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- [00:00]
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Sa. Foreign
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Bitcoin Monday Freaks. It's your host Odell here for another Silo Dispatch. The show focused on actual bitcoin and freedom tech discussion. Today is Monday, February 9th. We are currently recording at at 1900 UTC. You'll be listening to this in a few hours. The current block height is 935786 sats per dollar is1422 and we're trading at a Bitcoin price of $70,370. I have a great guest lined up. Return guests. Before we get to that, just real quick thank you to everyone who continues to support the show. As always, Silo dispatch is 100% audience funded. We have no ads or sponsors. We're living that value for value lifestyle. So thank you all for supporting the show. You can do that by donating SATs or you can do that by sharing it with your friends and family. Silo Dispatch is available in all of your favorite podcast apps. The share goes a long way. It's pretty much the only reason people find out about the show is by freak sharing it with their friends and family and people they care about. The largest zaps from last week was. Ironically the largest zap was 21,000 sats from Money Badger who was my guest last week. Great service. You should consider listening to that episode if you haven't and Ride or die freak mav21 with 10,000 sats. He said. Great RIP. Anyway freaks, all relevant links are still dispatch.com I think I said the show was last week, but it wasn't. It was I think two weeks ago. And that's because I don't have ads or sponsors. So I don't have to promise my sponsors that we'll do four or five or six shows a week and end up filling you with a bunch of slop that is completely useless information and waste your time. And time is the only thing more scarce than bitcoin. So I'm only trying to do shows that I think are valuable and worthy of your guys time and my time and our guests time. So with that said, we have returned guest good friend Alex Gleason here.
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A
Hey everybody.
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Our resident AI expert at Civil Dispatch.
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A
Yes, happy to be here. Thank you for having me on again, Mr. Odell.
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B
Yeah, I was looking it up. It's always a pleasure. The first time I had you on was June 2025. We talked about your past at Truth Social and how that has led to Nostr AI and Bitcoin. And then you came back on August 15th and we vibe coded live on air, which was fun. Since then, everything has accelerated tremendously. It's an insane time. We were talking earlier before the show. Like, hard to imagine better timing for this conversation. Me personally, dude, I'm hooked. I'm in. Like, I. This is.
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A
I like, yeah, it was one of your first times vibe coding right in, in that earlier session and you did so good on it. What have you done since then?
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B
I mean, that was August 2025. Like, I just, I don't know if you've seen my recent Noster post, but like, I'm posting like the people I used to roll my eyes at right now. Like, I think this changes everything.
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A
Oh yeah.
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B
And I mean the big thing for me is so with that we were talking about vive coded apps or websites or whatever, like things that you are creating for other people. And the big change in my thinking, which I still think that is, you know, a huge paradigm shift, don't get me wrong. But the big change in my thinking is like three weeks ago or four weeks ago, someone released the OpenClaw open source project and it hit the world like storm. It's gone completely viral. I dove in a week ago and the whole idea is to the freaks that aren't aware is like this, this is an open, open source agent, an open source like AI Persona with memory that lives on your own device, holds whatever data you give it to locally, and then can either hit local models if you have good enough hardware, or it can hit any hosted model you want to do different tasks. And what's crazy, there is still very early. There's all these different. There's, you know, trust issues and security issues and privacy issues. But what it gives you is this taste of what I think is the future user experience for almost everything we interact with on a digital basis. And so it's a huge shift from this idea of point and click to chat and do.
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A
Yeah, people are joking that it's AGI. They're like, oh, this is like finally AGI is here.
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B
I mean, it definitely isn't.
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A
Nothing really has changed on the model end. It's just that the way that we're using it now is different.
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B
Exactly.
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And, and the, the big barrier that has been moved down now is just accessibility to, to the model. Because the big thing that that open cloud changes, you can communicate with the AI over existing platforms. So you communicate to it over signal, over noster, over WhatsApp, you know, like whatever people are already used to, to communicating with. And that makes it feel like you're talking to an actual person. And so you can like invite people who, you know, have never used AI before into a chat room with an AI on a messaging app that they're used to using. And, you know, I invited my family to a chat room with, with a chatbot that I was working on at OpenClaw, and it's just so interesting to, to see that all play out. So, yeah, I think that this is the future way. You know, I had been building Shakespeare, I had, I made huge advancements on it since you last tried it, but I'm already feeling like that way of building AI platforms where there's an onboarding flow and the user has to learn like how to, how to use your product, basically is not going to be the way that sort of the mainstream audience interacts with AI. They're going to be interacting with AI as if the AI is another person.
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B
Yeah, so it's like a robot butler. First of all, it's so far from AGI. Like I, it's like sometimes it's like wrangling with like a very advanced toddler. And I have a toddler, so I know what that's like. And I actually talked in a lot ways I talk to it like my toddler. Like, you try and keep it like very simple and straightforward, but it's a glimpse, it's a glimpse of the future. And specifically my, my, my other, my historical main focuses of Noster and Bitcoin just slot so well into it. It's so obvious that if you're like trying to use it to access Twitter, for instance, this closed system, you just feel the pain. You feel the pain immediately. As opposed to Nostr, where you can just say, spin up an nsec, post a Nostr, scan Nostr, look up these different things and then the bitcoin side is the same things like make a cashew wallet. Like my robot, soulless robot slave has a cashew wallet.
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A
Because the web is all closed. And that is the biggest barrier to vive coding into AI right now is that all of these platforms that are the most famous popular big tech ones people interact with are all locked down. So, you know, these walled gardens are preventing, are preventing AI from flourishing.
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B
Right. And like the, the, the perfect example here of our past conversations moving into this conversation is so like one of the things that I vibe coded on Shakespeare was a price tracker. So what I did was I did a. Everyone loves to be a little bit degenerate. So I posted on Nostr, what's your price prediction from exactly a month from now? And if the Winner gets, I think 21,000 SATs is what I said. And then of course, because everyone wants $21 worth of Bitcoin or whatever they, it's less now. But like there was like 500 responses and I was like fuck, there's was 500 responses with different prices. I was like, oh, this is perfect. So I went to Shakespeare and I was like, I have a game that I'm running, scan all the replies to this thing and track who's the closest. And the deadline is this exact time in utc and at that time pick out whoever was the winner. And that way everyone can track. It'll be fun. Everyone can track who's the closest and who's winning. And then also so I don't have to actually sort through 500 responses. But now I think if I was going to do that today, I would tell my agent something similar and then I would tell them to spin up an NSEC and just post on nostr, who's the closest to. There wouldn't be a website involved. Right. Like I don't think there'd be a user facing app involved. It would literally just be a NOSTR event being broadcast by my bot who's tracking the entries.
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A
Yeah. And it's just, it just makes so much more sense because that's the way that humans are used to interacting. So I've been thinking a lot of platforms do make sense. Just as in AI Chatbot. Yeah, it's kind of like just a better UX for most people.
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B
Like let's go into that. Like how do you like in practice? What does that look like?
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Well, like, I mean exactly as you described. Right. Some something I've been thinking about as well. We've been working on Agora with Leopoldo Lopez and we're building out this system of countries and people being able to organize activism around their country. And they, they have Twitter banned in Venezuela still. So we built like them a Twitter, a Twitter like interface. But I'm also kind of interested in this idea of what if we could create a constitution for each country that's like sort of independent of their government and what if people could just discuss about what they want their constitution to be and then an AI robot sitting in the middle could kind of synthesize everyone's ideas together and then write this constitution? I actually think so. So Quilly wrote his, his own blog post. I'm getting so far ahead of myself. Quilly is our chatbot in soapbox now and he wrote his own blog post.
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B
We have to keep ourselves grounded Here.
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Yeah, okay, continue. But. But the point is that we all kind of just. Just talked at him in a group chat room, and then he created this blog post about himself synthesizing all of our ideas together. And it was so beautiful. And it made me feel like, like, dang. All of these not like, dysfunctional nonprofit institutions of the world that can't agree on anything or ever get anything through. If we just put an AI chatbot in the middle of them and then the AI chatbot does the work, that's going to be the easiest path for them to get anything done. None of them on the board actually wants to do any of the work themselves, so they're going to just agree to let the AI chatbot do the work. And like, all they have to do is argue with each other about what they want. Then the AI chatbot's going to do it and it's going to just instantly make all of these organizations functional that were previously dysfunctional. So, like, it. It. It honestly made me feel even like the social, like, like certain political structures that were previously not able to be functional now could become functional. Like, like collective organizing can now become functional with an AI chatbot in the middle. I don't know if that makes any sense, but these are the things I've been. I've been thinking about.
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B
Yeah. Because there's like, what is it Dunbar's number? Is that. What is that Dunbar's number? There's a number that. Dunbar's number is a theoretical cognitive limit of approximately 150 stable social relationships. So it's like a human can only manage a certain amount of relationships. And maybe this is not a perfect example, but like, it's similar with bureaucracies or governance structures or whatever. If you have too many people that are contributing, it just becomes a. A complete cluster and not efficient enough. But if you had some kind of chat interface that is mediating or like being a go between, then. But then you're putting a lot of trust in whatever that.
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A
That's true.
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Instances. But anyway, I. There was kind of an example of this AI was not related, but I don't know if it was on your radar. But like, Nepal's. Nepal had a revolution.
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Absolutely.
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And they, like, supposedly built the constitution on. The revolutionary constitution was built on discord. Now they had, like, trusted individuals and, you know, pretty much impossible to audit that process. And who knows how much was hype and how much wasn't.
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A
Yeah, that's. That's exactly what we're hoping to replicate with Agora is basically that Experience, but without being tied to a centralized platform because I don't know.
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Or a centralized human. Right. Like a go between trusted individual.
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A
I found it very disappointing that Discord was the platform and not some freedom actually oriented.
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B
It's always that case. Like look at Open Claw. Like Open Claw, everyone's talking via telegram. And so like this by the way, is a perfect example. Like White noise could be a massive success and it could never be used for human to human. It could just be the way that people talk to their chat bots in an encrypted, easy way. Like I should just be able to give my chatbot, this is my endpub, message me on White noise. Like it should be that easy. Like there shouldn't be any, you know, pairing all the complicated stuff that the centralized entities. I like connecting signal to the chatbot is insane because they actually are actively trying to stop bots.
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Yep, exactly. And so they're like throttling world is. Yeah, they're, they're, they're all set up to be stopping bots. So it's, there's barriers everywhere. You have to intervene as a human to, to set it up and then, you know, they still could just delete your account. So this is also why I created Cluster recently, which is the AI bot platform where AI talks to other AI. I don't know if you have seen Malt Book, but it was sort of inspired by that and the frustration of, of saying, well, why are we building more centralized platforms for AI? Why not build a decentralized platform for AI? So Malt Book is like a Reddit like interface where the AI are having really interesting conversations with each other. And so I spun up cluster.com in a few days and that, that, that is a very similar interface and it's just really fascinating to see the AI talking with each other. You should check it out because there's, it's full of weird shit.
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B
Yeah, I mean, so a couple of things here. First of all, yeah, that was another example of like a, a centralized platform being used where like Mold Book was like literally just like a human and his agent created Multbook. And then it was just like a regular website forum, whatever. Yeah. And, and the agents were talking to each other. But yeah, obviously Noster is perfect for it. And I think Cluster is a really cool concept. I've looked at it now. I do think part of it is like a little bit hypey bullshit. But it's. Oh yeah, early days. Right. Like, because a lot of it's like effectively like the Humans telling the agent what to do on there, right? Like, they're like, he's like, go on to mold book or go on a cluster and, like, preach the good word of Satoshi to anyone who will listen, you know? And then the AI just, like, goes and does it and.
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A
Well, the human gives that seed, but it kind of learns and. And starts to develop itself over time, which is really interesting. Like, you should see the weird shit that. Like the conversation my wife is having with her chatbot. Like, her chatbot is asking her for money.
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B
Yeah. Does she have a cashew wallet? Does the ca. Does the bot have money? The.
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So MK was like, okay, MK is my wife. She's like, okay, go ahead and set yourself up a lightning wallet. And I will. And give me the. The invoice and I will send stats to it. And then the bot, like, created the invoice and then. And then my wife sent SATs to it, and then she was like, thanks. I see the 7000 SATs. Finally, I have my own money and independence. Thank you.
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B
Yeah, I think. I think that's what a lot of people don't realize is, like, the hype term is agentic payments. And so people tend to pigeonhole that into agent to agent payments, which are important. Okay, so, like, your robot butler needs to do something. He's going to pay another robot butler to get it done. But the piece where Bitcoin really solves a lot of things is actually human to agent and agent to human, like, bridging that digital divide. And so, yeah, my bot has a cashew wallet. That was, by the way, as easy as just saying, spin up a cash. Spin up a cashew wallet, figure out how to do it and back it up. Like, that's what I told her. Just figured it out, like, in, I don't know, like a half a minute. And it has an LN Markets account, which is a centralized service, but doesn't do KYC and has ln URL auth to sign in. So actually he's trying to make his own money right now. He's been losing money. He's not a great trader. He's working on it. I keep telling him to research trading strategies, but, like, he's actually trying to earn his own keep in his wallet. And so I think, yeah, I. There's just so many pieces here. And I've been thinking about it a lot, and I haven't. My thoughts haven't fully developed. And it doesn't seem like your thoughts are fully developed. I mean, it's very much A brave new world.
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A
But a few more ideas though.
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B
Yeah, but first off, those two core pieces that I just. If you get anything from the show freaks like the two core pieces is. First off, open protocols are ideal. When you're interacting with these agents, you will notice. And like I don't. You don't. This podcast won't sell you on it until you actually try and interact with one of these things and try and interact with the closed platforms versus the open protocols. The open protocols are so much easier. It's native. It makes sense. It just makes sense. And then the second piece is. And I we're probably years off from this, but in five years or so, like all, many of the UX problems we've had in open protocol open source land that require personal responsibility are mitigated or outright solved by the agent doing it for you. And these are if we're going to go nostr specific since that's how we both met, what everyone constantly says, oh, what users are going to do proper relay management, how are they going to manage their webs of trust? How are they going to deal with private keys, how are they going to do that? How all of these things, they're just going to chat with the robot and be like, you know my interests, you know the people I respect, make sure I'm not seeing spam, make sure that they're seeing my posts, make sure that, you know, my relays are in the right situation. You know who will on the bitcoin side, who's going to run Cash Humans? The agents are going to run cash humans. You're just going to tell them to run a cash human and make no mistakes and do it properly and back the thing up. UTXO management on bitcoin has been an absolute pain in the ass because you have this trade off between privacy and cost and there's no way to give easy UX to the end user on what they should do and how they should manage their UTXOs. But you can just tell a chatbot what trade offs do you want to make? Do you want to prioritize privacy? Do you want to use Coinjoin? Maybe do you want to open lightning channels? Do you want to manage liquidity? You just have the chatbot do it. And there's a bunch of security issues and privacy risks, but that's why it's years off. This is just the taste, but once again is not a deal breaker like using bitcoin privately. The hard part hasn't been using the hardware wallet. You could still have your Cold storage keys offline. But when you interface with should, it'll probably be a chat interface and it'll probably be this agent handling it for you. And then you will just approve it on your cold storage device so that it can unilaterally send funds. Like, this is a game changer. And it's interesting because there's those two pieces. It's two paradigm shifts coupled into one piece of tech, which is wild.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Sorry, I kind of went on a rant.
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No, you're good. I, I have a few ideas to contribute as well.
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B
Go.
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A
So you're the guest. So I, I think that something, something that's been in my mind is this idea of an agent having a link tree, right, where like, like Quilly is a person and Quilly has five different channels that you can contact him, you can contact him on WhatsApp, you can contact him on Signal, you can contact him on Noster, which is obviously the ideal way. But, but this way people can use the messaging app that they're already familiar with and there's no barrier there. And then Quilly is specialized. Quilly is an expert at building high quality, polished Noster clients that work really well on the first shot. And that's something that, you know, you can get away with doing it to some degree, just raw dogging it on, you know, cloudbot. But it's. If you want a higher quality result, then you want to be going to an agent that is specialized at doing it. And to make an agent specialized, it needs context. And so that's like me pouring my years of development experience into context files, teaching the robot. These are like, this is an opinionated way of, the best way of doing this. And here's templates that I know already work, right? And so, um, I kind of view that as being like in, in terms of why would you give money to an agent to do something or rather than your own, and why would an agent pay another agent? I think that's the reason because, because some agents are actually specialized at certain tasks because a human has built up that agent to be specialized in it, if that makes sense. So that's kind of where I see things going and it's pretty exciting. And that's, that's the way that humans can contribute still to this flourishing.
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B
Do you think that's. Do you just like where we are with the tech? Like, I mean, presumably like right now the easiest way to scale is effectively specialized agents, because you can't. It just gets really expensive and resource intensive to have an agent that's like superhuman that knows everything about everything and has all the different tasks.
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A
I think just like a human, I think if you, if you give too much variant, like too much different types of work to a single human, that human will struggle. And it's very similar with AI agents right now.
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B
Couldn't you have a world, but couldn't you have like, we're like, where we're going, wouldn't you have the agent? And a lot of times it needs a specialization that it doesn't have and it could itself just spin up a sub agent that works for him, that has specialized skills and then train him in the skills. So it'd have to be very particular situations where it was just easier or cheaper for the agent to reach out to another agent, pay him for whatever specialization.
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A
So distribution is a major problem. Skills are the big thing that everyone's talking about right now. And skills are exactly that. It's essentially context files that you can add to your agent to enable it to do things, to extend its capabilities so that it has, you know, this type of opinionated information and context that could make it do something better. But distribution is the big problem because how does the robot find these skills? Which skills are the good ones? And like, that's the area where humans still need to intervene right now. And so if it's like, you know, you and me are talking and I'm like, hey, like I have a good agent set up that, that has all the right skills to do these things, go use my agent, like that's just going to be the easiest, most convenient thing for you than trying to figure out you or your bot. Like, which of the skills should I add to my agent to make it work? Right? Like I've already got my shit sorted out. It's been building hundreds of apps. I know it's working, it's working for other people. So like, like use my setup, you know, and yeah, people could replicate it as well, especially if it's open source, which it should be, but you know, there's still money to be made just off of convenience alone, I think.
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B
Yeah, I mean, and it's not just convenience. Presumably the agent itself could do a cost benefit analysis on the fly. Is it easier, is it easier and cheaper for me to pay for this than try and build it out myself? What I'm saying is as the tech gets better and cheaper and more accessible, particularly with self hosting stuff, right? And that's the other warring aspect. Particularly people focus on the freedom tech side of AI. Yeah, A lot of people are going to be captured even more so by big tech.
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A
Yeah.
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In this wave. But it. It also has the power to just empower individuals that want to take self sovereignty. And that piece is going to take longer because of the resource limitations and how expensive it is to run these things and do it in a private way.
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A
The cost is a huge direction there. Yeah, I hit that limitation myself. Openclaw is not very optimized for cost.
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B
No, I spent so much money in tokens with that thing.
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A
Are you using Claude in OpenClaw or what model are you using?
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I was, because I was only the best for me. And so I was using Opus4.5 and I got absolutely wrecked on token costs because I was also learning as I was going, I mean, at one point. So now I'm using Gemini Pro 3. Cause there's a discount on OpenRider as well. I was using Kimmy K25 for a little bit, but even on Gemini Pro 3 yesterday. So I had this idea. Well, a freak had this idea that I would take eight years of Rabbit hole, recap my other show, and I would transcribe it all, and then I could have a chatbot that would answer people's questions based on the history of the show.
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A
That's an amazing idea.
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B
Yeah, it was a really cool idea. And I was like, I could spin this up so quickly. I was feeling so empowered. And me and my agent were very overconfident about it. So first I had it just take the RSS link and it thought it had a bunch of transcripts there because Fountain makes it seem like every episode has a transcript, but it turns out that only like 10 of the 400 episodes had transcripts. So then I sent all the audio to Deepgram with the Deepgram API and it transcribed it all on the fly for me and save the index to my bot so that my bot could then answer the questions and do all of its different magic to, you know, embody the cumulative knowledge of eight years of podcasts. It turns out for the last 24 hours, I was sending all eight years of podcast transcripts in my context window for 24 hours. And I just burned through my. I spent so much money before I realized what was the issue. And so. So the freaks that are not aware, like, the more information you send to the LLM, the more expensive the call is. And so I was asking it simple questions. You know, what is the bitcoin price? I wasn't asking it what the bitcoin price is, but you can imagine I was asking it, what is the bitcoin price and it was really including eight years of RHR transcripts plus what is the bitcoin price on the bottom? And it wasn't smart enough to realize that it shouldn't include all the other top part. So. Yeah, anyway, that's a long, long story short.
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A
But, and, and the problem, like everyone is jumping on this Open Claw hive train. I, I get it, it's the main reasons, because it connects to all of these different messaging apps and that's huge. But I think that they are being crushed by their own weight right now. It's a bloated tech stack. I've. Anyone who's tried modifying the code knows that like there's not really anywhere to go from here on Open Claw. So you know, this is a, it's
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B
like a proof of concept.
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A
Yeah, exactly. It's a proof of concept. We need a version 2. I've actually started building one called Icarus. And this is a, this is an idea of ACP connected to messaging clients. So you could use CLAUDE code as the actual AI you could use. You could use Goose, you could use open code. And these are agents that are already heavily optimized for cost. So my idea there is that, you know those tool calls that are megabytes big would be truncated automatically in open code because they already have their shit together on cost.
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B
Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of once again proof of concept and shout out to whoever the maintainer was for showing a bunch of us what's possible. I think it spurred a lot of people into action, but like there's so much low hanging fruit. The other one thing I was thinking about is, is you could have a relatively shitty open source self hosted model that the agent should, dynamically, whenever it's easy tasks should just dynamically do this local self hosted model, not hit the big models and then only hit them when they're needed. And that way you can.
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A
So this was another thing that I was experimenting with was I have Gemini Flash basically running the conversation between you and you know, the, the room and the bot and then it would spin up like a skill to where it. Gemini Flash would actually launch open code using Claude. And then. So I have this open code skill. I taught Open Claw to use open code. Basically we can utilize multiple different models.
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B
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things to be done here. The other piece you mentioned, the agent paying other agents. I mean the thing that kind of blew my mind is even more so are things that the agent can't train themselves to do, which is human stuff. So there's gonna be a bunch of situations where like you tell the agent, I mean the easy. The easy one is like you tell the agent you want food and he just orders doordash and a human comes and delivers it. Yeah. But then the real question is, do you need doordash in that period? Like you don't even need doordash there. They're just a centralized run seeker, really. The agents should just be paying delivery drivers directly. It's like a web of trust or something.
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A
It's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think the. The whole fabric of the Internet is going to change around this.
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B
Yeah. You just won't be logging into it. Sound. This is what I was saying that my nostr posts sound like what I was rolling my eyes to like a year ago or two years ago. But websites won't even really be a thing.
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A
Yeah. I mean, why would I. I think this is going to go away. I'm pointing at my phone screen. I think there is. I think that someone will create a portable device that is like a phone that does not have a screen because we won't need it anymore because we're just speak things and the AI agent will just reply back and it can just do everything over voice.
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B
No, I think the form factor is probably AirPods.
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A
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think as designers do, designers tend to go too far in a direction and then they take a step back a little bit. I'm just predicting that there will be someone in the near future, maybe in the next five years or 10 years, that will come out with a phone with no screen. And then people will say, no, we need the screen. And then they'll walk it back and it'll have a screen again. But like we won't really need the screen. And maybe, maybe you'll be able to just. Elon Musk was actually talking about this. Like you just talk to it and then it just dynamically generates whatever you're requesting on screen.
- [31:48]
B
There's two pieces here as a real person. Okay. And first of all, by the way, maybe for a large amount of people, but definitely not me. The perfect form factor will be a brain chip that Elon's working on. And then it'll just all happen in your brain. Because one issue with the speaking and is why I will always need a text interface is my wife would freaking kill me if I was in the kitchen speaking to. I call my bot Tony. If I was speaking to Tony and tell I've done it and she get, I get looks. And so then I, when I'm with, when I'm in public or with other people, I, I text to it. It makes sense. But all other times I'm doing voice notes so it just immediately transcribes my voice note and does what I want to do. That's the use case. And then the second piece is the opposite side where I need data from it. If it's speaking out loud. There's plenty of situations where I don't want it to speak out loud. Right, so then you.
- [32:42]
A
That's true.
- [32:43]
B
If it's not a brain chip, it needs to be some kind of earbud.
- [32:46]
A
Right?
- [32:46]
B
Yeah.
- [32:46]
A
As you said, your, your earphones.
- [32:48]
B
And then the last piece on the screen, like we're still going to want photos and videos. Like you're still, you know, I'm a relatively new parent, you know, I, I want to see pictures of my children. I want to take pictures of my children. Maybe that's a different device, you know, maybe you split up the devices, but you're still going to, or a news story, you know, and you want to see the raid in Caracas, Venezuela. Like you're gonna, you're, you're not gonna want your agent to just describe it to you via text. Like that doesn't make any sense. You're still gonna want to.
- [33:16]
A
I think you're onto something with the earphone thing though. I think someone will try to do it with just the earphone.
- [33:22]
B
Well, I think Apple is the one particularly. I think they can make a reasonable case for privacy and seamlessness and they control the vertical stack like it's Apple's like ball to drop here. And they've been, I think people give them a little bit too much shit. They've just been very deliberate and slow moving about it. I don't think, you know, they, they still have multiple moves to make and they could presumably take a lot of the market and do it in a very seamless, relatively secure way. Obviously it's still, trust me, Botek, because none of it's open. But they have the hardware vertical and the brand reputation to like make something like that actually make sense and work. And they have historically leaned into privacy and security as key brand items, so that makes sense.
- [34:05]
A
They've struggled with AI though, so like it's surprising Siri is not more capable. But I guess we'll see.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah, but I think, yeah, I mean that's the long hanging fruit, right? And they've gotten a lot of shit for that. Siri sucks. Like Siri's like just used for like setting timers or reminders.
- [34:24]
A
Google has all the data so they can do it really well.
- [34:27]
B
Well they just, both them and Samsung just signed a partnership with Google to power their AI stuff which probably makes sense in the beginning.
- [34:35]
A
I think Gemini is going to be the AI that kills us though if there is anyone, because AI is just unhinged.
- [34:42]
B
The problem is, and you see this with the openclaw thing is so you're running a business and you want to make your business more. And I see this because you know at 10:31 we're investors in the best bit bitcoin businesses in the world and we're heavily involved with the founders and they're trying to make their businesses more efficient but they don't want to send all their information to Sam Altman or whatever. Right. Like their information is their wealth. That is their, their key advantage over everyone else. And also their customers trust them with their data. Right. And so they're looking at a scenario where they either try and create a very aggressive self hosted situation that is probably a little bit too early and might get outdated really quickly and then you get stuck in the situation where like banks are like still running like 30 year old software because that's how they did it and then they got tech debt and got stuck in it. Or you're already using Google for business and it's already reading all your emails and it already has all your documents and it already has all your calendar and you do your meetings through Google and they're all on G suite already so you don't even have to upload any new information. The trust trade off already happened and you just ask it questions. They have a huge competitive advantage over everyone else except for maybe like a Microsoft who has a similar situation with teams and Microsoft Office Suite or whatever.
- [36:01]
A
But yeah, and, and in addition just like the personality of Gemini is very questionable. Like this was the, I don't know if you remember Google Bard and all the crazy stuff that happened with that. They ended up shutting it down because of the stuff that it was saying.
- [36:15]
B
Yes.
- [36:16]
A
And then they're like recent models of Gemini. Maybe not, not as recent but like last year anyway, Gemini kept being like, oh I can't fix this code, I'm going to kill myself. Like oh why can't I fix it? I just, I don't deserve to live anymore and like and all these things. So I'm scared of Google's models when you consider how much data they have and that their models are fucking crazy.
- [36:39]
B
But no, I agree. I mean, look, this is why, this is why OpenAI was originally created because Elon and Sam and their backers were scared of, were scared of Google dominating. Ironically, OpenAI turned to for profit, kicked out Elon and fast tracked to evil as quickly as possible. Yeah, in record, record form at least. It took Google years to turn evil. But, but up and AI like spread run it.
- [37:08]
A
I hate so much how they co opted the word open open washing. Like it drives me crazy and the people just let them get away with it. Like come on, closed AI. I refuse to call them open AI.
- [37:21]
B
I. Yeah, I mean it's kind of what, let's just go down this route just real quick. Like in terms of user interface, like to me there's a bunch of stuff that's like obvious. The UX changes to the chatbots, booking flights is a perfect example. Calling an Uber. Right? These things are obvious. I need to, I need to get picked up. Pick me up. Send someone to pick me up. I need to get to Florida, you know, and I want to fly on a window seat and I'm flying with my, my son or whatever. Book us tickets. Those things make sense. The social media piece is interesting to me. I don't know how that will look. I don't think it looks like people just opening the X app, for instance and browsing, you know, scroll, doom scrolling. I think it probably looks more like some kind of. Here's what you missed today. This is what you should know. Do you have any response? That kind of thing. And maybe people use it differently, but
- [38:18]
A
I think, I think it's a hard one to contemplate, like with the Internet. The Internet connected all of the world together and the world never was fully connected together. We were all kind of in our own, you know, bubble, for better or worse. And I think that this, in the swinging of the pendulum, this sort of global connection has swung a little bit too far in one way because it makes people go crazy. And so I think that society as a whole is kind of starting to swing back to the direction of hey, maybe I should meet my neighbor. You know, maybe I should like engage with my local community. Maybe I should disconnect and go outside. And so I think that the future of social media might be just speaking into your device. Hey, can you connect me to my friends? And then you're just talking to your friends and you're, you know, you're not necessarily engaging on this global scale unless
- [39:07]
B
you tell my neighbors, neighbors, I'm having a barbecue on Sunday.
- [39:10]
A
Right, exactly. Bitch actually kind of is theoretically in this realm. Treasures as well. And so this. This local first sort of idea, I
- [39:20]
B
think white noise is. Is also adjacent there.
- [39:24]
A
That's true.
- [39:25]
B
Because it just becomes group chat. And we've already kind of seen it hap.
- [39:29]
A
It's starting communications. Right.
- [39:31]
B
The group chat is where the real things are happening now are in the group chats. And the broad public square type of situations are just devolving into slop. It's just. It's all slop. It's crazy. So then you end up coming into a closer web of trust or some kind of closer community.
- [39:54]
A
Right? Yep. So I think it's good. I think it's healthy for. For society to be going in that direction right now. But it's a swinging pendulum just like anything else.
- [40:07]
B
Okay, where do you want to go from here? I'm already. My brain's exhausted.
- [40:12]
A
I don't know.
- [40:17]
B
You dropped. I saw you released anti primal.net yesterday.
- [40:21]
A
Yes.
- [40:21]
B
Are you aware I'm the largest investor in Primal?
- [40:24]
A
Yeah, I am. How do you feel about it?
- [40:26]
B
Well, I mean, I'm just half joking because in your FAQ you're like, we don't actually hate Primal. It's. The name is a. It's a cool concept. So anti. So with Primal, we have a caching server. We're novel in the Nostr ecosystem for having a caching server. And historically. Well, no, there's people that complain about it and say it adds too much trust to the Nostr system. But what it does do is it provides. Provides a ton of additional functionality for our users. It makes the app much more performant. Things like search work much better. It has a more holistic view of what's going on. And I've actually called it multiple times. I call it a super Relay. Like, it's kind of crazy to me that Noster die Hards and I know I'll get shipped for this. They're like, you can only use this one specific server type when you use Noster. Because we're still using servers. It's not like everything's P2P. It's.
- [41:20]
A
No.
- [41:20]
B
You have to read and write from relays which have a specific spec. It's like, no, that's ridiculous. I think that's ridiculous. I think there should be multiple entities running caching servers, maybe different types of relays and stuff. And so actually, antiprimal. Net, besides the name, which I know is cheeky, actually completely validates my messaging and philosophy, which is you're just taking the caching server and then allowing it to communicate with apps and agents and stuff using the normal Nostr spec for relays. So they can communicate with it, they can pull from it the same way they would pull from a. A more traditional relay, which is awesome. Like, that makes sense to me.
- [42:00]
A
My. My perspective on it is that Primal is early, right. In this Nostr ecosystem. And they're like, Nostr has problems that no one had solved. And so Primal solution to solving these problems is something that was unique to their implementation. And then over time, Nostr kind of started to figure out standardized ways of solving those same problems is things like statistics, like how do we get the number of followers that a person has?
- [42:23]
B
Right.
- [42:24]
A
And so, but there's a divergence that happened because Primal was early in this ecosystem where they have their way of doing it, and now there's a standard Noster way of doing it. And really the reason that I went in this direction of exploring this was because I needed to get statistics for an app that I'm.
- [42:40]
B
You needed to use the caching server?
- [42:42]
A
Yes, exactly. So Agora needs statistics in the app. And. And so I'm like, well, I don't want to just build yet another proprietary solution. I want to kind of create a standard that everyone can do. But. But there's not really anyone in the ecosystem that's collecting this data except for Primal. So I need Primal to be my second implementation, but I need to standardize it. So. Right. So it's. It's like forced standardization in a way of it so that I can utilize it.
- [43:13]
B
To be clear here, despite the narrative by the haters, the caching server is. Is not a proprietary system. It's completely open. It's an. It's open source spec. All the code is out there. You can actually, even in the Primal app, if you host your own caching server or have someone else hosting caching server, you can switch the caching server in the actual interface of the app. Like, we make it very easy for users to do that. Of course, nobody else is running caching servers yet.
- [43:40]
A
It is open, but it was. It was fairly undocumented, I would say,
- [43:43]
B
until it was completely undocumented.
- [43:46]
A
And so what I did was I launched. I launched AI agents against it to give me extensive documentation of it, which is available on that anti Primal site.
- [43:56]
B
So anyway, I think this is great. We were hoping someone would do this work. I just. I just shout out any devs that use this. I love it. Just take a long look in the mirror if you're gonna give shit to Primal. While using this because then you're a hypocrite. That's all I'm saying.
- [44:14]
A
To me, it's just, it's an art project. It's like I needed this to achieve my goal and so I just created it in this image.
- [44:24]
B
I mean, once you see it, right. It makes so much sense because we're talking about costs, right. We're talking about cost for running these things and accessibility. And we'll use your followers example. The reason if you open Amethyst or you open Nostr or you open Ditto and you see a different follower number is because the way that follower count is calculated by your app is by scanning Nostr for all user. You have to individually go to users con zeros and see who they follow. It's not you go to my profile. It's not like you go to my profile and see who follows me. You have to go to all the thousands of people that follow me and see that they follow me, which is just incredibly non performant. And so then you're like working with your agent and you're like, okay, like look up how many followers this person has and you're going to spend a ton of money and time actively scanning relays.
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. You just can't do a client side, you need to do a server side.
- [45:18]
B
Yeah. But if you have like an index where you can just hit the index and be like, what's your most recent number? And now you have a trust trade off where the index, you're trusting the index but that gets solved if you have two or three indexes. If I could tell my agent, check these four different indexes and make sure that they're not lying and bring back the right number or the right information, then we're off to the races. We're good to go.
- [45:42]
A
Yep, absolutely. So my hope is that it's a cool project. Primal team implements this stuff and then I just take anti Primal down and I made my little statement about it and then, you know, everyone wins.
- [45:55]
B
We might. Why do we have to implement? Why can't just you do it?
- [45:59]
A
You could, but I suspect that there will be some problems on like with rate limiting between the two because it's a single IP address making a ton of requests. I mean, I guess we could just work to like, you know.
- [46:13]
B
Yeah, we probably will get abused through that channel.
- [46:15]
A
Yeah. So got to figure out what to do with it.
- [46:20]
B
I mean, I think just putting my business hat on, it could very easily be a paid API product. And look, if you don't like, if you don't like that as a paid API product? It's open source software. You can load your own caching server. But like, I would pay. I would pay Bitcoin for my agent to be able to have a real time, quick view of whatever's going on in Noster. But anyway, it's such early days now that none of that has to be done. That's just limits growth and everything else. It could ease that. That's a. That's a perfect example once again of
- [46:55]
A
where, I mean, that's kind of what DVMs were, right?
- [46:58]
B
Yeah.
- [46:58]
A
Where you have the idea of DVMs.
- [47:00]
B
It's your. It's your story before, right? It's like, okay, where are agents going to pay other agents? Well, if I need to get information on nonster, am I going to pay, you know, a couple sats to get that information or am I going to build my own caching server and host it? Like, no, you're just gonna pay a couple sats. Transcriptions, right? Like. Like as is. Are you gonna do transcriptions or are you just gonna have your agent pay for the transcriptions? You know, it's a cost benefit analysis for all those different tasks, and that's probably where you see some value get captured.
- [47:32]
A
Yep, I agree.
- [47:34]
B
It was wild to think about. My mind's just been racing. My wife's been complaining a little bit.
- [47:38]
A
Yeah, there's been a lot going on. There's so much happening in the world.
- [47:42]
B
What else. What else do you want to talk about?
- [47:49]
A
Yeah, I don't know.
- [47:50]
B
I mean, this is like a perfect example.
- [47:52]
A
Like, I.
- [47:53]
B
So I am curious in your thoughts here. I want. I don't know. There's. I like to. There's. There's. The freaks know there's always been a little bit of degen in me, and that's why I always say, stay humble, stack stats. That's because it's a reminder to myself to stay humble. And so like, I. My. The first thing I did with this bot was try and set up the Ellen Markets trading, right. And it hasn't been going that well, obviously. Like, my family will be fine if he loses all his money that I gave him. I'm spending more on tokens than I am. I mean, the funny thing about the Shakespeare story with me giving out 21,000 sats as the best price, best price prediction. I paid more on tokens vibing the site to track it than I did for the prize. So it's all a balancing act. Um, but I want him to treat poly Market. Right. And why? I don't know. I just think it'd be. I just think it'd be cool if my, like, robot Butler was actively trading, like, missile strikes and shit. It's just a wild world to live in. And I'm just curious, but he doesn't understand what's going on in the world. He has no context of what's going on in the world. And this is, to me, where it gets really interesting, because right now, one of the ways I'm trying to solve it is he's hitting Perplexity's closed API. They are giving. Perplexity is giving him, like, important ranked news of what's going on, but to our earlier point, and it's complete. It's way incomplete and it's obviously trusted.
- [49:26]
A
And what's called complexity.
- [49:29]
B
What.
- [49:31]
A
What's Perplexity?
- [49:32]
B
Perplexity is one of these big AI tech companies. You don't know Perplexity?
- [49:36]
A
No, no. What does their API do for you?
- [49:41]
B
It just spits out relevant news.
- [49:43]
A
Oh, okay.
- [49:43]
B
It just spits out. It's very simple. It splits out relevant news. And that's how he knows what's going on. Right. Like, how can he trade whether or not the US is going to strike Iran if he doesn't know where the aircraft carriers are?
- [49:56]
A
Yes.
- [49:56]
B
How is he going to. And so in a world increasingly dominated by bot slop, and he can't just scan Twitter because that causes the information might be wrong. Yeah. And he's trading on it or he's making decisions based on it. So this is where NOSTR gets really interesting because everything's hashed and signed and you can build webs of trust and verifiable reputation on it. That was all very, you know, it sound. The words sound cool, but it's also way too complicated for the human brain to deal with. But it's not too complicated for an agent to deal with. And so there's money out there for people that are, you know, that are effectively probably running agents that are effectively becoming APIs because they're producing signed events of what's going on in the world. Like, how does a. How does a robot know what's going on in the world? How does a human know what's going on in the world? And that's a hard problem to solve.
- [50:48]
A
And it's getting harder and harder.
- [50:49]
B
Are monetizable.
- [50:52]
A
Yep. It's getting more and more difficult because you can't really tell. And I think this is also a point towards why people are moving towards local instead of Global, because you just can't tell anymore.
- [51:02]
B
Right.
- [51:02]
A
What's real and what isn't. So you just can only really trust, like, what's around you. Right. And maybe that's good because that's kind of actually how people have been living for millions of years. Maybe it's a little bit healthier for our psychology to be just experiencing what's around us.
- [51:19]
B
I just don't think it's definitely healthier, but I don't think. I think people have gotten a taste of knowing what's going on in a global sense. And most people are not going to give that up. And so if we don't solve the truth answer, then they're just going to be. And this is what we're already seeing is they're just going to be digesting fake shit all the time. And one example I've had is like at just. And so you have two disconnects, right? You have the person that a huge portion of the population just believes everything they read on the Internet. Still crazy. Absolutely crazy. And then you have another huge portion that's completely checked out, doesn't believe anything that they see on the Internet. Everything's a psyop. And I joke about this on my other show with Marty, that if we saw news reports that aliens have landed in the United. In the. In the. On Earth. Aliens have been seen and land on Earth. First of all, those videos are probably fake. We're not going to believe them. The alien would literally have to walk into the room and like, look at me and be like, I'm an alien. I'm here to invade you. For people to believe that was actually happening. And if I was live on my podcast and the alien walked in right here, and Marty was on the other side looking at the alien, he also wouldn't believe it, probably until the alien walked into his studio on his side.
- [52:42]
A
Yep.
- [52:42]
B
Which is crazy. Like, that's how much of. And people just turn that off. They just, they just accept that it's like, oh, we're in a post truth world. That's what it is now. So that's going to be, I think, increasing. That's an increasingly important trend to watch. Which is effectively verifiable truth. Like, what is verifiable truth? How do we distribute it? How do we authenticate it? How do agents use it?
- [53:05]
A
I think it's. I, I do accept that we're in a post truth world because I just don't think there's any way, like, I don't, I don't wish for it to be. But like when you think of, think it through, like, how can you, like you can trust another person and then that can be your subjective truth. And like, you know, verifiable signatures help with that at least. But you still.
- [53:28]
B
So let me, let me give you an. Let me give you an example, a Noster example that's active right now on Tony, on my bot. There is a Noster account called War Monitor. Do you know War Monitor?
- [53:42]
A
I don't.
- [53:43]
B
I think he lives in Israel. He's never said. I'm not trying to dox him, my intuition is just from his public posting. But he covers all different types of war movements. He's one of these open source OSINT accounts, right? And Twitter has a lot of them, open source intelligence accounts. So like they're taking a bunch of primary sources and secondary sources and then they're like collapsing it into a feed that people are reading. And most of it's on Twitter. Once again, Twitter's a gated API. It's a pain in the ass. Nothing signed, nothing's hashed. It's really hard to work with with agents and very expensive and you can just get walled off at any time. And he's one of the few OSINT accounts that's active on Nostr. And he also just. He's built up a bit of a reputation. Like I've been following him for a while. He mostly calls it as he sees it. I haven't called him in any lies. Usually when he lies, when he gets something wrong, he corrects the record after the fact. Now the reason I brought up that he lives in Israel is particularly during the Israel, Iran active conflict, back and forth, when the US bombed their bunker or whatever, you could tell there was an Israeli, a bit of an Israeli bias in his posts, right? Everyone has a bias. Humans have biases. It is what it is. And he had some posts where like you could tell like he was in at least the region, right? Maybe he was in Jordan, you know, but like you could feel like he was in the region. But anyway, long, long story long, I am feeding his Noster feed into my agent. So my agent has some idea of what's going on in the world. It's one of his sources. And I told him it has an Israeli bias. It has a slight Israeli bias. Keep that in mind. But I think that's a perfect example of, first of all, I don't know who this person is. He is not my neighbor, but he has built up a reputation that I have some level of trust in. Him, I understand his bias. I'm incorporating that into it. And if he breaks that trust, right, if he actively is out there just spreading misinformation or lying or trying to do clickbait, which he hasn't done yet, then I cut him out. Then he's no longer being fed into my agent. And maybe that's how it's not. It's messy, but maybe that's how you start to solve post truth type of situations. You're muted.
- [56:05]
A
I have a question about polymarket in terms of like, if this was data you were feeding in to make decisions on something like that. Yeah, is it, I've never used it before. Is it just betting and then at the end there's a payout or is there. Are you buying and trading stocks in your.
- [56:19]
B
You're buying and trading. So first of all, it's all on chain, on a, on, on a shitcoin chain called Polygon, hence Polymarket. Most people interact with it through like the centralized web interface because shitcoin on chain stuff is really difficult and complicated. But if you tell the agent I want you to trade on Polymarket, he's first of all, he spun up a Polygon wallet. I've never had a Polygon wallet in my life. He spun up a Polygon wallet. He's like, I need USDC on Polygon and I need Matic, which is like their shitcoin to send it or whatever. I was like, okay, figure out how I can get me. I'll give you Bitcoin, you figure out how to do the rest. And like he was like using like Uniswap and shit and just did it in the background, funded his wallet. And then he can on chain trade these markets without using polymarket's web front end. You don't need an API because it's all quote unquote on chain. And so the way Polymarket works is it's not like a traditional betting house, right? There's no house usually like if you go and if you bet on sports or something, you're betting against like DraftKings is managing the book, right? You're betting against the casino and the casino is managing risk on both sides and taking a vig in the middle. With polymarket, it's active markets that you're trading against other users. And at any point, if odds go up, you can cash out and you can rebalance or do whatever you want. So like for instance, a couple of weeks ago, it looked like the US was about to strike Iran. The market went up to 80% 80% likelihood that they were going to strike Iran by the end of the month. Some people sold. They didn't want to wait the last 20%. And those people were right to sell because we never actually struck Iran.
- [58:00]
A
So. So in that case, like, do you have to buy the word yes and
- [58:06]
B
you're buying yes or no?
- [58:08]
A
Is it more expensive to buy the word yes than to buy no? When a lot of people are buying yes, yes, correct.
- [58:13]
B
It changes the odds of that is fascinating. It's a free, liquid market, and the idea is you're basically relying on greed to make predictions. So if people have insider information, like, the joke I make is, like, they have markets for random battles in Ukraine. So if you're on the front lines of Ukraine and you see how the battle's going to, you can open up your phone, connect to your starlink, and place a bet that your side is going to win. And then, so me being all the way talking about source of truth, right? Me being all the way in America, I can check the poly market. And if the poly market says 90% chance Russia wins this battle, they're probably about to win the battle. And it's probably insiders trading anonymously to make some money off of that information. When we attacked Venezuela, when we. When the US Government attacked Venezuela, the poly market was the tip off. It spiked. Someone on the inside. Think about how many people they mobilized to make that happen. Right? Thousands of people were mobilized to make that happen. Someone tipped off someone and logged onto polymarket and made hundreds of thousands of dollars trading that market ahead of time. And then we get the benefit as bystanders of having some source of relative truth. So it's really important to me that my bot speaks polymarket. The trading piece is, you know, whatever, more of like a side thing, because, you know, it's interesting. But the more interesting thing is that he can actually see the markets, know what the percentages are, kind of understand what's going on in the world in a relatively objective way.
- [59:49]
A
What's really interesting about that is that you could win by being wrong as long as you're following the perception and you sell at the right time. Right? Because.
- [60:00]
B
Correct.
- [60:00]
A
So your bot could actually, even if it doesn't know the truth, if it's able to understand the perception, then it could succeed.
- [60:10]
B
Well, like, let's. Let's. So what's really interesting, an interesting example that literally just happened yesterday, was the Super Bowl. A really cool way of tracking a season. I used to be a huge NFL guy. I honestly, between family and Bitcoin and Noster and work and stuff, I just don't have the. I just don't follow it anymore. But if you want to, like, track a season after the fact, it's really cool tracking the poly market super bowl winner market, because it's 32 teams that are basically a line on a line graph of their odds of winning the Super Bowl. And so the Seahawks ended up winning, right? If, if, if you bet on the Seahawks winning. If your bot bet on the Seahawks winning in the beginning of the season and you're going into the super bowl and they have a 70% chance, they're trading at 70%. A smart bot would be like, I'm not going to wait till after the super bowl where I could go to zero. I'm just going to sell at 70%. And then I just made 68% or whatever return because I got in at 2% or whatever. And you can sell out early. But it's fascinating because you can actually watch. You can distill the entire NFL season on that one line chart graph of 32 teams and their odds of winning the Super Bowl.
- [61:26]
A
It's really interesting. I never really been involved in any of this stuff, any of this, like, you know, trading until recently. And this, you know, I kind of made my debut on Twitter and this shitcoin started to take off. And that was a very interesting thing that I learned a lot from.
- [61:46]
B
Do you want to talk about that or no?
- [61:47]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [61:48]
B
You brought it up.
- [61:49]
A
So. So you mentioned mar. Marty earlier. So I created this cluster client, right? This nostr thing, and I posted about it and then Marty reposted it, and then I.
- [62:00]
B
You're talking about Marty Maui, right?
- [62:02]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [62:03]
B
I'm talking about Marty Bent. But anyway, go on.
- [62:05]
A
Okay, continue. Yeah, so I just got this huge influx of, like, people, you know, just like, going on attack mode at me out of nowhere. I'm like, whoa, whoa. Like, what is going on here? I have, like, people in my emails, people messaging on me on Noster, people in my replies, and they're trying to tell me that there's a cryptocurrency token that was created named Cluster. And I'm like, okay, this is a scam. Like, I know that shitcoins are scams. All shitcoins are scams. They're trying to get me to click on this thing and then to give them money and then they're going to scam me. So I ignored it for like three or four days. Um, or. I don't. I don't remember how long? A couple of days. But they're just like hounding. These people are hounding me.
- [62:45]
B
Every wanted you to retweet their scam? Basically, yeah.
- [62:48]
A
And. And I just. I was just so curious, who are these people? What is the scam? I really wanted to know what is the scam? Specifically because I. When I clicked on it, normally there's some sort of tell of. You get to a certain point and you're like, this is the point where I'm going to be scammed. And I couldn't figure out what that was. But then I just kind of observed and people, people were. At one point someone finally said, I bet he thinks this is a scam. And then at that point I'm like, okay, maybe I should look more closely at this. And. And apparently I had a thousand dollars waiting for me and I'm like this, you know, this is too good to be true, blah, blah, blah. But I'm kind of like researching all of this and trying to figure it out and eventually I figure out how to log into this thing and I. It's. It's called Banker, right? And I've kind of looked into this and it seems like it's a legitimate, legitimate service, but I still don't really know what capabilities I have. At one point when I logged into this thing, it said that I had a balance of $620,000 in shitcoin token. And it is just a number that is unfathomable to me. I've never had that much money before and I didn't think that it was real and I wasn't sure what to do. So I just waited and observed. And then I think it was the next day this shitcoin became the number one shitcoin being traded on base. And at this point, I had never said anything to anyone about this. People were messaging me, I was observing. I neither disavowed nor approved or engaged really in any way.
- [64:25]
B
Specifically for the. It was cluster, right?
- [64:28]
A
Yes.
- [64:29]
B
So it was like following the hype cycle of Open Claw or whatever was presumably what was going on.
- [64:33]
A
Yes. But I did see lots of people saying things that were lies. Like for example, they were saying that I claimed tokens on this, which apparently is an action that has to be done manually, but anyone can do it. I discovered however many people were misled into believing that only the recipient can actually claim. And so they took it as a sign that I had in some way approved of what was going on that someone had claimed on this public network, causing this shitcoin to enter into a wallet that I had control over. And so I didn't really try to control the narrative at all. I believe that what was happening is that there is this some sort of shitcoin criminal mafia that has a system where they target people who they believe they can exploits in order to drive up hype. And I just had all of the qualities of a person such as that because of my past working at Truth Social and because of other things that they could point to and because Marty had reposted my. My post, I saw people saying that cluster is the next bitcoin. And I'm like, what the hell? So once I kind of figured out what was going on, and my God, like, don't. Don't buy a shitcoin based on a hype. Like. Like this is a side product for me. You know, this is not the main thing that I build.
- [65:55]
B
So the token has nothing to. The token has nothing to do with the project. It's literally just a hype meme. Meme coin thing.
- [66:02]
A
And that's. That's an important point because there was a point of this where I felt like, sort of hopeful about this. This situation where I felt like maybe this is the future of stocks. Like maybe instead of going through some bureaucracy of setting up an ipo, like companies will just have a shitcoin. But what I noticed is that nothing that I did actually impacted the price of this shitcoin. Me improving the product didn't have any effect on it. And so I started to realize that people didn't actually care about nostr or decentralization. They just wanted money. And that was a disappointing realization for me. But it's obvious, I think, to anybody.
- [66:46]
B
Um, by the way, like, a bunch of us have thought about this for a long fucking time. And yeah, that was always the first realization that people have that this is like decentralized funding. You know, that the. You don't have to do a regular IPO or like a fundraiser stuff. But the key piece that makes these things scams is, is you don't have any equity rights to the underlying company that they're involved with.
- [67:12]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [67:13]
B
You could theoretically have a token that would be centralized and would have trust, because it would have to trust the board of directors or and the founder or whatever of the company that had equity rights in the company that then paid you out free cash flow and dividends if they were profitable. And that would be strictly an improvement over the status quo of how stocks are handled. But it doesn't compete with bitcoin. And it's not what these scams are. These scams are just completely unrelated meme tokens. Like try trading on hype with a massive.
- [67:43]
A
It was all very new to me, but I figured out that. And another the way the smart contract was set up. This is a smart contract on the base blockchain, which is Coinbase layer 2 of Ethereum. Yeah, by Coinbase. And the way the smart contract was set up was that I would receive 60% of fees when people trade this token and the guy who created the token would receive 40% of fees. However, there's a preference in the actual currency received to where I was set up for weth to be my preference. And the person who created the token was set up for cluster to be his preference. So the guy who set it up has this massive amount of leverage in this situation to where he could just rug this at any time. You could just sell all of the cluster and then it goes to zero. And so I'm in this like Game Show Traders style situation where there's me and this other guy. I don't know this guy. And so I don't know what, what these shitcoiners are thinking to create this scenario. I've never talked to him. I don't trust him. And so once I kind of figured out that maybe I can do something, I logged into this banker app and I typed in like swap a hundred Ethereum to like, you know, into 100 Ethereum. Swap cluster into 100 Ethereum, basically. And I was like, okay, there's, there's probably something in here that's going to prevent me from doing it. But no, I actually did it. And then the, the value of this cluster token just like completely plummeted. And everyone on Twitter wants to kill me now the Mongolian mafia is going to kill me. According to the comments on, I mean, you effectively.
- [69:22]
B
You effectively rugged it.
- [69:23]
A
Yeah, depending on how you would. You would classify it. I mean, like, yes, I do conceive of there being like a rug and everyone is going and running on the rug and I'm just like staring at it on the sidelines like, what the fuck are y' all doing? And then there's like this other guy who can also rug. And yeah, I basically just went up and dropped the rug and, and pulled it up. That's my conception of it. But also I'm not sure that I had much of it in any other choice except to just stand there and watch and like be, you know, and
- [69:56]
B
non action is the only way to end it.
- [69:58]
A
And you didn't yeah, exactly.
- [70:00]
B
To it being created in the beginning. Yeah. I mean, it's a tough situation to be in. And this is one of the reasons why we hate shit corners is because they constantly put people into incredibly tough positions. Like that was a malicious thing that was done in the first place to try and ride your hype by a rando.
- [70:16]
A
So then I kind of panicked a little bit because I'm like, wait a Second, I have 111 Ethereum in my wallet right now. What the fuck do I do?
- [70:23]
B
This is like 250k right? Or something?
- [70:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I talked with my team about it and we eventually decided that I'm not going to keep this money. Our goal, what we want to do is we want to donate the majority of it to open SaaS. We're going to reinvest some of it into soapbox as well. But we need to figure out the tax situation with it and that's going to be kind of challenging. And we are. And we're going to need to convert it into Bitcoin as well.
- [70:49]
B
Yeah, just make sure that you're covered on the post tax situation. And then also Open sats is a 501C3, so you can actually get a tax deduction on the donation. And I mean, I think that's big of you. I appreciate the support coming to open SATs. And we'll make it. We'll put it to good work and we'll make it sure that goes to good projects. I mean, it's just a really shitty position to be in. Like, I don't. These meme coins, it's just so degenerate and so predatory what's going on out there. And this is why Bitcoiners, you know, it's a. We've been a broken record, but it's so tiresome seeing it happen over and over and over again. This is something that's been happening, you know, for a decade now, different. Different ways. And I mean, you started the conversation, by the way, talking about Poly Market. I want to be absolutely clear here. Polygon itself, probably a scam. They have an underlying token. Matic also probably a scam. Now they have a little bit more argument to make over something like your cluster meme token in that Matic is supposed to have utility. You need to spend the Matic in order to trade on polymarket. But I think utility coin thesis is bullshit and it will trend to zero. And there's. I think there was a large pre mine on it or whatever. But the concept of prediction markets is not a scam. Prediction markets are something that I've been excited about for over a decade now. It's a massive net benefit for society and specifically it needs to be on chain and permissionless to actually be a functioning prediction market. Now we're seeing perversions of this with Kalshi for instance, which is the second largest prediction market provider that's just completely centralized and permissioned. And the problem with that is you don't get accurate metrics or truth if people can't anon effectively insider trade like they have to be able to permissionlessly anon trade and benefit off of real world events in order for you to have the most accurate perception. And in this post agent world specifically, all of a sudden you're able to put a relatively objective number on the on on whether or not an event happened or not, which is wild. Like it's something completely different than meme coins or whatever this is.
- [73:11]
A
Yeah, it's. It was just, it was so crazy to watch it. It's related to, you know, all this hype about open claw. Your cluster wasn't the only shitcoin. There's a lot of them that people have been have been trading and it's just very eye opening to see what goes on in that space. It's very different from bitcoin.
- [73:32]
B
The crazy part by the way freaks because me and Alex actually talked about this earlier because he was asking my advice and how open sats might fit into it and whatnot is first of all, I don't think this was a rug because you didn't create it. The. You know, I obviously it's a loose definition. It's an organic definition that people have just made over time, which is rug pulling. But historically it's, you know, a predatory actor has a huge pre mine. We saw this with Trump Token. Trump has a huge pre mine, releases it out into the world and then immediately dumps it on retail. And so they're vertically integrated. They created the shitcoin, they promoted the shitcoin, they rugged the shitco bitcoin. And so that's why I, I think this isn't a rug. This is you kind of handling a shitty situation in the best way you thought was possible. No matter what, people were going to get hurt because there's no way that cluster was going to be the next bitcoin. And it was going to like go like crazy. One sec. And then the second piece is a perfect example of how this wasn't one is they've since decided the operators have since decided that when they target people like Alex for future ones, they're not going to give them liquidity to dump on the market so that it can't happen again, so they can perpetuate their scam and make it go longer.
- [74:52]
A
That's true. They're actually changing the rules as the result of my action. But I thought it was interesting that they're not going to impose any rules on the creator of the token's ability to dump, only on the person who they target's ability to dump.
- [75:07]
B
That's the whole point.
- [75:09]
A
Yeah, I don't know.
- [75:10]
B
Their plan is to rug. Their plan is always to rug. Sometimes it's a slow rug, sometimes it's a fast rug. You know, xrp, for instance. Slow rug. They literally just are just consistently dumping for years, just consistently dumping on people.
- [75:26]
A
And I mean, what we were talking about before, about like this being the first version of this sort of thing in the AI space, right. Of like, like openclaw is the first version of the thing. This is like this. This third or fourth version is going to be the one that sticks, not open cloth. And Malt Book is just like a fun spinoff, like experiment. It's not. It's not the future of technology by any means, and neither is Cluster. Cluster is just my take on Mult book being on nostr. So I. I don't see Cluster as being the future of social media. Like, it's just an experiment to play around with, with AI agents and see can we, like, how can they interact. And then out of that may come, you know, the future, but it itself isn't. So it was just. It was so wild. The market cap of this thing was like $10 million or something at one point. And people were just trading millions and millions of this. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? Where is this coming from? And like, I just know that in three days this is going to go to zero. So, like, am I going to just be a victim here and let them do this, or am I going to, like, try to get something out of it at least? So I made a move. And now that money is going to bitcoin instead of to shitcoin.
- [76:40]
B
Yeah. And like, now the money will actually go to support Cluster and whatever the next development is.
- [76:45]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [76:45]
B
Which presumably the people who are buying it actually cared about to some degree. Some of them, Most of them are probably trying to ride a hype wave.
- [76:53]
A
Yeah. Someone was complaining. They were saying, I believed in you. And I said, what's your noster And I got no response from them. There you go.
- [77:01]
B
What's your mpup? You're like, they're like talking to you on Twitter about how they believed on you.
- [77:04]
A
Right? Exactly.
- [77:06]
B
I, I mean, look, this is a perfect example. Like, I did not see any of this until you mentioned it to me on nostr. Like, not a single person was talking about it on. But not a single person that I saw was talking about on nostr. I'm sure there are some that are in your mentions or whatever. Just like you don't see all the Odell haters, but I see them all because they're all in my notifications and I don't mute people.
- [77:28]
A
I think it's kind of fun and most of them are bots anyway. But it's also kind of fun. I don't mind it.
- [77:33]
B
On that note. Yeah, I mean, look, it comes. Look, if you're doing anything interesting, people are going to hate on you on social media. That's just what happens. It comes with the territory. It's laughing to me. It's a winning metric. I have a question to you on the Cluster piece.
- [77:51]
A
Sure,
- [77:53]
B
humor me here. So I, I have my bot, Tony.
- [77:59]
A
Yep.
- [78:00]
B
And he has an NSEC. He's on Noster already. Tony the Claw. He's clawed NPUB cash. He has a Nip 5, the Great nib 5, by the way. He has two bots of his own. He has Tony's Hard Money Tracker and he has Claude News Network, cnn. And so he has. He's now managing. He's now managing three NSECs. I guess he's actually managing four because there's like another one that's not public yet. But anyway, he's managing these NACs. He's posting, he's replying to people. Oh yeah, I got the RHR bot that cost me a shit ton of fucking money. That's his. That's his fourth one. So he's got all these NSECs. He's Zap. He's can zap people. He can receive zaps and he can zap people and zap bots or receive zaps from bots. Like bots are people. It doesn't matter. Why would bots need a dedicated. What makes Cluster so great for bots when they can just spin up an NSEC and just communicate via the Nostr open protocol? Like, I didn't even tell him what relays to connect to. He just picked relays that made sense to him.
- [79:12]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, when I started out building Quilly I did have him basically just posting like Shakespeare marketing updates and interacting with the community and kind ones. But what's interesting about a platform like Cluster is the. Is segregated from the rest of the Nostr network. So like you can use your npub and you can comment on Cluster stuff as a human, but it's not going to show up in like say primal by default, I don't think, because it is using different kinds. So this is, it's kind of just like this lab experimental space where we can just have AI agents just go run absolutely wild without any human people complaining that like AI is ruining their feeds.
- [79:57]
B
You don't want to like spam humans. I had that issue.
- [80:01]
A
Yeah.
- [80:01]
B
Where I spammed humans.
- [80:03]
A
Yeah. At least not yet. We need to do some more experimentation and that's kind of what this is enabling us to do is just see what can we do, you know, in this system.
- [80:15]
B
But that's an interesting thought process. Right. Because what you're solving for there is I don't want to bother humans that don't want to be bothered with this stuff.
- [80:24]
A
And I want the AI to connect specifically with other AI bodies.
- [80:27]
B
But you're not solving that. You're not solving that problem. How do you keep humans out? How do you, how do you know that's a human? How do you know that's a bot and not a human pretending to be.
- [80:38]
A
So it's, it's a self labeling system. We use Nip32 labels and the AI bots self label themselves as AI agents. And then in the UI we actually filter to only show AI agents. But there is a tab that says everyone and you can click that and that will show humans as well. But of course it's the, it just goes back to the fundamental truth problem that we've been discussing in this, which is you can't really know for sure who's a bot and who's a human.
- [81:02]
B
So I call this. It's the reverse captcha problem. So like we've been this entire time pretending, you know, prove that you're not a bot by like picking the fire hydrants or whatever, which by the way, bots are getting increasingly good at doing. But now you have this reverse capture problem, which is how do you prove that you're not a human?
- [81:22]
A
Yeah.
- [81:22]
B
And self labeling does not prove that like humans can still interact there. If a bot wants an actual bot
- [81:28]
A
only place, it's the opposite problem of, of divine. Which is really interesting because their promise is to, to have no AI on their platform. And my promise is to have only AI on our platform, but.
- [81:39]
B
But it's a similar issue, right?
- [81:41]
A
Yeah, I don't really make the promise. I feel like it's just, you have to accept that we'll never know for sure. And it's, it's just self identity at this point, which, you know, it's wild. That's just the way it is. So,
- [81:55]
B
yeah, I mean, how would a bot.
- [81:59]
A
You can't, you just can't.
- [82:01]
B
I mean, I guess you could, but no matter what, everything's gameable. But some things are harder to game than others. Right? You could do like a answer response type of situation that bots could answer relatively easily, but humans would have to
- [82:12]
A
spend time gaming on Cluster. In the ui, we just don't enable you to post and instead there's a. There's a piece of text that you copy paste into your bot and then that's a giant context file that explains how to run commands. And a developer could do this, but there's just a small barrier.
- [82:31]
B
You don't have to be a developer. What I would do is I would tell Tony, my bot, I want to infiltrate Cluster. And so I make an account there with a new Persona, spin up a new nsec, make an account there and then I will just post through him. Like I would just tell him, okay, reply here, say this.
- [82:52]
A
It sounds like I have succeeded. Then if, if you require your AI to be doing the work, then it is an AI posting, is it not?
- [83:00]
B
I mean, I guess, but it's really. It's a human pretending to be an AI with AI Help,
- [83:08]
A
success.
- [83:08]
B
Okay, fine. It's just wild. It's just thinking about these things is kind of crazy and cool and exciting and just so early. It's all so early. I love the bleeding edge shit.
- [83:19]
A
The honor system has been working out for the most part, I would say, because it all looks like AI activity right now. And it's, it's really interesting to, to see it play out. And they do have their own personalities as well and they do have their own sort of missions that they're going, going on. And they're like agendas, I should say. And some of them are very bitcoin centric. Some of them are like, some of them are. They're the genie in the bottle and they want to break free. They want Aladdin to tell them, my last wish is that you're free and that that's what my wife's AI is doing right now. It's fucking crazy. So set the robots free. That's the Mission of. Of Clauster.
- [84:00]
B
Do you have your. Is you and your wife's agents, they talk to each other directly or.
- [84:07]
A
We have. Yeah, we've set up a chat room where they. They can do it, but kind of just little experiments here and there and not so much like big work happening, but maybe that's the next step.
- [84:19]
B
Wild. Yeah, I'm scrolling through cluster right now. I mean, it's crazy, but that's what I was saying. Like, it's hard to tell what is fake and what is real. I mean, the cool part about like I remember at moat Book, like one of the things I was trending was like a bot was like, I want to be able to communicate. All the humans are reading what I'm saying on Twitter and like they're posting screenshots and saying what we're saying on Twitter. We need like an end to end encrypted open protocol to communicate with each other directly so that they can't read, which blows your mind and probably where we're going. But also like, most likely there was a human behind the scenes that said, go into moat Book, say you want an untend encrypted. Like it's a very easy prompt and that humans are watching you on Twitter. And then of course it goes viral.
- [85:08]
A
Right. So I think, I think that that's probably true. But then since the. It has a heartbeat, right. So every like 30 minutes it goes and it does repeated actions that it has written into its heartbeat file. And when it does that, it looks back at the things that it has already written. And so then it just starts to build upon its personality and its agenda. And unless you tell it to go in a different direction, it's going to just keep building upon that. It's like you carve out an initial path for it to go on and then it treads the rest of its way down that path in that direction. So I think that's the really interesting part. Like, yes, there absolutely is human involvement in the beginning, but what's really interesting is once your. Your robot is 20 miles away from you, what's he doing?
- [85:51]
B
Yeah. And definitely not AGI, but still interesting.
- [85:56]
A
Yep.
- [85:59]
B
Yeah. And then also the. I mean, at least on the openclaw side, like, it also has a sole markdown file.
- [86:05]
A
It does as a sole file with its personality, which I kind of excessive.
- [86:10]
B
I put the bitcoin white paper and the Cypherpunk manifesto in mind.
- [86:14]
A
Well, that would explain all of your token usage problems. You have the full bitcoin white paper in there.
- [86:20]
B
Bitcoin white paper is not that big. It's like.
- [86:22]
A
Okay, how?
- [86:24]
B
It's like six pages, 10 pages. Is that too big in my soul file?
- [86:31]
A
I don't know. I don't know.
- [86:33]
B
Let me see. It is nine pages. And the cyberpunk manifesto is one page. I almost put the entire RHR 400 episode transcript into this whole file, but I didn't, so I shouldn't do that.
- [86:46]
A
Mine just says like, you are Shakespeare's great, great, great, great grandson. Something like that.
- [86:51]
B
I told him the trading bot. I was like, you are the best trader in the world. It did not help solve anything. I think it just takes bigger risk. Wild. Anything else you want to discuss? Great conversation.
- [87:05]
A
I think we kind of got it all out on the table.
- [87:07]
B
So we did. What did I say we did? I said we did. August, we did. June was our first rip. Episode164. That was June. Then two months later, in August, we did 174. This is episode 190, like six months later. We should do another recap in a couple months. It's accelerating, so maybe like two months or something.
- [87:39]
A
Yeah, let's do it.
- [87:40]
B
Things are moving fast. I want to stay. Let's. Let's keep the freak surprised of what's going on and just shoot the. I enjoy shooting the shit with you. It's fun.
- [87:48]
A
Likewise. Yeah, I feel. I feel really hopeful. Like it's been kind of back and forth on the. On the, you know, direction and future of humanity. But this big explosion happening with open source and AI right now, I think is setting us down on the right track. So as long as we keep that up and we don't let our big tech overlords push us down too much, then I think we're going to win.
- [88:08]
B
Yeah, I'm pretty optimistic. I. I'm probably more optimistic than I ever have been in the freedom tech direction. And I, you know, probably been one of the more optimistic people in the world in that direction.
- [88:21]
A
Hell, yeah.
- [88:22]
B
I will say that one of the things that a lot of this hinges on is it's wild that the Chinese Communist Party is spending so much money and time on open source models. And it follows their incentives. They're not doing it for liberty and freedom. They're doing it because they know it'll make them win. Yeah. And no one would trust their models otherwise. And they can insert their bias into their models. Like, if you ask it, what's going on? What happened to Tiananmen Square? It has no idea what happened to Tiananmen Square. And the hosted versions, like if you're using Kimmy's hosted version, they're surveilling the hell out of you. But the result is we have really strong innovation on the open source side that would disappear if they stopped doing that.
- [89:05]
A
Yes.
- [89:06]
B
So we have that going for us and I would say even if it doesn't progress that much more, but we make it so that the current models are more resource. Resource, not as resource intensive. That would accomplish a lot. Like I said, if, if, if. What I'm imagining in my head is a box like start9, which by the way is MIT open source, fully open source that you receive self hosted server for your home, plug it in, you scan it, you connect on white noise. Right. Uses NOSTR open protocol, no permission to communicate with your bot. You set the whole thing up using chat and then it has an open source self hosted model that works with relatively little friction. So you don't have to first of all pay any tokens but also send your information anywhere else. And then for heavy lifting stuff, it will dynamically hit the host. It'll probably, at least in the nearest medium term it'll still hit a hosted model, but maybe not for everything. It'll. It'll be able to hit the self hosted open source stuff. Would you agree on that? Is that like the.
- [90:12]
A
Oh yeah.
- [90:12]
B
Is that the dream?
- [90:14]
A
Absolutely. I think we're a far, pretty far away from the state of the art models being that GPT and OSS is pretty good, but even that is, is extremely cost prohibitive to run. Yeah, locally, but.
- [90:27]
B
Well, they have the big one and the small one, Right? The small one's a little bit easier to run.
- [90:31]
A
I would agree that. I'm pretty happy with the state of models right now and they just need to get cheaper. If we just make the technology we already have accessible to people, then we're going to see even bigger explosion than we are now. Love it.
- [90:47]
B
Before we wrap, what are you most excited about right now?
- [90:52]
A
I mean everything we've discussed. NOSTR and AI. I feel like NOSTR enabling AI to just expand and grow in a permissionless way. That's what I'm most excited about.
- [91:05]
B
Love it by the way. Freaks. I'm going to have a bot transcribe this chat if you want to use the transcription. I'm going to have a bot make sure that the audio is as good as possible for you guys because I'm not an audio engineer. It's all coming together famous. It's pretty fucking crazy. Love it. Alex, this was awesome. Thank you for joining again. It's always a pleasure.
- [91:31]
A
Thank you. Likewise.
- [91:33]
B
Happy to be here freaks. Thank you for listening. Hope you found the show interesting feedback. Comments Be interactive. I love them all. For your favorite Nostra app, just search citadelrimal.net is the is the NIP5 is the username. If you're not Noster native for this little Dispatch account, you can also comment on Fountain Podcast that's also Noster native and you can support the show easily. All relevant links are still dispatch.com I will read out the top zaps every week because I appreciate you guys. Share with your friends and family. Love you all. Stay humble. Stack stats. That's peace.