163 - D&C 118-120 CFM - The 12 Apostles Mission & The Law of Tithing - E42B October 13-19

Summary

Church History Matters Podcast – Episode 163:

D&C 118–120 – The 12 Apostles Mission & The Law of Tithing (E42B) – October 13–19
Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Scott & Casey (Scripture Central)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into Doctrine and Covenants sections 118, 119, and 120—three short but massively consequential revelations in Latter-day Saint history. Scott and Casey walk through the historical context, doctrinal developments, controversies, and enduring legacy of:

• The dramatic call and mission of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to the British Isles (D&C 118)
• The inception and evolution of the law of tithing (D&C 119)
• The establishment of the council responsible for distributing tithing funds (D&C 120)

The conversation explores the redemptive aftermath of apostasy, the challenges of fulfilling divine commands amid mortal peril, and the often-misunderstood lineage from consecration to modern tithing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Section 118: The Reconstitution & Foreign Mission of the Twelve

Context & Fallout of the Kirtland Apostasy

• Major apostasy rocked the Quorum of the Twelve between 1837–38. Five of twelve apostles had either left or were under suspicion—among them, Luke and Lyman Johnson, John F. Boynton, William E. McLellin, and William Smith.
• Joseph Smith sought directly from the Lord how to revitalize the quorum and continue the missionary work, leading to five revelations in one day, July 8, 1838.

The Revelation's Content & Specificity

• The Lord explicitly instructs:

  • "Let a conference be held immediately."
  • Replace fallen apostles; name new ones (John Taylor, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards).
  • The Apostles are to depart on April 26, 1839, from the temple site in Far West, Missouri ("on the building spot of my house").

  "Wilford Woodruff is later going to say, this is the only revelation I know of that had a day and a date attached to it specifically for fulfillment." – Casey [07:04]

Obstacles & Dramatic Fulfillment

• In the intervening months, the Missouri Mormon War erupts, the Saints are violently expelled, and an extermination order is issued; Far West becomes extremely dangerous.

• Both Latter-day Saints and their mob opponents know of the revelation’s specificity. Anti-Mormons use it to taunt church members, challenging the prophecy’s legitimacy.

  “If the apostles come, they will get murdered. They dare not come to take their leave here. And that's like all the rest of Joe Smith's prophecies." – Captain Bogart, Far West antagonist [10:00]

• Despite the real threat, in the pre-dawn hours of April 26, 1839, the Twelve and supporters—including newly called apostles—secretly fulfill the revelation:

  • Ordaining new apostles on the temple site
  • Singing hymns
  • Rolling a cornerstone of the temple
  • Escaping undetected

  "We felt that the Lord God had given the commandment, and we had faith to go forward and accomplish it, feeling that it was his business whether we lived or died in its accomplishment." – Wilford Woodruff [11:51]

• Mic drop aftermath: Theodore Turley, who had prophesied the Saints would fulfill their task, informs skeptical former members in Far West—leaving them speechless. [14:00]

Consequences: The British Mission

• The British Isles mission transforms the church, resulting in:

  • Tens of thousands of British converts and a lasting demographic legacy in Utah and the American West.
  • Critical leadership for subsequent generations: John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, etc.
  • By 1851, there were three times as many Saints in Britain as in Utah; most Utah Saints were recent British immigrants.

  "It's going to be massively successful, and it's going to influence the Church forever going forward." – Scott [18:34]

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Section 119: The Law of Tithing—Origins, Meaning, and Controversies

Historical Background & Financial Crisis

• The Saints, reeling from Kirtland financial collapse and legal debts, urgently need a sustainable financial system.
• Previous attempts included a proposed “tithe” of 2% of net worth (to be adjusted annually as needed)—a very different framework from modern practice.

The Revelation’s Content

• Two “tithings” are commanded:

  1. Surplus Consecration: All surplus property is to be given to the bishop.
  2. Standing Law: After that, 1/10 of annual "interest" (ambiguous term) to be paid perpetually.

  “In the early church, the term tithe was not always associated with the amount of 10%... Part of the purpose of section 119 was to outline how much of a tithe should be for the members of the church." – Casey [20:48]

• Early explanation: Bishop Edward Partridge wrote tithing meant 10% of the hypothetical annual interest earned by one’s net worth (assuming a 6% interest rate), not 10% of income per se [30:30].

Controversies & Misunderstandings

Did Tithing Replace the Law of Consecration?

• Modern section heading suggests tithing replaced consecration due to failure, but Scott and Casey (and scholar Steve Harper) challenge this reading:

  • The text shows tithing is a subset or adaptation of consecration, not a replacement. Consecration continues as a lived principle, particularly in its holistic sense (time, talents, offerings).

    “The Doctrine and Covenants doesn’t say [tithing replaced consecration]... the Lord adds, in verse four, a second tithing on top of that first consecration." – Scott, quoting Steve Harper [36:07]

• In present practice, only the standing law of 10% of income is required, whereas the initial surplus consecration was for those building “Zion” in Missouri.

Evolution of "10% of Interest" to "10% of Income"

• The shift from “interest” to income (and how “interest” is defined) was organic:

  • Early Saints used a complex formula involving hypothetical investment returns

  • By Nauvoo-era temple construction, tithing comes to mean 10% of income, partly for practical reasons as Saints’ economic situations change in Utah and the 20th century.

    “By the 1840s... this was simplified to a requirement to pay one tenth of their income.” – Casey [47:19]

• Official doctrine today: “We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – First Presidency, 1970 (quoted at [49:45])

Lasting Consequences

• The law of tithing has made possible the global expansion of the church and its programs, as outlined in the following section.

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Section 120: The Council on the Disposition of the Tithes

Context & Organization

• Revealed the same day as the other two sections.
• Establishes that a council—including the First Presidency, presiding Bishopric, and High Council (now, the Quorum of the Twelve)—directs the use and disposition of church funds.

Operation and Legacy

• This system, as described by Elder David Bednar (‘The Windows of Heaven’, 2013), is characterized by:

  • Simplicity, accountability, living within means, and a reserve for unforeseen needs.
  • Funds are distributed for temples, chapels, missionary work, scripture publication, education, humanitarian efforts, and more.

  “I marvel at the clarity and brevity of these two revelations in comparison to the complicated financial guidelines... used in so many organizations and governments.” – Elder David Bednar [58:20]

Modern Adaptation

• The makeup of the council has shifted over time from the Missouri Stake High Council to the Quorum of the Twelve, as general leadership requirements increased.

Personal & Spiritual Impact

• Principles of tithing have been pivotal for generations of Latter-day Saints, especially those in financial distress.

• The law is seen as a means to develop faith, discipline, and participate in the lord’s work.

  “Tithing is the Lord’s way of making us budget... it seemed like if they would just make the leap of faith, there’d be a job interview or an opening... I just gained a strong testimony of this principle and that it’s a way the Lord lets us tangibly demonstrate our faith.” – Casey [59:54]

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the British Mission’s Impact:

  "If you walk down the street in Salt Lake, say, in the 1850s, you're more likely to hear an English accent than an American accent." – Casey [16:36]

• On Fulfilling Revelation in the Face of Persecution:

  "We felt that the Lord God had given the commandment, and we had faith to go forward and accomplish it, feeling that it was his business whether we lived or died." – Wilford Woodruff [11:51]

• On Financial Law in the Church:

  “The law of consecration can't be repealed. We're asked to live it in the temple. It's one of the basic covenants…” – Casey [37:21]

• On Modern Tithing Interpretation:

  “We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly.” – First Presidency (quoted by Scott) [49:45]

• On Consecration in Contemporary Life:

  “My wife gives at least one night out of seven to take care of the young women... that should be considered consecration, too.” – Casey [42:27]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Opening and Historical Context for Section 118: [00:00–04:20]
• Specific Command and its Perilous Fulfillment: [07:04–14:57]
• The British Mission’s Demographic Consequences: [16:40–18:34]
• Financial Crisis & Origins of Tithing Law: [19:30–24:14]
• Explaining Dual "Tithings" in 1838: [29:05–31:49]
• Controversies about Consecration vs. Tithing: [33:41–38:07]
• Shift to Modern Tithing Understanding: [43:59–50:26]
• Section 120 & the Council's Continuing Role: [52:43–59:54]

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The hosts maintain a spirit of honest inquiry and deep appreciation for the faith and sacrifices of early and modern Saints. The episode is marked by moments of storytelling panache (“mic drop moment” [14:57]), scholarly humility (citing Steve Harper's research), and practical wisdom about Church administration. They encourage listeners to see tithing as both an ancient and modern principle of sacrifice and community building, alive in both finances and daily consecration.

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Summary

Sections 118–120 emerge as some of the Doctrine and Covenants’ most consequential instructions—charting the Church’s path through perilous times and shaping its future through courageous leadership, financial discipline, and enduring covenants of consecration. The mission to the British Isles saves and transforms the Church; the law of tithing and its governing council empower the Church’s global humanitarian and spiritual reach. The episode ends by looking forward to the Liberty Jail revelations, another story of faith under fire.

Transcript

[A]

There's going to be tens of thousands of Latter Day Saints over the next couple decades that come into the Church because of this mission, because they convert.

[B]

So many people on this mission. And then for the next few decades, there's just this rich harvest of people coming from the British Isles that respond to the message of the restoration.

[A]

It's going to be massively successful, and it's going to influence the Church forever going forward.

[B]

This seems like a big enough deal that within his own lifetime, Joseph Smith decided it needed to be canon. It needed to be part of the Doctrine and Covenants.

[A]

Wow, that's dramatic.

[B]

It's very simple. But what a blessing it is to us and to the Church and to millions of people around the world. Hello, Scott.

[A]

Hello, Casey. We're back.

[B]

We're back doing the second half of sections 115 to 120. We're going to start in section 118, which is one of those sections where the context and the consequences really matter. There's some really specific stuff in section 118 about what's supposed to happen and how it is fulfilled. Comes about in an interesting way.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. Then sections 119 and 120 are very consequential as they set up something that members of the Church know today as the law of tithing and the counsel of the disposition of tithes, meaning those in charge of deciding how tithing is used. So some very consequential revelations in terms of impact on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[B]

So these are all a big deal because the events set off in section 118 have a huge impact on me, my family, the mission of the 12, section 119 is something we still deal with on a daily basis, the law of tithing. So should we dive in?

[A]

Yeah, let's do it, man. So, okay, so set the scene then for section 118. What's going on? What crucial context do we need to know?

[B]

So the context Here is Section 118 was one of five revelations received on July 8, 1838, by Joseph Smith, all received in the same day. The revelation came in response to Joseph's plea, show us thy will, O Lord, concerning the twelve. And the revelation came at a time when members of the quorum of the 12 had kind of been swept up in some of the dissension that overwhelmed many members during the Kirtland apostasy. That happens around 1837, 1838. So, for instance, two apostles, this is Luke Johnson and John F. Boynton, renounced the church and were subsequently excommunicated in December of 1837. And then at a quarterly conference held in. In April 1838, David W. Patton reported that he could not recommend apostles Lyman Johnson or William McClellan, who were also part of the dissension in Kirtland. And Elder Patton also expressed some concerns about William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, who was a member of the quorum of the 12. This is his words for something which he had heard respecting his faith in the work. If you do the numbers there, we're talking five members of the Quorum of the twelve. And this must have been pretty painful for Joseph Smith. But the work needed keep going and move on. And so the church needed to start to consider calling new apostles to replace the ones that were lost Amid this turmoil with some members of the 12, there were encouraging events from other members of the Quorum. For instance, you remember Heber C. Kimball and Orson Hyde completed a successful mission to England from June 1837 to May of 1838. And Thomas B. Marsh accepted the call to repentance given to him in doctrine and Covenants 1:12. And other apostles, such as Brigham Young and David Patton remained firm in the work. So doctrine and covenants 1:18 begins the process of rebuilding the quorum of the 12 after the losses that happened during the Kirtland apostasy. And it also sets up one of the most important events in the history of the church. That is the 1840 mission of the 12 to the British Isles, which is huge. This, in some ways, saves the church. And so doctrine and covenants 18 is the call for them to go to the British Isles, added to the doctrine covenants in 1876 under Orson Pratt's supervision. But Brigham Young is providing the direction here. So a crucial section that does a lot and causes a lot to happen.

[A]

Wow. Okay. So the fallout of the Kirtland apostasy has created some need to rebuild the Quorum of the twelve apostles. That continuity then continues on with the call for them to go to England. We're going to be introduced to some names in section 118 that become legends in our church's history. So. All right, well, let's dive into the content then of the Revelation. Verse one begins like this. Verily, thus saith the Lord. Let a conference be held immediately. Let the 12 be organized, and let men be appointed to supply the place of those who are fallen. We're talking Luke and Lyman Johnson, John F. Boynton, William E. McClellan. So that's four right there. Maybe William Smith, William Smith is teetering at this time. Yeah, he's teetering. So, okay, let's continue. He says, verse 2. Let my servant Thomas, Thomas B. Marsh, remain for a season in the land of Zion to publish my word. Let the residue continue to preach from that hour. And if they will do this in all lowliness of heart, in meekness and humility and long suffering, I the Lord give unto them a promise that I will provide for their families. And an effectual door shall be opened for them from henceforth. And here comes the call. Verse 4. And next spring let them, the 12, depart to go over the great waters and there promulgate my gospel, the fullness thereof, and bear record of my name. Verse 5. He gets really specific. Not just next spring, but look at this. Let them take leave of my saints in the city of Far west on the 26th day of April. Next. Very specific. On the building spot of my house. So specific day and a specific location. Then verse six, final verse. And let my servant John Taylor, and also my servant John E. Page, and also my servant Wilford Woodruff, and also my servant Willard Richards be appointed to fill the places of those who have fallen and be officially notified of their appointment. Boom. There you go. So those four that fell, Luke and Lyman Johnson, John F. Boynton and William E. McClellan, are now replaced by. Have we heard these names before? John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards. So two future presidents of the church, one member that will become member of the First Presidency, Willard Richards, Johnny Page. He stays faithful for a while. After Joseph Smith's death, he is going to not continue faithful, right?

[B]

Yeah. I think he takes off and supports the Strangites, doesn't he?

[A]

I think he does, yeah.

[B]

But we're talking about the two witnesses of Carthage jail are called as apostles, right here. The two apostles that follow Joseph Smith up until the last moments of his life. So important people.

[A]

Absolutely. Okay, so third C. Casey. So controversies are there. Are there any controversies that come to mind?

[B]

A minor one, but maybe that's tied into consequences, too, which is this is. Wilford Woodruff is later going to say, this is the only revelation I know of that had a day and a date attached to it specifically for fulfillment. The 12 have to leave on their mission the next April. In fact, the 26th day of April next, on the building spot of my house, saith the Lord. So the Lord usually isn't that specific about things, you know, it will be brought to pass in my known due time, or this will be fulfilled. But this time he's actually saying this is where they need to leave from, and this is when they need to leave. And as the consequences, it's going to be difficult.

[A]

That seems like, no, no problem. But then what intervenes between July 1838 and April of 1839? I mean, now we're talking things like the Mormon Missouri War. We're talking about Liberty Jail, we're talking about the Saints being expelled from Missouri. Right. We're talking extermination order stuff. Right. I mean, this. All that's going to be happening in the intervening years to the point that next April it will be like a death sentence to go to Missouri and leave from your mission from that spot on that day. Right. Like, that's, that's what happens between here and there. Like, the stakes get really, really high in terms of fulfilling that prophecy. So what happens? Like, do you want to talk consequen? Is like, what do they do?

[B]

Yeah, you're right. Far west becomes anti Mormon central in the intervening year between the time the prophecy is given. And I don't. Prophecy, command, whatever you call it. And it seems like one debate they were having is, okay, they've been kicked out of Missouri. There's a literal extermination order. Like the Mormons must be treated as enemies and driven from the state, or if necessary, exterminated is the exact wording of that order. And leaving from Far west on the 26th day of April might mean they get killed. And the controversy at the time, which was debated among the leaders of the church, was, do we have to follow that commandment exactly if it means that we're going to get killed? And so that's a controversy. And their solution is interesting. It's innovative. It is.

[A]

And just to heighten the stakes a little bit here, the enemies of the Church in Far west knew about this revelation. Actually, like this had been circulated. They knew about the date, 26 April, and the place, the building spot of the temple. And so they started to boast that there was no chance, there was no way this is going to prove that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Now, we could debate whether that's a prophecy or a commandment or whatever, but there's this guy named Captain Bogart, Samuel Bogart.

[B]

He was.

[A]

He's talking to Theodore Turley. So Theodore Turley is one of the few church members who's allowed to stay back in Far west to help basically close out the Saints affairs, help everyone get out of there. So he's almost like immune, right? Like he's immune from the persecution, but that didn't mean that he was immune from their taunting. So one time, on the 5th of April, 1838, this is what Theodore Turley says. He said that Captain Bogart had him stand up in front of his, you know, all these mob folks and read section 118 in front of them. And then Captain Bogart said this, quote, then you as a rational man will have to give up Joseph Smith. Being a prophet, he and the 12 are now scattered all over creation. Let them come here if they dare, and if they do, they will be murdered. As that revelation cannot be fulfilled. You will now give up your faith, he said to Theodore Turley. At that point, Turley jumps to his feet and says, quote, in the name of God, that revelation will be fulfilled. The crowd laughs into scorn, and Bogard says, again, quote, if the apostles come, they will get murdered. They dare not come to take their leave here. And that's like all the rest of Joe Smith's prophecies. So that's kind of the stakes, right? Like, the enemies of the church are like, we're going to prove once and for all Joseph Smith's a false prophet.

[B]

That's a fair controversy. Right. But it's solved. In fact, let's go to the consequences, because that sort of is where this controversy gets resolved. But do they have to fulfill a commandment if it means they're going to get killed?

[A]

Would it be a big deal if they just left from Quincy, Illinois, which is where they were at the time? The point is to go to England and to teach the gospel there. Right. Does it really matter where they leave from? That's. You know, that's a good question.

[B]

Yeah. And that's part of the debate, right, is do they have to go from far west? They could still leave on the 26th day of April just from somewhere where people aren't making literal death threats against them.

[A]

Yeah, we have. We have Wilford Woodruff on record. He says this. He says President Brigham Young asked the quorum of the 12 like they're in Quincy, Illinois. He asked him, what do you want to do?

[B]

Here's.

[A]

Here's Wilford Woodruff, quote, when President Young asked the question of the twelve brethren, what will you do about this? The reply was, well, the Lord has spoken it, and it's for us to obey. We felt. Wilford Woodruff says now, we felt that the Lord God had given the commandment, and we had faith to go forward and accomplish it, feeling that it was his business whether we lived or died in its accomplishment. And so he says, we Started for Missouri. Oh, my work. So they literally go into Missouri, taking back roads, trying to stay undercover. On the 25th of April, okay. They get close to the temple lot, and so just when it turns midnight right now, it's officially April 26th. They literally go onto the temple lot of the Far West Temple. There they actually ordain Wilford Woodruff to be an apostle. And they sing a couple songs, which always makes me like. I'm like, don't sing. Why are you singing? Shh. But they sing like Adam on diamond. Oh, what else do they sing? I think there's another song they sing, and then they kind of look at each other like, are we good? They're like, I think we're good.

[B]

They do one more thing. They roll the stone into place at the southeast corner of the temple, and then they depart. So they actually roll one of the cornerstones up to recognize that they were there. And then on the way out of town. This is my favorite part of the story. Theodore Turley, who you'd mentioned earlier, had said the prophecy was going to be fulfilled. They're on their way out of town. They've gotten away with it. He stops at the home of Isaac Russell, who's a former missionary companion of his who had apostatized from the church. This is what later history compiled says. As the saints were passing away from the meeting, Brother Theodore Turley said to Johnny Page and Wilford Woodruff, stop a bit while I bid Isaac Russell goodbye. And knocking on his door, I called for Brother Russell. His wife answered, come in. It is Brother Turley. Russell replied, it is not. He left here two weeks ago and appeared quite alarmed. But on finding it was, Turley asked him to sit down. But he replied, I cannot. I shall lose my company. Who is your company? Inquired Russell. The 12. The 12? Yes. Don't you know that this is the 26th and the day the 12 were to leave of their friends on the foundation of the Lord's house to go to the islands of the sea. The revelation is now fulfilled, and I am going with them. Russell was speechless, and Turley bid him farewell. So he just couldn't resist.

[A]

So Isaac Russell is an apostate. Right. He's a former member of the church who was kind of snickering and sneezing at this revelation.

[B]

Yeah. In fact, Isaac Russell, Heber C. Kimball, and Orson Hyde go on a mission to England. And you know that story where one of the missionaries gets, like, influenced by devils, and Heber C. Kimball has to give him a blessing, and he gets thrown across the room, that's Isaac Russell. Isaac Russell was the missionary that was feeling awful from demonic influence. He comes home and he apostatizes and becomes one of the people threatening to kill the 12. And so Ted Turley feels like he's got to know.

[A]

He should know that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

[B]

And then I imagine him just, like, hopping on his horse and riding down the road, just laughing his head off as he goes.

[A]

Mic drop moment. So, I mean, the controversy is, did the 12 have to do that? I don't know. It was a commandment. Why was the Lord so specific? Was it to test their faith? Was it to galvanize them in preparation for the British mission? I don't know. You could speculate.

[B]

And you know what? The minutes of the meetings that we have indicate that, you know, it was no less a person than Father Smith. Joseph Smith Sr. Was the one taking the other side. He said the Lord would take the will for the deed. But Wilford Woodruff writes, the spirit of the Lord rested upon the 12. And they said, the Lord God has spoken, and we will fulfill that revelation and commandment. So if we're trying to resolve the controversy, I think it would have been reasonable for them to say, you know what? We don't want to get killed. We're not going to help a lot of people if we're dead. But at the same time, too, I admire the courage of the 12. And I should note the person this revelation is directed to, who's Thomas B. Marsh, had also apostatized by this point. So they not only ordained Wilford Woodruff, they ordained George A. Smith at the Far West Temple site. Because Thomas B. Marsh is gone by now, and Orson Hyde is gone, too, but he's going to come back.

[A]

Really kind of a fun section. It's short, but, like, wow, that's dramatic. And then to say nothing of the consequences of the British mission, like you said, like, this is going to be one of those missions that is so consequential. Kind of like the mission to the Lamanites where we had such a harvest in the Kirtland area. Now we have that happening again in the British Isles. And there's going to be tens of thousands of Latter Day Saints over the next couple decades that come into the church because of this mission.

[B]

And we made a couple videos that will be up on Scripture Central, where we actually visited some of the places where Heber C. Kimball went to in 1837, and then where the 12, especially Wilford Woodruff, go during their 1840 mission. I hope you'll check those out, because that'll give you some of the background here. But, Scott, if you look at a demographic map of America and you break it down by where everybody's from, there is this island of British people, and it's Utah, Idaho, Arizona, kind of what's famously known as the Mormon culture region. And it's because they convert so many people on this mission. And then for the next few decades, there's just this rich harvest of people coming from the British Isles that respond to the message of the Restoration and immigrate to the States. To the point to where it's been said that if you walk down the street in Salt Lake, say, in the 1850s, you're more likely to hear an English accent than an American accent. And then John Taylor, Erastus Snow, George Q. Cannon, William Clayton. Just so many important leaders in the church are brought here because of that, too. Willard Richards meets his wife. That's another story for another day. But, yeah, amazing things happen.

[A]

By the way, Willard Richards, whose appointed by this revelation to be an apostle, was actually in England at this time that this revelation was given. And so they actually write him a letter and send him a letter, and in England, he opens that letter and learns of his appointment to the 12, which is quite the way to find out you've been called to be a member of the 12 apostles.

[B]

Yeah. And then when they. When they get to England, they ordain him in England, making him the first apostle ordained outside the United States, which all of my British friends bring up constantly. Like, Willard Richards is their guy. He stayed behind because his girlfriend, Janetta Richards, that's her real last name, they eventually fall in love, get married. She kind of proposes by saying, richards is a really nice name and I don't ever want to change it. Anyway, great stories.

[A]

Just to underscore this, I want to share a stat about British conversions. Like, just a moment in time. 1851. If we just freeze that frame. In 1851, the church in Utah has 12,000 members. The church in Great Britain in 1851 had 33,000 members. It's like three times the size almost of the church in Utah. And then what's funny is, of the 12,000 church members in Utah, 10,000 of them were British immigrants. So that tells you, I think, a ton about this story. Right. It's going to be massively successful and it's going to influence the church forever going forward.

[B]

Huge consequences. So the next section also has pretty big consequences. So these Far west revelations are short but sweet. But have, have huge lasting impacts. And section 119 is basically the law of tithing, which still has huge, huge implications for members of the church.

[A]

Yeah. And there are some really important things we need to consider about this revelation. A couple misunderstandings about this and then some controversies that maybe you and I won't fully resolve. But some really fascinating questions that this section kicks up. So let's dive into it. Casey, tell us, where did this come from? Why at this time is Joseph seeking a revelation? And how does that culminate in this tithing revelation?

[B]

This is another one of those five revelations all received on Sunday, July 8, 1838, and they all deal with major things like we mentioned. Section 118 dealt with reorganizing church leadership. This is probably the second biggest concern after replacing leaders of the church which is regulating church finances. So a lot of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants involve questions of how to conduct church finances and how to build the kingdom while providing for the poor. In answer to those questions, Section 42, which we've already talked about, designated as the law of the Church, was received in 1831 and explained the basic principles of the Law of Consecration. Church members attempted to follow those principles as they settled in Missouri. But the failure of many of the early saints to fully live the law of Consecration is a factor in their expulsion from Jackson county in 1833. Then string of severe financial setbacks made it difficult to fully implement the law of Consecration and to provide for the financial needs of the church. So the expulsion of the saints from Jackson county, then the March of Zion's Camp, then the construction of the Kirtland Temple, followed by the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, stretched church finance to the limit. And then the Kirtland apostasy which is linked to these financial issues, forced most of the remaining faithful saints in Ohio to emigrate to Missouri. So In December of 1837, a church committee that consisted of Bishop Edward Partridge, Isaac Morley and John Corll were tasked to propose a plan whereby the Church of Latter Day Saints may voluntarily raise means by tithing themselves to create a fund ready at all times to assist the poor and also to compensate the servants of the Lord for their services in attending to the business of the church. So what they officially propose is that every head of household in the church volunte voluntarily donate a certain percentage of their net worth to assist in meeting the Church's financial needs. The committee initially proposed a tithing of 2% of one's net worth to meet the needs of the church in 1838. Then the committee believed that this new program would in some degree fulfill the law of consecration. So as the church reassembles in Far west, there's a renewed desire to find a way to live the law of consecration. Thomas B. Marsh, who's the president of the quorum of the 12, reported that the saints, in his words, seem to wish to have the whole law of God lived up to. And we think that the church will rejoice to come up to the law of consecration as soon as their leaders shall say the word or show them how to do it. End quote. So this desire to know more about how to live the law of consecration led to Joseph Smith seeking revelation on the topic. And I should mention one more thing. In the early church, the term tithe was not always associated with the amount of 10%. Now, tithe does mean 10th, but it could be used for varying amounts. Part of the purpose of section 119 was to outline how much of a tithe should be for the members of the church. So in the copy of the revelation found in Joseph Smith's journal, the revelation is recorded in response to the question, lord, show us unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing. Now, the other thing to keep in mind is the doctrine and Covenants 119 was received within the framework of the Law of Consecration. And this is one of the controversies. I'm jumping the gun here, but did it replace the Law of Consecration as it's sometimes talked about, or is it a subset of the Law of Consecration? It is interestingly included in the 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. So it gets canonized by Joseph Smith, not like the rest of these revelations which are placed later in by Orson Pratt. This one actually is canonized by Joseph Smith. And I was surprised because the other week, a colleague of mine asked if he could see the Community of Christ Doctrine and Covenants, which they were the same for both churches up till 1844. This is the only Far west revelation that's in the Community of Christ Doctrine and Covenants. Everything else was was added later on by Orson Pratt under the direction of Brigham Young. So this seems like a big enough deal that within his own lifetime, Joseph Smith decided it needed to be canon. It needed to be part of the Doctrine and Covenants.

[A]

So financial concerns that grew out of all the financial strain back in Kirtland and earlier in Missouri has created a need to figure out how to finance the needs of the church. I think that's so cool that Edward Partridge and his committee were tasked with coming up with, like, an idea. Like, what's an idea that you guys can propose to help us fund the needs of the church and their proposal. You just said it so fast, but I was just, like, pondering on it. You said 2% of their net worth annually. That's an interesting idea, right? Net worth is different than income, right? 2% of your net worth. I was reading through the minutes of that proposal earlier today, and they said your net worth is basically everything you've got, minus your debts and whatever that number is, that would be your net worth. And so 2% of that. And then they go on to say that on some years, that percentage could go up or down based on the needs of the church. This is kind of a creative, fun idea. Like, if the church anticipates X, Y and Z needs, they would then announce to the church in January, I suppose, of each year, that this year it's going to be 1%, or this year it's going to be 3% of your net worth. Fascinating. It would be kind of a floater, right? That was the proposal, but clearly that had not taken yet by the time of this revelation, because Joseph's saying, give us an answer to this question about how we can fund the financial needs of the church. So plans had been kind of proposed, but it doesn't seem like anything was sticking until this happens, which is really interesting. And one more thing I would add is that the very day that this revelation was received was the day that some of Joseph Smith's own personal debts, the debts of the presidency, were coming due. Legal fees for lawyers who'd represented them against some of the accusations back in Kirtland were due this day several thousand dollars. And so Joseph's got. He's got some serious financial concerns. Like you said, there's the law of consecration. How do we live this? And then there's debts that are immediately due. And then there's the Far West Temple, which the Lord just told them, don't go into debt for this. And so you can see all these concerns swirling around which bring about such a need for this revelation. So that's so good. Thank you, guys. All right, so the second C here, the content of 1:19 begins this way. Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in zion, comma, verse 2, for the building of my house that's Far west, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, I suppose that's the area around Far west at this time. And for the debts of the presidency of my church, again, those debts that are now due actually on this day, plus others, I'm sure. And then the Lord says this, verse 3, and this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. Interesting. So, okay, is there anything new here? Doesn't section 42 say that you should give all your surplus property into the hands of the bishop of my church? Casey, Is that what he says? Starting, I think, in verse 30.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of section 42. Like this doesn't seem to be unique yet. And when we teach a lot of tithing, we don't typically talk about this. Tell me what's going on here.

[B]

Tithing, the way that they're using it back then is a general time term. We haven't gotten to 10% here. I'm just going to come out and say what you're playing around, which is it just really sounds like in these verses that tithing didn't replace the Law of Consecration. I'm going to say that's my take on it, that the Law of Consecration is a holistic law. It involves more than just money and temporal things. It encompasses all of an individual's times, talents, and gifts to build up the kingdom of God. I don't think the consecration asks that you necessarily have to give up everything thing. It's just that you accept the covenants, like the covenant you make in the temple to live the law of Consecration to signify your willingness to give up those things if it was necessary. So I'm going to say these verses seem to indicate that tithing is a subset of the Law of Consecration.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

This is.

[A]

It's like a continuation of section 42 with like a little bit of a twist.

[B]

Yeah. Part of the confusion might come from the fact that there is documentary evidence that Joseph Smith did temporarily suspend the Law of consecration in March 1840. But we also have records from the Nauvoo period. Some excellent research has been done that showed that church members were attempting to implement the Law of Consecration there. And then when we get to Utah, Brigham Young oversees several attempts to integrate the Law of Consecration. I'm talking like the full deal, section 42, law of consecration, with varying degrees of success. So in some places, like Brigham City and Orderville, it worked for a long time. In other places, like Richfield, it crashed and burned almost immediately. I don't think this means that the Law of Consecration was replaced by the Law of Tithing I think that tithing was intended to be connected to the law of consecration, A subset of the law of consecration. A part of it, but not a complete replacement. Based on my reading these verses, I 100% agree.

[A]

In fact, verse three called it the beginning of the tithing of my people. It's what Edward Partridge will call the first tithing. So section 119 is actually going to talk about two tithings. So tithing number one is to do what section 42 says and to give your surplus property to the hands of the bishop. Okay, that's tithing one. Now, verse four. Now watch this. And after that, okay, after that first tithing, the Lord says, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one tenth of all their interest annually. And this shall be a standing law unto them forever. For my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. So there you go. That's tithing number two. Pay 1/10 of all your interest annually. Now, there's a little bit of ambiguity about one tenth of all your interest annually. What does that mean? There's actually a letter that Edward Partridge, the bishop who was there when this revelation was received, wrote to the bishop in Kirtland, Noel K. Whitney, who still had not yet come to Missouri. And he explained the program. Here's what he said. He said, the saints are required to give their surplus property into the hands of the Bishop of Zion. And after this first time tithing. See, that's verse one through three, after this first tithing, they are to pay annually one tenth of all their interest. And then he explains what that means. He said, that is if a man is worth a thousand dollars. Okay, Thousand dollar net worth. The interest on that would be $60. And 1/10 of the interest will be, of course, $6. Thus, you see the plan. So hold on. There's a couple things we need to unpack in that. So he says, said if you invested your net worth of $1,000, that would be $60 of interest. The assumption here is a 6% interest rate. Okay? This is a common interest rate at the time. And so he's telling Bishop Whitney, it's a hypothetical investment. If you hypothetically invested your net worth at 6%, it would be $60. Okay, what's 10% of $60? 10% of your interest annually. He says that would be $6. Thus, you see the plan. Close quote. That Casey, is not what I found to be the typical understanding of this verse. But this is original understanding of Edward Partridge, which is so interesting. 10% of what you would earn in interest. If you Invested your net worth for a year at 6%. That's what he's saying this verse means. That's interesting. We're have to come back to that in the controversies. But I just want you to. To like, kind of think through, like. Okay, so after you've done tithing number one, okay. Of giving all your surplus to the bishop. Now, tithing number two is 1/10 of all of your interest annually. Your interest, if you invested your net worth at 6% annually, 10% of that. All right, so let's pause that. We're going to come back to that in the controversies.

[B]

Okay. Verse 5. Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy. Worthy to abide among you. And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy. Behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you, and this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. It seems clear that from early sources, tithe had kind of a fluid meaning to it. So if we're looking at 10%, here's a couple things. First, one tenth of their interest annually is the statement made here. In Hebrew and Greek, the words in the Old and New Testament that were translated as tithe or tithing all mean a tenth or to give a tenth. In addition, the English word tithe is taken from the Old English Teogotha, or 10th. And if we're just going to the 1828 dictionary, the dictionary that Joseph Smith and his associates would have been using, the first definition of tithe is the tenth part of anything. So the language there might be more complicated than you expected it to be, because the law of tithing is just generally understood in the Church to be one tenth of your income annually right now. And there's a long and sort of complicated history about how it becomes 10% that we're going to get into. But let's save this for the controversies, right? So that's the basic content, really simple, just seven verses sets up the basic financial law of the Church that we find today. But those seven verses, there's a lot to kind of understand about how this developed into the modern practice that it is today.

[A]

Yeah, well said. Okay. Controversies. We hit on this earlier that you and I are of the opinion that Section 119, the law of tithing, does not replace the law of consecration. We believe that deep in our bones. The reason this is controversial is because in the. In the section heading of this revelation, it basically suggests that. Right. It states that. Let me. Let me read it. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members, chiefly the leading elders, entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of the failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole church. So that's the line that's like, oh, okay, so this replaced the law of consecration. But we disagree with that, especially because of the great research by our friend Steve Harper. I think he's done the lion's share of research on this and pushed back, I think the hardest in a really faithful, scholarly way. So, Casey, why do we have an issue with this? What's the scholarship on that?

[B]

I want to be clear here. We don't have an issue with the Revelation. We have an issue with the introduction to the Revelation, which it's correlated by the Church. But I feel like it's fair game. And I got to be honest, I was a little surprised that this wasn't changed in the 2013 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. But we're not going to take the heat for disagreeing with the introduction. We're going to let our friend Steve Harper take the heat. Steve is a great scholar of the Doctrine and covenants, totally faithful, 100% dedicated to the Gospel, and yet he brought up issue with this in some of the commentary that you can find on Doctrine and Covenants Central. So if you go to Doctrine and Covenants Central, we've got these introductions to each section, and Steve introduces some questions here that might question not the section itself, but the introduction to the section. Let's be very clear. So go ahead and walk us through what Steve says.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So he, after quoting verses one through three and then four and showing that there's two tithings, Steve says, so why do the saints tell each other the story that the law of consecration is a higher law and tithing is a lower law law? He goes on, the Doctrine and Covenants doesn't say that. To which we agree, like, it is definitely not saying that. Right? It is not saying that.

[B]

Yeah. It's not in the text of the Revelation. No.

[A]

Verse one is just affirming the law of consecration. Okay, so anyway, let's keep going. There's not enough space here, he says, to explain this misunderstanding completely. But the heading plays a role in it. There are erroneous sentences in the heading that conflict with the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. And then he quotes what we just quoted, right? Where the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing. And Steve takes issue with that. He says These sentences conflate two separate, distinct covenants into one, then mistakenly assert that Section 119 is instead of that covenant. He said the first covenant is the one all saints are to make and keep, to live the law of consecration. In section 42, which is the law, saints were expected, not coerced, but expected to live this law. All could. Some would and some would not. And then the Lord adds, right? Then the Lord adds, in verse four, a second tithing on top of that first consecration. So. So that's Steve's point. Steve is saying that, and I agree. I think we're both. We're all in agreement here that the Lord is adding to the law of consecration here, if you want to say it that way, but certainly not replacing it. Right? Let's keep the surplus consecration, and then let's add this one tenth of all your interest annually. That's it. That's all that's happening, happening here, not a replacement.

[B]

When you think about it, the law of consecration can't be repealed. We're asked to live it in the temple. It's one of the basic covenants that a person makes when they go to the temple. So, yeah, I mean, Steve was bold enough to say that, and we appreciate him for doing so, and we will take his word at it. But it just seems like from the text of the revelation, clearly it wasn't a higher law versus a lower law. Consecration didn't go away. There's plenty of historical records that indicate they kept trying to live the law of consecration, that we're still trying to live it today. But that this financial law, this subset of consecration, this addition, I guess that was a good word you used, was intended to help us down that road. But it's not a lesser law. It's not a replacement for a higher law or anything like that.

[A]

Yeah. And I could hear a listener saying, okay, great, I like what you're saying there about the original context of this time, but we certainly aren't asked to do verses one through three, Right. Latter Day Saints today don't do that first surplus consecration to the bishop. We don't we don't do that when you're baptized or, you know, we join the church, like, you don't have to give all of your surplus to the bishop. You know, it almost seems like that part has gone away. And verse four is the only thing that is now standing. This idea of one tenth of all your interest annually is the standing law. And I think that's actually a good, a good point, a good question actually, to say like, okay, so when does. When did. When did verses one through three go away? The Lord is clear here. It's about Zion. This is in the land of Zion to do it in Zion. There are some records that when saints were coming to Utah that Brigham Young would have them do a surplus early on. But it's true that, that over time, verses one through three are no longer required. And verse four is the only thing that we are now expected to do. Like in a temple record recommend interview. When you're asked if you live the law of tithing, the question we all understand is about verse four. It's not about verses one through three. And I wonder if the language in verse four is helpful. When he says, this shall be a standing law unto them forever, meaning only verse four, I wonder if he means one through three. Let's do that for now. But verse four is going to be the standing law forever after. Like this. Like this is going to be the one that stands forever. That's one reading of verse four. Do you have another reading on that? Or how would you explain the verses 1 through 3? We don't live that anymore, but we still do. Verse 4.

[B]

I'm going to counter argue and say that we still live a form of verses 1 through 3, but that in practice it changed. So the implementation of the law of tithing did appear to lead to one major adjustment to the law of consecration. And that is prior to 1838, individuals worked out stewardships and their surpluses with the assistance of bishop who acted as a judge in Israel. And this is in accordance with the instructions in section 42, verse 32. But listen to this statement Brigham Young makes. This is an 1855 sermon that he gives. And he says, when the revelation which I have read, he just read section 119 was given in 1838. I was present and recollect the feelings of the brethren. A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the churches and find out what surplus property the people had had with which to forward the building of the temple. We were commencing at Far west. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked Brother Joseph, who shall be the judge of what is surplus property? Said he, Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything that they have. Some were disposed to do right with their surplus property. And once in a while you would find a man who had a cow which he considered surplus, but generally she was of the class that would kick a person's hat off or eyes out, or the wolves had eaten off her teats.

[A]

They're giving junk cows to the church.

[B]

Terrible cows. Okay. Brigham then adds, I mention these things to illustrate the feeling of many people, for they do not understand the spirit they are of, when a man wishes to give anything, let him give the best he got. So Brigham makes it sound like there was an adjustment here where you get to judge what your surplus is to give, and you're still expected to give surplus to the church. I would say most faithful church members give way more than just the tithing that they give. They give fast offerings. They give of their time, they give of their energy. Remember, I'm looking at consecration as a holistic law that is more than just finance. But that the adjustment here was that instead of sitting down with your bishop and working out exact figures, figures Joseph Smith had just said they can judge for themselves. And Brigham Young is saying, I'm hoping you're giving your best to the church and not your cow that kicks people in the head or anything like that.

[A]

So we could agree that we don't currently give all of our surplus property to the bishop. But what you're saying is maybe the adaptation that's happened is when we are given the opportunity to make a generous fast offering, or we can donate in other ways. All those lines on the tithing slip, I'm thinking. Thinking of.

[B]

Yeah. And again, looking at it holistically, you know, my wife gives at least one night out of seven to take care of the young women. And there have been times when we've just paid for things out of pocket or sacrificed a huge amount of time to go to girls camp or youth conference or go on a young men's adventure. That should be considered consecration, too. But there is a lot more freedom in the way that it's implemented. Maybe like you suggested, this just had to do with the land of something, Zion, and the conditions that exist there specifically in Missouri. And maybe we'll come back to this, but I still would make an argument to say consecration is more than people give it credit for. They might not be realizing how much they're consecrating, or if they do, maybe they should be consecrating a little bit more.

[A]

I like keeping part of this centered in the land of Zion. And let's call that timely. Like, timely application of this section that was meant to be. Be kind of in that day and time only. And then there's this timeless application of this section, which is verse four, which he calls the standing law forever. And that's meant to be throughout the Church, always going forward. Right. So I feel most comfortable with that. To say verses one through three, tithing number one, this was a timely command to the people of that day, not intended to be part of the standing law forever. And then in verse four, we now get kind of the ongoing law that will always be in place. Something like that. It's not the only reading of the text, but that's my reading.

[B]

Okay, so I'm going to throw another controversy at you. How did we go from 10% of our annual interest of our net worth to 10% of our increase or income? Because that seems to be the universal standard today. That it's 10% of your increase or 10% of your income.

[A]

Yeah, man. Totally. Totally. That is a such a good question. I read Bishop Partridge's explanation of this to Bishop Noel K. Whitney, right. Where he's very, very clear, like, 10% of what the saints would earn in interest if they invested the net worth for a year. In his case, it was at 6%. That's not typically how tithing is explained today. Right. I think that the latest kind of official statement by church leaders, the last one I'm aware of in terms of, like, the First Presidency announcing something thing, was in March of 1970. This is President Joseph Fielding Smith's presidency. We've had other apostles comment, and then this reference, the language of this First Presidency letter, makes it into church handbooks of instruction. So here's what they say about this. They say, for your guidance in this matter about how much tithing we should pay, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the church should pay one tenth of all their interest annually. Clearest statement we know of is in section 119. Right. And then they say this, though, which is understood to mean income. Okay. That was not Edward Partridge's understanding, actually. But that became the understanding, didn't it? 10% of all of your income Became the understanding about you asked, how did we do this? I've tried to trace this, Casey. And we, we even had some guests on our show from the Joseph Smith papers when we did a series on church finances. And we, we tried to grill them on this to see if they knew exactly how this transition happened in understanding. But it seems like it started with the Nauvoo Temple. So Joseph Smith asked for the saints in Nauvoo to give 10% of their income, full stop income to help build the Nauvoo Temple. All right, that was a tithe. Will you pay a tithe to help us build the Nauvoo Temple? So that seems to be, again, a timely request. A funds 10% of our income to build the Nauvoo Temple. Once the Nauvoo Temple was built, it's built kind of in haste. And then we got to leave, you know, 1846. We're not there very long. We go out to Utah, Brigham young and the 12 leading the church. And when we get out to Utah, what it seems like and the historical record, nobody's done like the full in depth research on this that we would like. But it seems like out in Utah, Brigham Young continued to basically, basically keep the 10% of your income from the Nauvoo Temple building and just kind of, just kind of keep that going along as like the new understanding of what tithing would be. I'm oversimplifying this and please jump in and add any nuances that you think are helpful. But that's, that's kind of a general thing that it seems like the Nauvoo Temple was a, was a shifter in the understanding of tithing. Whether that was intentional or not, whether that was intended to, to ultimately shift like our fundamental paying of tithing forever going forward, or whether that was intended to simply be for the Nauvoo Temple itself, like a really timely thing, not timeless. That's debatable. And you know, we can dig into that with scholarship, et cetera, and I think that work needs to be done. But that seems to be the moment where the understanding starts to shift.

[B]

There's a nice little article on gospel library under church history topics where there's so much good stuff here. And this is again, officially correlated from the church. This is their explanation. It just reads, over time, the saints tithing practices have changed as the economy and circumstances of the saints have shifted. Initially, church leaders applied a complex formula to calculate how much tithing the saints owed. They're probably making reference to Bishop Partridge's letter to Bishop Whitney. By the 1840s, however, which, like you were saying, was around the time of the Nauvoo Temple, this was simplified to a requirement to pay one tenth of their income increase or income. Then they add. The methods of paying tithing likewise shifted over time. In the 19th century, saints often made in kind donations, such as animals or produce, starting in Nauvoo. Many saints in Nauvoo donated one day in 10 to work on the temple or other church projects. Church offices in Nauvoo and Salt Lake City had a tithing office and a yard that served as places to store donated goods such as grain, vegetables, merchandise, cut stone, lumber, shingles, and livestock stock in outlying settlements. Local bishop storehouses were similarly used to pool the community's resources in calculating their annual tenth. As outlined in the 1838 Revelation, church members sometimes counted things like land appreciation as increase, since many people were not earning wages. But in the 20th century, cash earnings and donations became more common. So it just seems like, yeah, Nauvoo is somehow the turning point where tithing comes to be understood as 1/10. And there's still creative things happening, like one cow out of 10 or working on the Nauvoo temple one day out of 10. But it's fairly consistent and has been for a long time, that tithing is 1/10 of your income.

[A]

Yeah. And I love back in that 1970 letter from the first presidency, after they say that section 119 is the official answer, and then they say, which we understand to mean income, that new understanding to it, then they say this. No one is justified in making any other statement than this right than section 119. We feel, and this is important, I think we feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly. That's back to that Brigham Young story that you read earlier. It's like you decide, like in your heart with the Lord, like people grapple with tithing questions, right? Should we do it on our GROSS or our NED or should we go back to the 1838 understanding and do it on our net worth? A hypothetical investment. Like, listen, you're going to be asked a very simple question once a year by your bishop, right? Are you a full tithe payer? And the First Presidency says, we feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, make payment accordingly. This really is between you and the Lord. And so getting Any more particular than that, that is always going to lead into trouble. I love that statement. What do you think about that?

[B]

I just think it's been clear and it's been clear for a long time what it is. We can go back and forth on how the early saints understood it, but the modern leaders of the church have been absolutely crystal clear what it is and have been for a really long time. If we believe that they're the heirs and successors to the early saints, we don't really have a lot to argue about here. It's a simple law and. And it's a great equalizer, I'll say. And it's something that I'm really grateful for.

[A]

Let's talk our fourth C now. Casey. Consequences. What comes out of section 119?

[B]

Section 119 is the beginning of the law of tithing. And so many things in the church relate to this. So many blessings in the church come because of this. The consequences. Now we now pay tithing. And also the church is well funded. That's pretty much it. We used to call it tithing settlement. Now I believe the nomenclature shifted in the last couple years to tithing declaration, which is a lot of work and could probably be handled via an email or a text message. I kept wondering, could I just text and say, hey, are you a full tithe payer? Yep. But I also noticed when I served in a bishopric and was carrying this out, it was a great opportunity for me to connect with some of the families in the Word that were doing well. Because when you serve in leadership, it seems like you spent a disproportionate amount of time with families that are struggling and that. And that have issues and that need your help. And that's exactly the way it should be. I was always grateful for tithing Declaration because it gave me a chance to talk to those families that were just faithful and doing what they were supposed to be doing. And I spent most of it not talking about tithing. I spent most of it saying, thank you for all the things you're doing for the people in our ward. We're so grateful for you. And then asking those questions, are you a full tithe faith payer was just immensely satisfying and a great opportunity to just teach these principles of sacrifice. It's very simple. But what a blessing it is to us and to the church and to millions of people around the world.

[A]

Amen. Okay, let's wrap all this up with section 120. Actually just kind of an addendum almost to section 119. Also about tithing. Tell us a little about this. It's just one little verse. But what's the. The context we need to know before we read that verse?

[B]

Section 120 is one of those five revelations given on July 8, 1838. And it's just another step in implementing the law of consecration and managing church finances. So the background is this. At first, the responsibility to oversee church finances was given to the bishops of the Church. You can see that in section 42, 31, 34. At the time that revelation is received, there's only one bishop. So it's fairly straightforward. However, from 1832 to 1834, the United Firm oversaw the management of church assets. We've talked at length about that. After 1834, the High Councils that were established in Ohio and Missouri became part of managing church finances. But this arrangement actually leads to some contention among the Missouri high council. When W.W. phelps and John Whitmer, members of the Missouri Stake Presidency, acted without consent of the other High Council members. So in doctrine and Covenants 112, the Lord organized a new council. This council is going to consist of the First Presidency, the presiding Bishopric in Zion, the Zion High Council, and they're going to manage the financial affairs of the church. And the council was to act under the direction of the Lord. So this new council was formed and first met several weeks later on July 26, 1838. The minutes of the meeting from here record this day the First Presidency, High Council and Bishop Court meant to take into consideration the disposing of the public properties in the hands of the Bishop in Zion. For the people of Zion have commenced liberally to consecrate agreeably to the revelations and commandments of the Great I am of their surplus properties, etc.

[A]

Okay, content. Here's the whole section. Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come that it shall be disposed of by a council. It referring to tithing and donations and surplus, etc. Right. The council is composed of the first presidency of my church and of the Bishop and his council, and by my High Council, meaning the. The High Council in Missouri at that time, and by mine own voice unto them saith the Lord. Even so. Amen. That's the whole revelation. So pretty straightforward. There's a council, couple presidencies, who are going to be in charge of overseas, seeing how the donations that come into the Church are used to forward the purposes of the church. That's straightforward. That's it. So, any controversies with Section120, Casey?

[B]

It does seem like there's Checks and balances because this is a fairly robust council. And one other controversy I can think of is the. The High Council at this time seems to be referring to the High Council of the Stake in Missouri. But it's generally understood that the High Council today that oversees the disposition of tithes is the 12 apostles. That as time has gone on and we've had multiple stakes, we've decided that a group of general church officers, rather than local church officers should discuss the disposition of the tithes. So not a really big controversy. That's sort of a natural and normal shift if we're going to have centralized control of church finances. But that is one thing that we should recognize here is that the meaning of the High Council has changed from the local to the quorum of the 12.

[A]

Yes. In our day, the members of the Disposition of the Council of Tithes is the First Presidency, the presiding Bishopric of the Church, and the quorum of the 12. I mean, that's. Yeah, that's a. That's a small change since then. I think that's it. Yeah. Is that controversial or is that just like, informational? I don't know.

[B]

I think it's just informational. Yeah. And it makes sense. So, yeah, no major controversy.

[A]

Okay, let's talk consequences again, small little section one verse, but the consequences are big. And I Remember back in 2013, Elder Bednar gave an awesome conference talk called the Windows of Heaven, where he actually gives us an insider's view as to what the disposition of the Council of Tithes is like today. In fact, he said, let me. Let me quote a little bit of this. He said, quote, before my call to serve as a member of the the 12, I had read many times about this council. And he refers to section 20. And so he says, when I was preparing in December of 2004 to attend my first meeting of this council, I eagerly anticipated a most remarkable learning opportunity. I still remember the things I experienced and felt in that council. I gained a greater appreciation and reverence for the Lord's laws of finance, for individuals, for families, and for his church. The basic financial program of the church for both income and display reimbursement is defined in sections 119 and 120 of the doctrine and Covenants. These sacred funds are used in a rapidly growing church to spiritually bless individuals and families by constructing and maintaining temples, houses of worship, supporting missionary work, translating and publishing scriptures, fostering family history research, funding schools and religious education, and accomplishing many other church purposes as directed by the Lord's organization. Ordained servants. I think about all the things this council has to think about. Right. He just listed a few buckets. How much money should go into these each year based on the income of the church? And then he says, I marvel at the clarity and brevity of these two revelations in comparison to the complicated financial guidelines and administrative procedures used in so many organizations and governments around the world. How can the temporal affairs of an organization as large as the Restored Church of Jesus Christ possibly operate throughout the entire world using such succinct instructions? To me, the answer is quite straightforward. This is the Lord's work, and he's able to do his own work. And then one more thing, he says, in that first council meeting, I was impressed by the simplicity of the principles that guided our deliberations and decisions. In the financial operations of the church, two basic and fixed principles are observed. First, the church lives within its means and does not spend more than it receives. I like that. So they're together as a council, and one of the things they will not do is spend more money than the church has. I like it. Number two, he says, a portion of the annual income is set aside as a reserve for contingencies and unanticipated needs. Okay, so they'll never spend 100% of the income. Right. He says for decades the church has taught its members to do the same, and the church is simply following these same principles. And then, he says, as the meeting progressed, I found myself wishing that all members of the church could observe the simplicity, the clarity, the orderliness, the charity and the power of the Lord's own way for conducting the temporal affairs of his church. I have now participated in the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes for many years. My gratitude and reverence for the Lord's pattern has grown even each year, and the lessons learned have become even more profound. I recommend the whole talk to you, but those are some highlights of Elder Bednar just being in awe and reverence, and I love that. He says, I wish every member of the church could just see how Beautifully this section120 is played out every year by this council. He makes it sound pretty awesome, and he's right.

[B]

It's simple and it's straightforward and it works. And so it's gotten us this far and helped us bless this many lives. And that really is a big. When I was working on the other side of the desk and I used to have to ask people to live the law of tithing, it was hard, especially at first, because sometimes these are people that couldn't meet their basic needs. And to say, we need you to give 10% of your income was difficult. But as time progressed, I realized that was the most helpful thing I could do. First, I sort of think that tithing is the Lord's way of making us budget. Like, if you have to set aside 10% of your income, you're already creating a budget, and a lot of the people that I worked with weren't doing that. And second, I just can't account for the things that happened once they demonstrated that faith, that it seemed like if they would just make the leap of faith, there'd be a job interview or an opening or an opportunity or something that would cause their financial burdens, which can be really, really stressful for people to ease. And so, boy, in my ecclesiastical service, I just gained a really strong testimony of this principle and that it's a way the Lord lets us tangibly demonstrate our faith. I just really walked away with a much stronger testimony of it than I had when I started.

[A]

Thank you. That concludes part two of this week's Come Follow Me. We've covered a lot, Casey, sections 115 through through 1 20. That was a big one, but wow, lots of good stuff in there.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so next week we'll move on to Liberty Jail, some of the most powerful sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, and we'll see you then.

[A]

Okay, we'll see you then. Thanks, Casey.

[B]

Sa.