make ICC membership virtually impossible.

    “The likelihood of the US Becoming a member is precisely zero...” (14:32)

• Jamie Rubin:

  • ICC matters most when domestic courts fail—right now, the US legal system is functioning, however slowly.

    “What I worry about with the ICC is what happens when international law... goes astray.” (15:04)

  • Cites Kosovo tribunal failures as a cautionary tale; international justice serves reconciliation only when it's fair and targeted.

• Christiane Amanpour reaffirms the ICC’s positive legacy in Bosnia and Rwanda, while recognizing its potential to “go rogue.” (17:27)

• Jamie Rubin stresses: “The purpose of international justice is to get accountability for the people who actually did crimes…” (16:55)

6. Personal Note: Jamie’s Middle East “Cramp” ([17:33–18:51])

• Kirsty (Instagram): Playful question about Jamie’s stress-induced cramps when discussing the Middle East.

• Jamie Rubin laughs it off, shares aging anecdote:

  “I am 65 and... as you get older, your body changes. I’ve been taking glucosamine... I don’t have a cramp today...” (18:14)

  • Still, the Middle East “is enough to drive anybody to distraction.” (18:45)

• Both agree: only sustained, “top down” US leadership can foster lasting peace, invoking Bill Clinton’s phrase:

  “The quiet miracle of a normal life. That can only happen if the United States and world leaders... do the hard work of pursuing peace in the Middle east.” (18:51)

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Memorable Quotes

• Jamie Rubin: “President Trump is exploiting every avenue he can to turn the presidency into an authoritarian system...” (00:53)
• Christiane Amanpour: “It’s a little bit sort of democracy coming to the royal family, in a way.” (03:30)
• Jamie Rubin: “...We rebelled and revolted and created the world’s first democracy.” (01:27)
• Jamie Rubin: “Trump understood the power of the United States sometimes and used it more wisely in Syria than Barack Obama did.” (07:42)
• Christiane Amanpour: “What could have been a success... didn’t, because Trump didn’t follow up...” (13:38)
• Jamie Rubin: “I ain’t going to wear no MAGA hat. But I’m happy to accept that they give him a prize...” (13:12)
• Jamie Rubin: “The purpose of international justice is to get accountability for the people who actually did crimes so that a group is not blamed for the crime, assigning individual responsibility and eliminating collective guilt.” (16:55)
• Christiane Amanpour: “The quiet miracle of a normal life.” (19:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• No Kings Protest: 00:33–04:28
• Fall of Assad/Syria’s Future: 04:28–06:04
• Obama’s Red Line and the US Role in Syria: 06:04–10:52
• Trump, Gaza Peace Talks, and Nobel Prize Debate: 11:46–13:32
• International Criminal Court & US Accountability: 14:21–17:33
• Jamie’s Middle East “Cramp” & Reflections on Peace: 17:33–19:48

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Tone and Style

• Format and energy: Conversational, sharp, often humorous, with moments of pointed debate and self-deprecating wit.
• Language: Clear, direct, and passionate; both hosts freely admit their biases while striving for honesty.

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Useful For

Anyone seeking insider perspectives on the intersection of American and global politics, war and peace, and the enduring questions of justice and leadership in a tumultuous world.

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Transcript

[Jamie Rubin]

This is a Global Player original podcast.

[Christiana Manpour]

Hello, everybody, and welcome to our bonus Q and A episode of the X Files with me, Christiana Manpour and Jamie Rubin. This is, as you know, where we answer your questions and we really try to get the get to the heart of the matter, what really interests you? And let's get started then this week.

[Jamie Rubin]

Foreign.

[Christiana Manpour]

I am going to ask the first question because I think it's a good one for you to answer on that side of the pond. So, Eliza, on Instagram, what are your thoughts on the no kings protest at the weekend, especially in light of Trump's grotesque video where he's wearing a crown? Why isn't there more uproar about how he sees himself as a king?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, it's a very good question. I think it came up in our discussion of Venezuela. I do think this is something that may finally move Americans. We are a democracy. It's a democracy that's under threat and strain right now because President Trump is exploiting every avenue he can to turn the presidency into an authoritarian system where he can use ICE as his, you know, his militia, where he can use the courts or ignore the courts when he wants to, where Congress has just turned itself into his lapdogs on many occasions. And so the idea of no kings, I think, is a very smart slogan. And in our country this weekend, this past weekend, there were protests all over the country in small towns and big cities. Huge numbers of people came out because this is a theme that is the cause of the American Revolution. When King George III tried to dictate taxes and other behaviors on the United States, we rebelled and revolted and created the world's first democracy. So if Americans cannot care enough about their own democracy to respond to Donald Trump's attempts to thwart that democracy through the behaviors that we've talked about, then we're going to go downhill fast. So I believe there is pushback in the courts. Increasingly, the courts are standing up to Donald Trump. I think people have to, I would put the slogan with alongside no kings is no fear. If Americans are not afraid of the Trump administration, they will behave and act and do things that will prevent Trump from succeed. So he does behave like a king. He wants to remake the White House into his own version of a royal, you know, palace with gold everywhere, the ballroom and a ballroom. And all the behaviors are the behaviors of, you know, I would call it more like a don of a mafia family than the king of an empire. But nevertheless, the idea is the same.

[Christiana Manpour]

But he's got his face on A piece of the currency. The cryptocurrency, just the king and queen motif is very frontier and center here in Europe right now. Prince Andrew, who's no longer allowed to use any of his titles. The second son of prince. Yeah. But not HRH because of his horrendous record of contact with Jeffrey Epstein, not to mention everything else about that. Really horrendous. He denies all the charges, but nonetheless, he's had contact with Jeffrey Epstein beyond what he said he had contact. And this is terrible. His victim, again, he denies it, has just published a book in United States, Virginia Giuffre, about what she says was her horrendous experience. And one has to be with the victims. But this is, you know, his own brother, the King of England, has told him to step aside. So it's a little bit sort of democracy coming to the royal family, in a way. But also, Jamie, you know, in France, somebody who we both know, Elaine Chalino, who wrote a phenomenal book about the Louvre, the great museum there, the world's biggest, has just been talking about this daring heist, these people who went in and stole the crown jewels. And even though France is not a monarchy and it's a republic and has been, you know, ever since Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, just about. It's really, you know, it's really knocked them for six there in France.

[Jamie Rubin]

All right, this is from Annie on YouTube. What's going on with Assad? It's like he's completely disappeared since he fled to Russia at the end of last year. What do you think?

[Christiana Manpour]

Well, I think he has completely disappeared. I hear various sources saying that he's trying to figure out how to, you know, get Putin to give him some kind of role. Somewhere, somehow he wants to, you know, be still somebody, but he doesn't appear to be at all. It is very worrying, though, inside Syria, you've got this new president, acting interim President Ahmad Al Shara, who's saying the right things about democracy, who's saying the right things about trying to unify the country, but who was at the helm in the last, most terrible sort of, you know, bloodletting there, which was a couple of months ago when the Druze and others went against the Alawites and there was a lot of killing. And that has raised questions about the future of Syria and the. The hold that the new president has on Syria, his ability to keep Syria from being fragmented as also Israel is continuing to act and intervene militarily there. So Assad has fled, Assad has left. Assad has been toppled, and he is sort of absent from the scene. But it's not clear at all yet what his legacy finally will be in Syria and what can be sort of recuperated and restored from his departure.

[Jamie Rubin]

I welcome this question for an unusual reason. Syria and what happened in Syria where 500,000 people were murdered and killed, men, women and children during their civil war, and most of the people that country fled their homes either to move to another part of Syria or create much of the refugee crisis in Europe that has caused so much damage to the politics of Europe, the immigration damage that was done by the Syrian war. And this brings us back to something that's very painful to talk about but is worth mentioning. Assad is back in the newspapers. The New York Times has done an enormous examination, 2, 3, 4 full pages over the last couple of days of all of the people who were responsible for the mass murder of innocent men, women and children in Syria. 500,000. And where have they gone? So it's not just Assad, but it's the hundreds of people that enabled his regime. All of them should be tracked down. All of them should face justice. But here's where the weird part comes. I have to admit that under a Democratic President, Barack Obama, the United States stood idly by and let Assad do what he did to that country without acting. Not even when President Obama threatened to use force over the issue of chemical weapons. He wouldn't carry through on the threat once Assad used chemical weapons. And that opened the door for Russia to come into Syria and I believe opened the door in Putin's mind to some of the terrible actions he's done subsequently. Now, here's the weirder part. Donald Trump, he doesn't like the idea of big wars. But when Assad used for chemical weapons, he struck the Assad regime twice. And that enabled him to protect a group of people in Idlib in northern Syria when Assad and Putin wanted to go finish the job. And they didn't do it under the threat from Trump. And it's those very people where Alshara was located with his group in Idlib who ended up overthrowing the regime. Why am I saying all this long rap? Because Trump understood the power of the United States sometimes and used it more wisely in Syria than Barack Obama did. And Trump occasionally does the right thing. And when he does, I think it it's in our interest to be truthful and lucid about it, even if it's painful.

[Christiana Manpour]

I know that you are literally fit to be tied because you raise it a lot about this red line. And certainly many around the world, probably the Russians, certainly in the Middle east, viewed it as a demonstration of American unwillingness to follow through. An American pulling back. However, I would point you to a very interesting chapter in the former Secretary General of NATO. Jens Stoltenberg's new biography is called On My Watch. And he specifically talks about having conversations with Obama about that moment and that he lays it out, how Obama really did believe that force was right to be used then. And then it all collapsed when they decided to go to Congress for it.

[Jamie Rubin]

No, he didn't. That's just Stoltenberg's just wrong. He did probably hear that from Obama. But Obama made this decision all by himself. He had made the threat. He could have acted. He chose to go to Congress specifically because he knew that Congress would support him. The rest of his team, John Kerry, Susan Rice, Leon Panetta, all the team who were part of the Syrian the Obama administration recommended against going to Congress. Obama did exactly what he knew would happen, which is Congress didn't support it and he was afraid of another.

[Christiana Manpour]

The chief of staff urged him to go to Congress.

[Jamie Rubin]

That's right. Only Denis McConnell didn't, and then the British didn't tell him what would happen if he didn't follow through, what the effect would be because he was a junior league person who had never lived in the real world. He didn't understand the danger. Denis McDonough and that advice. When you're a chief of staff, you're supposed to give your boss the hard news, not the easy news. Obama wanted to hear that he could avoid using force. McDonough was supposed to say to him, Look, Mr. President, I understand why you don't want to do this, and I appreciate that. But here are the facts. If you don't do it, here are the consequences. In Asia, in the Middle east, in Europe, for all the leaders who rely upon the United States acting upon its commitments. Here are the downsides. If you don't do it. And the truth was, it wasn't going to be a big deal. It was going to be a small cruise missile attack on Assad's military facilities. Trump did it twice. It wasn't a big deal or a terrible deal. It didn't matter that much. What mattered was not doing it.

[Christiana Manpour]

The thing is, I will say one thing, and I'm not an American, I'm just playing devil's advocate. But we need to move on. Frankly, that when Trump does stuff without Congress, everybody freaks out, you know, so there is that part of it too.

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[Jamie Rubin]

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[Christiana Manpour]

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[Christiana Manpour]

Karen, on email, can you please explain why so many people believe Trump will deserve the Nobel Peace Prize if the ceasefire is successful? If he does win, will this not validate all of the cruelty and suffering he's imposed on his own people?

[Jamie Rubin]

Wow. This is a good question. Look, I know we spoke in our last episode about Trump and the Peace Prize and I did. I don't read all the comments all the time, but I did flip through them and I saw a lot of outrage at the idea that Donald Trump should ever get a Nobel Peace Prize. And I understand it. He's done untold damage to my country. I didn't vote for him. I want him to be out of office as soon as his term ends. I want the Republicans to be defeated at the polls. When I look at the world and I say, what would make the world a better place? One of the things that would make the world a better place is if Donald Trump took on seriously the job in Gaza, for example, and followed through on the peace agreement that he got. And followed through by empowering Tony Blair so that this ceasefire agreement doesn't collapse. By creating an international force, by creating a governing systems for Gaza, and by working towards a two state solution that will require enormous amounts of work from Donald Trump and his team. And if getting the Nobel Prize is the motivation for him doing that, fine. The idea of the Nobel Prize being so important is absurd. The goal should be to do the right thing, not because you're going to get a prize. And if this motivates Trump, fine with me. I ain't going to wear no MAGA hat. But I'm happy to accept that they give him a prize. If he does the hard work of keeping the peace in Gaza moving forward in allowing for a two state solution. That's something he hasn't been prepared to do. That's why the ceasefire is collapsing.

[Christiana Manpour]

That's the real horrible fact of it. And it really upsets me about Trump. And I saw it when I covered his summits with Kim Jong Un. And I heard it from the South Korean foreign minister that what could have been a success with a proper set of agreements between the two countries didn't, because Trump didn't follow up, said the former South Korean foreign minister to me. And now I am just horrified that within a week, literally a week of Trump being in Israel and addressing the Knesset and the ceasefire and the release of the living hostages, et cetera, et cetera, and the Palestinian prisoners, this thing appears to be crumbling. Let us hope that it does not. But it just goes to show how much sustained, focused attention the United States needs to keep on this prize.

[Jamie Rubin]

All right, you ready for this one?

[Christiana Manpour]

I'm ready.

[Jamie Rubin]

Donna ON EMAIL Would it ever be possible to try Trump at the ICC if the USA became a member?

[Christiana Manpour]

Well, everything theoretically is possible, and other world leaders have been tried. The likelihood of the US Becoming a member is precisely zero because of the reason that they don't want their leaders or their military ever indicted. And, you know, you'd have to have a real hard case. You'd have to have facts, you'd have a case. You'd have to have sort of a line of command, a command authority, to even bring some kind of indictment. And right now, I can't really see it ever happening.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, let me just make a couple comments on that. Number one, International Criminal Court is a sound idea. It was pushed, I believe, during originally the Clinton administration. We signed the original legislation for that, but then over time, the US Pulled out precisely for the reasons you mentioned. But what I want to say about it is International Criminal Court is valuable when a domestic legal system isn't doing its job.

[Christiana Manpour]

That's right. That's what it's for.

[Jamie Rubin]

That's exactly what it's for. Right now, our domestic legal system, I believe, is trying desperately to do its job. It's very difficult. It's very hard. The Court of Appeals keeps getting appealed from particular judges. That goes to the Supreme Court. And this whole system is slow and painful, and it takes a long time, but the system is working. What I worry about with the ICC is what happens when international law, lawyers and international justice goes astray. And that happens. I saw it in the case of the tribunal that was created for Kosovo. One of the original experts on Kosovo recently wrote a very powerful article in a newspaper about his visit to the Kosovo Tribunal, where He met with Mr. Thatchi. And he had been part of this process for 25 years, and he realized that that tribunal was supposed to be looking at one charge which was this ridiculous charge that the KLA had been involved in organ trafficking. And they couldn't prove that. And so they did what was not envisaged by the original legislation and they found other things to prosecute. And the reason I bring this up is because that tribunal has failed the cause of international justice. The purpose of international justice is to get accountability for the people who actually did crimes so that a group is not blamed for the crime, assigning individual responsibility and eliminating collective guilt. And instead of doing that, this tribunal is blaming the Kosovar Albanians as a group, essentially the KLA as a group. It's a terrible assault on the principle of international justice. And so what I bring this up because the international justice system has to be conducted by people who understand its proper role and don't see their own careers being advanced by prosecuting someone who doesn't deserve to be prosecuted. But it's good for their career.

[Christiana Manpour]

And I made that point many, and.

[Jamie Rubin]

I want to make it again. And you probably make it again, suffering.

[Christiana Manpour]

And I feel bad for Hashim Thatchi and. Yeah, but I will also say, because I've covered them, whether it's Bosnia, whether it's Rwanda, whatever it might be, the war crimes tribunals, as said work, have done incredible work that leads to reconciliation through justice and eventually, hopefully lasting peace. And I really also disdain when it goes rogue. You, in fact, me, I'm going to ask the next question because it's for you. Kirsty on Instagram. Jamie, do you think you're starting to Pavlov your own self into developing a cramp whenever the Middle east is discussed? You know, I was wondering that too.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, it's a good question. Two times in a row, I think maybe even three times it happened today. I have no cramps, thank God. Today we haven't focused on the Middle East. But I think the, the funny thing is, you know, I am 65 and you know, as you get older, your body changes. I've been taking glucosamine, which is this medicine that's good for aging muscles. And glucosamine has made a big difference. I don't have a cramp today when I exercise properly and stretch properly.

[Christiana Manpour]

Yeah, you should exercise more and stretch more.

[Jamie Rubin]

I do. I don't get a cramp. But I still think the Middle east is enough to drive anybody to distraction.

[Christiana Manpour]

I do too.

[Jamie Rubin]

As we've seen that without constant, permanent top down leadership from the United States, this war is not going to end and the conflict in Gaza is not going to stop. And the people of that region are not going to get the phrase I love from President Clinton, quote, the quiet miracle of a normal life. That can only happen if the United States and world leaders together do the hard work of pursuing peace in the Middle east by bringing together right people. And it doesn't matter who does the bringing together. What matters is that the job gets done right. And we have to be big enough to understand that sometimes people we object to politically, like Donald Trump or even Tony Blair. For many of the listeners, you may not like these people, and in some cases I don't like these people. But if they're in power and they get the job done, we have to have the lucidity to acknowledge that they're helping rather than hurting.

[Christiana Manpour]

The quiet miracle of a normal life. I think I've internalized that so many times from you, Jamie, that I now know it off by heart as probably many of our listeners. And it's a good line from President Clinton. And on that note, bye bye. Thanks for listening to the Q and A bonus episode of the X Files with me and with Jamie. If you have a question for us that you want us to answer next time, you can find us on all the major social media platforms. Our handle is Manpurpod. Or you can email us. We are amanpodlobal.com Our next episode is out on Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcast, remember you can listen and watch for free on Global Player. And Also we're on YouTube. Just search Christiana Monpour presents and subscribe to our channel so that you never miss an episode. Bye bye Jamie. See you next time.

[Jamie Rubin]

Bye again from New York. Goodbye.

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[Christiana Manpour]

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