138 - D&C 81-83 CFM - Family, Finances, and Church Presidency - E30 July 21-27

Summary

Church History Matters: Episode 138 - D&C 81-83 CFM - Family, Finances, and Church Presidency

Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 138 of the Church History Matters podcast, hosts Scott and Casey delve into Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) sections 81-83, exploring foundational aspects of the Latter-day Saint Church’s structure, financial stewardship, and family responsibilities. This episode unpacks the historical context, key revelations, ensuing controversies, and lasting implications of these sections, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of their significance both in Joseph Smith's era and today.

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Overview of D&C Sections 81-83

The discussion spans three pivotal sections of the Doctrine and Covenants:

1. Section 81: Marks the nascent steps toward establishing the First Presidency.
2. Section 82: Introduces the United Firm, outlining the church's financial and business operations.
3. Section 83: Focuses on the church’s responsibilities toward families, particularly widows and orphaned children.

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Section 81: Formation of the Proto First Presidency and Jesse Gauss

Context and Content

Section 81 is a concise yet significant revelation received on March 8, 1832. It serves as a precursor to the First Presidency by outlining the roles of counselors in the presidency of the high priesthood. Initially addressed to Jesse Gauss (though his name was later replaced with Frederick G. Williams in early manuscripts), the section emphasizes the holders' responsibilities and the blessings tied to their faithfulness.

Notable Quote:

Casey [04:41]: "This is a stepping stone on the way to creating the First Presidency as we know it."

Jesse Gauss: A Brief Tenure

Jesse Gauss, a recent convert from the Shakers, was ordained as a counselor alongside Sidney Rigdon shortly after his baptism in early 1832. However, Gauss's commitment waned when his wife, Minerva, refused to join the church. His subsequent mission to reconcile with her ended in failure, leading to his excommunication and replacement by Frederick G. Williams.

Notable Quote:

Casey [06:15]: "This revelation was originally received on behalf of Jesse Gauss, but he doesn't."

Transition to Frederick G. Williams

Frederick G. Williams stepped into Gauss's role, becoming a pivotal figure in the early church. Joseph Smith's journal praises Williams' integrity and dedication, though it also notes instances where Williams struggled to magnify his presidency due to self-doubt.

Notable Quote:

Scott [27:37]: "Frederick G. Williams was a great guy. He wasn't perfect. He had his challenges, but he was a very important asset to the Kingdom."

Controversies and Consequences

The episode raises critical questions about divine foreknowledge and human agency, pondering why Gauss was called despite probable failure. The discussion underscores that while God extends callings, individuals retain the agency to fulfill or abandon their roles, as exemplified by Gauss's departure.

Notable Quote:

Casey [18:09]: "The foreknowledge of God meets the agency of man."

The replacement ensured the First Presidency's continuity, laying the groundwork for future church governance.

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Section 82: The United Firm and Church Finances

Context and Content

Received in Independence, Missouri, on April 24, 1832, Section 82 outlines the establishment of the United Firm, an organizational structure intended to unify the church’s financial and commercial endeavors. This revelation builds upon Section 78, which introduced the need for a coordinated management of the church’s businesses, including stores and printing presses.

Notable Quote:

Casey [38:05]: "This is the Lord's vision for the United Firm."

Theology of the Keys of the Kingdom

A significant theme in Section 82 is the assertion that the First Presidency holds the keys of the kingdom, granting them authority to direct the church’s efforts in building God’s kingdom on earth. This concept is foundational to understanding church governance and authority structures today.

Notable Quote:

Scott [02:52]: "The President and his counselors actually hold the same keys as the president of the Church."

Establishing the United Firm

The United Firm comprised nine key leaders tasked with managing various aspects of church finances and operations across Kirtland and Missouri. Responsibilities included overseeing land purchases, mercantile stores, and printing operations, effectively implementing the Law of Consecration in a business context.

Notable Quote:

Casey [46:32]: "The United Firm consecrated their time, money, property, and energy and pledged their cooperation to advance the business of this new joint stewardship."

Controversies: “Making Friends with the Mammon of Unrighteousness”

Section 82 advises church leaders to engage in commerce and build relationships with non-members to safeguard against hostility and ensure the church's survival. This directive, phrased as “make friends with the mammon of unrighteousness,” emphasizes pragmatic cooperation while maintaining spiritual integrity.

Notable Quote:

Scott [53:31]: "The Lord is giving them a heads up here in verse 22, like be friends so they don't destroy you."

Consequences and Dissolution

Despite its promising start, the United Firm faced significant challenges, including financial mismanagement and external persecutions. By 1834, revelations like D&C 104 dissolved the United Firm due to covenant breaches, yet the principles of delegated stewardship and financial consecration remained integral to church operations.

Notable Quote:

Scott [66:03]: "These revelations are really crucial. Although this original thing dissolves, the organizational structures and methods... are going to evolve."

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Section 83: Caring for Families

Context and Content

Section 83, received during the same Missouri trip in 1832, shifts focus to the church’s obligations toward families, particularly widows and orphaned children. This revelation addresses how the Law of Consecration applies to individuals who have lost their primary breadwinners.

Notable Quote:

Scott [69:35]: "It's family first, church second in terms of financial support."

Responsibilities of Fathers and the Church

The section reinforces the expectation that fathers provide for their families, encompassing financial, emotional, and spiritual support. In cases where parents are unable to fulfill these roles, the church is mandated to assist, ensuring the welfare of widows and orphaned children.

Notable Quote:

Casey [73:37]: "The church is designed... to help provide a surrogate family, starting out with the most basic needs."

Modern Applications and Controversies

Today's application of Section 83 includes addressing diverse family structures, such as single-parent households and dual-income families. The hosts discuss how contemporary leaders advocate for flexibility and mutual support within families, allowing for both parents to contribute economically without judgment.

Notable Quote:

Casey [86:46]: "No woman should ever feel the need to apologize or feel that her contribution is less significant because she is devoting her primary efforts to raising and nurturing children."

Consequences and Ongoing Commitment

Section 83 underscores the church’s enduring commitment to supporting vulnerable families, a principle that remains active through local bishoprics and specialized church programs. The revelation laid the groundwork for the church's comprehensive support system for families facing adversity.

Notable Quote:

Scott [82:05]: "The church can provide goods and assistance as part of its storehouse of resources and also provide the skills of the members of the church to help and to build those who are most vulnerable."

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Conclusion

Episode 138 of Church History Matters intricately weaves historical insights with doctrinal analysis, highlighting how D&C sections 81-83 shaped the early church's governance, financial practices, and social responsibilities. Scott and Casey effectively illustrate the interplay between divine revelation and human agency, emphasizing the timeless relevance of these teachings in fostering a supportive, organized, and spiritually aligned church community.

Notable Closing Quote:

Casey [95:37]: "We've navigated a lot of tricky issues in these sections, from the highest to the lowest levels of the church. But good, good counsel."

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Notable Quotes Highlighted in the Episode

1. Scott [02:52]:

   "Whether we're calling the presidency of the high priesthood the First Presidency, it's that they hold the keys of the kingdom of God."

2. Casey [04:41]:

   "This is a stepping stone on the way to creating the First Presidency as we know it."

3. Casey [06:15]:

   "This revelation was originally received on behalf of Jesse Gauss, but he doesn't."

4. Scott [27:37]:

   "Frederick G. Williams was a great guy. He wasn't perfect. He had his challenges, but he was a very important asset to the Kingdom."

5. Scott [53:31]:

   "The Lord is giving them a heads up here in verse 22, like be friends so they don't destroy you."

6. Casey [38:05]:

   "This is the Lord's vision for the United Firm."

7. Casey [46:32]:

   "The United Firm consecrated their time, money, property, and energy and pledged their cooperation to advance the business of this new joint stewardship."

8. Casey [73:37]:

   "The church is designed... to help provide a surrogate family, starting out with the most basic needs."

9. Scott [82:05]:

   "The church can provide goods and assistance as part of its storehouse of resources and also provide the skills of the members of the church to help and to build those who are most vulnerable."

10. Casey [95:37]:

    "We've navigated a lot of tricky issues in these sections, from the highest to the lowest levels of the church. But good, good counsel."

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an invaluable resource for those seeking to understand the historical and doctrinal underpinnings of the LDS Church’s organizational and social frameworks. By examining the challenges and triumphs of early church leaders, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the complexities and enduring principles that continue to guide the church today.

Transcript

[Scott]

Our day looks a little different than Joseph Smith's day. Can I start out that way?

[Casey]

Circumstances sometimes change and circumstances can be very individual. I think our job is just to lift everybody where they're at, to look at them and say, how can I help? That's the real role of the church when it comes to families.

[Scott]

But why do you think there's even, like, judgment in the church at all about this? Casey?

[Casey]

We've gone so far to the extreme that that's seen as a negative when it's very much a positive. And I'm not going to be judgmental about how they fulfill the duties explained in the family. Procl. Admire them for doing so.

[Scott]

How many of us fail to magnify our callings because of lack of confidence in ourselves that we were called to that calling, we could do it. Why wouldn't God call somebody to a calling? Why wouldn't the Lord give people an opportunity to serve? The Lord is generous. He just gives people opportunities. Help me help you help the world.

[Casey]

Hello, Scott.

[Scott]

Hello, Casey.

[Casey]

Here we are once again. We've got some juicy sections of the Doctrine and Covenants to deal with. Sections 81 to 83. How would you describe. Describe these, like, key points in organization? Definitely a major step towards forming a first presidency, which is going to lead to a quorum of the 12 and quorum of the 70 and then some church financial concerns, which it feels like are big in this section of the Doctrine of covenants.

[Scott]

Yeah, section 81, 82 and 83 almost have nothing to do with each other, but they are impactful. Like the outcomes of 81. Like you said, it's going to be. We're going to get a first presidency eventually coming from this. That's a. I call that a big deal. And then 82 is continuing this theme started in section 70, about this United order or united firm that the Lord wants to create. Like a corporate joining. It's like a joint partnership between different business entities in the church to help produce money. And then section 83, very practical about how to take care of those who may have lost their dad or who don't have a husband to take care of them. What should be the obligation of the church? Is the church to be primary to take care of those things or where does family come in? And, you know, so kind of navigating some difficult, timely questions that they were experiencing back then, which still have some pretty relevant modern components to them. That's right.

[Casey]

So we're going from, like the highest levels of the church, the first Presidency down To, like, the grassroots level. How do you manage your family and stuff that. I think the family proclamation is really influenced by some of the stuff that's in section 83. And that's a big deal right now, too.

[Scott]

Yeah. So here we go. We'll call this kind of a medley this week of some disparate revelations that aren't really building on each other, but definitely have serious consequences going forward. So let's dive into it. Give us our first C with section 81 context. What's going on here?

[Casey]

Section 81 is a short revelation, but it marks a really important step towards the creation of the First Presidency. So the context here is there's a conference held on January 25, 1832, in Amherst, Ohio, where Joseph Smith was ordained as President of the high priesthood. And we kind of just take all this stuff for granted today. Like, we usually just say president of the church, but in this early era of church history, they're defining roles like president of the high Priesthood and Presiding Elder. And they don't even have a First presidency at this point. There's pretty much just been Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the first and second Elder. So a few weeks after this conference where Joseph Smith is ordained as President of the high priesthood, this is on March 8, 1832. Joseph Smith chooses counselors. So he chooses and ordains Sidney Ross Rigdon and then a guy named, and this might be surprising to some of our listeners, Jesse Gauss to be his second counselor. They're going to be called the Presidency of the High priesthood. Then, on the 18th of March, 1833, almost one year after this revelation was received, the First Presidency as we know it today was created. So this is a stepping stone on the way to creating the First Presidency as we know it. And this revelation outlines some of the duties of a counselor in the First Presidency. You might call this like the proto First Presidency or like the test run for what's going to be the First Presidency. Here's the tricky thing. You've probably heard of Joseph Smith and you've probably heard of Sidney Rigdon, but this revelation was originally received on behalf of Jesse Gauss. And one tricky thing is that in the earliest copies of the Revelation, the name Jesse Gauss is crossed out and replaced with a name that might be more familiar to you, which is Frederick G. Williams.

[Scott]

Who is Jesse Gauss. Why was his name later crossed out? Why have we never heard of this guy if he was in the Proto First Presidency?

[Casey]

This is tricky, right? So here's the background that we know and some of this stuff is fairly recent research. I mean, and when I say recent, I mean, like, you know, in the last couple decades. But here's what we know about Jesse Gauss, and we don't know as much as we want to. Jesse Gauss was a relatively new convert. He was baptized in late 1831 or early 1832.

[Scott]

Isn't everybody an early convert at this point?

[Casey]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the church is about two years old at this point, so everybody's a new convert. But where you have people that have been members of the church for a year or two, we're talking Jesse Gauss probably like a couple weeks or so. He must have stood out of the crowd because he's called to be a counselor in the First Presidency. Now, before joining the church, Jesse was a member of the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Coming, also known as the Shakers, which we talked about a couple weeks ago.

[Scott]

Do we know if he was a convert from the efforts that came out of Section 49?

[Casey]

Think we do know. Like I said, our information on Jesse Gauss is extremely limited to the point to where he shows up in this Revelation, but that's pretty much it. And in the modern Doctrine and Covenants, he's not even there at all because the Revelation was repurposed to apply to Frederick G. Williams. In other words, this is a revelation to a counselor in the presidency of the high priesthood. Jesse Gauss was originally supposed to fill this role, but he doesn't.

[Scott]

Yeah, I'm so intrigued. What happened to this guy?

[Casey]

So here's what we do know. After he joins the church, he acts as Joseph Smith's scribe, and he travels with Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon to Missouri in the spring of 1832. And we'll talk about that in a minute when we get to section 82. But Gauss only serves in his calling as a member of the Presidency of the high Priesthood during the spring and summer of 1832, before he runs into some problems. So Jesse Gauss goes on a mission with Zebedee Coltrane to the Shaker community at North Union, Ohio. And this is not a random thing at all because, Scott, guess who's at North Union that Gauss goes to see? Specifically, who?

[Scott]

Who?

[Casey]

His wife, Minerva. So Gauss apparently was attempting to convince his wife Minerva to reunite with him and to join the church, and she refuses his offer.

[Scott]

So he joins the church, and he's in the Proto First Presidency, and his wife's not even a member. So this mission is to go get his wife. It kind of sounds like she refuses to join him.

[Casey]

Again, our information here is really lim. But after Minerva refuses to get on board with this, she begins to struggle on her mission. And his mission companion, Zebedee Coltrane, also becomes ill and has to go back to Kirtland. This is in August of 1832. So Gallus continues to travel to the east, but he all but disappears from the records of the church after he separated from his companion. And what happened to Jesse after he left? Zebedee Coltrane is really unknown. It's presumed that he was residing in Chester County, Pennsylvania at the time of his. The article on this kind of just says he walked out of church history, basically. So he, like, goes on his mission and never comes back.

[Scott]

He leaves no doubt dejected, his companion gets sick, they part ways, and he walks out of the church.

[Casey]

Yeah, so we don't exactly know what happens to him. But there's a notation in Joseph Smith's journal that's written on December 3, 1832, that seems to indicate that Gauss was excommunicated. And in his place, Frederick G. Williams was appointed as a count counselor in the presidency. So when this revelation is first published, this is several years later, in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, the name of Frederick G. Williams was included instead of Jesse Gauss name. And that modification has been present in every edition of the Doctrine and Covenants produced since that time. This action seems to indicate that Joseph Smith and other church leaders considered this revelation to be direction for whoever was going to hold the position of a counselor in the highest presidency of the Church generally, and not for specific person. So there are some revelations in the Doctrine Covenants, like, let's say section 11, that are directed specifically to an individual, to Hyrum Smith, this one's directed to a calling. And so it seems like in this case, they felt comfortable just crossing out Jesse Gauss's name, because that's what they do in the manuscripts. And putting the name of the person who did serve in that capacity, which is Frederick G. Williams in there.

[Scott]

So interesting. Okay, so let's look at the revelation itself. Our second c. The content verse one starts out like this. Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servant Jesse Gauss, crossed out Frederick G. Williams. Listen to the voice of him who speaketh to the word of the Lord your God, and hearken to the calling, wherewith you are called even to be a high priest in my church and a counselor unto my servant, Joseph Smith Jr. Unto whom I have given the keys of the kingdom, kingdom which belong always unto the presidency of the high priesthood. Okay, that's important. So you mentioned that a year from now we're going to actually get the official first presidency organized on the 18th of March, 1833. Significant moment in the Church. We should probably celebrate that day. Somehow March 18th, we get a first presidency. But right here, the Lord is dropping. A super important thing to understand about the presidency of the church. Whether we're calling the presidency of the high priesthood the first Presidency, it's that they hold the keys of the kingdom of God. Now, that's going to be brought up again in a year. Section 90, which we're going to cover pretty soon comes up about a year later from this section 81. And this idea of keys belonging to the presidency of the high priesthood is clarified again. When the Lord will say this, he'll say to Joseph that his counselors are, quote, accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom. That's interesting to me. My mind goes to this question that I had as a teenager and I've heard various versions of it from others, which is like, okay, when the president of the Church dies, who has the authority to ordain another church president? Don't you have to be a church president to ordain a presidency? Well, actually, this revelation right here is helping us start to understand that the counselors in the first presidency actually hold the same keys as the president of the Church. And so do we know who ordained President Russell M. Nelson to be the president of the Church today? We do. It was Dallin H. Oaks, because he holds those same keys that the president of the Church holds. And so that's interesting, right? So we're starting to get this, like this theology starting to crystallize around the keys of the kingdom. Now, we believe these kingdom keys are those very keys that were restored by Peter, James and John to Joseph and Oliver. These are mentioned in section 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants and section 128. Remember that Peter, James and John appear on the banks of the Susquehanna River. We don't know as much about this as we would like to know, but our two clues are in section 128 and section 27 that it says that they were, they, quote, declared themselves. This is Peter, James and John declared themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times. That's verse 20 of section 128. Subsequent revelations like section 65 help to clarify that the essence of what these kingdom keys do is it gives those who hold them the authority to direct how the gospel will roll forth unto the ends of the earth. That's a phrase from section 65. To build up the kingdom of God on earth in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ, at which time there will be a fusion of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth together. And so these keys help build up the kingdom of God on earth, preparation for the kingdom of heaven to come, essentially. So anything that has anything to do with the kingdom of God on earth would be under the direction, under the supervision of the Presidency of the High priesthood. Later call it the First Presidency. So that's a big deal. Verse two is dropping, like, I think, a really powerful nugget here that starts to have big implications later.

[Casey]

Right. And it's going to be confirmed about a year later in section 90, when the first presidency is officially organized. The language there, this is Doctrine and Covenants 96, says that his counselors would be, this is the wording. They are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom. And then we would take section 107 to extend that to say, and the 12 as well. Because that became an innovation introduced in Nauvoo was that the keys were given to all members of the 12, just like you brought up now. When Russell M. Nilsen was ordained as president of the Church, Dallin H. Oaks took the lead as the next most senior apostle, but was also assisted by all the members of the First Presidency 12, who today, all of them hold the keys necessary to lead the Church if they act under the direction of the First Presidency. The other thing we should mention here too is that when this revelation is given, Joseph Smith holds the keys of the kingdom conferred by Peter, James and John. But restoring the keys was not yet complete. There were more keys to come. The most prominent example of this would be when the Kirtland Temple was dedicated where Moses, Elias and Elijah all appear to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and give them further keys that's described in doctrine and covenants 110. And Joseph Smith also begins to pass these keys on. As church organizations become more complex, he passes the keys to other members of the first presidency. That's in section 90, and then to members of the quorum of the 12 so that they can lead the Church as well. And that leads us to the system that we're in right now.

[Scott]

Yeah. So we can really see how the seeds of what's going to become this organization as we Understand it today under the direction of keys held by first presidency, quorum of the twelve, mission presidents, temple presidents, stake presidents, bishops. All of that rewind is right here in section 81. Like the keys, first start with the first presidency, and later they're going to be subsequently delegated out, all still under the direction of the first presidency. That never changes, but delegated down as the organizational structure of the church grows in complexity and breadth. And so verse two, showing us a really important movement forward in that direction. Direction. Okay, let's go to verse 3 then. Therefore, verily I acknowledge him and will bless him. Speaking of Jesse Gauss, crossed out Frederick G. Williams here. I will bless him and also thee, inasmuch as thou art faithful in counsel, in the office which I have appointed unto you, in prayer always vocally and in thy heart, in public and in private, also in thy ministry and proclaiming the gospel in the land of the living and among thy brethren. So it's interesting that the promises here that are associated with this position are all predicated upon faithfulness, right? And which is relevant because of what happens to Jesse Gauss, as we see verse four. And in doing these things, thou will do the greatest good unto thy fellow beings and will promote the glory of him who is your Lord. Wherefore, be faithful. Stand in the office which I have appointed unto you. Succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down and strengthen the feeble knees. It's very cool to read this. I keep thinking of President Henry B. Eyring and President Dallin H. Oaks. They happen to be the counselors today in the first presidency. And just thinking about how well they do these things. And if thou art faithful, the promise goes in verse six unto the end. Thou shalt have a crown of immortality and eternal life in the mansions which I have prepared in the house of my Father. Behold, and lo, these are the words of Alpha and Omega. Even Jesus Christ. Amen. That's the full revelation. Seven verses intimate about what it takes to be a counselor in the presidency of the high priesthood. And frankly, as I read that, Casey, there's some pretty powerful principles that we would all do well to emulate, right? Lifting up, up the hands that hang down and strengthening the feeble knees and succoring the weak. But in other words, it's a call to be like Jesus, right? When you're called to the presidency of this church, like become more like him.

[Casey]

I love that the important structural parts of this revelation are really just the first two verses that explain that keys belong to counselors. As well. We're setting ourselves up for the First Presidency. The rest of this is a call to serve, to bless, to help people, which, you know, the current members of the First Presidency are great examples of that. They do so much to try and uplift and help people and to reach out to those that might be struggling or help them. And I think this is widely applicable counsel, not just to a member of the First Presidency, but you could probably take those last couple verses and apply them to just about any calling in the church and say, if you do this, you'll have done well in your calling.

[Scott]

All right, third C controversies. Casey, with section 81. Jesse Gauss. Gotta come back to him for second. Why would the Lord allow him to be called to the First Presidency if he knew he was just going to fail to serve in this capacity and he was just going to walk out of church history? Why even call him in the first place? You know, what does that say about God, about his omniscience or about character? I don't know. Like, any thoughts around that?

[Casey]

Yeah, this is another one of those. The foreknowledge of God meets the agency of man. To where, yeah, God has foreknowledge, but that doesn't mean that God. God intervenes in every single case or he doesn't offer people opportunities to demonstrate their obedience to it. So, I mean, we've been talking about this all the way, going back to the lost manuscript of the Book of Mormon. If God knew they were going to lose the manuscript, then why let them take the manuscript? Well, in that case, he tells them no two times first, and then the third time says, all right, under these conditions. And sometimes God does allow us to fail. Sometimes I would say also too, a calling is extended to someone, but God doesn't overrule a person's agency. They don't have to fulfill the role that God has given to them, but it's part of his purpose is to extend the role to them. I also think that this section is a great illustration of the idea, too, that callings are bigger than the individuals that hold them, if that makes sense. When I was a missionary, there was this patriarch in the stake I was serving in who was just amazing and he was awesome. And everybody talked about how he gave the most beautiful patriarchal blessings and was just so impressed with him. And my companion and I were visiting another person that lived in close proximity to this patriarch, and we had a few minutes, so we stopped in just to visit with the patriarchs. We were both curious, like, how does he do what he does. And so I remember sitting there in his front room and a football game was on, and we both were like, hey, so what do you do to prepare for a patriarchal blessing? And the guy leaned over and dead serious, said, I watch football.

[Scott]

Football.

[Casey]

And we were, like, totally dejected.

[Scott]

I was not expecting that.

[Casey]

Yeah, yeah. We were expecting him to say, like, I fast for three days, or I read the Scriptures for eight hours straight, or I pray for two hours, or I look up everything I can about the individual so that I know their background and their struggles. But then he leaned over and he taught me one of the great lessons of my life. He said, the truth is that the power comes with the call, calling. He said, I keep myself worthy and I read the Scriptures and I say my prayers and everything else that I needed came along with the calling to do this. And then he said, I think the prophet is a good guy who reads the Scriptures and says his prayers and keeps himself worthy and that everything he needs comes along with his calling as well. So don't associate the calling with just the person. Of course, he was a great person, and I really came to admire him. He was very down to earth, but also very spiritual. But I think he taught me a profound truth there, which is, whom the Lord calls, he qualifies. If you're worthy and you're called, you're qualified. Jesse could have fulfilled this role, but the Lord has to allow for agency too, and he just didn't fulfill the role so rightly. So. Frederick Williams, the one who did fulfill the role, was placed in the revelation because this was a blessing to the counselors, the First Presidency, not a blessing to Jesse Gauss or Frederick G. Williams for that matter.

[Scott]

Yeah, there's. There's kind of some assumptions embedded in my question that I think are, you know, important to tease out. Like, why wouldn't God call somebody to a calling? Why wouldn't the Lord give people an opportunity to serve, even if they're. They're not going to fulfill that right? I think that happens all the time in the church, honestly. Right. We, the Lord is generous. He just gives people opportunities. Another assumption is that the Lord calls, called him. Right. Another assumption is like, that the Lord told Joseph Smith, like, it needs to be Jesse Gauss. I think we need to make room for the President to be able to have some volition in who he chooses. Right. You know, a bishop or anyone who's ever been in a position where you get to extend a calling or to suggest someone to be your counselor, you know that there's some of your choice that goes into that, too. Right. You're considering who you'd be able to work with, and you're being prayerful, of course. But I don't think there's someone that's, like, foreordained in premortality to be your counselor. Right. Sometimes we can make this too grandiose. And what about the foreknowledge of God? What if it was just Joseph's choice? What if he said, I want to work with Jesse Gauss and Sidney Rigdon? I choose them to be my counselors. And the Lord acknowledges that and says, great, we're going to come up with this again later when we see. What's his name? Lyman Sherman.

[Casey]

Yeah, Lyman Sherman's the other issue that comes up. That's section 108 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Because he's called to be an apostle, he dies before he can fulfill the calling. That reminds me of I had a moment where I was serving at a bishopric, and we had to call a Relief Society president. And we talked about it and prayed about it, and we all felt strongly directing towards this one individual. And we called her in and explained that we wanted her to serve the calling. And then she said, you know, actually, we're in the process of getting ready to sell our house, and we're probably going to move in about a year. And then she asked the question, like, how come you think the calling came if that's the case? And I remember turning to her and feeling inspired to say, I think maybe the Lord wanted you to know that you were worthy to serve in this calling, that you were a good pick for it. And ultimately, what we decided to do was, because we all felt good about it, we called her, and she served for one year. And then her family went ahead with their plan and sold their home and moved to a different ward. But I still feel absolutely great about that. That year that she served was very impactful and helped a ton of people. And I feel like the calling came from God. God knew this wasn't going to work out with Jesse Gauss, but that allows us to use our agency, even if it's not always for the best or it won't fulfill his purposes. So I feel comfortable saying the calling of Jesse Gauss was inspired, but he just chose not to flourish in the calling.

[Scott]

They had some serious issues, obviously, going on in his marriage that he was trying to work out. And like you said, we actually don't know much about what happens after he walks out of the history of the Church. So we're going to leave judgment to the Lord on him. But until terms of his continuity in this calling that certainly was cut short. None of us are indispensable in the Lord's kingdom. Right? Even Joseph Smith a couple times already in the Doctrine and Covenants has been told that if you're not faithful, I can find someone else to replace you. It's a privilege, it's an honor to serve in God's kingdom. But his kingdom will roll on whether we're with it or not.

[Casey]

Yeah, it's bigger than all of us. And that's hinted early on too, where Joseph Smith is basically told he can be replaced if he's not willing to fulfill the commandments that you're important and you matter, but the work will go on whether or not you choose to be part of it. So, Scott, what are the consequences of this revelation? Section 81 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

[Scott]

Let's go back to Jesse Gauss for a second. So when he left this calling, the blessings that God mentions here in this revelations were given to Frederick G. Williams, as we said, though they remain conditional based on Frederick G. Williams faithfulness as well as verse 3 says, so though the apostasy of Jesse G. Must have been distressing at that time, the elevation of Frederick G. Williams becomes a great blessing for the church. And let me say something about Frederick G. Williams, like, he becomes a very stalwart supporter of the church, a very key figure in many of its most important events. He was picked up as a convert as part of the Lamanite mission. Like he's, he's pretty early on there. He actually goes with the missionaries to the Native Americans across the the border of the United States. He is just, he's gung ho from the beginning. In an early revelation, he was counseled not to sell his farm. In section 64, verse 21. In the years that followed, the land from the Williams farm was generously deeded to the church. The church then uses this land to build a printing house for the Scriptures, to provide a place for many church leaders to build homes. And eventually that land becomes a spot where the Kirtland Temple itself was built. Also, Frederick was the scribe for many important documents, including some architectural drawings for the City of Zion, several revelations, the first written account of the first vision, the 1832 account, is in largely in the handwriting of Frederick G. Williams, although Joseph Smith's handwriting is in there as well. For a time, Joseph Smith's family boards with Frederick's family. Frederick was a Frequent missionary companion of the prophet Joseph. And Joseph even names his second born son Frederick Granger Williams Smith, if that doesn't tell you how close their relationship was. And Joseph even wrote in his journal this amazing tribute to Frederick G. Williams. He said, quote, brother Frederick G. Williams is one of those men in whom I place the greatest confidence and trust. For I have found him ever full of love and brotherly kindness. He's not a man of many words, but is ever winning because of his constant mind. He shall ever have a place in my heart and is ever entitled to my confidence. He is perfectly honest and upright and seeks with all his heart to magnify his presidency in the Church of Christ, but fails in many instances. He says, that's interesting. So this sounds like a big glowing compliment. But then he says, but he fails in many instances to magnify his presidency. And this is why in consequence of a want of confidence in himself, Joseph said, God grant that he may overcome all evil. Interesting how many of us fail to magnify our callings because of lack of confidence in ourselves. Like we were called to that calling. We could do it. We can do it with God's help.

[Casey]

And in my judgment, it's sort of a shame that when we come to this section we spend a lot of time talking about Jesse Gauss because that's really like an interesting historical trivia, which really is what it is. And we sort of skip over how important Frederick G. Williams was to the early work of the church. Like we're not talking about somebody that's just in for a couple months like Jesse Gauss. Frederick G. Williams is a key leader, but he might not get his due because he does eventually come into conflict with Joseph Smith over the difficulties surrounding the Kirtland Safety Society. To make a long story short, there is a financial crisis in Kirtland and it has to do with some things that church leaders can control and some things they can't control. There's a nationwide financial panic, but there's also a bank that they've set up that fails and that bring Frederick G. Williams into conflict with Joseph Smith over how the bank was managed and how much money was lost. And unfortunately, in May 1837, the Kirtland stake High Council levels charges of misconduct against Frederick G. Williams. And at a conference of the church held in Missouri In November of 1837, he was released as a member of the First Presidency and Hyrum Smith was chosen to take his place. Although he was removed from the First Presidency, he remained a member in good standing. He follows the Church during its exile from Missouri. He settles in Quincy, just downriver from Nauvoo. And then he passes away October 10, 1842, of a lung hemorrhage. Though one of his children, Ezra, said it was more of a broken heart. And William's family was actually the only one from the original First Presidency that traveled all the way to Utah and stayed active in the church. In fact, I have had members of Frederick G. Williams family, family contact me or go on a church history tour with me. And we've talked at length about how great he was and from 1832 to 1837, how crucial he was in the church, and the fact that even though he's removed from the First Presidency and never returns to serve in it again, how important he was to some really, really critical developments like the Kirtland Temple, getting the land for that, and then designing and building like Frederick G. William drafts a lot of the early designs for the City of Z. And so I feel a little sad he doesn't get his due. And maybe we can start to rectify that here by saying Frederick G. Williams was a great guy. He wasn't perfect. He had his challenges, but he was a very important asset to the Kingdom.

[Scott]

So the consequences of this revelation play out in some ways in the life of Frederick G. Williams, but also beyond his life, as we've said, the crucial verse two in establishing this idea that the First Presidency holds the keys of the Kingdom and governs all the church. And so that's going to be something that again affects us every day in the. In the church today. So that all starts here in section 81. All right, we now transition to section 82 of the doctrine and Covenants. Casey, let's start out with the first C here. Drop us into the context of section 82. What's going on?

[Casey]

Section A2 is received in the other church center Head a meeting of church leaders in Independence, Missouri. That's one thing you have to kind of keep in the back of your head is that there's two church centers. One's in Kirtland, one's in Missouri. Kirtland is considered to be the first gathering place, but Missouri is where they're going to build the City of Zion. And Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon travel to Missouri. That's where Section 82 is received. And one way to think of this is that it's a companion to section 78, which introduces the United Firm, this organization that's going to oversee some crucial trust church businesses, especially the printing of the Scriptures, which includes the Doctrine and Covenants. So here's a little bit more backstory. On March 1, 1832, Joseph Smith and other church leaders meet in Kirtland to consider the Church's financial needs and how to move forward its mission to build the City of Zion. At this meeting, Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenants, Section 78, wherein the Lord announces that the time has now come and is at hand that there be an organization of the literary and mercantile establishments of my church, both in this place and in the land of Zion. Now, that's a fancy way of saying it was time to strategically align the Church's various business ventures, which then included Bishop Newell K. Whitney's store in Ohio and Sidney Gilbert's store and the church's print shop, which were both in Missouri. And to do this, they created a firm or a business partnership between church leaders in both locations to unitedly oversee and manage all business efforts of the the Church in order to advance the cause of Zion. And as part of this, the Lord also instructs Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon and Noel K. Whitney to travel to Missouri and sit in council with the saints who are in Zion about establishing this unified firm. So section 78 sets them up. Travel to Zion. Section 82 is received when they get to Zion. Companion Revelations. This needs to be acknowledged. But before they leave for Missouri, on The night of March 24th, 5th, 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are forcibly taken from their homes in Hiram, Ohio, by a mob of men led by an apostate named Simons Rider. And Joseph was violently tarred and feathered. Sidney was brutally dragged by his heels for some distance along the rough frozen ground, causing severe head trauma. His head is severely lacerated. And as a consequence of this, five days later, one of Joseph's infant children, this is one of his adopted twins, little Joseph Murdoch Smith, who, already sick with measles, dies from the exposure to the cold caused by the mob the night of their attack. So that happens right before they're supposed to go to Missouri. So Sidney Rigdon's probably not at his best on this trip. He's still recovering. There's talk about, like years of recovery, that he's never the same after this because this is really the first physical violence inflicted upon the leaders of the church only two days after Joseph's infant son dies on April 2nd. Second. With very little time to recover from what happened to him. Joseph's history records that on Sunday, April 2, I started for Missouri in company with Noel K. Whitney, Peter Whitmer Jr. And Jesse Gauss to fulfill the revelation referring to Doctrine and Covenants 78 and the instruction that they were supposed to counsel with church leaders in Missouri. They met Sidney Rigdon on the way. He had been moving his family away from Hyrum because of the mob danger. And then together, after about three weeks of traveling on foot, so stagecoach and steamboat, they arrive on April 24th in Independence, Missouri. And here they're relieved to find a group of saints who were extremely glad to welcome us among them. That's Joseph Smith's learning. Two days after they get to Missouri on the 26th of April, Joseph records this context. He said, I called the General Council of the church and was acknowledged as president of the high priesthood according to a previous ordination at a conference of high priest elders and members held at Amherst, Ohio, on the 25th of January, 1832. That's what we're just talking about in section 81. Then he said, the right hand of fellowship was given to me by Bishop Edward Partridge in behalf of the church. The scene was solemn, impressive and delightful.

[Scott]

So why would the bishop give the right hand of fellowship to the president of the high priesthood? Isn't that a given to me? That's a given in my mind. If the president church comes to visit, then everyone's excited. And there doesn't need to be any sort of like, we receive you into full fellowship or anything like that. But there was something else kind of cooking in the background here, according to the meeting minutes. So Sidney Rigdon said, stands in this meeting. He reads section 78 in its entirety to those in attendance and explains what the Lord had commanded them to come to Missouri to do to establish this united firm. Then there was a one hour intermission. And it was during this intermission, Joseph Smith recorded in his history that, quote, a difficulty or hardness which had existed between Bishop Partridge and Elder Rigdon was amicably settled. Close quote. Now, it's helpful to understand a little bit about what this contention was about because it plays out in the first verses of this revelation. So the previous November, Sidney Rigdon had actually written a letter to Missouri leaders bluntly charging them with a couple things. Like, for instance, he charges Edward Partridge with, quote, defrauding funds. That's a heavy accusation. Insulting the prophet, assuming authority over the prophet. There's like some authority tension between the leaders in Missouri and leaders in Kirtland here. And then in a special conference in Missouri. And on March 10, only in month and a half earlier, Bishop Partridge had confessed his faults and he had requested the Missouri Council of High priests to write a letter to church leaders in Ohio answering Sidney's charges against him and asking for forgiveness of those whom he had offended, with the assurance that Edward was, quote, willing to make every confession which Brother Sidney, as a disciple of Christ, could require and forever bury the matter. So that's kind of what's cooking in the background here. So when Joseph and Sidney arrived here together, Bishop Partridge extends the hand of fellowship, saying, there's no hard feelings. And then during that hour break after the first session, that difficulty, or that hardness, Joseph said, was fully resolved between these two men, between Edward and Sidney, it was amicably settled. As Joseph said. The meeting minutes then record that all differences were settled during that intermission, and the hearts of all run together in love. That's interesting to see that even at the highest levels of church leadership at the this time, there's some of this interpersonal tension that's happening and that has been resolved at this point. So that's all kind of lingering in the background here.

[Casey]

It goes all the way back to the first trip to Zion, right, where Edward Partridge isn't particularly enamored with the place and speaks his mind. And Sidney Rigdon jumps on his case, saying, you're criticizing the prophet. It's a nice little piece of humanity here to show these are imperfect people who had differing opinions, but who also were good people who were trying to reconcile, forgive and be followers and disciples of Jesus Christ. Now let's take a look at what Section 82 actually says.

[Scott]

The Lord actually opens this revelation with a reference to the reconciliation that just took place between Edward and Sidney. So if you know that, then verse one makes more sense. He says, quote, verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another your trespass, trespasses, even so, I, the Lord, forgive you. It's beautiful. We could just stop and marinate in that for a second if we wanted. Right. Just. This is good. Sermon on the Mount Doctrine. Right? Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. I forgive people who forgive people. And that is a very powerful principle that I don't think we can ever be reminded of too much in our lives. Go on a walk and think about verse one a little bit. Nevertheless, he continues, in verse two, there are those among you who have sinned exceedingly. Yea, even all of you have sinned. But verily, I say unto you, beware from henceforth and refrain from sin, lest sore judgments fall upon your heads. For of him unto whom much is given, much is Required, he explains. Remember, he's talking to church leaders here who have been given much responsibility in the kingdom. And then he says, and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater conscience, condemnation. Close quote. Casey, like 20 something years ago, I took a class at BYU, Idaho, called Teachings of the Living Prophets from Elder David A. Bednar. And at that time, he was. Yeah, he was a member of the 70. Wasn't yet an apostle. He'd become an apostle, I think the next semester, actually. But he. He once asked us this question. It was kind of shocked all of us young kids. He said, who can sin more, you or me? And. And we were like, wouldn't it be the same? He's like, no, let's say that you go out this weekend and break your covenants, I go out and break mine. Who's more accountable? And we started picking up what he was saying, and we're like, you. And he's like, that's right. Why? Because I have been given more. I have greater light, greater truth. Right? And he was teaching this very principle, that he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation. The Lord asks a lot of his church leaders, but he gives them a lot. And with that comes a pretty heavy responsibility. So I'll always remember Elder Bednar saying, who can sin more, you or me? Let's go on to verse 4. Ye call upon my name for revelations, and I give them to you. Thus, inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings, ye become transgressors, and justice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law. So. So the Lord tells this group, you along with everybody else, is to vigilantly watch, he says in verse five. Because the adversary spreadeth his dominions and darkness reigneth, and the anger of the Lord kindleth against the inhabitants of the earth for succumbing to that darkness. And none doeth good, for all have gone out of the way, he laments. But he assures these flawed church leaders right here in verse seven, I, the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge, so go your ways and sin no more. Then he reminds them that unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. So if we just back out a little bit here, Casey, I think we can see the Lord is very pleased with their recent reconciliation, their forgiveness of one another. He's saying, I like that you've been given a lot. Please stay in that mindset of forgiveness and goodness and kindness. Avoid rebellion, avoid going off the tracks when I've given you so much. You ask for Revelations, I give you Revelations. I'm here to help you succeed. So please don't sin. The world is heading toward darkness. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing to try to help save that world. So help me help you help the world.

[Casey]

The backstory is incredibly valuable to understanding this, right? Because the whole introduction is kind of, look, if you're going to preach and be servants on my behalf, you've got to live the principle of the Gospel, too. And that includes basic things like forgiveness and reconciliation. Once these first seven verses are set out by way of introduction, then the Lord kind of gets into the meat of what he's trying to do here, which is verses 8 to 24, where he's going to build upon section 78 by giving further instructions to this group of leaders regarding the united firm. So he begins in verses eight and nine, I give unto you a new commandment that you may understand my will concerning you, and to know how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation. He then goes on in verse 10, says I, the Lord am bound when you do what I say, but when you do not what I say, ye have no promise. He's setting us up to understand the conditional nature of what he's about to command them to do. Like, if you do this, I'll help you, but if you don't, you're on your own. Therefore, I say unto you that it is expedient for my servants Edward Partridge and Newell K. Whitney, a Sidney Gilbert and Sidney Brigden, and my servant Joseph Smith and John Whitmer and Oliver Cowder and W.W. phelps and Martin Harris, to be bound together by a bond and a covenant that cannot be broken by transgression, except judgment shall immediately follow in your several stewardships. In other words, these nine individuals are being brought into a binding legal contract with one another that if they violate, would carry serious penalties. The Lord gives sort of a similar instruction and warning in section 78, 11, 12. So specifically they were to covenant. Verse 12 explains, to unitedly manage the affairs of the poor and all things pertaining to the bishopric or the temporal affairs, both in the land of Zion and in the land of Kirtland. And then in verse 13, the Lord then explains for the first time how he views the relationship between Kirtland and Missouri's Zion. So crucial stuff for what's going to come up in the next couple. I have consecrated the land of Kirtland in my own due time from the benefit of the saints of the Most High and for a stake to Zion. This is the first mention in the Doctrine and Covenants of the geographical term stake, which is a really, really big deal in the church and is now really common. And just to give you some background that you might already know, the image of a stake is drawn from the prophet Isaiah's imagery of Zion as a big expanding tent whose borders will be enlarged in an ever expanding way until Zion covers the earth. Imagine a massive tent that has to be stabilized by having many strong stakes. And the Lord here is designating Kirtland as the first such location or stake in what would eventually become a vast network of thousands of church communities throughout the world, each helping to prop up and stabilize the ever expanding city of Zion.

[Scott]

It's almost like the Bedouin tents of old, like where they can expand as your family gets bigger. You can. Like what used to be a wall can be flapped up and become part of a roof and you can add another piece and it's like an infinitely expandable tent. It's such a cool analogy that every stake in this church is part of the ever expanding tent of Zion.

[Casey]

And then note the imagery in verse 14. He says, For Zion, which he's meaning Missouri, must increase in beauty and in holiness. Her borders must be enlarged and her stakes must be strengthened. Yea, verily I say unto you, Zion must arise, rise and put on her beautiful garments. Which is a close paraphrase of the way Isaiah describes this in Isaiah 54:2, also verse 1. So he goes on. Therefore, verse 15 continues to the end that Zion in Missouri may be built up by the wisdom of the financial strength of the Kirtland stake, and vice versa. The Lord tells them, I give unto you this commandment that you, referring to the nine men that make up the united firm, bind yourselves by this covenant according to the laws of the land. That's what the earliest manuscript says. Then he goes on, behold, here is wisdom also in me for your good, for you are all to have equal claim on the properties for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardship. Every man, according to his wants and needs, inasmuch as his wants are just setting up this idea of they're living an iteration of the law of consecration that's different from what section 42 describes and different than what the general church is being it us to live, but also takes those principles given in section 42 and uses them in a new and creative way.

[Scott]

Yeah, it's kind of like what does the law of Consecration look like in a business partnership setting. And maybe it'd be helpful just to kind of briefly break down some of the stewardships that were given to the nine men of this firm. We got Edward Partridge, Sidney Gilbert, Oliver Cowdery, John Whitmer and W.W. phelps, who will operate primarily in Missouri. Okay. While over in Kirtland, we're going to have Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Newell K. Whitney and Martin Harris. So they're going to kind of break up the two geographical areas and have leadership there. The following year, by the way, Frederick G. Williams and John Johnson. Are going to be added to the Kirtland branch of the firm. Now, each of these men have kind of their own unique financial stewardships to wisely manage. Let me just break it down real quick. So, for instance, Edward Partridge, as the bishop in Missouri, he's going to oversee land purchases there. And he had already by this time, by the way, acquired about 1200 acres to be used as inheritances for the Saints. Legally purchased. Done. Sidney Gilbert, who was the church's agent in Missouri, will operate a mercantile store there, which he was already doing. But then. So this is going to fuse his store with Newell K. Whitney's store and the printing press. So this is what's happening with this section. And W.W. phelps, with the assistance of Oliver Cowdery and John Whitmer. Are then going to manage the printing firm. The W.W. phelps and Company is what they called it. Which was the printing enterprise of the church in Missouri, which also included printing a church newspaper and the Book of Commandments, which is the predecessor here to the Doctrine Covenants. So now what? Section 70, designated as the Literary form firm, Is now being subsumed into the united firm. That's being established right here in section 82. Meanwhile, now we go over to Kirtland. Bishop Newell K. Whitney is overseeing the operations of his own now consecrated mercantile store. And he also has a profitable Asher nearby. And he's also managing various properties that he owns in the area. He's a very good businessman. Then Joseph and Sidney's responsibility in the. This firm was most directly responsible for the Revelations themselves. To receive and to edit them and get them ready to send to the printers. Then you have Martin Harris, whose responsibility is primarily as a financial supporter. To finance the publication of these scriptures. John Johnson, who's added a year later from this revelation. He'll act as a land agent, as an inn operator, as a farmer, farm owner. And then Frederick G. Williams is going to manage the Kirtland Printing Office. With the help of Oliver Cowdery once W.W. phelps's printing press is destroyed by mob action the next year. So right here in verse 17, right when the Lord is is talking about them having equal claims on the revenue generated by the various money making endeavors of the other members of the United Firm, it's helping us understand how the law of consecration will operate at this business level. And they have access to these funds. If the Lord is saying it would help you in managing the concerns of your stewardships. Every man according to his wants and needs, inasmuch as his wants are just so if those in Kirtland needed extra funds, they could draw upon the funds generated in Missouri, vice versa, to help each other out to grow this joint venture of the Church. All of this the Lord explains for the benefit of the Church of the Living God, that every man may improve upon his talent or his stewardship, that every man may gain other talents which is more financial means in this case, yea, even an hundredfold to be cast into the Lord's storehouse to become the common property of the whole Church. Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

[Casey]

So there you go. This is the Lord's vision for the United Firm. And these men are being invited to enter into a legally binding covenant with one another to uphold this vision and to use their unique skills to make it a reality. One modern scholar that wrote about the United Firm said it this Possessing managerial, financial or publishing skills, members of the United Firm consecrated their time, money, property and energy and pledged their cooperation to advance the business of this new joint stewardship. And as the Lord continues in verse 20, this order I have appointed to be an everlasting order unto you and unto your successors, inasmuch much as you sin not. But let me point out a couple nuances here in the earliest manuscripts of this Revelation, the word order here in verse 20 was the word firm. But when they first published the Revelation and others related to the United Firm, church leaders deliberately substituted the word order as a pseudonym for the word firm to obscure the financial nature of this endeavor so as to protect themselves and the church from unfriendly people intent on coming after the Church. So even the name United Order is like a code name, just like we talked about in some of the previous sections. And then he goes on and says, and the soul that sins against this covenant and hardeneth his heart against it, he warns, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption. Then finally, the Lord concludes the revelation with the wise counsel to make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you. Now, that needs a little explanation, too, right? Because it sounds confusing at the outset, but it seems like what he's saying here is the church leaders needed to be friendly with their enemies and to engage in commerce with them so as to not stoke the hatred and bring their destructive wrath upon themselves. And as for those who still insist on hurting or abusing them, as. As Joseph and Sidney recently experienced by this mob attack that happens in Kirtland, the Lord counsels, leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine, and I will repay. Peace be with you. My blessings continue with you. For even yet the kingdom is yours and shall be forever if you fall not from your steadfastness. Even so. Amen. One of the things that it seems like always gets the early saints in trouble is that they sort of keep to themselves. And the Lord is saying, you might. Might not agree with the business practices or the lifestyle choices of the people around you, but you need to work with them and find a way to come together, make friends, compromise, which sometimes we have a hard time doing that, but they're there and we have an obligation to help them. And that tension between keeping ourselves separate from the world. And like he says here, making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness is a healthy one that when it becomes too unbalanced one way or the other in the church, we sometimes run into problems with.

[Scott]

Yeah, this is totally going to play out relatively soon in our coverage of the Doctrine and Covenants. But about two years hence from this particular revelation, we're going to see all of this unravel in Missouri because like you said, they were not following these principles very carefully. So stay tuned for that trouble coming up. But for for now, let's turn to the controversies of Section 82. Okay, so we just talked about the Lord saying, make friends with the mammon of unrighteousness here. What do you think that exactly means? What's the Lord saying here? Like, be friends with the mammon of unrighteousness. And why is he saying that? And then more broadly, because he seems to be talking about in terms of, like, economics, Right? Like doing business with people who are not part of your group.

[Casey]

Yeah, that's the first part of this context that maybe we need to really emphasize here is some people would take make friends with a mammon of unrighteousness to Be like, hey, do whatever you have to do to fit in, essentially. But this context is he's talking about how to run the businesses of the church, and mammon is money, essentially. So I think what he's basically giving them permission to do is to reach out to the people in Independence, in Missouri who might not be living the same standards that they're living. So it's okay to, you know, go into business with someone who doesn't live the word of wisdom. Might be a modern way to interpret this or to have your hotel be open on Sunday or something like that. Those are some practical choices that sometimes you have to make when you're a Latter day Saint working in the world of finance. Finance or business. The second thing, he does mention this in the New Testament. The context is a little bit confusing, but it seems like here he's trying to prep them to say, don't keep yourselves too separate from the rest of the community. That this business venture, which is designed to consecrate all the resources that the saints have in order to build bigger and better things, does have the possibility of isolating the saints from the people around them. And everybody knows that the saints in Missouri get into trouble. They get into trouble partially because their neighbors aren't very good or tolerant people, but they also get into trouble because the saints tend to assert an air of superiority over the people around them. We have some historical sources that indicate that the early Saints were going up to the Missourians and Independence and telling them, like, they either shape up or ship out, like they need to join the church or the Lord is going to sweep them off the land.

[Scott]

That's not making friends.

[Casey]

It reminds me of, you know, when. When members of our church used to go to the Kirtland Temple when it was owned by community of Christ and basically say, like, you need to join our church or the Lord is going to get rid of you. When in reality, the way that we got the Kirtland temple was much less confrontational. We used financial means to do so, and it meant that there was, you know, no bloodshed, no violence. A major religious site was transported, transferred from one denomination to another with no blood being spilled, which is a huge, huge deal. We can be creative in the way that we accomplish things.

[Scott]

The exchange of the Kirtland Temple between these two religious groups was because we're friends, because we like each other, because we trust each other. Those relationships had been built. The context here in this particular revelation is there's a group of people who we know will eventually drive these Saints out of Jackson, Jackson county and eventually out of the state of Missouri. And the Lord is giving them a heads up here in verse 22, like be friends so they don't destroy you. That's his language. They will not destroy you if you're friends with them. Do business together, help. Don't make them, yeah. Feel like you guys are some separate group, separate class of citizens and you're too good for the locals. Like, don't put that air off, it's going to be bad for you.

[Casey]

That's the immediate context, I would say. The application that comes today also comes in the idea of making friends with the mammon of our and righteousness means we can adopt practices and maybe methodology from businesses. Sometimes this is a major criticism of the church. Like I remember someone saying that we were a church with the soul of a corporation because you go to church headquarters and they've got like focus groups or marketing and everybody's wearing like a, you know, business style things just because we don't walk around in robes, you know, holding the scriptures and reading them. But sometimes we operate more like a corporation isn't bad. The Lord is saying, just find the best tools anywhere you can and use them. So if focus groups or targeted advertising or investing in mutual funds allows you to obtain more resources to build up the kingdom of God, go for it. Okay? And feel free to adapt those methods. Because sometimes the way the church blurs the line between the way ecclesiastical organizations structure and the way business organizations are structured or operate does make people uncomfortable. But the Lord is essentially saying here, you know what, go for it. See how they do things and adopt those methods so that we can get more done. And you have to admit, we're pretty good at that. You know, I've read Clayton Christensen's the Mormon Way of Doing Business. The truth is like the Harvard Business School has a lot of Latter Day Saints there. And those people are pretty effective at what they do. And when you run down the current leadership of the church, you have people that, that come from pastoral or educational backgrounds, but you also have people that come from corporate or business backgrounds and they're getting the job done right. You might have an apostle who comes from a corporate background who's not the most inspiring speaker, but behind the scenes he knows how to make decisions and organize people and get the best out of the people that he works with. If that comes from his business background, that's great. He doesn't have to be an expert in every verse of Spirit scripture in order to bring to bear a Set of skills that will help build the Kingdom of God.

[Scott]

That's right, yeah. Consecration is about bringing your talents, giving your might, mind and strength to the Kingdom of God. And that might be unique, like you're saying, it might be business skills that might be. All manner of skills that could be. Bring it. See if that can help build the Kingdom of God. And in this case, like section 82 is being very, very clear that it's not only okay, but actually really essential that the Church becomes involved in commercial business interests and enterprises. Right. In order to build the Kingdom of God like this has to happen. So that's going to require a full suite of human skills, not just ecclesiastical skill set, but a lot of different skills. So I like where you took that.

[Casey]

Let's ask another question here too, but I want to bring this one up in verse seven. Now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge. Go your ways and sin no more. But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. That can be strong medicine. You could interpret this as saying, like, if you sin again, all your sins come back to you. And I don't think he's saying all your sins, but is he saying that, for instance, all your sins linked to a particular idea come back to you, like one drink? If you're a former alcoholic, Are you an alcoholic again? Or how do you interpret that?

[Scott]

Yeah, you run through all the different scenarios and they don't quite make sense, right? Like I've sinned 7,284 times, I've been fully forgiven of all those sins, and then I sin again. Do all those sins come rushing back? Is that what he means by the former sins return? Or is it categorical like you're saying? Right. Is it, well, you had a problem with drinking or you have a problem in this case, the context here was forgiveness, right? Like they had just forgiven each other for some tense, some interpretation, personal tensions between leaders of the Church. And he says, good job, I have forgiven you. Now please don't go sin anymore, because under that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return. So is it this idea of, like, if you dig up those old grudges now that you've forgiven each other, if you bring it back up, like it's just going to cause problems again? I think that's one interpretation that might be fair in this context. The words trip me up, just like verse six trips me up. By the way, verse six, six says the anger of God kindleth against the inhabitants of the earth. And none doeth good, for all have gone out of the way. Like, that trips me up, Casey. Like, yes, yes, there are people that do good. Like, my wife is amazing. She does good all the time. Like, she is so good. I'm certain there were people in 1832 that were doing good. I kind of wonder here if the Lord's hyperbole is at play, if there's some hyperbole here in saying, like, everyone needs repentance. If that's what he said saying in verse six, 100%, I'm totally on board with that. Everyone has gone out of the way in some way. And in verse seven, please stop sinning. Like, if you. If you sin again, then your former sins return. Like, have we not resolved that? Like, if, if you go back to the former sins, then the old ones seem to come back to. Like, I don't think it's literal. I don't think he means that if you sin today, then all your past sins come rushing back. Or even the same cat category of sins. Let's say that you had a problem with pornography or you had a problem with shoplifting. You have a problem with whatever. I don't think he's saying that. If you look again, then all your past progress you've made is wiped out and you're back to square one. I don't think he's saying that you.

[Casey]

Have to distinguish between you made a mistake and you gave up. Because a lot of times you'll have a kid who's making progress and then he'll slip up, basically, and he'll assume, oh, does this mean all my progress is wiped out? And you have to essentially say, no, it's not all wiped out, but the potential is there. If you give up, you're always going to be a little bit vulnerable to this. So as long as you look at the situation and assess and say, I'm not going to do this again, no, your former sins don't return. But if a person just gives up and decides they're going to do whatever they want to, they can fall as far back as they have and maybe even further if they don't repent and remedy the situation. So it's kind of like telling an alcoholic, you can't go to those kinds of parties anymore, or you can't hang out in bars anymore because you've overcome a very serious sin. But if you even dip your toes into those waters again, the possibility that it'll all wash back into your life is really there. And maybe that's what the Lord's referring to, but he's using kind of extreme language here to share that idea.

[Scott]

It reminds me of a awesome conference talk. It might have been his last conference talk that Elder Richard G. Scott gave. Or he talked about the Stripling warriors and how their dads had buried their swords. Remember this talk? And he. He talked about how their dads had had a vulnerability. They had a serious vulnerability toward violence. And because of their vulnerability, which their sons did not share, their dads could not go to war again, but their sons could. They buried their weapons deep. And I just remember Elder Scott talking about this idea that some sin is going to create lifetime vulnerabilities. It doesn't mean you can't be forgiven of it, but it does mean you're going to have a vulnerability for that kind of sin the rest of your life. And so like you said, don't go back to the bar. It's going to be very difficult for you to avoid the temptation because you have a vulnerability. Is that what the Lord's talking about here in verse seven? I don't know, but I think that warning is still well placed. Heal this relationship and move on. I think there's lots of ways to interpret verse seven.

[Casey]

It's clear that the Lord is giving a pertinent warning which is just, hey, don't dip your toe into those waters again because there's a possibility you might fall into the pool.

[Scott]

In criminal justice, isn't it's called recidivism. Recidivism, this idea. Idea that criminals can go back to their former life once they're released from. From prison. And it's like, yeah, recidivism is a thing with sin, particularly the more addicting that sin may have been, the vulnerability to going back to it is greater. Therefore, you must be more vigilant. All right, Casey, last C here for section 82, the consequences. What flows out from this revelation?

[Casey]

Within days of this revelation being received, William W. Phelps and Sidney Gilbert draft the bond or the legal contract for the members of the United Firm. And Sidney Gilbert and Noel K. Whitney were appointed as the financial agents to act in the name of that firm for their respective branches. And although the United Firm has pretty simple beginnings, primarily just being a group governing a mercantile store in one location and a print shop in Missouri, the councils made it a policy that their regulatory scope would also include additional special business that occurred in either branch of the firm. Thus, the United Firm brought About by section 78 and 82 constitutes the beginning of the corporate management of the Church's financial and commercial interests. So all the stuff that sort of stirs up controversy today where the Church has a stake in some commercial ventures, sort of starts here with a united firm and is laid down in the Revelations. And sometimes people that get really upset about the Church operating in this way aren't understanding our origins or specifically the revelations that the Lord has given and the direction he's given us to kind of manage the building up of the Kingdom of God, the progression of the church. Here.

[Scott]

Here are the foundational revelation sections 78 and 82 that show that having commercial interests and being involved in business and joint business ventures like this are part of the Zion building program. Now, unfortunately, we should tell the aftermath of this too, that this united firm, which the Lord said could be everlasting, his language only lasted two years. There's a couple reasons for this, a couple complicating factors during this two years, year period that put a pretty strong strain on the firm, including, for instance, Missouri mobs. That'll do it. Pressing debt and greedy church members. So in April 1834 in DNC 104, the Lord announced that he was dissolving this united firm ultimately because he said, some of my servants have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness and with feigned words. However, it only dissolves the joint stewardships of the men involved. It importantly does not dissolve the corporate management of the Church's financial and commercial interests. Like that's going to continue. Right though the organizational structures and methods for doing Church corporate business ventures is going to evolve over the years and not quite look like this original united firm. Those principles stay firmly in place, no pun intended. Like, those principles are going to be that upon which we build what you see today in the Church's amazing business success. So in that way, these revelations are really crucial. Although this original thing dissolves. Right. Importantly too, this does not end the need for Church leaders and members to consecrate their time, their talents, their money to advance the cause of Zion. In fact, the Church continues to thrive financially to today directly because Church leaders and members continue to consecrate today.

[Casey]

And it does kind of show that the law of consecration has a lot of flexibility built into it. Okay, we're going to have a firm for a little while that manages these interests. Then we're going to dissolve the firm. We're going to combine the orders. There's all kinds of interesting combinations that the tools given in the law of consecration can be used to further God's work. So not just one. One way to do things.

[Scott]

All right, section 83, Casey. Now we are going from the big ideas like a first presidency or the financial management of the church down to the everyday, aren't we?

[Casey]

The management of a family and how you take care of things. So from the highest levels of the church to the grassroots levels of the church, it shows that the Lord is concerned with every single aspect of how the church. Church affects us and how we integrate his teachings into our lives.

[Scott]

Let's do it. Let's get into section 83 here. Then give us the context here. What's going on with section 83.

[Casey]

This is still that trip that Joseph and Sidney took to Missouri in the spring of 1832 after they've had that horrible incident happen with the mob. Joseph smith received section 83 while he's in council with leaders of the church in Missouri. The revelation deals with the laws of the church, specifically the law of consecration, and how it was administered to women and children who had lost their husbands or fathers. Now, the question of how to administer the law of consecration was probably brought to the forefront in Joseph's mind because during his trip to Missouri, he makes a visit to a settlement consisting primarily of saints from Colesville, New York. These saints had traveled to Missouri and settled Kaw Township, which was about 12 miles away from Independence, Missouri. And you got to keep in mind these are some of Joseph's closest friends and earliest converts to the church. The Knight family, for instance, that we spent so much time talking about. They're part of this group. They're some of Joseph's dearest friends. In fact, when, when he visits the Colesville Saints, this is how he describes it. He says he received a welcome only known by brethren and sisters united as one in the same faith and by the same baptism and supported by the same Lord. Then he adds the Colesville branch in particular, rejoice as the ancient saints did with Paul. It is good to rejoice with the people of God. He loves these people and when he sees their temporal concern, concerns it's going to be natural that he's going to bring them up and make it the subject of inquiry to the Lord. Colville Saints, like we mentioned, have been involved in some of the most dramatic and important events in church history up to this point. They heed the call to gather to Ohio. But you'll remember Leman Copley, the guy whose land they're supposed to settle on, goes back on his promises that he's going to live the law of Consecration. That's in section 54, the doctrine and Covenants. And so they're commanded to relocate to Missouri. They make a long journey to Missouri at great sacrifice, and then they're there when Joseph Smith arrives in Missouri for the first time, too. That's commemorated in doctrine and covenants. 59. The other thing that we can see is that among this dedicated little group of saints, there are at least two widows. We know of one called Phoebe Crosby Peck, who has four children, and Anna Slade Rogers, who had a daughter. And both women had lost their husbands in 1829 before the law of consecration was revealed. And so it seems natural that Joseph's friendship with them may have led to him asking the Lord how the law of consecration relates to the widows and the fatherless, which, again, is dealt with here freshly. But dealing with and helping the widows and the fatherless is a theme that goes all the way back to the Old Testament. Isaiah talks a ton about this, and it seems to be a signature of the Lord and his concerns when he sees his servants down here on earth is that they make sure that they are keeping an eye on and taking care of the widows and the fatherless.

[Scott]

Yeah, section 42 mentioned taking care of the poor and the needy. And so this is now zooming in even more granular to the widows and the fatherless specifically. So this is the next level of granularity. And I wonder, too, if Edward Partridge wondered, you know, if he was doing it right, as the bishop who was meant to administer this, how can he best help them? So I'm sure Section 83 came as a great benefit to Bishop Partridge as well.

[Casey]

These are questions bishops still wrestle with today in every setting. It's just kind of a universal thing.

[Scott]

So let's see what the Lord says. Verse 1. Verily, thus saith the Lord, in addition to the laws of the Church concerning women and children, those who belong to the Church who have lost their husbands or fathers, here's his instruction. Verse 2. Women have claim on their husbands for their maintenance until their husbands are taken. And if they are not found transgressors, they shall have fellowship in the Church. And if they are not faithful, they shall not have fellowship in the Church. Yet they may remain upon their inheritances according to the laws of the land. Okay, so this is clearly, deeply, contextually, and embedded into the system at that time. They've received lands of inheritance according to the law of consecration of property. So if their husband dies, do they get to keep the land of their inheritance? The answer is yes. What if they are not in good fellowship in the Church? Yes, they still get to retain their land inheritances. Interesting questions they must have been asking at this time. Verse 4 what about the children? All children have claim upon their parents for their maintenance until they are of age. This kind of brings us to what our modern family proclamation says, doesn't it? Where the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve talk about children and parents and their relationship to each other. Where it says that but by divine design fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. So there you go. You have three expectations as fathers but preside, provide, protect. Those remain in force today, the proclamation says But Cayce, it seems like that's embedded right here in this section.

[Casey]

I teach classes on family. There's a class we do specifically called the Eternal Family that goes through the proclamation kind of line by line. And this is a little controversial because the idea that fathers are to preside, provide and to protect are in the family Proclamation. Now, I want to emphasize emphasize a couple things. The proclamation explains the role of fathers and mothers. But then it adds this sentence, which it seems like nobody reads to Fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Providing for families remains one of the most important expectations the Lord has for fathers. And it's not new really. The Apostle Paul this is 1 Timothy 5:8 if any provide not for his own and specifically for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. So the Lord's just stating his expectations here and restating them in the family proclamation and restating them by the leaders of the Church that fathers are expected to provide for their families. Now, there can be a number of interesting combinations as to how that plays out, but again, it's an expectation the Lord has and just to offer Recent Commentary Commentary this is D. Todd Christofferson in General Conference he said breadwinning is a consecrated activity. Providing for one's family, although it generally requires time away from the family, is not inconsistent with fatherhood. It is the essence of being a good father. Work and family are overlapping domains. This of course, does not justify a man who neglects his family for his career or the other extreme, one who will not exert himself and is content to shift his responsibility to others. The Scriptures say that the proclamation says that the current leadership of the Church says that. And in this situation it seems like we're dealing with individual adaptation which the proclamation also addresses too where situations like divorce or other circumstances might change typical family dynamics. Even in those situations, fathers are expected to do the best they can to provide for their family. So for instance, the General Hand handbook of the church lists a person who deliberately abandons family responsibilities, including a non payment of child support and alimony, as someone that's in danger of a membership council. And so even if there's been a divorce, your obligation as a father still remains in place. I'd also add here too that these words don't just mean money, they don't just refer to financial support.

[Scott]

Do you think in the Context of Section 83, it's only time talking about financial support. But the general principles can be broader.

[Casey]

It's financial support. That's the first thing we think of because everybody's got to eat. But I mean, it means involvement in a person's life. It means that you have to provide love and emotional support to your wife and to your kids. Like I went back once and for my family class reviewed what's the counsel that the leaders of the church have given to fathers? The most common common counsel given to fathers was something like this. And I'm just choosing Howard W. Hunter here because he said it succinctly. He was talking to fathers and he said you should express regularly to your wife and children your reverence and respect for her. Indeed, one of the greatest things a father can do for his children is to love their mother. And I would say love is part of that support too. Your obligations are financial, emotional, spiritual.

[Scott]

The word that is used here is kind of a curious word. In verse, verse 2, women have claim on their husbands for their maintenance. And then in verse four, all children have claim upon their parents for their maintenance until they are of age. It's an interesting word. Usually we use it in like a negative context, like high maintenance. But maintenance means keeping things running smoothly, right? You tune your car, you go for maintenance on your car, like regularly, like as a father, like you are responsible. As a husband, you're responsible like President Husband Hunter saying here to make sure that the relationship is running smoothly with your wife, that her needs are taken care of, et cetera. And for your children, making sure that things are running well. Maintenance. Are they clothed? Great. Do they have the support they need financially? Good. What about in other areas of their life? How are things running? Right. That'd be an important part of presiding is making sure that the maintenance is. Everything's maintained, maintained well in your home. And in the case where fathers die or they're no longer part of the picture, then there needs to be some adjustments made, which is exactly what section 83 is getting at here. Right.

[Casey]

That leads us right to the next two verses, which say after that they have claim upon the church, or in other words, upon the Lord's storehouse, if their parents have not wherewith to give them inheritances.

[Scott]

Speaking of the children here.

[Casey]

Yeah, speaking of the children, referring back to them. And the storehouse shall be kept by the consecration. The church and widows and orphans shall be provided for as also the poor. This is the. Hey, if anything goes wrong, father and mother can't provide for the family, or there's some sort of situation like the loss of a father or the loss of a mother that makes it especially difficult for someone to provide for their family, then the church steps in and can offer assistance and help. Now, I'll point out that one of the first things that you, church leader, will do if your family is struggling financially is ask you to seek out help from other sources, too. Government support and other programs and things like that. But the church is there to make sure that everybody's fed and housed and has clothing on their back and a warm bed to sleep in. That's one of the biggest things that we've been asked to do.

[Scott]

So the first line of responsibility being laid out here is that husbands are to provide for their wives and children. And if there ever is a circumstance where that's not, not possible, then line two, the church comes in to help here. Right. It's family first, church second in terms of financial support.

[Casey]

And part of the financial support for the church can be providing you with the means and resources to seek out financial support. Like, in my word, we have experts in government programs who could take somebody and say, hey, let's go and have a look at how we get you enrolled in. In WIC or something like that. That's Women, Infant and Children, a government program to help provide for you there, too. But the church also has storehouses. It has things like Deseret Industries and other means to try and provide for families, especially if they're really struggling. We've mentioned this a couple times, but other than the bishop and the Relief Society president, in most wards, you don't know how much of this stuff goes on behind the scenes. There's just a lot. Like maybe if you're on the ward council, you're aware of how much this happens. But it is a very big, big responsibility for the church.

[Scott]

Yeah. What I love about section 83 here is that it's showing how serious the Lord is about taking care of widows and children. Like you said, this is a theme that goes all the way back to the Old Testament. There are laws in the law of Moses on how to take care of widows and children. It seems the consistent theme in script Scripture. The Lord really cares that the most vulnerable amongst us are taken care of. We see that in the ministry of Jesus. We see that all over. And so it's no surprise here that section 83 is again echoing those same principles of taking care of them. Anyone that's listening to this that may be in a situation where you don't have support from family, you have some serious financial need, like do not hesitate to go talk to your bishop and let them help you evaluate your circumstance and talk about what might be the next best steps forward, if church resources are best, or if there's other resources that can help. This is built into why there is a Church of Jesus Christ, right to help people who are not in a position to be able to help themselves. So you can do that shamelessly and fully, throwing yourself upon the graces of the Lord's Church here, and trust in the guidance and counsel of the bishop that he gives you in that circumstance.

[Casey]

And to go back to an earlier theme, the support that the church offers also isn't just financial. A large part of the work of the church is to provide a surrogate family to its members, but especially to those who've lost family members. The family proclamation that we mentioned earlier contains a phrase that says disability, death and other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation, and then says extended family should lend support when needed. But that extended family can be grandma, grandpa, aunts and uncles. It can also be elders, quorum presidents and Relief Society presidents, and young women and young men presidents. The covenants of consecration allow the church to form a large extended family that can offer support if a parent is missing or if a family is dealing with other challenging circumstances. And again, a large part of the work of the church is to help those people. In an average word council meeting, you spend a long time talking about people that are more vulnerable for whatever reason, divorce or disability or anything. Elder Christofferson, just to continue his talk, spoke specifically to those who are dealing with the challenge of living without a father in their life. He said this to children whose family situation is troubled. We say you yourself are no less for that. Challenges are at times an indication of the Lord's trust in you. He can help you directly and through others to deal with what you face. You can become the generation, perhaps the first in your family, where the divine patterns that God has ordained for families truly take shape and bless all the generations and after you. So in our day, we're dealing with not only widowhood, which of course was a common thing back in Joseph Smith's time, but we're dealing with divorced families, we're dealing with mixed faith marriages and a number of other circumstances. And it's imperative for the church to look after those who live in complicated family situations. My grandfather was killed in a car accident when my dad was very young and my grand grandmother struggled to take care of the family. I am grateful for the church members that reached out and helped them as they worked through this. I'm also pretty impressed with my dad, who's always had a job and had a job from the time he was little so that he could work to be self sufficient also. So I'm grateful for the church, but I'm also grateful for the principles of self reliance that the church teaches that allow us to help, but also allow people to help themselves.

[Scott]

Well said. Okay, controversies with this section, Casey, our day looks a little different than Joseph Smith's day. Can I start, Start out that way? Yeah. Our society is designed in a way today that seems much more amenable to women being able to work to help provide financially for their families. And so what about that right in our day? Like, how might we talk about that? Like, does the church teach that women should stay home with their children and not work and let dad go and do it all? Like, is that a teaching of the church? Let me ask that, number one. And then what do we say about homes where the mother is the primary breadwinner? What about that?

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So two kind of heavy modern applications of this. Like, what do we do with that?

[Casey]

This comes up a lot in eternal family classes. And I don't think it's controversial to say that fathers should be breadwinners for their families, that they should help provide. But some people take that idea to mean that women should never work outside the home or that a woman who has a career is sacrificing her family. Now, it is true that some leaders of the church have said that women should stay home with their children, particularly when they're very young. And I haven't heard that taught. Right. Recently by leaders of the church. More recently, we've heard leaders of the church kind of acknowledging these difficult choices. Because sometimes when women work, it's not out of desire, it's out of necessity, but sometimes it is out of desire. Like they want to contribute. They have talents and gifts. For me, it's yes, but there's a lot of judgment sometimes culturally, among this. Like, here's a talk. Quentin L. Cook dealt with this. He said, women are confronted with many options and need to prayerfully consider the choices they make and how those choices affect their family. And again, you can swap out women and put men in here and everything still works. But he goes on to say this. These are emotional, personal decisions. But there are two principles that we should always keep in mind. First, no woman should ever feel the need to apologize or feel that her contribution is less significant because she is devoting her primary efforts to raising and nurturing, nurturing children. Nothing could be more significant in Our Father in Heaven's Plan. And let me pause here and say I have had a number of women who were stay at home moms introduce it by saying, I'm just a mom. You know, like that isn't a huge deal. And sometimes in our drive to equalize treatment of men and women in the church, I think sometimes this is discouraged. I've had women come up to me in my classes, especially family classes, and sometimes say, hey, is it okay if I just want to stay home and raise my kids? Like, we've gone so far to the extreme that that's seen as a negative when it's very much a positive. If a person chooses to do that, it's a noble thing to do. And you should never consider yourself just a mom or just a housewife. That's an incredibly important and vital role. Here's the second thing. He says, we should all be careful not to be judgmental or assume the sisters are living less valiant if the decision is made to work outside the home. We rarely understand or fully appreciate people's circumstances. Husbands and wives should prayerfully counsel together, understanding they're accountable to God for their decisions. So if a woman works outside the home, either out of necessity or choice, he's saying, hey, back off and don't be judgmental. First of all, like you mentioned, Scott, the proclamation calls them equal partners in carrying out these roles. So women are expected to provide, preside and protect. If your kids are being attacked by a bear and you're a woman, you can't be like, that's not my job. I'm not going to deal with that. And we've already talked about how women have a co presiding role within a family. There are tons of families where women help provide. And in my family, my wife, I remember early on when she was pregnant with our first kind of said, we're going to have a baby and I need you to get a job because I need you to provide for us. I'm going to stay at home when the children are young. At the time I was in college and I was taking African history and bowling, I was just really enjoying my undergraduate experience. Having children made me focus up and get serious. And by the time the baby came, I had a viable career. And I was able to provide at the same time, too. Just to use my wife as an example, she's really gifted. She's a lighting designer, and she does theatrical lighting for plays. And at a certain point when our kids were getting a little bit older and were spending a lot of time in school, she came to me and said, I'd like to work, too. And we probably could have survived just on my salary. But she wanted to use her talents to bless and help others. And that's been a huge blessing in our life, too. And there might be weeks when I work all day and she's home with the family, and then we high five as I come in the door and she's on her way to a play because she mostly works at night. That's what works for us. It might be completely different in a different family. And I'm not going to be judgmental about how they fulfill the duties explained in the family proclamation. Just admire them for doing so.

[Scott]

Yeah, I love how Elder Cook put it, it's husband and wife. You guys counsel together, make a decision, making, making sure that it's a wise one, whatever you're going to do. But why do you think there's even, like, judgment in the church at all about this, Casey? Because, like, there's a lot of different cultural contexts outside of the church that nobody even bats an eye. If the woman works outside the home. That's like, almost like just normal. Does it have anything to do with past teachings by leaders of the church?

[Casey]

It could. And again, I'm not saying that those leaders of the church were wrong to say what they say, just saying that certain circumstances sometimes change. And circumstances can be very individual. I think for fathers and mothers. You've noted here that Elder Christofferson and Elder Cook both address the feelings of guilt and emotion that sometimes comes when a father or a mother has to leave the home to provide for themselves. Like, I feel guilty sometimes coming here to record this podcast, thinking maybe I should be out throwing the ball with my son or going on a bike ride with my daughters. But like Elder Christofferson said, this is a consecrated activity. I'M doing this to provide for my family. And my wife helps provide for my family too, but also helps contribute to the world and make the world a better place by using her talents as well. So let's just be cautious with this and recognize that times and circumstances can and do change. And we look to the current leaders of the church to take our cues from while honoring the past leaders of the church as well, for the good people that they were.

[Scott]

I really appreciated when I saw Elder Cook stand up in conference and say what you just quoted him saying. I think he's responding to that tension that we're in a different time, right? We're 20, 25. This is a different time and place than 1987. And so here we are like, like you said, what matters is what the current leaders of the church are saying to this particular context. And the principles haven't changed. The principles are. It's kind of like we've been talking with the law of consecration. The principles are take care of your family. As a husband and wife, you work together to do that. You are competent and trust in God's promptings. Be prayerful, do what you feel is best for your family. The end no judgment.

[Casey]

When we read the teachings of church leaders, we need to look for what what's timely, what applied to their time, and what's timeless. I think the council in section 83 is timeless. But when you look at the council leaders of the church, like, for instance, Brigham Young, you're going to find a lot of sermons on irrigation, which might be considered timely as well. We learn to separate those two as we study them closely and adhere to what they have to say. But the most important prophet in my mind is the current prophet and the current leadership of the church. And so I honor everybody involved here. I think our job is just to lift everybody where they're at, to look at them and say, how can I help? That's the real role of the church when it comes to families. So we've talked about controversies, Scott. What are the consequences of section 83 of the Doctrine and Covenants?

[Scott]

So where families are incomplete or where parents. Parents are not in a position to be able to fulfill their responsibilities. The church is designed, Section 83 says, to help provide a surrogate family, starting out with the most basic needs of financial and then going from there, right? To help provide for children, to raise them in the gospel, etc. So the church can provide goods and assistance as part of its storehouse of resources and also provide the skills of the members of the church to help and to build those who are most vulnerable. And by the church, let's be clear, Casey, we mean us. We mean the people listening this. We mean the people who are neighbors to these folks. Right. Who have time and talents to contribute. Yes. It's also to local bishoprics to take care of, especially in the more sensitive, maybe financial needs. For sure. Right. The bishop and the Relief Society president, Elders quorum president. We'll often. And work together to help people in those ways as well. And so when we say the church is to provide, we're talking about very much a local effort.

[Casey]

Well navigated. There's a lot of tricky issues in these sections, from the highest to the lowest levels of the church. But good, good counsel.

[Scott]

Really good. Well, Casey, as always, been a pleasure to be with you. We look forward to next week when we get to tackle another whopper that's kind of right up there with section 76 and terms of its, like, doctrinal significance. We're talking about Section 84, so buckle up.

[Casey]

All right, we'll see you then.