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Church History Matters
174 - D&C 133 CFM - Our Warning Before the Second Coming - E47 November 17-23
01:10:17
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- [00:00]
A
This is the season when all of God's promises of old will finally be realized at last.
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B
It causes people to think and wonder about how good things are going to be and other people to cower in fear about how scary the second Coming can be.
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A
This has always been the story from the beginning of the restoration, right? There are ancient covenants, promises that need to be fulfilled.
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B
The Savior really is an active force in the lives of those who allow him to be, and he's helping us through our challenges right now.
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A
The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location. It's a matter of individual commitment.
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B
Lineage isn't the important thing here. It's righteousness. Hello, Scott.
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A
Hello, Casey.
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B
We're back and we're getting close to the end of the Doctrine and Covenants. It's. It's bittersweet for me. It's been really fun to do this, but we are getting to like some of the really interesting stuff too. And we've gone through some really interesting stuff. It doesn't get more interesting than section 132.
- [00:55]
A
I'm kind of feeling a sense of relief this week after having gone through section 132 last week. Seems like it's all downhill from there in terms of controvers and difficult to tackle. But we got some really interesting stuff for us this week. What an experience last week, huh?
- [01:10]
B
No controversies here except for everything linked to the second coming and the role of government, which could be really controversial to some people, but this is kind of a nice palate cleanser, right? We've been into some intense personal relationships, some heavy historical sections, and these two are kind of a nice change of pace, sending us off in a different direction. Also reminding us about the big picture stuff, why we're doing this. The mission of the Church to prepare the earth for the second coming of Jesus Christ.
- [01:39]
A
A little whiplash when it comes to timeline, right? Like we were just in 1843 of July last week. Suddenly in a flash, we're now back in November 1831 with section 133 and then we're in 1835 with section 134. What's going on? We want to talk all about that this week. Why are these two sections put way at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants like this? And what do they say? So yeah, we want to dig into all that, so help us with that first one, Casey. So 1831, November. What's going on with section 133? Why do we have this revelation here in the Doctrine and Covenants?
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B
Yeah. This could be kind of confusing because most of the Doctrine and Covenants is chronological. It just goes in the order that it was received. We found out a couple of those dates were wrong through the Joseph Smith Papers Project. But this is intentionally out of order. Section 133 is often referred to as the appendix of the Doctrine and Covenants. This is like an appendix to the book. Like, I usually in my classes say, hey, how many of you have watched the Lord of the Rings movies? And everybody raises their hand. How many of you have read the books? And some people raise their hand, and then I'm like, how many of you have read the appendices to the Lord of the Rings? And it's usually me and one kid in the class that have read the appendices. Fill in the blanks. Tell us the whole story. So that's what section 133 is. It's actually received around the same time section one is. And we've already noted way, way, long ago when we started this process, that section one is also out of. It should be section 67. This should be section 68. But they decided to place section one of the first of the doctrine and Covenants and this one at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants. But there were revelations that kept coming, and by that point, the Doctrine and Covenants has kind of taken on a life of its own. They didn't want to disturb the order. They kept section 133 where it is and continued to add to the other sections that came.
- [03:34]
A
And I will say that section 133 does have some spoilers. It does talk about who wins in the end, just so you know.
- [03:40]
B
Yeah. So if you read this first, it could spoil the whole book. And you'll be like, what? Let me further this idea of an appendix. This is John A. Widtsoe. He said the appendix supplements the introduction, section one. The two sections together encompass the contents of the book in a condensed form. An appendix is something which the writer thinks should be added to amplify that which is in the book, to emphasize it, to make it stronger, or to explain the contents a little bit more completely. And apparently this was done by request, too. The thing that the members of the church in 1831 wanted to know about were the signs of the times and the second coming. So that's what Section 133 is. It's a comprehensive. Well, it's not comprehensive, but it's pretty good. It's an extensive list of the signs of the second coming. It's originally published in the Evening and Morning Star. They even have a little introduction in the Evening and Morning Star that introduces it this way. Indeed, it is a source of joy to us to know that all the prophecies and promises which are contained in them which have not been fulfilled will come to pass. The saints may lift up their heads and rejoice, for their redemption will soon be perfected. Soon the curtain of heaven will be unfolded as the scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up. And they will see their Lord face to face in view of these coming scenes. They may lift up their heads and rejoice and praise his holy name that they are permitted to live in the days when he returns to his people with everlasting covenants to prepare them for his presence. They saw this as really exciting as a fulfillment of the times that they were living in. Again, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And then when Joseph Smith includes this in the 1838 history that he writes, which eventually becomes the six volume history of the Church, he gives this more specific context. He says, at this time there were many things which the elders desired to know relative to the preaching of the Gospel to the inhabitants of the earth and concerning the gatherings and in order to walk by the true light and be instructed from on High. On 3rd November 1831, I inquired of the Lord and received the following revelation, which from its importance and for distinction has since been added to the Book of Doctrine and Covenants as the appendix.
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A
So this is about the gathering and the preaching of the Gospel as well?
- [05:53]
B
Yeah, and it was intended to be in the Book of Commandments. The earliest version of the Doctrine and Covenants was supposed to start with section one and end with section 133. But we talked about this already. The Book of Commandments was destroyed before they could print it. So the first time this shows up is in the Doctrine and covenants in 1835. It's in 1876 when Brigham Young and Orson Pratt reorder the Doctrine and Covenants that it's given its section number 133. And then it's just stayed there with every subsequent edition of the Doctrine and Covenants.
- [06:25]
A
Instead of being like a floating section that when there's a new revelation added, this gets pushed back and pushed back as the appendix, they just decided to lock it in and then subsequent revelation just been added. Kind of throws off the groove of section 133. But it's fine.
- [06:38]
B
The Doctrine and Covenants has kind of taken on a life of its own. For instance, the 2013 edition made a ton of changes, especially to the section introductions. But a friend of mine that worked on it said basically that the leaders of the church asked, can we keep the same page numbers? Like, they didn't want the 2013 printed edition of the Doctrine and Covenants to have different page numbers than the 1981 edition. And I guess if you start messing with section numbers, numbers and everything, that it throws off a whole bunch of stuff.
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A
All the curriculum materials, all the reference books.
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B
We would have to completely redo Doctrine and Covenants Central. So they try to introduce little changes as we go. And I'm grateful for that.
- [07:20]
A
You'd have to redo all the footnotes in all of the scriptures that reference back to the Doctrine and Covenants. That'd be a big project, too.
- [07:26]
B
Probably don't mess with things unless you have a really good reason to. And there's wisdom in that. So. But consider the fact that to the early saints, this was the grand finale. This was the end of the Doctrine Covenants. Although we're going to get to an even better grand finale further on down the road.
- [07:42]
A
Okay, very good. Let's head to our second C. The content of this Revelation. So. So what does it actually say? We threw out a word earlier on in the year when we were talking about the eschatological revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants. I think we used that with Section 29. This revelation, Section 133, is another one of the great eschatological revelations, the ones that are talking about and explaining the end times and how it's all going to wind up. And so here's how it starts. Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you, the Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple. Little reference to Malachi 3, verse 1 there. We know Jesus was a frequent visitor to the temple in Jerusalem during his mortal ministry, and some thought maybe that was the fulfillment of Malachi 3. But the fact that it's here is like, no, that prophecy in Malachi is actually referring to a more grand and glorious appearance, not just mortal Jesus walking amidst the temple and the Lord continues. The Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment, yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you. For he shall make bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of their God. Those are some stiff verses here. I Mean you have the imagery of the Lord coming down upon the godless parts of the world with a curse to judgment, making bare his holy arm. That's a scriptural phrase for kind of rolling up his sleeves and flexing. Oftentimes that comes before things like the ten plagues. In the book of Exodus, it says, the Lord's going to make bare his arm in the eyes of all of Egypt. And what comes, what follows, that is some destruction of the wicked. So that same imagery is being used here. In fact, maybe some of this language is deliberately reminiscent of that first redemption story in Scripture, that redemption of the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage back in Moses's day. In fact, the Lord's going to use a couple pieces of imagery from the Old Testament in this. So kind of we got to kind of stay sharp and follow the imagery here. This first one is the Egyptian bondage. Then we're going to go to the Babylonian bondage in a couple of verses here. So let's continue to follow that. Verse 4, Wherefore. Prepare ye, prepare ye, O my people, sanctify yourselves. Gather ye together, O ye people of my church, upon the land of Zion. All you that have not been commanded to tarry, go ye out from Babylon. Oh, there we go. Now we're in Babylon, which, by the way, if we just skip ahead in verse 14, Babylon is defined there, right? It's defined as wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon. So we're kind of framing this in these kind of epic Old Testament themes of like a group of people, people in bondage, either in Egypt or. Now, remember, the Babylonians will come in the Book of Mormon kind of starts, during this time period, Babylonians come, decimate Jerusalem and take captive most of Israel into the land of Babylon. And then comes about 50 or so years later, once the Babylonians are conquered by the Persians, they're allowed to then return back and rebuild the temple, that kind of stuff. So kind of think about that history as he's referring to Babylon here. Know the original story and then know the metaphor of wickedness being spiritual. Babylon. And this section makes more sense, especially these next several verses. So go ye out from Babylon, get out of bondage. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord. He says in verse five, verse six, call your solemn assemblies and speak often one to another. And let every man call upon the name of the Lord. This is a quick clarion call to gather from where? From wickedness to where? To Zion. What do they mean in 1831 when this revelation is given about Zion? Undoubtedly, we're talking about Jackson County, Missouri. Right. This would be like you said, this would be like Section 68ish of the Doctrine and Covenants. Remember, Section 57 has already identified where Zion is. And so this is in the psyche in 1831. We know where Zion is. It is Missouri. All you that haven't been commanded to tarry, Right?
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B
Yeah. Just a couple months after they've gone to Missouri and received. Section 57 is when this is received.
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A
So get out of. Out of wherever you're living. We'll call it spiritual Babylon and gather to Zion. Except if you've been commanded to tarry back in Kirtland, then stay there or whatever. Right. One more. In verse seven, call to flee. Verily I say unto you. Again, he repeats this call. The time has come when the voice of the Lord is unto you. Go ye out of Babylon. Gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. And send forth the elders of my church to the nations which are far off, unto the islands of the sea. Send forth to foreign lands, Call upon nations, first upon the Gentiles, then upon the Jews. And lo. This is what you should say. You should say verse nine, go ye forth into the land of Zion. If you just highlight every time it says Go ye forth, you get the cadence of these verses. Go out of Babylon, go into Zion, that the borders of my people may be enlarged, that her stakes may be strengthened. We're invoking some Isaiah imagery here, that Zion, this big tent may go forth and start spreading from the central place of Missouri out to all the regions roundabout. Yea, let the cry go forth among all people. Awake and arise and go forth to meet the bridegroom. Behold, and lo, the bridegroom cometh. Now we're into some New Testament imagery of the church preparing as the bride for the groom to come. Jesus, go ye out to meet him. Prepare yourselves for the great day of the Lord. Such good imagery, Casey. It's almost like greatest hits of Old Testament themes and New Testament all crashing together here in these verses.
- [13:41]
B
Yeah, and you can see how this is a good end to the Doctrine and Covenants in their mind, because it's sort of like a call to action. And this is why we're fighting, like we're doing these day to day things so that we can open the door in the way for Zion to be built. And then verses 17 through 35 move us on to another thing which was dear to the saints, which is this idea that the whole house of Israel would eventually be gathered back together and united as part of the glorious day. So, picking it up in verse 17, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his path straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh, when the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion and with him 144,000 having his father's name written on their foreheads. Now, again, anytime you hear 144,000, right? If you're attuned to conversations about the Book of Revelation, this pops up. There's been extensive discussion and theorizing about what this means. We'll just remind you that Revelation given a couple months later after section 133, which is section 77, answers who the 144,000 are. So this isn't mysterious to us. Section 77 says that the 144,000 are high priests ordained unto the holy order of God to administer the everlasting Gospel. For they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred tongue and people by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth to bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. So no mysterious identity. These are high priests from every nation. Their job is to set apart, lead the church, ordain people who are coming into the Church of the Firstborn, which is kind of the people that are going to make it. Then he makes reference to the bridegroom coming. This is in verse 19 and can continues this idea of the 144,000 on Mount Zion. And by the way, the Mount Zion here is most likely the mountain in Jerusalem that the Temple is built on. Zion's a fluid term that we use for a lot of things. But the clue seems to be in verse 20. He says he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet and upon the mighty ocean, the great deep, upon the islands of the sea and upon the land of Zion. So Olivet is the mountain next to Zion. But he seems to be saying his presence is going to be everywhere.
- [16:00]
A
And this is a bit of a controversy here. We didn't think to put it in our controversy section, but it just occurs to me, maybe we should highlight it. Is the Mount of Olivet and the land of Zion two different places? Are we talking about Jerusalem and Jackson County, Missouri? Like in verse 21, the next verse, he'll utter his voice out of Zion and he will speak from Jerusalem. Is that two different places or is that just a parallelism? Is he just saying Zion? In other words, Jerusalem? This has been interpreted a couple different ways, hasn't it?
- [16:30]
B
Has and it seems like here he's talking about Zion and Jerusalem, but he's using the terms in a fluid sense. Like verse 24, the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, which there makes it sound like Jerusalem is one and Jackson county is the other. So it seems like when he's saying he's going to speak out of Zion, he's speaking from Jackson County, Missouri. But he's also intermingling older prophecies. Like standing upon Mount Zion is probably a reference to Jerusalem. The Mount of Olives, that area around.
- [17:03]
A
There, the patchwork here that is just so fluid of Old Testament prophecy, Book of Revelation, language, Isaiah, imagery of Babylonian captivity. Like, the way it's just woven so masterfully here is just beautiful. Like you're saying, like this Mount of Olivet imagery in an instant is then compared over to the land of Zion in Jackson County. It's just. I like your word. Fluid.
- [17:27]
B
Yeah. And it's a nice fusion of kind of the old and the new. The building of Zion in their time is the new exciting project, but they're also excited about the restoration of Jerusalem. And I mean, to them, too, this is around the time that they found out there was an ancient city called Zion that's even older than Jerusalem. So it's kind of a culmination of all these past threads coming together in one place. The key thing being the return of the true Messiah. The Second coming says verse 25, the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people and sh. Reign over all flesh. And then this is where we get to some of those passages that are controversial. We're going to talk about them. Verse 26. They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord and their prophets shall hear his voice and shall no longer stay themselves. And they shall smite the rocks and the ice shall flow down at their presence. We don't know strictly speaking, but here is kind of the best scholarship on the point. So it seems like the reference to the north countries is a symbolic reference to Israel in its scattered condition. It comes from Old Testament history, when the ten tribes, the Northern Kingdom, were conquered and deported to the north by the Assyrian Empire, and then they sort of disappear from history. So this is probably, like I said, shorthand for Israel in its scattered condition. Some people interpret this differently. Some people believe that, like, it's a literal place and they'll point to things like it says here that their prophets will hear his voice and they'll smite the rocks and the ice shall flow down. So you can hear all kinds of interpretations that they're in the North Pole. I had one guy in my ward growing up who believed that they were orbiting the star Polaris, that the north countries were literally the North Star. But the most simple explanation, and Occam's razor here, the most simple explanation is usually the best, is that this is a reference to their scattered conditions. In fact, about a century after this, Jeremiah in his book prophesied the day would come when God would, in Jeremiah's words, lead the children of Israel from the land of the north and all the lands whither he hath driven them. That's Jeremiah 16:15. Okay, so simplest explanation. They're in a scattered condition. God's going to unite them and bring them back home. However, verse 27 seems to argue for a more specific. A highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep. And this is another one of those passages that lead some to interpret section 133 to mean that there is a large group of Israelites somewhere and that they will return physically as a group to their homeland. However, these passages could also be symbolic in nature. Multiple passages in Scripture declare that the lost tribes are scattered among the nations of the earth, for instance. Okay, we're taking. Looking, we're harmonizing the scriptures here, right?
- [20:27]
A
Yeah, let's look at the broad canon. By the way, this is like a super important moment to use that skill of, like, what is consistently taught throughout Scripture. Rather than hyper focusing on one scripture and trying to take those words really literally. You can get off into some weird places. So, yeah, show us wisdom. Casey, give us a broad scope here on what does Scripture say generally or consistently.
- [20:52]
B
A broad reading of Scripture, meaning we're harmonizing multiple passages that talk about the same idea. First, maybe we go to Nephi. Nephi talks about this a lot, partially because he's part of this gathering, Right? He's part of the group that's going to go to the New World. Nephi says he gathereth his children from the four quarters of the earth, and he numbereth his sheep, and they know him. And there shall be one fold and one shepherd, and he shall feed his sheep, and in him they shall find pasture. That's one Nephi 22, 25, which again, sounds less like there's one body, just one place. Where the lost tribes are. Nephi says the four quarters of the earth, meaning they're kind of all over the place. Maybe they were in a large group at some point. There are some indications of that in the Book of Mormon. But in our day, in the latter days, it seems like they're thoroughly scattered. The same concept seems to be found in Isaiah 56, 8, Jeremiah 16, 15, 16. That's the passage that talks about hunters and fishers going to hunt and fish them out of the rocks and the holes in the mountains, which, again, doesn't sound like they're in one specific location. Matthew 23:37, 1 Nephi 10:14 and 19:16, 3 Nephi 5, 24, 26. And then Doctrine and Covenants 11011, which is where Moses gives Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery the keys to gather scattered Israel. All right, so the passages listed here are just sort of a sampling of scriptural passages that argue that there's a scattered condition for is. And I'm putting my money on saying there isn't one place where they're at right now, that they're all over the place. And they'll probably. Let's read these passages in a way that says it's possible that in a unified way they'll return or that the Lord is using metaphorical language to talk about them coming back together as a people and becoming united and strong because of the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
- [22:52]
A
That was really helpful. Yes. Scripture, the preponderance of scripture, as you've shown, talks about them scattered all over the place rather than in one place. And there's one kind of, I'd call it sketchy source where, you know, with section 130 of the doctrine and Covenants. We talked about this a couple weeks ago, where section 130 is really William Clayton's notes when Joseph was preaching, and there was a Q and A portion in there between meetings so many, many years later. One of Joseph's friends who was at that meeting, his name is Benjamin F. Johnson, he says William Clayton left. He didn't get this part in his notes. He says William Clayton wasn't there when someone asked the question about the 10 tribes. And Joseph said that the 10 tribes were in, like, the North Pole or, you know, in a place like under the polar ice caps or something like that. This is years later. It's a secondhand source. But he says William Clayton missed Joseph's answer to that one, where he says they are in the North Pole. So I don't like that source. It's super late. It's secondhand. It's not written by Joseph himself. Right. And it doesn't harmonize with anything else that Joseph Smith had ever received. The closest thing you could argue are these verses here, but as you've just shown, read in isolation, they mean one thing. Read in context of everything else Joseph had received. They don't seem to mean that. So someone might. I could just. I could just hear someone commenting and saying, like, what about that quote from Joseph? And like, well, careful with that source. That's all I'd say. I like Benjamin F. Johnson. I think he's a great guy. I think he either misremembered that one or I don't know what happened on that one. But there's nothing to indicate in Joseph's actual revelation that he believed that they're under the North Pole. I'm trying to keep a straight face while I say it, Casey, but I don't know anything else you've seen out there that would help on this question.
- [24:51]
B
I'm open to all possibilities. Like, I'm not going to close the door completely on them being in the North Pole. I remember on my mission, somebody handed me a packet that seemed like it had been photocopied many times, and it posited that the. The 10 tribes were in the North Pole and that they were inside the Earth, that that's where they entered the Earth, and that UFOs and things like that were just advanced technology possessed by the. By the ten tribes. That seems hard to square with what we know scientifically about the Earth. But I don't think that that's the most responsible reading of scripture now, at the same time, too, it does talk about some sort of grand return. Like, take a look in verse 28. Their enemies shall become prey to them. In the barren deserts, there shall come forth pools of living water, and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land. And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants. And this is where the tribe of Ephraim seems to come into play again. This is all playing with symbols from the Old Testament, because Ephraim, Israel is Joseph, Joseph is the son of Israel, that sort of prepares the way and then has a place ready when the rest of the brothers come down to Egypt. And he facilitates them being fed and taken care of and everything like that. So I think there's a little symbolism there.
- [26:17]
A
By the way, can we point out that Ephraim is one of the lost 10 tribes?
- [26:20]
B
It is. Yeah.
- [26:21]
A
Think about how many Ephraim have been gathered right now. Right. And where they gathered from among the nations of the earth. I mean, just as an example of one of the lost 10 tribes.
- [26:30]
B
Yeah. So if you're taking Ephraim as an example of how the gathering happens in the latter days, it doesn't seem like Ephraim was gathered together in one place. We're also comfortable with the idea that some people aren't literal descendants of Ephraim. They're just adopted. We really don't care if you're literal or adopted. You can be part of the family. But that does seem to indicate that this scattered condition is probably the more likely scenario that then there's a secret nation of Ephraimites there. And you know what's funny is there were statements in the 19th century from some church leaders who said that, like England and France were Ephraim, we have to be cautious, too, to say, hey, what we're emphasizing here are the blessings of the covenant, which sometimes come because of lineage, but really are available to anybody because of choices. This passage, which is either speaking metaphorically or if it's speaking literally, talks about the tribes actually being gathered to Ephraim. It says this, for instance, the boundaries of everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence, and there they shall fall down and be crowned with glory even in Zion by the hands of the servant of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows. And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever. So blessings to two specific tribes. List at the there. But again, I'm guessing the way we see the gathering of Ephraim, it's probably more likely that they're scattered.
- [28:01]
A
I want to share an Elder McConkie quote that I think is helpful about this whole idea. This is in his new Witness for the Articles of faith Book, page 520. Here he says this. There is something mysterious and fascinating about believing the 10 tribes are behind an iceberg somewhere in the land of the north, or that they're on some distant planet, like your friend, that will one day join itself with the earth, or that the tribe of Dan is in Denmark and the tribe of Reuben is in Russia and so forth. He's just poking all the different cultural references here, right? And then he says a common cliche asserts, quote, if we knew where the lost tribes were, they would not be lost. And then he says, true, it is that they are lost from the the knowledge of the world. They are not seen and recognized as the kingdom they once were, but in general terms their whereabouts is known. They are scattered in all the nations of the earth, primarily in the nations north of the lands of their first inheritance. Close quote. That's Elder McConkey's response to kind of some of those faith promoting rumors or whatever.
- [29:07]
B
Yeah, and this is another one of those places in the Doctrine and Covenants where we walk the line between the idea that God made Christ promises to faithful people, which is a real idea in the Scriptures, and not just promises to them, but promises to bless their posterity. Right. But we have to balance that idea with the idea too, that lineage isn't the important thing here. It's righteousness that a person's choices matter more than their lineage. And the way we describe the tribe of Ephraim, I think perfectly captures that. I'll say my patriarchal blessing says I'm of the tribe of Ephraim from I.
- [29:41]
A
Suspected this much about you, Casey.
- [29:44]
B
My family comes from northwestern Europe and I don't know if I'm a true Ephraimite or if I'm adopted. And I don't care, to be honest with you. There's no distinction in my mind. But I'm grateful to know that my blessings are associated with the tribe of Israel, that I'm a gatherer, that part of my work is to try and reach out and find people that will come unto Christ, accept the Gospel, make covenants and become Israel. Whether I'm finding my lost family or whether I'm bringing in new family, it's all good in my mind. So we can keep those two ideas in tension with each other as long as we don't downplay that the Lord did make significant promises to the ancient prophets, but we don't want to say that lineage is the most important factor. It's just a factor in the middle.
- [30:33]
A
Everything changes at the new covenant with Christ in the New Testament. Right. That's one of the major shifts in all of scriptural history is when he says to his apostles, now go out and teach the other nations that are not Israel and baptize them and make disciples of them. And then, and then Paul is called to be like the chief apostle out to the Gentiles. And he'll teach that as soon as a Gentile is baptized, they become of the house of Israel, they become the seed of Abraham. And who cares what your bloodlines are once you receive Christ, you're now in like I remember I had a roommate in College from Japan. He was from the tribe of Ephraim. Had fhe sister from Jamaica. She was from the tribe of Ephraim. I had another buddy from Albania, Ephraim. And I started thinking, like, what's happening here? You know? And I'm totally with you. Like, who cares if it's adopted or not adopted? Like, what matters is that you're in the covenant, that you've received Jesus and now you're part of the. You're an heir of all the promises God has made to Israel. That's culminating after the Second Coming with this group who's going to rule and reign with Christ. Like, the idea of taking it from house of Israel out to the Gentiles was just that, so that the Gentiles could be incorporated into this group. And so that's the beauty of it. And so, yeah, we shouldn't have any sort of sense of superiority of one tribe to another here. Who cares? As long as you're the house of Israel, as long as you're a seed of Abraham, that's really what matters here.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah, it's a royal family that anybody can be a part of. And that's the essential thing to remember. So in verse 36, verily, thus saith the Lord, that these things might be known unto you. O inhabitants of the earth, I've sent forth mine angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel who hath appeared unto some and hath committed it unto men, who shall appear unto men, many that dwell on the earth. So this is the message that the angels brought back. The building of Zion, the restoration of the house of Israel, all this good stuff is now in process. And here we are almost two centuries later, still trucking along, still hoping to make this happen.
- [32:43]
A
Yeah. Verses 36 through 40 here are directly referring to a prophecy recorded by John in the Book of Revelation. This idea of this angel flying through the midst of heaven. And fact, here's what John says. Quote, I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred and tongue and people. This is the verse that is now being sort of riffed into section 133 here. Verse 37 adds to this. It says, this gospel that this angel is declaring here. This Gospel shall be preached unto every nation and kindred and tongue and people. People. And the servants of God shall go forth saying with a loud voice, fear God and give glory to him. For the hour of his judgment is come. And Worship him that made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters, calling upon the name of the Lord day and night, saying, O, that thou wouldst rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence. Latter Day Saints have often interpreted this angel flying through the midst of heaven. That verse 36 is talking about as, as the angel Moroni who kind of kicks off this whole dispensation really. I mean, right after the first vision, the next thing is Moroni leading Joseph to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon now going out to the world, inviting everyone to come in. And that is one of the reasons why angel Moroni has been atop a lot of Latter Day Saint temples as that symbol of the declaration, loud voice, the call to gather, to come and prepare for the return of Jesus Christ. But of course, because the Book of Revelation and the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 133 here are apocalyptic and highly symbolic, the figure of the angel mentioned here would be not just the angel Moroni, but it could also be interpreted as all of the angelic messengers who played a role in restoring the Gospel that's going to go out to the nations. Like Section 27 of the Doctrine of Covenants, Section 128 have a lot of lists, because some extensive lists of those angels who had come and restored keys to Joseph, etc. Right. The list includes Michael and John the Baptist and Peter, James and John and Elias and Moses and Elijah. So we're not limited to just saying that angel in Book of Revelation is Moroni. Although that's been the traditional interpretation. It's a lot. Maybe it's a collective. Elder McConkey once said, maybe that's a collect, a reference to the collective of all the angels who helped to restore keys. But the point is that message, that restored message and authority is going out to invite everyone to come in to the covenant that God has made.
- [35:20]
B
You made a pretty good list of the angels that ministered to Joseph Smith. I just want to include a snippet here. This is from an 1879 discourse John Taylor gave. And he adds to the list too. He says the principles which he, meaning Joseph Smith, had placed him in communication with the Lord, and not only with the Lord, but with the ancient apostles, apostles and prophets. Such men, for instance, as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Adam, Seth, Enoch and Jesus and the Father and the apostles that lived on this continent, meaning the Nephite disciples, as well as those who lived on the Asiatic continent. He seemed to be as familiar with these People as we are with one another. Why? Because he had to introduce a dispensation which was called the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. And it was known as such by the ancient servants of God. So it was again, the angel on top of our temples, and we're not doing that right now. Is symbolic of all the angels of the Restoration, not just Moroni, though it's fun to call it Moroni, and it's a good nickname for him. So no major problems here. All right? So picking it up in verse 41, remember, this is the prayer of the faithful that are asking for the Lord to come. Verse 41 says that prayer shall be answered upon their heads. For the presence of the Lord shall be as the melting fire that burns burneth, and as the fire which causeth the waters to boil. And then the prayer continues. O Lord, thou shalt come down to make thy name known to thine adversaries. And all nations shall tremble at thy presence when thou doest. Terrible things, things they look not for. Yea, when thou comest down and the mountains flow down at thy presence thou shalt meet him who rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, who remembereth thee in thine ways. For since the beginning of the world have not men heard, heard, nor perceived by ear, neither hath any eye seen. O God, besides thee, how great things thou hast prepared for him that waiteth for thee. And it shall be said, and this is kind of an intriguing passage here. Who is it that cometh down from God in heaven in dyed garments, yea, from the regions which are not known, clothed in his glorious apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? And he shall say, I am he who spake in righteousness, mighty to save. And the Lord shall be red in his apparent barrel, and his garments shall be like him that treadeth the wine vent. And so great shall be the glory of his presence that the sun shall hide his face in shame, and the moon shall withhold its light, and the stars shall be hurled from their places, and his voice shall be heard. I have trodden the winepress alone and have brought judgment upon all my people. And none were with me. And I have trampled them in my fury. I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments and stained all my wrath raiment. For this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart. So, boy, these verses kind of capture the paradoxical nature of the great and the dreadful day of the Lord's return. This idea that it's both terrible and it's great. For those who've ignored the warnings found in the Scriptures, the day of the Lord's coming is dreadful. And for those who heeded the words of the Lord, Lord, and live faithfully, it's great. It's a time of wonder and rejoicing. And these two types of feelings about the Savior's second coming are captured throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. For instance, the Lord said, the time is soon at hand when I shall come in a cloud with power and great glory. And it shall be a great day at the time of my coming, for all nations shall tremble. That's from section 34, 7, 8. In another place, section 45, the Lord says, for when the Lord shall appear, he shall shall be terrible unto them, that fear may seize upon them, and they shall stand afar off and tremble, and all nations shall be afraid because of the terror of the Lord and the power of his might. So it's this potent imagery that it's going to be good and bad, depending on where you're at spiritually when the Savior returns to the earth. And then it puts in this striking image, which I don't think is found anywhere else other than section 133, that it gives any a description of what the Savior will be wearing when he comes to earth. It says, the Lord shall be red in his apparel and his garments, like him that treadeth the wine vat. Usually when we visualize the second Coming, we go to third. Nephi 11, right. And we're thinking about Jesus descending from the sky in a white robe. But here the Savior's dressed in red, and he gives the reason. He says, I've trodden the winepress alone and have brought judgment upon all people. None were with me. I've trampled them in my fury. I did tread upon them in my anger, and with their blood I have sprinkled upon my garments and stained all my raiment, for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart. So again, it's another one of these paradoxes where if I saw the Savior dressed in red and he said, I've trodden the winepress alone, my impulse would be to say, well, that must represent the blood of the righteous. That represents the people whose sins you took upon yourself to see Gethsemane and.
- [40:21]
A
Bleeding from every pore.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, all that beautiful Christian imagery that we associate with his atoning sacrifice. But he's also saying the blood of the wicked is intermingled here, too. It's A striking image. Right. But when you consider the conditions that are described as happening at the second Coming, it's the Savior bringing justice to those who have oppressed and hurt others and spilled a lot of blood on their own. So it's the Savior basically saying, I am coming and my robes will be stained with the blood of the righteous and the wicked, especially those who have immersed themselves in blood, who have flooded the world with blood since it was created. And again, you have to go through some major stuff to change the world we're in right now to the world that's going to exist after the Savior, your second coming.
- [41:13]
A
Wow. So that's a very graphic kind of climax of when he comes, we see him, enemies are subdued. That's another. That's a. That's a more PG way of saying it. In some scripture, like section 65 says, his enemies will be subdued. There you go. So this is the climax, those verses. And then. And then. Notice what follows. Then comes the catharsis. Is that the right word? The. Then comes the relief, the release from, like all those who remain, those who have endured his coming. They say these kinds of things. Picking up in verse 52. Now the year of my redeemed has come. And they shall mention. Here's what those who remain will mention, the loving kindness of their Lord. I just have to pause and think about the interesting juxtaposition of verse 52 with the verses you just read. He comes, squashes, tramples in his fury, the wicked. And then the thing that the redeemed will say is the loving kindness of our Lord is so great, and all that he has bestowed upon them, according to his goodness and according to his loving kindness, forever and ever. This is the day. This is the year of the redeemed. He calls it, in other words, the season of the emancipated by the Lord, those who've been rescued by the Lord, those who've come out from Babylon. Spiritual wickedness. This is the season. Season when all of God's promises of old will finally be realized at last. I know this came in English, Casey. Verse 52 is in English to the prophet who spoke English. But those words are really rich. They kind of remind me of some Old Testament words. This idea about God's loving kindness reminds me of the word that President Nelson helped bring to our consciousness. The word is Hesed. It's this word that's kind of this loyal love word. It's a word that represents, in Hebrew, this idea that God will never give up on his people. That even though it might be a long time before his promises are fulfilled. Because of the wickedness of the nations, he will not forget his promises and he will persist. President Nelson said this about that word. He said, because God has chesed for those who have covenanted with him, he will love them. He will continue to work with them and offer them opportunities to change. He will forgive them when they repent, and should they stray like Israel did, He will help them find their way back to him. And that's that covenant loyalty, or the way it's written in verse 52, his goodness and loving kindness forever and ever. It's that forever love that is going to be shouted when he comes again. I just love the imagery of that verse 52. And then in verse 53, it goes on, it says, in all their affairs, afflictions, he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them. And in his love and in his pity, he redeemed them and bore them and carried them all the days of old. Again, great imagery. Back to the Exodus story, by the way. That's the first story when the word redeemed starts to be used in Scripture. It's this idea of rescuing you from captivity and bondage. The angel of God's presence went before the children, children of Israel. He uses that same language here in verse 53. He redeemed us. He bore them and carried them all the days of old at Mount Sinai. In Exodus 19, he says to Israel, I bore you on eagle's wings out of Egypt, like I've been. I'm the one who did that in dramatic fashion. And so there's some echoes of that going to happen again with the Second Coming, just on a global scale. And then comes this really interesting list of prophets and their people, dispensational list, Starting in verse 54, of all the people who are going to be resurrected and come and join in this great feast, this climax of all the promises being fulfilled. Verse 54. Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him, the prophets who were before him, and Noah also, and they who were before him, and Moses also, and they who were before him, and from Moses to Elijah, and from Elijah to John, who are with Christ in his resurrection, and the holy apostles with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, shall be in the presence of the Lamb. And the graves of the saints shall be opened, and they shall come forth and stand on the right hand of the Lamb, when he shall stand upon Mount Zion and upon the holy city, the New Jerusalem, and they shall sing the song of the Lamb day And night forever and ever. So, so beautiful. This amazing reunion of all the dispensations, those who've shown faithfulness to Christ and Christ in his loving kindness, his chesed, his loyal love, has at last brought all those promises about. And here's the great reunion, the great wedding feast. Here we are rejoicing together. That's so powerful.
- [45:58]
B
Yeah, and it's a nice juxtaposition, right with those. My garments are stained with the blood of the women. Wicked passages to say. And now here's how I'm going to act towards those who are redeemed. I love the language here where it's talking in past tense, where it says, you know, the year of my redeemed and come. And all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness, his loving kindness forever and ever. In all their afflictions he was afflicted. The angel of his presence saved them in his love and his pity. He redeemed them, bore them and carried them. So it's him also saying, I've been with you this whole time. Time, really. I've been redeeming you, I've been carrying you, I've been helping you. But now I'm here and the major source of your troubles, the wickedness of the world is at an end. Like we've made it essentially.
- [46:41]
A
And let me read one more verse and I'll turn it back over to you. But I love verse 57, that kind of wraps this all together. He says, and for this cause, for this cause what's just happened, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, revealed in this millennial day. This is why the Lord sent forth the fullness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant. Reasoning in plainness and simplicity. This is what the story has been about all along the way. This is where it had all been heading from the beginning of time, from Enoch's day and those were before him, and Moses day and those were before him. And this is why in our day the everlasting covenant has been sent forth. And, and when I read that verse, Casey, it made me think of 17 year old Joseph Smith in his bedroom with an angel who's patiently trying to explain to Joseph the significance about what's about to happen through him. And I love his retelling of this. In 1842, when Joseph summarizes Moroni's message this way, he said, this messenger proclaimed himself to be an angel of God, sent to bring the joyful tidings that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel. Israel was at hand to be fulfilled, right? Those promises about his. His chesed and his everlasting love and kindness, that he's eventually going to gather Israel again. He's never going to give up on them like all of that. This angel saying is about to be fulfilled. Why that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence. Joseph said that Moroni said, and that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness, this everlasting covenant to be preached in power unto all nations, that a people might be prepared for the millennial reign. This has always been the story from the beginning of the restoration, right? There are ancient covenants, promises that need to be fulfilled. And through you, Joseph, and the work you're going to inaugurate that that's going to happen. And the people will be prepared for the millennial reign. And section 133 is just like painting that story of what's it going to look like when that's all happened? So that's so cool. It's profound.
- [48:44]
B
And then, you see, Starting in verse 59, this is where the sisterhood with section one comes into play, right? Actually, let's start in verse 58. To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord's errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight by the weak things of the earth. The Lord shall thresh the nation by the power of his Spirit. Again, section one, the introduction of the Doctrine and Covenant makes the same promise that the weak things of the world are going to overthrow the wickedness. So there's thematic ties here, but he goes a little bit further and explains how the weak things of the world can do this. Verse 61. This is according to the mind and will of the Lord, who ruleth over all flesh. And unto him that repenteth and saith, sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life. And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people, and also that which was written by the prophet Malachi. For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall leave them neither root nor Branch Wherefore this shall be the answer of the Lord unto to them. And that day when I came unto minone, no man among you received me, and you were driven out. When I called again, there was none of you to answer. Yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem neither my power to deliver. Behold, at my rebuke, I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness. Their fish stink and die for thirst. I clothe the heavens with blackness and make sackcloth their covering. And this ye shall have of my hand, ye shall lie down in sorrow. So again, he's emphasizing this idea that at the second coming, one of the things the Savior, maybe with a tinge of sadness, is going to have to say is, I gave you chance after chance after chance to accept this. Now you're going to have to, unfortunately, deal with the consequences. Then he says, verse 71, There are none to deliver you, for you obeyed not my voice when I called you out of the heavens. Ye believed not my servants when they were sent unto you, and ye received them not. Therefore they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness. These shall go away in outer darkness, where there's weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Behold the Lord. Your God hath spoken it. Amen. So section one kind of opens with this. Here's the purpose of the restoration. We're giving everybody one last chance to accept the gospel. Section 133, unfortunately, is the Lord stating, there has to be a point to where I say, you had a chance. Now the consequences have to be played out. You had an opportunity to be led, delivered. You weren't. I think there's still more to the story where the Savior is going to continue working with them, but that we have to end the test essentially. We have to basically wrap things up and move into the next phase of the plan of salvation. So, gosh, a scary section, an awesome section, a section that shows that the Savior does have his limits. Like, at a certain point, he's going to say, that's enough. I'm interviewing, intervening, but also that he's intervening right now on behalf of the righteous, that the Savior really is an active force in the lives of those who allow him to be. And he's helping us through our challenges right now.
- [52:08]
A
Yeah. And, Casey, as you're talking about section 133 showing really clearly that there is like a time when Jesus is going to say, time's up. It made me think of Elder Holland's talk way back in 2012, it's called the Labor Laborers in the Vineyard. And I think, by the way, that this quote is a good kind of summary of section 133. I don't know if Elder Holland intended to do that, but as I think of 133 and I think of this, like, just think about how they go together. He says, so if you've made covenants, keep them. If you haven't made them, make them. If you've made them and broken them, repent and repair them. It is never too late. So long as the Master of the Vineyard says, there is time. Please listen to the prompting of the the Holy Spirit telling you right now, this very moment, that you should accept the atoning gift of the Lord Jesus Christ and enjoy the fellowship of his labor. And Elder Holland says, don't delay. It's getting late. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. What a great encapsulation of the message of section 133.
- [53:06]
B
Beautiful stuff. So, again, if we'd ended the Doctrine and Covenants here, it'd be a great ending, and maybe we should read it that way. Maybe that's what the Lord intended. There's other sections to come, and I love the messages of them. Stuff like section 138, I wouldn't trade for anything in the world. But, you know, you could think thematically that this is the end of the Doctrine covenants, that Section 1 and Section 133 summarize its message.
- [53:32]
A
Yes. Okay. Well, let's head to the controversies. Our third C here of section 133. Casey, we already talked about one of the major controversies of this section, which is, are the lost 10 tribes a really lost, and are they really in the land of the north? And what does that mean? And I think we've maybe done an okay job going through some of the controversy there. Anything you want to add on that controversy before we maybe introduce another one?
- [54:02]
B
I want to say I'm sympathetic towards people that might favor the theory that the 10 tribes are all in one place. That's not as out there as it sounds. In Third Nephi, for instance, the Savior does say he's going to visit the 10 tribes and that they're keeping a record, which sounds like, at least at that point in time, they may have been a united people in one place. And section 133 talks about their prophets and talks about them coming forth. But my problem is it just seems like if you read section 133 in a vacuum without anything else, that's the only way you can really make that case. Seems like almost every other passage in Scripture does depict this scattered condition that they're in. So I think there's a lot of stuff that we don't know about how the history of the earth has happened. The Book of Mormon was certainly a game changer, gave us a whole other story of Christ working with people in a different part of the world. And one of the reasons why I love being a Latter Day Saint is it globalizes the story of Jesus Christ. It's not just a story about a group of people in the Middle east, it's a story about the people in the Americas. And I love the idea that there's more to the story out there that one day we'll have fulfilled. But we ought to be really cautious with getting too crazy about what section 133 says. All Scripture has to be weighed against other scriptures. And 133, let's face it, is an apocalyptic text which tends to speak in broad archetypes, big, broad paintbrushes without a lot of subtlety. And so I would say it's way more plausible that they're in their scattered condition. But I'm not going to kick anybody out of the church that thinks they live near the North Star or in the North Pole. Just doesn't seem like that works when you look at the harmonized canon.
- [55:47]
A
You did bring up another thing we didn't really hit on, which is section133 does talk about their prophets and their records which they're going to bring with them when they're gathered. And, and that is intriguing. So I do want to just share one quote about that from Elder McConkey again in that same book, his new Witness for the Articles of Faith, he says, the lost tribes are not lost unto the Lord. In their northward journeyings, they were led by prophets and inspired leaders. They had their Moses and their Lehi were guided by the Spirit of Revelation, kept the law of Moses, and carried with them the statutes and judgments which the Lord had given them them in age past. They were still a distinct people many hundreds of years later for the Resurrected Lord. You mentioned this, Casey. The Resurrected Lord visited and ministered among them, following his ministry on this continent among the Nephites, obviously He taught them in some way and gave them some truths which he gave his followers in Jerusalem and on the American continent. And obviously they recorded his teachings, thus creating volumes of Scripture comparable to the Bible and Book of Mormon. So I like that, that idea that like, like they were clumped together For a while I think about the Nephites are a perfect example of this, right? They literally are like scattered in the Book of Mormon. Like the Book of Mormon itself is the record of a scattered people. We just happen to have their record. But then today would we say all the Book of Mormon peoples are still living in the same area? We would not say that they have been diffused. They are all over the place. And so maybe that's a reconciling point between the two camps, right? To say there were pockets of scattered Israel. But. But today, boy, the day in which the prophecies are going to be fulfilled about the gathering, they seem to be really emphasizing that this is from the scattered Israel all over the world. And so maybe that helps reconcile both. Are we going to get more scripture? Are we going to get more records as the gathering continues? I'm game. Let's do it. 2 Nephi 29 suggest that the day will come when we will get more records too. So what will that be like? Who knows? Stay tuned. But I'm down.
- [57:49]
B
Let me ask you one so this always strikes me when I read section 133. It seems that a passage in here is suggesting that a huge portion of the resurrection of the righteous has already occurred. This isn't found in a lot of other places, but is it saying that everybody who was righteous that lived before Christ was resurrected with Christ? Verse 54 and verse 55 it says yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him, the prophets who were before him, and Noah also, and they who were before him, and Moses also, and they who were before him, and from Moses to Elijah, from Elijah to John, who were with Christ in his resurrection and the holy apostles with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob shall be in the presence of the Lord Lamb. When it says they were with Christ in his resurrection, it really makes it sound like all the righteous that he's listing there were resurrected. And I'm comfortable with that. I mean, I think we refer to Moroni as a resurrected person and Peter and James were probably resurrected John the Baptist. But are we saying the resurrection might not just be a handful of people necessary to carry on keys that it could be, you know, a couple million people. Do you think that's what the passage is saying?
- [59:07]
A
I think you're right. I think there's open interpretation for that to be the case. Made me think of Abinadi in Mosiah 15. He strikes on this theme as well about who comes forth in the first resurrection. And he seems to suggest that it's all the righteous who live before Christ. Here's what he says in Mosiah 15 verses, let's do 20 through 22. Behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the sun reigneth, and hath all power over the dead. Therefore he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection, yea, even a resurrection of those that have been and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ. For so shall he be called now the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those who have believed in their words, or all those who kept the commandments of God shall come forth in the first resurrection. Therefore they are the first resurrection. So he makes it sound like literally, it's those who have lived before Christ, everyone all the way up into Christ's resurrection. Now, could that be hyperbole? Sure. I don't know. I've thought about that sometimes. I've gone to, like, museums and I've seen, like, bones of people who live B.C. you know, and I've thought to myself, like, are we looking at a wicked person? Does it mean that every bone that we find, a human bone, before Jesus's resurrection must be of a person who was not righteous, not resurrected? Like, I don't know. I don't know if this is hyperbole or not, but the point is there is. There was a massive resurrection at Jesus's resurrection. Matthew mentions it briefly. It's mentioned a little bit in the Book of Mormon that people actually arose from their graves and went into the city and showed themselves to people.
- [60:50]
B
That seems to be the other passage that people connect with this verse is that brief mention in Matthew that the graves were opened and many dead were seen in the city. It's just this feels like a big deal, bigger and maybe more deserving of attention than it gets in these three passages that we've cited so far. Like, we always think of the resurrection as a future event, something that's going to happen. And for most of us, that's true. But this seems to be saying that a significant portion of the resurrection has already happened. I don't know. It's just one of those passages that they say it's so fast that I want more information on that.
- [61:30]
A
Yeah, how do you keep that out of the news, right, that, you know, all these people resurrected. Millions probably, like you said. How does that not make it into the history books? Except for one pass passage in Matthew and one passage in the Book of Mormon, in fact, Jesus, that's one of the things he says when he comes to the Nephites, Lamanites, he says, did not Samuel prophesy that that would happen? And they say, yes. And he's like, did you write it down? And they're like, oh shoot, no. And so he says, write that down, write that down. Remember how people actually came and appeared? And so that was a point of of note for Jesus. Like the first resurrection has begun.
- [62:03]
B
And maybe we don't do a great job teaching them or emphasizing that. But yeah, we're in the midst of the resurrection, or at least a major portion of it has already taken place. I guess the big bulk of the resurrection is yet to take place. But that's just another thing that I looked at and thought, do we believe that? Yeah, you've done a great job. Correlated it to two other scriptures. That increases my doctrinal confidence. But I'm still thinking there's more to that story. Story that I'd love to know.
- [62:33]
A
Yeah. Okay, well, let me ask you a question. One more controversy here from this section. This was given in 1831, the context of the time when it mentioned Zion. We have some clear coordinates, right? We're talking about Jackson County, Missouri. The gathering will happen. A people will come out of all the nations of the earth and then Jesus will come to that people. Right? That in 1831, that picture is crystal clear. But now that you know Zion in Jackson County, Missouri is not the thing, and now that the gathering is not really happening to one location, how should we read the prophecies about the gathering in section 133? I guess that's my question. Knowing that in 1831 context it probably meant one thing. What should it mean in our context, knowing that Jackson County, Missouri is not the location to gather now?
- [63:19]
B
Good question. If we're willing to deliteralize the gathering of the 10 tribes tribes, are we willing to deliteralize the gathering to build Zion? I would say no. We have argued about this like almost since we started doing this this year. I still believe Zion is a city that's going to be built in Independence, Missouri. And you're saying you don't think so? Like the latest word is that we don't have to do that. That's from section 124. I'm comfortable with both, but I lean towards more little literal interpretation. And again, that's me reading the scriptures in a broad harmonized way. I think if you look at the harmonized messages in the Doctrine and Covenants, it still seems clear that there's going to be a Zion like this passage in Section 133, where it talks about Zion and Jerusalem seems to be literal. Like, Jerusalem isn't a metaphorical place. It's a real place. And in the same sentence, the Lord talks about the land of Zion and the land of. Of Jerusalem, which makes me think it's literal. But you're right. This was received before Section 124, which you're saying takes away that commandment. But I just think it's easier to reconcile section 124 if you say the Lord was saying, you don't have to do this right now, but we're going to do this eventually.
- [64:33]
A
Yeah, I'll pause our ongoing debate about that. I won't weigh in on that right now. But I do want to make one comment from President Nelson I thought was super insightful. This was back in 2007. The talk is called the Gathering of Scattered Israel. He weighed in on, like, how. How should we do it now? All right, I think this is right. It's relevant. Like, whether or not one day we come back to one city or not. Who knows? But how should we do it now? I love this quote. He said, the choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location. It's a matter of individual commitment. People can be brought to the knowledge of the Lord without leaving their homelands. True. Here's what he says. In the early days of the church, conversion often meant emigration as well. But now the gathering takes place in each nation. The Lord has decreed the establishment of Zion in each realm where he has given his saints their birth and nationality. That's a super interesting line. And then he says, Scripture foretells that the people, quote, shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance and shall be established in all their land. Lands plural of promise. Every nation, he says, is the gathering place for its own people. The place of gathering for Brazilian saints is in Brazil. The place of gathering for Nigerian saints is in Nigeria. The place of gathering for Korean saints is in Korea, and so forth. Zion is the pure in heart. So he reaches for section 97, where the Lord defines Zion as the pure in heart. There. I like that. Zion, he goes on, is wherever righteous saints are. Publications, communications and congregations are now such that nearly all members have access to the doctrines, keys, ordinances and blessings of the Gospel. Regardless of their location. Spiritual security will always depend on how one lives, not where one lives. Saints in every land have equal claim upon the blessings of the Lord. That's pretty good.
- [66:26]
B
Yeah, I'm comfortable having those two ideas exist in My mind. Right. Like, we're not going to ask people that live in Nigeria to come to Independence, Missouri. But I'm also comfortable with the idea that the headquarters of the church will be in Independence, Missouri, and a city will be built there. And you can still have flourishing congregations all around the globe that are gathering to Zion. As in Zion is the pure in heart, like the idea of Zion. And I'll say even the idea of Jerusalem are fluid. Right. They basically suggest a righteous society. And sometimes maybe we do emphasize the geography a little too much, but we also don't want to underemphasize the geography too.
- [67:06]
A
Yeah. So it's helpful as we read section 133 in our modern day to kind of have both of those ideas in mind. They meant Jackson County, Missouri. But our modern current commission is gather where you live until further notice. Right. Is that fair?
- [67:21]
B
Yeah, that's what we're doing right now. But we could change in the future. Future. So we're open to that.
- [67:26]
A
Perfect. Okay, let's go to our fourth C, section 133. Let's wrap this up. What are the consequences of section 133?
- [67:38]
B
Section 133 is. Is a sister section to section 1. And it emphasizes the same themes that section 1 brings up. That something has gone wrong with the world. And the Savior's about to emphasize. Emphasize it to fix it. But that that fixing is going to be a heavy duty remodel. The Lord's going to have to knock down some walls to make space for the kingdom of God, essentially. At the same time, too, the Lord also speaks of mighty miracles, carried out by a phrase that shows up in both sections a lot. The weak things of the earth. That the weak things of the earth are going to become these great instruments that the Lord uses to overturn the injustice and the iniqu. Iniquity that's existed for as long as possible. And I mean, if you're taking these both as revelations received in section 131, I'm sort of encouraged, to be honest with you. Like, a lot of the systems that were oppressing people in 1831 have been overturned. The colonial system. Right. This small group of countries exploiting all these others, slavery. A lot of the major societal problems we've started, started to address. We've still got a really long ways to go. And I'll be the first person to tell you, we're struggling. Right. But we've started to raise our sights and ask ourselves, really, could we fix this? What could we do differently? And So I think the message is ultimately really hopeful now. It's hopeful for the righteous, it's terrible for the wicked. It's supposed to, like I said, fill you with a desire to see the future and a hope to know that things are going to turn out okay. Okay. But at the same time, too, if a person needs to repent, there's a little fear here. Right. To try and motivate them to make the changes that are necessary. So it's great and it's terrible. That's the phrase that gets shown over and over again in Scripture to just illustrate the idea that it splits people down the middle, that it causes people to think and wonder about how good things are going to be and other people to cower in fear about how scary the Second Coming can be.
- [69:41]
A
Yeah, I'm coming back to that phrase from Elder Holland. Don't delay. It's getting late at section 133. Love it. We're going to park this episode here on its own. Meet us in our next episode to cover Section 134 for this week's Come Follow me. We'll see you soon.
- [69:56]
B
Okay.
- [70:06]
A
Sam.