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Guest:

Dr. Kurt Gray is an award-winning psychologist and one of the country’s leading experts on moral psychology and political polarization. With a PhD from Harvard university, Kurt is a professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he directs two groundbreaking institutions: the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding. Through these, he explores how our deepest convictions shape society, and how we can bridge divides, and he also serves as an adjunct professor at UNC’s Kenan-Flagler Business School, where he trains future leaders to lead ethically in polarized environments. This fall, Kurt will be the incoming Weary Foundation Endowed Chair in the Social Psychology of Polarization and Misinformation at Ohio State University.

Dr. Gray’s work has been featured in The New York Times, The Economist, Wired, and NPR’s Hidden Brain, and he's spoken on multiple TEDx stages. He’s the recipient of numerous honors including the Janet Spence Award, the Theoretical Innovation Prize, and the Psi Chi Award for Undergraduate Teaching Excellence. His new book, Outraged!: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common Ground, hit #1 in its category on Amazon — *And it’s a must-read!*

About the Episode:

In this conversation, Dr. Kurt Gray breaks down the psychological patterns that drive division in our politics—insights that are essential for anyone working in public service or elected leadership today. He explains why we instinctively cast others as either villains or victims, and how that oversimplification fuels polarization and undermines our ability to build coalitions or govern effectively. We explore how fear—far more than fact—shapes political behavior, and why traditional messaging strategies so often fail to persuade. Kurt unpacks the double-edged nature of moral outrage—how it can unite us around shared values or tear us apart when left unchecked. For those working to lead ethically in polarized environments, we discuss how to create the kind of spaces—whether in town halls, policy negotiations, or public messaging— where people actually feel safe enough to listen, reflect, and shift. From the power of storytelling to the importance of ditching the small talk, and braving deeper questions, Dr. Gray offers science-backed strategies that can help restore civility, rebuild public trust, and lead with integrity in times of uncertainty. Whether you're knocking doors, or sitting in a city council seat, this conversation will sharpen your leadership and deepen your impact.

Key Topics Discussed:

· [00:02:40] Guest/Episode Intro

· [00:07:50] Other Minds

· [00:09:00] “You never understand me!”

· [00:10:20] Learning to Adapt Early in Life

· [00:13:07] Skippy’s Experiences from Across the Globe!

· [00:16:30] What’s the Protection Narrative Here?

· [00:18:50] Fear is Driving Behavior

· [00:21:02] The Apex Predator Myth

· [00:24:40] We are Herd Animals

· [00:26:58] The Trend of Presence

· [00:28:28] Social Media is giving Above Clinical Threshold PTSD

· [00:29:36] What is the right thing to do?: Norms and Morals

· [00:33:48] Statistical Truths Become Irrelevant

· [00:34:32] Rationality, Self Interest and the Breadth of Morality

· [00:36:46] What Do We Lose In the Absence of Safety?

· [00:39:15] Good Choices for Bad Intent

· [00:39:48] What Makes Something/Someone Evil?

· [00:42:00] Humanizing Hitler

· [00:47:21] The Victim/Villan Narratives: Moral Type Casting

· [00:50:35] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP15

· [00:51:30] SPONSOR: ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com)

· [00:53:50] When is Outrage Bad?

· [00:57:40] The Selfish Reason

· [01:00:40] When Disagreement is Unsafe

· [01:02:05] "E pluribus unum"

· [01:03:50] The Power of Trying to Understand

· [01:05:43] It’s a Hard Sell

· [01:06:21] The Power of Stories

· [01:08:15] Better Questions Yield Deeper Connections

· [01:11:00] The Fast Friends Protocol

· [01:13:11] A Herd Species in the Age of Social Anxiety and Fear

· [01:16:15] Moral Creep

· [01:23:07] Step 1: Recognize Shared Intentions/Validity

· [01:23:57] Step 2: Share Your Stories

· [01:25:35] Final Question: Keep Asking Questions to Understand

· [01:29:50] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter) Newsletter

· [01:30:55] Sponsor: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP155

· [01:31:50] Sponsor: ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com)

Key References and Resources Mentioned:

· [00:07:43] Outraged! on Amazon

· [00:31:22] The WEIRDest People in the World, Joseph Henrich

· [00:59:20] The Habsburg Family

· [01:02:05] "E pluribus unum"

· [01:03:05] Daryl Davis

· [01:03:44] Dr. Dianna Smith HOP Episode

· [01:03:47] Remaking the Space B...

Tribal Minds, Moral Lines, and Outrage!: The Psychology of Polarization w/ Dr. Kurt Gray

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