Q&A: Would the US ever stop arming Israel?

Summary

Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files

Episode: Q&A: Would the US Ever Stop Arming Israel
Release Date: May 21, 2025

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Introduction to the Q&A Session

In this bonus episode of Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files, renowned journalist Christiane Amanpour and her ex-husband, former US State Department official Jamie Rubin, engage directly with their audience by answering a series of pressing questions. This interactive format allows listeners to gain deeper insights into current global crises and the dynamics shaping international relations.

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US-Arming Israel: An Unbreakable Alliance?

Timestamp: [01:27]

Question: Carl on X asks, "Why will the US never stop arming Israel, however serious the accusations against them?"

Discussion: Jamie Rubin emphasizes the longstanding alliance between the United States and Israel, highlighting the commitment to ensuring Israel's defense capabilities. Despite recent aggressive actions by Israel, Rubin underscores the political dimensions of this support, noting the strong backing from the Republican Party.

Notable Quote:

"The entire Republican Party is fully supportive of the most extreme version of the [US-Israel] alliance."
— Jamie Rubin [02:18]

Rubin also reminisces about the Clinton era, where diplomatic efforts like the Camp David Accords showcased America's ability to influence Israeli policies. However, he contrasts this with current dynamics, suggesting that the US now has limited leverage over Israel's decisions.

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The Future of a Palestinian State

Timestamp: [05:59]

Question: Bailey on Instagram asks, "Do you think the Palestinians will ever have their own recognized state?"

Discussion: Christiane Amanpour expresses optimism, stating that a recognized Palestinian state is essential for lasting peace. She links this possibility to broader diplomatic efforts, such as the Abraham Accords, and underscores the conditional support from nations like Saudi Arabia.

Notable Quote:

"If Israel is ever to have peace and Palestinians are ever to have peace and dignity and sovereignty, then there will be a Palestinian state."
— Christiane Amanpour [06:00]

Jamie Rubin agrees, emphasizing that the only viable solutions are a two-state or one-state arrangement, though he notes Israel's reluctance toward the latter.

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Should Trump Receive a Nobel Peace Prize?

Timestamp: [08:55]

Question: Holden on X asks, "Should Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize if he helps bring peace to the Middle East or Ukraine?"

Discussion: Jamie Rubin humorously addresses Trump's frequent mentions of the Nobel Peace Prize, suggesting that Trump's potential contributions toward negotiating peace with Iran could make him a candidate. However, he remains skeptical about Trump's ability to facilitate such a deal, referencing Trump's earlier withdrawal from the Obama-era Iran deal.

Notable Quote:

"If he makes that deal and eliminates the risk of a nuclear Iran or an attack on Iran by Israel or the United States, let him win the Nobel Peace Prize."
— Jamie Rubin [09:47]

Christiane Amanpour tentatively agrees but remains doubtful about its feasibility.

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Maintaining Composure Amidst Conflict

Timestamp: [10:57]

Question: Jet on TikTok asks Christiane, "How do you maintain your composure after witnessing so many wars firsthand?"

Discussion: Christiane Amanpour shares the emotional toll of reporting from conflict zones, especially with personal experiences such as her son Darius witnessing these events. She emphasizes the necessity of telling these stories to highlight the suffering and advocate for change.

Notable Quote:

"The only way I maintain my composure is I know I need to tell the stories, I know I need to get the interviews."
— Christiane Amanpour [12:51]

Jamie Rubin echoes the sentiment, acknowledging the profound impact these experiences have on their personal lives.

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Understanding US Cabinet Appointments

Timestamp: [12:44]

Question: Danny on YouTube asks Jamie, "Can the president just appoint whoever they like?"

Discussion: Jamie Rubin explains the US system of cabinet appointments, highlighting the role of the Senate's "advice and consent." He criticizes the Trump administration's approach, noting that recent appointments often bypass rigorous scrutiny, allowing less qualified individuals to secure positions through sheer Senate majority support.

Notable Quote:

"As long as 51 members of the Senate support the president, yeah, he can pick pretty much whoever he wants."
— Jamie Rubin [13:47]

Christiane adds that political pressures prevent meaningful opposition within the Republican Party, citing fears of backlash from the MAGA base.

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Balancing High-Pressure Careers and Personal Relationships

Timestamp: [17:25]

Question: Rachel on Instagram asks, "Was it difficult to balance your high-pressure careers and relationship?"

Discussion: Both Christiane and Jamie acknowledge the challenges of maintaining a relationship amidst demanding careers and global crises. They attribute their ability to navigate these challenges to prioritizing their son and supporting each other despite their eventual divorce.

Notable Quote:

"We made our son our priority. There's no doubt about it."
— Christiane Amanpour [18:21]

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Advice for Parents on Navigating Uncertainty

Timestamp: [19:06]

Question: Suzanne on X asks, "As parents, what advice would you give other parents when navigating the increasing uncertainty regarding a safe and peaceful future?"

Discussion: Jamie Rubin expresses concern about the rapidly changing global landscape, emphasizing threats from authoritarian regimes like Russia and China. He advocates for a strong, unified Europe as a counterbalance to these powers. Christiane Amanpour underscores the importance of political engagement and maintaining optimism amidst challenges.

Notable Quote:

"The rule breakers are the rule makers."
— Christiane Amanpour [21:08]

Jamie adds that Europe's unity is crucial in addressing collective threats and supporting allies like Ukraine.

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The Situation in Bosnia Herzegovina

Timestamp: [22:23]

Question: Maya on Instagram asks, "What do you make of the current situation in Bosnia Herzegovina?"

Discussion: Christiane Amanpour and Jamie Rubin draw parallels between the historical conflicts in Bosnia and recent aggressive actions in Ukraine. They highlight the resurgence of nationalist movements influenced by external powers like Russia and Serbia. Despite current tensions, Jamie remains cautiously optimistic due to significant grassroots opposition against corruption and nationalism within Serbia.

Notable Quote:

"They are demonstrating against corruption in Serbia, and it's a very important moment."
— Christiane Amanpour [23:47]

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The Call for a Stronger, More Unified Europe

Timestamp: [24:33]

Question: Leah on Instagram asks, "Is this the time for a stronger and more unified Europe?"

Discussion: Jamie Rubin strongly advocates for a more unified Europe, especially in light of threats from Russia and China. He praises Europe's current stance in supporting Ukraine and strengthening NATO, viewing it as a necessary response to prevent further geopolitical destabilization.

Notable Quote:

"A strong and united Europe is a first step towards recognizing [the threats]."
— Jamie Rubin [24:48]

Christiane Amanpour agrees, emphasizing Europe's collective strength and the importance of political and cultural unity.

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Conclusion

In this engaging Q&A session, Christiane Amanpour and Jamie Rubin provide nuanced perspectives on some of the most pressing international issues of our time. From the complexities of US-Israel relations to the future of the Middle East peace process, their insights offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of the geopolitical landscape. Personal reflections on maintaining composure in conflict zones and balancing high-pressure careers add depth to their professional analyses, making this episode a valuable resource for those seeking to comprehend the intricacies of global affairs.

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For more insights and to engage with Christiane and Jamie, listeners are encouraged to follow them on social media under the handle @AmanpourPod and submit their questions via email at amanpourpodlobal.com.

Transcript

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[Jamie Rubin]

This is a global Player original podcast. My EarPods are working. My microphone is working. My camera is working.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Good.

[Jamie Rubin]

My background will be clear in five minutes. Nobody will make noise. I'm in Long island, so I had to turn. Tell all the construction people to be quiet.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Shush. We might talk about it.

[Jamie Rubin]

Okay, okay. I'm turning my phone off.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, fine.

[Jamie Rubin]

I've got my scripts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay. Hello, everybody. This is the bonus episode of Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And this is where we get to answer your questions. And we're so grateful that you've sent in quite a lot.

[Jamie Rubin]

So.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I'm Christiane.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, and we're ready to take your questions.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Remember, if you want to ask us a question about anything that we've seen or experienced, something we've talked about in the podcast or other world events, you can ask us on social media. We are on all the major platforms at Amanpur Pod. Or you can email us amanpourpodlobal.com so we've got a bunch on the Middle east, and there's a lot going on there right now with this huge new quote, Operation Gideon's Chariots. Really big, big, big new Israeli offensive. And it's causing a huge amount of anxiety around the world now, much more than Israel's previous offensives into. Into Gaza. So Carl on X has asked us, jamie, why will the US Never stop arming Israel, however serious the accusations against them? And I'm gonna let you take that one.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, I'll bet. Look, Israel and the United States have had a friendship and an alliance. The United States is committed to making sure they have what they need to defend themselves. And as bad as Israel has behaved in this recent war, and they have, in certain circumstances, gone beyond what they should have done. Clearly, we have to remember they were attacked on October 7, and they were attacked from the south by the Hamas, and they were attacked from the north by Hezbollah. And this whole operation has response to those attacks. Yes, there are questions over whether they should have all the weapons that they have. And there'll always be debate about that. But frankly, it's a political thing. The entire Republican Party is fully supportive of the most extreme version of the.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I can hear a phone ringing.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, it's this phone. Landline. Nobody uses landlines anymore. Except for you, apparently. I gotta remember to take that off next time. Anyway, so the Democratic Party is having debate about this, and there are some in our party who have raised serious questions about whether we should continue to fully provide Israel all the weapons they want. And we don't always provide them everything they want. But broadly speaking, I don't see an American government not providing Israel defense equipment. And remember, that's not going to change anything because Israel has its own defense industry. But what can the United States do? That's the real question. What is our leverage? And the time I saw America exertion, real leverage was in the Clinton years, when President Clinton and Bibi Netanyahu and Yasser Arafat made a peace agreement at Y River and the Israelis were supposed to give up a portion of their land to the Palestinians. And Netanyahu changed his mind and decided not to do so. And then there was a political campaign. And during that campaign, I was authorized by President Clinton and Madeleine Albright and as were our ambassador in the region, Martin Endyk, to disagree from fundamentally with the Israeli government on a matter of the highest priority. And we respectfully disagreed what was best for the state of Israel and what our views were. And we put those views down very, very hard. And I became extremely unpopular with the Netanyahu government and Madeleine Albright as obviously even more so.

[Christiane Amanpour]

She was Secretary of State in your book.

[Jamie Rubin]

Correct. And President Clinton, this is the key. He was respected and trusted by not just the Palestinians, we talked about that in the last episode, but by Israelis who knew that he had their back. They knew that he trusted the Israeli people and he wanted them to make the right decision. And the fact that an American president can influence the Israeli public is the unique factor. And when that is exercised properly can really have an effect. And Netanyahu lost the election and he lost to Ehud Barak. And think about it. In 1999, he lost to Ehud Barak. And then in 2000, Ehud Barak offered the most comprehensive peace offering the Israelis ever made. To share Jerusalem, to return effectively the whole west bank in Gaza to find a solution to the refugees. That was called the Clinton parameters. And Camp David. And Ehud Barak said yes, Yasser Arafat said no.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Arafat was the head of the Palestinians at the time.

[Jamie Rubin]

And then it all went south from there. And then Israel's government becomes increasingly anti peace process and in fact, the peace processors in Israel are discredited by what happened at Camp David and afterwards.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So the next question, and it's kind of a follow up, is Bailey on Instagram, who asked, do you think the Palestinians will ever have their own recognized state? So I'm going to take a stab at this.

[Jamie Rubin]

Please do.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I'm going to say yes. And I'm going to say because it's the only way out and it's the only parameters that have been drawn politically that both the Palestinians, those that are the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people, who recognize Israel, who've been the partner for peace hitherto, and the Israelis and the whole UN system and the Americans, the Arab world and everybody else, the whole Arab world. And even now we know that for instance, any attempt to complete the so called Abraham Accords, to get Saudi Arabia to recognize Israel and vice versa, et cetera, and you know, enter some kind of diplomatic situation with them, Saudi is saying, no, we can't do that until you show us you're going to get out of Gaza and that there is going to be a Palestinian state. So right now it looks incredibly unlikely. We do not know whether these Palestinians in Gaza are going to be pushed out. I mean, it's a very bad situation happening there right now. And we don't know what President Trump is going to do. We don't know what he thinks about a Palestinian state. He said all sorts of things about Gaza, but we're not sure whether he will follow through on, for instance.

[Jamie Rubin]

All right, let me, let me redevelop.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hold on, don't interrupt. Redeveloping it as the, as the Riviera of the Middle East. But I believe that if Israel is ever to have peace and Palestinians are ever to have peace and dignity and sovereignty, then there will be Palestinian state I agree with or a one state solution. And Israel does not want that.

[Jamie Rubin]

So it is the only solution. And I think you're exactly right. The link in making the link to Saudi Arabia. And I can say that in those last months before the election, that was the deal we were offering the Israeli Israelis. We were saying to them, we can get you Saudi normalization of relations. We can get you the recognition by the maintainer of the holy sites, the Saudi Arabian, the two holy mosques, Medina, two holy mosques. But in exchange for that to the Israelis, they were going to have to get out of Gaza and figure out how to Deploy an international force and let the United States declare that this new Gaza forces form that we were going to take was going to be the first step towards a Palestinian state. That was our idea of the political horizon people said they needed. And I think you're absolutely right. There is no other solution. One state is never going to happen and the alternative is permanent war. Now, Israelis say they're going, many of them say they will live with that, but I don't think over time they realize the pain that this, you know, even this war, you know, I've talked to Israelis, you know, this war is having a powerful impact on Israeli society. To have all these people in a constant state of diplomatic and being called up, reservists leaving their families. I think there's going to be a reckoning someday in Israel for what happened on October 7 and for the fact that Israelis leaders are not bringing them peace and security, they're just bringing them more war.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's going to be interesting. If there's a reckoning and there needs to be a reckoning, frankly, amongst the Palestinians, I don't mean for the suffering, but they can no longer even hint or even, I don't know, even breathe the word Hamas. I mean, it's absolutely awful, not only for what they did to the Israelis on October 7th, but what hell they have brought down on the heads of, of the Palestinians in Gaza and, and on the occupied West Bank. Here is another question. Jamie, you're going to take this. Should Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize if he helps bring peace to the Middle east or Ukraine? That's Holden on X has asked us that.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, I love this question because Trump talks about getting a Nobel Peace Prize all the time and it's clear that he would love one. He'd like that as much as he'd like to get a visit from the Queen of England or go, you know, have a dinner with her or something like that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, she's deceased.

[Jamie Rubin]

I know. I'm just in the old administration. I know there's a king now. Thank you. And he made a big fuss over getting a meeting with the Queen in his last term. You're right. Good point. Thank you for reminding me. I'm not as up on the royals as you are.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, come on.

[Jamie Rubin]

I think the more likely place for Trump to get a Nobel Peace Prize is not Gaza and the Middle east, it's not Ukraine, it's actually Iran. Because I think it's very interesting right now the situation in Iran where the war after October 7th and the decisions that The Biden administration made with Israel have had the effect of weakening Iran in the region. Hamas is now virtually wiped out. Hezbollah was deeply damaged, so much so that Lebanon is growing as a real political entity and Syria's government fell. Those three elements were crucial to Iran's strength in the region and their weakness. And the Israel's and American defense against Iranian attacks on Israel has put Iran in its weakest moment. And if they can get a deal on nuclear enrichment, which is what they're negotiating, I'd love to be able to praise Trump for his deal making capabilities. I have no problem with that. I happen to think that his positions don't make that likely. And we should. Remember on Iran, the only reason we have a problem is because he pulled out of Obama's deal claiming it wasn't good enough. And we may be back to those same sort of parameters under Trump. But if he makes that deal and eliminates the risk of, of a nuclear Iran or an attack on Iran by Israel or the United States, let him win the Nobel Peace Prize, fine with me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I somehow don't think that's on the table though. Nobels for Iran, I'm not sure. Let's just tell all our listeners and viewers that we are going to do an episode about Iran, all the behind the scenes and where the whole situation stands. But here's another question now. This is more relating to professional career, relationships, success. So, Jet on TikTok, ask Christian, how do you maintain your composure after witnessing so many wars firsthand? Well, Jet, it's a serious question and I have to say that I've gone through all sorts of ups and downs depending on where, when or how I've been covering things. I would say that it gets more and more difficult, actually not more and more easy to witness and to report day after day on the most horrific things happening to ordinary human beings. You know, innocent men, not the fighters, but the innocent men, the innocent women and the innocent children.

[Jamie Rubin]

After Darius was born, it became harder.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, it became very difficult. But now even he's grown up now.

[Jamie Rubin]

And didn't that when. When you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It did it made it more difficult.

[Jamie Rubin]

For me an impact?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, yeah, it did. It absolutely did. But you can't see what's happening. And I've been into in Ukraine, you can't see what's happening to the children and the women there and the civilians without just feeling how can this be allowed to happen in the 21st century? You can't see what's happening in Israel and Palestine and say, you know, and, and and agree that it's. It's even possible that it's happening at this time. It should have stopped ages ago. And it's a very, very tragic thing. But I guess the only way I maintain my composure is I know I need to tell the stories, I know I need to get the interviews, and I think that's the only way that I can tell the story of all of this suffering. So that's how I. That's how I do it. Danny on YouTube asks Now, this is for you, Jamie. For UK viewers and listeners, can you explain how the US cabinet appointments work? Can the president just appoint whoever they like?

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, it is a very different system. It's not a parliamentary system. So cabinet appointments are at the pleasure of the president. And in theory, yeah, he can appoint anyone who passes muster that he chooses. But then there's a thing called advice and consent of the Senate, and that's what changed under President Trump, is that the Senate basically decided to give Trump the freedom to choose people who in a previous era would have been deemed unfit for office or whose qualifications would have been challenged. So as long as 51 members of the Senate support the president, yeah, he can pick pretty much whoever he wants. In the old days, there used to be real questions asked and real political discussions and advice and consent was more of a, you know, behind the scenes, they would actually get the advice of the senators on who would be a good pick. Biden, as a former senator, I remember, would run his appointments by senators to see how they'd respond. Look, the thing about Trump is he's used the powers of the presidency to their maximum extent. And as a Democrat, we often wish our Democratic presidents would do that. But for a variety of reasons, Trump is using those powers of the presidency to the maximum extent. And until senators or House members, if there's an election in 18 months and the Democrats win, put pressure on the administration, he's going to be free to pretty much do whatever he wants. And so far he has.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So let's just quickly expand on that because there were some who were noticeably unqualified that nonetheless got through because none of the. Not enough. I mean, maybe one or two Republicans pushed back, but for instance, Pete Hegseth was roundly considered unqualified for the job of Defense Secretary. Obviously Matt Gertz, who then. Or Gates, rather, who then resigned because he was such a total.

[Jamie Rubin]

And Robert Kennedy Jr. The anti health. Robert Kennedy Jr. Is the head of the health.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But none of the Republicans would dare because they would get MAGA swarmed as one of the senators told me so in this instance with President Trump being the president and wanting who he wants. And many say, you know, it's the loyalty test, it's the ideology test. The senators said it's just not worth it. If I want to literally some a senator told me this, a Republican I have, I don't know, I'm going to just approximate what this person said. 3.4 million constituents and I need a seat at the table for my constituents and I don't need to be primaried, in other words, run out of office by the MAGA troops if I don't agree to this.

[Jamie Rubin]

That's the best defense they can come up with. I remember the senator from Alaska even admitted that they're scared of Trump. Look, that's the politics of today.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so let us take a quick break and we have some more questions after the break. Welcome back to the bonus episode of Christiane Manpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. Jamie, let's continue these questions from so many really interesting people who want to know various things, not just on substance or rather on policy, but on our relationship as well. So here's Rachel on Instagram who asks, was it difficult to balance your high pressure careers and relationship? We can both answer this. Jamie. Yes, I don't think that was the problem.

[Jamie Rubin]

No, it wasn't the reason we got divorced, but it was, it was. I don't think there was any one reason. And when we get that question someday, don't worry, we're not going to answer it. It no, look, you worked very, very hard. You traveled around the world to very, very dangerous places. You were a mother and a professional and a wife. And I had a very difficult job in the first year or two. And then I had some pretty intense jobs over those subsequent 20 years. Yeah, sure, it was hard. I mean, the modern life is completely different. I was comfortable in the early years, you know, having a full time job or you did. But I don't think you can try to do all three things, have a great job, have a great marriage and have great kids without having some tensions. It's just not possible.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I also agree, even as a very committed feminist, I think it's hard to have all of that all at the same time. I think it's all a balance. And I hope young people and young women understand that it is all a balance. And of course, we're lucky because we had some help. But, and that was lucky. So we were part of the lucky group. But also, as Jamie said, we did have very you know, high pressured jobs. But we made, I think I will definitely say that we made our son our priority. There's no doubt about. I remember insisting that my team send me back from Africa. This has just popped into my head right now. A documentary I was doing because it was Darius's, I don't know, school play, nativity or something when he was five years old. I swear to God, I got, I got back into.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, you always did the important things and we can be, you know, we both said it is that Darius managed to get the best of each one of us.

[Christiane Amanpour]

He certainly did now. And this is important too. Suzanne on X asks as parents, what advice would you give other parents when navigating the increasing uncertainty regarding a safe and peaceful future? So this is so much personal. It's like, what kind of future are our kids or their young kids going to, quote, unquote, grow up into? And you're sitting back, Jamie, and looking very, very sad. But there has to be hope. The glass has to be half full. You're rocking.

[Jamie Rubin]

I don't know what to say. I mean, the world has been upended by, to me, by our election and America changing its role in the world. For an American, it's hard to feel optimistic about the future, but, but I know many Americans do. Half the country disagrees with me. But look, I think we face a world in which the likes of Russia and China together are going to try to make the rules for our world. Whether that means an invasion of Taiwan, whether it means controlling the East China Sea or controlling Asia or dominating the world economy or imposing privacy rules. You imagine what it's like to live in China where if you walk across the street against a red light, you get a social credit score that says you've behaved badly and your health care can be taken away. I mean, that's a world that China is trying to export to Africans governments, to Latin American governments. All this smart cities where you have incredible amounts of AI focused on individual behavior. That kind of world worries me. I don't know what I would say to Darius if he were a young kid now. He's got his own views now, but.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It'S tough again, Angela Merkel, who is a smart person, no matter what she did wrong on Russia. But you know, she, when Putin lied to her, she asked him, who are these people who have annexed Crimea?

[Jamie Rubin]

Little blue green men.

[Christiane Amanpour]

He said, right, little green men. So this was in the 2014. And she said, the rule breakers are now making the rules. The rule breakers are the rule makers. And I Think that's super important to remember. But I, I think we need a world in which we are serious about our climate and our environment. Right now. It's like, off the table globally. But I also think there's some, you know, green shoots. There are people who are coming out, no matter who you vote for. When a turnout in an election is overwhelming, that's a good thing. You know, and I think we've seen some, you know, going back to the center, neither left nor right.

[Jamie Rubin]

I could live with a little lesser turnout and a better response.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, no, heavy turnout is good.

[Jamie Rubin]

Good.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I think compulsory elections are good as well. You know, the, The. The Prime Minister of Australia told me that one of the reasons Australia never goes to any extreme is because it has mandatory. I know this is really important, mandatory elections on pain of that, but it's not a huge find. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because what that does is it takes away those. What do they call it, those micro targeting of. Of. Of everyone has to extremist or niche groups.

[Jamie Rubin]

Unfortunately, that. That isn't likely to happen in America. So.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Well, anyway. All right, so let's carry on. There's one from Maya on Instagram asks, what do you make of the current situation in Bosnia Herzegovina? So that is something we worked on a lot in the 90s. I was correspondent, you were in the government. And it was a terrible situation as a smaller version of what Russia is doing to Ukraine, Serbia was doing to the Bosnians that. Taking territory, killing civilians, trying to carve out a greater Serbia. Well, now in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is a. A very worrying nationalist move again, and a lot of it is being promoted by Russia, by Serbia, and using the Bosnian Serb part to sort of kind of crash the. The joint federal structure that was created after the war. But the good news is, and this is the good news to me, the Serbian nationalist system, the Serbian nationalist government, who was. Who is a nationalist, is under huge pressure from huge numbers of young Serbians.

[Jamie Rubin]

In Serbia proper protesting.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, in Serbia proper. But that influences what happens in Bosnia. Right. And it's a really. Again, it's a demonstration of people power, and they are demonstrating against corruption in Serbia. And it's a very important moment. And it may have, you know, you never know where that might lead.

[Jamie Rubin]

Look, I think having peace in Bosnia is far better than war, and that was accomplished at the Dayton peace Accords in 1994. They've held for all those years, 30 years. But the idea behind them of being able to have a unified political system has never succeeded. And the nationalism and separatism and extremism of ethnic groups in Bosn continues to make it a dysfunctional society. And until they get over that, it's going to be better than war, but it's not going to thrive the way their neighbors are and the way they could, if they could focus a little more on what joins people together and a little less on what divides us.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But again, it will take a change of direction in Serbia, and you never know, that might happen. That's we're very close to the end. But just one quick question. Jamie, Leah on Instagram asks, is this the time for a stronger and more unified Europe? In one moment, one minute, Absolutely.

[Jamie Rubin]

I think if there is a silver lining to President Trump's unusual policy towards Ukraine, where we're removing our support for Ukraine, it's that Europe is standing up and they are united. They are determined. They see the war in Ukraine as a war on Europe, which it is. And they're going to unite and be stronger and give more support to Ukraine and hopefully give more support to NATO, because we're gonna need it. You know, Russia's military, even if this war stops, there were stories today about Russia will reorient its forces towards Finland. And my point is just that we just have to accept that with Putin's Russia, there's a grave threat to Europe. With Putin's Russia, supported by Xi Jinping in China, there's a grave threat to the world. These two authoritarian systems are unified in remarkable ways. They're sharing technology. And we need to recognize that instead of putting our heads in the sand. And a strong and united Europe is a first step towards recognizing.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, and it's a work in progress. But as you say, it's something that we see happening every day in reaction to what the US and what Russia is doing. And it's about time. We're a continent of 500 million people and it's about time that we showed, you know, showed our strength, in my view, politically, culturally and in every other way.

[Jamie Rubin]

And on that note, note that happy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Note, that happy note. Let us say thanks for listening to the bonus episode of Christiane Amanpo presents the X Files with my ex, Jamie Rubin. Thanks for all the questions. Remember, if you ever want to ask us anything, you can reach us with your questions on social media. We're on all the major platforms, Amanpourpod or you can email amanpourpodlobal.com and remember that our next episode will come out on on Tuesday. And you can see that and listen on Global Player and You can download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer. Com.

[Jamie Rubin]

This is a Global Player original podcast.