Every Leader Needs A Friend | Jabin Chavez Leadership Podcast with Rich Wilkerson Jr.

Summary

Podcast Summary: City Light Church Las Vegas | Jabin Chavez Leadership Podcast with Rich Wilkerson Jr.
Episode: Every Leader Needs A Friend
Date: March 11, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode is a lively and insightful conversation between Pastor Jabin Chavez (City Light Church, Las Vegas) and his close friend, Pastor Rich Wilkerson Jr. (VU Church, Miami). Together, they take a candid journey through the arts and challenges of preaching, building church culture, managing momentum, and the vital role of friendship in leadership. Their back-and-forth blends practical advice, storytelling, and humor, creating an episode packed with wisdom for both seasoned and aspiring leaders.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Art and Experience of Preaching

• Flow State in Preaching
  • Jabin opens with a story about seeking the "flow state" while preaching, referencing a quote from jazz guitarist Joe Pass—“Flow is the absence of thought”—only to be humorously challenged by another pastor (01:25). Rich affirms the value but admits, “It is risky. It is scary. I probably need to be more intentional about trying to do it. But when you get up on a stage sometimes you just can.” (02:21)
• Refining Sermons Between Services
  • Jabin shares his Saturday night approach: preaching with fewer notes and tweaking content before Sunday morning, emphasizing that the best moment isn’t always the cleanest one (03:02–04:12).
• Giving, Not Taking, When Preaching
  • Rich discusses the mindset shift: “When I’m up here, I am sowing. I am not here to receive anything.” (06:24)
• The Trauma and Vulnerability of Preaching
  • “Preaching is traumatic. Like, it’s traumatizing to him,” Jabin recalls Steven Furtick describing the emotional toll of genuine preaching. (07:27)

2. Measuring and Creating Impact

• Atmosphere of Faith & Worship
  • Jabin, as a former worship leader, notes the importance of setting a faith-filled atmosphere—sometimes prioritizing worship over sermon length for connection (09:41).
• Concise Preaching
  • Trick for preaching short: “There’s always one point that I really care about...If I’m out of time, I can just hit the one that I really care about.” (10:46)
  • Advice from mentors: “Don’t preach past the anointing. If God’s on something, don’t move. Like, end it.” (11:11)

3. Excellence, Art, and Effort in Church

• Preaching as Art
  • The two discuss church as a form of art, referencing the craft in music, lighting, and production: “I love what’s happening in Gen Z. … I think effort towards however your craft is, that there’s an art towards all of it that you should appreciate.” (25:38)
  • Jabin: “What I don’t want the church to do…is lose art.” (25:59)
• Creating Memorable Moments
  • Illustrations and creative effort (“bricks” for strongholds) can create memorable, shareable moments in sermons (24:44).
  • “Excellence still attracts people. Effort…just goes a long way.” (24:39)

4. Leadership, Growth, and Systems

• Leading Across Church Size Transitions
  • Rich describes not copying more established leaders wholesale: "You cannot benchmark just because he’s five years, six years older than you...This is a story and a grace and an anointing that's different." (44:19)
• Building Trust Through Process
  • Jabin: “They don’t love you yet. They don’t know you yet. You haven't had a big trust-building moment yet." (46:31)
  • Rich: “Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.” (48:38)
• Vision Must Be Anchored in Results
  • Jabin: "Share the vision through results...That's the best way to share vision." (49:44)
• Sustaining and Creating Momentum
  • Momentum comes in waves: "Two lies about momentum: When I have it, I think I’ll never lose it. When I don’t have it, I think I’ll never get it back. Both are a lie." (54:20)
  • Use distinct events or changes (Easter, conferences) to create momentum but don’t overlap too many at once (52:43–53:45).
  • "Fall in love with the process, and teach people to fall in love with the process." (54:24)

5. Systems vs. Culture

• Diagnosing Frustration: System or Vision?
  • "You don’t rise to the level of your goal, you fall to the level of your system." —James Clear (63:57)
  • Systematic issues—not culture or vision—usually limit growth (63:45).
• Adapting Systems for Growth
  • Examples: Adjusting service times to accommodate more volunteers, redefining access to creative resources, and clarifying project management in media teams (70:01).
• Practical Problem Solving
  • When problems arise (e.g., dark parking lots at a new venue), leaders should look for system adjustments rather than blame vision or preaching (71:34).

6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

Preaching & Artistry

• “Excellence still attracts people. Effort… just goes a long way.” —Jabin (24:44)
• “Preaching is traumatic. Like, it’s traumatizing to him.” —Jabin (07:27, citing Steven Furtick)
• “Don’t preach past the anointing. If God’s on something, don’t move. Like, end it.” —Jabin quoting Jensen Franklin (11:11)
• “You can solve this stuff.” —Rich, on practical systems solving (71:28)

Building & Leading

• “Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.” —Rich (48:38)
• “You cannot benchmark...This is a story and a grace and an anointing that's different.” —Rich (44:19)
• “Share the vision through results.” —Jabin (49:44)
• “You don’t rise to the level of your goal, you fall to the level of your system.” —Rich quoting James Clear (63:57)
• “Repetition creates reputation. Preparation creates any version of spontaneity.”—Rich (67:36)
• “Vision gives pain purpose.” —Rich (74:04)

Humor and Humanity

• Jabin and Rich’s anecdotes about youth preaching, TBN pranks, and Eagles concerts offer levity and warmth (see 28:47–41:59).

---

Notable Segments & Timestamps

• Flow State and Preaching Vulnerability: 01:13–07:59
• Managing Multiple Services & Sermon Editing: 03:02–05:44
• Trust, Results, and Building Culture: 46:31–50:11
• Momentum and Vision-Making: 51:44–54:20
• Systems, Frustrations, and Scaling Up: 63:45–71:28
• Encouragement for Leaders—Vision and Pain: 73:24–74:11

---

Final Thoughts

In this episode, Jabin Chavez and Rich Wilkerson Jr. model the synergy of friendship and leadership. They strip ministry of its intimidating veneer, advocating for faithfulness in the process, honesty in the journey, and continual refinement of both heart and craft. Their blend of practical advice, revelatory quotes, and personal anecdotes make this essential listening for anyone in church leadership, creative roles, or anyone passionate about building healthy, vibrant communities.

---

To Learn More: Visit citylightvegas.com

---

Note: Timestamps provided in MM:SS format to quickly locate key conversations in the episode.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, friend. And welcome to the Jabyn Chavez Leadership Podcast. I am so excited about this one. We are about to jump into a conversation that I recently had with Pastor Rich Wilkerson, the pastor of VU Church in Miami, Florida. To me, Rich is not just one of my best friends and one of my favorite preachers, but honestly, in my mind, he is the best leader of our generation. Of all the guys that are pastoring and leading at the level that we're doing it at, to me, Rich is just the best. So he's not just creative, he's not just really fun. He's not just really gifted. He is a leader. And you are going to love this podcast. Make sure to like and subscribe and share and do all the things. Make sure to. If you. If you. If you're being blessed by the podcast, give a little shout on Instagram and do something in your stories or repost one of the clips that we're going to post. Help us get the word out. This podcast is awesome, and I think you're going to be really blessed by it. I love you so much. And I'll see you next week with brand new content. I was trying to, like, connect with Stephen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so there's this quote by jazz guitar player Joe Pass. He's like a legendary. If you're, you know, sounds like trying to, like, we're at breakfast that morning.

[B]

So what? You prep the quote.

[A]

So I was like, you know, Joe Pass, you know, the legendary guitar player? And he's like, yeah, he's like, fox tracking along. So I was like, just trying desperately to connect. And I go, yeah. He's got this great quote about flow is the absence of thought. Like, you leave thought and you just get into a flow. And he's like, now stupidity is the absence of thought. And he just, like, started like. Like he didn't like the quote. Yeah. And I was like, why are you hating on my quote right now?

[B]

I was like, I just. So you kind of brought this. You brought this as a gift, and it just kind of turned into.

[A]

I thought he was gonna love it. I thought he was gonna be like, man, that's a deep.

[B]

I think I. I think I like that.

[A]

I love. Because we were talking about preaching, and I was like, I'm trying to get out of my head. Totally trying to, like, get in a flow state.

[B]

It's that whole TD Jakes line, right? Like, let yourself.

[A]

Let yourself go. So I thought. I thought it was great. And he's like, well, there's a lot

[B]

you're not thinking that's stupidity. My fault.

[A]

Why are you hating on. I told him straight up. I was like, why don't you like my quote right now?

[B]

You know, I like the flow state. I think I'm always. I wish there was a way I could access that better. The flow state, it feels like to me it sort of. Sometimes it kind of comes. But I think it is risky. I think it is scary. I probably need to be more intentional about trying to do it. But when you get up on a stage sometimes you just can.

[A]

Like, well, I don't know how your first service is, but because our first service is Saturday, it's helped me to do that because the atmosphere is great and I can. So I go in now with way less notes than before.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I just can feel the night.

[B]

Do you end up preaching longer on Saturday night than you do the rest of the services?

[A]

Preaching longer, adding ton of stuff to my notes. And then the guys send me the link. Saturday night I sit down at dinner, open my notes, listen to my sermon and I add everything that I. But I don't have to do it like, you know, in a 20 minute turnaround, I've got the night to kind of like.

[B]

Do you ever post that Saturday night service as like the.

[A]

Sometimes if it's like, yeah.

[B]

Or do you think it's kind of sloppy, It's.

[A]

To you it's long and sloppy. But what I can do is the next morning,

[B]

it's not long. It's long.

[A]

It keeps going. Sometimes though, yeah, I'm like, we got it post Saturday night. That was the moment.

[B]

Because it just connected.

[A]

But what is better I have Saturday night, I work that out Sunday 8:15, tighten it up. And then that 9:45 is usually what we post and I'm super happy with it. But like this weekend, 9:45 is great. We posted it. But the 11:30 was like bananas and we should have posted 11:30.

[B]

Why'd you not do it?

[A]

I think I just didn't think about it earlier and should have. Should have text the guys and said, hey, like, I don't know, I just wasn't. I went home and didn't think about it.

[B]

You have any feeling on or data on or belief on just because it felt good to you? Did you think it's going to be better for everybody else on the Internet or does it make sense? Like sometimes. Sometimes I think like the one that I really liked, I'm like, bro, I was really loose and everyone's like, you went too long.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That joke's fun in the room. I don't think a podcast listener cares to hear any of that, but I don't know. I don't know the answer to it.

[A]

I don't know either. I definitely. I would say, though, especially in that new building, because I'm still getting used to it. When I listen back, I feel like the crowd's way more with me than when I'm in the room. When I'm in the room, I don't feel as much connection. So, like. And I think when we were in the high school, it was so loud. They're right there on you. It was just like, you know, you're on this, like, old wooden stage. It's just, you know, it's vibrating from your. I don't know. It's like the whole thing. The speakers are on the stage. It's. It's like a whole, like, thing here now you're on a concrete stage. You can't feel it. It's. It's treated 100 times better. But that also means you kind of can't hear, you know, because, like, even the. The Gabe who leads, our host, he'll be like, I'm so sorry about that kid. And I'm like, I never even heard the kid crying because it's so far away. Yeah. But that's also. That. It's also a bummer because I'm like, are they with me? But then I go back and listen. I'm like, oh, wow, that was a.

[B]

That is a strange experience. And I've had the same thing. Oftentimes I'll go back and watch, because I would say the majority of the time that's. I'm sad to say that at 41 years of age, the majority of the time I'm like, I don't think I did as good as I wanted to. You know what I mean? Or maybe that I. Maybe that I even did. And watching back has helped me a lot. Go, oh, bro, like, sentence made sense. You had clear thoughts.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, and they were. They were responding. They were responding. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know if that's just my, like, insanity that I'm unable, while I'm up there, to receive much back. I also think there's a whole principle that I've had to, like, really go on the journey when it comes to preaching. Like, my job is merely and only to give. When I'm up here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I am sewing. I am not here to receive anything.

[A]

I'm not here to take.

[B]

I have to be that drastic with it. Otherwise, I'm going to be let down somehow. And I think that as I've matured and it's like, hey, this is. I'm not coming up on this stage to receive something. I'm coming up on this stage to give something. And even that little adjustment of a framework of thinking that way has helped me tremendously go up, do my job, and carry on into the next week, you know? Yep.

[A]

Yeah. You're just. Okay, next. Yeah, we got to do it again. Yeah. Just here to help.

[B]

It sounds a little morbid when I'm saying that way, but, I mean, obviously we need to receive stuff. I just don't think that's the place for me to receive. I think I've got to go and you. And I got to sit down and chat and tell war stories and. Oh, that's a great insight. That's a thought. Cool. Oh, I love how you did that. There's better places to kind of go and have the cup filled. I think the preaching is like, that's our opportunity just to go and pour out. And so that's helped me a lot this past year, really, to kind of change my mindset and be aware of that. Like, bro, I think maybe you're looking to. You're kind of fishing to get something that they were never meant to give you up there to.

[A]

So, yes, Stephen, I vertic at that thing we were at last May he was talking about. Preaching is traumatic. Like, it's traumatizing to him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I get that because it is like you are bearing your soul. You're letting out all this thought and emotion, and you gotta kind of just go, all right, I'm not. I'm giving. I'm not receiving. And it is a little traumatic. And you. You do hope you're connecting and you do hope you're helping people, and you do want them to love it, but you got to kind of die to that.

[B]

It's a.

[A]

It's a whole.

[B]

What was the whole joke? It's like, let's go to lunch, like, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You just, like, you got.

[B]

This is life changing. Or we just go to lunch. It's like. It's this weird tension.

[A]

Nick. Nick Saban, the Alabama coach. Yeah. He said, every loss is a tragedy and every victory is a relief.

[B]

Wow. I like that.

[A]

So you got it. I feel that, like, it's like a most amazing Sunday. I'm not actually happy. I'm. Oh, thank God we made it. So. But that's why you have to find some joy outside of that Moment. Because you do have to, like, okay, I'm relieved they came. You know, like, I walk out and they're here again. It's like a relief.

[B]

And. And this might kind of come off disappointing to someone who's listening, who's a preacher, but, like, there is that parable of the sower and whatever it is. Four different soils he sows into three of the four.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Which. I'm not giving us an excuse as a preacher, but, yeah. Oftentimes we're wondering if the seed is bad, and more often than not, it's the soil that's bad. But the great flip of that whole story, of course, is that one soil where it does land, it's 100 fold return. Totally. And so even as we're preaching, it's like, man, if I can just get one person.

[A]

Well, to catch this. And as you say that, it makes me think, what could we do better to prepare the people for that moment where the pressure isn't as much on us to bring this unbelievable, brilliant word? But actually, what could we do better to build an atmosphere of faith in the room?

[B]

Very good.

[A]

So that whether you're going 25, 45, 50 minutes, whatever your preaching style is, the room is better set for those moments. So I feel like that sometimes, like, and as a former worship leader, it kind of helps me, but sometimes I'm like, no, I'm not. We're not finishing worship till there's a connection. There's something in the room that feels. But. But then. But if that means I only have 25 minutes to preach, that's okay. I can actually get more work done.

[B]

Give me your greatest little tool trick. I like the word trick. To preach short, when you've got more content that you just bail. Like, what's a. What's a great way somebody can bail? Like, I. One of my weaknesses is I have to finish my bow.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I have to. I have to finish my. Here's my reveal of my title. Hey, here is. You didn't. I'm still in the text, and it's like they don't even see.

[A]

They don't even know.

[B]

But, like, I think you're really good at going, all right, I gotta. I gotta be over. And. And you know how to. You know how to gracefully get out of that. Is there. Is there a trick you have that you can help preachers that.

[A]

I think the trick is one out of. Okay. So I always have points, and that helps me, and there's always one point that I really care about. So out of three points, there's really only one that I'm really passionate about. The other two are usually setting up the one that I really care about. Meaning if I'm out of time, I can just hit the one that I really care about. So that is a big thing. Jensen would always tell me, don't preach past the anointing. If. If God's on something, don't move. Like, end it. Don't like, okay, that's the moment. And if you're only brilliant, you're only 25 minutes into the sermon, and you have another 20 minutes, who cares? Get the worship team back up and let's go. Like, let's have a moment around that.

[B]

That you might have come in going, I thought the thing was this.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

But it's that.

[A]

Yeah. Which I think. I think still does happen, but usually I'm pretty. We've done it long enough now. But if you're newer to preaching, you might not know this yet, but, like, you eventually figure out, okay, this is what I really care about. This is the moment. This is what I'm. This is my burden, you know? And then. So I try to build around that. And a lot of times what I do, which I think is not good experientially, but as a pastor, it doesn't matter. I put what I really care about up front to make sure I get to it smart. And then almost point, I try to build it around. End of point one. Point two, point three is kind of just like. Kind of a little call.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But we don't have to go there. And I think that has helped me, you know, kind of create that.

[B]

I think you're one of the best at managing a clock, which is such a funny thing to even give kudos to, but it's a big deal in terms of. But I think it's. I mean, we're here today at a venue that you guys used to run five services out of, and you've learned how to go, all right, if we get 50 minutes, God's gonna move. And if we get an hour and a half, thank you. We got more space, but you've got to kind of. Sometimes. Sometimes we are a victim of our circumstance and the place that we're in. It's funny. We do this thing. We've probably doing it for probably four years now on super bowl weekend because we don't have night services because we try to get people to go just evangelize and be at super bowl parties. We do this thing called the Soul Bowl. Like, the Vu Soul Bowl.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so this year, we had 10 different services with five preachers at a piece, 50 preachers.

[A]

Geez.

[B]

I mean, so just a Managing this and organizing this, and everyone gets seven minutes. But what I always like about it is that there is something kind of fun about putting somebody in there who doesn't do it every week. I think it's good for them to feel the weight of preaching. And I only ever get on the back end, like, people going, pastor Rich, I didn't know what this was like every week, 100%. But I was talking to one of my friends who's not a preacher, but very, very sharp guy in our church, and he spoke and did his seven minutes, and he did a wonderful job, really brilliant job with the time and the word. He used the Bible in a really beautiful way. But he said to me, he's like, it was so interesting, People coming up to me, what they would point out wasn't really, like, totally the point of my servant.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

I'm like, yeah, brother. People have selective hearing. And if you're gonna go up there for 35 minutes or 40 minutes, the thing that maybe you were carrying.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Somebody else is totally leaning into this other thing, which is hilarious, because we talk about points and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is what I want to bring. It's like, bro, they're gonna hear.

[A]

And sometimes it's. That's God, and sometimes it's their own. They want to hear what they want to hear.

[B]

Totally. Totally.

[A]

And that's funny. Well, you know, and it's funny about this whole thing is a million years ago. I remember picking up Chris Hill for a youth conference.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. If you believe it, say, yeah,

[A]

Hashtag young preacher.

[B]

That man could break open a room.

[A]

And he would go. He went, what'd you preach last night? I went, well, I preached. And he goes, no, what'd you preach last night? I went, well, yeah. He goes, what was the point? And I go, he goes, no, what was the one? And he just kept drilling me down. He's like, what. What was your sermon in one phrase? And I was like, ooh. And I just. I still remember that now, I don't know, 16 years later, going, like, okay, what is the sermon in a sentence? What is that one thought? Can you boil it down to something? So I try to, like, create a thought and then build a sermon around. Yeah, that one thing I really, really care about. And I think Andy Stanley always thought that too. Right. Like, don't preach five points. Preach one point.

[B]

And then, you know, well, he was a master. He's a master at the series of like, like, leaving you, like. Like, I don't ever leave someone with a question. I'm solving everyone's problem on the one Sunday that they're there, you know, which he would, like, leave you going like, hey, so better come back next week to. To hear this. Which I always thought was really, really enticing and intriguing. Years ago, this must have been 15, 16, maybe. Maybe 17 years ago. I'm preaching in Honolulu. I'm in Mark Chapter two. I'm at Art Sepulveda's. I don't know what this conference. It was their church conference. And this is like. Remember, sometimes people do these, like, two preachers on the night thing.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I'm never a big. I'm never a big fan of that, you know, and I'm always.

[A]

I'm excited.

[B]

Well, you and I just. You and I just had to do this the other day. Praise God, you're. And I'm glad. Put me first. Put me first. And you. You came out and crushed. But I just. I don't love. Shout out to our boy Robbie, but I don't love that.

[A]

Very hard to do.

[B]

I'm there to serve. It's not about me, but, you know,

[A]

I just don't love, like, not about us. Robbie Hilton. But if you could have.

[B]

It's a 7pm meeting. So it's like a 7pm meeting. And it's like the Friday night of the conference. I must. I'm young. I mean, if I'm. If this is 15 years ago. I mean, I'm 25, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm up first, and then I'm being followed by a man by the name of Chris Hill. Brother. I used to preach this message from, like, Mark 2 of, like, the man cutting the hole in the roof and.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would.

[B]

I would close with Jesus through every

[A]

book of the Bible.

[B]

This thing, this is. This is a cracker, you know? I mean, this thing can.

[A]

I remember that sermon?

[B]

That thing can get a roof. Genesis, he's the seed of the woman that'll get. That'll get a white Baptist church up on their feet, you know? But, bro, I mean, I'm bringing this. I finish, I go sit down. Like, I feel like I did a pretty good job, you know, this joker gets up, he's like, mark Chapter two. Let's pick up where my brother left off. Dude wrote a message while I was sitting there, and that place went nuts. Nuts.

[A]

He was unbelievable.

[B]

It was crazy.

[A]

I. I remember that so He. That was the day.

[B]

Crazy. That was. I was like, oh, there's levels to this.

[A]

Yeah. That night he preached and the.

[B]

In Hawaii.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I was like, you were in Diamond. He asked me that, you know, what's your. What's your. So then that night he preached. It was like, unbelievable. And after I go, can I see your notes? He goes, okay. So he opens his iPad and it's just the scripture, nothing else. Just the scripture, nothing else. He's just so proud of himself, right? And I'm like, I'm so amazed. Just. It's just a scripture, nothing else. And I go, I go, how long did it take you to write that sermon? He goes, 40 years.

[B]

Friggin Picasso quote.

[A]

Floors.

[B]

Oh, that's a. That's Picasso.

[A]

Wow. 40, 40 years, he said, just, you know, drinking his tea. 40 years. I said, oh, my God. God. Pastor Chris.

[B]

That's that great Picasso quote where, you know, he's doodling something and the woman walks into the diner. She's like, oh, can I buy that? He's like. And he says some crazy number. $100,000, you know? She's like, $100,000. It took you 15 minutes? He's like, no, took me my whole life.

[A]

My whole life.

[B]

Like, all right, all right, Chris, that's funny.

[A]

What a great.

[B]

We see your notes. Mark 2, just.

[A]

It's literally like Mark 2, nothing else. It was just like I was.

[B]

Lord, do you feel like your whole life like, I like, you've always been obsessed kind of with preaching. You love it. Like, well, even like as a young man, that. That would be so cool to you, like, asking those questions.

[A]

And I like, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I want to know every student. How do you do that? How do you. I was asking. I was just asking Jensen some questions about, like, how do you get into ministry time? How do you. How do you plan? I. So I am kind of obsessed with it. But that's.

[B]

That's what I'm very, very. I want to grow in completely ministering, like. And that's back to the flow state. I think this is like heart to heart connection. This is deep calls to deep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is my soul ministering to your soul. This is out of the overflow of who I am. And I think spiritual gifts and I think sometimes my analytic brain, my chronological order, I can be so obsessed with the content, but it's like, dude, it's not the content matters. It has to be based on the word of God. But can you actually connect?

[A]

And I'm I'm always thinking about what is the last 10 minutes feel like just of the service.

[B]

It makes sense because you're great.

[A]

I start there, so I've got my, like, my burden. And I've got the feeling that I want to feel at the very, very end. And then I try to create around that and I. And I know, you know, and then it kind of helps me when I'm like, oh, man, I missed it because I. I knew what that should have felt like at the end. Like, next week I. I go to. I do or use chapel. I have 25 minutes. I just got the email. 20. I'm like, Bro. But it does. It kind of makes you like, all right, I gotta go to the drawing board. So I've really got 15. Yep, I've really got 10. Because for the first five minutes, I need to. Or I need to honor Oral Roberts, of course, President Billy Wilson. And so you got five to just introduce, then you got 10. Then. Then I've got like 10 to kind of create a moment. So I'm like, okay, what do I do for that 20 minutes?

[B]

You think you've got a plan?

[A]

I think, but it's more about, like, what would I, you know, that 19 year old sitting there. What do I. What's that feeling? So I think I'm gonna do just like a quick little thought on prayer from the prayer of Jabez. And like. But I try to create that moment. It's really. What do you do in 25 minutes? You almost gotta just create a moment.

[B]

I got an idea for you.

[A]

Give it to me.

[B]

I think you should give him the prayer of Jabin.

[A]

Read the prayer of Jabez, and then be like, you know what? I think this is wrong.

[B]

So, hey, I just. I love this prayer, but can I just give you my prayer? You can write this down in your notes. This is called the prayer of Jabin. Brother, you're speaking my language.

[A]

Okay? But my prayer has been really moving the hand of God. Let's start, I think.

[B]

And then today's notes, I want you to title this and you put your name and then here. And I want you to make a prayer. Prayer of Jabez, dude. Prayer of Jabez.

[A]

But I think that's what I'm gonna. But again, I think it all goes back to that.

[B]

Like,

[A]

I think when you're in the grind, week in and week out, you're trying to give like a thought and then a feeling that's like, what I.

[B]

Absolutely. My father, who's one of my favorite preachers of all time. Don Cherie's dad and Don Cherry's one of my favorite preachers of all time. But he would always tell me and I, I always received this. He's like, he's like, I don't care what you're talking about, but you're gonna have to make people feel something, go through the gamut of emotions. You know, they can laugh, they can cry, they can get angry, they can feel the fear of the Lord, like, but you, you've got to make them feel something. And I actually believe, and I really mean this, I think that if you have the ability and the gift from God to help make people feel something, you'll always have a ministry. It's like, and God bless Gen Z and God bless a lot of things that are happening today. But sometimes I feel like there's maybe this like, rage against like the art of preaching. I just don't think it's ever going anywhere. I think it's, I think it's.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I think people rally around somebody who's actually taken the time to prep, to come around, to text, to bring dynamics to it and to paint the picture of Jesus and minister. I think there's going to always.

[A]

Well, think about Philip Anthony Mitchell. Like, think about the way that people have responded to him. And it's that emotion, but it's an art form. I don't know if he would call it an art form. I've never met him, but I. Oh, I think so. It's an art form. It's an art. What he does. He memorizes it. He, he's an order.

[B]

He's, he's an orator.

[A]

And I think that is something that I feel like I'm always telling this, like when church planners or, or pastors are asking me how to grow the church, I'm like, you seem to get better. I was like, people will come. Like, I don't want to. Like, let's not overthink this. Pray. Do all the systems. I mean, I've got a ton of questions here that we could talk through, but I'm like, if you're good, like, if you're really good, people are gonna come. Not everybody, but like, you will build something around a gift. And I think what's funny is like, well, we don't wanna be personality driven, whatever. No, we're not. I mean, that's not the goal. But like, excellence still attracts people. Effort. I heard a guy just say that difference between excellence and mediocrity is effortless. So I'm like, Just put in effort and to create a moment and some phrases and some thoughts and, you know, like, I did this illustration last week with these bricks. I was talking about strongholds. You build them brick by brick, you know, but it's just. It's just a little.

[B]

Little effort.

[A]

Little effort. It's just a little long way. You don't have to overthink that. But you should be thinking through, like, what. What could grab. What's something people could write down or take a picture of, right? So my Instagram's just full of people taking pictures of me, right, with the bricks. Like, what's that little bit of effort that could make someone go, ah, okay?

[B]

And I think that's what I mean in terms of, like, I love what's happening in Gen Z. I just think sometimes I'll kind of get these little murmurs where it's sort of like, hey, sometimes the trappings of ministry, we're not about that. Just, you know, open up the Bible, share the text, what does it mean? And we don't need sound and we don't need lighting. We just need an acoustic guitar in a circle. And no one says it that way, right? I'm for all sorts of styles. I don't mind at all what the style is like. And I'm not a hater or a critic of anything. I'm after substance.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm just going, I think effort towards. However your craft is, that there's an art towards all of it that you should appreciate. I think that people are drawn to that. And I think that when you take something serious, when you're passionate about it, when you're putting forth effort and you're writing and you're thinking through these phrases, I think it ministers to people and I think there's always a spot for it.

[A]

And it's art. Like, what I don't want the church to do too, is lose art.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Like, go to the Vatican. It's unbelievable. Go to Florence. Go, like, go walk through a Catholic church or an Eastern Orthodox church. Like, beautiful. And like, so don't even if you're going to go a different way than the way we do church, don't lose art in it. And then I think through what these guys are doing right now with lighting, with, you know, our lighting guy Andrew, who gets there, I don't know, spends at least one night a week at our church designing the lights, hitting all the hits, doing like, it's an art form. It's not worse. Oh, we like these lights and fog. It's like the Fog is only there to see the lights, idiot. Like, this isn't about fog. It's about. It's a beautiful expression of art. And then the screens and the way our team works so hard at hitting the. The cues with the sermon quotes and the scriptures and the lyrics and all hands on deck.

[B]

It's everyone coming together, bringing.

[A]

It's beautiful. It's actually like a. A great artistic expression. It isn't the screens, you know, it's not like we don't need screens. It's like, no, yeah, of course we don't. It's not what it is. It's actually a beautiful thing. The music, the sound, the. So it is. I. I'm with you. Where it's like, I don't want to lose artists in our church because we've criticized. Yeah. Production or rock and roll because we

[B]

came against a style.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we lacked the, you know, the depth to actually consider. There's actually pure intention and motive behind this. And these are different ways that people are worshiping God and serving God.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You know, I. I don't know. I preach those passages in Deuteronomy and Exodus when they're building the tabernacle. I mean, this is detailed, specific stuff. Get the artisans, get the textiles, get the craft makers.

[A]

I mean, the leather makers, the wood, the gold, the silver.

[B]

It's just like, don't tell me. I love. We have a principle in our church. It's like, don't just get a task done. It involve as many people as you possibly can in getting the task done. I think that's what church life is. And so that's kind of my joke sometimes. It was like, I just don't want the next generation to be like, we don't need it. It's like, I know there's all this connotation around mega church, and I think some of it definitely needs to come to the surface. There's all sorts of weird things that are inappropriate. But just because a church is large and just because someone's working really hard on their sermon and just because they're taking time to put artistry into it doesn't mean that it's watered down, doesn't mean that it's weak, doesn't mean it's a TED Talk. Does it mean that it's consumer driven? It's like, no, not at all. I think there's, you know, it's creativity. It's people putting their. Their art form into worship and serving people.

[A]

We. We felt that last night going to. So we went to The Sphere. Last night, watched the Eagles play one. It's just amazing. You're just going to.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

This is beautiful. This, the actual event space, you know, this 18, 000 seat dome. The sphere. It's the. All the video, all the. It's beautiful. It's not like. It's actually like, think about all the guys who had to work to create that. That isn't like. I don't know, you know. Now, last night was obviously entertainment, but I'm just saying it was like someone's gift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone's creativity. Who thought of this? Then the band gets up. They're in their late 70s, early 80s. The vocals were unbelievable. They're playing every. It was like wild.

[B]

It was incredible.

[A]

But it's like, what? Like. I mean, I was looking at that guy, 7, Don Henley, 78 years old or whatever, going like, God, we're so young and like, think. You know what I mean? Like 78, still good going. Playing the drums, playing guitar. It's like, I. Yeah, I don't want to lose that in the church. I don't want to lose that. Like, we can use all of this for the glory of God. And that. That was. That. That was a. That was a cool thing last night. Then, of course, Vince Gill was there. Incredible Shout out.

[B]

Vince.

[A]

Vince Gill. I wrote down these lyrics. I. So I drove home last night, was

[B]

listening to Vince Gil, like, his own stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Unbelievable stuff. I'm a huge Amy Grant fan, though. Baby, baby.

[A]

But these. These Vince Gill lyrics, though, they. They really got to me because I thought, like, we could learn a lot, like, even about marriage and ministry. He's. It's called One More Last Chance before you say we're through. And it says. Well, first she hid my glasses because she knows I can't see she said, I ain't going nowhere, boy Till you spend a little time with me Then the boys called me from the honky tonk Said, there's a party going on down here she might have taken my car keys but she forgot about my old John Deere. What does that make you feel? I'm just kidding.

[B]

I was like, bro, how great are those lyrics? Start breaking that down, you're like, well,

[A]

you know, I'd have to start in Genesis.

[B]

The thing with a John Deere. Jaben.

[A]

Can you believe those lyrics?

[B]

Give the prayer of jaben to it. That's awesome.

[A]

How great are those? I was listening last night. Give me just one more last chance before you say we're.

[B]

But when he's got that voice, bro, he could sing.

[A]

What a voice.

[B]

That guy's smooth as butter.

[A]

I couldn't believe their. I was telling Shan that this morning. I was like, I couldn't believe all their harmonies and what a.

[B]

They might be the greatest American rock band that ever existed.

[A]

It was unreal.

[B]

I mean, it is unbelievable. When I was in college, I used to do this TV show for tbn.

[A]

That's a Trinity Broadcasting Network Shout Out, Matt Crouch. You know, they're actually our sponsor today. I want to thank tbn.

[B]

Can we take a moment right now and just thank tbn? And there's a number coming up on the screen right now.

[A]

71 4.

[B]

7 1. Coast to coast and around the world.

[A]

I don't remember the phone number, but I do remember it was 71 4.

[B]

But I had a television show.

[A]

What was it called back?

[B]

Shout out to Jan Crouch for allowing this to happen. It was on Saturday nights on International. I don't know if it was international, but nationally syndicated television. By the way, the Wave.

[A]

I did don't forget where you're going here. But I did tbn. Praise the Lord one night, and we walk in and Jan Crouch was there. I go, hi, Mrs. Crouch. You know, and Shannon's with me. Shannon was, like, so intrigued by Jan. And Jan just goes, you the singer tonight? And I go, yeah, yeah. She goes, okay. And I didn't say anything else. And Shannon just goes, can I get a picture? She was just like, so, so we have the picture. We'll put it up.

[B]

Yeah, put it up right now.

[A]

Yeah, it's going up. Yeah, we'll. We'll get the picture. Because it.

[B]

I. Shannon was just pumped. I spent a lot of time with Jan Crouch. I went to the movies with Jan Crouch one time.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I mean, she was very, very good to me.

[A]

I met Paul once.

[B]

I, I, I watched a Super bowl or something one time with Paul. I met him many times. They were both very, very good to me. But I had a show called the Wave, and that's Steve Kelly actually started his church out of that TV show

[A]

one night. It was 1am Steve. Steve Kelly was in a season of prayer, fasting. He's saying, God, what is the name of my.

[B]

He saw my show. Boom.

[A]

TBN puns.

[B]

It's over. He'll call in right now and Josh, the whole team.

[A]

Will we get a picture of Steve Kelly right now? By the way, I'm doing Wave Conference.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Go do it.

[B]

It's amazing. That's an amazing church. Virginia Beach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have a show called the Wave. And when I tell you, Jabin, I don't know how this ever aired, but it was me, my brother John Fulton, my older brother, my cousin Chad, and then a little TV personality named Jason Kennedy. Before he was on E. News. The guy went on to have a whole career. It was the four of us. And we would open the shows like four of us sitting there and there'd be a topic like today we're talking about fear. And then we would go, do. Remember that of course show on MTV called Jackass?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

It was that kind of stuff. Like we were doing pranks really. And we would just do like stupid stuff. And then at the very end we'd have like eight minutes and I'd be like, hey guys. Well, like, yeah, what a great show today. The Bible says, you know, when you walk through the valley, do not fear. I mean, I would have some sort

[A]

of devotion the same way that we were just scaring people.

[B]

So it's bizarre. However long way to get to somehow when I'm in Bible college, my freshman year, I'm doing the wave. We get Amy Grant's phone number, AKA Vince Gills. Oh my God. Amy Grant, when I was a boy, I mean in the 80s was my goodness. I mean, she went from Christian music into pop music. She was a crossover. She did it before Selena ever did it. Okay. I mean she was he huge. That was for you. And sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. And we get her number and you would have loved this. I. I call her up and we. This like we're filming it, you know, and I'm pretending like I'm some backwoods pastor. I mean, she's already had a huge career. This is like early 2000s huge. I'm like, this is Ms. Grant, if we could find this footage. She's like, yeah. I'm like, Ms. Grant, we'd love to have you come out. We're doing a tent revival.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And like, bro, I'm just. Now we can't pay you, but we'd love to have you. And she's like, how did you get my number? To her credit, she was so kind and warm. I had her on the phone for at least 15 minutes trying to book her for it. Now this is a four night revival and we're going to need you every night. Now, Ms. Grant, is there any chance convince come as well? We love Vince Gill down here. She's like, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, we get Vince out there.

[B]

So last night when we were watching Vince, who I didn't know was actually part of The Eagles. Now I'm a huge Eagles fan.

[A]

My goodness.

[B]

Obviously not enough because I didn't know Vince Gill joined the team. All I could see when I was watching Vince with that butter voice was thinking about the fact that I just

[A]

completely prank called as I have talked to Amy Grant.

[B]

And then we aired that on tbn. But we never got her permission. Like I never met her before and like she's like, she doesn't know me.

[A]

Was that like.

[B]

We just aired that. Like we like. We like put up a phone. We're like on Nextel's like speakerphone. And she's like just. We just put her audio out there. You can't do that. K. That's illegal.

[A]

Those southern people.

[B]

Watch. Watch a lawsuit come to me now 20 years later.

[A]

All these years later. Hey. So that was you? Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. We've been looking for.

[A]

You're going to be hearing from my lawyer.

[B]

Air my voice.

[A]

Sue tbn. Not me.

[B]

Baby.

[A]

Baby. Wow.

[B]

That.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Stop for a minute. Baby. I'm so. I feel like you and I can start a band. I can't really do the harmonies. I probably have to be the lead vocal.

[A]

I was thinking from the Eagles last night. We should sing. But not a lyric. We should just sing the guitar solo of Hotel California.

[B]

Do it. You could do it.

[A]

I don't remember how it goes.

[B]

When's the last time you soloed a guitar? Because, bro, you got a gift years. You gotta get back up.

[A]

I gotta get back into guitar.

[B]

What's your favorite Eagle song you think? Or at least for what you hear last night, like what was anything make you emotional?

[A]

I. Hotel California. I was really special. I just hate. They started.

[B]

I kind of hated that too. I was like, bro, strong move. But I think they was like, let's just get this going and crack.

[A]

I thought, man, they would end with it. And I think it would have hit me. Desperado was really desperado me last night. That was really beautiful.

[B]

You know what my favorite keyboard, my favorite song is? And shout out to Timothy B. Schmidt for only getting one song. Boom, boom, boom. Hitting that bass, you know.

[A]

That was cool.

[B]

Night Tearing our love.

[A]

I can't believe his vocals. He was unbelievable. Like, they're all like just great sing man.

[B]

But I just want to hear that. Don Henley. I wish you would have done Heart of the Matter. I've been trying to get down to the Heart of the matter but my

[A]

will gets weak he was so good.

[B]

And my thought seems.

[A]

What was the song that he sang? That was his song. The. The Fat Boys of Summer Got the top down, man. That was a great.

[B]

With the Wayfarer. I can hear you. Right? That's a good song. So I don't know why I'm singing on your podcast.

[A]

I apologize. Honestly, it's a gift.

[B]

And what was weird is like when you reached over and held my hand. This copyright infringement. They're take down your YouTube.

[A]

Sorry, YouTube.

[B]

How come you. It was. It was right that moment that jam reached over and laced fingers with me. I was like, j, baby, I'm not going to pray this prayer, man.

[A]

Great job. I'm just sobbing.

[B]

He's like, pray my prayer.

[A]

Pray the prayer is going on. I'm like.

[B]

You're like, that's me. True story. Last true story. Then we'll get back to some real stuff we used to do.

[A]

These questions are off. We haven't hit one of them.

[B]

We used to do a stage show in young adult ministry called the Voice and the Judgment. I mean, you grew up, you know, Pentecostal.

[A]

We kind of like Heaven's Gates Hills.

[B]

Nailed it. I was leading there, but I knew you'd already know the reference. Quickly, give them a 30 second summary.

[A]

Modesto.

[B]

Give them a 30 second summary of what? What? Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames.

[A]

Pastor Glenn, Berto, Miracle, Modesto. They went like a thousand nights in a row or so. I don't remember what it was doing. Heaven's Gate, Cells, Flames. Basically, it's a drama. They scare you into heaven out of hell. I was a demon in Heaven. Gate, Cells, Flames.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

You know, it's these drunk kids driving home from the prom, getting a car wreck.

[B]

It's like, depart from me. I never knew.

[A]

Why did I drink that beer?

[B]

It's effective. I mean, this stuff. I mean, the altar.

[A]

Evans Gates, Hell's Flames, Hell House in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[B]

Down there. This is voicing the Judgment. This is Denny Duran's rendition. And all that to say it closes with Desperado. Desperado is the altar call song. Desperado.

[A]

And Steve and.

[B]

And people just come to Jesus.

[A]

Steve Muncie would do Hotel Hallelujah, which was his.

[B]

We did that at my dad's church.

[A]

And Steve Muncie and one of the Eagles look like twins. That was unbelievable.

[B]

What's true.

[A]

I was all the first. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. That's a. I didn't even. Yes, that's kind of true.

[A]

I wasn't the first to point that out. Sharice Franklin was the first to point that out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

She was at the concert. She took a picture. She goes Great to see Steve Muncie on the. In the Eagles.

[B]

It. It's actually pretty close. Joe Walsh is a wild man, and so is Steve Muncie, for that matter.

[A]

Joe Walsh was amazing.

[B]

This is a fantastic podcast.

[A]

Well, I want to get to some real leadership questions. The first is how. How are Kim and Kanye?

[B]

All right, you got me. You got me.

[A]

Let's call. Yay.

[B]

Real quick. I just love. I just love the.

[A]

Where are you at with Jesus right now?

[B]

I just love the pivots. Like, I want to get to some real serious stuff.

[A]

What. What comes to mind when we quote that Vince Gill song? How does it connect to you and Don Shreve?

[B]

Bro, that got me. Because I thought you were one.

[A]

No, I was watching, like, you were trying to track. The problem is I wanted to open with that, and then we got serious, and I was like, man, how am I going to get to this? But I really want to see in the pod. I really. Yeah, let's open with that.

[B]

How does that hit you?

[A]

And then we'll bring you back.

[B]

I'm going to start doing that, though, like, reading. Reading some ancient poem that, like, you. You need time to digest. Like, how's that hit you? It's like, I don't know what it means, but I was, like, trying to be like, I don't know if you

[A]

know, that's actually in the Song of Solomon. What? John Deere.

[B]

All right, you know, it's a good game. We should start reading Bible passages to people and be like, how's that hit you? Like, I don't know. It's a. That's the Bible. That's. That's Psalms. You just didn't know.

[A]

But what if you open the Bible, but it's actually not the Bible, it's like a lyric from, like, a Jay Z song. And you're like, so here in Psalms. Yes, 47.

[B]

How's that hit you?

[A]

What are you feeling like, bro, if

[B]

you did that to me? If you're like, this is Psalm 47. And it was like, I'd be like, ah, you really want to be, like, answered? I'd probably give some answers.

[A]

Like.

[B]

And you start laughing like, that's not the Bible. That's Jay Z. I'm like, oh, my fault. I would feel so stupid.

[A]

Like, that's Adele, loser.

[B]

Yes. Yes, that's Adele. Okay. That's from her. Her record 27. Okay. My goodness.

[A]

But we are. We. We need to probably wrap it up. So let me. Let me ask you some rapid fires. No, I mean, for you, I no,

[B]

let's get into it.

[A]

By the way, we're just sitting down here. Anniversary weekend, city lights turning eight this weekend. You're here. Let's have a Eagles concert. Vince Gill, sushi last night. Just a powerful anointing. Iced coffee.

[B]

We're just loving the Lord.

[A]

We're gonna go tour the building. Go. Go see it real quick. And then tonight you're preaching. Tomorrow you're preaching. So excited. So just so pumped you're here. Can't believe the church is 8. How old is VU? 10.

[B]

Just hit 10.

[A]

10. So, yeah, we're just 10 years old. We're just 2 years and 80,000 people behind you. Praise God.

[B]

I think you're a full building project completed and smashing it. And this.

[A]

We're just two years behind this guy. It's like, kind of not.

[B]

I think you're four years ahead.

[A]

I'm like, no, we're not. Let me. Okay, but let me ask you. We'll ask.

[B]

I got all the time in the world. I love this.

[A]

Some rapid fires, but, like, get art back in here.

[B]

I need to talk to him.

[A]

Omar. Omar, can you. We have a question for. For a second, cheerleader. Yeah, you could just answer this one. We are at the. Not the studio. What is this called? The video department.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Shout out. Omar El Takore. Thank you for letting us do it here.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

I was. Okay.

[A]

But I am thinking about a lot of guys who are. Who are like five hundred to a thousand. What do you think? What was leadership for you, like, at that phase of the church that, like, was different than. And it needed to be different than now at 10,000. Like, what did that feel like back then? So, like, I guess what I'm saying is, do you run a church of a thousand? Like, it's 10,000, or do you actually embrace that? And because I think sometimes guys are trying to be you or whoever at their level, and I actually think there's probably different levels. I mean, did you find that at that season?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I feel like kind of just a personal story. We both have a great mutual friend, Stephen Furtick, who I love. He's been nothing but great to me, like a big brother. But Steven Furtick is in a different stratosphere when it comes to the things that he's accomplished, the church that he's built, the ministry that he's leading. And so we can go spend two days together and talk and talk shop. And I think we both live really vulnerable and transparent lives with one another. But I always have to leave that meeting going, oh, that was really, really great. But, Rich, you cannot benchmark just because he's five years, six years older than you. This is a story and a grace and an anointing. That's different. So learn and try to discover maybe the principles that you can find, but you can't completely copy all of the behavior or all of the pattern. I remember when we first started in the church, I used to sit down with Pastor Chris Hodges, who I love, and he would tell me something, and then he would say, but you can't do that yet, because the people don't love you yet. Wow. It was really, really insightful because he was saying, 25 years into it, we've built trust, we've built equity. And I think those early years, that's what you're doing. You're laying foundation, you're laying. You're laying concrete and that stuff. You know, right now we're building a building, and it's really funny. Tearing that building down came down quick. We. We tore down a partial part of our building, but we're building 70,000 square new feet. The tearing down went down quick, but now digging the foundation, it's like, bro, everything. A lot of work happened, and now a lot of stuff's just kind of sat. I think building a church or building a company or building anything, it's always about the unseen foundational work. And so I think for me, when I look back on that, yeah, I think every stage in every season, there's different things that you're doing. I think it's good to have a big mindset and think big, but you got to act small, and you got to know what the wins are. You got to know where you're careful to lose. I think when I go back to, like, those early years at different sizes, yeah, like, you got to be a jack of all trades. You got to be willing to do anything and everything, I think to solve problems, to get it done.

[A]

When you said that about they don't love you yet, that I think guys need to hear that not only do they not love you, they don't know you yet. And you haven't done something yet. In the early days, you haven't had a big trust building moment yet. So, like, what I've learned since we moved into the building, people see me different. For a few, I think the building kind of creates that. But I think the other thing that happened is they were like, oh, my God. You said, we're gonna do this, and you did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you stewarded our money that we trusted you with, and you believed God with a vision, and it actually came to pass. So there's a trust I have now to say things, to do things that I didn't have a year ago. This time a year ago I didn't have. It's crazy how I do think guys can get frustrated. They're portable, they're maybe in a. You know, they're young. The church is young. Hasn't kind of had either a big win yet or a big trust moment yet. You can't force it. It actually just takes time. Like, it's actually one of those things where it's like, oh, okay, cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. All right, well, now we trust you. Okay, now we believe you. And it's not that there aren't early adapters or adopters, but it's different now when I walk on that stage than it would have been a year ago walking onto the stage at the high school.

[B]

Well, I think where someone could practically take this is that you need to build trust. Well, how do I do that? By always telling the truth.

[A]

Yep. Tell the truth.

[B]

And then you have to actually be in it for. It's going to take time. So when we try to expedite or circumvent the process, that's already going to be a moment that you're not going to be able to build trust. And so what I'd want to encourage guys with is just even when it comes to vision or when it comes to goals, it's like, play the long game. Teach people to celebrate the process. Show people that you're not going anywhere. Great. Things don't grow overnight, they grow over time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[B]

And so I feel like if someone's listening right now to this, and if they're hearing something, it's not to be discouraging like, oh, you know, stay in your place and don't dream. But make sure that as you're dreaming, that you're creating benchmarks along the way to celebrate. We did this. We said we were gonna do this and we did it. So that's how trust. Trust is built, you know, in drops and lost in buckets sort of a thing. I think a lot of guys, they talk big, huh?

[A]

And they think that's vision. And it's not necessarily.

[B]

No, it's over promising and under delivering. And when you're beginning something, you want to deliver, deliver, deliver, deliver. And point that out. This is what we did, this how we said it. So, like, even as far as, like, starting a church and Then filling the room and starting a second service and continuing to connect those dots, I think is massive.

[A]

I would say too, because I didn't, I didn't have an. An. Like, it's not like I asked this, then had an answer. As you're saying that, I think guys in general, whether they've been going two years or 20 years, they feel the pressure to talk big. Big vision, big vision. I think the way to share vision is through results.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

So look at this person who got saved. Look at these baptisms. Look at this incredible story. Watch this testimony. Look what we're doing. Don't share the vision in the way of we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna. I don't think that moves people nearly as much as look at what your faith is doing. Look at what our partnership is doing. That's the best way to share vision.

[B]

Absolutely. I like how Andy Stanley talks about momentum. He gives like three categories of how you create momentum. Something new, something improved, something improving. And so I just feel like if you're sharing vision, always introducing something new, not always, but seasonally figuring out your system, not always, but knowing what the new things are, that creates a sense of momentum. Like totally building a new building is going to create momentum, engagement, but then improve. Like this is very, very important. Like you did something, make it better, showcase that, hey, it used to be this way. We used to do growth track this way. Now we've improved it. Now the room looks better, now the teaching looks better. Then a culture of improving that things are always getting tweaked, things are always getting adjusted. Those things build tremendous trust and then they inadvertently build momentum. And when you get momentum, it's like going downhill on a bicycle that you had to pedal up, but then you go faster, further with less pedaling. And so momentum. I'm always looking for those little momentum things. Hey, what's going to kind of create momentum? What's going to stop momentum? Even the way we've always done small groups, not trying to go so dense, but it's like we've always had three seasons, on for three months, off for a month. But it's that same thing. It's on and off. Create something new. Hey, we're launching crew. People love that we're launching a brand new location right now. People are pumped. Like it just is an engagement. I think they told me the other day we had 177 people sign up for the launch team. We've got a nine month on ramp for this thing, but 88 of those people do not serve in our church.

[A]

That is wild.

[B]

So that's what I get excited about, because now as we launch something new, there's all sorts of outlets to serve. We need people serving. But as we launched and announced a new location, new people signed up out of that. The majority of them are not even currently serving.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

And so I just always. I'm like, if I'm a young guy out there planting a church or getting started, I'm just always wanting to try to give you real things that you can do that are handles. And I would say you've got to build trust. Am I doing different things 10 years in than I was at year three? Of course I am. That's all comes down to the season. You have to define the season, determine the rhythm. Every season requires a new rhythm.

[A]

I would say that about momentum. Ride one at a time because you're going to need the next one. So my point is very good. In sermons, you can go death by illustration. You have too many illustrations. State, illustrate, apply. State, illustrate, apply.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

What, so what now? What? Right. Okay. My point is, I'll hear guys and they'll go, you know, it's like, da, da, da, da. The moon landing. Da, da, da, da. And you know, and that's like, da, da, da, da. And they'll hit you with like three or four illustrations. And it's like, homie, we needed one. One in a minute, not four in 12 minutes. You just ruined your sermon. You gave us too many illustrations. I'm going somewhere with momentum. Let them. Like, momentum right now for us is Easter. Right? And that's going to be momentum for us. And then momentum is going to be women's conference, and that's going to be momentum for us. And then momentum for us is going to be Mother's Day, and that's going to be another wave. And then it's going to be small groups. And then it's going to be youth camp, kids camp. And then it's going to be men's conference, and then it's going to be small groups, and then it's going to be. Right. So like, don't do all of those in one month. Very good space, because you're going to need.

[B]

Yep. Little accelerators because they only last so long.

[A]

They only last two to four weeks maybe. And then it's like, all right, well, crap, we're not excited about that anymore. So then you got it. You need the next thing. So don't in preaching, don't over illustrate. And in Vision, casting. Let run that momentum and don't over momentum, because sometimes you'll get the church excited about three or four things at once. And then all of a sudden you've run out and you're like, oh, crap, I could have really used another thing next month. Yeah.

[B]

I think what I've learned is there's never like a moment that changes everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And simultaneously, as I say that, this is gonna almost sound like it contradicts itself. I also believe that you can be changed in one moment. You know, I believe in the power moments, but I'm still in, like, I just think in church life, it's like, Vukan was amazing last year. It's not like, we did it and it's over. It's like, we did it and now we. We climb again. And you have to build that into the culture. I think sometimes when guys are starting to church, it's like, oh, we're gonna have, I don't know, this campaign or this guest or this thing. And that's going to be this game changer moment. It's just like, ah, no, you got it. You've got to string a bunch of this stuff together and build systems around continuing to do life this way. And that's why I would try to say, as a leader, you got to fall in love with the process, and you got to teach people to fall in love with the process. You can't just celebrate. I'm really big with our. Our team. We try really hard. I don't love celebrating things we can't control. Yeah, I want to be aware of it, but I don't love when they're like, and we broke five thou. I'm careful with attendance things because I've just learned. I've just done this job a long time. Now is my 19th year of ministry. It's bro. I've had crowds. I've seen crowds go down. Attendance matters. But I really don't control. And I love that old line. If I give myself, if I blame myself for the decline, I'll give myself the credit for the increase. It's God's church. What I do want to obsess about is, hey, what were our team numbers? How were small groups? That's you calling your 12 people in your crew. Like, we can measure that. But the thousands that show up on Sunday, because what you celebrate tends to get repeated, but also inadvertently doing that. What I'm doing is I'm creating a culture that learns to celebrate the process, not just the mere result. Like, we don't always get to control the results, we get to control the inputs. And I think that when you create a culture that way you start to sustain momentum. You start to figure out, all right, momentum. The two lies about momentum. When I have it, I think I'll never lose it. When I don't have it, I think I'll never get it back. Both are a lie, totally. It comes in waves, it comes in seasons. The more you can begin to curate and strategize and use a system, you know, when you have it, when you don't have it. With my friend Bijan, we're driving over here and it's like, I look at my 12 month year and I already know, like, big feelings that I'm gonna have. I know in January I'm gonna get this thing called January energy and the world gets it, too. That's why the gyms are full. But, like, January energy isn't always there in March, you know, like, it usually tends to fade. I want to now leverage that and use that, but I don't want to be completely enamored or lied to from that. It's like, dude, awesome stuff's happening, but there's a lot of January energy going on. I also know what December energy feels like in Miami. We have terrible attendance in December. We're always at the year end. There's a bunch of all of our internal evaluations are taking place. There's a lot of pressure in December, and it doesn't feel great when we're going through it. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I always tell the team, don't quit in December. It's a. Counting Crows had that song. It's a long December.

[A]

Long December. Yep.

[B]

But January is coming. Like, I just, I've Learned that now. 19 years in that. I'm not quitting in December, and I'm also not starting the building project in January.

[A]

Like Andy Stanley said, don't add a service in January and don't take away a service in June. And his point was, like, very good. January ain't gonna last. February's coming like presidents. Like, for us, last week, President's Day and Valentine's Day on the same weekend we got murdered.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We didn't take away a service. You just plow through. You plow through is get through it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And you know, it just. It like, it, you know, the weekend before was Super Bowl Sunday, you know, but January was bananas. But you don't. You just. You keep going. And so I think, you know, I

[B]

think, yeah, teach the team around. That's process. I'm Just going, those are the ways that you can build trust is that when you're coming in, you're not moved by these things. You're stable and consistent. Like, those are massive.

[A]

And I think pastors need to know that too. So that you're, you know, you're building your sermons and your personal energy around momentum moments that you can capitalize on. You didn't have to force it. They're just gonna happen. So, like, for me, yeah, I'm in the pulpit every week in January. Right. But I learned that in December there's so much music going on. We've got kids programs, we've got carols, we've got petting zoos and hot cocoa. And I actually don't really need to be in the pulpit a lot in, in December, so. And it is, it's like, it is what it is. Right. December. So I'm actually going to take next year, the last two weeks of December off. I'm going to do some pre. Film interesting things and then actually take some time off.

[B]

Mark.

[A]

Because it's like they're, they're coming. They're going to like, they're, they're coming in January.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And December is going to be whatever it is. And the east, the Christmas Eve people don't necessarily translate to the first week of January anyway. I just have enough data now to know that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then I know. So, like, we're in big momentum right now. I'm preaching anniversary weekend. It's going to be a big momentum weekend for us. But then I know March is coming, Spring forward, Sunday's coming. I'm just, I'm not preaching it. I just ain't gonna preach it because I know what that weekend is gonna be. Mentally, emotionally. Yeah. Physically, with people's. So it's like, I'm not going to church on spring forward weekend. I'm just not. You have to be, I think, smart enough to kind of like know your, like your own pain points. So I don't know. I think I, I think it's really wise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I, I'll come back, preach us into Easter, you know, and into women's conference and then May. We're going to get annihilated again and I'll take another break.

[B]

You know, I think what's interesting, I think as things grow, oftentimes what people and this happens in all areas of life is that a lot of times we think it's about starting more lists or starting more things, but in the reality, when you're building something that you believe is great or desire to be great. More often than not, it's about removing things. And this can be our calendar or schedule. Like you and I are talking right now, just even about your own current schedule. It's like it's not that you're better than or bigger than. It's just like the season that you're in right now of what you're building is requiring you to remove. It's like it's hard for you to be gone on a Sunday. It's hard for me to be gone on a Sunday. Not because other things are beneath me. It's just more like the priority of what I've said yes to now is dictating what I must say no to. But it starts to be removals. I think what's fascinating is like I'm 10 years in and you're going back to this even kind of starting question like, yeah, I don't know. Year two, year three. I mean, every one of my days is labeled Meeting Monday. This is like eight meetings. Tackle Tuesday was always my study day. Wrap up Wednesday. I'd come in and we would do all of our weekend meetings. Everything for the weekend had to be done on Wednesday. That was just the system. It was just very, very simple language. Think a lot. Thursday. If there was any kind of creative upcoming, I don't know directions of a conference or an event or just writing a song, anything kind of creative that was in the distance. Think a lot. There was a free Friday. That was our Sabbath, semi slow Saturday. Because once a month we do an outreach project day and then Slam Sunday. Even to this day, those banners are still how I live my life 10 years later. However, here's the reality. I have one, only one meeting that I'm expected to be at every week. 10 years in.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Doesn't mean I don't go to other meetings. It doesn't mean I'm just going, there's only one. It's on Monday. So I'm more giving that as a picture. It's like, yeah, I think it's very, very different. And if I felt like there was some other thing I need to be doing, I called other meetings this past week. I'm just going to. There's only one that I'm expected.

[A]

That's like I'm leading this every other meeting.

[B]

Everything else has been your call. Yeah. And it's, it's, we're working through it. It's through delegation. And I can go in inspect and I can participate. But that's what happens when you start to build foundation in this season that we're in. And so I just, yeah, I want to encourage somebody out there, especially that person that's in the thing. It's like, man, you get to lay a culture and the culture is going to be laid by how you behave and who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And ultimately, I always believe that churches are going to take on the personality of the leader that is leading them well.

[A]

And I think maybe we could wrap up with this on that kind of idea. There's vision and there's culture and then there has to be systems. Yeah. And I think a lot of guys, because there's been so much great vision and culture teaching, they've kind of got. They've got some language down and they've got some feel down, but they've got some look down. They've got. But they don't. Their systems are still struggling and that's where the. So like all of our pain points now, none of them are vision or culture. They're all systems. And I think maybe just speak to systems a little bit more because I do think for guys, if you're looking at your organization going, man, look, it feels good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like we've defined some things well, but we're hitting a barrier. It's usually a system issue.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I don't know. You want to talk to that a little bit?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the great quote from James Clear, you don't rise to the level of your goal, you fall to the level of your system. Rich, what's a system? A system is just any mechanism that's delivering the vision. If the vision is being delivered, you got the right system. If it's not, how do I know the vision is not being delivered? It's usually marked with this word called frustration. And I think all leaders have some percentage of frustration. I've heard people give different percentages. 90% of leadership is frustration. I don't know if that's all the way true, but I do know what that means that going, I see this, but this is what's being delivered. There's a gap. And so I'm frustrated about it. So that's where you have to really fine tune with systems. Let me give you a practical story. I was in a meeting literally right before I left here on Thursday. And we're in a new season, we're 10 years in, and our creative department is having some really big kind of turnaround, which is all kind of new spaces for us. Some of our lead graphic designers that have been around for a lot of years have all still part of church. Nothing bad, but just some people exiting staff, and there's some new people in. I think there's a lot of great new opportunity. But, you know, you've got two new kind of junior designers on who've never really designed at vu, who now don't just have an aesthetic, you know, assignment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They have a volume assignment.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so I went to a thing called Team Night, which happens kind of seasonally on a Wednesday night. And just the stuff that was on the screen, it's just like, this might be so boring to someone, but it's just like, font sizes are too wrong. It's. Yeah. I always think when it comes to design, there's two words. It's got to be beautiful, but it's got to be functional.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So you live in both these things. It's beautiful and functional. And I don't think we were hitting on either one of these. Well, this is a perfect example. Like, I can play telephone tag through the. Through the chain of command, or I can go and roll my sleeves up and go and have a meeting. So I had a meeting with one of the project managers and two of these designers and. And the lead, Oliver, who, you know is part of our. It's like, there's five of us, and it's like, hey, we take an hour and we start digging into. Explain to me again now how you're distributing the dozen slides to these five different locations. Okay. So it's one person centralized, making all 33s. We just start digging into the system of it, and right away what we find is like, all right, there's a reason why we're getting some of this output. It's not because you don't understand beauty or you don't understand function. It's because we don't have a system that can deliver this.

[A]

Totally. So we're not.

[B]

We're not, like, firing designers. It's not like people don't know how to design around it. It's like, no, we don't have a delivery mechanism right now for when a spontaneous Wednesday night event takes place. There's no deadline before that. They got all that stuff for the weekend. But when Team Night shows up three times a year, it's very random. It's very kind of sporadic. And when it lands, there's not a on ramp towards it. And so it sounds really simple. Make. Make some background designs, but then the delivery. Totally.

[A]

So system.

[B]

We have to sit there and we have to dig. And so how do you begin to do that. Like, you got to work it until the thing is getting delivered. And I think a lot of people miss this. It's like when it comes to growing churches, these are growing communities. These are people coming in and out, and we've got.

[A]

It's people, people. It's people that makes every.

[B]

And it's working through volunteers. And so you. You want to be simple, but you need culture for all those things. But went to this thing last night, once again at the Sphere. Let's just use it as a contrast. It's perfect.

[A]

Yep, yep. Yeah.

[B]

It's also their 49th time of doing the exact same show, also singing songs they've been singing for 53 years. Three years. So repetition creates reputation.

[A]

Right? Wow.

[B]

Preparation creates any version of spontaneity. There's nothing spontaneous on the stage. We thought there was connections, but it was actually just. No, no, no. This is just. This is called perfection. This is the Sphere. It's got all the resources in the world. Your church, it's going to go to the Sphere and get inspired. But if you leave the sphere going, this is what our church has to have. This. You're fooling yourself. Church is 52 Sundays out of the year. A new program, a new message, a new band member, a new song, new design, new artwork. It's 52 events, it's 52 parties. And I think sometimes when it comes to the creative spaces or the operational spaces, we've got to go and kind of pull these things apart and go, what is it that we're doing each week and how do we grow? And I think it's going to always continue to be about fine tuning, recalibrating systems. And so I'm teaching our team right now, and I'm in this going, hey, we're never going to outgrow the work. If you're thinking this is back to that idea, like, it's got to be process. If you're thinking you're going to build your team and you're done. I've been building teams for 19 years. I've been inviting new people to my house for dinner for 19 years. And if I'm telling myself in my mind I'm doing this to be done, I'm going to be disappointed. You are always in process. The system is always, once again having to get tweaked because it has to stay in that place of improving for momentum to exist.

[A]

Thousand percent, thousand percent. And that's what I would. I would tell every pastor, if you feel like you've hit a barrier, go look, go look at your system, see if there's something broken in a system. Sometimes it's like we're. And then sometimes you're making small adjustments. Like we're about. Right now, we're one Saturday for Sunday. We're about to go two Saturday, three Sunday. I'm hoping that moves and shifts because we feel like we need that attend one serve, one vibe on Saturday. So it's a system. I think, I think we could, we. We keep hitting a numerical barrier. It's not vision, it's not culture, it's a system. So we're, we're going to change service times to better help our serve team. So there's a broken. The Saturday. The one Saturday night for us as a broken system.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So we're going to. But again, you've always got to be tweaking that.

[B]

I agree with the adjustment.

[A]

It's grind. It's. We were talking about that with our video guy, Ian behind. He was getting overwhelmed with some stuff and then I, I was looking at his workload last week and I was like, why do you have these five videos that you got to do? I thought we were talking about one video a month. Why do you have five? Well then come to find out. The small group director.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Sends him two videos that he needs to do that are movies. And I'm like, who approved that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then we cut one of them. Did another one or you know, did one, cut the other one and said let's just use that this summer. We have small groups. Again, we don't need two different videos back to back, you know, on two different weeks.

[B]

Like.

[A]

But again, it was a broken system.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So it was like we put a band aid on it last week. This week we'll actually meet because I'm going, who gets access to you? How do people just send you a work request? They don't get to do that. Someone has to be in front of this 23 year old. Right. Because he's 23. So he's going to go, okay, I guess I need to do it. Cuz that pastor told me I need to do this video. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. But again, it's actually on me. We have a broken system.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because who you know or who told El yes to go do audio for something or you know, whatever. So again it's like, all right, we got to create.

[B]

And I think the thing that's hopeful about this once again, if you're listening is like sometimes the thing that sometimes you're Blaming yourself.

[A]

Oh, it's.

[B]

We don't. I'm not a good preacher or like, sometimes it. It really is just the system. And so it's like giving you an opportunity, like, you can solve this stuff. I. We. We are tearing that building down, and we're in a. We're in a high school right now. Same kind of thing. It's like we went from a permanent location in our South Miami, and now they're gathering in a high school. Yeah, well, the attendance has diminished, as you can imagine, and it's kind of shown up in other spots. But I'm also trying to teach that team. It's like, yo, we're not just maintaining here in this high school. We can continue to grow and have people come out, but we've got to, like, really evaluate. We're in a gym. You can imagine, like, loading into a gymnasium and trying to get good sound. They've got a bunch of obstacles in front of them. However, there are some things that they've got to get right. I left the team at that high school, and it's like, yo, all the parking lights are out. I don't know how to tell you this, but, like, I don't care if you get the sound right. If you're parking in the pitch black in the middle of nowhere, it's not going to be very inviting. Like, oh, well, we never had to check for parking lot lights at the school, and we're not. Once again, we're not in control of that. We can put a request into the school, but we have to put a request in eight times to get. So those are different things. Where it's like, when it was at South Miami, the facilities team took care of it. Now that it's at the school, they've already asked, but you got to ask nine times. And, like, you got to keep pushing to go, how am I going to make sure this thing's improved? Otherwise that's going to hurt us. And so you can keep going. Oh, people don't want to go to church in the gym or you can go. No, people don't want to go to church where they. They have to park in the dark.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, those are two different things. They're two different barriers. But you got to keep fighting this thing. And if I don't have a system now to catch that. But I always try to figure out any area where there's frustration, and this is where we can kind of close it and help people. Because some guys, like, I don't really have vision. Yes, you do. You have vision for your marriage. Yes. You do. What are you frustrated about your marriage?

[A]

Yep. That's your vision point. Yeah.

[B]

Bingo. What are you frustrated with? The church?

[A]

Cool.

[B]

This is. Now, you have the gift of vision here, right? Describe what you do want. Start there. Start with the pain points. And I actually think you'll start to be able to describe what it is that you see. And I am always still blown away, man. Vision gives pain purpose. And if you can keep talking to your team with vision, I actually think they run towards it and it weeds out, you know, the people that want to be there for the right reasons. I'm always trying to talk to our directors with vision. Hey, this is where we're at right now. But I just want to remind you, what I see, what I see, I see it this way. And I've just found for 10 years, people gravitate towards that. People. People want to be a part of something bigger than themselves and greater themselves. And people want to grow. People want to progress. It doesn't have to be perfection.

[A]

I want to know where we're going. Yep. Yeah. We're going somewhere.

[B]

Amen, man.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you. You got to preach a hundred times.

[B]

I can't wait.

[A]

And so thank you for doing this, pod. Absolutely appreciate you. Love you.

[B]

I love you.

[A]

And we're in for a great weekend. And sign up for Vucon.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Let's go. 2026.

[B]

Start promoting that stuff.

[A]

Pastor. Pastor Steven. First verdict. Big deal. That's going to be huge.

[B]

Special.

[A]

Wow. Incredible.

[B]

Be special.

[A]

Love you.

[B]

Run me to the river. You ever do that song anymore?

[A]

No.