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202 - Joseph Smith Promised Female Priests | Church History Matters I Women & Priesthood Series
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- [00:00]
A
This is a topic maybe more than any other, where people come to it with the baggage of their own gendered experience.
- [00:08]
B
Priesthood at this point starts to be more now as the authority or power
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A
of God itself as well, where we start to get the idea of priesthood, motherhood, the idea that men have priesthood, women have motherhood, and somehow that's parallel.
- [00:21]
C
If the aim of priesthood is to make us more like God, in a lot of ways, priesthood is a fatherly or a motherly occupation.
- [00:29]
B
We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their church callings, but what other authority can it be?
- [00:36]
A
But there are still only some who are ordained to hold the priesthood keys.
- [00:40]
B
It seems like the goal of Jesus Gospel is to get us all here.
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A
The priesthood is something that we belong to.
- [00:46]
C
Most people can't see past plural marriage to see the other things that were happening in Nauvoo.
- [00:50]
A
This is a real change. This is a real change.
- [00:57]
B
Hello, Casey and Lisa.
- [00:58]
A
Hey, guys.
- [00:59]
B
Hello.
- [01:00]
C
Hello.
- [01:00]
B
We are back for our final episode of Women and Priesthood. And, guys, I got to say, this has been a blast to do this with you.
- [01:09]
A
Yeah, it has. Thanks for the opportunity.
- [01:12]
C
Yeah, we have covered a lot of ground. So much so that I think we were discussing this and said we kind of need a let's put it all together episode where we sort of review and then summarize, because, boy, we've gone down a lot of paths and learned a lot, but we also want to have some good take homes for our audience out there that have been with us on this journey.
- [01:37]
B
Yeah. And before we get too deep down in that vein, I think, Casey, you and I just need to just give the biggest shout out to Lisa, don't we? She has been tremendous on this series. Her. Her extensive research. The notes for most of this series have come from her great research. And so, Lisa, we just want to say thank you and it has been so marvelous to have you on.
- [02:02]
A
Well, thank you. It's been really fun.
- [02:03]
C
You've done the lion's share of the work, and we hope that this points people towards some of the good stuff that's been coming from the Church history department, including Carry on the History of the Young Women, and the Discourses of Eliza R. Snow, which was just barely published, and the discourses of Emmeline B. Wells and at the pulpit and all this great women's history that has come out in the last little while. We're really living in a good time for women's history in the church.
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A
It's been generations in the Making we stand on the shoulders of pioneering giants who brought all this to light and gave us the tools to work with it and understand it.
- [02:39]
B
What other resources would you point people to? Lisa, if they're still hungry for more after all of this, where else should they go?
- [02:46]
A
Well, first 50 years of relief Society, we've talked about that quite a bit. That book is really intimidating to people because it's a big, thick documentary book. But if you just read the introductions to the various sections in that book, you will have a very good understanding of the first 50 years of relief Society and women's history in the church. So you don't have to read every single thing to get a lot out of that book. I really want to give a shout out to a book by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich called A House Full of Females. We've used that phrase a few times. Laurel is the one that kind of brought it into circulation as the title of her book. It's actually from Wilford Woodruff's journal, but the subtitle of her book is called Polygamy and Women's Rights in Early Mormonism, and she traces it up to 1870. And wow, it is. I mean, there's a reason that Laurel is one of the premier historians in America, full stop. And she's also a really great writer. So that book will give you a different view of the early church than you've ever had before. And it's really well done. I think we linked to my article about the history of discussions about women in priesthood. That's something people might be interested in, church history topics. Lots of good articles there about things like endowment and temple and healing and priesthood and stuff like that. So we are not lacking for good sources.
- [04:28]
B
They just keep coming out. It's hard sometimes to keep up with it all.
- [04:32]
A
So well, some of us get paid to do it. So we're going to keep cranking it out.
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, good. Keep it coming. We love it.
- [04:40]
C
And we hope that some aspiring historians out there too, will pick up some of these threads, like people like Lucy Bigelow Young, that we need more research on and we need a little bit more work done so that we can get things done too. In this last episode, maybe we return back to some of our first discussions where we. We had a hard time even deciding what the name of this series should be like. Is it about women in the church or is it about women in the priesthood? And one of the first questions that we started out with is just, so, what's the relationship between women and priesthood? And Scott, I'M going to point to you because you actually went home and did your homework and wound up coming up with a presentation you gave to your stake. Do you want to tell us that whole story for a second here?
- [05:36]
A
Yeah.
- [05:37]
B
Yeah. Our stake said we want to do a special Sunday Sunday school on women in priesthood. Actually, in your own wards, I want you to do this. This is a young adult stake. And so I looked at their outline that they sent out, and I thought, no, and I didn't give that feedback to anybody else, but I thought in our ward, where we have some control here, I'm a member of the bishopric. I thought, this is right in the midst of us doing all these great discussions. And so I looked at their outline. No hate on them. But I was just like, this. This is. This is a little lacking depth. And so I volunteered in our ward. I was like, I'll do it. I'll teach this lesson. And literally, like, I stayed up till, like, 2:00am the night before just like, how is the best way to express this to a group of young adults who are kind of uninitiated into the complexities of this world? And what came out of that, Casey, is I call it the Six definitions of Priesthood. And it went pretty well with them. And so maybe I can walk through that with you guys trying to answer the question, what is the relationship between women and the priesthood? You think by episode eight, which is, I think, where we're at today, we would have defined this by now and got it figured out, but we've been sprawling all over the place. So my effort has just simply been to synthesize our conversations into maybe a couple succinct talking points. So.
- [07:11]
C
And I'm glad you kept that quiet to not a friend, your stake leaders, and then announced it on your podcast.
- [07:20]
B
I love my stake leaders. They are wonderful. Love you.
- [07:23]
C
You're good. Right.
- [07:25]
B
But just the. The incongruence between the depth of what Lisa's bringing to the table and all the beautiful, like, resources out there, and then just, I guess it was really simple. And simple's not bad, but it was. I wanted to do something deeper. And what was cool is I learned that the youth of the church can handle it, and that was cool. So.
- [07:46]
A
So are you saying, Scott, that what you told them is, the Lord has something better for you?
- [07:53]
B
I did not say those words, but I like. I like the reference, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So what I. What I basically did is I said, listen, if you. If we want to understand the relationship between women and priesthood, then we need to understand how that word has been used, the word priesthood. Instead of trying to make everything fit into one definition of priesthood, which most people think of as the power and authority of God held by men today, maybe it's better just to learn all six definitions of priesthood within their historical context and notice how each definition has its own unique relationship to women. And then by the time we're done talking about this, you'll have an understanding of some of the complexity, but I think you'll also have clarity in. In ways that will be helpful. So that's what we did. Yeah. Do you want me to give you just a quick, a quick rundown, a quick version? We'll do a couple minute version today here.
- [08:48]
A
Absolutely.
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B
And then we'll take this in different directions too. But let's basically review then what we've talked about. So we talked about priesthood as the definition one first, one earliest, like 1830s and 40s definition was a holy order or a group of priests. Right. This is a DNC 84, definition 107D and C124. We won't go back and read some of the references we've talked about, but very clearly, explicitly, this is a group, a group of men. And the core understanding was there was two groups actually. There's an Aaronic and a Melchizedek group. And those were ordained as officers and they executed all the functions in the church. There were no female officers in the 1830s, as we've pointed out, every position was filled by someone either of the Aaronic priesthood or the Melchizedek priesthood. And so in definition one, how do women relate to the priesthood in this one? They are decisively outside of priesthood. Right. Women are beneficiaries of the ordinances performed by these officers. Right. They're beneficiaries of baptism, confirmation and the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, the three major rituals they were doing. But they, but they are not ordained as members of either priesthood order of the church. And I think this is pretty typical for churches in the 1830s, as we talked about. So that's definition one, definition two was a man's calling or office. Right. They talk about like, you know, what's your priesthood? Meaning what's your office or what's your calling in the church? And so you could answer that by saying, high priest is my priesthood, or elder is my priesthood, or deacon is my priesthood. It was just a shorthand way of talking about what is your office in the church. And we actually see that shorthand used in D&C121 and124. And again, we won't quote the verses, but we mentioned that in previous episodes. What's the relationship of women to this definition of priesthood? Again, they're outside of this definition. No women held offices or callings in the church pre1842. No women had a priesthood in the church at this time.
- [11:00]
C
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to push back on that one just a little bit. This is something I hadn't quite put together, but there was a woman who had a calling in the church in section 25.
- [11:14]
B
Emma Smith. No, fair, fair, fair.
- [11:16]
C
Her wording is ordained. She's told she's going to expound scriptures and exhort the church, and she's given a specific duty that she does carry out that. I don't know if it's a priestly function or not, but she puts together the hymnbook, the original hymn book for the church. So I would say you're 99% correct, but that's an important exception that maybe we should just note, because it plants the seeds for what we're going to talk about down the line here.
- [11:43]
A
I think that's the way to think about it, is that it's a seed. It's the potential.
- [11:47]
C
Yeah. And I'll acknowledge, you know, that revelation was given, and then she doesn't actually get a calling until 12 years later. But, I mean, if creating the hymn book is a calling and job and function within the Church, and not an insignificant one, too, then you know that that's the glaring exception to politics.
- [12:09]
B
Is it fair to call Emma's ordination a mostly dormant ordination? Probably, with the exception of the hymn book that she did there. Okay.
- [12:19]
A
And even with the hymn book, we don't really know how much she did and how much Phelps did. We absolutely know she worked on it, but we know he did, too.
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C
So, yeah, her name's on the COVID Right. So.
- [12:32]
A
And I wouldn't say, like, if we're talking about analogies, that putting together a hymn book would be. Have been considered like a priestly thing in other traditions. So it's definitely a recognized. What would we say? Job.
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B
Duty.
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A
Duty.
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C
Liturgical role.
- [12:56]
A
That's good.
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C
Music is a huge part of our legacy and our worship, too. So I wouldn't downplay that, too.
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A
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't think we appreciate that enough or talk about it enough.
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B
Yeah. I think if you asked Emma in 1832, he said, what's your priesthood? I don't think she would say him compiler. So I don't think that definition that she would think about herself that way, the same way that men did. But Casey, you are absolutely right that she was ordained to something. We don't have a name for what she was ordained to. It was a beautiful seed that was planted that germinates in the 1840s. Yeah, okay, good point. Exception noted. Okay, definition three. Men and women in the eternal order of the celestial kingdom. So this, this may have its first mention in Doctrine and Covenants 2. So this could be as early as Moroni's visits to Joseph Smith. Honestly, he's talking about turning the hearts of the children to the fathers and fathers to the children. That Elijah was going to reveal this priesthood. That could be a reference to that. Section 128, it's explicit in Nauvoo now as Joseph starts to teach about the restoration of priesthood. And in reference to that, Malachi prophecy means the constitution of the human family in a sealed network of relationships of each generation back all the way, every dispensation connecting back all the way to Adam's time. And that, he says, is the work of restoration of the priesthood. So it's this eternal family based holy order that predates the creation of the earth and will postdate it. I mean, it's not the creation of the earth, but this is the eternal thing, right? This is the thing that men and women will belong to as priests and priestesses, kings and queens. It seems like the goal of Jesus's gospel is to get us all here. This is the eternal kingdom of priests spoken of in scripture, like we talked about last episode, the kingdom of priests, the holy nation who will rule and reign with Christ when he returns. And so shepherding men and women into this holy order is really why do what we do in the church and why temples exist today, etc. So in terms of how do women relate to this definition of priesthood? Fully integrated, fully inside, right? Women are priestesses and queens in this priesthood order. That's definition three. Okay, definition four. Male and female temple workers were referred to as priesthood. And again, we mentioned this in our last episode. DNC124, verses 41 and 42 make the reference that the Nauvoo Temple priesthood is something that perhaps has not been had from the beginning of, from before the foundations of the world or something like that. That's how he phrases it, that there's something new going to happen in the Nauvoo temple that hasn't been done before relative to priesthood. And one of those things at least is that women are brought into the priesthood of the Temple, meaning those who officiate in the ordinances of the temple, they are right there on the front lines of the washing and anointing. They have been involved in the endowment. And so men and women are required to get all men and women who have ever lived into definition three, the eternal priesthood order. And so that's why this definition 4 is so important, that women were brought into the temple priesthood as full participants, and they officiated and still do in the temples today. And so I think definition four is super important. We don't tend to use that phrase anymore. We don't call temple workers who are women part of the temple priesthood. We don't say that about men, for that matter. We just call them temple workers. But it's important in Nauvoo to note that that's how they thought of it. Was this anointed quorum, this holy order, this priesthood group that women were just as much a part of as the men.
- [16:47]
A
Yeah.
- [16:47]
C
And I'll add 3 and 4 definitions. 3 and 4 are the ones where we need to do the most explaining to people of other faiths. Even members of restoration movements like Community of Christ don't have a very clear understanding of this. In my experience, like Community of Christ,
- [17:09]
B
they reject a lot of Nauvoo doctrine, don't they? That's probably.
- [17:12]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Community of Christ was kind of with us up till Nauvoo, and that's where they draw the line. But in our discussions with them, they kept saying, why don't women have priesthood in your church? And we had to explain this whole thing and basically say, well, by the way, you understand priesthood. I mean, there's these two definitions and things that we do that really do include women, and they just didn't have any idea. And sometimes the fog that surrounds definitions three and four is plural marriage. Most people can't see past plural marriage to see the other things that were happening in Nauvoo. And we've got to be frank and acknowledge that as well, that Nauvoo was a time when women were given a lot of authority. But a lot of people are off put by the idea of this new marriage system, too, that sometimes causes them to not go any further and just say, I'm tapping out here.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah, I think these are the two definitions that require the most explanation for members of the church.
- [18:09]
C
Yeah, agreed.
- [18:10]
A
Because these are the definitions that have kind of faded, maybe even kind of been lost. And I know when I first started working, you know, in the field, these ideas were totally new to Me, I had grown up in the church. I had never been taught this stuff. And, you know, I don't say that to condemn anybody. We all live in the times we live in and know what we know. But this is where the historical work that's been done over the last generation or so has been so important in recovering some understandings that then help us make sense out of what we have now and where we came from and help us to reconstruct that in a way that gives us more understanding.
- [19:01]
C
I think we talked in our last episode, too, about how we've been more open about the temple. I think a lot of reason why this was lost is people just weren't discussing the temple outside the temple, and we're kind of keeping it, you know, in a sacred place, which is totally appropriate, but sometimes not talking about it outside the temple where it could be most valuable and helping people understand our views of gender and equality and a lot of really important ideas.
- [19:32]
B
Yeah, what's. What's crazy is when you do understand definitions three and four here, and then you go to the temple, you realize as much as it may have faded in our, like, cultural speak about priesthood, it's all still right there.
- [19:44]
A
It's there.
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B
It's all still, like, operational. And so, yeah, it just brings a different paradigm to the temple. Right.
- [19:52]
A
That's why this is so powerful and so important, because it causes, you know, us people who have gone to the temple and had these experiences to go and go, wow. Yeah. Okay. There's more here that I've never seen before, and that's really powerful.
- [20:09]
C
Yeah. And I don't have a crystal ball, but it's. It seems like the recent major cultural shift in the church has been to center around the temple. We've got all these temples being built, and it's being emphasized more and more in general conference. And more and more people are becoming temple workers because we just have to staff these temples. And that's why I would say understanding definitions 3 and 4 is as critical now as it's ever been in the history of the church. Like, we've just got to do a better job teaching definitions three and four.
- [20:41]
B
Amen.
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A
Totally agree.
- [20:43]
B
Okay, we got two more left. Definition five. Definition five is simply that the priesthood is the power of God. I trace this to the 1850s to the 1910s, when this really gets established. Like, Brigham Young in 1856 calls the priesthood an invisible godlike power. Wilford Woodruff calls it in 1880s, a delegated power of heaven. And then Joseph F. Smith gives this Quote that gets quoted, I think the most in, in the early 20th century where he says, priesthood is the power of God delegated to man. And so definitions 1 through 4 actually start to give way to this definition. It's. I don't know fully why. Maybe it's simple to understand priesthood is the power of God itself, but priesthood at this point starts to be thought of less as a group of people authorized and empowered to act for God or this temple thing we're trying to create, the eternal thing we're trying to create through the temple rather. And we're just talking about it more now as the authority or power of God itself, period, full stop. How does it relate to women? That was painfully ambiguous for many decades. We've talked about that. We start getting into these questions about like, does a wife hold the priesthood then in connection with her husband? And we have President Taylor saying, yep. We have Joseph F. Smith saying, no. And there's, there's just this ambiguity about the relatedness to women. And to the point where after Joseph Smith we, I think it's fair to say, essentially say, no, women are not related to this particular. Like, you don't hold the power of God, sisters, you don't hold the priesthood. This is when we start talking about the priesthood as something that you hold and this eventually leads to a male only configuration. Is that fair to say?
- [22:37]
A
Yeah, this is the shift as well where we start to get the idea of priesthood motherhood, the idea that men have priesthood, women have motherhood, and somehow that's parallel. If we're talking about, you know, gender specific powers or, or whatever.
- [22:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. Every time that's brought up though, my head just keeps saying, isn't fatherhood parallel to motherhood?
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A
I know, anyway. I know, I know. It's interesting. That's actually interesting. Scott, I'm. Let me just riff here for a second.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because I've, I've noticed in the comments on, on the episodes, I just kind of glanced through to see, you know, like. Yeah, like what are some of the comments people are making? And they're quite, they're quite a few. Yeah, I know. Actually they're pretty good though, and some thoughtful, some thoughtful discussion. There are quite a few people still who do really believe in this priesthood motherhood paradigm. And they have a number of arguments or explanations for why it makes sense to them, why it works for them. And I don't, you know, we're not here to destroy anybody's worldview or faith or anything like that. You know, I mean, I think there's a reason that that paradigm has held on for so long, because there's something intuitive, something powerful, something that really works for a lot of people. Back to our very first episode, though, where we talked about how they just don't get it. We need to recognize that there are a lot of people it does not work for, and there are good reasons for that as well. So I suspect that that paradigm continues to circulate in some form and with some level of contestation about it. But anyway, just riffing a little bit while we're in that kind of area,
- [24:41]
C
and maybe, maybe I'm gonna. Maybe I'm gonna regret saying this, but I do see, you know, a connection between priesthood and fatherhood, both, to be honest with you, because, you know, if the aim of priesthood is to make us more like God, and God ultimately is being asked to be called by the name Father, then in a lot of ways, priesthood is a fatherly or a motherly occupation. And so I. I just. I don't see that as super offensive. But like you said, Lisa, I recognize that to some people it could be. It could be really hard for them to deal with. But again, it's not the sort of thing that, if I'm being frank, bothers me. In fact, in a lot of ways, I really kind of like it.
- [25:29]
A
Yeah.
- [25:30]
C
Because if the. The aspiration has become like Heavenly Father or Heavenly Mother, then priesthood is a path towards doing that.
- [25:37]
A
Well. And this is what we mean when we talk about patriarchal priesthood or cosmological priesthood like that order of kings and queens, priests and priestesses is an order of mothers and fathers, matriarchs and patriarchs. That brings us into. Into partnership that way. I think. And I think that's all great. I think historically speaking, that isn't necessarily the way that that paradigm got used and got talked about. And it's often been a way of telling women to quit being dissatisfied because, you know, you have motherhood and you don't have anything to complain about. And there's nothing that, you know, like, there's a register in which that discussion can take place that is less helpful than what we're talking about, than what we're talking about here.
- [26:34]
C
And I recognize that too. But I also see fatherhood and motherhood as the ultimate aims of the gospel, us learning to love and help people the way God does, and God is a father. So I can see how it could be misused, but in an idealized form, too. I can see how it could be really beautiful and uplifting and help us understand God. A little bit better.
- [26:59]
A
Well, one last thought I would say on that is the fact that it is difficult for a lot of people, I think speaks to how difficult many people's experiences are with fathers, with mothers, with fatherhood, with motherhood, with those relationships in this fallen world. And I think that anytime we're talking about gender and we're talking about these kinds of things, we're all bringing our own experience to it. And for some people, and if I can be personal, I'll say this on my own behalf, I have some really complex feelings about motherhood because of some experiences that I've had in my life. And so I think that a lot of times these discussions, you know, we have to be self aware about what our own baggage and our own experiences are that we bring to these discussions and that they can very often be weighted with trauma, grief, sorrow, abuse, problems that people have had in their family relationships. And it can be really hard to say, well, but that's just. It's not supposed to be that way. You just have to focus on the ideal. Okay, I get that. But it's not that always that simple. And especially for people who have experienced a lot of really difficult things in their lives that are based on gender.
- [28:28]
B
Yeah, fair.
- [28:30]
C
And I'm acknowledging, I think I acknowledged in the first episode that I come from, like, almost the best case scenario where, yeah, my mom and dad were just. They're still people that I aspire to be. Like, yeah, they weren't perfect. We got disciplined. Perfect enough, but perfect enough that when I'm trying to make my decisions as a father, I still say to myself, what did they do? It seems like they had it together.
- [29:00]
A
And you're really fortunate.
- [29:01]
C
That's the baggage I'm bringing.
- [29:02]
A
You're really fortunate to have that experience.
- [29:06]
C
I don't want to not recognize that.
- [29:09]
B
Now, just a moment ago, Lisa, you used the word ecclesiastical priesthood and cosmological priesthood. I just want to map those onto our five definitions so far. I think this is. Jonathan Staple uses the phrase cosmological priesthood. And great phrase, but it causes people to say, what the heck did you just say?
- [29:32]
A
What does that mean?
- [29:33]
B
Yeah, we would just call that definition three. Right. That's that eternal priesthood order that we're trying to create through temple work is the cosmological priesthood. Men and women, kings and queens, priests and priestesses. And then the ecclesiastical would be definition one and two, essentially.
- [29:46]
A
Right, Right.
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C
Yeah. The phrase Joseph Smith used was patriarchal priesthood, but that is kind of a loaded term today. So Jonathan adapted the term cosmological Barbara Gardner has used the term familial, which might be the easiest one for people to grasp around that it's kind of a familial priesthood. But.
- [30:04]
A
And that seems to be the priesthood referred to in like section 107 talks about. This priesthood was to be handed down from father to son. And that that seems to be this patriarchal, cosmological, however we want to say it, priesthood.
- [30:23]
B
Okay, so we have one more to go. We ready? So we just finished definition five, the power of God. And it eventually led to a male only configuration of understanding. So what is definition six? Well, this one is actually super modern. Definition six is that priesthood is all authority given to men or women in the church. And this is as recent as 2014. 2014. This, this came from Elder Dallin H. Oaks, then Elder Dallin H. Oaks now president. But as Elder Dallin H. Oaks was. I believe it's clear that he was responding. I haven't heard him say this directly, but it appears he was responding directly to some of the agitation that was happening in our culture, Allah, the ordain women movement and that kind of thing. There was a small group of women who were agitating for women's inclusion in like priesthood session of conference, but also to be ordained like two priesthood offices, definition 1 and 2, or definition 5, to hold the priesthood, the power of God. Right. And that tension had been boiling in the last few years before this, especially in 2013, it came to a head. And so in 2014, Elder Oaks gave a landmark talk called the Keys and Authority of the Priesthood, in which he introduced a sixth definition of priesthood. It's worth quoting him again. He said this. We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their church callings, but what other authority can it be? When a woman, young or old, is set apart to preach the gospel as a full time missionary, she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function. And then he said, whoever functions in an office or calling receive from one who holds priesthood keys, catch this phrase. Exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties. So whoa. So all women now and men who are set apart to a calling in the church are in this definition exercising priesthood authority when functioning in that calling. That's huge. So women are still not ordained to priesthood offices and they don't hold the priesthood, but they do exercise priesthood authority in their church callings. I think this is a nuance that is, I think it's taken off in the church in the last 10, 12 years in a big way.
- [32:53]
A
It's especially related to the term keys, which we haven't talked a lot about in the past. But the distinction being that everyone can exercise priesthood authority, but there are still only some who are ordained to hold the priesthood keys, and that anyone ordained to any office or calling has to act under the direction of someone who holds those priesthood keys. And again, like, we could go off on a long discussion about the history of the idea of keys and how did that take the shape that we have now. But the important thing to note is that that concept's there very early on and that in our current parlance and way of understanding it, that keys has become a crucial concept in how we understand priesthood and how it's exercised in the church.
- [33:47]
C
Like, I'm gonna. This is a quote from Gene Bingham, who was the General Relief Society president. And you can see her walking that line between priesthood authority, priesthood keys. She said in my colleagues, because I'm serving with priesthood authority given to me by one who has keys. There have been numerous times when I have had thoughts or words given to me that are just what a young woman or Relief Society sister or primary child needed to hear. I know that those words came become of because of the priesthood authority I was given when I was set apart for that calling. So you can see her mentioning keys and saying, because of the priesthood authority that I hold and that she feels like she's been given special power, like thoughts or words specifically relating to that. So you can see a general church leader there walking through this new definition, which is using discourse in church about. Yeah. Using that language. Yeah. That appears to be very closely modeled on what. What President Oak said.
- [34:51]
A
Yeah. And historically speaking, we've always said that any woman in a calling had the right to revelation, inspiration, spiritual power as part of that calling. What's changed is that we're now calling that priesthood.
- [35:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So. So that is like very. In our lifetime, we're right in the middle of a transitionary, like, stage where people. I'm noticing more and more people are expressing their understanding of the relationship between women and priesthood in this definition six way that Elder Oaks introduced. And so I see it catching on.
- [35:33]
A
I think that's right. And I think it's interesting to think about, like, what does that look like a generation from now? Because the generations of adult women now in the church, especially anybody my age or young or older, grew up being told, you do not have the priesthood and don't think you do and don't make any claims to that effect. I mean, it was explicit, not just
- [35:56]
B
at the local level, we're talking at the general level that was taught.
- [35:59]
A
Exactly, exactly. And so this is a real change. This is a real change. And. And what does it mean to young women to be told you're the class president. You have delegated priesthood authority to act in your calling. Like, I think that's a really powerful message to be giving young women and something that will change the tenor and the culture over time, but probably on a generational basis.
- [36:28]
C
And one other thing that I think is affecting a generational change is the change in missionary age. A couple years ago, me and two other authors were audacious enough to try and write a book called the Hundred Most Important Events in the History of the Church. And as you get closer to the present, it's harder to say, well, this is pivotal or this isn't. But one of them said, I think the age change in 2012 should be one of the 100 events. And I sort of said, I don't know if we've got enough distance from that to really judge, but they made a pretty good case. And we wound up including it in the book to just say, well, now I think the missionary force went from being like a quarter female to being half and half. And they also changed the language, the titles of leadership in the mission field. And now, within the last year, shifting the mission age to 18 for both men and women, I think is one of those things that affected generous change in a class of byu. When I used to say, raise your hand if you served a mission, it was usually about a third and mostly male. And now it's almost everybody, male and female. And that has seriously shifted the discourse because women are being put into these positions where they have to exercise authority, where they're going through kind of the school of theology that gets offered as being a missionary. And I see that as another major factor, maybe even bigger than the ordain women movement, as changing the discourse in the church.
- [38:03]
A
Yeah, I think that's right. When we wrote the history of the young women organization. Carry on. We decided that we thought that this was a pretty significant landmark, even though by the time this happens, the age change is affecting young women who are no longer in the young women organization because that now ends at age 18. But it really reorients what are we doing with young women as they grow up. And the fact that we know that we are preparing a large number of them to become missionaries really focuses the efforts that we make to teach and to bring young women along. And so, like, it has implications for the Young women organization and beyond the fact that this has become more of a. More of a focal point. And then along with that is the fact that you have to go to the temple before you go on a mission. And so that has served to make temple experience more widely distributed and more widely accessible for women generally and for young women particularly. So I think, Casey, I think you were right to put that in your book. I think when someone goes to revise your book 100 years from now, that one will still fit.
- [39:32]
B
That one's gonna stay.
- [39:33]
C
And it wasn't me, by the way. It was one of my co authors. I'm sure I want to give them credit. So I fought against it.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah.
- [39:41]
B
Okay, so to recap, definition 1. Holy order, a group of priests. 2. A man's calling and office. 3. Men and women in the eternal order of the celestial kingdom. 4. Male and female temple workers. 5. The power of God held by men. 6, all authority given to men or women in the church. So question for you, Lisa and Casey. What's the relationship between women and priesthood?
- [40:15]
A
It's complicated.
- [40:17]
B
There you go.
- [40:18]
C
You know what? I was in it. I was a meeting with another person on our. That works at. That works with me. And I just asked him that, like, what would you say? And they immediately said, it's complicated. But if we change the question to what's the relationship between men and priesthood? It's complicated.
- [40:38]
B
Complicated.
- [40:39]
C
And that's okay. That's okay.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah. But we just wanted to show that. Right? We just want to show that it's complicated. Complicated. And now you know why. Hopefully. Right. Hopefully this has been helpful to say this is why it's, it's kind of challenging.
- [40:51]
C
I don't, I don't know if you guys listen to the episodes again. I do. And in the first episode, I think I asked both of you that question and you both did the it's complicated thing. And then I was like, okay, just in one sentence and neither of you could do it too. But I, I still think I, I would give the answer that, that I. My answer would be, women have priesthood. I mean, I just.
- [41:16]
B
Definition six. Just go for it. Definition six.
- [41:19]
C
Yeah. I mean, if someone comes up and says, I just need a short one sentence answer, I would say, yeah, women hold priesthood in our church. It's different than the way men hold it. But it's. There is the answer I would give if I'm wrong. Okay, I'll deal with that.
- [41:35]
B
But this is definitely a definition six framework that you're coming from, right?
- [41:39]
C
Probably. But a little Three and four mixed in there, too, right?
- [41:44]
A
Yeah, I think that's it. I think the key is, again, to make it complicated. What do we mean by priesthood? Which, you know, what sense of priesthood are we talking about? And, you know, I personally find it really helpful to talk about the priesthood as something that we belong to. The priesthood is an order of people.
- [42:06]
B
Definition three. I'm noticing definition three.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah. And. And who have. I mean, it's even there in definition one, too. I mean, but the idea that the priesthood is us. It's us. We are part of the order of the Son of God. And there may be different assignments and responsibilities and, you know, that may look different at different times and for men, for women or whatever, but, you know, I really think that's the gist of Joseph Smith's revelations and teachings. We are the priesthood, and we are part of the order of the Son of God. So I haven't. I think that's the most helpful way to think about it.
- [42:47]
C
The person that I talked to actually said, let me rephrase the question. Do women belong to the priesthood?
- [42:53]
A
Yeah.
- [42:55]
C
And I said, okay. And then he said, yes, yeah, they do. And I felt like, yeah, that's probably
- [43:02]
B
definition three and four. This is how my brain does it. I'm like, cataloging, like, when people talk, I'm like, which definition are they using? Because I think it's fair. Right? It's fair. Whatever. Whatever. Definite. Like, let's just make sure we're clear on what we mean by priest.
- [43:15]
A
We just need you to write up these definitions of priesthood and send them to church headquarters and get the curriculum people and everybody so we can all be on the same page.
- [43:25]
B
Oh, man, oh, man. Above my pay grade, but.
- [43:28]
C
Well, Scott, that, that, that was masterful. And you know what? I wish I was a YSA in your word and could have heard this.
- [43:37]
B
They got it, guys. That was what was cool. Like, they're like, okay. I actually asked them that question kind of jokingly. I said, so what's the. What's the relationship between women and priesthood? Turn to your neighbor and have a discussion about that. And they were like. And they came to that same conclusion. Depends on which definition we're talking about. And I thought, perfect. I asked them, is this helpful? And they're like, tremendously. Yeah. It takes away a lot of the fog and angst. And so there you go.
- [44:06]
C
It's already. It's already changed the way I teach this. And I want to take these six definitions out for a little bit of a test drive. So we've got some other lingering questions like sister missionaries. Lisa, give us a little bit of background. Since one of the key pivoting changes we're seeing right now is the role of sisters as missionaries in the church. Women, female missionaries. Let's talk a little bit about that, too. That's one thing that we haven't quite covered yet.
- [44:36]
A
Yeah, I realized that when we did our survey of women's organizations and women in priesthood in the second half of the 19th century and everything that just kind of skipped over this really important landmark, which is 1898, is when we first call young single women to serve as proselyting missionaries. There were women that were, you know, went on missions with their husbands or were involved in missionary work one way or another before that. But this is the date that we can trace back our current practice to. And the thing that's interesting about that, there's a really great article on this by a friend and colleague of mine named Matt McBride. The title of the article is called Female Brethren. And because this is kind of jokingly how these first sister missionaries were referred to, you can imagine, you know, two girls showing up in this totally male space and tradition and. And totally know what to do with them. But. And so there were a lot of questions. We won't get into all the details of it, but super interesting how the. How bringing women into the missionary force, like, caused this whole reckoning about gender norms and roles and things like that. But one example that's super fun and kind of interesting. And you can see this, it's on the Church Historians Press website. We have a section on there. You know, we've talked about the diaries of Emmaline Wells and Eliza R. Snow, discourses and so forth. One section we have as well is some journals of two of these really early sister missionaries who served in England and Scotland. And Sister Liza Chipman was one of these. And. And we have her letter of appointment as a missionary. And so because this was so new, these were form letters that were sent out to missionaries and they had not been adjusted yet to reflect. You know, they didn't have. Literally, they did not have a template for how do you send a letter of appointment to a woman to be a missionary?
- [46:56]
B
Oh, wow.
- [46:57]
A
And so you can see on here, it's printed, it says beloved Brother, and that's crossed out and it says Sister. And then this is to certify that you're appointed to labor in the London Conference. So blah, blah, blah. The second paragraph, it is your duty. This is what the letter says. It is your duty. To preach the gospel. And then this is crossed out. Administer the ordinances thereof that pertain to the office of elder. That's crossed out. And a sister president discharging any duties and so forth. And then farther down, there's a whole paragraph here that says, dear Sister, keep the commandments of God. Honor the covenants you have made with the Lord and your brethren. You know, that kind of exhortation, and avoid the very appearance of evil that the Holy Spirit may accompany your administrations. Interesting. They didn't cut that out. They didn't cross administrations out. But that the. And instead of power of the priesthood, they've crossed that out to say, spirit of your mission and calling may increase upon you. So this is just kind of a fun example of how bringing women into a place that they haven't been in before is kind of disruptive. And they have to, you know, kind of figure out what to do. The whole article is great. We ought to put a link to it in the. In the show notes or something. But. But that, but it's important to recognize that this, this is an important measure in terms of bringing women more fully into priestly functions in the church by calling them on missions, which again then means that they're endowed and that they go out and labor, you know, as missionaries on a fairly similar basis to what men did. So, and that, you know, has. There's an unbroken line from 1898 to the present. We were just talking about the changes in missionary age and the implications for all of that. But the implications were there all along for. For what this meant for women and for the church more broadly.
- [49:06]
B
And Elder Oaks. I'm saying Elder Oaks, because it's back to that 2014 talk. He specifically mentions sister missionaries. Right. That she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function, to go out and preach the gospel.
- [49:20]
A
That's right.
- [49:21]
B
Definitely. Definitely priestly. And so definition 6 just totally sits really naturally with sister missionaries.
- [49:29]
A
And if we go back to the very earliest days and definitions of priesthood, that's what priesthood was. You were a preacher. You were to go out and preach the gospel, now administer the ordinances. And that's the distinction between men and women. But that's always in the temple. Exactly. But that's always been the fundamental understanding of missionary work is that it's a priesthood function.
- [49:57]
B
I've heard. I remember growing up in the church as a young man and, you know, lay local leaders trying to explain why men need to go on a mission and how women can choose to go on a mission is, they would say It's a priesthood duty. Therefore, men need to go, but sisters, we are grateful for your help. Something like that. But I haven't noticed that language in a really long time. It's just, you know, I mean, the same idea is still out there of sisters. It's a choice. And brethren, it's more of a duty. Yeah, but it does, it does. If you ask why it does come back to. Well, because it's a priesthood duty to preach the gospel. But now with definition six, what do we do? Right now it's if you're called. And if you're called, then you now have priesthood authority to, you know, do that, to perform that function whether you're a man or a woman. And so, yeah, definition six is fun.
- [50:58]
C
I have a question. When I was a missionary, we were given little ministerial cards so that we could, you know, go into a prison or something like that and save our ministers. I went to Florida, so it's half prisons. I had to bust mine out a couple times.
- [51:18]
A
Seriously.
- [51:19]
C
But women are given a similar ministerial certificate, aren't they? I don't know personally.
- [51:27]
A
Yeah, I don't actually know the answer to that either. I'm sure someone will tell us in the comments.
- [51:36]
C
Yeah, okay. I'll ask one of my classes the next time.
- [51:40]
A
Yeah, you should.
- [51:41]
C
I'm pretty sure that's the case.
- [51:42]
A
Yeah.
- [51:43]
B
Yeah, but okay, let's say that it is the case. Where did you want to go with that, Casey?
- [51:46]
C
Because just saying that, I mean, isn't that an official recognition that they're ministers? It's just again, we're going back to what's priesthood? And how do we define priesthood? But from someone on the outside looking in, someone that's not part of our church. If I were them, I'd look at a sister missionary and say, well, they're a type of priesthood, pretty priestly. Are they nuns and the boys are monks or something like that? Is that an analogy that works? In a lot of ways it doesn't, but in some ways it does.
- [52:19]
A
Well, this is where we could follow up on another thing that has been said. We talked about it a little bit at one point. This idea that Latter Day Saint women do things that would require ordination in other traditions, you know, in some other churches and religions. And, you know, I don't, I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of missionary status in other religions. So, you know, I can't speak to that. But this is something that's been said a number of times, I think, by way of, of trying to shift Our perception about women in priesthood and so forth. And on the one hand, I think there's a lot of truth to it. Women in our church preach from the pulpit, they hold official positions, they serve missions, you know, and of course, then there's the whole temple with the priestly functions there. So, yes, Latter Day Saint women do things that would require ordination in other traditions. However, we need to be careful about that analogy, because when a woman is ordained to be a minister in another denomination, and again, I don't claim to be an expert on all of this, but they then have authority specifically to do the kinds of things that Latter Day Saint women do not have permission to do. Performing ordinances, baptisms, marriages, you know, making decisions for a congregation and being the person who's the leader and who's in charge of things and has, you know, the final say, if you want to put it that way. So there are ways that that analogy works, and there are ways that that analogy doesn't work. And so we should stop trying to use it as a trump card, so to speak, you know, to shut down the discussion. It's actually really interesting to say, oh, okay, I can see how that's true. But then maybe how is it not true as well?
- [54:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well said.
- [54:37]
C
Okay, well, I want to shift to something that I have really wanted to talk about, and that is Heavenly Mother. There is a Gospel topics essay on Heavenly Mother, and it was produced by the Church History department, but it's brief. Just to point out something. I thought I'd re. Listen to it to get ready for our discussion today. And I listened to my stuff on double speed. But I was walking somewhere and I realized I'd made it from one building to the next building. And the essay was done. It was that fast. Just really, really brief. In fact, I paused and stopped and looked down at my phone because I wondered if my, you know, service was. Was interrupted or something like that. And then I scrolled through the text and realized, oh, I. I know. I just made it through the whole thing in four minutes. That's it. As someone who works in the church history department and you were part of the team that helped put this together, is that correct to say, Lisa?
- [55:39]
A
Yeah.
- [55:40]
C
Give us some background.
- [55:41]
A
Yeah. I think it's a reflection of trying to be very, very careful about what we do and don't know. And whenever we talk about women and women in the church, you know, Mother in Heaven comes up as a. As a topic, understandably so. And we're in this kind of. Kind of weird position. We believe in it. We hold it as a. As a foundational concept and doctrine, but we don't really know very much about it. We don't have any scriptural revelation. We have very little to. To go on. Part of the purpose of the essay was to lay out what we know about the origins of this teaching, and we can confidently trace it to Joseph Smith, at least if we take the word of the people who then went on to disseminate it.
- [56:43]
B
So secondhand sources that we trust. Right.
- [56:47]
A
Secondhand. But whose basis is saying, I learned this from Joseph Smith.
- [56:53]
B
Like Eliza R. Snow, Like.
- [56:55]
A
Like Zina. Like Zina Hunter, Zina D.B.
- [56:59]
B
young.
- [56:59]
A
We talk W. Phelps. Yep. We talk about Zina in the essay and how her mother had died. And she asked Joseph, will I know my mother again when I see her on the other side? Which speaks to how rudimentary their understanding of the spirit world was at the time. And Joseph said, yes. And not only that, you will meet the mother of your. Or the wife of your father in heaven. Your mother in heaven. Now, that story, the way that that story is told is filtered through guess who? Susie Young Gates, who wrote it. And it's in the History of the Young Ladies Organization that she published in 1911. But Sousa was very close to Zina. And there are. There's a lot in Susan's writings. In fact, I'm going to have a whole chapter of my book about this, about how she's immersed in. In this oral culture where she is being. She's hearing stories and being told things directly by firsthand participants. So I think we can feel pretty confident now. You know, Susan could write a good story. And it may be that the way it's told is a little bit colorful, but I think that the fundamental idea that Zina testified this was something Joseph Smith taught her. I think we can rely on that.
- [58:20]
C
And then that's chronologically the earliest mention we know of it would be, yes, but it's secondhand filtered through Susa.
- [58:30]
A
We don't have a primary source dating to 1839, but this account dates to 1839, when Zina's mother died. So, yes, chronologically, that would be the earliest. And then just after Joseph Smith dies, within a short period of time, you have Eliza R. Snow and William Fell publishing poetry that refers to this idea and talks about it. And that is, you know, the understanding is that they had learned about that from Joseph Smith himself. So that was part of the purpose for the essay, was just to say, here's what we know about it. It isn't very much, but we're pretty confident about what we do know about the historical origins.
- [59:14]
C
And it's kind of a conundrum because we don't know very much about it. And yet sometimes people act like it's kind of a fringe doctrine when it's in some pretty authoritative places. Like the 1909 First Presidency Statement on the origin of man, which we spent our whole last series talking about, says this. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal father and mother and are literally the sons and daughters of deity. And that is not. That's over a century old. 1909. It's coming directly from the first presidency, and it's very direct in its language. So we can't really say that this is an esoteric teaching either. It seems like it fits into things well.
- [60:02]
B
And we could talk about the family proclamation. Yeah, yeah, that's the First Presidency and the quorum of the twelve apostles, and it's a proclamation to the whole world. This is not esoteric doctrine that missionaries whisper to each other on P days. You know, it's like, this is a proclamation to Earth. Like, attention, everybody. We have heavenly parents. We are human beings, male and female, created. The image of God was the language. Each is a beloved spirit, son or daughter of heavenly parents. So, yeah, it's almost like they even ratchet up that 1909 statement to make it more bold, more clear. And so, yeah, this is not esoteric. This is not fringing.
- [60:46]
A
Well, this is a topic maybe more than any other, where people come to it with the baggage of their own gendered experience and ideas. And I have said that the mother in heaven idea is kind of a Rorschach test that people bring to that and see in it what they see based on their own experience, their own longings, their own, you know, what they wish was true or whatever. And it's a really, really tricky line because we believe in it, we want to own it, we want to honor it, we want to talk about it. But there's not that much we can say without getting into realms of speculation and things that aren't necessarily helpful just
- [61:37]
C
to kind of demonstrate that paradoxical nature. Another huge milestone, I think, was in 2019, when the young women's theme was changed from we are daughters of our heavenly father to now it reads, I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. Like, that's something that the young women say every time they meet when they recite the theme. And yet I tried to look up the Last time that there's been a major statement on Heavenly Mother made in General Conference. And I found this talk from April 2022. This is Elder Dale Renlund of the Twelve. He said, Very little has been revealed about Mother in Heaven. But what we do know is summarized in the gospel topic found in our Gospel library application. Once you've read what is There, he
- [62:24]
B
just gave a shout out to your team. That's awesome.
- [62:27]
C
Well, this is even better. He went on and said, once you've read what is There, you will know everything that I know about the subject. I wish I knew more. You, too, may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development. But please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation. So that one paragraph right there sums up a lot of this, where we wish we knew more. We definitely believe in this. But we also have to be cautious that we don't take, like you said, Lisa, our own personal baggage and kind of run with the idea and say more than we know or don't know at this point.
- [63:03]
A
Yeah. Which, again, it's tricky because those kind of statements can be heard to say, shut up. Don't talk about it. You know, to shut down discussion. And people, you know, feel that really keenly when they. When they feel like that's the. That's the case. So I think what Elder Renlund. I thought Elder Renlund's talk was good, and I appreciated his candor about that. Interestingly, Art of cap, in the mid-1980s, when she first came up with the young women theme, the original version of it was, we are daughters of heavenly parents, and we tell this story and carry on. So you can look at that and get the whole story. But this speaks to the way that our sensibilities and the discourse has changed over time because that got kiboshed, presumably because there were people in the gatekeeping ecosystem who just did not feel like it was appropriate to. To talk about or allude to Heavenly Mother. And I think that probably reflects what we were talking about with this older sensibility and this idea that we can't talk about it because it's too sacred. But she, you know, clear back in the 1980s, they were considering this. And then it took another almost 40 years for that to make its way into an official, you know, church statement theme thing. So that's really interesting.
- [64:52]
C
That's another generational change.
- [64:54]
A
It is like we've been talking about. Yes, it is. It is. And I would also, again, like, I want to be really careful about this because Like Elder Renlund says, like President Hinckley says. I think we quote him in the essay. You know, there was some concern about people praying to Heavenly Mother and, you know, like, what is appropriate. And the. The guidance from the church has. Has been consistent. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, we should pray to the Father. The place that an understanding and belief in a heavenly mother holds for an individual based on their experiences, their own spiritual experiences and revelation and so forth. I think we should treat that as sacred and we should allow people to kind of. To there to be kind of maybe a range of beliefs and feelings about this. And I think what the church leaders are saying is the line is, what do we teach and do publicly and publicly? We do not pray to our Mother in heaven. We don't teach beyond what we know and so forth. For some women especially, there are reasons that this is very tender and very deep and very meaningful. And I don't think we should try to shut that down. I think we should respect and honor those spiritual longings and spiritual experiences. And again, they don't get it. Some people have that, those feelings and approach to the subject, some people don't. I think we should give each other grace about it. And I agree. I think that it's a true principle, it's a true doctrine. We'll understand more about it someday. And in the meantime, we just need to thread some needles and be careful and then be gracious towards each other in how we think about it.
- [66:57]
C
Well said. The quote that you were alluding to, Lisa, is from President Hinckley. It's a talk he gave in 1991. And here's the quote. He said, logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in heaven, we have a Mother in heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. He was the first counselor in the first Presidency when he made this statement. Then he added, however, in the light of the instruction we've received from the Lord himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the church to pray to our Mother in heaven. And that's quoted in the essay, I believe. And the essay states clearly that the church teaches not to pray to Mother in Heaven. I want to add maybe one other thought. I went and talked to another colleague about this and said, I wish we knew more. And they just made the point of saying, you know what? Maybe this is a lesson that we should be cautious about over claiming. Because when it comes down to it, we don't know that much about Heavenly Father.
- [67:52]
A
That's right.
- [67:53]
C
The way that we learn about Heavenly Father is by studying the attributes of Jesus Christ. And they just made the point to say those attributes really aren't specific to any gender. If we're saying, well, Heavenly Father's compassionate because Christ is compassionate, or Heavenly Father is kind because Christ is kind, you could swap out Heavenly Father there and put in Heavenly Mother, and everything still works. That if we want to understand the character of our mother in heaven, the person we look to is our Savior, and we have to do that with both of them because they've just placed him at the center of our salvation and our exaltation. And so I know that we have had a few appearances of Heavenly Father. I wish that we had a few appearances of Heavenly Mother. I don't want to go too far there. But to say, when it comes down to it, fundamentally, they've sent Jesus Christ as their representative and as their exemplar. And so maybe we shouldn't overclaim about either one of them or go too far when it comes to things like that.
- [68:51]
A
I think that's broadly true about a lot of things. What do eternal families look like? We tend to project the 1950s nuclear family onto that idea, which is not what they did in the 1840s. What did the family look like to them in the 1840s? Right. There are some things where we just don't know as much as we think we do. And it would be good for us to have some epistemic humility about what we think we know and what we don't know. That said, I hope that we can understand why for. Especially for some women, there is a longing for a female divine, for a model of female divinity. That, again, like, I completely agree with what you're saying, Casey, about Christ and about our. You know, really the characteristics of the righteous and of salvation are not gendered. But, you know, there are really good reasons why a lot of women really long after knowing a heavenly mother and why that is a really meaningful thing for people. So, you know, I just think we have to try to understand more than we dismiss people's ideas and longings on that subject.
- [70:25]
C
Yeah. And I go back and forth between we don't really know much about this and wanting to shout this from the rooftops.
- [70:31]
A
Yeah. And isn't it great that we know what we know?
- [70:34]
C
Yeah. I mean, the idea that there's a divine feminine, that there's a woman who presides over the universe alongside a man, is deeply meaningful to me. And I know it's deeply meaningful to a lot of the important women in my Life. But I don't want to over claim. But at the same time too man, that's great. That is one thing that keeps me in the church and believing in the restoration and seeing how powerful and great and good that is that all of the teachings of the restoration bring us closer to God by tying us to God by basically saying we're the same type of being that God is fundamentally. And to say that to a woman and say. And fundamentally you're not going to go through a radical change when you become like God. You're going to keep your, your femininity and, and, and all the wonderful things that come with that as you embrace exaltation. But I don't know what exaltation looks like. I'm just experiencing.
- [71:33]
A
And we don't know what feminine and masculine looks like in an eternal context. Because that's true.
- [71:39]
C
So much of it's cultural.
- [71:40]
A
Yeah. We're so tied in this world to culture and frankly to hormones and the bodies that we inhabit that affect how we understand what gender is. So there's room for a lot of understanding that we don't have yet. But we are grateful for what we do have.
- [71:58]
B
So let me try to bring this all to a close. Help me out here. But I think if we could jump off from what we just talked about. There's this great statement from then elder DALLIN H. OAKS, May 1995, couple months before the Family Proclamation comes out where he said, our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our aspiration is to be like them. Full acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother right there and then. If we tie that into this whole series and all those different definitions of the priesthood we just went through in this episode. The point of the priesthood definition 1, 2 is to get men and women into definition 3. This eternal priesthood, which is this, which is becoming kings and queens, it's becoming the kind of people that our heavenly parents are. Right? The work that men and women do in the temple on behalf of the living and the dead is for this. It's to help us become like our heavenly parents. Right? Definition 5 and 6, the power of God or the authority of God that we hold in our church callings, it is ultimately to bring this about, isn't it? It's to help us become like our heavenly parents. And so all roads lead to that. I love Elder Oaks statement there. Our theology begins with this. And I think it's fair to say, and I think he agrees. And it also ends with this. That's where our theology ends. That's where all of the ordinances of the priesthood. That's where all the. All of our callings, that's why we do missionary work. That's why we shepherd people to the temples. Like, ultimately, it's to help us become like him and like her at the end of the day.
- [73:46]
A
Well said.
- [73:47]
C
Very good. Well said. Well, this has been fun. And Lisa, I can't promise we aren't going to call you again and bring you back in, especially when we get in over our heads. We also hope that, like, we started this episode, that we've shined a light on some of the wonderful work being done by people like Lisa on the history of women in the church and that you'll go and check out some of those resources we've talked about and explore further and learn more, because this is a well that will never run dry. There's just so much to learn, and there's new history being created by men and women all over the world every day that we hope that you'll follow up, learn about, and embrace.
- [74:29]
A
And I'm just going to say we're working on a really exciting new women's history project right now and can't tell you any more than that about it because it's not official yet, but we are really up to our elbows in just beautiful, beautiful history of women in the church.
- [74:49]
C
Always something to look forward to.
- [74:51]
B
All right, guys, this has been so fun.
- [74:53]
A
Lisa, thanks, you guys. Thanks again and thanks, everybody for listening.
- [75:02]
B
Sa.