Will Trump sacrifice Ukraine to make a deal with Putin?

Summary

Summary of Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files – Episode: "Will Trump Sacrifice Ukraine to Make a Deal with Putin?"

Release Date: August 12, 2025

In this piercing episode of "Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files," world-renowned journalist Christiane Amanpour and her ex-husband Jamie Rubin, a former US State Department official and seasoned CNN foreign correspondent, delve into some of today's most pressing global crises. The conversation navigates through complex geopolitical landscapes, examining the Israel-Gaza conflict, US-Russia relations, and drawing critical lessons from the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.

---

1. The Israel-Gaza Conflict and Netanyahu's Strategy

The episode opens with a harrowing account of the tragic loss of five Al Jazeera journalists killed during an Israeli bombing near Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza (00:05). Amanpour and Rubin dissect Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's controversial decision to attempt a full occupation of Gaza, despite warnings from military officials and former leaders about the potential peril to hostages and the impossibility of eradicating Hamas entirely.

• Rubin states: "The famine is Netanyahu and the Israeli government's fault. The hostages aren't going to come home under this plan, and yet there's a solution in front of him." (05:20)

Amanpour criticizes the political motivations behind Netanyahu's actions, suggesting that the move serves more to preserve Netanyahu's grip on power than to achieve any strategic military objective. They discuss the implications of reoccupying Gaza, emphasizing that such a move would likely derail any progress toward a two-state solution, which Amanpour advocates as a necessary step for lasting peace.

• Amanpour remarks: "The Abraham Accords, President Trump's great success... is not going to happen if Israel reoccupies Gaza." (05:20)

2. US-Russia Relations and the Trump-Putin Summit

Shifting focus to the ongoing Ukraine crisis, Amanpour and Rubin explore the anticipated meeting between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin in Alaska. They scrutinize Trump's potential motivations and the realistic outcomes of such a summit, particularly concerning territorial negotiations over Ukraine.

• Rubin questions: "Could Trump get the measure of Putin on behalf of the allies... Could there be an interim step positive that comes out of an Alaska summit?" (17:45)

Amanpour expresses skepticism about the efficacy of Trump's diplomatic approach, highlighting Putin's steadfastness in his territorial ambitions despite previous offers that could have halted further aggression. The hosts analyze the broader implications for European security and the morale of Ukrainian resistance.

• Amanpour advises: "The Ukrainians won't let it happen. The Europeans won't let it happen." (15:10)

3. Afghanistan: A Cautionary Tale of Mismanaged Withdrawal

A substantial portion of the discussion is dedicated to Afghanistan, reflecting on the chaotic U.S. withdrawal four years after the exit. The hosts reminisce about the initial invasion post-9/11, the early successes in dismantling the Taliban and promoting women's rights, and the subsequent derailment of nation-building efforts.

• Rubin recounts: "We were getting flown in to watch the liberation of Kabul... But then we moved all the crucial forces out... We never finished the job by stabilizing the country." (24:26)

They critically assess the strategic missteps, including the abrupt shift of military focus to Iraq under George Bush, the insufficient commitment to long-term stability, and the pervasive corruption that undermined progress. Amanpour emphasizes the human cost, particularly for Afghan women, and the cascading humanitarian crises resulting from halted aid and the Taliban's resurgence.

• Amanpour laments: "Hunger, life expectancy, suicide amongst women and girls. It's awful." (43:22)

The conversation highlights the failure to balance the desire to end a "forever war" with the imperative to protect and sustain the fragile gains in Afghanistan, ultimately leading to a devastating collapse.

4. The Ripple Effects on Global Geopolitics

Connecting the dots between Afghanistan and current geopolitical tensions, Amanpour and Rubin debate whether the U.S. withdrawal influenced Putin's decision to invade Ukraine. While acknowledging that such foreign policy actions send global signals, Rubin argues that attributing Putin's aggression solely to the Afghan exit is "false, unjustified, unprovable" (45:05).

They explore how American actions impact global perceptions of U.S. commitment, potentially emboldening other autocrats. However, Amanpour contends that Putin's longstanding ambitions towards Ukraine are rooted in deeper historical and strategic motivations beyond the Afghan experience.

5. Reflections on American Exceptionalism and Future Strategies

The hosts critique the notion of American exceptionalism, especially in light of recent diplomatic and military failures. They question the "indispensable nation" narrative, citing Trump’s tariff wars and harsh diplomacy as undermining America's standing and effectiveness on the global stage.

• Amanpour asserts: "Indispensable nation is very tough to argue when Donald Trump has overthrown all the premises of America that made us special." (43:22)

In concluding their discussion, Amanpour and Rubin emphasize the need for strategic foresight and the abandonment of short-term fixes in favor of sustainable, humane policies. They caution against capitulation in conflicts like Ukraine and urge for political resolutions that respect democratic aspirations and human rights.

6. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Amanpour and Rubin reflecting on the intertwined nature of these global issues and the importance of learning from past mistakes to navigate current and future crises effectively. They underscore the urgency of diplomatic engagement and the necessity of maintaining global alliances to uphold international stability.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jamie Rubin ([00:05]): "Five Al Jazeera journalists have been killed in an Israeli bombing of a tent area that they were housed in around Al Shifa Hospital."

• Christiane Amanpour ([03:31]): "The Abraham Accords... is only a two state solution that the world will accept."

• Christiane Amanpour ([05:20]): "Only explanation I can think of is politics."

• Jamie Rubin ([14:46]): "Trump thinks he's a grand bargainer of territory with Putin..."

• Christiane Amanpour ([15:10]): "The Ukrainians won't let it happen."

• Jamie Rubin ([24:26]): "The Taliban were overthrown... But then the US shifted focus to Iraq."

• Christiane Amanpour ([43:22]): "Indispensable nation is very tough to argue when Donald Trump has overthrown all the premises of America that made us special."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Israel-Gaza Conflict: Netanyahu's aggressive strategies risk further destabilization and entrenchment of hostilities, undermining prospects for peace.

• US-Russia Relations: The Trump-Putin summit may lack the diplomatic finesse needed to address Ukraine's sovereignty, potentially weakening global responses to aggression.

• Afghanistan Withdrawal: The chaotic exit serves as a stark lesson in the consequences of mismanaged military withdrawals and the importance of sustained nation-building efforts.

• Global Implications: American foreign policy decisions have far-reaching impacts, influencing global power dynamics and the behavior of authoritarian regimes.

• Future Strategies: Emphasizing the need for thoughtful, long-term diplomatic strategies over short-term political gains to ensure global stability and uphold democratic values.

This episode offers a sobering analysis of current international crises, drawing from extensive experience to provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges and potential pathways forward in an increasingly unpredictable world.

<a name="timestamp"></a>

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

This is a Global Player original podcast.

[Jamie Rubin]

So I think many of us, certainly in my business, woke up absolutely disgusted and horrified, Jamie, at the news that five Al Jazeera journalists have been killed in an Israeli bombing of a tent area that they were housed in around Al Shifa Hospital. Hi everybody. A lot to discuss in today's show. We've got active events happening between Israel and Gaza and between the United States and Russia, Trump and Putin. And then we're going to back in to the idea of diplomacy and what we might expect if it's just a Trump, Putin diplomacy. And we have a case study to go back to and both of us have so much experience there, and that is Afghanistan almost exactly four years on from when the west withdrew chaotically. We look at the evacuation that went so badly wrong and we look at essentially the US Cutting Afghanistan off at the knees since removing all of usaid. And all the lessons learned from Afghanistan. Well, not all of them because it goes back decades, but at least the relevant ones. Hello everyone and welcome to the X Files with me, Christiane Amanpour.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And me, Jamie Rubin. I'm a two time State Department official under Presidents Clinton and Biden and I.

[Jamie Rubin]

Am a longtime foreign correspondent for cnn. Of course, I spend a lot of time in Afghanistan and in UKRA and in Israel and in Gaza over the years. And if you haven't already been following, make sure you follow our feed on Global Player or wherever you get the podcast so you never miss an episode. Let's get started. As you know, just before the weekend the Israelis decided that they were going to take over all of Gaza, starting with Gaza City, where they're not really occupying at this point in order to, I don't know what, do what they've said that they're going to do, which people think they've already done, and that is neutralize Hamas and try to get the hostages back. But Jamie, it's opened a massive rift with the idf, no less Benjamin Netanyahu's hand picked Chief of Staff General Zamir. And he has said this is dangerous, it could be a trap and it could get the hostages killed. And even former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said it could get the hostages killed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes, it's incomprehensible except for the politics of Benjamin Netanyahu, but on substantive grounds, the hostages could get killed. The Israelis have tried to occupy Gaza before. That's why they left, because it's untenable. And what's terrible about this, not only is it a disaster for the Israeli military Trying to do something they can't do. They can't wipe out every single Hamas person. That's madness. A year ago, they eliminated Hamas's capability to launch any sort of serious attack. And now, just as the Palestinian Authority and the Arab community and the world is ready to move to end this war and deploy a force to make it possible for the Israelis to leave, now suddenly the Israelis say they're going to take it all over and still maybe someday down the road give it over to the Arabs. That's not going to happen if Israel reoccupies Gaza.

[Jamie Rubin]

So why do you think then Netanyahu is taking this radical step? Look, all, as you say, all of last week was filled with, oh my gosh, a tipping point. You know, you've got the starvation which everybody in the entire world is furious about and wants to alleviate as the first order of priority. Then you had the Arab states, you know, in that UN meeting, all of them sign up to Hamas, demilitarizing, laying down their arms, getting out of governance, and this idea of a third party Palestinian Authority, plus, in other words, helped by a security force to take over Gaza. Now that's just gone out the window. Is it because he just doesn't want anything, A, to topple his government, but B, to give any space or idea to a Palestinian state as long as he's alive?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, that may be. There are always people who think Bibi Netanyahu is waiting for the right moment to strike a deal. I've kind of given up on that. But it is the right moment to strike a deal. He's got a Trump administration that will support him in deploying a force with Central Command running it. He's got Arab countries finally saying they're willing to do it. And crucially, he's got the Palestinian Authority asking for the first time for an international force to come into Gaza. That's what Secretary Blinken asked me to do last fall, to travel to the, to west bank and get the Palestinians to agree to that. They've now done it. And they don't even demand that it be a UN Blue hamleted force, the kind the Israelis hate. It could just be a coalition of the willing. This is a solvable problem. The famine is Netanyahu and the Israeli government's fault. The hostages aren't going to come home under this plan, and yet there's a solution in front of him. And only explanation I can think of is politics.

[Jamie Rubin]

And you mentioned the West Bank. It is getting daily worse there because all of these right wingers, extreme Nationalists also, I want to throw every qualifier in there because it is definitely not the majority of politics. It's a far right wing that is in charge as, as, as I think it was. Angela Merkel, the former chancellor of Germany and obviously a firm and committed Israeli ally, said, we are living in a world where the rule breakers are making the rules, whether it's Putin in Russia and Europe or whether it's the far right extremists who prop up the Israeli government making the rules. So cut to right now. And there are just more and more reports about how the Palestinian Authority on the west bank is being neutralized by the settlers, by the idf, by the police, and how just every single day you hear stories and you hear them saying, the settlers, our objective is to get the Palestinians to move. And they think, why not Palestinians should, It's not their land and why would they want to stay here if we don't want them? And daily now we're having homes and villages and olive groves destroyed, belonging to the Palestinians. So it does, Jamie, seem like a concerted effort to actually expel them all and annex both the west bank and Gaza. Am I being extreme?

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're not being extreme. That's what the right wing in Israel wants, but it's not going to happen. Look, the Abraham Accords, President Trump's great success in his first term was premised on the idea that Israel can't annex the West Bank. And the irony here is the extremists in Israel are helping the Hamas. They're helping the extremists in all over the world because the extremists are building each other up. And instead there's this magic moment where Israel can be recognized by its neighbors if it would just do what all of its security advisors know is the right thing to do. End the war, get the hostages home, put in an Arab force and get Saudi recognition. End the war. Last point I gotta make, because Netanyahu keeps falsely claiming that a Palestinian state is a victory for Hamas. Hamas is against a Palestinian state side by side with Israel. They want one state. So a path to a Palestinian state would be a defeat for Hamas, a victory for Israel and a victory for the world. And allow what Bill Clinton said, and I like to repeat the quiet miracle of a normal life for the people who are living there.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, it's interesting that you keep saying that about Hamas and what it would mean, the consequence of a two state solution, because somehow it's gotta be pounded into somebody's brain because the narrative is just so bad and the Basically the momentum now is away from a two state solution. I mean, it's really tragic. You know, just a quickie because I remember it. You know, you said that Trump's Abraham Accords was premised on no annexation, but you remember it was very weirdly worded and actually there was a big explosion of concern by the Palestinians, by the Arabs who just signed on that Israel was given carte blanche to annex. Remember, Trump was playing around with the idea that annexation was an occupation, was not against international. And I remember quickly, we got him on quickly. Jared Kushner needed to come on my show and quickly clarify that the United States does not stand for annexation and the Arab states would not be able to continue with the Abraham Accords if that was in the offing. I mean, it seems like so long ago, but honestly now it seems all of the most extreme wishes seem to be coming true. And I have to say I'm just so heartbroken and upset and angry at the constant killing of journalists inside Gaza. It's not sustainable anymore. I mean, how can they keep doing it and nobody stands up and how can people still starve and there's not some massive immediate humanitarian intervention? I don't understand this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, me neither. At least President Trump has acknowledged that the starvation is real. That gave us some agree, but it's start to by saying they can't fake that it's real. That's the tragedy here. All of these things are fixable and fixable quickly if the the Israeli government finally is pressured into doing the right thing. The war has gone on for so long, the hostages are getting weaker and weaker and it's up to Israeli politics to build the pressure with some help from Trump. And you say the Palestinian state looks farther away. That's true. And substantively. But meanwhile the world is coalescing around a recognition of a Palestinian state. And as much as I hate some things that are critical of Israel in international bodies, on this one I think I support it. It's time for Israel to know that it's only a two state solution that the world will accept.

[Jamie Rubin]

And let's not forget that the Abraham Accords were in my opinion, short sighted and somewhat arrogant and unrealistically created with look into the key problem, which is the Israeli Palestinian problem. People who want to look at a silver lining might say, well Israel will go in and remember by the way, Trump who said that there was starvation, then followed up by saying, well, I don't know about Israel taking over Gaza. It's up to them. So you know, he's back and forth on all of this. Could it go in? Could it secure some massive humanitarian capacity? I don't know. I'm just reaching for straws here. Could it, I don't know, mop up the remnants of Hamas, get the hostages out, and then there's no way, there's.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No way they can achieve their false claim of the extreme Smotrich and Ben gvir, that you get to kill every last member of Hamas. It's not going to happen. They killed Hamas's military capability. They go in, they're going to face the same problems they faced last time, which led Ariel Sharon, the most extreme right military man in Israel's history, who pulled out of Gaza because it doesn't make any sense. They're going to come to that conclusion. Unfortunately, it's going to take more time than it should.

[Jamie Rubin]

Shall we move on? Because there's many moving parts in the Israel, Gaza crisis and the tragedy of the starvation and the killing of journalists. And by the way, we're not allowed in. Just so that we get that straight, the international journalists and Israeli journalists are not allowed to go in.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And they don't want the world to know what's going on, obviously.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah. And killing the messenger and trying to silence the truth. You're absolutely right. Ukraine, yes. Everybody knows that Trump is going to meet Putin in Alaska. That's been announced. What we also know is this is a meeting requested by President Putin. This is a meeting that they suggested, I don't know who suggested that it should take place in Alaska, which, yes, it's the United States, but yes, it also used to be Russian territory. I mean, there's just so much around this whole idea that plays into Putin's hands and in my opinion, gives him a pretty strong starting point. Can I just ask you whether you think. Because I know what I think on this, Trump is going to see the light, or will he get some concessions out of Putin?

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, not really. Look, Putin has played this as well as he could up till now, except that he's rejected the best deal he's ever going to be offered, which is a freeze in place, the US Recognizes Crimea and Ukraine's not in NATO. He rejected that several weeks ago. Now he's playing around with some way of getting more territory than he's even won on the battlefield. That's not going to happen. Putin finally realized he has to meet with Trump because the pressure was building. Trump was going to put sanctions on on him. He's put sanctions on India, which is buying Russian oil. That's going to affect Russia. He realized that he had to do something. And he thinks he can play games with Trump. And unfortunately, a summit with Trump not really knowing the facts, not knowing the details, and certainly not having a deep, profound sympathy for Zelensky, who is the person whose phone call caused him to be impeached. Remember, that's why he's always got mixed views on Zelensky. This isn't a good thing for the Ukrainians, but it's good that Putin finally realized is he's got to stop just saying no, no, no, no. Yet, yet, yet.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah. Look, let's play a little bit of the latest Trump sound on what they might achieve, and particularly around territory, because that, as you said, is creating, you know, a lot of conniptions, obviously, in Ukraine, but also in Europe. Europe, of course, terrified and angry that they're going to be excluded from any of this. And of course, this is in their backyard. And the mantra of all United States and its allies over the last, you know, three plus years of this war has been nothing about Ukraine. Without Ukraine, it's very complicated.

[Donald Trump]

But we're going to get some back. We're going to get some, some switched. There'll be some swapping of territories to the betterment of both.

[Jamie Rubin]

What swap? What's Ukraine going to get back? We know what Russia wants. All of Crimea, all of the Donbass, even bits of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, which they, you know, don't. They don't occupy all of that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Trump thinks he's a grand bargainer of territory with Putin, but what he hasn't fully accepted is that the world isn't a place where two big leaders can sit down and throw around territory without letting the people who live there, the democracy of Ukraine, they're going to decide whether they keep fighting. All we want out of Putin at this point is for see whether Trump can get him to stop fighting, to stop attacking with hundreds of thousands of troops grinding out inch after inch. That's the goal. Because there's no way the Ukrainians are going to start swapping territory. They may tolerate the United States accepting certain, you know, Russian one territory as frozen or, you know, not Ukraine's anymore. But this is not going to yield Russia succeeding in gobbling up Ukraine. It's not going to happen. The Ukrainians won't let it happen. The Europeans won't let it happen. And Trump, at least compared early days, has started to understand that this is Putin's war, Putin's decisions. And it's only Putin who can change the reality.

[Jamie Rubin]

So let's not forget that under Trump 2.0, Zelenskyy again accepted the premise of a ceasefire with all the conditions that Trump laid down. And he's accepted ceasefire, you know, before under, when Biden was president. And it's always been Putin who has not accepted a ceasefire and constantly talks about. About underlying conditions and, you know, goes back, you know, centuries or at least decades in history. I heard from a British peer what we heard on the radio, who's got Ukrainian origin, that he. He was there in Kiev recently when all this was. Was breaking, and he said, there's no way that Ukraine's going to accept this. And Ukraine cannot be forced into accepting something that's so clearly to its detriment, and. And Europe can't be forced into accepting something that's so clearly detrimental. But could Trump, because it looks like, and who knows what'll happen by Friday after this episode drops, that it's just Trump and Putin, it doesn't look like Zelenskyy's gonna be part of any initial meeting. Could Trump get the measure of Putin on behalf of the allies, on behalf of the US on behalf of Ukraine? Could he get the first step anyway, which is a ceasefire, because Zelenskyy's already agreed to it, and then afterwards there'd be a peace agreement. In other words, could there be an interim step positive that comes out of an Alaska summit?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes, that could happen. That's what's been on the table for weeks, if not months. The Ukrainians finally figured out they had to tell Trump they'd stop fighting. Now, that's fair. The fighting is Russia attacking them every day. It's up to Putin to stop the fighting. That might be the best we can possibly hope for, some ceasefire in place in which Trump makes certain promises about what the United States will accept in terms of territory, but he's not going to be able to shove this down the Ukrainian people's throat. They're a democracy. It's not even up to Zelensky. It's up to the people of Ukraine. They're the ones fighting and dying. They're the ones who are not going to submit to Russia.

[Jamie Rubin]

And it'd be really interesting to see if Trump is. Trump realizes, I'm sure his people will tell him that all those minerals he wants and he got Ukraine to hand over are in that area that Russia wants. So that's going to be super interesting how he resolves that. But look, I think it's important because we said that we're going to go on and look at Afghanistan as a cautionary tale. So let us end this segment with a sort of tease to what Trump did in 2020 in terms of negotiating with the Taliban and giving essentially Afghanistan back to the Taliban, and then Biden engineering his negotiation in a very chaotic way. So this is a little bit of an Excerpt from the 2024 presidential campaign Debates between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris.

[Kamala Harris]

Donald Trump, when he was president, negotiated one of the weakest deals you can imagine. He calls himself a deal maker. Even his national security adviser said it was a weak, terrible deal. And here's how it went down. He bypassed the Afghan government. He negotiated directly with a terrorist organization called the Taliban. The negotiation involved the Taliban getting 5,000 terrorists. Taliban terrorists released. And get this. No, get this. And the president at the time invited the Taliban to Camp David.

[Donald Trump]

If you take a look at that period of time, the Taliban was killing our soldiers, a lot of them with snipers. And I got involved with the Taliban because the Taliban was doing the killing. That's the fighting force within Afghanistan. They don't bother doing that because, you know, they deal with the wrong people all the time. But I got involved, and Abdul is the head of the Taliban. He is still the head of the Taliban. And I told Abdul, don't do it anymore. You do it anymore, you're going to have problems. And he said, why do you send me a picture of my house? I said, you're going to have to figure that out, Abdul. And for 18 months, we had nobody killed. We did have an agreement negotiated by Mike Pompeo. It was a very good agreement. The reason it was good, it was we were getting out. We would have been out faster than them, but we wouldn't have lost the soldiers. We wouldn't have left many Americans behind, and we wouldn't have left. We wouldn't have left $85 billion worth of brand new, beautiful military equipment behind. And just to finish, they blew it.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, pretty vigorous. But, Jamie, you were laughing and I was laughing. Do you know any Abdul who's the head of the Taliban? Definitely not right now. So I don't know. I don't even remember an Abdul who was head of any negotiating. But let's just rewrap.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Abdullah was the foreign minister of the Afghanistan government.

[Jamie Rubin]

Foreign minister backed by the US who, as you remember, the US did not negotiate with the actual Afghan government backed by the United States itself. And certainly no women were in the negotiating team. And a huge result of America's removal of Taliban and al Qaeda. After 911 was really the liberation of the women and the moving Afghanistan towards a more normal place in history.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But remind me, take a break before we do that.

[Jamie Rubin]

Oh, that's right. I thought we were in part two. Yeah, we're taking a break.

[Advertisement]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699. Annabelle Bay Anabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink and feel or a supportive memory. Memory foam blend plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality. For price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Jamie Rubin]

So we're coming back. I mean, you know, we, we lingered a little before the break because I'd forgotten we need to go to a break, but here we are back again. Kamala Harris said some stuff. She didn't get elected. Trump made some claims that were a little exaggerated. They do a lot of exaggeration around numbers and things. The truth of the matter is that when they were negotiating the end of US forces in Afghanistan, it was around the time that the lowest number of US forces were being killed and injured. Almost none of for the period a year or more before the handover, before the negotiations even started, much less the handover. And there was always an idea to keep a small deterrent force at Bagram, north of Kabul. It was an air base all kitted out with all the American military hardware and intel bases and all the rest of it. And it could have had a really important effect. Anyway, that all went to hell. Just let's rewind to 911 and just Jamie, as quick as you can with the precis. This was known as the just war because the Taliban had housed and accommodated Al Qaeda Bin Laden who did 911 and therefore it was viewed as a just war. NATO enacted its Article 5 for the very, very first time. An attack on one is an attack on all. And I believe it had a UN mandate as well. That initial after 9, 11. Okay, so then what happened?

[Christiane Amanpour]

This was a completely legitimate, justified war and it was even conducted extremely well in the early phases. The Taliban were overthrown, the Al Qaeda people were sent packing and fleeing. You were able to get flown in to watch the liberation of Kabul. I remember watching you from the screen in London while you were doing it. It was dramatic, it was really, really important with minimal involvement of the large scale US military. And then what happened was just as success was achieved in overthrowing the Taliban and bringing some dramatic change to Afghanistan, including the freedom of women and the freedom of the people there, George Bush told his commander Tommy Franks to start focusing on Iraq. And instead of finishing the job, all the crucial forces were moved out of Afghanistan and relocated to Iraq. We never killed Bin Laden then and we never finished the job by stabilizing the country. And what the great, great tragedy. And we'll get to this in a minute because early on it was Joe Biden who said we don't need to do nation building, we don't need to remake the country. We just need to give them a chance and stop the terrorism with a small deployment that's only focused on counterterrorism. But Obama and the rest of the government insisted on a large deployment. And we got into this 20 year nation building project that just didn't work.

[Jamie Rubin]

You know, it didn't work, but so much of it did work. And in my opinion it didn't work because it went astray. As you say, they moved all their experts, literally military and civil society, civil servants, aid, community, all the rest of it, all the experts who were really beginning to slowly build up, not a Western style Jeffersonian democracy, but something that was at least participatory and where many, many more of the people had rights than before. And it really did go astray because they moved on and they just left it as if it was somehow organically going to take care of itself. And then the US became a killing force. It would, you know, it's airstrikes on villages. And do you remember how many wedding parties were blown up and how many civilians, civilians were killed? Because they said, oh, we were told that's the Taliban. We thought this, we thought that these were militants. It was, it was really, it was really terrifying, honestly. Just remembering I was flown in by the so called Northern Alliance. They were the Ahmad Shah Massoud, the great lion of Pansha who helped defeat Soviet communism in the N in the late 1980s. He had been assassinated just before 9, 11. It was kind of a murder of the plan.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It was part of the plan.

[Jamie Rubin]

But his people, Dr. Abdullah and many others, were still the opposition. And they flew me in with my team over the Hindu Kush. We went to Tajikistan. We got on this. Honestly, I didn't know whether we were going to make it. Literally a helicopter that hovered maybe this. This far above the mountains. It was so small, like a foot.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But your reporting when you landed was truly dramatic.

[Jamie Rubin]

It was amazing. But listen to this. We landed in the dark outside of Kabul, which turned out to be a minefield in the dark, no lights. We luckily didn't know, I mean, God forbid that we didn't know that it was a minefield. And we took our stuff and scrambled out of the way of the helicopter. And then, you know, our teams had picked us up our Afghan teams and taken us to Kabul to report what was then the liberation of Kabul. But the next day, people were injured trying to do the same route because it was a minefield. So I've been covering the, you know, the Taliban since 1996. And this was an amazing moment to see so many Afghans just jumping for joy, whether in the villages or in Kabul or in Herat. And the women who. Girls who went back to school. People think maybe this was some sort of vanity project by the west, some kind of charity project. This was the nation that suddenly became empowered, and, boy, did they. And the girls were so impressive and really, really brilliant. And the women. And the women who went into Parliament and who stood for election, and it was just transformational. And it's so very, very sad.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. And I know there's endless discussion about this, but being a political foreign policy person, I have to bring up the following. There is a very powerful tension in the Democratic Party, particularly between those who want to achieve really, really important human rights objectives. Hillary Clinton famously said, women's rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights. And that was what was one of the most dramatic things about Afghanistan, giving women their human rights. But then the very same people who cared the most about that, others cared about it, but those who cared the most about it got caught up in this phrase, a forever war. And we got to stop this forever war. And it was a long war, 20 years. But they were the ones who wanted the war to end, but still wanted us to somehow protect women there. You can't do both. It was the good government of Afghanistan, the government that we were supporting over those 20 years, that cared about women, that gave them their freedom, that gave them their rights, that gave them their opportunities. And so, so many, many, many democratic leaders who wanted those women's rights were also the ones who declared it a forever war and wanted to get out and pressured us to get out. And Trump picked up on that and got us out.

[Jamie Rubin]

And Biden, do you remember, even in, I believe it was 2020 in the presidential campaign, said something, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, I'm not the president of the Afghan Women and Children. I'm the president of the States, United United States. And we need to get the U.S. troops out. I remember that very, very clearly. But, you know, you say the good Afghan government. Yes, it's all relative. They were people who, at least on paper, committed to a participatory democracy, to a judiciary, to parliament, to women's rights, to, you know, human rights and all the rest of it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But not perfectly, by any means.

[Jamie Rubin]

No. And again, the, you know, perfect was the enemy of the good. But they had a lot to account for. And without naming names, there was so much corrupt, so much collusion and corruption that the, you know, what's it called.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hundreds of billions of dollars waste the American.

[Jamie Rubin]

What's it called, the Government Accounting Office? Gao. Yeah. Coming up with John Sopco was his name. I remember he was the man in charge. And his emails would come into our inboxes regularly about the amount of money that was being spent and getting lost. But there had to have been some way to. To take hold and control this because so much of the other stuff was worth it. I mean, I went to report on their version, like it was called American Idol or whatever they call it. You know, it was called Afghan Star. This is impossible to even contemplate now. And you've got these old men in Kandahar, Mullah Omar types who will not abide the notion that there can be anything other than an absolutist, literally medieval and even before medieval Islamic interpretation and women have zero rights whatsoever. But I will say, you know, Even under Taliban 1.0, when I covered underground schools and, you know, girls being taught by.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Even when they took you hostage in the Taliban, Remember that? I was in the government with. That happened. I got this call. You're what? You're. I think we weren't married. Your. Your fiance has been taking hostage.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, hostage or prisoner or something. But anyway, I remember we were in some, Some, you know, some prison, but we got. Some calls were made and we got. We got released. But we were the eu. The EU Foreign Policy chief, I think. Emma. Emma, Bonino, Emma Bonino, trying to bring aid to these crazy people. This was before 9, 11. Yes, obviously. But I think there was a lot of promise. I really do. And let's face it, Afghanistan is rich in minerals. It could have been properly managed. There was so much interference. Pakistan, you know, and, and, and then short termism. Russia, American and its allies.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, we're going to talk about how we left in a minute and that was the real, the real tough one.

[Jamie Rubin]

And, and a cautionary tale, I think honestly, because Afghanistan still stands as a, the way America left and the type of negotiation that Trump executed. And let's actually talk about who was his main negotiator. He mentioned Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, but the everyday guy was Khalil Zad, who was your professor before that when you were a student in Colombia. And before that he was ambassador to Afghanistan, U.S. ambassador. And wasn't he was he ambassador to.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The U.S. and the, and Iraq, Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Jamie Rubin]

So you think, and he was a.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Know what he was doing. He just, you think he could have.

[Jamie Rubin]

Cut a better deal.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It was terrible. And then the Biden people kept him on, which is one of the reasons it was such a disaster. But I guess we're going to get into that in a minute.

[Advertisement]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back. Featuring the Annabe Collection Kitchen, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slip covers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures, ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Jamie Rubin]

Again, because it is a cautionary tale and because Afghanistan has been the graveyard of so many empires, British, Soviet and American, we need to talk about it because it might seem like some far flung over ended forever war. But don't you think Jamie, that it has so much messaging and a cautionary tale and lessons that should be followed as to how America got out of it so disastrously.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wow. It was very painful. I was not in the government then. It was before I joined the Biden administration. Look, there were two choices when President Biden came into office. He could follow Trump's deal to leave that he promised the Taliban we'd leave, or he could try to renegotiate it and stay. And the irony here is that it was Joe Biden in the Obama administration who had the best plan. Let's keep a small force there. It will just fight terrorism, it will protect Kabul, and it will be up to the Afghan government to deal with the rest of the country. Now, whether that could have lasted longer, could it have been a long term deployment or not, with a renegotiated agreement, we'll never know. It's certainly not as easy to deploy there as it would have been, say in north, the Korean border or Europe, where we had long, long term deployments but no real conflict. But the way we got out hurt, it hurt America. There were some terrible images. But I want to read you something. The guy I most respect in terms of operations of the US Government, a man named Richard Clark, who was the terrorism czar when 911 happened and helped George Bush and then left when Bush moved on to Iraq, which he thought was a mistake take. And he said, this is what we're going to remember. It's a bit long, but it's really important when they do all the work, he said, quote, what they will likely determine is that the civilian National Security Council leaders are, as a group, inexperienced as managers of difficult contingency operations, better at giving advice about grand strategy, where it is always difficult to determine performance than at making the complex machinery of national security worse work. They were willing to accept a plan that called for getting the US Military out before American civilians and our Afghan dependents. A proposal so obviously unworkable that it is hard to imagine any experienced operator not laughing it out of the White House situation room. Well, that's what happened.

[Jamie Rubin]

And to this day, we have certainly here in the UK military people furious still that the people who help them every day on the ground in Afghanistan, at great risk to themselves, were left behind. And certainly in the United States military, U.S. active duty and reservists and retired military furious that their buddies, their vital assistance in translating and knowing and intel and all the rest and just knowing the territory have not been rescued. Some have, but so many of them are still there. It is a disgrace, actually.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But, you know, the military has some explaining to do as well, because, let's face it, what really happened there? You know, we've all watched the Titanic where there is an emergency and you put women and children on boats and the men go last and some of them don't make it. The US Military was allowed to do something I've never heard of before. It was soldiers first leaving women and children last. And how that was allowed to happen, I do not know. It was not just the civilians. It was the military and civilians together that failed. And I think that's extremely important to recognize.

[Jamie Rubin]

Do you mean the American soldiers first? American allies?

[Donald Trump]

Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The American soldiers left in the middle of the night a month or two early so they could be protected. And they left the Bagram Air Base, which was the point that Richard Clark made, which you can't do if you're going to have an airlift. But I should also say, because I've been very critical, that the effort was made, an enormous effort was made by the US Government and hundreds of thousands of people were removed in a massive effort that was extremely difficult amid the chaos of the withdrawal because, let's face it, they didn't think the Taliban would take over so quickly. They didn't think that Ashraf Ghani would leave town the moment things got hot. They didn't think Kabul would fall so quickly, quickly. But once it did, they did do heroic effort. Thousands of people in the US Government worked their tail off, including the military, to get as many people out as possible. And hundreds of thousands were gotten out in time. But that terrible image of an Afghan desperate man climbing on a wheel of a plane, you know, you can't deny that it felt like that famous helicopter scene in Vietnam where America left in, in, in. In a disaster.

[Jamie Rubin]

And he fell, and it was several. Fell from the, from, from the undercarriage of the, the planes. It was terrible. Let's just talk a little bit about the disaster left behind. So even after the US Pulled out, they still were sending, I don't know, in the region of nearly $2 billion in aid for the most vulnerable, I think 750 million Afghans who were, you know, beyond poor, beyond hungry, beyond incapable of, of. Of surviving without help. They were sending now. Now usaid, over the last, you know, six months or eight months, all been stopped. You've got what has been named, I think, by the UN as a gender apartheid official. Gender apartheid taking place in, in Afghanistan where, you know, even basic rights. Jamie. I mean, when I was there, they were, you know, they were starting to make women in public again, you know, wear the mask Wear the burqa even on television, after 20 years of being able to report the news with. With just a modest headscarf. And then they were like, no, we don't even want to hear your voice anymore. You women, you can't leave your house without any men folk. You can't shop. You can't go to school. You kids above 12, if you're girls, you cannot go to school. You can't. Did I say raise your voice? Because if you raise your voice and the men hear your voice, they might be, you know, driven to some extreme behavior. I mean, it's really, really, really, really horrendous again. And President Trump and the others about the aid, you know, they create a narrative where they say $5 billion have been sent, you know, to the Taliban, to terrorists. Well, even the government's own accounting said, you know, at most, 11 million of taxpayer money has gone astray in this particular time period. Doctors, nurses, you know, clinics, all that that was being funded and helped by the United States and its allies and other NGOs. Cut. Goodbye. Infant mortality, maternal mortality, and hunger has gone up. And I reported it in 2022, and my colleague has reported it again, getting worse and worse every day. So it's a tragedy. And you just wonder, again, blowback, what might happen. The one thing, the one thing that has happened, and I think people appreciate it, is the war has ended. It has. But there's death by so many other ways. You know, hunger, life expectancy, suicide amongst women and girls. It's awful. You know, Jamie, you used to say, and Madeline used to say that America is the exceptional nation, the indispensable and exceptional. Okay, it considers itself exceptional. And you guys say indispensable. My view is those. Those two qualified are definitely on hold now and maybe for a long time to come in Afghanistan and everywhere.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, indispensable nation is very tough to argue when Donald Trump has overthrown all the premises of America that made us special, that made us different, with his tariff war and his brutal diplomacy and all of those things. You know, let's get at one of the hardest questions of them all that the Republicans like to attack Biden on, which is saying that the way we left the disastrous images that were created is the reason Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine. We'll never know. You know, someday maybe there'll be an archive of Putin's words to his friends that'll be revealed. I kind of doubt it, but. And I just want to say that it didn't look good. It was a disaster. There's no question about that. But I think on this question that it's, it's, it's really a blame America first argument. Vladimir Putin had his eyes on Ukraine. Vladimir Putin was falsely advised by his idiotic military that he could take over Ukraine in a matter of days, overthrow the government, kill Zelensky and suck up Ukraine in a matter of days. I really don't think it was the Afghan withdrawal that provoked him. Might it have made it a little easier for him to go forward? Yeah, probably. But then Biden surprised him by the drama and the effectiveness and the leadership that was shown in responding to his war. So I think there's a lot of blame on Afghanistan itself. I think linking it to Ukraine is false, unjustified, unprovable, and I think a typical partisan attack.

[Jamie Rubin]

I mean look, let's face it, Putin had invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed Crimea. So that's a good, good seven odd years earlier. Like my mental math, not bad. But I think what America does sends messages far and wide and these dictators and autocrats and even others do. Take a look, I mean Putin did take a look at how, you know, the west reacted in 2014, how you know, the US pulled out of Afghanistan and everybody now says if the US basically delivers Ukraine to Putin and aggression works, then what lesson is China going to get? It might sound simplistic, but these things do have a knock on effect. You know, I remember before 911 there were many, many people in the United States, notably Laura Bush, the First lady who was very, very concerned about Afghan women and girls even before 911 and obviously continued afterwards, you know, Jay Leno and his wife, many, many people, Afghan women and girls was the thing that America knew about Afghanistan, Americans rather, they had heard about this thing called the Taliban who were brutalizing girls. And I remember going there and when the Taliban first came in and you know, the Taliban was so weird, they machine gunned statues, even statues of horses because they said, oh the Quran says.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And remember the Banyan and the Banyan Buddha?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well they just blew those up. Bamiyan Buddhists. But I couldn't believe that with AK47s they blew off the horses in some fountain in Herat. And then I was interviewing a Taliban leader back then who refused to allow his face to be shown. So I had to focus the camera, my cameraman on a, a vase of plastic flowers on a coffee table because according to the Quran, showing faces was not allowed. And oh by the way, they hated Western women and television. But for whatever reason I got to interview him. But not showing his face, which, by the way, is very different. Taliban 2.0 is bad, but different. And there is a definite split between those who run Kabul and those who are sitting in the. Their religious. Religious. I don't even know what to say.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Stronghold.

[Jamie Rubin]

So appalling. I don't even like to use the word religion because it goes against every religion, what they're doing to women and ordinary people. But there is a big split. But they won't talk about it, and they won't act on it publicly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The last piece of leverage we have that I hope the Trump people figure it out, how to use several billion dollars, was frozen. Frozen. And the Taliban really need that money. And I hope some diplomacy has begun, because right now it's only Moscow and Beijing that are talking to the Taliban, and they need those billions of dollars that are frozen. And maybe, just maybe, we can get some leverage and get some improvement.

[Jamie Rubin]

Meantime, I would like to refer you all to a very prescient Christian Amanpour, member of the X Files. You know how everybody was saying bin Laden's in Tora Bora or he's here or he's there, he's in a cave. Dave. Well, I was on the Bill Maher show on HBO in the United States, and I just found out it was 2008, three years before bin Laden was killed by the American Special Forces. And he asked me, where's bin Laden? Here's that little clip.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So isn't Osama bin Laden laughing his ass off? You've met him. Does he?

[Jamie Rubin]

I haven't met him. I wish I had met him in an interview. Somebody very Osama bin Laden. Well, she doesn't think this woman who.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Was in America, by the way, Sarah.

[Jamie Rubin]

Palin villa in a nice, comfortable villa in Pakistan. Did you hear me? I managed over all those men like, you know, mansplaining to me and interrupting me to say, Pakistan. They were going, cabo, okay, a villa in Pakistan. And sure enough, three years later, that's where he was.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let's remember that. That was one of the great Special forces operations.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I directed them to it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Fly in and out. Yeah, that. Fly in and out beautifully. Protect the region, get him, get the house, get all the data, get all the computer files, and then, you know, give him the justice he deserved and put him to the bottom of the ocean. That was a man who didn't deserve any more than that.

[Jamie Rubin]

Pakistanis won't tell you that that was a beautiful operation. They were mad that Obama busted their sovereignty and did a secret operation into their territory. Who knows, who knows? Who knows? Knew what? When? But that famous picture, remember in the war room with Obama and Hillary, and.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hillary Chairman, the Joint Chiefs. Yeah, Joe Biden wasn't it. Admiral Mullen and Tony Blinken was. And Tony Blinken was rushing in the door, the new Secretary of State.

[Jamie Rubin]

Anyway, there's a lot that we, we, we digested and hopefully gave a little light to, but things are not looking great. Let's hope that something comes out of some of these meetings that are going on that's not a total capitulation and surrender, or in the case of Israel and Gaza and the West Bank, a total annexation occupation, continued humanitarian crisis with no political resolution in sight. Let's hope that doesn't happen. But hope is not a strategy. And on that note, Jamie, I'm just going to say thanks. Thanks everybody for listening. This is the end of this episode. Make sure you follow the feed so that you never miss an episode and we will see you Thursday with our bonus Q A where we answer your questions. Keep them coming. Email [e-mail] or find us on social media. The handle is at amanpourpod. And again, you can listen to the X Files with me, Christiane Amanpour and Jamie Rubin on Global Player. Download it from the App Store or go to globalplayer.com Hasta la vista baby.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Bye bye.

[Jamie Rubin]

I just don't have Schwarzenegger's accent.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

[Advertisement]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anime is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas. Com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.