Church History Matters | Episode 154

D&C 104-105 – God’s People Tested with Money & Zion’s Camp
Hosts: Scott & Casey | Release Date: September 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, Scott and Casey examine the historical context and doctrinal significance of Doctrine and Covenants sections 104 and 105. These revelations came at a time of pressing financial crises, legal strife, and the humanitarian-historic challenge of Zion’s Camp. The discussion focuses on the Lord’s expectations regarding consecration, stewardship, church finances, and the collective readiness to build Zion, as well as the outcomes and lessons of Zion’s Camp. The hosts contextualize the revelations, explore their modern-day applications, and dig into controversies and takeaways that continue to resonate for Latter-day Saints.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Section 104 – Church Finances, Consecration & Stewardships

[00:44–58:15]

Historical Backdrop

• The United Firm (a cooperative venture between church leaders in Kirtland and Missouri) is facing an existential crisis:
  • Missouri's Latter-day Saints have been expelled from Jackson County; their properties and presses destroyed.
  • Legal and financial attacks continue in Kirtland (e.g., Dr. Philastus Hurlbut's lawsuits).
• Section 104 directs a reorganization: separating the United Firm into two orders (Ohio & Missouri) and dividing assets into individual stewardships.

Doctrinal Emphases

• Consecration & Broken Covenants

  • The Lord had intended the United Firm to be "everlasting," contingent on faithfulness (see v. 1–4).
  • Because of covetousness, broken covenants, and “feigned words,” the order was dissolved and members were cursed rather than blessed.
  • “He is now laying it on pretty heavy here … that the innocent among you may not be condemned with the unjust, and that the guilty among you may not escape.” — Scott [09:13]

• Stewardship, Ownership & Accountability

  • All things ultimately belong to God (v. 12–15): “Everything is God’s. I created all of it.” — Scott [16:34]; “There’s a huge difference between saying, look at everything I’ve accumulated and saying, look at all the things God has blessed me with. Now I’m going to use them to bless his other children.” — Casey [20:15]
  • The doctrine of stewardship is not communal ownership but individualized assignments, emphasizing agency and accountability.

• Generosity & The Poor

  • “The earth is full and there is enough and to spare”—frequently misunderstood to suggest license for waste, but the Lord’s intent is stewardship: “It’s not a scarcity of resources, but mismanagement … that causes most of the poverty and suffering in the world.” — Casey [21:32]
  • The poor are to be exalted and the rich made low—not through enforced equality, but through voluntary generosity and humility (v. 16).
  • Hoarding wealth brings severe spiritual consequences (v. 18): “These are strong words, Casey. He shall with the wicked lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.” — Scott [26:58]
  • Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is invoked: money is neutral, but its use reveals our character.

• Flexible, Principles-Based Organization

  • The United Firm is “proto-church government”—its structure adaptable, but the principles of stewardship and consecration are enduring.
  • Modern church finance is guided by these same principles, even with different organizational forms.
  • “Think of it as kind of a proto-church government … but the church government that we’re used to now uses the same financial principles.” — Casey [36:18]

• Purpose of Finances – Sacred vs. Secular Treasuries

  • Two treasuries are distinguished: a “sacred treasury” (for publishing scriptures and sacred purposes), and “another treasury” for other church operations.
  • Printing and disseminating the scriptures is highlighted as a paramount use of resources.
  • “Get the Word of God into the minds of the people, that’s paramount because that is what’s going to drive conversion most.” — Scott [49:09]
  • Emphasis on common consent, integrity, and careful record-keeping in church financial matters. [see handbook quotation, 53:20]

Modern Parallels & Principles

• Lessons about avoiding debt, saving for “a rainy day,” and church policies (e.g., President Hinckley’s well-known two financial principles):
  • “Live within your means. Don’t spend more than you receive, and set aside part ... for a possible rainy day. Oh, my goodness. ... it avoids so much misery, so much strife, so much sorrow.” — Casey [57:23]
• Debates over transparency, separation of sacred/secular funds, and integrity in church finance:
  • “Whenever anybody tries to say that the church is being underhanded or corrupt, the first question I ask is, well, who’s getting rich off this?” — Casey [59:01]
  • The systemic honesty expectation (e.g., temple recommend question) is central to the church’s checks and balances.

2. Section 105 – Zion’s Camp: Tested and Redirected

[69:33–124:36]

Zion’s Camp: Setting the Stage

• Approximately 200 Saints march 800 miles intending to reclaim Jackson County under the Governor’s promised escort, which falls through upon their arrival at Fishing River.
• The Lord responds with a revelation (section 105) addressing both immediate circumstances and deeper issues.

God’s Requirements & the Real Test of Zion

• Why Zion Cannot Be Redeemed—Yet
  • Zion (here, the return of Saints to their lands) cannot happen because:
    • The Saints have not learned obedience;
    • Evil persists among them;
    • They have not imparted of their substance to the poor;
    • They lack unity according to the celestial law (v. 3–5).
  • “The church was seeking a collective blessing ... the Lord is saying here that collective blessings require the collective living of celestial laws.” — Scott [75:54]
  • Modern application: “Water boils at 212 degrees ... to get the blessing of Zion, there is a threshold ... the saints had not yet collectively met.”
• Consecration and Charity at the Heart of Zion
  • Numerous anecdotes (e.g., Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball) illustrate problems with covetousness, half-hearted consecration, and intra-church disputes.
  • The fundamental lesson: the conquest of the heart is the true “redemption of Zion.” — Orson F. Whitney, quoted by Casey [101:53]

Endowment & Temple: Preparation for Zion

• The Lord pauses the redemption and points the Saints toward a new, essential step: the Kirtland Temple endowment.
  • The promised “endowment of power” is both spiritual and practical empowerment for future leadership and church expansion.
  • “The endowment is a critical part of the establishment of Zion.” — Casey [84:58]

Nonviolence, Peace, & the Lord’s “Army”

• The Lord explicitly requires nonviolent approaches: “I will fight your battles,” and directs the Saints to “sue for peace” and “make a proclamation of peace” — a striking directive given the tension and disappointment in the ranks.
  • “Several of the brethren apostatized because they were not going to have the privilege of fighting.” — William Cahoon, quoted by Scott [86:21]
  • “Raise up an ensign of peace ... do everything you can to try and avoid violence.” — Casey [109:22]
  • The vision: a redeemed, formidable Zion whose banners are “terrible” not for war, but for righteous unity and influence (“armies” sanctified and sanctifying).

Historical Fulfillment – The Prophecy to Jackson County

• Prophecy that “not many years hence” the enemies of the Saints in Jackson County would suffer destruction is linked to the devastation there during and after the Civil War.
  • “Virtually depopulated ... a scene of utter desolation with only ... a lonely chimney.” — Eyewitness George D. Miller, quoted by Scott [91:33]
  • The wicked punish the wicked, rather than the Saints being required to wage war.

Was Zion’s Camp a Failure?

• The ostensible purpose (reclaiming Jackson County via state escort) did not succeed, leading to a sense of disillusionment for some (e.g., David Whitmer), but greater depth of experience and leadership formation for others.
  • “It’s more complicated than that.” — Scott [110:33]
• Notable Reflection:
  • “What did we do? We gained an experience that we never could have gained in any other way.” — Wilford Woodruff [116:28]
  • “He could not organize his kingdom ... unless he took them from a body of men who had offered their lives.” — Brigham Young [124:36]
  • “... had I not gone up with Zion’s camp, I should not have been here today.” — Wilford Woodruff [116:28]
  • President Dallin H. Oaks: "According to its ostensible purpose, Zion’s camp was a failure. ... but ... it was not a failure." [120:20]
  • Modern application: “We, too, will be tested ... and sometimes you don’t even know they’re tests.” — Elder Bednar (quoted) [120:20]
  • “It’s not the events ... it’s how they chose to react to them that made the big difference.” — Casey [112:49]

Lasting Legacy & Consequences

• Zion’s Camp becomes the crucible from which church leadership is drawn:
  • 9 of the original 12 apostles and all 7 presidents of the Seventy were Zion’s Camp veterans.
• The revelation and its aftermath impelled Joseph Smith to contemplate succession and construct new governing quorums, laying a foundation for the church’s next era.
  • “Now the Lord has got his 12 and his 70, and there will be other quorums of 70s ... who have made their sacrifices and their offerings ... will make them hereafter.” — Joseph Young (recounting Joseph Smith) [128:23]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Financial Stewardship:

  • “There’s a huge difference between saying, look at everything that I’ve accumulated and saying, look at all the things God has blessed me with. Now I’m going to use them to bless his other children.” — Casey [20:15]

• On Covetousness & Consequences:

  • “He is now laying it on pretty heavy here ... that the innocent among you may not be condemned with the unjust, and that the guilty among you may not escape.” — Scott [09:13]

• On Prosperity & Generosity:

  • “Money isn’t good or bad. It’s what a person chooses to do with it.” — Casey [25:46]
  • “Those who give of their abundance ... will find themselves rewarded ... with blessings in the next life.” — Scott [26:58]

• On Zion’s Criteria:

  • “The Lord is saying here that collective blessings require the collective living of celestial laws.” — Scott [75:54]

• On the Real Redemption:

  • “The redemption of Zion is more than the purchase or recovery of lands … it is the conquest of the heart.” — Orson F. Whitney, quoted by Casey [101:53]

• On Zion’s Camp, Aftermath & Learning:

  • “Let the brethren be contented ... if you have trials and must see hard times, learn to acknowledge the hand of the Lord in it all.” — Brigham Young [112:49]
  • “It’s not the events. ... It’s how [you] chose to react ... that made the big difference.” — Casey [112:49]
  • “We gained an experience that we never could have gained in any other way.” — Wilford Woodruff [116:28]

• A Modern Framing:

  • “The test is always the same ... Will we do whatsoever the Lord our God will command us.” — (Elder Bednar, as quoted by Scott) [120:20]
  • “How you respond is just as important as what happens to you. In fact, that’s the only thing you really have control over.” — Casey [123:35]

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Key Segment | |------------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 00:44–09:13 | The need to reorganize the United Firm—financial context | | 09:13–16:34 | Broken covenants; Lord’s rebuke; covetousness | | 16:34–21:32 | Stewardship; All belongs to God; mindset shift | | 21:32–26:58 | Enough & to spare; pitfalls of wealth | | 26:58–32:09 | Consequences of hoarding wealth; parable of the rich man| | 36:18–42:05 | Flexible organization; focus on scripture/dissemination | | 47:19–54:59 | Sacred/secular treasuries, church finance principles | | 57:23–58:08 | Debt, living within means, President Hinckley’s principles| | 69:33–75:54 | Zion’s Camp arrives; section 105 context | | 75:54–80:20 | Why Zion couldn’t be redeemed: law of celestial kingdom | | 80:20–84:58 | “Endowment of power”; purpose and future preparations | | 86:21–88:06 | Zion’s Camp response—disappointment, nonviolence | | 91:33–94:21 | Fulfillment of prophecy—destruction in Civil War | | 110:33–116:28 | Was Zion’s Camp a failure? Lessons and reflections | | 116:28–120:02 | Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Levi Hancock’s accounts| | 120:20–123:35 | Modern application—ongoing tests of faith and obedience | | 124:36–128:23 | Legacy: new leadership, succession, aftermath |

Conclusion & Next Steps

Scott and Casey conclude by tying the financial and spiritual trials of 1834 to timeless principles: the demand for faithful stewardship, generosity, unity, and readiness for collective blessings. Zion’s Camp becomes both a failed venture and a profound crucible for leadership, its lessons echoing forward into every trial of faith. The episode sets the stage for the emergence of modern church governance (sections 106–108), fueled by the hard-won unity and experience of those who marched to Zion—and learned its true cost.

For Further Listening / Next Episode:
D&C 106–108: Formation of the Quorum of the Twelve, Council of the Seventy, and further church expansion.

Bonus Content: Deep-dive interview with historian Matt Godfrey on the history of Zion’s Camp.