← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
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- [00:03]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:08]
Jamie Rubin
Hello everybody. This is the bonus episode of Christiana Monpour Presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And this is where we get to answer your questions. And we're so grateful that you've sent in quite a lot. So I'm Christiane.
- [00:22]
Christiane Amanpour
And I'm Jamie Rubin and we're ready to take your questions.
- [00:25]
Jamie Rubin
If you want to ask us a question about anything that we've seen or experienced, something we've talked about in the podcast or other world events, you can ask us on social media. We are on all the major platforms. Amanpourpod or you can email us amanpur pod.com.
- [00:45]
Christiane Amanpour
Alyssa on Instagram asks this do you think the press can have an impact on elections? Does the media influence voting habits?
- [00:55]
Jamie Rubin
The short answer is yes. I think what we choose to focus on, what stories we choose to tell, what aspects of an election we consider important. And when I say we, I, I really mean and this is a code beltway journalists, because the people certainly in America and here in, in, in the UK who are the political reporters who are given the elections to run with, have a very different view of what it means to cover an election than those of us in the field. And I consider myself those of us in the field. So whether it's in the US Whether it's the uk, whether it's Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, wherever, you, I think that you can really tell stories in a way that does influence people and therefore you have to be super careful not to fall into a herd mentality, not to sort of dominate on the horse race, so to speak. I think so many journalists and media organizations get so caught up in the horse race, the latest polls, they forget about the actual story about how policies are affecting individual human beings, no matter where they may be, as you Jamie mentioned, whether they're on the coasts of America, on the, you know, in the heartland, or whether they're in, as I said, some of these other countries and emerging democracies. So I think we have to be super careful to make sure that, I guess what America views as election coverage is bolstered by real life stories of real life people experiencing and dealing with real life policy and their real life daily issues. What works for them, what doesn't work for them. You can't do it without that because otherwise it's pretty unbalanced. And I think you can draw a false picture if you only look at polls and only look at stats and only look at press conferences.
- [02:51]
Christiane Amanpour
And you know, one of the things I'm worried about When I look at the way media and politics are, you know, interacting these days, I remember living when we were married in the UK and listening to the BBC, and I always liked this idea that the journalists of the BBC thought their job was to present facts. And then they would bring on the two parties, the Labor Party and the Conservative Party, and those two parties would debate the facts, but they wouldn't debate what the facts are and what's happened. Unfortunately, as a result of the explosion of, you know, basically the communications revolutions, that that has allowed the media to be developed into little pieces. And not having nine or 10 major entities be the media, but having thousands of different entities as the media, we tend to put ourselves in our own bubbles. And the one party listens to one set of media and another party listens to another set of media. I prefer, and I think Thomas Jefferson said this about why the freedom of the press was so important, was because an informed public is the best way to ensure that you have a democratic. Democratic policies that are reflected of the facts. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan used to say, you know, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Well, nowadays, everyone thinks they're entitled to their own facts, and that's a real problem.
- [04:20]
Jamie Rubin
Can I just add, our son sent me a. I don't know whether it's an Instagram. Whatever. He sent it to me. And it's, you know, it's a trope. It says if someone says it's raining and another person says it's dry, it's not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out of the expletive window. In other words, my mantra, whether it's elections or gross violations of international humanitarian law, you have to be truthful, not neutral. That's what I think. Denise on Instagram asks, and this is a good one for you, is America in exile right now?
- [05:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, you know, there's always been two Americas, two versions of America. Think back to our early history where we had a slaveholding south and an abolitionist north that was built into America. We've also had the phenomenon of, you know, the America of the coasts versus the America of the interior. Now, these things aren't hard and fast, but they are aspects of America's, you know, complicated personality. The America that Bruce Springsteen has been talking about, the America that I love and the America that I've worked much of my life for, is not quite the same as the America being presented by the Trump administration. That's just a statement of Fact. And I think those countries around the world that have seen the United States as a leader in promoting human rights, in promoting democratic change, in promoting and saving the victims of oppression and aggression, like the Kosovars, that we helped prevent their mass murder in the 90s, the America that helped Ukrainians survive the Russian onslaught when they faced being wiped out, that America is in exile right now because the Republican Party has chosen a different version of America, and the Americans have voted for it in the House, in the Senate, and in the presidency. So certainly the Democratic Party's approach to America is in exile. I hope it'll be back. We'll soon see, in 18 months.
- [06:32]
Jamie Rubin
And I think this is a struggle for two halves of America, as you just laid them out. Next question. George on Instagram asked do you think it's possible that Trump will destroy democracy.
- [06:43]
Christiane Amanpour
In the U.S. no, I don't think that's going to happen. Is it possible? Yeah, anything's possible, but I don't think it's going to happen. I think that democracy in the United States is on its back foot. Some of the rules of law that has guided us through the courts making decisions that prevent a president from just throwing out people from jobs in certain institutions. The power of the presidency under Trump has been expanded. Look, all of these guardrails are being challenged by this administration. The president regards himself as being given the right to expand the power of the presidency to its maximum degree. But there is going to be an election in 18 months, and I think that it will be free and it will be fair. It may be not as free and fair as it used to be because of the factor that I described about the media and an inability to agree on a set of facts. But it will be free and fair in terms of people having the right to vote and knowing their votes weren't going to send them to prison or cause a backlash. And then we'll see how resilient our democracy is. I used to be someone who believed, as you know, in the United States as the indispensable nation, something Madeleine Albright said a lot. And I did believe, and still, to a degree believe, that without America leading, things don't get resolved in the world and the world becomes a worse place.
- [08:08]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah. You know, you used to get really hot under the collar, hot and bothered, Jamie, when anybody challenged that belief of yours. But you're now kind of giving voice to it yourself that, yeah, I mean, the preeminence and the exceptionalism and the indispensable nature, et cetera, are in question.
- [08:25]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, I agree with that. Let me ask you a question. This is for both of us. How do we, you two, us, keep the stories the public might consider boring on the agenda if they're important, but in less obvious ways? Adam asked that by email.
- [08:40]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, I mean, I think we can both talk about this from a press point of view. You know, one person's boring is another person's fascinating. And I just think that it's a very good question because TV particularly is, is designed to go for the sort of the shiny moment, the shiny object, the next shiny thing, the shiniest interview, the shiniest daring investigative discovery and breakthrough, the scoop. So that's where people generally gravitate. But sometimes there are all these side stories that tell the most incredible news that are absolutely vital. But you wouldn't think it, for instance, I'm literally just pulling it out of my head right now. Don't even have it in front of me. But, but there was an incredible story in the newspaper a few days ago about a little known fact, at least to me. And I know Bosnia. There is a quite a significant arms factory in a town called Gorazde in Bosnia in the Balkans. Now Goraj Day was one of those towns that was besieged by the Serbs. And it was a safe area, supposedly it was a safe area deemed by the UN but it was at threat and at one point overrun by the Serbs. And who knew that these people were busy making ammunition, making certain weapons, sending many of them, selling them to the United States and elsewhere. And of course the story now is written because of the tariffs and how it's going to affect this little ammunition factory that actually punches above its weight. And that story might sound boring and incidental and like, I don't know, the local city hall meeting, but in fact it tells the whole bigger story about how these edicts from, let's say, Washington or wherever they come from to say that we're now going to make it more expensive for you to sell in the US or anywhere else. How that affects the US how it affects this little town, how it affects this post war society that has propped up. And I just think that's such a great example about an item that may be considered trivial, boring, but in fact says a lot, even things. Jamie, you know, I remember when you were working on infrastructure in New York. I mean bridges may be boring, airports may be boring, infrastructure may be boring. But there are so many ways that you can tell these stories in a human way, how it affects everyday mom, pop, and their children and their grandparents and this and that, because that's what it's all about in the end. How it affects the people who build them, how it affects the people who use them. And, and I mean, you can go all the way from the pyramids. Look, I'm just making a story now from the pyramids to building a new bridge in, you know, in Baltimore. And I find them fascinating. Nothing's boring, it's the way you tell them.
- [11:38]
Christiane Amanpour
I agree with that. I remember when we were married and the beginning of the end of, of a certain kind of foreign reporting was being pushed by certain leaders of the media organizations because it wasn't cost effective. They thought it too much money to spend, send reporters and producers and supporters and equipment into these war zones and that the public was tiring of them. And I remember thinking at that time that number one, I believe that the major media have a responsibility to tell the stories that exist around the world. And it's the job of good reporters like yourself to make those stories compelling. Even if the public doesn't naturally want to say to a questionnaire that's what they want to learn about. The idea is to make them interested and compelled by something they hadn't thought of. But just giving up on it because it's not financially good for the bottom line is a shame because I think the media has a responsibility above and beyond its bottom line.
- [12:38]
Jamie Rubin
No argument from me. No argument for me. You know, I've been battling, and many of my colleagues have for years because let's say in the United States, you know, oh, who cares about foreign news? And honestly, I've been battling that for my whole career. But clearly foreign news is also domestic news, depending on where it is, what it is, and et cetera. So, you know, I do believe that a strong press means a strong civil society. An informed civil society is a strong and healthy civil society and therefore a strong and healthy democracy. So I've always lived by that motto.
- [13:21]
C
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- [14:26]
Jamie Rubin
Right, Jamie, my turn to ask you, because I don't think this applies to me this one, but I think it might apply to you. I don't know. Have you ever had to communicate or support a message that you don't agree with as part of your roles? How did you handle this?
- [14:42]
Christiane Amanpour
I served on and off, depending on the day, as a spokesman for the United States government through the first term when I was Madeleine Albright's spokesman at the U.N. and as the official U.S. spokesman at the State Department for the second term. And yeah, I didn't agree with every single thing the United States does now. I had my own way of approaching those jobs, and I either did it well or not. And the journalists and the people listening have to judge that. But one of the tricks that I used when I didn't agree with something and ultimately, obviously, if, if it's such a profound disagreement, you have to resign. That's what Bridget Brink did because she was ambassador in Ukraine and couldn't do her job anymore because she didn't believe in what she was being asked to do in blaming the victim in Ukraine. So there were times when I felt disagreement. So my trick was because I was very close advisor to Madeleine Albright, people knew I knew what she said and what she thought and what her real views were. So I didn't often use the briefing book that was given to the spokesman when I was answering a question. I could just answer the question because I knew what she thought. If I found myself in a situation where it was a question that I really hated, the answer, what I would do is ostentatiously bring up my book and carefully read it from the book word for word to show that I was reading an answer that had been prepared by somebody else and that was my little sort of protest, was rather than communicating effectively and making a persuasive case for some policy, if I didn't like it or I couldn't agree with it, I just ostentatiously read it. I think the job of a spokesman is to never lie, and I never did, certainly not on purpose. I may have been wrong in the sense that we were wrong, the government, the information I got was wrong. That's not lying. That's called a mistake. But I knew that there were some areas that were out of bounds.
- [16:45]
Jamie Rubin
So you've set me up over and over again for a question that I'm not sure that you expect from me at this point. But just to answer this person, I've never had to do that. Once I was forced to say something on air because of something I'd said before, and I actually said it under duress. And I as, as what I did was repeat exactly what I'd said before and then say, but maybe I shouldn't have said that. Bye. Thanks. So I made myself clear as well. And maybe one day we can expand on that. But Jamie, do you want to tell a story about how once you made, I don't know, was it a mistake? You got carrot and stick someone in and out of order.
- [17:26]
Christiane Amanpour
So, yes, one time I was on a plane. It was in the middle of one of the many crises in Iraq where Saddam Hussein was refusing to let the inspectors into certain buildings. And we were threatening to use force. And meanwhile, diplomacy was going on. And meanwhile, we also had a program to feed and provide medicine for innocent Iraqis. We were trying to do all three things, threaten force, try to resolve the inspection by diplomacy, and provide food and medicine to the innocent Iraqis using Iraqi oil money. They were asking whether the oil for food program was a, was an incentive, was a gift to Saddam Hussein. And I think I said something like, I've never seen the transcript, like, well, that may be a little carrot for Saddam, but we have two big sticks floating in the Persian Gulf, which was a reference to two aircraft carrier battle groups. And I shouldn't have said the little carrot because the truth was that the oil for food program wasn't a carrot for Saddam. It was a way to keep sanctions on by taking away the argument that we were causing the starvation of Iraqi children. But I said it wrong. And a reporter just quoted the little carrot part. And President Clinton was furious and I made a mistake. And then for the rest of my time in government, people would use the carrots as a way to tease me. And when I left, left on the last day, in fact, you were in the room, in the back of the room as a journalist. Joe Lockhart, this president spokesman, offered me a parting gift as a bag of little carrots.
- [19:00]
Jamie Rubin
That's funny. But you also remember since I was there and you were partying and our son had just Been born What they gave you as well? A rubber ducky? You don't know because you never bath Darius, for crying out loud. You didn't know. You don't remember the rubber ducky?
- [19:18]
Christiane Amanpour
I don't remember the rubber duckies. I remember juggling the rubber duckies or something like that.
- [19:22]
Jamie Rubin
Anyway, now, you must have asked him once or twice.
- [19:25]
Christiane Amanpour
That's a good lead into an email from Julia. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the fairy tale side of your relationship, and I bet others are curious as well. How did you meet and when did you first know you'd like to embark on this relationship? I'm going to let you start that one.
- [19:42]
Jamie Rubin
Well, listen, I am going to reach way into the future and way into the past and drag that fairy tale out of the back of my head. No, just joking. Let's see. Do I remember it? No. Yes, I do. Well, Julia and anybody else. It was a fairytale relationship, and it was one that came together over one of the kind of the most important issues of our time at that time, and that was the genocide being committed in Bosnia. And the world wasn't doing anything about it. But Jamie was kind of on the right side. And I think you wrote some memo that was very important for the US Government, but Madeleine Albright was on the right side as well, Jamie's boss. So all to say was I didn't hate them as much as I hated the rest of the administration. So when I first met Jamie, you know, he was handsome and he liked me and it was fun. And he was in the UN Security Council, and he brought his boss to meet me, who doesn't like meeting the Secretary of State when you're a frontline journalist. So I was thrilled with that. And then we actually got together over a spilt bag or bowl of popcorn on Madeleine Albright's plane as she was flying around the Balkans trying to get these crazy genocidal leaders to be handed over to the International Criminal Tribunal for war crimes. And. And we drank a lot of margaritas and we lost our credit cards or we didn't have them. So I think we ran out of there without paying in one of the hotels in Croatia. And then we didn't really see each other much. We did a lot of long distance dating, then we got engaged. Then we were about to get married, and Osama bin Laden BMW up the US embassies in East Africa, which was a real terrible thing. He did. But we did get married, and then we had a son and we had a Wonderful life. And. And it ended in divorce. What can I tell you? And we all lived happily ever after.
- [21:45]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, as far as the fairy tale part is concerned, the way I remember those days was that we had a meeting of the minds on substance, Bosnia. Obviously, we were attracted to each other. I remember finding it appealing that you were so bold in the way you approached your job. I may have told this story before, but I think one day, I remember on that trip, I was standing next to Madeleine Albright, and you were in the audience yelling questions.
- [22:20]
Jamie Rubin
I was with the press.
- [22:21]
Christiane Amanpour
That's what I mean.
- [22:22]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah.
- [22:22]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, that is the audience. The meeting was between the president of the Bosnian Serbs named Mrs. Plavzich and Madeleine Albright, these two ladies. And I was on the, you know, next to Madeleine. And you were corralled in the sort of press area. And then you started shouting questions. And as I recall it, the Serbia bodyguards, or whatever you call them, security people, didn't like that you were interfering with the smooth functioning of a meeting and started removing you from the room. And I remember seeing you parallel to the ground, still shouting your question, and Madeleine Albright looking over at me and winking because she had known that we had started to go out at least, or were intrigued by each other at that point.
- [23:07]
Jamie Rubin
It's true. I was bodily removed. And I guess the last question. Has there ever been an interview or event that you wish had gone differently? Well, I'm going to say an interview. I wish. There's some interviews with this that spring to mind, which, when I look back in the past, and I wasn't a great interviewer when I started, I was a good enough reporter, but I wasn't up to par for world leaders and things until a lot later. But somehow, sometimes I was thrust in front of a world leader. And sometimes when I look back at those transcripts or the tapes, I think, oh, my God, aren't you just embarrassed? How lightweight are you? But I do remember asking Slobodan Miloevich, who was essentially the genocidal leader of the Greater Serbia Project that, you know, assaulted all the Balkans and especially Bosnia. I asked him, I thought this was such a good question. How can you sleep at night? And he looked back at me and he said, who can sleep at night? And that was the end of that. Thanks for listening to the bonus episode of Christiane Amanpour Presents the X Files with my ex, Jamie Rubin. Thanks for all the questions. Remember, if you ever want to ask us anything, you can reach us with your questions on social media. We're on all the major platforms. ManPourPod or you can email amanpourpodlock. And remember that our next episode will come out on Tuesday and you can see that and listen on Global Player and you can download it from the App Store or go to global player.com.
- [24:54]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [24:57]
C
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