← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
The questions Trump’s Gaza peace plan doesn’t answer
00:36:19
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- [00:03]
A
This is a global player original podcast. I've moved from Washington to New York and this is now my all my furniture. Some of it will be recognizable to you, Madam Amanpour.
- [00:13]
B
Some of it will. And by the way, if you are unpacking and you see a beautiful down jacket which has a gold interior and a khaki exterior, I want it. It's mine. Trump is finally asserting himself in terms of getting off the sidelines and using the lever he has with the Prime Minister of Israel. This doesn't look like a peace plan right now.
- [00:37]
A
There are 150 small details that need to be worked out.
- [00:41]
B
Big details, Jamie. Not one single Palestinian according to this plan is consulted.
- [00:47]
A
Trump's announcement caused new demonstrations. So if Trump would just stay out of it, butt out, Oregon would be able to handle its own problems. I see the Statue of Liberty every day when I go running or walking. I don't run much. I walk more.
- [01:00]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say. Really? That's new.
- [01:02]
A
Yeah, that is. Would be. I hate jogging.
- [01:08]
B
Hello everyone, it is us with the X Files again. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
- [01:13]
A
And I'm Jamie Rubin, a two time State Department official under Presidents Clinton and Biden.
- [01:18]
B
So as we're recording and as our podcast gets released this week, it is two years since the horrors of October 7th when Hamas burst out of Gaza into Israel, killing 1,200 people and kidnapping 2, 250. And this is the issue that's at stake right now because Trump, Hamas, Netanyahu, they're all talking about trying to figure out a way out of this. Trump says move fast. So Jamie and I are going to discuss is this a peace plan or is it a ceasefire? And even if it is just a ceasefire, what are the devil in the details? And I think it's notable that Trump is finally asserting himself in terms of getting off the sidelines and using the leverage he has with the Prime Minister of Israel. Jamie?
- [02:03]
A
Yes. Well, for me this is pretty exciting really. You know, about a year ago, Secretary Tony Blinken and I began working, or I began working for him on the Middle East. And one of the things that occurred is that I began exploiting a relationship I had with Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister. And I brought these two guys together, Tony Blair and Tony Blinken. And I used to have a little signal chat, TB1 and TB2 and me and Tony Blair.
- [02:32]
B
And I don't go displaying classified information like Hegseth did. Stop talking about signal.
- [02:39]
A
Yeah, well, this was a signal chat and I was authorized to make my own decisions as to who to share information with. Bringing Tony Blair in was a stroke of genius for the United States because Tony Blair has the ability to talk privately and and confidentially to Prime Minister Netanyahu and to the key Arab leaders who are going to help make a decision that will allow this war to end. We brought Tony Blair in, and Tony Blinken and Tony Blair then developed a plan, and this is essentially the document. And we began negotiating that plan with the Palestinians, with the Israelis, and with all the Arab countries. And what I find interesting is that essentially it's the same plan that Donald Trump has now put forward with himself as chairman of the board, which is, as far as I'm concerned, terrific. But I think we should bear in mind this could have been done 10 months ago. This could have been done right away. Nothing has changed on the ground in Israel or the Gaza Strip. What's changed is that Prime Minister Netanyahu, in an act of hubris, went one step too far. He thought he could get the trophy of killing Hamas political leaders inside Qatar and then may be moving to a peace agreement. And by that act of hubris, he alienated President Trump and infuriated the Gulf leaders because he violated the sovereignty of Qatar, where these negotiators were working on, for everybody's benefit, a peace.
- [04:07]
B
Let's follow up on that, Jamie, because there has been a lot of writing about that and how Trump. And we're going to insert a picture which the White House released, of Trump holding the physical telephone in the Oval Office and essentially making Netanyahu call the authorities in Qatar, the Prime Minister, I think, and reading a text of apology now that went down incredibly far and wide in Israel. And they believe Netanyahu has really, you know, has really been had and that he's finally been read the riot act. But let me ask you this, Jamie, because you say it's an act of genius. If this is the genius of your plan back in Biden, reading through it and reading a lot of the analysis of it, there are very few details. It's a broad plan. It doesn't talk in, in this iteration about the status of all the important things. This doesn't look like a peace plan right now. And I've been speaking to some Arab leaders who are concerned about Jerusalem, the West Bank, a Palestinian state, not to mention, you know, what happens. How do you even get food and, and, and, and aid in? How do you get the Israelis to move back? How do you get the Palestinians, Hamas, in, in this case in Gaza to, you know, to disarm and to, you know, fade into the background one way or another. So I don't know about genius, but I do know that if a ceasefire does come into effect, at the very least it'll stop the slaughter in Gaza and return the hostages to their families in Israel.
- [05:41]
A
First of all, let me say that I'm not so arrogant as to call my own plan genius. That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that the fact that Donald Trump has finally adopted the plan that has been on the table that was left to him by the Biden administration is great. It's great news because in so doing, he is putting pressure on Netanyahu to do what? This plan that we developed a year ago, that is contained in his plan, has as its central core the only solution to this crisis, namely the Israeli forces leave Gaza, an Arab force is deployed inside Gaza so that Hamas can never again rebuild its military capability. The hostages are released and the people of Gaza can then get surged humanitari aid and this war can end. That's the essence of the plan. You're absolutely right. There are 150 small details that need to be worked out. And the world has big details, Jamie.
- [06:41]
B
This is, this is big details. Not one single Palestinian according to this plan is consulted. It has a, has a, has a signature on it or anything. So that's number one.
- [06:51]
A
That's not true. That's not true at all. The way this plan works is that the Palestinian Authority, that's your plan, will be involved in developing the Governing Council for Gaza. That's the concept. Yes, Tony Blair has given a big role and yes, Donald Trump has given a big role. That was the breakthrough because the Palestinian Authority made an important decision. They didn't want to be the people that stood in the way of peace. They didn't want to insist, as they did a year ago on being on top of that council. They didn't want to insist that Gaza would be ruled by the Palestinian Authority. That's what they did a year ago and that's what made it impossible for this agreement to be made. The Palestinian Authority has cleverly and smartly and wisely, with the help of some wise Norwegian diplomats that both of you and I know, sat back and allowed this to happen. Because they know that once the Arab force is deployed and Hamas has to step back, the only alternative is the Palestinian Authority and the people associated with it. And that is, in the end, a movement towards a Palestinian state, a two state solution, which to me is the, the ultimate Defeat of an ideology, the ideology of Hamas would be defeated by the ideology of a two state solution. Palestinians will be consulted. They will be part of this, if it works. Right, but that's not even the hardest part. The hardest part is just agreeing right now to the areas that Israel will move back to so that the Hamas leaders will give up the hostages. That's what's on the table today, tomorrow and the next day. And that's what may kill the whole thing before it gets started. The idea is once hostages are released and the Israelis move back, then all these things have to be worked out.
- [08:41]
B
Okay, so let's just take a breath for a second. Take a breath. Take a breath. I'll try. Because. Okay, so you tell me how you think Netanyahu is gonna strong arm his extreme right, who have stopped him from doing precisely this kind of thing. Even if he was inclined to, which he's not, how is he gonna convince them to, A, withdraw from Gaza, B, give up the idea of the total defeat, so to speak, of Hamas, C, have some kind of have a Palestinian state after Netanyahu himself said, we are burying any chance of a Palestinian state. So there are no details right now. There just aren't. Jamie, I've read the 20 points, I've read it closely. The most important thing I believe that's going to happen is the President is calling for the immediate release of the hostages. Right?
- [09:33]
A
That's exactly right. The first step, essentially, if this is ever going to work. And believe me, I'm no cockeyed optimist, I'm not saying, you know, peace is broken out. I'm just saying there's been a breakthrough because President Trump has put the hammer down on Netanyahu in the way you exactly suggested, forcing him to apologize and telling him this is it, this is the solution. And the solution is beginning. The Israelis pull back, the hostages are released by Hamas. That's step one. If that doesn't happen, the whole thing collapses after that. And Palestinian prisoners, by the way, are released inside Israel and Gazans who have been taken and apprehended. That's the first beginning of a sort of ceasefire hostage exchange. That was always understood. The hardest part is who governs Gaza, how does it rebuild? How do you get aid in there? How do you give the Palestinians a role in their life? And how do you make sure Hamas is no longer ruling the roost? And this plan has a lot more in it, frankly, than ours did, because Bibi Netanyahu insisted on putting in Hamas, Hamas disarmament. I don't see how that happens. That doesn't seem realistic to me. That seems pie in the sky. How will Bibi get this through his own coalition? I don't know. That's his problem. And he's always good at solving problems that are political. And Yair Lapid, his opponent in the parliament, has said he will support Netanyahu in this peace process. So there's enough political support for it in Israel. It's Bibi's problem. How to deal with Smotrich and Ben gvir, these crazy people who call for the murder of innocent men, women and children. And if this process goes on long enough, we can finally have an election in Israel, and then the Israeli people as a democracy can decide who they want ruling them. Because right now, I don't think a majority of Israelis really want this current government. With Ben GVIR and Smotrich able to stop everything.
- [11:23]
B
I just have to be a little devil's advocate as the reporter here, because bombardment continues, the starvation continues. I know they're having discussions about how to get the hostages from all the other disparate folks who've. Who've apparently been, you know, given the hostages to mind in some way or another. 750,000 Palestinians had to flee from Gaza City so far. And there's literally, they say they report nothing there, but the most important nothing down south for them. No food, no water, no nothing. Despite what the Israelis have told the world, that there's a whole welcoming, you know, humanitarian committee for them. It's not happened. But one thing we haven't mentioned, I think it is important, and you'll agree, is that when this breakthrough did happen and when it was, you know, breaking news on Wednesday night, Palestinians were inside Gaza, were busy calling their Western interlocutors, Western press, their stringers inside, you know, the journalists inside Gaza, to say, this is what we want. We want an end to this. We cannot carry on under this, you know, more than two years of this bombardment. One other thing, the thing that I think is important to ask you is the disarmament in Northern Ireland, which Tony Blair is a veteran of. The Good Friday agreement. They spent 10 years after the Good Friday Agreement dealing with the disarmament process. It finally did happen. And in the middle of it, do you remember, Jamie, we were on honeymoon. I mean, literally, almost, I don't know, a year after Good Friday, and there was a massive attack that killed a lot of people. And it was a splinter IRA group. And. And, you know, people were very scared that this would torpedo the whole thing. Very fortunately, it didn't, because cooler heads prevailed, and they did continue down the path of peace and disarmament and reconciliation to a large extent.
- [13:13]
A
Two things you said that are extremely important. Number one, Blair's role in Northern Ireland has been extremely valuable in bringing to bear on the Palestinian Israeli dispute. And the point here is that you can get bogged down in all the details, and negotiators tend to do that, and so do diplomats. But what happened in Northern Ireland is the people of Northern Ireland finally had enough of the IRA's terrorism ruining their lives, and the extremists on the other side, their political views preventing a peace agreement. And the people of Northern Ireland said enough is enough. And what you said about Palestinians saying enough is enough is the essentially same point here. The only way this works is Hamas steps back, releases the hostages, and then when a peace agreement starts, when real governance starts, when reconstruction starts, when the, you know, the Egyptian forces are deployed, the people are so happy and thrilled to have what President Clinton called the quiet miracle of a normal life, that their popular support for this makes it too hard for Hamas to ruin it. As far as decommissioning and disarmament is concerned, you'll note in the. The actual agreement, they're using the same language as the Northern Ireland agreement, putting the weapons, quote, beyond use, unquote. And you're absolutely right. It took a long time for that to be declared and affirmed. And I think it'll take even longer for there to be confirmation that all of Hamas weapons are beyond use. The Wall Street Journal had some good interviews with people who were former Hamas supporters who said, these people don't care about our lives. That's what had to change. And if that changes, then the Palestinian Authority will get its chance to prove that it can govern responsibly and without corruption.
- [15:05]
B
Let's just talk about this governing thing, because you've worked with Tony Blair. I've worked as a journalist interviewing Tony Blair. I think there's going to be some questions raised about his record in Iraq.
- [15:16]
A
Absolutely.
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B
And about the idea of a, quote, unquote, neocolonialism. Do you see what I mean? Like having a high representative from a white Western nation. And the Palestinians have, you know, been paternalized for a long, long time. And I'm just interested to see how the Palestinians take it. And I'm not talking about Hamas. I'm talking about the people and the Palestinian Authority and how the rest of the Arab world takes that.
- [15:43]
A
It's to be determined. And I agree with you that Tony Blair is Not an obvious choice. That's why it's so remarkable that he's there and why we didn't envisage him playing a forward facing role. We never thought that for the reasons that you just suggested, but also because.
- [15:59]
B
He'S viewed as very much pro Israeli.
- [16:01]
A
By the way, all of those factors. But he was able to talk to the Arab leaders. So you got to remember there's a big difference between the Arab leaders and their people. And they talk to a lot of people and they're willing to talk to a lot of people that are very unpopular inside their countries in the so called Arab street. And Blair was able to move the Arabs to a unified position. So it wasn't the Palestinian authorities demand for a seat at the top of the table that ruined this deal. And so Trump took the seat and then he gave his second seat seat to Blair. And all of that is meaningless if there aren't people who are experts and diplomats who sit down every day for the coming year, week after week to make this happen. This is going to be the hardest operation you can possibly imagine. To turn a hellhole into a place where people want to live with an Arab force, with Hamas stepping back, with the Israelis moving and threat and being able to come in and out whenever they want. All of these questions have to be worked out. All I'm saying is we've made a breakthrough here. That's what a breakthrough is. It's not the end of the road. It's a breakthrough.
- [17:06]
B
Yes, there is a breakthrough. And if the killing stops and the hostages get back to their families, that will be excellent. But we just have to hope that the overseers of all this keep their eye on the ball and make sure that it is a just and equitable future. I think it's very interesting. Also, new polls have come out. The war has literally, quote, unquote, tanked American support for Israel. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. Right now we're in the midst, I don't know that it's ended yet, but over the past few days, there's been a nationwide general strike in Italy over, you know, their governments dealing with this issue. It's huge and very divisive, shall we say, on the second anniversary of this horror, let us hope that there's a tiny bit of light that's now shining through for all sides. And shall we end and go to the second part of our conversation, which is about the US Government, government shutdown under Trump and what Gavin and Newsom is saying, America being on the Brink of martial law. We'll explain when we come back. We're back, Jamie and I, with the second part of our discussion. And obviously we want to talk about the continued US Government shutdown. I'm not sure that happens in other parts of the world, but the government has shut down. Trump is saying that he's gonna use it to mass fire federal workers. Again. They are freaking out federal workers who've been really under assault since his first administration. And Trump is saying that he wants to use this moment to really push the boundaries of militarizing the streets of America. And when I say the streets, I mean Democratic run blue cities. Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, has said he refuses to allow allowed his troops to be seconded to Oregon, for instance. Oregon. And he's warning that America, quote, is on the brink of martial law. Jamie, how does this happen?
- [19:06]
A
I mean, I can't believe we're talking about martial law in the United States for no reason. There's no reason for it. In Portland, the local police and the state police have done a perfectly good job and there's no problem. In fact, Trump's announcement caused new demonstrations. So if Trump would just stay out of it, it butt out. Oregon would be able to handle its own problems. And significantly, a court has ruled exactly that, that it's up to states to police their own country. Own states. And the federal government only gets involved in extreme cases, like when George Wallace refused to let black students go into school after a Supreme Court decision ruled that they could. I believe the Supreme Court will rule in favor of states rights when this gets to the Supreme Court. In the meantime, local incidents are starting to happen all over the country. In Chicag, Chicago, there was a case where there was an incident. And the Chicago mayors and the Chicago governors don't believe the federal agents when they say that it's always the perpetrator's fault. And this is how civil conflict begins. So if the Trump administration tries to militarize our country, it's going to be up to our military to do what they did last week, which is not perhaps be the full throated supporters of Donald Trump that he hoped they would be. When he called the generals in and they barely made a muscle, moved a chin, or even giggled at any of his jokes. Not that generals would giggle, but I mean, that they did what they were supposed to do. Nothing. They just listened and privately told everyone how weird it was to have this jumped up defense secretary tell them how to act.
- [20:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, some people said they were, you know, trying hard not to laugh at this nonsense that they were listening to, but it's actually serious nonsense, because that is where Trump again said we need to use American cities to, as training grounds for our military, for the enemy within. In.
- [20:59]
A
Oops, sorry, I'm having a. A cramp.
- [21:01]
B
Oh, my gosh. I think you're having a reaction to militarizing, you know, American citizen.
- [21:07]
A
It hurts.
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B
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. It hurts. So, listen, let me chat while you're in pain then.
- [21:13]
A
I'm better now.
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B
So you mentioned the Illinois. Illinois. And the governor. So he has had to say no to Texan troops which were going to be deployed to Chicago. He called it an invasion. He urged, quote, every American to speak up and stop this madness. And he also said that administration officials want to create a war zone so they can send in even more troops. So this is, this is a real issue. But Trump keeps saying, we have an enemy within. Jamie, where is this going to end up? Because, you know, with a government shutdown and absent, you know. Well, let's see if the courts do amp up their rejections of this kind of deployment of federal troops and the military, et cetera. But where do you think this is going to lead to?
- [21:58]
A
Well, first of all, I don't think anybody knows where we're going. Obviously, Donald Trump has pushed every boundary possible in terms of his attempt to make his role as commander in chief to turn the US Military into his own militia, to attack the cities that he doesn't like. It's absurd, it's ridiculous, and I think the courts will stop him. But what we need is, we need military officials to do, for example, what they did in Washington when they were deployed there. They made sure that the National Guard troops were put off on duties where they weren't going to get into conflict with citizens. They guarded monuments that didn't need to be guarded. They guarded buildings that didn't need to be guarded. So the truth is that the rubber.
- [22:38]
B
And they picked up trash.
- [22:39]
A
Yeah, rubber will hit the road in how the US Military performs its duties. We know the ICE people are going to behave irresponsibly as they have already, but I don't believe the US Military will do the same. And meanwhile, if the courts keep rejecting Donald Trump's attempt to take over our country with military forces, I think the states will police themselves and these National Guard deployments will reduce in significance where I'm really worried, and we've talked about this before, but we'll just leave this hanging is what happens next November when there's an election, and I believe the Democrats will win, and Trump may ask National Guard troops to take the ballot boxes. That's where you have conflict.
- [23:22]
B
Yeah, well, let's just hope that doesn't happen, but let's just talk about it then. The Democrats are not budging for the moment because they have decided and, you know, to use something that is really important to the American people, including Republican citizens and MAGA citizens, and that's healthcare. And they have drawn this line in the sand over healthcare. They're not gonna go back and let Trump, which he's always wanted to do, he's been gunning for Obamacare ever since he was first elected in 1.0, and now he's doing it by other means. He's trying to do it by other means. Jamie. Jimmy, you were there, right? You were in Clinton's administration when there was a major showdown between then House Speaker Newt Gingrich for the Republicans, who caused a government shutdown, right?
- [24:08]
A
Exactly. That was during the first term of President Clinton when Newt Gingrich became the leader of the Republicans in the House, and they basically tried to dictate. And he used to call himself like a prime minister, even though he didn't have those powers. And Clinton and Gingrich had a face off. And in the end, Clinton. Clinton won that face off because Gingrich had to capitulate. Part of the reason he capitulated was because even as we were working, remember when these shutdowns happened, there's kind of two levels of government. We'd be sitting there in the offices of political appointees who were deemed essential workers, and we went to work every day. The rest of the workforce went home. And a lot of the work of the federal government stops or slowed or people don't get paid for work that they do. We can get back to that in a second. But the important point here is that Newt Gingrich was forced to leave Air Force One through the back entrance and complained about it loudly. And the Daily News, I think then owned by Mort Zuckerman, had a big headline called Crybaby. And that was so damaging to the Republicans that they ended up capitulating. That was the first major shutdown. There have been several shutdowns since then, the longest one under Trump. These things are weird because government often acts without the federal bureaucracy. People think, as, you know, one unit, it doesn't work that way. So the federal bureaucracy maybe goes home. But meanwhile, you have air traffic controllers, you have national parks, and the air traffic controllers are not getting Paid military officers are not going to be paid. And I think in the end, the Democrats have decided that health care is a way of standing up to the Trump administration. The details of this are mind numbing, but what they boil down to, as best as I can understand it, is whether middle class Americans will get help in having health care. Will the government reduce their taxes or provide them benefits so that the cost of health care is reduced and Obamacare brought, I think, something like 20 million Americans into the health care system? Will those people have to drop out? That's what the Democrats are counting on. And they believe that that is a winning issue politically. And we're going to find out if it is. If Americans speak up, if they're loud enough to cause pain to Republicans, who then agree to some moderate compromise. Remember, our system only works when people compromise. If everyone stands in their corner and just says they're right and the other guy's wrong, government will stay shut down for a long time.
- [26:43]
B
And obviously an overarching issue in terms of the ICE stuff that we've been talking about and the militarization of cities is about immigration, gathering and deporting these immigrants, people protesting these deportation tactics. Just to say that this weekend during a Tory party conference there, the Republicans, if you will, the mainstream Republicans, they used to be of Great Britain. Politics here is, is, is bringing a sort of a MAGA version in the, in the form of reform by Nigel Farage, who brought us all Brexit. So the Tories have decided to take a page out of, out of your book, Jamie. Not yours, but America's book, Trump's book. They will want to bring in, they say, ICE like tactics. If they come into power and forcibly deport something like 150,000 people, illegals, they say, per year, year. And they might even, or they will, they say, if they come into power, pull out of the European Court on Human rights, which among other things, has been used by asylum seekers to challenge when their asylum petition is, is denied. And so you could see potentially if there's a Tory government, they're all tacking to the right, including a little bit, tiny bit, the labor government, to try to beat off, off our version of MAGA here, which is, as I say, Nigel Farage's reform.
- [28:06]
A
I find this whole idea that foreigners are bad offensive. I wake up every morning, my grandparents came to this country. I see the Statue of Liberty every day. When I go running or walking. I don't run much. I walk more.
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B
Yeah, I was gonna say.
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A
Really?
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B
That's new.
- [28:22]
A
Yeah, that Is. Would be new. I hate jogging. So, anyway, I see the Statue of Liberty and I'm reminded what America was made of. It was made of. Of immigrants who made good in this country. So Donald Trump's parents were immigrant, grandparents were IMM immigrants. This whole idea that foreigners are bad in Europe and the United States, in Britain, of all places, and the United States, these two countries have benefited from their openness to foreigners to come live and get asylum and then improve the United States, improve the United Kingdom. That's what London was during World War II. Why?
- [28:57]
B
No, no, you're right, but you're waxing so nostalgic. I mean, we're in a position right now, now where, you know, populism and nationalism feeds on the easiest thing to feed on, and that is the foreigner, because of this gigantic inequality gap, the gigantic truth and credibility gap, the gigantic, you know, partisanship and poison of politics that have just caused everyone to go to the extremes.
- [29:22]
A
But that's why I want to say it, because I want us all to remember people who listen, who. Who might watch this, to remember what America is and to remember what the UK's greatness is. And then maybe these extremists who try to turn us against each other will fail. That's the point. And in my recommendation, I'm going to talk a little bit about why the extremism has been succeeding. So I guess it's time to go to that phase.
- [29:49]
B
Yeah, we'll take a break and we'll come back.
- [29:54]
A
Foreign.
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B
Everybody. Hi again, Jamie. We're going to talk about our recommendations. I'm going to just jump in there, please. I am going to be interviewing this week the great film director Werner Herzog. He's out with a new book called the Future of Truth, which I'm about to dive into, but I highly recommend it and to watch my interview with Verna Herzog, because truth is a casualty, which. Which is destroying our democracy and our civil society as well. And one other thing I want to recommend is a great new film called the House, A house full of dynamite. Epic, brilliant, brilliant thriller by Katherine Bigelow of Zero Dark Thirty, of the Hurt Locker, et cetera. And it's about a potential nuclear strike on America.
- [30:41]
A
Great.
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B
And it is so. No, it's so well done. But. But in the end, I'm going to tell you the issues I have with it.
- [30:48]
A
Well, don't tell me, because I want to go watch it. But in the meantime, I think we're both onto the same subject because it cuts to the core of what's going on in our world. So you may remember there was this famous guy named Francis Fukuyama who in 1989 declared the end of history, which probably was not a phrase he would write again because it became misinterpreted and obviously history didn't end. But his point turned out to be right wrong, that democracy was not going to thrive and grow and take over the world, so to speak, that in the end, after a 10 year period of democracy growing, it turned the other way. And we have China and its Communist Party, we have populism, extremists, we have authoritarian government with Putin. And authoritarianism rather than democracy seems to be more popular than it was back then. But Francis Fukuyama has written an article in a magazine called Persuasion that I think is fascinating for this very reason. What he's addressing is the question of why right wing and mobocracy and populism has suddenly started thriving in the Western world, so to speak, in the UK over Brexit, in the United States, over Trumpism in Western and Eastern Europe with these authoritarian leaders. And what he concludes in this article after looking at what he says, the 10 plausible reasons why populism is becoming so dominant and dangerous, there's only one that makes sense. Nine of them don't make any sense. I won't give up the whole article, but the one that makes sense is the rise of the Internet and social media that has created extremism, that has let extremism thrive, that has created the growth of conspiracy theories and basic facts which used to be accepted in the 90s and the 2000s are no longer accepted. And those basic facts about the role, for example, of immigrants actually being helpful to our countries and our economy and doing jobs that people don't want to do. Those basic facts get lost in a world where social media and the Internet has destroyed the truth, as you put it in your recommendation.
- [33:03]
B
There's that, the actual fighting over the facts and the truth. And then there's the other thing about social media, which weaponizes and uses for its profit, you know, motive, hate. It delivers hate because by hate and conflict and thuggery and refusal to believe in basic facts and civility, that's what makes social media companies thrive. That's their economic model. And that I've heard President Macron here in France obviously beleaguered.
- [33:33]
A
My second recommendation was to read Macro Macron's speech because what he, what he said there is they made a terrible mistake in Europe to allow American and Chinese social media companies to dominate their public Square and destroy the basic facts.
- [33:48]
B
It's not just the facts, Jamie. It's not just the facts. It's the weaponization of hatred. You know, it's the clickbait craziness that makes people just go towards anger, conflict, and all of that. And just, there's no, you know, bringing people together on this. And I think that's. That's the real problem.
- [34:08]
A
What Macron forgets in that speech is it's the Europeans who passed and have on the books something called the Digital Services act, and they want to regulate the social media companies because they did recognize the danger. Now, what they have to do is use that Digital Services act and stand up to President Trump, who wants to defend the techno bosses, essentially, and prevent the Europeans from pursuing their own laws in their own country.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah, we're getting quite far away from our recommendations, but this is important. And one more thing that he said is journalism, newspapers, tv, et cetera, we have to abide by rules. Social media, no rules whatsoever. And it's a complete and utter destructive, poisonous, wild west. Just to end this, because I'm super happy about this and it is a recommendation. I think everybody should take Note that after 1,400 years of the Anglican Church here in the United Kingdom, the official church, a woman has been named the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the church. And I think it's a great day for progress and maybe for some civility as well. I'm just going to end there. We are, over and out. So thank you all for listening and make sure you are always following the feed so you never miss an episode. Remember, you can watch our episodes on YouTube as well. You can search Christiane Amanpour presents the x files on YouTube and subscribe to our channel. Listen free on Global Player, download it from the App Store, or go to globalplayer.com and we'll see you, of course, on Thursday. As usual, with the bonus Q and A episode. We do love hearing from you and we love answering your questions. So keep them coming. Email us@amanpourpodlobal.com or find us all over the benighted social media that we've just been talking about at Amanpur Pod. We give you the truth, okay?
- [36:03]
A
And we're civil as best as we can. Anyway, goodbye from New York.
- [36:07]
B
Goodbye from London.
- [36:15]
A
This is a Global Player original podcast.