← Christiane Amanpour Presents: The Ex Files
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- [00:03]
Jamie Rubin
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:10]
Christiana Amanpour
This week in Davos, Donald Trump arrives Wednesday. Thursday is going to be peak Trump Europe nervous breakdown. How are we going to fix this?
- [00:18]
Jamie Rubin
This is not going to solve any problem other than make Vladimir Putin's day and potentially put us in a conflict with NATO allies.
- [00:27]
Christiana Amanpour
I mean, it's madness.
- [00:28]
Jamie Rubin
Is it all worth it if you're responsible for hand NATO over to the Russians, to the Chinese. This is what they've dreamed of, to have NATO destroyed. It's so, so tragic.
- [00:41]
Christiana Amanpour
People still stop me on the streets knowing that I'm Iranian, that I'm a journalist. Do you think Trump will come? They still want it. They still want the help.
- [00:48]
Jamie Rubin
I don't say this easily, and I'm very, very careful as someone who was a spokesman for the US Government about blaming the United States for problems that go on around the world. But in this case, I think it's fair to say that there is blood on the hands of the US Government.
- [01:02]
Christiana Amanpour
You said blood on their in the US but there's so much blood on the hands of the regime. Hi, everyone. It is us again. The X Files with me, Christiana Manpour.
- [01:16]
Jamie Rubin
In London and Jamie Rubin here in Austria.
- [01:20]
Christiana Amanpour
You confused me because I thought you were in Italy. Okay, okay, so we're laughing and joking, but there's no, no laughing matter about what we're going to be talking about today. Although it is about territory. It's neither Austria nor is it Ital, it is Greenland. So we're going to talk about the latest. I'm afraid some people, including people in high places over in Europe, believe that this has now crossed the third or fourth rail. One highly placed previous official basically told me that this threat of Donald Trump tariffs against Europeans who do not allow him to basically take Greenland by hook or by crook shows a seriously deranged state of affairs. That's what people are thinking. So we're gonna be talking about that. And we're also gonna be talking about the tragedy and the bloodbath in Iran and where the protests stand now that they've been at least temporarily snuffed out by violence. Jamie, with those two really, I mean, horrendous foreign policy issues going on. Can I just. I'm gonna posit a thought because we are currently almost exactly one year since Trump was inaugurated. TRUMP 2. I'm gonna say that the first year was Trump setting out what we've been talking about for a long time. And I'm talking about foreign policy now, the sphere of influence doctrine. And I think we've seen from the whole year that Trump finally taking Venezuela over, which is pretty much what he's done, and extracting the president and now basically telling the remnants of the Maduro regime that they have to do his bidding or else. You got that? You've got a whole year in which many people would say he's thrown Ukraine and thus Europe under the bus by not coming to the aid of Ukraine in a way that he should and by keeping on deflecting the fact that he hasn't extracted any concessions at all from Vladimir Putin. And then the last little bit of the sphere of influence is the China bit, Jamie, where although everybody recognizes that that is potentially the biggest global challenge, Trump almost has not gone into any kind of challenge of Xi Jinping. In fact, the opposite. Then you've got him stating that whatever he does is not about democracy. Look at the Venezuela situation. It's not about democracy. He said it over and again. Look at Iran, where Trump urged the Iranians to come out on the street saying help was coming and then it didn't and they got slaughtered. We'll talk about that in the second half. And we've got this very, very might makes first term. So the second year, I think Jamie and we can discuss is going to be okay. I'm going to destroy the EU and I'm going to destroy NATO and that's what's going to unfold in the second year. Over to you.
- [04:19]
Jamie Rubin
Wow. I just find it so painful. I've been in this business for decades. And Denmark and the Danes have always been the most powerful supporters in Europe itself, of the United States. And they all pride themselves on their pro American attitudes, often in contrast to France or Germany or other countries in Europe. Spain, Italy, they're proud pro Americans. They even have red as their, as their national color. They are going through paroxysms of pain every day because they are facing an attack by their strongest and brave closest ally, the United States of America, to extract their own territory, which they are proud to make part of Denmark. It makes them special.
- [05:12]
Christiana Amanpour
I want to play the sound bite from the Danish foreign minister who along with the Greenlandic foreign minister were in Washington last week trying to come to some kind of diplomatic agreement over this. And they met with J.D. vance, the Vice president, and Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, and afterwards came out and said, well, there's still a fundamental disagreement. We haven't got over the I want Greenland position of Donald Trump and we will not allow it to be sold or swallowed up. So this is a little, you Know, a little, teeny, little bit on the emotional side from the Danish foreign minister when he was asked how is this at the end of a lengthy press conference, how is this actually affecting you all?
- [05:51]
Jamie Rubin
It is not easy to think innovative about solutions when you wake up every morning to different threats.
- [06:00]
Christiana Amanpour
So he was saying, you can't do innovative solutions when you don't know what's going to come at you the next day. And, Jamie, this weekend in Denmark were massive protests. And there have been in Greenland as well, against this and the Dennings for sure. And the Greenlandics are just bewildered, astonished. They just cannot believe it. But they say they'll defend their principles and their rights.
- [06:27]
Jamie Rubin
Well, yes, and that's why this is such a big issue. Obviously, right now it's just talk, but it's very, very dangerous talk. And the talk, I think, has potentially created the worst, and we say this often, but this time it's real crisis of NATO potentially in its history. You know, we have to go back to the time when you and I were in School, the 1979 Euro missile deployment, when NATO was really at risk, when the people of Europe, many in Germany and throughout Europe, didn't want to deploy the missiles that the United States wanted to deploy. There were millions of people on the streets and it was a real crisis. This is worse than that because NATO countries have decided that is not the United States, but European countries, that they have jollied President Trump along long enough and that this reaches a new threshold, you might even call it the mad king threshold. We're not there yet, but it feels like we're in a mad king moment. And let me just take.
- [07:23]
Christiana Amanpour
Are we not, Jamie, Are we not there yet? Because as I said, this European said, this shows. And she used the word deranged, which also means mad.
- [07:31]
Jamie Rubin
Absolutely. And I say that because I think there is a certain logic and let me explain it, and then hopefully there's a positive scenario here. President Trump did something, you know, you can be for or against it, the removal of Maduro. It was an effective military operation. And I should say here that any suggestion that deaths are minimum is not what I meant. Many weeks ago when I said the casualties were minimum, what I meant was that the operation was conducted, did relatively well, and any deaths is obviously a danger. As a result of that, he thought he had powerful leverage. He thought he could begin to compel countries all over the world to do what he wanted by threatening the use of force. So the first case of that was Iran, and we can talk about that. But he backed off in Iran. And I am hoping that his sense after Venezuela that he was, you know, reigning supreme, he was the mad king, he could do whatever he wanted. He learned in Iran, he can't do whatever he wanted. He couldn't change the regime. And he may learn in Greenland that this cost benefit analysis that made him decide not to use force in Iran applies to Greenland as well. First of all, we would have to face potential opposition from the people of Greenland to get what we already have is the cooperation of the people of Greenland and Denmark to defend Greenland against a potential threat from Russia or China. This doesn't make any sense. And here I have to say the final thought on the emotional personal element. I really believe the two most important secretaries, since Heath is not a serious person, are the Secretaries of Treasury and the Secretaries of State, Rubio and the Secretary of Treasury. They have a responsibility. They are going to be judged for the rest of their lives about what they do when we're in a crisis. America is in a crisis now. It's reaching where all the comfort and calm that I try to apply to these issues, I can't do it anymore. I can't say that, oh, it's going to go away, or, oh, it's just talk. He is destroying NATO with his words every day. And the winner in this, the man who's winning from this is Vladimir Putin, who's been trying to destroy NATO since he became leader of Russia. And now he doesn't have to do anything. He just watches Donald Trump destroy the trust and confidence and relationship between these two, including incredibly strong allies. People in the Danish military died in Afghanistan in large numbers in Iraq, in Libya. They deployed all over the world with American soldiers. And they are now looking at Americans as potential enemies. Think about how crazy that is.
- [10:20]
Christiana Amanpour
It is crazy. And that's why right now, as we record, you know, the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who's made a lot out of trying to manage Trump in a way that works for both, right? But now he's had to go out and talk to the British people and say that we can't accept these latest threats. As you know, the latest threats which came overnight were, were about the putting tariffs on Britain and all these other countries that are, have spoken out against the forcible grab or swallowing up of Greenland. So he is, you know, basically said it's wrong. You got to basically keep your hands off. Macron has said, said the same thing. He is an expert, you know, from, from Brussels think tank. We can either fight a trade War or we're in a real war. Oh, my goodness. That is pretty dramatic. All the polls recently from the United States, Jamie, there's a CNN one, there's a, I think it's a Politico affiliated one. The vast majority of Americans are against acquiring territory by force or any other extra, you know, way, and they just don't want this to be happening. That's the American people who Trump says he is working to secure. Now, let me just, Jamie, take this moment to play. You know, the Sunday shows are all pretty important. It's where both here and in the United States politicians come out and basically say what they think about the story of the day. So here is a Republican from Ohio, Mike Turner, representative of Ohio, said this about the threat of tariffs against Europe or anybody else. Here we go.
- [12:01]
Jamie Rubin
Now, depending upon how the Supreme Court rules, they may find he doesn't even have tariff authority. But even if he is found to have tariff authority, I don't believe he has the ability to impose tariffs for the purposes of compelling other nations to sell the United States land for the purposes of US Expanding.
- [12:20]
Christiana Amanpour
So, Jamie, that's Mike Turner. He chairs the US Delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. And you know, we acknowledges the president's threats have caused tensions amongst the alliance. But he also talked about scotus, the Supreme Court, which as this podcast drops, is meant to be ruling on whether tariffs are legal. But he says even if they are, this is not the way to use them.
- [12:42]
Jamie Rubin
So the tariff decision of the Supreme Court is going to be extremely important and I hope and pray they read the Constitution honestly. Which means that Donald Trump doesn't have the unilateral authority, authority to impose tariffs like this. But what the tariff threat does is destroy all of his trade policies. Remember, he's made a deal with the Europeans that's supposed to be in the, in the works. The eu, US Deal, this is all will be destroyed through this tariff threat. He's made a deal with the UK on tariffs and trade and that will be destroyed through this tariff threat. All because he's trying. And this is where Mike Turner was very smart. He used the word compel. That's what this is all about. Beginning in Venezuela, then in Iran and now in Greenland. Donald Trump thinks he can wake up in the morning and compel foreign governments to do things against their national interests because he wants them to. And compellance is one of these theories of international relations which has been demonstrated over time is extremely difficult to do without implementing your threat. And I don't think invading Greenland is going to solve any problem other than destroying NATO and making Vladimir Putin happy. And so the tariff threat isn't going to work. The Europeans have taken a stand now, thank goodness, and said, this is too far. Taking over Greenland is too far. We're not going to make nice anymore about this. We'll talk to you, we'll negotiate about arrangements for Greenland, which would be good. To have more American involvement in protecting Greenland for the future, that would be a good thing. But owning it, taking it away from a NATO ally and the people of Greenland is, is a, is a threat too far, is way over the top. And we're in the land now where over the top is the word of the day.
- [14:31]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah, and, and, and, and I just want to just drill down on this because at the height of the Cold War, America had a lot more bases and people and forces in Greenland that was, you know, everybody agreed to it, it was necessary and all the rest. Then it may, may have got a little bit, you know, sparser with other threats and, you know, post, I guess, 9, 11 and all of that. But nonetheless, Jamie, America has a kind of anywhere, anytime, any place agreement with Greenland to do what it has to do to be, you know, to be there to protect against, against the threats. Right. I mean, it has right now the, the ability. And just one thing I just read you, because this here's a, A man on the street in Denmark who was asked about this. He said, there's so much consternation that your president, meaning Trump, appears completely immune to data, facts, arguments and common knowledge. He continues to state what's obviously factually wrong. This is unbelievable to so many people in our country. We can't understand what's happening and we wonder what next?
- [15:34]
Jamie Rubin
Exactly. Look, the Danish government is willing to, able and ready to improve and increase the protection of Greenland against any potential threats from Russia and China in the future. They have made special arrangements. They've been buying all sorts of equipment. They've created a special command headquarters and a special unit precisely for this purpose. And we have all the authority, all the help we need from the legal arrangements that have been in place if we want to do more, which is why you kind of know that's not what it's about. It's about Donald Trump, the president. What is increasingly troubling as a, as a person wants to just have America be bigger, not better, not making America great again, just making it bigger. And that this is not going to solve any problem other than make Vladimir Putin's day and potentially put us in A conflict militarily with NATO allies.
- [16:35]
Christiana Amanpour
I mean, it's madness.
- [16:36]
Jamie Rubin
It is madness.
- [16:38]
Christiana Amanpour
It is. Actually, you can't even, I can't even, I can't even see that battle plan. It's just, it's, it's just completely mad. But even if everybody says this is Donald Trump negotiating, and of course this has to be, those who like to say that he has a point, says, well, we've got to negotiate. And of course, he's not talking about military intervention and this and that we'll see. Because this week in Davos, Donald Trump arrives. And Wednesday, Thursday is going to be peak Trump Europe, you know, nervous breakdown. How are we going to fix this? But just to be absolutely clear about the national security threat which he and his people keep harping on about, here is what this is now. A Democratic senator who said this on the Sunday show about the threat that Trump has, has been talking about.
- [17:28]
Jamie Rubin
There is no current security threat from Russia or China to Greenland. The only security threat to Greenland right now is the United States. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Christiane. This is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. That means that he, more than any other senator other than the chairman, gets briefed on every single thing the US Intelligence Committee knows about threats. He's telling us that there is no near term problem that this is going to fix. And he's honestly saying the real threat that is now coming from Washington. Think about that. Mark Warner is a very sober and serious person whom I know. And I just need to say as clearly as I can that I am only hoping that this is Donald Trump thinking that after Venezuela he can get what he wants through threats. That Iran was the first time he realized that it doesn't always work when you're dealing with someone's national security. This case, the regime in Iran. And it's not going to work with Denmark because this is their territory. And the Europeans have said enough is enough. We're not going to let you take over a fellow NATO ally just by threatening.
- [18:39]
Christiana Amanpour
Jamie, I want to just tell you something you said before we move on to our next segment. I hope I can get this out quickly and coherently. But you said, when will Rubio and Besent, for instance, state and treasury secretary, stand up and stop this? So I was at the Munich security conference last year when J.D. vance did his thing and put everybody on edge by starting the critique of Europe allies, European allies, saying that they're responsible for, you know, whatever threats they face. It all comes from inside anyway. There's a lot there. Anyway, I was taken by one senior American congressperson into a room where other senior American Congress people from the delegation were. And one of them was, was, was a senior Republican who was in the spotlight because this person was kind of being watched about what the vote would be for confirming there was Hegseth, which was a big controversy for all sorts of things, and then there was Rubio. And this person said, you know, in the end, I'm probably gonna vote to confirm Hegseth because I have 3 million constituents and I need to be in the room and I need to have a place at the table. I'm like, okay, even despite everything you said before, even despite your experience with sexual abuse in the military, et cetera, then, then another person said, I'm sure that Marco Rubio is going to stand up to all of this anyway and keep the train on the tracks. And neither thing happened one year later, nearly you've got Hegseth who is empowered. I mean, you say he's, you described him as not a serious secretary, but he is very involved in the Venezuela operation and he's going to be able to, you know, polish his non existent brass on his chest and said, look, what a great military operation. In any event, they're still there. This senator is no longer going to be seeking election and they have not been able to figure out how to, on substance, confront some pretty difficult and dangerous challenges presented by the executive.
- [20:50]
Jamie Rubin
I think that's exactly right. And America's system of government relies in large respects on the individual consciences of senators. That's the way it was designed because they're up for election every six years rather than two. And they have prerogatives in foreign affairs, extremely important ones. And it's really not the Democrats anymore. We're in the minority. We don't have the House, the Senate. The Supreme Court is Republican appointed judges. They have the executive branch. They've wiped out the middle levels of the US Government. It's really all Republican government if these Republicans who are in the Senate don't stand up and be counted. And Senator Rubio was a respected senator and that's why they're all counting on him. But he's showing that he will dance with the devil and do whatever it takes to stay in power, to be in power, hopefully to be president, presumably. But is it all worth it? If you're responsible for handing NATO over to the Russians, to the Chinese? This is what they've dreamed of, to have NATO destroyed. The premier military alliance of the United States, the alliance that Makes us great as being threatened by these self aggrandizing statements about Donald Trump's desire for Greenland. It's so, so tragic and mad and I've lost my ability to be sober about it. And I'm sorry that I don't have anything more int intelligent to say. No.
- [22:24]
Christiana Amanpour
And just to, just to again drill down on this, the Ipsos survey Data says that 85% of the United States, overwhelmingly 85% of them, oppose invading Greenland to make it part of the US and using US troops to overthrow the Cuban government. 78% oppose that or the Colombian government. 80% oppose that. Now to the CNN poll, 75% of Americans oppose US attempts to take control of Greenland. So this is, this is pretty, you know, this is the people of the United States speaking now. So potentially the president will listen. And again, it's for the good of all of our security if they can just figure out how to work this out without going over the top. And Davos is going to be key because the Europeans are talking about using the bazooka, you know, without going into it. It's a massive trade, you know, sanctions and tariffs that Europe can level on the United States and nobody wants to go there anyway. We are going to take a break and when we're going to come back, we're going to talk about the tragedy, the bloodbath that has for this moment put the protests either snuff them out, crush them or put them on hold. It is a desperate tragedy. Welcome back. We've been talking about, about the, I guess, overreach of the United States of America right now on the one hand, trying to take Greenland by hook or by crook, despite the objection of just about everybody on the planet. And now let's talk about Iran, which for the last several days appears to no longer have those protests on the street. There's still a pretty bad Internet blackout. But all the stories and anecdotes and voice notes and all the rest of it that we're getting out portrays a bloody, bloody weekend on the, you know, between the 8th and the 11th of January. So a week ago and more quiet on the streets. Now, the Sunday Times of London had a shocking, shocking report this weekend trying to get as many numbers as possible. There's a sort of a doctor's coalition which according to the Sunday Times has said that potentially 16 and a half thousand Iranians were killed. And they say most, if not all of them were protesters. We know that several hundred at least of the security forces were also killed because the state television showed funerals of them. We also know that Ayatollah Khamenei, the so called supreme leader this weekend went on television in a state broadcast and admitted that, quote, thousands of people were killed, but he said they were doing the bidding of the United States. So here we are, Jamie. And I don't know, my heart is just, it's just so hard to listen and to read and to hear what's coming out. I've covered these demonstrations before. This one for sure is the biggest, the bloodiest and the one that people say they've lost their fear and a whole Rubicon has been crossed now. So we don't know what's going to happen next. But the shock and the trauma that people in Iran are going through right now is, is unparalleled, according to everybody who I can manage to talk to either there or since they have come out and sent us various testimonials before I play some of it because I do have it. Jamie, look, President of the United States several times called on people to come out, especially that terrible weekend, and said, we will help you seize your institution. Help is on the way. Reza Pahlavi as well said, and he's the crown prince, the most notable opposition figure, come out, come out. And you know, at certain times, and they did and they believed that help was on the way and then it wasn't.
- [26:22]
Jamie Rubin
Yes, I don't say this easily and I'm very, very careful as someone who was a spokesman for the Earth government about blaming the United States for problems that go on around the world, because I think, I think often that's wildly overstated. But in this case, I think it's fair to say that there is blood on the hands of the US Government. There's no doubt that Donald Trump's, President Trump's words were heard in Iran, that given Venezuela and other actions that President Trump has taken, those words were believed. And this reminds me a lot of President George Herbert Walker Bush at the end of the Gulf War, who had incredible credibility because he had just defeated Saddam Hussein, called on the people of Iraq to rise up the Shiites and overthrow the Saddam Hussein government. And then something monstrous happened. Back then in 1991, Saddam Hussein used the remaining Republican Guard forces and slaughtered probably hundreds of thousands of people who did rise up, up. Now, I don't know how many people went out in the streets after days and days of President Trump's administration saying things like you've quoted, but certainly many did, believing that help was on the way. And then in the end, the president Blinked. And you know what I find so shocking about this? Like me, the Republicans often criticized President Obama for his red line threat to use military power. Understanding that, as President Biden used to tell me when he was senator, great powers can't bluff, big powers don't bluff. And this was a grand bluff. And he somehow thought he could tell the protesters to come out and they'd somehow take over the government. And then when he was confronted, and the stories have been quite clear about this, with the details of what we could and couldn't do, what forces were in place, what effect they would have, what the retaliation would, would mean, suddenly countries like Israel, Saudi Arabia, all the countries of the Gulf were all saying, please don't do this, because the Iranians are now so threatened and so box in the corner, they're going to lash out and attack American forces in our countries and possibly our oil fields. And we don't need this right now. And it's not going to achieve the objective because you can't overthrow a government from afar.
- [28:49]
Christiana Amanpour
I will say, Jamie, people still stop me on the streets knowing that I'm Iranian, that I'm a journalist, as if I knew anything. Do you think Trump will come? They still want it. They still want the help. They still want it. You know, I'm talking obviously about the diaspora right now, but certainly inside Iran during the uprising, there was, and, you know, you said blood on. Blood on their hands in, in the U.S. but there's so much blood on the hands of the regime. And he is from, from. From a regime official who, who sent me a note because I was trying to get some information after Trump posted this. I greatly respect the fact that all scheduled hangings which were to take place yesterday, over 800 of them, have been canceled by the leadership Iran. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Well, well, that might have stopped the intervention, the 800 number. Who knows where that came from? Nobody knows publicly. The head of some judiciary has said there's no way that can happen. This person who sent me this said, this is ridiculous, you know, implying that these things might still happen. And it's just nuts. Thank you. I greatly respect. Honestly, Jamie, you know, Iranians are fit to be tied right now in terms of just not knowing which way to turn, because on the one hand, they really do not like. This is the opposition and the protesters, the idea of trying to engage with this regime. On the other hand, they want help. And on the other hand, it's. It's so bloody. Can I. I don't know. It's very hard what about that Trump tweet?
- [30:26]
Jamie Rubin
Yeah, it's very hard to hear him praising the Tehran government. And it shows you that he was looking for an excuse, excuse to stand down. And he wanted to claim he achieved something because his threat was shown to be a bluff. There wasn't anything we could have done at that time that would have ensured the success of the protests. But interestingly, and I don't say this easily, but as I understand it, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, because he was caught in a situation where he couldn't offer the President any successful realistic options, has now ordered forces to be moved to the Persian Gulf. And the carrier Abraham Lincoln is being moved there, and many other pieces of equipment, special fighter aircraft to protect the Israelis in the event of retaliation. All of which means that in the next two to three weeks, there's going to be another moment where this time the forces will be in place that could do something again, not change the regime. You can't do that from afar. And you can't do that because the regime is. This is ensured by this equation we talked about last time, how many Iranians in the Basij, in the irgc, that is the government forces will slaughter their own people. And we learned that there are a lot of those. They did.
- [31:46]
Christiana Amanpour
And the other equation is how many of them will defect. That's what happened to turn the revolution, which by the way, was a street uprising against the Shah, you know, but it was the defection and the way they, the military turned in the end, in the end, that that was the defining position.
- [32:03]
Jamie Rubin
What was new to me wasn't that the regime was willing to slaughter their own. What was new is the scope and breadth of the willingness of the people to risk their lives and to put themselves at risk and to stand up to the regime. And what happens in these cases is it all can tip one way or the other, but until it tips, the result is people get slaughtered. And that's what the reality is in a regime that is surviving through the force and barrel of a gun. That's the only reason it's in place. The people clearly have had enough. Which type of government they want, I don't know, but they've had enough and they are willing to risk their lives. All classes, lower middle class, lower classes, the people for freedom in the middle and upper classes, they've all had enough and they're willing to risk their lives. And I've seen enough video and read enough reports to believe that we're talking about over 10,000. And that means that there's all those families with fury in their hearts that are going to go on and there'll be another spark. Now, Donald Trump as president will have in a couple of weeks a new set of options that he didn't have last week because of the carrier battle group, the aircraft, the consultations with allies, et cetera. But those options won't include a guarantee to overthrow the regime. That can only happen from inside when this equation changes. When what happens? You referred to when the regime forces switch sides, when they realize this is crazy. I'm not going to kill my own cousins, my own friends, my own neighborhood just because someone tells me to, to support their corrupt regime.
- [33:47]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah, it's, I never, I, it's bad. It's just really tragic. I think we're all so shocked and so traumatized and so saddened. Those of us outside, and you can imagine what the inside are feeling even worse.
- [34:02]
Jamie Rubin
But, Christiane, I mean, I think at the highest level, since the human thing is beyond description and I don't know the people as well as you do, but at the highest level, I think what we saw was President Trump's essentially flying too close to the sun. The arrogance of power. He thought after Venezuela, he could dictate terms to Iran, to Greenland, to many other countries in the world, but because they were afraid of him. And what he discovered is that it's easy to make a threat. It's often difficult to see the country decide to do what's not in their interest. And so the threat of the United States acting has now been weakened. He could not compel the Iranian regime, regime to give up and let the people take over. And I don't think he's going to be able to compel the people of Greenland and the government of Denmark to give up Greenland. And so what will happen is over time, all these threats will be just that, empty threats.
- [35:04]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah, yeah. And, and all those people who've looked to the United States for, you know, freedom and, and, and, and help and all the rest of it. Anyway, it's just, it's just we're starting another year, year of Trump 2.0, and we're going to have a lot to talk about because, you know, look at what this year start has brought us. Anyway, Jamie, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back with our recommendations. Okay, everybody, we're back now. Quick, finally segment on our recommendations. Mine is mad, but nonetheless, this is a mad time. So when I was a little girl growing up in Iran, there was actually a tennis tournament and one of the great players was a Yugoslav by the name of Nikki Pilich, who actually just recently died. But I remember him and wow. We were watching international players. So all I'm going to say is if you want to break away from the horrors of what we're seeing all over the place, watch the Australian Open tennis championships, the Grand Slam that starts the Grand Slams of the year. I'm sitting in London. The Brits are so far still in there doing okay, we'll see. But it's amazing. Sportsman and sportswoman ship.
- [36:18]
Jamie Rubin
Great. Well, I'm gonna pick, using the theme of that famous phrase, truth is stranger than fiction. When we were married, we used to sit in front of the TV and watch a show called Borgon. And we all thought it was brilliant. It was brilliant. It was about a woman becoming the prime minister of Denmark. And we watched it and it was one of the great shows. And one season, the last season of Borgen, she becomes foreign minister and there's a crisis over Greenland. And in that, that season, the danger was from Russia and particularly China. And Donald Trump probably would get a kick out of that because the danger.
- [37:03]
Christiana Amanpour
Maybe he watched it, maybe that's why he thinks there's a problem.
- [37:05]
Jamie Rubin
But here's what makes truth stranger than fiction. The person who wrote the program was quoted as saying, if I had come to my executives with the idea of doing an set of episodes of Borgen based on the threat of the Americans taking over Greenland, they would have laughed me out of the studio. And that is what's going on right now.
- [37:29]
Christiana Amanpour
And let's just remember what the Democratic senator said, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, that actually right now, now, those are not the threats. The US Is the threat. Yes, in a few decades, they will be the threats, but nothing you can't sort out with and by consensus with your allies and with obviously Denmark and Greenland. So that's it for this episode. We're going to have a lot to talk about coming up. You know, we will also have our Q A bonus episode dropping. So that'll be, you know, that'll be interesting, too. Thank you very much. You know the, that you can always listen to the podcast on Global Player. You can get that download it from the app store@globalplayer.com you can also always see us on YouTube, both our main episodes and our Q&As. You just subscribe to the YouTube channel. You look for Christiana Monpour Presents and subscribe and we will be back with that episode on Thursday. Bye bye, Jamie.
- [38:26]
Jamie Rubin
Goodbye. This has been a global player. Original production.