← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
Trump, the Middle East, and the peace deal you never heard about
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- [00:03]
Christiane Amanpour
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:06]
Jamie Rubin
Jamie, before we start, I don't know whether you caught this, but the treasury secretary, Scott Besant, said that they've resolved at least for 90 days the trade war. They've put that on hold. I laughed. Actually, he said US And China don't want to decouple. At least their couples therapy is working.
- [00:25]
Christiane Amanpour
Yes, that's funny.
- [00:27]
Jamie Rubin
Ours didn't. Maybe. Maybe the stakes are a little higher. Welcome to Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. Now, before we get started, let's just take a moment to introduce ourselves. I'm Christiane. You might know me as a longtime foreign correspondent on the front lines. And I now also host an interview program where I try to hold world leaders to account.
- [00:54]
Christiane Amanpour
And I'm Jamie Rubin. I've been a senior official in the State Department under President Biden and President Clinton.
- [01:03]
Jamie Rubin
So we are the exes because we used to be married.
- [01:06]
Christiane Amanpour
We were married actually for 20 years. We've been divorced now for seven.
- [01:10]
Jamie Rubin
We met inside the Security Council in the late 1990s and we got together, Jamie, if you remember, on your boss's government plane heading to the Balkans. She was, of course, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.
- [01:23]
Christiane Amanpour
And I also remember that our wedding day was almost interrupted by Osama bin Laden's attacks on US Embassies in East Africa. We decided to go ahead and get married anyway.
- [01:33]
Jamie Rubin
Now it was interrupted, but it was nearly disrupted because all our bosses were there, top government officials, top CNN officials. And there was a moment when they thought we should all go back to work instead of getting married. But in any event, our marriage was also quite controversial until we proved that it actually didn't have to be. And we'll discuss that in the podcast, too. Government versus the press, husband versus Wife. And I figured that if we, a divorced couple, could tap into our own experiences, remember what worked, what didn't work in some of the most excruciating problems of our then, surely anybody can.
- [02:08]
Christiane Amanpour
I used to say the United States was the indispensable nation helping to solve the world's problems. Without American leadership, problems didn't get resolved. That's much tougher to say these days.
- [02:19]
Jamie Rubin
Because it's all been tossed into the wood chipper. Now, of course, we've had our differences. We don't always disagree in a nice way, hence our divorce. But we have so much experience and so many stories, and there's so much that we just couldn't even tell back then.
- [02:35]
Christiane Amanpour
I used to say that under President Clinton was a time of peace and prosperity. And maybe we can tap into those X Files.
- [02:43]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, not just peace and prosperity, but also solutions. And I think that's really, really, really important to go back and see what works, see whether they can work again. And of course, we'll be doing it from your perspective as a government official, mine as a journalist who used to hold your government and of others, of course, to account. So here we go.
- [03:07]
Christiane Amanpour
The US Will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site. Level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings, level it out, create an economic development that will supply unlimited numbers of jobs and housing for the.
- [03:32]
Jamie Rubin
People of the area. Well, that was the most extraordinary statement and not a huge amount has been done about it since. But the fact of the matter is that we are choosing perhaps one of the most controversial topics as our first topic, not just because it's controversial, but because President Trump is in the Persian Gulf region at the moment. And we want to ask the question, is there any hope of peace in the Middle east? And can Trump be the person to broker some kind of accord between Israel and Gaza, Israel and the Palestinians? What do you think?
- [04:05]
Christiane Amanpour
Not very likely after that comment. To say that all the Palestinians should be moved out is probably the worst version of Middle east peace I've ever heard.
- [04:18]
Jamie Rubin
Part one of our conversation is going to be about where we are now. So Trump is on a visit to the region. The Israeli cabinet has authorized this thing called Operation Gideon's Chariots, which is all about squeezing the Palestinian Palestinians in one place, creating, they say, their own humanitarian distribution center in another part of Gaza, and then trying to figure this out. My question to you is first, why is Trump not going to Israel? Do you think he won't be meeting Bibi?
- [04:49]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I think for Trump, this isn't a peace mission. This isn't a peace effort. I think it's a business effort. I think we've learned clearly enough now after a few months of this administration that business comes first. And I suspect he's looking to get some commitments from the Saudis, from the uae, from the Qataris, whether it's Air Force One or some other long term business commitment. And I suspect he also has been told that peace in the Middle east, starting with ending the war in Gaza, is so hard as to be unimaginable at this stage. And therefore he doesn't want to to focus on that on his first big trip.
- [05:32]
Jamie Rubin
Do you think that they still think about this expulsion? I mean, he made that statement about it'll be the Riviera of the Middle east for the whole world and, you know, the Gazans will leave voluntarily or whatever. Then he sort of walked it back in various Oval Office meetings with various leaders. Nobody's deporting anybody anywhere. What do you think is going on inside the administration regarding how to end this?
- [06:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, look, a government like Trump's has several levels. There's the president, there's the people around him, and then there's the permanent bureaucracy. The permanent bureaucracy are the same people I worked with and they have seen the same things that I saw every day, which is this horrific detail of how difficult it is to get food, medicine and shelter to these million plus people who are living in a hell as hell on earth. And ending the war, ending the Israeli operation is what certainly some of them are focused on. But it's not obvious how to do so. I used to read the intelligence reports every day about the use of military power inside Gaza and obviously I can't get into that. I also was made aware of the extent to which Israeli lawyers were part of the process and they fought with their military, the lawyers in Israel fighting the people in their military about what you can and can't do. I'm sorry to say the lawyers lost a lot more of those battles than they should have.
- [07:07]
Jamie Rubin
Moshe Yalon, who's a Likud, he was anyway defense minister for Bibi Netanyahu at some point. The prime minister has been very, very vocal about this issue and he says that they need to be very, very careful with this idea of transferring and expelling and cleansing and this now, all those words that obviously the far right extremists Smartridge and Ben GVIR use, because those are war crimes. And he said, you know, you're on the verge of telling IDF soldiers to commit war crimes. Now, as you know, Jamie, this is for me such a huge part of the world that I really don't believe the world can be in any way at peace with, without this part of the world being peace. I remember after October 7, breaking down on the air. I never do that. Breaking down on the air, listening to the testimony of those who, you know, young people who'd been wounded at the Nova Festival, listening to women, children, men who had either been wounded and seen their loved ones taken hostage. And then after that, as, as, as you sort of carry on telling that story, the nightmare of the darkness of what's Happening in Gaza and seeing women and children in such a desperate, desperate place. Nothing will change. In fact, unless you get peace and security for Israel and the Palestinians and a state. I mean, how far away do you think we are? I mean, is it Pollyanna?
- [08:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Can you picture in your head the leader of the Palestinians, Bibi Netanyahu and Donald Trump on the White House lawn the way you had Yitzhak Rabin, Yasser Arafat and President Clinton? Can you see that picture in your head? I can't.
- [08:58]
Jamie Rubin
Yitzhak Rabin, of course, was the Israeli prime minister and former defense minister and chief of staff. He was a military man who came to politics the hard way. Yasser Arafat was a resistance leader. He was the head of the plo, which was the Palestinian resistance, did a lot of terrorism in the olden days, but finally came together to realize that they had to go to politics and to fix their outstanding issues.
- [09:26]
Christiane Amanpour
And yes, there are people working on Gaza, a lot of people, probably especially in the military, because this is a very complex operation. There's American weaponry being provided, then there's the whole Middle east defense system against Iranian missiles, against Houthi missiles. So these things are all interconnected. But what I don't think is going on is that in the White House every day, they're doing what President Biden was doing, which is asking their team, what have you done today to end the war in Gaza?
- [09:59]
Jamie Rubin
It's really, really tough. And I don't know, I remember under the Biden administration, basically you all saying that Netanyahu should not have gone into a coalition with these far right extremists, people like Ben GVIR and Smotrich, whose whole goal is spoken and public, that they would be very happy with reoccupying all of Gaza and annexing the West Bank. They'd be very happy, in their own words, to conquer it all. And this seems to be taking on an inexorable direction. Do you think that that is where this is headed? Because Netanyahu hasn't offered any other alternatives. And many in his own cabinet, his own security establishment, are beginning to raise serious questions about him and his plans and his strategies.
- [10:48]
Christiane Amanpour
Later on, when we do the backstory of this, I can get into some of the details of the diplomacy that I was part of that can describe a plausible alternative. But I have not heard this Israeli government revive plausible alternatives because this administration hasn't really pushed them to do so. So I don't personally think there's much prospect anytime soon of this Gaza war coming to a close.
- [11:19]
Jamie Rubin
You've teased Part two. Part two of our conversation. Jamie, you'll tell us what it was actually like to be involved in Middle east peace talks, and I'll share some of my stories. Years of reporting on the ground in that region. That's when we come back. Welcome back. Christiane Amanpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And now we're going to try to take back the curtain, the backstory, how we got to where we are, and see some of the issues that were actually quite hopeful. First of all, Jamie, you were involved. I mean, I didn't even know, but you were involved in some recent diplomacy with the Palestinians.
- [12:04]
Christiane Amanpour
I didn't talk about it very much. It was not publicized to the degree that sometimes these things are.
- [12:10]
Jamie Rubin
But you went over there, right?
- [12:12]
Christiane Amanpour
I did. I did. So there were two phases. First of all, I worked with Secretary Blinken on an actual plan to end the war in Gaza. So we had the hostage talks going on all the time, trying to get hostages out, but we knew that you could never get them all out and you could never end the conflict unless you had a plan. And working very, very closely with the Israelis, with the UAE at first, and working with some outside players. And sometimes in diplomacy, you know, the best ideas often come from outside the government. And Tony Blair and I became sort of best buddies because we talked on the phone a lot. And he was someone who was able to meet privately with Netanyahu, privately with MbS, and obviously the president, Egypt, and all of them. So we were getting these back channel information. So then I would take that to Secretary Blinken and he and I cooked up an actual plan. And because we realized that there's two problems you have to solve. You have to figure out how to get the Israelis out of Gaza, and two, you have to figure out how Gaza is going to be run without Hamas in charge. After Hamas did what it did, there was no way any Israeli government is ever going to let Hamas be in charge of anything ever again. And so these two things had to be done. And so what we came up with was an actual proposal for an international force that would run between Israel and the Palestinian local police, and it would prevent Hamas from ever again rearming and rebuilding its capabilities so that it could ever again do what it did on October 7th. And the Israelis bought into this, and we got their agreement to fully withdraw from Gaza. Now, the hard part was.
- [14:08]
Jamie Rubin
When was that?
- [14:10]
Christiane Amanpour
That was throughout the last six to nine months of the Biden administration. The hard part was to get all the Arabs on board and to get them to commit to forcing Hamas aside, because we understood that we needed all the Arab countries and the Palestinian Authority to stand up and be the leaders of this new ENT that was going to not yet be a Palestinian state, but be a step on the road to a Palestinian state. And so we offered, for the first time the United States would support a UN Resolution in which Gaza's control would be the first concrete step towards the establishment of a Palestinian state. We were starting to get Arab countries agreed to that, and we were very, very close to getting an agreement that would have stopped the war. So at the, you know, I was on the phone every day. Tony Blinken was on the phone as much or more than me. And we were talking to individuals in Israel, in the Arab countries that might deploy, and then we're with the military so that we could organize a force. It wasn't going to be US Boots on the ground, but the United States Central Command was going to organize the force, which is the crucial thing. So this was, you know, the most intense Middle east diplomacy I was ever fully responsible for.
- [15:36]
Jamie Rubin
And it's not known that I haven't heard that stuff.
- [15:39]
Christiane Amanpour
Very little of that is known. The, the part that's not known, and that's really sad, is that essentially it collapsed because we ran out of time. We were, we were. In October, we were very, very close. But then everyone started waiting to see who would win because.
- [15:58]
Jamie Rubin
You mean everybody in the region.
- [16:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Yes. They know our politics so well, believe you me. And they're all waiting to see whether they're going to deal with the Biden type people or they're going to deal with Trump. And those are two very, very different things. So they put it sort of on hold. And when Trump won, essentially our power evaporated.
- [16:17]
Jamie Rubin
But why would Trump not want to follow that up?
- [16:20]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, we were hoping that he would, but in the end, and some of the people worked for him, we briefed because in the end, the Israelis knew we were going to force the Israelis to accept the United States voting for a Palestinian state in the UN United Nations. Donald Trump was never going to do that. So the Israelis suddenly knew they had a different administration that didn't care as much about Gaza, that wasn't going to make Gaza the highest priority. But the trip that isn't known about is that after the election, we lost. Tony Blinken said, well, Jamie, it's time for you to go to the field. And he sent me to the Palestinians and I went and met with them for two long days in the West Bank. And it was really sad. And it's not like I was such a genius. I told them, you need to understand that after we're gone, the next guys are not going to care about the Gaza problem. It's going to be very low on their list. Plus they are going to have an entire transition. So if you want to make any progress now and set something in motion that we can hand off to the Trump people and that we can establish as a realistic chance to end the war, you all need to call for this international force right now. Take the lead. Don't wait for the United States. Just stand up and say, because up till that point, the Palestinians were opposed to an international force and Hamas is still opposed. Some are and some aren't. But that was what I was hoping to get them to do. And to do that, I tried to paint in very stark terms what I thought things would be like under the Trump administration in terms of how quickly they would get to this issue, whether they would care about the Palestinians. And I think half the people in the room got it. And they ended up changing their position overnight and saying, yes, we can support an interfractional force. But then in typical fashion, they started adding all these conditions they wanted to get done right away, all these things that were sitting on the shelf and they over negotiated and did that famous thing. Missed the opportunity to miss an opportunity and it was sad.
- [18:35]
Jamie Rubin
They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity is what Abba Egan So.
- [18:40]
Christiane Amanpour
Look, what I can tell you is that we were close and that as you see this conflict evolve in the coming weeks and months, the closer they get to a solution, it's going to look a lot like that. There's no other obvious solution.
- [18:54]
Jamie Rubin
Really interesting.
- [18:55]
Christiane Amanpour
It's going to be. And the Arab plan that came up a couple weeks ago is very similar, except they want a UN force. There's no way the Israelis are ever going to let the United nations into Gaza to enforce a peace. They don't trust the United Nations. It has to be a, a made in America plan like that.
- [19:15]
Jamie Rubin
Well, let's see what happens to that. But let's go even further back and pull back the curtains because there was a moment, you know, 30 plus years ago when there was Oslo. And I really, really want to read this quote because I hold it very close to my heart. It's essentially the chief Israeli negotiator back then speaking about his counterpart, the chief Palestinian negotiator, when they came to, to shake hands and agree that they had to talk about the Future. And the Israeli quotes the Palestinian as saying, I believe we've arrived at the root of the problem. We have learned that our rejection of you will not bring us freedom. You can see that your control of us won't bring you security. We must live side by side in peace, equality and cooperation. Honestly, it makes me cry even to read it. But we should play, I think, the sound bite that captured the whole world on the White House lawn back in September 1993, when there was one moment of hope.
- [20:23]
Christiane Amanpour
We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today in a loud and a clear voice and.
- [20:34]
Jamie Rubin
Nothing of blood and tears. And Jamie, you were there, right?
- [20:40]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, yeah, I was working for Madeleine Albright. She was in the audience. You know, Clinton was never known, like John Kennedy for, you know, great one line speech. And what he said was that the peace process gave the people of the region the chance for. And here was the phrase, the quiet miracle of a normal life, which none of them have and we all take for granted. You know, there was another phrase that you mentioned, the Israeli negotiator, I always thought the Jordanian crown Prince had another phrase. And unfortunately, phrases is what everybody has since they don't have peace. And so his phrase was, until the Israelis appreciate how much pain and suffering the Palestinian people, innocent civilians, have gone through over the last dozens of years, until they understand that, and until the Palestinians and the Arab countries that support them understand the meaning of the Holocaust and what it means to Jews. You know, take me, I'm 65 years old, I forget this, but 15 years before I was born was the Holocaust. Not that long before I was born, the Holocaust, still for Israelis and forever, I suspect, will be a driving factor in their thinking. So when the Arabs and Palestinians can appreciate that and the Israelis can appreciate the innocent suffering of Palestinians, then you're going to have leaders who, who can do that. And let's remember what we're talking about here. It's taken brave people, Yitzhak Rabin, Anwar Sadat, King Hussein.
- [22:37]
Jamie Rubin
Yes, that's what you need. And it's emotional. So Anwar Sadat was the president of Egypt who flew to Jerusalem. And I remember speaking once to his then foreign minister, who then became the UN Secretary General, Boutros Boutros Gali. And he told me about stepping off the plane in Tel Aviv and he was blinded by the lights of the, the cameras and the paparazzi. And you couldn't hear anything because of the motor drives and everything. Such was the excitement of an Arab head of state landing for the very first time in Israel and then their, their peace. And then King Hussein of Jordan was the next one to make peace. And he was just so incredible as well, with his humanity. And I remember, oh, many ties, many, many times. And I just found him one of the most extraordinary human beings.
- [23:28]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me tell you how far we've come in this. When I think about it, I would sum it up this way. It's got a funny part and a sad part. So you may not remember this, but one day we were in Paris together and I was trying to impress you. And so I was playing, you know, sort of jumping around like Gene Kelly in a movie and I jumped over some boxes and landed and, and broke my ankle basically. And so we had to struggle and I had to get a cast and I had to be on crutches. But that happened to be about two days before Bill Clinton was leading Madeleine ALBRIGHT and a U.S. delegation to Gaza. Think about this. The President of the United States in Gaza with his whole team in a big room filled with the original members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization and they were changing the Palestinian Liberation Charter to remove its demand to destroy Israel. And in the room were several hundred people who were, were part of the groups that were, you know, the, considered the terrorists of the 70s and 80s and early 90s. And they were all cheering Bill Clinton. And then to see myself now working on Gaza 25 years later where, you know, I couldn't go into Gaza without a, you know, a 10 tank motorcade, without being attacked by the locals because I'm an American official. That's how far we've come from Bill Clinton being able to, to cause a standing ovation from a bunch of former Palestinian terrorists to Gaza being hell on earth and Americans no longer being seen as honest brokers by the people in the region.
- [25:12]
Jamie Rubin
You know, I started covering Israel, Palestine in 1990.
- [25:17]
Christiane Amanpour
Come on, tell him about the Arafat phone call. Remember when he hung up on you?
- [25:21]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, yeah, he did. It was a bad moment. Things had gone really belly up and there was a spate of suicide attacks and then Prime Minister Sharon had blockaded the west bank and was actually reinvading the west bank and had broken down the Mukata or the Mutaka, which was his residence. Anyway, of course we got him on the line and I did my due. Why couldn't you stop your people from, you know, doing suicide bombings and this and that and look at what's happening.
- [25:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Why didn't you agree to the Camp David peace talk?
- [25:57]
Jamie Rubin
Well, that was, that was two years before that. And he Told me a number of things. I don't need any, you know, any support and advice from you. I am General Arafat. Do you know who you are talking to? Boom. He was at. At one point I was going to say, no, no, listen, let me ask you. No, no, no, you listen.
- [26:15]
Christiane Amanpour
Boom.
- [26:16]
Jamie Rubin
And he hung up. It was so embarrassing. And I mean, clearly I blushed every shade of red, but hopefully TV didn't allow that to be seen. And in the, you know, in the typical way of producers. Ooh, Christiane, that was great. TV might have been, but didn't really, you know, didn't really get us anywhere in, in the substance. Mr. Arafat, I'm asking you simply a question. Are you able to rein in the violence?
- [26:45]
Christiane Amanpour
You have to be accurately when you are speaking with General A.B. yasser Arafat. Be quiet.
- [26:53]
Jamie Rubin
Mr. Arafat, what did you make of Colin Powell's statement?
- [26:57]
Christiane Amanpour
How you are covering with such questions the spirit activities of the Israeli occupation and the Israeli crimes? Can I ask? Thank you. Bye bye.
- [27:19]
Jamie Rubin
In around 2006, 2005, 2006, this is what shocked me. After what we now knew was the disastrous Iraq war that George W. Bush prosecuted along with Tony Blair in Iraq, they decided that democracy in the Middle east was going to run through somewhere, Gaza, somewhere, I don't know, but they insisted. Now, this is the US Government, Condi Rice, who was Secretary of State, and others insisted to both the Israelis and the Palestinian leadership that these elections had to happen. Both the Israelis and the Palestinian leaders said no, no, no, because Hamas will win and it would be a catastrophe. And sure enough, Hamas won, and it's been a catastrophe ever since. What is wrong with America, Jamie? What is wrong? Why?
- [28:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, that was obviously not a very clever move to put Hamas in charge.
- [28:16]
Jamie Rubin
But they still stand by.
- [28:17]
Christiane Amanpour
I know they.
- [28:17]
Jamie Rubin
No, no, no.
- [28:18]
Christiane Amanpour
But I mean, they claim it the democratic way, but I think democracy is about more than one election. It's about rules. It's about the rule of law, it's about institutions that can enable it. But instead, they made it. Hamas won the election and we' paying the price ever since. But let's also be honest, there were Israelis who liked this because that way you had two separate pieces of the Palestinian territory. Hamas in Gaza, the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. And then when anyone wanted to propose peace talks, Bibi Netanyahu was mostly prime minister during all the subsequent years, would say, oh, who's. Who do you talk to? There's two separate leaderships. We can't make peace with no partner for peace. No Partner for peace. So it was obviously in somebody's interest, but it wasn't in the world's interest and it clearly wasn't in the Palestinians interest. Look at what they're suffering now.
- [29:10]
Jamie Rubin
And not in the Israeli interest, but.
- [29:12]
Christiane Amanpour
In the interest perhaps of some Israelis.
- [29:14]
Jamie Rubin
Well, they are having their say now again, we have to say who they are because your administration sanctioned, you know, put some sanctions around these very far right people. Ben GVIR Smotrich I mean, there are some very, very important documentaries that have been done by Israeli filmmakers where they say, you know, the rule breakers will end up being the rule makers, those who want to, you know, defy the international order, for instance, against settlements and using the occupied west bank as an eventual Palestinian state or part of it. They didn't want that. So, Jamie, now all these decades later with that piece of hope far, far distant and the death of Rabin, in the final part of our conversation, we'll talk about President Trump and whether there is any chance that he could eventually be the man to broker a longer term deal between Israel and Gaza. We discussed it earlier on. You weren't that optimistic. But there may be things that make it attractive and make it necessary. Jamie, we're back. We started by asking whether Trump could be the man the administration to sort this out once and for all. What was it that made Oslo work for a period of time? It wasn't a final settlement. It didn't actually talk about a Palestinian state. But there was a, a lot of hope. And people who actually drew it up believe that it is the only blueprint that plus the Clinton parameters that exist for any lasting peace.
- [31:03]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, what made Oslo work was that the leaders of the two parties secretly started talking to each other. That there was a motivation. And in the end, the only excuse that government officials like me and leaders today have for why we're not solving this problem is because those leaders don't seem to feel that way. The people who've been elected into office in Israel and the people who've managed to be in power in the Palestinian territories are not someone who is prepared to sneak off to Oslo and meet with their counterparts. I mean, look, there's a lot of problems here that is in defining the issue. I will give you one example of where I thought the Biden administration was off base. Fortunately, it was before I got there, so I can be more explicit. Six to nine months before the October 7 attacks, our individual most responsible for the policies of the Middle east, an NSC official named Brett McGurk, gave an entire speech at one of the think tanks, and he labeled it the Middle east doctrine. And it talked about the Gulf states, it talked about the future possibility of peace with Saudi Arabia, it talked about what we were going to do about Iran and this and that. An entire speech labeled the Middle east doctrine. The word Palestinians was not in the speech.
- [32:34]
Jamie Rubin
It actually is very bothersome that. And of course, we all remember because we played the endless sound bite of then National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan saying the Middle east has been quieter than it has in, I think he said, decades. But anyway, certainly, and that's based on.
- [32:48]
Christiane Amanpour
This idea that developed over a decade or more that somehow you could take the Palestinian issue and move it aside, that we can work on the Gulf, we can work on democracy in the Arab Spring, we can work on fixing Iraq, we can fight terrorism, and the Palestinian Israeli issue can be moved to the side so we don't even need to mention it.
- [33:09]
Jamie Rubin
And then the whole issue is, I mean, look, look, we cannot get away with saying that. Even under Oslo, even under the, you know, the Clinton administration, you all allowed settlements to continue on the west bank, and that was a very big obstacle to peace. Every single secretary of state, every single American president would call that obstacles to peace, but you all allowed it. And look where we are now. Even the west bank is under threat of being conquered, annexed, if you take the words of those who have that end goal. And certainly more Palestinians have been moved and displaced from the west bank than since the 1967 war. I mean, it is remarkable, just in this last 18 months, let me tell.
- [33:49]
Christiane Amanpour
You what the bottom line is. I've lived in Europe, I've lived in the, in, been around the world. Everyone who looks at this issue who's critical of the United States wants us to do something we're never going to do. They want us to threaten Israel with a full cutoff of weapons or sanctions or otherwise exert all of the pressure the United States could plausibly exert on the Israelis to force them to do something they don't want to do. That isn't going to happen and people should stop spending any time expecting it.
- [34:25]
Jamie Rubin
By the way, I wasn't going to ask that question. I'm interested.
- [34:29]
Christiane Amanpour
I know that's what you used to tell me, but let me get at this, because this is the heart of the issue. Clinton succeeded because he had the support of Israelis and Palestinians. There's been no other president before or since who had that. And then we had a moment in history when it really was possible to make peace, when Barak did offer to share Jerusalem. He did offer to return all of functionally the west bank and Gaza with a Palestinian state. And Arafat said no. And that's what we have to understand is until the American president and the Israeli leadership have that kind of relationship or the Israeli people, you know, they are a hyper democracy. If they change their mind on the ground, they can put these people out of office really quickly. Let's put it this way. Many people thought that after October 7, no government could survive because that was the biggest blunder in the history of national defense.
- [35:27]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, I mean, look, I went at. That was my first proper sit down interview with Arafat right after the collapse of camp David in September 2000. And he was really mad. I still haven't. Mad at me for the questions. I still haven't gotten to the bottom of actually why he said no. I think they. I really think he thought he was going to be assassinated. I think he looked at, you know, Anwar Sadat and he looked at this and that. I don't know. But I don't know why he said no. But it was a total missed opportunity.
- [35:55]
Christiane Amanpour
And all the people around him, every single one of the people around him have said that he should have agreed. And then he himself, six months later said, oh, now I agree.
- [36:05]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah. And it was too late because everybody who agreed with him were out of power.
- [36:09]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, that doesn't excuse Israel's behavior ever since, but it tells you what the ingredients are that you need if you're going to have a peace process. And my sort of snapshot ingredient is one I mentioned earlier. Can you close your eyes and see the three leaders on the White House lawn? Can you picture Donald Trump, a Palestinian leader, and Bibi Netanyahu in a joint holding their hands up? I can't.
- [36:37]
Jamie Rubin
Do you think that because they're both transactional, Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump could come to some kind of way out of this?
- [36:46]
Christiane Amanpour
I don't.
- [36:46]
Jamie Rubin
What is their relationship? What's their relationship?
- [36:50]
Christiane Amanpour
Their personal relationship is absolutely fine. I'm sure they get along fine. But remember, Trump adopts the full Israeli position. He moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. He said, we can move all the people of Gaza out of Gaza. Netanyahu couldn't believe how lucky he was. So he's never going to put pressure on Netanyahu to solve the Palestinian problem. He may put some pressure on him for perhaps the Iranian nuclear where he'd like to avoid a war. And Netanyahu would like to get more out of a deal than Trump may get. But on the Palestine Palestinian issue, the one we're talking about, there's no substantive difference between the people that Trump has hired and Trump and Netanyahu and his government.
- [37:35]
Jamie Rubin
Okay, you just raised Iran. There are talks going on between the Iranians and the Americans to get back into a nuclear deal. But it seems it's already coming across a problem because the Iranians have said our entire right to enrich is non negotiable and. And the Trump administration has changed its position. Having said that, they wouldn't come down on the entire program just on no nuclear bomb, no nuclear weapon. So what's going on? Why has Trump changed his mind on that?
- [38:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, we're gonna, I'm sure, have a time to talk about the problem in an entire episode. And you and I have some interesting stories.
- [38:15]
Jamie Rubin
We do, actually, which we've never told. We've never told. I don't wanna remember anything.
- [38:21]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, maybe we will on that episode.
- [38:22]
Jamie Rubin
Maybe. Maybe. Do you know what? That is the end of this episode. We'll do a lot more storytelling next time. See you, Jamie.
- [38:33]
Christiane Amanpour
Take care. We'll see you, X.
- [38:36]
Jamie Rubin
We managed. We talk civilly. Thank you for listening to the first episode of our podcast, Christian Amanpour presents the X Files. Don't miss our first bonus episode, which be out on Thursday. Jamie and I will be doing a Q and A with each other and we'll be back with another full episode next Tuesday. Listen to Christian Amanpour presents the X Files on Global Player. You can download it at the App Store or go to globalplayer.com you're struggling to hear me.
- [39:10]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, you're not coming in very well at all.
- [39:12]
Jamie Rubin
Oh, shit.
- [39:13]
Christiane Amanpour
Christian, Is Darius there doing anything?
- [39:16]
Jamie Rubin
I mean, he could be. What should I tell him? He's upstairs.
- [39:18]
Christiane Amanpour
Tell our kid to stop with our goddamn podcast. This is a Global Player original podcast.