199 - Priesthood & Women in the Early Church | Church History Matters I Women & Priesthood Series

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Priesthood & Women in the Early Church | Church History Matters I Women & Priesthood Series"

Podcast: Church History Matters – Episode 199
Host: Scripture Central
Date: April 7, 2026
Guests: Scott, Casey, Lisa

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Overview:

This episode is part of a broader series on the historical relationship between women and the priesthood within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). The discussion focuses on the founding, evolution, and ecclesiastical significance of the Relief Society (the LDS women’s organization) from its origins in Nauvoo through its institutional development in Utah. The hosts explore how the Relief Society was intertwined with priesthood patterns, the rise of other women-led organizations, and the role LDS women played in both the Church and public spheres during the 19th century.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nauvoo Relief Society: Foundation and Priesthood Model

[04:26] – [13:26]

• The hosts review the founding narrative: Margaret Cook and Sarah Granger Kimball sought to organize a sewing society to aid temple construction, enlisting Eliza R. Snow to draft bylaws.
• Joseph Smith reviewed the bylaws and remarked:

  “I have desired to organize the sisters in the order of the priesthood. I now have the key by which I can do it.” ([00:00], [04:26])

• Joseph Smith, at the organization on March 17, 1842, outlined the goal as forming the society "in the order of the priesthood," not just as an auxiliary group.
• Emma Smith was nominated as "elect lady" and president, with her prior ordination (1830) referenced as being fulfilled in this role.

Memorable Quotes:

• Joseph Smith (via Sarah Granger Kimball's recollection):

  "The organization of the Church of Christ was never perfect until the women were organized… I will organize you in the order of the priesthood after the pattern of the church." ([15:09], [24:29])

Structural Parallels to Priesthood:

• Relief Society mirrored priesthood quorum structure: president, two counselors, officers ("ordained" to preside).
• Women could nominate and at times elect their own leaders; ordinations for counselors performed by priesthood leaders like John Taylor.
• Relief Society was not just an “auxiliary” but patterned "after the priesthood" and at times described as "part of the priesthood" ([18:50]).

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2. Dormancy and Revitalization During the Trek West

[26:57] – [31:20]

• Relief Society largely went dormant for ~20 years after the Saints’ exodus from Nauvoo.
• Disruption from evacuation and resettlement was a major factor, possibly more than Brigham Young’s personal reservations about organized societies.
• Some local voluntary efforts persisted; Indian Relief Societies emerged, focused on supporting Native Americans ([29:31]).

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3. Utah Reorganization and the Rise of Women’s Ecclesiastical Influence

[31:22] – [44:06]

• Late 1860s: Brigham Young commissioned Eliza R. Snow to (re)organize Relief Societies in every ward.
• Relief Society spread rapidly as Eliza R. Snow traveled throughout Utah, guided by foundational minutes from Nauvoo.
• Brigham Young to bishops:

  “Let [your wives] organize Female Relief Societies in the various Wards… the sisters will be the mainspring of the movement.” ([31:22])

• Relief Society and School of the Prophets paralleled (one for women, one for men) as community-building, charitable, and spiritual organizations.

Eliza R. Snow’s Leadership:

• She carried minutes from Nauvoo, using them as a constitution and teaching tool.

  "Although the name Relief Society may be of modern date, the institution is of ancient origin." ([44:06])

• Relief Society, under Eliza, set the standard for women's authority and organization throughout LDS communities.

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4. Patterned Expansion: New Women’s Organizations

[48:19] – [61:14]

• Out of the Relief Society’s revitalization, multiple women-led organizations evolved:
  • Ladies Cooperative Retrenchment Association: Focused on economic retrenchment and simplification.
  • Young Ladies’ Department: Eventually became the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement Association (YLMIA).
  • Primary Association: For children, established 1878.

On Retrenchment:

• Brigham Young’s call to “retrench”—cut back on luxury and maintain spiritual focus—was foundational for female organizational identity and was connected to wider economic and social conditions ([49:33]).

Integrated Auxiliaries:

• By 1880, with stake and general (church-level) presidencies for Relief Society, YLMIA, and Primary, these organizations operated under the emerging “auxiliary” concept, patterned after priesthood quorums.

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5. Autonomy, Structure, and “Auxiliary” Status

[61:20] – [67:28]

• Relief Society units were initially very local and autonomous, with no formal manuals—meeting frequency, activities, and membership varied.

• Notable practice: Visiting teachers/teachers quorums for women (first seen explicitly in Sarah Kimball’s 15th Ward), paralleling priesthood teachers ([63:17]-[65:09]).

  “The teachers in the Relief Society were parallel to the teachers in the Aaronic priesthood…” – Lisa ([64:08])

• As institutions matured, differentiation and hierarchy increased, but tension over autonomy v. oversight by priesthood leaders persisted.

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6. Women’s Broader Public Influence: Suffrage, Medicine, and More

[73:47] – [86:38]

• Relief Society became a springboard for advocacy and activism:

  • Suffrage: LDS women were early voters in Utah (first election 1870, shortly after Wyoming) ([73:47]-[78:11]).

    “Utah women become the first women to vote under an equal suffrage law in the United States.” – Lisa ([73:47])

  • LDS women’s suffrage involvement prompted national attention, despite anti-polygamy prejudice.
  • The Woman’s Exponent (newspaper): Led by Emmeline Wells, gave LDS women a collective voice and linked LDS efforts with national women’s movements ([81:29]-[83:05]).

    “She’s another huge figure here. And she also eventually becomes president of the Relief Society, General president.” – Casey ([83:05])

• Medicine:

  • LDS women trained as doctors (e.g., Romania Pratt, Martha Hughes Cannon) with Relief Society support.
  • Deseret Hospital (1882) was founded, run, and staffed by LDS women.

    “Deseret Hospital was a female run, female staffed medical organization.” – Lisa ([86:09])

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7. Transition to the 20th Century & Legacy

[87:09] – [95:13]

• By the 1880s, Relief Society, YLMIA, and Primary had general presidencies and boards at the church level.
• Youth organizations moved from being “daughters” of the Relief Society to “sisters” with the Young Men’s organization—eventually forming the MIA (Mutual Improvement Association).

  “This becomes... the leading edge of the breakdown of the separate spheres model...” – Lisa ([90:54])

• The groundwork set in the 19th century for autonomy, leadership, and public engagement set a precedent for LDS women’s expanded roles in the 20th century.

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Memorable Quotes, Attributed & Timestamped

• Joseph Smith (as reported by Sarah Granger Kimball):

  “I have desired to organize the sisters in the Order of the Priesthood.” ([00:00])

• Eliza R. Snow:

  “Joseph Smith believed the Relief Society to be a part of the priesthood as much as the elders quorum, only that it belonged exclusively to the sisters.” ([18:50]) “The Relief Society is an organization that cannot exist without the priesthood from the fact that it derives all its authority and influence from that source.” ([44:06])

• Lisa:

  “If you’re not equal in temporal things, you can’t be equal in spiritual things.” ([49:33])

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Relief Society Organization & Authority: [04:26]–[15:09]
• Women’s Leadership Structure Mirroring Priesthood: [10:12]–[13:26]
• Impact and Dormancy During Migration: [26:57]–[31:20]
• Reestablishing Relief Society in Utah & Eliza R. Snow’s Central Role: [31:22]–[44:06]
• Development of Retrenchment, Young Women’s, and Primary Organizations: [48:19]–[61:14]
• Integration into Public Sphere: Suffrage and Medicine: [73:47]–[86:38]
• Consolidation and International Expansion (lead-in to next episode): [87:09]–end

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Conclusion and Natural Flow:

The episode underscores the complex, dynamic relationship between women, priesthood structure, and ecclesiastical authority in early and developing LDS history. The hosts repeatedly stress how women’s organizations were not "add-ons" but emerged as integral parts of church life, fostering female leadership and public activity. Their autonomy, influence, and outreach were both reflections of their time and a catalyst for broader social progress—inside and outside the church.

Preview:
The hosts promise to explore the transition into the 20th century—the challenges and transformations as the LDS Church grew internationally and as women's organizations adapted to changing roles and expectations.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Scott]

I have desired to organize the sisters in the Order of the Priesthood.

[Casey]

It mirrors the structure of the priesthood quorums that already exist in the church.

[Lisa]

Relief Society, I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Was not the first women's organization in the United States.

[Casey]

Relief Societies are going to relieve us of our best men.

[Scott]

Joseph Smith believed the Relief Society to be a part of the priesthood as much as the elders quorum.

[Lisa]

And if you're not equal in temporal things, you can't be equal in spiritual things.

[Casey]

I think it's fair to say that she's kind of the engine that recreates Relief Society. That really starts it going.

[Lisa]

The Relief Society puts women in a position to exercise every virtue and give scope to the benevolent feelings of the female heart.

[Scott]

The Relief Society has no legitimacy in the church without being sanctioned by the first Presidency.

[Lisa]

This organization then takes a different trajectory.

[Casey]

Hello, Lisa. Hello, Scott.

[Scott]

Hello, Casey.

[Lisa]

Hello, Scott.

[Scott]

Casey and Lisa,

[Casey]

nice to see you again. And we're continuing our series on women and the church and priesthood and all kinds of things. Mentally, I was trying to capture what we've done, which I feel like happens with every topic, which is that old scene where a guy opens a door and just stuff pours out on him more than he anticipated. But the only place I can think of where that applies is in that episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk opens the door and the tribbles all fall out on him. But that's too nerdy for a podcast that is already pretty nerdy. So the point is, yeah, we have opened a can of worms, and that's okay. It's fun, and it's been delightful to go through this with the two of you.

[Scott]

And, Casey, how fun is it to have Lisa with us throughout this whole series? Think this has been so awesome. So, Lisa, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Casey]

Yeah, Lisa, the only thing is, you're making us look bad because you know the sources so well. And Scott and I like to act like, you know, we know a thing or two. We're just not in the same league as you when it comes to this subject. So your expertise is greatly appreciated.

[Lisa]

It's just a function of what I spend my days immersed in.

[Scott]

So cool.

[Casey]

And. And in some ways, I'm jealous, and in some ways I'm like, I don't know if I can handle, um, all the stuff that you guys do in the church history department. Just grateful that you're here and grateful to share your Cliff Notes with people, essentially.

[Scott]

Yeah. And then, listeners, you should know that the outlines for Every episode so far this series have been done by Lisa, so she's kind of laying this out for us. Casey and I are adding our two cents here, but Lisa, thank you. So with that, we should, we should dive in.

[Casey]

And let me add one other thing too, if you like what we've been talking about. There is just a mountain of source material to draw from. Just to point to 1. The discourses of Eliza R. Snow were published just a couple weeks ago. And Lysa, you were saying how many discourses are actually in the physical book? What's the number?

[Lisa]

I think in the physical book there are something like 52.

[Casey]

Okay, but how many Discourses are there?

[Lisa]

Yeah, you can do the math, because on Church Historians Press, we have the complete Discourses of Eliza R. Snow. That's about 1200 52. It's a robust selection, but it is a fraction of what there is.

[Casey]

So any aspiring historians out there, that's a mountain of material that you could make a pretty good career out of, to be honest with you. So we'll just refer you to some of those places. Let me do a quick 30 second summary of what we've talked about so far. We've reviewed the history of how priesthood has been defined, we've talked a little bit about women's relationship to the priesthood, and then we spent the last two episodes looking at women's healing practices and spiritual gifts, which has all been incredible. What we're going to look at today is the ecclesiastical presence of women within the church. And that's going to put us directly focusing on the founding of Relief Society and then the organizations that grow out of that movement too, which includes the Young Women's Organization and others. So let's dive right in.

[Scott]

Yeah, and let me just kind of tee up the Relief Society story real quick. I think many of our listeners are generally familiar with the story of the founding of the Relief Society in Nauvoo, but let's just quickly review it here. So our sources for this. We've got the Nauvoo Relief Society minutes, like the original minutes, which have been published within the first 50 years. Material that's online on the church's website on the Church app. So good. We also have some recollections of Sarah Granger Kimball in the 1880s as she reflects back on it. So we're going to be quoting from both of those sources today as we talk through this stuff. So here's the brief sketch. Margaret Cook and Sarah Granger Kimball had this idea in Nauvoo to, to come up with a sewing society, which would be a group of women who could support the men who were working on the Nauvoo Temple at the time. They recruited their friend Eliza R. Snow to write the bylaws of their sewing society, which I didn't even know you needed to do back in the day was get bylaws to start a sewing society. But yeah, they were taking this super serious. Eliza obliges, and then she actually takes the bylaws and thought she would run them past the prophet Joseph Smith, which she did. And when he looked through it, he said, this is the best I've ever seen, best women's constitution I've ever seen of this sort. But then he said, but the Lord has something better for the sisters of the church. In fact, let me quote directly from this. This would be one of those Sarah Granger Kimball reflections. In the 1880s, she said, quote, he, Joseph, pronounced it the best constitution that he had ever read, and then remarked, this is not what the sisters want. There is something better for them. I have desired to organize the sisters in the order of the priesthood. I now have the key by which I can do it. So on March 17, 1842, 20 women gathered in the upper room of the red brick store, Joseph Smith's red brick store. And Joseph is there, along with John Taylor and Willard Richards, two apostles. And he proposes that this happen, this Relief Society gets organized and we. And we're going to be off to the races. We'll tell more details about that in a moment. But very interesting framing that the prophet gives to this right from the get go. Right. This isn't just going to be a Sister Society. It's going to be organized, quote, in the order of the priesthood. So lots of juicy stuff to talk about with that today.

[Lisa]

Yeah. One of the great things about the Nauvoo Relief Society minutes is that we get Joseph Smith's words teaching directly to the women of the church. This is the only place we have that there are, I believe, seven discourses that Joseph Smith gives to the Relief Society over the course of 1842 and 43. So it's really valuable. And Eliza Arsenow, of course, is taking minutes. And as I often say, we could just wish that she had followed Joseph around all the time writing down what he said, because her notes of his sermons are about as good as anything we have. So let's just talk a little bit about what happened. So Joseph stands up and right away, you know, they all know what they're there for. They all know the purpose of this meeting. But President Joseph Smith stands to address the society to, quote, illustrate the object of the society. They use that word object. It just means, like the goal or the purpose.

[Scott]

Purpose.

[Lisa]

So why are we doing this? So Joseph says, quote, that the sisters might provoke the brethren to good works in looking to the wants of the poor. So Susie Young Gates used to say, we'll provoke the brethren to do to good works, but we will not be provoking while we do it. So however you want to take that. That. That term. Joseph seems to understand that it's often women who will lead out and discern the needs of people in the community, searching after objects of charity, or, in other words, people who need help and administering to their wants. So this is fundamental. We're going to help people. We're going to take care of people, and then to assist by correcting the morals and strengthening the virtues of the female community and save elders the trouble of rebuking that they may give their time to other duties, et cetera, in their public teaching. So as women, we're going to look out for the morals of the community. And then later, Joseph says, all I shall have to give to the poor, I shall give to this society. And he gave Emma a coin as kind of symbolic of that intention, that this will be the kind of the base for organized charity work in the community. Now, we should add, there are, of course, already bishops at this point, and since 1831, we've had bishops. We've had the idea of a storehouse, We've had the law of consecration. So the idea of taking care of the poor and needy is a bedrock priority and principle for the church. But up until this point, to the extent that it's been happening, it's been less formal, and to the extent that it was formal under the purview of the bishop. And so this represents a real expansion of women's responsibility and acknowledged status in the community, even in this already established priority for the church.

[Casey]

And that's a good summary of the purpose of Relief Society. But one of the things that's really interesting about Relief Society is its organization. Joseph Smith seems to envision Relief Society taking its place after the pattern of the church or after the pattern of the priesthood. And that's the wording that's in some of these early documents with official position and authority. So if we run down the line, Joseph Smith proposed that the sisters elect a presiding officer to preside over them, that the presiding officer should choose two counselors to assist in the duties of her office, and that he would ordain them, and that's the word they use in all these documents. Ordain them to preside over the society and then let them preside, just as the presidency preside over the church. These are all phrases that are used around the time. And then he notes that if they need his instruction, ask him, and he will give it from time to time, and that the presidency will actually serve as the constitution. So if they're going back to that constitution that Eliza R. Snow wrote, it seems like when Joseph Smith says, I have something better in mind, it was that they would have their own leaders and. And that the leaders would act as a sort of living constitution. Is that correct to say, Lisa?

[Lisa]

Yeah, but I think also the idea that this is going to be after the pattern of how we organize the priesthood, I think is really important to get out there. The idea of a president and counselors, just like we have for the priesthood quorums.

[Casey]

And he even seems to say that if they want officers to. To carry out what the Relief Society is going to do, they should be appointed and set apart the same way the priesthood was set apart, deacons or teachers, et cetera, to carry out duties, too. So it mirrors the structure of the priesthood quorums that already exist in the church, and in that ways is very similar.

[Lisa]

Well, and that's actually a quote from him. He said exactly those words. Right. If you need officers that you can appoint them. And if you're in the records of the Relief Society as we go forward and talk about the 19th century, you'll see that for quite a while, in many cases, it was the women who called and appointed the leadership in the Relief Society. It was over time that that became something the bishops were more involved in. But this kind of sets the precedent that women can choose or, as they said, elect their own leadership within this organization.

[Scott]

And who would set them apart? Because I'm looking at Joseph's quote again. He says, if any offices are wanted to carry out the designs of the institution, let them be appointed and set apart. Yeah. Do you know who would do that during that time before it really gets kind of put under? The bishops.

[Lisa]

Yeah. Well, in this case, we see that he then has John Taylor ordain, Elizabeth Ann Whitney and Sarah Cleveland as the counselors to Emma. We'll talk about this more in a minute. So I think there was still a sense that there's some priesthood authorization that that's required.

[Scott]

Well, this is so interesting. I would love if we could just kind of unpack for a second the implications of what the prophet is saying here, especially in terms of priesthood, in terms of authority. I want to go back to the Sarah Granger Kimball statement. So she has two. One's in 1882, and then she says a little different in 1883. And I want to kind of bounce back and forth between the two and get your thoughts, especially yours, Lisa, because I know you have some. You have a lot of thoughts on these. But Cayce, of course, jump in. So Sarah says that Joseph said that the organization of the Church of Christ was never perfect until the women were organized. He then said, quoting Sarah here, I want you, referring to Eliza Arsenau, to tell the sisters who delegated you that their offering is accepted of the Lord and will result in blessing to them. And then he said, I will organize you in the order of the priesthood after the pattern of the church. That's her 1882 recollection. In 1883, she said that he said, I will organize the women under the priesthood after the pattern of the priesthood. And I think both of those are valuable angles. Lisa, do I remember right from a previous conversation we once had that you prefer the 1882 account to the 1883 when he says, in the order of the priesthood, after the pattern of the church rather than under the priesthood and after the pattern of the priesthood. Am I remembering correctly, first of all? And if so, how do you like to parse those out?

[Lisa]

I feel like the 82 statements just a little bit clearer. But, you know, again, like, this is one of the caveats that historians will always give you. Right. This is a late reminiscence. So it's 40 years later. And that doesn't mean Sister Kimball is making it up or that we can't trust what she's saying, but the precise wording is kind of dependent on her memory. The point, I think, in either case, what's important is that we have priesthood authority that is prophetically organizing and authorizing this organization and that it's taking its place as part of the church after the pattern of the church. After the pattern of the priesthood. However, you want to say that it's the president, it's counselors, and it's a very similar organization to what they have in the priesthood quorums. And so I think there's those two key elements there, the authorizing prophetic authority and the pattern of the priesthood as we practice in the church with the structure and how the leadership is structured in the organization.

[Scott]

Yeah. So it's certainly being patterned after priesthood structure. Right. There's A first presidency with a president and two counselors. Now there's a Relief Society presidency with a president and two counselors. In the priesthood structure, you've got quorums and you've got officers. And in the Relief Society, they're going to have officers. Some interesting ones, by the way, that we get in Utah are we have officers called deaconesses, we have officers called teachers, we have officers called messengers, treasurer, work superintendents. They even have quorums for a time, like teachers Quorums, they would even call them. Right. Which was kind of the precursor to what we would call visiting teachers. But the teachers quorum of those who would go around and look out for the welfare of the sisters in the war. And so it is unambiguously patterned after the priesthood order. And so I appreciate that. What's interesting is there might be another level, too, here where Joseph is saying that they're actually being brought into the priesthood. Meaning, I don't know what it means. But here's what Eliza R. Snow understood. She later recalled. Now, this is 1873, another later reminiscence. But she said Joseph Smith believed the Relief Society to be a part of the priesthood as much as the Elders Quorum, only that it belonged exclusively to the sisters. So it's like this female quorum priesthood quorum. Eliza Arsenal will also later say that that this was considered an order, like a holy order of women, of sisters. And so we don't want to get too far off on a tangent here. He's clearly not saying that women are ordained to the priesthood in the same sense that deacons, teachers and priests are, or elders. But there is a sense in which he's definitely saying that the sisters are going to be patterned just like that, only they're going to be still under the jurisdiction of the First Presidency to some degree here, and then later in Utah under the jurisdiction of ward bishops. But any thoughts or comments on this really tight knitting of priesthood and Relief Society together?

[Lisa]

I mean, in one of the quotes that we talked about just a minute ago, Joseph said he would ordain the president and counselors to preside over the Society and let them preside, just as the presidency preside over the church. So that kind of implies that he's thinking of Relief Society like a level above, even like an individual quorum, but like parallel to the leadership of the church. There's a first presidency over the church and then there's the presidency over the Relief Society. And at least in that statement, it makes it sound like he's thinking of those Things as being parallel. The question, if Eliza is saying, and this is, of course, another retrospective statement, to say that he considered the Relief Society a part of the priesthood, what did that mean? Does that take us into the. We've been. We've talked before, and we'll talk some more about the temple and the temple priesthood in the sense of women being part of that. That priesthood. But this could take us in the direction of a quorum for women, a priesthood quorum for women. And that never pans out exactly in those terms. So it's hard to say how much Eliza's remembering exactly what Joseph said or reading in his intentions. And, of course, Joseph Smith is killed before all of these things can be worked out. So that's a kind of a. Something that's difficult to unpack all the way because there's things we'll just never. No, for sure.

[Casey]

Interesting.

[Scott]

Good thoughts. Casey, any thoughts you wanted to say about that?

[Casey]

No. I mean, again, I think what we keep bumping into over and over again is what is priesthood? And we've sort of already gone, you know, 13 rounds on that. And it seems like until we get further clarification, I don't know if it would be wise to go further. But this is another one of those that makes me go, do women have the priesthood? Was Relief Society supposed to be part of the priesthood? It sure sounds like it. But there's other statements that go the opposite direction, too.

[Lisa]

Well, and what would that have looked like in practice? You know, that's a big question. Also, it did not ever, if that was the intention, it never got put into practice in those terms. And so we don't. So we don't know. But I mean, let's be clear. Joseph Smith's statements here do establish authority and official position for women in the church and establish the Relief Society as part of the church and not as a separate thing. And we. We've talked before. I can't remember if it was in this series or when we did our episode back in October, but we've talked before about kind of the context of women's organizations in the 1840s. Relief Society, I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, was not the first women's organization in the United States. And you can even see that from the discussion at this March 17 meeting, because they talk about other societies, so it's becoming a thing for women to organize. And there are benevolent societies, sewing societies, charitable societies, that kind of thing. And most of the time, if those are connected to a church, they're called an auxiliary or something similar that sets them kind of off to the side of the official church and the official. Whatever structures there are in the church. This is different. Relief Society is part of the church. And that's important to understand, and that has been important over time that this got established as a bedrock really early on. Now, Joseph, again, going Back to this March 17, 1842 meeting, he talks about Emma. So he. He tells the sisters, okay, you can nominate a president. And I think it's Elizabeth Whitney who nominates Emma as the president. And Joseph says, basically, well, yeah, good job. That's who it's supposed to be. But he refers back to the revelation to Emma in 1830, where it says that she would be ordained to expound the scriptures and exhort the church. And I think we talked about that a little bit before, too. And Joseph says that Emma was ordained at that time. We don't have a record of that. This is the only statement I am aware of that confirms that that happened at the time in 1830. And we don't really have any record of Emma filling a public role like what that would suggest. But here Joseph says that her being elected, being the elect lady to lead the Relief Society, is the realization, the fulfillment of that revelation and that ordination that she received earlier. And then from there, John Taylor, quote, laid his hands on the head of Mrs. Cleveland and ordained her to be a counselor. And then he also laid his hands on the head of Mrs. Whitney and ordained her to be a counselor to Sister Smith.

[Scott]

So just to be clear here, Emma Smith was not set apart on that day. She just kind of already was back in 1830. And so no need to reordain her.

[Lisa]

Yep. This is the fulfillment of that ordination. We don't need to redo it, I guess is. Is what he's thinking there now. So, again, just by way of emphasizing that that this is all done through priesthood authority and that there is a declared intention that now these women will have authority to lead within their organization. Okay, maybe this would be the place to just say a little bit about the importance of these minutes, this. These Nauvoo Relief Society minutes. I. Yeah, like how great Eliza did at capturing Joseph Smith's words. But at this meeting, we talked about how he says the presidency will be the constitution, but then he goes on to say the minutes of your meeting will be precedence for you to act upon your constitution and law. So I. I think in the sense that the minutes are reflecting what the presidency is, is teaching and doing those. Those going hand in hand as being The Constitution. And so these minutes are just a really invaluable source of understanding our precedent, the history, what happened and so forth. And Eliza R. Snow, as the secretary of the Nauvoo Relief Society, she takes most of the minutes, and she inscribes them in this big Nauvoo Relief Society minute book that we still have. I think it's on display at the Church History Museum now.

[Casey]

But the minute book, it is. Yeah, I saw it there a couple weeks ago.

[Lisa]

Yeah. Yeah, I knew it was there. I just couldn't remember if that exhibit was still up. But. But she keeps custody of these minutes, and she's the one who brings them across the plains to Utah. And so she remembers and recognizes the importance of this charge from Joseph Smith. This is your constitution. These minutes are really important. And so she's the one who holds onto them and preserves them. And as we go along, we'll talk a little bit more about how that played out.

[Casey]

And we should note that the minutes are important, too, because they just established this precedent of women's authority and organization in the church. Although we have to note that the Nauvoo Relief Society was not as all inclusive as Relief Society is today. Not every woman was part of it. And second, we've said this before, but it largely goes dormant during the evacuation of Nauvoo and the trek west, and stays dormant for about two decades after that's over. Now, we've mentioned this before. The established narrative is that Brigham Young kind of put the kibosh on Relief Society in the wake of Joseph Smith's death. And he makes some harsh statements, by the way, some of which are found in the first 50 years of relief Society, which is in your gospel library, for example. He says, relief Societies are going to relieve us of our best men, and if you see women huddled, veto the concern. But it's not entirely clear how much his statements were definitive in disbanding the Relief Society versus how much. Just the disruption of evacuating Nauvoo and getting across the plains and just all the demands of getting settled in the inner mountain west just sort of overtook all considerations. I don't think most church organizations were very well organized during this time period, so it's probably a little bit of both. It seems like Brigham Young wasn't a huge fan of the Relief Society, but also we switch to crisis mode. We just switch into survival mode, where it's about families and getting them across the plains. And then once we get settled here, we start to set up things. Although we should mention that at certain places, like winter quarters, women continued to exercise spiritual gifts. They would pray, they would sing, they would encourage and administer to each other, but it wasn't exactly Relief Society. But some of that could reflect the precedent that was set in Nauvoo. And we should also note that individually and not from the top down, but from the bottom up, there were some efforts to provide assistance to indigenous people by sewing, clothing, and quilts and other things. And these were known as Indian Relief societies. So there's efforts here and there. I don't think there was an institutional push during those 20 years, but women who wanted to organize, who wanted especially to assist the Native Americans are organizing, and they did the title Relief Society in a lot of instances, I should

[Lisa]

add, I think there was a little bit of a push in the 1850s to kind of get ward relief societies going, like maybe in Salt Lake. But it was to the extent that that happened, and these Indian Relief societies were part of that. I mean, it's just kind of sporadic and localized to the extent that that's happening. Then the Utah War and the evacuation, when they basically pick up and move south because the army is coming in, that seems to have disrupted whatever Relief Society activities were going on, really, for most of the next decade. So it's there. It's never completely forgotten, but it's not quite on a firm footing yet, as far as the whole church goes.

[Scott]

And there were things like the Utah War that were putting things, again, in a little unstable condition for such ecclesiastical concerns to really take, you know, top priority. But things do settle down in the 1860s. So in late 1867, Brigham Young starts talking about reestablishing relief societies throughout the church now systematically. And shortly thereafter, he even commissions Eliza R. Snow to lead the effort. He says to bishops, he said, quote, now, bishops, you have smart women for wives. Many of you. Except the puzzle. I know you meant that as a compliment, but that didn't come across like a compliment.

[Casey]

You're re. You're reading into his.

[Scott]

Did I read into that? I'm sorry.

[Lisa]

Yeah. Okay. Anyway, he didn't say who he had in mind in one direction or the other. Yeah, we'll just go with it.

[Scott]

Okay. Okay, here we go.

[Casey]

So we pointed out when he said

[Scott]

that, but, yeah, yeah, bishops, you have smart women for wives. Many of you let them organize female relief societies in the various wards. He said, we have many talented women among us, and we wish their help in this matter. Some may think this is a trifling thing, but it is not. And you will find that the sisters will be the mainspring of the movement. Close quote. So notice that Brigham Young is speaking to bishops specifically of their wives. Now, this is not universal, but often the bishop's wife would be called as the Relief Society president. Today, we would not do that. Right. If the man's the bishop, we are not going to call his wife to that kind of a duty. But that's how it was. Yeah. Now, whatever else Brigham Young said about women at this point, it's clear that he has grown to recognize the importance and the potential of drawing on women's talents, their energies, their gifts in building up the kingdom of God. No doubt he was influenced by his own house full of females that he lived in. He has upwards of 20 wives that are living with him, dozens of daughters, actually. They far outnumber the number of his sons who are, who are now growing up. His daughters are becoming adults. So certainly that that plays into this whole thing as well. Now, Eliza R. Snow, she said this. She said, quote, as I had been intimately associated with and had officiated as secretary for the first Relief Society organization, President Young commissioned me to assist the bishops in organizing branches of the society in their respective wards. For at that time, the bishops had not acquainted themselves with the movement and did not know how to proceed. Isn't that such a fun little moment to think about all these bishops who don't know what the Relief Society is, how it's supposed to work? And Eliza R. Snow, tasked by the prophet to come and kind of teach and to set this up in the wards? She continues, quote, to me, it was quite a mission, and I took much pleasure in its performance. I felt quite honored and much at home in my associations with the bishops, and they appreciated my assistance, close quote. So I love that we should just

[Lisa]

make a small point here to think about the contrast between Nauvoo now and Salt Lake City 25 years later. Because in Nauvoo, we had, what, four wards, but now we're in Utah, and Salt Lake City itself has over 20 wards. And every town, every settlement has at least one ward. And so when she says the bishops were not acquainted with the movement, well, there weren't really any bishops originally, and, you know, just. Just a couple, as opposed to now we have dozens of bishops and dozens of wards. And so you really are looking at a different organ context for relief Society in 1867-68 than a quarter of a century previously. And so that's one context for why Brigham Young would launch this movement at this time. But there are some others that are worth thinking about. 1867-68, the railroad is approaching and it's going to come together in Utah in 1869. So they can see that this is inexorably moving towards them. And they know that this is going to fundamentally change their relationship with the outside world, so to speak. So they're worried about maintaining boundaries and fortifying the community against new influences and temptations. And one response to these concerns is to start developing new institutions. And from the late 1860s, you know, for the next couple of decades is going to be a real era of organization and institution building within the church.

[Scott]

Are there other institutions besides the Relief Society that are established during this time?

[Lisa]

So less than a week before Brigham Young issues this call to re establish Relief Society, he has reinstituted the School of the Prophets. And again, you know, that goes clear back to Kirtland. That would have been a very small group. If you've been to, to the Whitney store, you see the room they met in, it was not very big. Now, again, we're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of men who have priesthood office and who are part of these quorums, part of the church. And so the, the school he re institutes, the School of the Prophets in this context. And it's also meant to, like, bring the men together, channel their energies, fortify boundaries and so forth.

[Scott]

They.

[Lisa]

And so both the Relief Society and the School of the Prophets are going to promote egalitarian economics. They're going to promote home industry. There's a lot of theological talk going on. You know, we're spiritually fortifying ourselves. We're also preaching about the importance of unity among the saints. And so the School of the Prophets and the Relief Society are going to do kind of be kind of hand in hand on that. In fact, the president of the Fillmore Stake, a man named Thomas Collister, he sees this parallel relationship. And this is a great quote for capturing how they were thinking about it at the time. He says, this Society, the Relief Society, reminds me of the School of the Prophets. And we might almost call you a school of the prophetesses. So that's great. And both of both of these organizations are reflecting precedents that were set decades earlier and founded by the prophetic authority of Joseph Smith. But now we're going to reinvigorate, we're going to replant those in this new context of the church in Utah. And then just at a broader cultural level, if we think about context here in the mid 19th century, there's this developing concept of what was called separate spheres, which was the idea that men have their sphere, largely the public sphere, and women have their sphere, largely the private sphere, but the idea that there are responsibility and gifts and opportunities that men and women, respectively, have and that can be administered within those separate spheres. So Relief Society is kind of picking up on that idea. And as this decade or two of organization goes forth, you'll see the development of a very extensive and robust women's sphere within the church, with Relief Society at the core of that.

[Casey]

One other thing that occurs to me is going back to the railroad coming to Utah. It was pretty hard to get to Utah before the railroad came, and it barred a lot of people that didn't have money or were healthy enough to walk across the plains. And I think there's a few statements from Brigham Young surrounding the re establishment of Relief Society that have to do with this flood of immigrants that are going to come into the territory, that in the 1850s, there's more latter Day Saints in Britain than there are in the United States, by some estimates. And all of a sudden, everybody's going to come and we're going to have a sort of refugee crisis. And Relief Society deals with that, which to me is a neat parallel that in the last decade, Relief Society also was asked to take on the international refugee crisis, which we've been experiencing these last few years.

[Lisa]

I'm not sure I would agree that's how they're thinking about it. I don't think it's so much refugees coming in as it is outsiders with their sinister motives and worldly influences that they're trying to fortify the community against,

[Casey]

like a retrenchment effort or something like that.

[Lisa]

Yeah. Which we're going to talk about here in a minute. Yeah. So I. I've not seen in the sources anything where they talk about it in terms of, like, all these people are going to flee here that we're going to have to take care of. It's more all these people are going to come in, and we need to keep ourselves separate from them because they're going to seduce our daughters and corrupt the morals of our community, basically.

[Casey]

There is one statement where Brigham Young says, give them your influence, speaking of the new Relief Societies, guide and direct them wisely and well, and they will find rooms for the poor and obtain means for supporting them 10 times quicker than even the bishop could.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Casey]

Which might suggest that they're worried about, you know, a flood of people with fewer resources coming into the territory.

[Lisa]

I think he's probably referring more to the poor within the community.

[Casey]

Just the poor in general.

[Lisa]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Casey]

Well, let's talk about what that actually looked like then and who the key figure is. Who is certainly Eliza R. Snow. So Eliza R. Snow is asked to travel around the territory organizing local units, local relief societies, and by her own account, it's a challenge for her. It's more than just an administrative calling. She's also commissioned to teach and lead in ways that she said were not entirely comfortable for her. For instance, she said this. She said, not long after the reorganization of the Relief Society, President Young told me he was going to give me another mission. Without the least intimation of what the mission consisted, I replied, I shall endeavor to fulfill it. He said, I want you to instruct the sisters. Although this is what she says, although my heart went pit a pat for the time being, I did not and could not then form an adequate estimate of the magnitude of the work before me. So she's overwhelmed. But like we mentioned, what's the instrument she's going to use? She's going to use the minutes from the Nauvoo Relief Society. She carries them around with her and uses them to set the pattern to instruct other Relief Society leaders about how it should work. And going back to that statement you mentioned earlier, that the minutes should be the Constitution. So she'll read Joseph Smith's instructions, the Relief Society to teach women about their divine mission potential, and then she'll also use the minutes as a model to instruct local secretaries on how to perform, how to carry out, how to write their own minutes. And this is a lifelong work for her. She's engaged in it until 1887. This is a quote from the first 50 years, that wonderful resource that has the minutes they wrote by carriage and train. Snow traveled to counties, stakes, wards, and branches in populated and remote areas, sometimes speaking three times a day. She kept up a vigorous schedule until well into her senior years and eventually visited nearly every Latter Day Saint settlement of the time. Through these visits, she provided local church members with a vital sense of connection to central Church leadership, and she returned to Salt Lake City headquarters with a greater understanding of issues facing the members. Her written addresses published in newspapers, reached even farther than her physical presence. So this is those 1200 discourses we're talking about. I guess if you're talking three times a day and you do this for a large part of your life, 1200 still seems like a lot. But she's a dynamo. She is out making this happen. And I think it's fair to say that she's kind of the engine that recreates Relief Society, that really starts it going. And we should mention, too, that local Relief Society leaders were appointed, and sometimes they were called directly by Eliza R. Snow, but often this was also done in consultation with the local bishops and the local sisters in the area, too. Is that correct?

[Lisa]

Yeah. And let's just point out Eliza wasn't a young woman at this point. She's in her 60s and she. So the last 20 years of her life are the busiest in terms of this schedule, in this load that she carries. And that's pretty amazing, especially when you think about the conditions that all that traveling took place under and, you know, just like what the material realities of it were.

[Scott]

And one thing I want to just highlight here that I think is really fascinating is as Eliza is going out and doing this work, as she articulates what the Relief Society is, you can see clearly how she understood the relationship between Relief Society and priesthood and church. For instance, here's just a couple statements she made. She said, quote, although the name Relief Society may be of modern date, the institution is of ancient origin. She says, we were told by our martyred prophet that the same organization existed in the church anciently, allusions to which are made in some of the epistles recorded in the New Testament. Making use of the title elect lady. Here's another one. The Relief Society is an organization that cannot exist without the priesthood from the fact that it derives all its authority and influence from that source. I feel like that one needs a little clarification. I think she means priesthood here in the sense of the highest ecclesiastical leaders of the church, meaning the Relief Society has no legitimacy in the Church without being sanctioned by the first presidency. Do you guys read that differently than that?

[Lisa]

No, I think you're right. And then that's going to carry over to the local level with stake presidents and bishops, too.

[Scott]

Yeah. Yes, she'll say, through the authority which President Young has conferred upon the ward bishops. I'm quoting her directly here. They, the bishops now stand in the same relation with the societies which have been and are now about to be organized in the wards and settlements, as President Joseph Smith did with the Relief Society in Nauvoo. No society can overstep the council of its bishop. His word is law, to which all its doings are amenable. Which is interesting because elsewhere Eliza will say that the Relief Society should be self governing and questions and issues should be taken to Relief Society leaders before going to the bishop. But I guess she still includes the bishop there as well. So. But we do see this interesting tension of, like, how autonomous is the Relief Society versus how much do they need to check everything with the bishop? And so we're kind of watching that play out here in real time a little bit. Another thing that I think is key to this is she said, what is the object of the female Relief Society? I would reply, to do good, to bring into requisition every capacity we possess for doing good, not only in relieving the poor, but in saving souls. And I think that's going to bleed over into the work that they do in the temple as well, which, you know, they're building one right at this time in St. George. They've got the use of the endowment house in Salt Lake. But so I don't know. That's just a couple snapshots of, like, how she's talking about the Relief Society, her actual words. We can see how she at least is thinking of. And I think at this time, everyone would agree she is the Church's expert on what is the Relief Society. And she's there training the bishops on its relationship to the ward and to the bishops themselves. And so really fascinating to watch how this played out.

[Lisa]

Yeah. I love this last statement that she makes. It's an article that she wrote for the Deseret News as the Relief Society movement was getting started. And she says, if any of the daughters and mothers in Israel are feeling in the least circumscribed in their present spheres, they will now find ample scope for every power and capability for doing good with which they are most liberally endowed. The idea that this is opening up opportunities, this is expanding the sphere of usefulness for women. It echoes one of Emma Smith's teachings to Nauvoo Relief Society that she says the Relief Society puts women in a position to exercise every virtue and give scope to the benevolent feelings of the female heart. However quaint this looks to us now at the time it's experienced as progress, as expansion is something expansive.

[Scott]

Yeah, Yep.

[Lisa]

Expansive. Yep, yep. Now, we've been talking about Relief Society, which is the bedrock and is really important, but we should put this in the context of other women led organizations that are established during this period of the late 1860s to about 1870 and even into the 1870s. And these are all established under the umbrella of Women's Leadership through the Relief Society. So in the winter of 1869-1870, Brigham Young commissions Mary Isabella Horne to start what becomes known as the Ladies Cooperative Retrenchment association. And, guys, we could talk about that for a whole episode. It's super interesting. But the idea. They called it table retrenchment. The idea was to cut back on all these fancy, extravagant meals that women are supposedly preparing and using up their family's resources and taking their time doing frivolous things that they could be better spent, you know, going to meeting and reading the scriptures and so forth. But that's part of this idea of fortifying.

[Scott]

So there was a whole organization that was created to say, scale back your elaborate dinner making.

[Casey]

Yes, that must have been a bigger problem back then than it is today. I guess they had fewer resources.

[Lisa]

Well, like I say, we could talk about this for a long time, because it's super interesting. It comes out of Brigham Young traveling south. You know, some people will be aware that. That most every year, he would have this procession to the south as he went to St. George for the winter. And so there would be this big entourage. They would come through, you know, all the settlements in Utah, same, almost the same path that we now drive down to go to St. George, you know, whatever. And everywhere they went, of course, the community would roll out the red carpet and would. They would make these big, fancy meals and so forth. And so that's what Brigham Young's seeing. And I don't know if he thinks that's going on all the time or what, but also there. There's some fun statements from Brigham Young where he's like, this is an exact quote, but he's like, people just feed me all this heavy food, and I would be perfectly happy with some bread and milk. So I wish people would quit laying it on so thick. So. Because, you know, he got pretty heavy in his. In his older years. And so there's, like, a lot of things going on, but they're trying to, again, fortify the boundaries and save the resources of the community. And if you think about how the economy of the time worked on a large scale and also like the household economy, what are the things that women have control over? Where are the places that women exercise their oversight in the economy? It's food, it's clothing. It's these kinds of domestic resources. And so it's just part of this idea of, hey, let's rein in and make sure we're not just giving our resources to outsiders. But also, when you read some of the editorials, when the retrenchment association first get started, there's also a concern about inequality within the community, because by the late 1860s, there's starting to be some people who are doing really well, and there's still a lot of people who are not. And so part of the concern is that if you people with all your resources are putting on these fancy meals and so forth, then the people who don't have as much are not going to feel like they're as good as you are. And there's going to be a difficulty with people in the community interacting on an equal basis. So it's part of the Zion ideal that they really take seriously, this idea of being one heart and one mind and no poor among them. And if you're not equal in temporal things, you can't be equal in spiritual things. And so that's the. That's the idea behind it. And again, we could talk so much more about it. It's a super interesting movement, and in one form or another, it lasts until almost the 20, the turn of the 20th century. But what happens? So the. This retrenchment association under Sister Horn is established in Salt Lake City, but there never really become branches of retrenchment association in the Wards the way that there are relief societies. So what you could say among the adult women is that retrenchment becomes a theme, a teaching, a value, a priority that's communicated through the Relief Society. But the organization itself is always just kind of centered in Salt Lake City. And for a while, this is where, like the Ward Relief Society presidents would come and meet together before there's a general board of the Relief Society or whatever. So it's kind of an organizational thing. I'm slaughtering it. I'm not doing it justice. It's such an interesting story. But out of this movement, I'm just going to say, like, there's a really interesting story here that we're not going to get into, but I published an article about it in the Journal of Mormon History last year. So go look it up. It's also a carry on in our book on the history of the Young Women Organization. So out of this same retrenchment movement, Brigham Young comes home and apparently looks around again at this house full of females, all his wives and daughters, and wants to get the younger women involved in this movement to retrench. And so I think many people are familiar with this iconic story of him calling his wives and daughters into the Lion House parlor and giving them this charge to retrench. And this is the origins of Are you ready? The Young Ladies Department of the Ladies Cooperative Retrenchment Association.

[Casey]

That doesn't quite roll off the tongue, does it?

[Lisa]

Doesn't quite roll off the tongue of the.

[Scott]

Of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[Casey]

And that's like a whole talk that's

[Lisa]

formally organized in May of 1827 or of 1870. Sorry, May of 1870. Young Ladies Department is formally organized now.

[Scott]

So wait, what's. So what's what. How are they using the word retrenchment? They keep saying retrenchment retreat. Seems to me to be a couple things.

[Lisa]

So defensive posture isn't a word we use so much anymore. The origins of it are military. You fall back and you dig fortifications, and that's your retrenchment.

[Casey]

But it's defensive in nature.

[Lisa]

Yep, defensive. But it's also a common term in the 19th century for cutting back, reducing expense. So, you know, if we're cutting the government expenses, the government is retrenching. You'll see it in that. In that context sometimes. So it's a term that was familiar to them that we're less familiar with now. But also this idea of Young Ladies Department tells us a lot about how they think about women generationally, that young ladies, which is an age group that's not super well defined at this point, and even just the concept of girlhood is coming into being as a life stage for young women. And so they are the department of the Ladies Association. So young women are seen as a dependent subdivision of the adult women's sphere, which means that the expectation is that they're going to be taught and mentored by their mothers, by adult women. And this is how they learn to be a woman is from other women on an intergenerational basis. And so the. Initially, the organization reflects that relationship. Now by 1877, it has been renamed the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement Association. The ylmia that rolls off the tongue a little bit better. It's parallel to the Young Men's mutual improvement association YMMIA, which was published or which was organized in 1875. And so we'll talk more here in a minute about the relationship of those two organizations. But one of the things that's happening, and again, we could multiply quotes from a of lot. Eliza R. Snow on this. According to her, the parents came to Zion thinking we're in Zion and, and our kids are going to grow up in Zion and everything's going to be great. And now that that generation of kids born as they get to Utah is starting to come of age, they're going, oh, maybe we needed to teach them. Maybe we needed to provide some kind of, you know, instruction and mentoring. For them. And maybe they're not just going to automatically be these celestial beings without some kind of help. And so that's the impetus behind a lot of these organizations. We didn't. I mean, the Sunday school is not specifically a women's organization. It's. It's being organized during the same time the young ladies, the young men, and so forth. And then in 1878, you get the organization of the primary, or the primary association, as they called it. So those official organizations. But then there's other initiatives that are also started under the umbrella of Relief Society during this era. So grain storage. Emmeline Wells is specifically called to head up the grain storage movement, where they're going to store grain against a time of need. And Brigham Young said he tried to get the men to do it and they wouldn't do it. So he's asking the women to do it because he knew that they would do it. And they did their silk production, which was again, an effort to come up with a home industry where they're not sending their money back east to buy silk and other fabrics, but they can produce it locally. Then also medical education and health care. We'll talk a little bit more about some of these. But the point is that all of these activities and more are under the umbrella of the Relief Society at this time. Eliza R. Snow is the acknowledged leader. I think you can find it in the discourses. But we have an example where she goes. I think it's to Kanab and the Relief Society sisters there greet her by calling her the presidentess of the female portion of the human race. So they're acknowledging Eliza as she is the elect lady. She is the leader of the women. And here's how I love this description. Susie Young Gates later gives this description in her history of the Ylmia, but she said this captures the dynamic in the 1860s, 70s, 80s. For 20 years, the organizing and visiting of these associations was done by representatives of the three women's organizations traveling together in company, perhaps with some local or stake organization official. A stake officer in one town whose husband or son owned a carriage or spring wagon might drive the team herself or press into service her boy or a neighbor's son. And around that stake the Salt Lake party would go, sending word ahead by the prized local telegraph. When in after years, regular conferences began to be called, it became quite usual to devote the Friday before the regular stake conference to the holding of a conference of the three women's societies. The morning meetings would probably be devoted to the primary association. The afternoon to the Relief Society and the evening session to the young ladies meeting. It is an interesting fact that in those days, the audiences at all of these meetings would be very much the same. The speakers were generally the same, and the topics were not very dissimilar. Thus was engendered a delightful unanimity and harmony in the ranks of these three sister organizations.

[Casey]

Oh, it's kind of interesting that she's saying that the audience was the same, the messages were the same, and the speakers were the same. And that's like a strength in her mind.

[Scott]

Yeah. That they're all united.

[Casey]

Yeah, they're all doing the same thing. Where we would say variety is the spice of life, but.

[Lisa]

Well, I mean, I don't know, based on our meetings, would we say that?

[Casey]

I don't know.

[Lisa]

Just kidding.

[Casey]

Yeah, I guess.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Casey]

We might have more entertainment options than they did, but. Okay, okay, okay.

[Lisa]

So before and during meetings.

[Casey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So let's take a look at what this looks like on the ground. So we should note that the Church History department has been doing some projects to look at local Relief Society minute books, which there are a lot of, as I understand, from this time period, from the 19th century. And we're starting to get a better picture. But there's still some big questions. One thing that's clear is that Relief Societies were fundamentally local. And that is a major difference in how we do things today versus back then. There's not a handbook or manuals or any centralized instruction other than circular letters that Eliza Arsenow would send out. And each Relief Society met according to their own needs and priorities. They have a fair degree of autonomy, and they would meet regularly. We're talking every other week at least. I should point out, too, that most of our listeners probably grew up in that three hour block where, you know, sacrament meeting, Sunday School, and Relief Society were all done on Sunday. But that's relatively recent. I think it was the late 1970s. Before that, you. Yeah, you'd meet. You'd meet for sacrament meeting, and then you'd come back for Relief Society or Sunday School. And then some of these organizations would meet during the week, too. That's kind of the model they're functioning under here. So they'd meet, they'd sing, they'd pray, they'd share testimony, they'd read from the Women's Exponent, which was the women's periodical in the church. And again, they have some autonomy. So they're also doing a lot of service projects. They're sewing, they're making quilts. And blankets and clothing for people in need. And this goes back to the origins of Relief Society. Right. Where at least the initial idea comes from. Let's put together a sewing society. Let's see what we can do.

[Scott]

And to help with the temple.

[Casey]

Yeah. And another thing that was part of Relief Society from the beginning was visiting and teaching. Visiting, teaching. As early as Nauvoo, there were visiting committees assigned to investigate the needs and report back. For example, in the Salt Lake 15th Ward, Sarah Kimball, you'll recall her from earlier, was the president, and she appointed a. This is an interesting word, a teacher's quorum of visiting teachers. This idea of visiting was not unique. But did they use quorum a lot? Was quorum just a word you used to describe an organization and not quite as specialized?

[Lisa]

I think Sarah Kimball's unique and notable for using this term, and I think she knows exactly what she's doing by

[Casey]

using that term, by calling him the teacher's quorum.

[Lisa]

Well, and we should point out that teacher, in church usage, did not take on the meaning that we have now of someone who stands up and give a lesson that doesn't really start being used until into the 20th century. And if you go back and look at, say, Section 20 in the doctrine and Covenants. Right. Teacher is a fundamental office in the Aaronic priesthood. And so the teachers in the Relief Society were parallel to the teachers in the Aaronic priesthood as laid out in. In section 20. They're the ones who visit the homes that the male teachers are supposed to head off contention and try to resolve difficulties and so forth. And the female teachers are there to visit, to check on the welfare, to get charitable donations and so forth. So it. It is explicitly a parallel with the teacher's quorum.

[Casey]

Interesting.

[Lisa]

As it was understood at the time in the Aaronic priesthood.

[Casey]

Yeah. Because this sounds a lot like the Description In Section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants of what a teacher is supposed to do. And we should note, too, that, yeah, the female teachers that we're talking about here would solicit donations from women, which could include everything from a length of cloth to a few pounds of flour. And then they'd take them back to Relief Society leadership and they'd redistribute those to people that were in need. And this goes on well into the 20th century. Relief society meetings and Relief Society conferences were times of spiritual expression. They would sing, they'd bear testimony, like we mentioned in our last few episodes, they could speak in tongues and so forth. We should also note, too, that membership in These Relief Societies was voluntary. Not everybody was part of them. And you chose to join. And at some point, it was expected the members would pay a small amount of dues each year to help support the organization. And one last thing is that by the turn of the century, Relief Society was kind of identified as an old woman thing that older women engaged in, and they shift. And in the 20th century, they're going to make a. A big effort to try and be more progressive so that they attract younger women. But we'll talk a little bit more about that in the next episode.

[Scott]

Okay, hold on. So I'm still kind of stuck back on Sarah Kimball deliberately calling her group of teachers a teacher's quorum. You said, Lisa, that she knew what she was doing. Is she making a statement? Is she trying to say we are the parallel organization to the priesthood and maybe we're forgetting that or something like that? Like, what do you think she's. What statement is she making?

[Lisa]

My friend Janelle Higbee is the expert on Sarah Kimball, so I'd be interested to see how she would answer that. My reading is that, yes, this is her reflecting that idea. Remember, she's the one who says Relief Society is organized in the order of the priesthood, after the pattern of the church or however we represent that. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't think she's. She's not a radical subversive or anything, but I think she recognizes that, you know, as she understands that that's what the precedent was.

[Scott]

Yeah, I was there in the beginning, guys. Let's not forget what. Yeah, Relief Society actually is something like that, maybe.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Fascinating. Fascinating. Okay. Okay. So a little bit of further development that might be interesting is that in the 1870, late 1870s, like 77 and 78, we start getting Women's Stake presidencies, meaning Stake Relief Society presidencies, Stake Young Ladies Presidencies, and Stake Primary association presidencies. Those are now established. Brigham Young, who's going to die in 1877, had begun engaging in large organizational efforts to just in the last year of his life to set stakes bishoprics, quorums, etc. In order is how he said it. And so it seems likely that his influence here is to help further development before he dies. He wants to further develop the women's organizations here. He designated Jane Richards as the Ogden Stake Relief Society President In July of 1877, formally takes place in October, right after he dies. Brigham Young also said that the Relief Society should start holding quarterly conferences, like the Stakes generally, and issuing reports. Young Ladies Mutual Improvement association also establishes the stake level organization. At this point, Primary is going to be organized the same year as something that exists and has stake level leadership then from the beginning, based on the pattern of the Young Women and the Relief Society now. So whatever we want to say about Brigham Young early on, kiboshing Relief Society in Nauvoo, if that's what happened or not, and some of the statements he made about women, I think it's fair to say that by the end of his life here, he is doing everything he can to elevate women's position in the church. And I think that needs to be said right alongside some of the snarky and uncomfortable comments that he sometimes made about women earlier on, is that fair to say? Because he's doing great things here.

[Lisa]

He's certainly recognizing the need of and potential of women.

[Scott]

Yeah, yeah. 1880, we get Central boards and general presidencies at the church level that are established for each organization. Like a Relief Society board. Relief Society Presidency, Young Ladies Presidency and board and primary presidency and board for the church level. Right. Not just stake level. Emmeline Wells says later that she had approached President John Taylor, Brigham Young's successor here, about creating these, though there's no contemporary evidence that this was the case. But we do know that President Taylor continues Brigham Young's efforts to get the church better organized or put in order. El Mina Sheppard Taylor was appointed first general president of the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement association. And Louis Felt was appointed president of the primary. So all this is happening in 1880 time period. And again as we just step back, I think what we can see is these moves at the end of President Young's ministry and at the beginning of President Taylor's further entrench women's organizations into the institutional structure of the church. In that Same year of 1880, Eliza R. Snow is made officially the Relief Society president of the church. Brigham Young hadn't actually set her apart. He called her, but she was never set apart. She never called counselors. But that's now made like official official in 1880. And she continued to be acknowledged as the leader of all women's work in the church until her death seven years later in 1887. In fact, the Young Ladies and primary leadership don't fully function on their own until after Eliza R. Snow's death because she was the de facto in charge of it all person, which is so interesting. These additions now with young women and Primary, in addition to Relief Society are putting the organizations on track to become their own entities and they set their own trajectories as opposed to remaining under Relief Society oversight further on. So some really interesting and really important things happening in the late 1870s, 1880s, which we now are the full beneficiaries of today. But that's when I was all going down.

[Lisa]

Yeah. And again, just to stress that last point you made, Scott, up to this time and even after this time, as that quote I read illustrates, these three organizations are working really closely together. It's almost like Relief Society is the mother and YL and Primary are the daughters. Right. They're all working together. But now that these separate presidencies have been established, it starts to distinguish those organizations as their own thing. And so that's the trajectory that it's going to take. It's not quite there yet, but this move sets the ground for that to take place.

[Scott]

And maybe it's important to kind of bring it back to kind of the theme of this series of women in priesthood, that just as the Relief Society was patterned after the priesthood with the presidency and officers, we now see that same thing happening with young Women's organization. We're going to have a president with counselors. We're going to call officers in the young women's. Same thing with primary president, counselors, officers. And so what's established with the Relief Society now gets kind of copied and pasted as these auxiliaries of the priesthood, or auxiliaries to the priesthood. Patterned after the priesthood. So it's kind of proliferating now, that same kind of copy print pattern, if we could say it that way.

[Lisa]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to think about it. And the term auxiliary itself, which maybe we'll talk about a little bit more in the next episode, but it starts to be used in this era, 1880s or so, you start seeing them talk about these organizations as auxiliaries. So.

[Scott]

To the priesthood, right? To the priesthood, yeah.

[Lisa]

Well, yeah, let's look at that for next time. I'll pull up some actual bookmark that I think John Taylor is one I'm thinking of. Okay, so one other thing that we want to just kind of hit on here quickly. I think people, I think this story has become more generally known in recent years because of all the great work that's been done with first 50 years and some great biographies and so forth. But Relief society in the second half of the 19th century becomes the base for Latter Day Saint women to step into the public sphere and to start to be activists on their own behalf and on behalf of women generally. One of the Ironies is the role that polygamy plays in this, because, you know, of course, virtually all of these leading sisters are polygamous wives. And this is the point where the anti polygamy campaign is starting to really take off and intensify. And much of the vitriol is directed at Mormon women. They're dupes, they're slaves. They don't know what's good for them. You know, there's just a lot of disapprobation, as they would have said, aimed at Latter Day Saint women because of their practice of polygamy. But then it's also standing up to defend that, that moves them into the public sphere. So polygamy is actually kind of an enabling factor for women's activities, women's voices, women's status at the time. So, for example, in 1870, as pretty strident anti polygamy legislation is under consideration, Latter Day Saint women in Salt Lake City mobilize and hold what's called a great indignation meeting. This is in January of 1870, and I love that title. But indignation meetings were a well established tradition in American political culture. If something's happening you don't like, you get together, you hold a meeting and you are indignant and you express your indignation. It was held in the old tabernacle and there were several thousand women there. And primarily the audience was other women. The men that they allowed in were journalists. And so there are reports of this meeting that gets sent to the newspapers back east. And they're very impressed. They're kind of blown away by how articulate and confident and forceful these, you know, supposedly stupid Mormon women were. And there's a whole lot about this in the first 50 years. So we're just scratching the surface here. But this event then is replicated throughout the territory. There are indignation meetings throughout the territory. And it's shortly after this, just the next month, that the Utah state legislature grants the vote to women. Utah women become the second in the country to get the right to vote. Wyoming actually passed women's suffrage first, but then Utah holds the first election. So Utah women become the first women to vote under an equal suffrage law in the United States. This whole irony of polygamy as an enabling factor goes as far as suffrage for women in Utah, and then as they become part of the suffrage movement, and it's hand in hand again with defending themselves in the anti polygamy crusades. Emmeline Wells and Zina Young Card, who's one of Brigham Young's daughters, they go back east to Washington, D.C. in 1879, where they participate in national suffrage meetings, they testify before Congress, they meet with the President of the United States and his wife, trying to get some support and understanding for Latter Day Saint women and for what all these laws would mean for them. But when they show up at this national suffrage convention, it's a kind of a dilemma because these national women's leaders at this time, they don't like Mormons, they don't like polygamy, they're like, they don't want anything to do with this,

[Scott]

but because they saw polygamy as like oppressive practice or something like that to women.

[Lisa]

Yeah, I mean, polygamy was just beyond the pale. And it was just something that had long been denounced and condemned in, in Christian, you know, in Christianity. And man, there's a really interesting history there, and I won't get started, but yes, okay, they're. They're the dupes of polygamy, but they're also flesh and blood voters here in person who can demonstrate to the country that women can vote responsibly and without becoming unwomanly, which they were really worried about at the time and so forth. And so it becomes this a little bit of a dilemma for the national suffrage leaders. What do we do with these women? And there's kind of a. There's a break in the suffrage movement that centers around Lucy Stone and then Susan B. Anthony. And Susan B. Anthony, who's the more radical of the women's leaders, is like, okay, I don't like polygamy, but we need all the support we can get. So she welcomes these women, they become friends. And then over the next two decades, Latter Day Saint women become very involved in suffrage in women's organizations, the national and International Council of Women. And they're just, you know, part of this big women's movement. This is what's been called first wave feminism in the United States. And Latter Day Saint women are right there in the forefront of it because of their status as voters. But it also becomes a really important way for them to build bridges with outsiders at a time when the opposition to the church is probably more intense than it had ever been because of the anti polygamy legislation and so forth. And so the women are quietly building bridges even in the midst of all of this controversy. Of course, it catches up with them in 1887 with the Edmonds Tucker act, which disenfranchises women in Utah. And so after the manifesto in 1890, when it becomes clear that Utah is finally going to achieve statehood. Latter Day Saint women mobilize again to make sure that they get the vote in the Utah state constitution, and that takes effect in 1896. And again, super interesting story. Don't have time for it today. But the point being that Relief Society women's organizations are all imbricated with these larger contexts and women's movements that are going on at the time.

[Casey]

Yeah, I remember reading once where Leonard Arrington, that late great church historian, said that if Emmeline Wells wasn't A, a Latter Day Saint and B, a polygamous wife, she might have been known alongside Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, as one of the pioneers of women's suffrage. But that's a story that's underappreciated that man. We need, like, 30 more episodes.

[Lisa]

Well, and that position for Emmaline is partly because of what you're going to talk about, Casey, with the Woman's Exponent, her position as the editor of that.

[Casey]

Let me dive into that. Some of the most interesting statements from women during this time period come from the Women's Exponent, which is a newspaper that's founded in 1872 as a voice for Latter Day Saint women. And the original editor is a woman named Lula Green richards. But by 1877, Emmeline Wells has taken over leadership, ownership, and as the editor, and it becomes her primary source of income, too, especially after her husband. Her husband is Daniel H. Wells. His finances collapsed in the 1880s, and she essentially has to support herself. So she's using this newspaper to emphasize suffrage and equal rights for women. She engages in exchanges with national women's publications so that Latter Day Saint women can become part of the larger conversation about women's status. And she also fills an important role within the community by creating a public female space where women can share their experiences and ideas. And even though the Women's Exponent was not officially published by the Relief Society, it sort of becomes more or less the official organ of the Relief Society. She publishes reports from wards and stakes, circular letters, discourses, instructions from Relief Society leaders to words and stakes. And it becomes this important point of exchange between women within the church. So can't underestimate Emmeline Wells. She's another huge figure here. And she also eventually becomes president of the Relief Society, General president. But that's end of the 20th century.

[Lisa]

And let's just emphasize that the title of the paper, and I know you know this, Casey, but just because it isn't always clear from hearing it spoken, the title is Woman's Exponent, woman, singular. And that reflects their idea that woman is this unified group of people with unified interests and a cause that they're going after. So it's the woman we're expounding on the rights and privileges of woman. And that was how they thought about it back then. It's just a small point, but drives me nuts when people write it in the plural, because that's not accurate.

[Casey]

I appreciate the correction. Yeah, that's an important point.

[Lisa]

I didn't. I know you knew that. I didn't mean it as a correction for you. But just as if. If you're just hearing it, you may not pick up on that.

[Scott]

Well, now we know how to push Lisa's buttons. Just call it women's exponent, and that'll set you off. Set her up.

[Lisa]

You've been making a list as we go along here, Scott, I think.

[Scott]

Yeah, yeah, I made a couple notes. Made a couple notes. No, one more thing I think is important to highlight here, and this episode's getting long, but we gotta talk about Relief Society and women's involvement in medicine. This is. I don't know how well this is known, but it's important that women's work in medicine was promoted, supported and overseen by the Relief Society. Even, like as early as 1870, some LDS women actually go back east under Brigham Young's encouragement to medical school, like Romania Pratt, Ellis Shipp, Martha Hughes Cannon, just to name a few. Some were financially supported by the Relief Society in their studies, and when they finish their medical training, they come back to Utah and they practice medicine here, improving the level of medical care in the entire community. They train countless other women in nursing and midwifery and. Or is it midwifery? Lisa, correct me. Just kidding. And this is connected to what we talked about in our last episode, where we talked about women's healing practices, how women were involved as like, on the forefront of caring for the sick. This is part of women's work in the family and in the community. And so this professionalization of women's involvement in medicine is seen as an extension of that work. There's a lot of discussion at that time, not just among Mormons, about how women needed medical training so they could be better caregivers, so they could attend to the delicate matters of female health. And in the long run, this line of thinking is going to lose out to the professionalization of medicine by the male establishment. But to be clear, it starts out as a major female movement and had a strong presence within the church. In 1882, the Deseret Hospital opened as a. A place where professional and spiritual care could go hand in hand.

[Lisa]

I didn't make it probably clear enough in the notes, but the Deseret Hospital was a female run, female staffed medical organization. So the doctors were, were women. Romania Pratt was one of the main doctors there and so forth. So it was under the purview of

[Scott]

could only women go there and receive care.

[Lisa]

I don't remember off the top of my head if it was absolute, but it was primarily women and children.

[Scott]

Very cool. So there's a lot to talk about with all of this. Lisa, how are we doing? Is there anything we to fit in this episode before we wrap this all up? Because it's been so fun. I realize this is getting a little long, but anything else before we land the plane here today?

[Lisa]

Lisa, I thought we were only about halfway done. I mean, there's a lot more that. There's just a lot more that we need to say. And if we've got a captive audience, you know, why not. No, I'm kidding.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Lisa]

Let's just. I mean, we're going to pick up next time and we're going to talk about women's organizations in the 20th century and the developments there. So let me just tee that up a little bit with the ylmia. We'll talk about primary more next time. But as we said before, it starts out as the Young Ladies department in the Retrenchment association becomes the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement Association. As with the Relief Society, the YL associations are local, they're autonomous. There's no manuals, there's no lesson books. They get together. And that change in name to mutual improvement reflects a really important shift. Retrenchment is doing without. Retrenchment is you can't have this and you shouldn't do that and so forth. That's a negative focus. That's kind of hard to sustain. And that young people especially are going to be kind of like, nah, thank you anyway. That's not for me. So mutual improvement is a more positive, outward looking emphasis on self improvement, on good, as they would have said, good association, which means getting together with other people with similar goals and values and associating together in a way that will improve us and refine us. And you know, there's not extensive structures in the community for things like education yet. So the mia, the Mutual Improvement Associations are going to form a really important. They're going to serve a really important function in terms of education and cultural refinement and that kind of literacy, even that kind of thing. There's a lot of emphasis on trying to get young ladies to stand up and speak. The idea of women speaking publicly is still not a very comfortable thing. And you can see the church's culture of giving talks and speaking publicly taking shape through the young ladies and the Relief Society during this era. Now, from the beginning, questions arise about the relationship between the YL and the ym, the young men, the young women. And there's especially this feeling that like we can't get the young men to come unless the girls are there. And Brigham Young says, well, if the girls and the boys meet together, then it will be nothing but courting meetings and I will have nothing to do with it. And so there's always this push, pull tension about how much are we separate, how much can we do together, how much is that draw of teenagers wanting to socialize with each other, how much is that what we should work around? And they, they really try, they really hold the line on. No, we have gender specific missions in these organizations. But by the 1890s, something called the Conjoint movement starts to take place. So conjoint in their usage just meant meeting together. And so in 1896, the YM and the YL work together completely on an equal basis to plan and pull off the first June conference. Some members of our audience of a certain age will remember June Conference. It was a pillar of the Latter Day Saint annual calendar from 1896 to 1975. So it was the huge conference of the MIA every year. And this is where it started. And, and from this point on the

[Scott]

one, what they do was this like FSY or like what, what was the June conference?

[Lisa]

It was like a general conference. You know, it turns into something else in the 20th century. We'll talk about how it develops in the 20th century, but at this point it's. Everybody comes to the assembly hall and sits and listens to Elmina Taylor and Joseph F. Smith and whoever, you know, speaking. And there's a little bit of, I think of like training and reporting for the local leaders and so forth. But we'll talk more about June conference next time. The important point is that they are now starting to. The YL and the YM are now starting to work more closely together on the leadership level, general stake and local. They start running the associations, the MIA as it's coming to be called, on a pretty equal basis with committees of equal numbers of men and women who meet together, who set the agenda and so forth. And so this becomes kind of on the leading edge of the breakdown of the separate spheres model where men and women are going to be working more in partnership with each other. But also the really critical shift that this represents is the Young Ladies association going from a daughter of Relief Society to a sister with the young men. So as opposed to being a women's organization as it was kind of conceived of originally, it's now a youth organization. And the YL and the ym, the MIA is going to become the flagship of the church and the youth organization for the church and the recreation agency of the church. And so there's a lot of really interesting developments that we'll talk about there. But this is in the context of a time when life patterns are really changing for young women. There's this idea of the new woman who. Who's going to be educated and physically active and part of the public world and so forth. The MIA picks up on the energy around this idea of youth. That's another way that this organization then takes a different trajectory than what it was originally founded under. I think that's enough to say about that today. And we'll talk more about MIA and other organizations next time.

[Casey]

Okay.

[Scott]

That was a lot of fun.

[Casey]

That was a lot. Let's summarize as we land the plane. So we start out with the Nauvoo Relief Society, which is kind of this early spark, right. That sets precedent, at least for women to serve as leaders in the church and to have organizations that are suited specifically to their needs. But I think it's fair to say that the real explosion comes in the 1860s when Relief Society is restarted. And then it seems like Relief Society just leads to all these other organizations, like Eliza R. Snow said President Young authorizes women to act in a wide variety of spheres. I think that's an actual statement that she makes. And other church organizations like the mia, the Young Ladies mia, what's eventually going to become the Mutual. And then the Young Women's association, the primary association, which we barely got any time to talk about here, and a lot of things. So is it fair to say that the 1840s are kind of the first spark, but really the flowering, the flourishing of women's organizations comes in the 1860s with Elizar Snow kind of leading the way here.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Scott]

60s and 70s, which in turn leads to a flourishing of women's involvement in things like suffrage and medicine and education. So many good things start to just roll out of. Of this.

[Lisa]

I was gonna say, and we could mention if we want to call back to our previous episodes, that a lot of the ritual healing practices are taking place under the auspices of the Relief Society, too. So this frontline caregiving work, both spiritual and temporal, is very much connected with the Relief Society.

[Casey]

So we should also note, too, that we've done a little bit of this, but none of this is taking place in a vacuum. They're following trends of larger society. Lisa, you noted that Relief Society suffrage efforts actually make a direct attempt to connect with larger women's suffrage efforts. And that's something we need to keep in mind as we go into the next episode, where we're going to be talking about these organizations in the 20th century. And we also need to just be conscious of how American society is changing and how that's going to affect the women's organizations of the church as we grow beyond the United States and actually move into becoming an international church with international women's organizations and women from a number of cultures coming into the church.

[Scott]

Lots of things still to discuss, and we'll look forward to. Look forward to doing that in our next episode. So, Casey and Lisa, thank you so much.

[Casey]

Yeah, thank you. See you next time,

[Scott]

Sam.