A (3:49)

Well, as we all know, being historians, you pull out a thread and then the story just comes to.

B (3:56)

It's so dangerous. It's. You start with one thing, and then you end up with a million others.

A (4:00)

Exactly. Well, you start actually by kind of diving into the history surrounding our fear of sharks. So what's behind this fear?

B (4:09)

Yeah, that's kind of where the book starts. Right. Is like, ancient times, all the way back to the Greeks. And this. This fear of sharks that has existed since ancient times, and it's really the fear of the unknown is what drives our fear of sharks historically. I talk about it in the book, about how a shark's literal biology and behaviors are what lead it to be an elusive creature that has historically been difficult to study. Right. They. They're lone creatures that are few and far between. They've never fared well in captivity, which means that it wasn't until the 1950s and then again in the 1970s, after the release of the movie Jaws, that sharks were really studied and that the funding was actually there to properly study them. So that means that for centuries, we have fil. In the gaps of our knowledge with our imagination, and that has led to a lot of myths and misinformation.

A (5:06)

Yeah, well, and to dive into the actual kind of meat of this book, for listeners who might be unfamiliar with the 1916 New Jersey attacks, could you kind of describe the social and cultural atmosphere of the summer? What was happening in America that might have influenced how people responded to these events?

B (5:25)

Well, let's see. How much time do you have? Let me tell you everything about America in 1916. Going to be here a very long time. 1916 was such a complex time in American history. I think that's such a great question. Right. Like, why did these events escalate to the level that they did. And so much of that has to do with the cultural atmosphere of the summer of 1916. So for one, we have a. A burgeoning society between the increasing accessibility of personal motor vehicles. This was huge. There was the expansion of public transportation there, the ability for the first time in a long time for Americans to actually vacation, to have leisure time. And so with all of these facets, people were traveling to places like New Jersey resort towns in numbers unlike ever before. And particularly in 1916, Americans had reason to want to travel and get away. Right. The polio epidemic was raging in the city centers, and people were being encouraged by the government to leave the city and hit the coastal beaches where the disease wasn't spreading as rapidly. And then more globally, things are ramping up. You know, with Europe currently engaged in World War I at this point in history, America had not yet entered the war. And our president, the 28th president, Woodrow Wilson, was actually campaigning for re election on that very promise. Right. That he was not going to get us involved in the war. And even with that promise, I mean, things were looking more and more like war was gonna be inevitable, which we know it eventually proved to be true, that it was not inevitable for Americans to get involved. And so again, Americans just had more reason to want to get away and enjoy some leisure time unlike ever before.

A (7:20)

Yeah. And you note that kind of in the aftermath of these attacks, the tourism industry initially tried to kind of suppress the news. So what motivated this decision? And I think kind of a broad question is what does it reveal about early 20th century Media ethics and that growing relationship between journalism, business and public fear?

B (7:41)

Yeah, this is actually one of the strongest parallels between the 1916 shark attacks and the, the book slash movie Jaws. For, for any listeners that haven't picked up on it yet or don't know, it is the, this series of shark attacks that inspired the book Jaws. And again, this is one of the strongest parallels that we see, because in Jaws, if you'll recall, the local government, it's primarily the mayor, refuses to do anything about the first shark attack. He didn't want to alarm the resort guests. He didn't certainly didn't want to halt any money that was coming in from that summer's beachgoers. And that was the same deal in Beach Haven, New Jersey, where the first attack occurred. After the first attack, it was hardly reported, only making its way onto the 18th page of the New York Times in this tiny, tiny little article. I have this picture, picture in the book. I was able to obtain that that spread of the newspaper that day. And it's just the smallest, I don't know if you've seen it is just the tiniest, tiniest little picture. This tiny article. It doesn't even reference a shark. It says that it's a death by fish. And so it's clear that they were trying to suppress that initial attack. In fact, there wasn't even a warning sent out beyond the immediate resort about this attack, which that's pret shocking that this was not spread to other resorts across the coast. But to your question more broadly, we do see this escalate and actually swing to the opposite side of the spectrum by the end of this killing spree with journalists writing up totally fabricated and harmful stories. I, I talk in the book about how we see a similar phenomenon in the summer of 2001. Time magazine actually called it the summer of the shark in due to what they reported was an increase in shark attacks and sightings that year. This was not true that there was no increase in attacks that summer. But because the media was reporting on shark attacks more than they had in previous years, people read the headlines and they believe them. All of this ties back into the major role that the media and journalism plays in stoking fear in the public.

A (9:59)

And I think kind of beyond that immediate panic, how did the attacks kind of change coastal culture or the American relationship to the ocean in the years that followed?

B (10:10)

Zero. I don't mean to say totally zero, because of course there's, you know, isolated individual experiences, but this part is so wild to me. In all of my research, you know, despite the fact that these incidents were so big, they were such a large story that even the London Times was covering it in their paper, the attacks ultimately did very little to reduce the relationship that Americans had with the ocean. In fact, one of the stories that I tell in the book is about a guy that is a witness, a man that witnessed one of the attacks. And he describes it as one of the most horrifying things he's ever seen. And then the newspaper reports that he then like goes and jogs and gets right back in the water after giving that quote. And then even, you know, a year later in 1917 when there's another attack along the Jersey coast, It went largely unreported. So again, you know, it's not true. Everywhere there are isolated individual responses from people that never went in the ocean again. We know from Matawan, the small town, the creek where a shark came in and killed two of the townspeople there. For generations later, parents would warn their Children to never go in the creek. But really, I would say the primary aftermath that we do see, it's not necessarily a change in human relationship with the ocean, but there was certainly a change in our relationship with sharks. Both following the 1916 shark attacks and then again in the 1970s after the Jaws movie came out. We see a really alarming mass shark hunt that ensued. Everyone from the government to your average citizen was out in the waters killing sharks en masse. And so, you know, while our relationship with the water didn't change, by and large, it very much changed how we perceive sharks and our responses to them.

A (12:11)

Yeah, well, and the, you mentioned in your previous response that there was, you know, a couple of quotes that you were, you were delving into from people that, that witnessed those attacks. And I think, you know, this is such an incredibly researched book. And so I wanted to ask, were there any firsthand stories from survivors, rescuers, so on that really stood out to you during your research, that, you know, accounts that really kind of shaped your understanding of how people process this?

B (12:37)

Yeah, this is a really great question. And it's my favorite part about studying history is putting ourselves in the shoes of these people and realizing, you know, these are real life people that existed that have the same thoughts and feelings and emotions as you or I. And the one that comes to me right away when you ask that, it's a poem that was written by the sister of one of the victims. Stanley Fisher was the last person that was killed during this two week spree. And from everything that I've read about him, he was just this phenomenal guy. I actually spoke to his biographer in Matawan while I was researching my book. And his biographer said that that was actually a struggle that he found as he was putting together his book about Fisher, that he just could not find anything bad about this gu. And his character really shows through into his final moments. He was, he was killed by the shark while he was attempting to rescue another. And so his family was just absolutely distraught over his passing. And this one really resonated with me, his sister who was pregnant at the time of his passing. I know that, you know, cause we're personal friends as well. My sister passed while I was pregnant and reading her account just like really hit me and understanding her pain of family not being there, that you expect to be there at the birth of your kids. And she wrote this poem, it's published two years after his passing. And that was something also that, you know, I'm assuming the position she was in, in history. I Don't know this for a fact, but just having been through my own grief journey, understanding why it may have taken her two years to write this poem and get it published really resonated with me. And I actually wrote it down here. Cause I was hoping to share it. It's short, of course, but it just puts everything into perspective that these were like, real people that lost their families in really horrifically tragic and unexpected ways. So her poem, it says, it was hard to part with him, the one we love so dear. The heart no greater pain could feel, no sorrow more severe. What pain he bore, we will never know. We did not see him die. We only know that he is gone and never said goodbye. And it's just like, so tragic, so harrowing and really puts all this into perspective. Right. We. We. And I certainly play into this in the book, right. As this, like, horror mystery experience. But it's also really, really tragic. These people lost their loved ones while they were on vacation or doing really heroic things like saving a little boy from the creek.

A (15:13)

Yeah, well. And I. I really appreciate about this book that there was a lot of humanity in. In this. In this narrative. Right. Like you're telling these events. But. And you do this very well, I think, even in the podcast as well, and all of the other pieces that I've read of yours is you always stay focused on the human story. And so it came through so eloquently. So thank you.

B (15:33)

Thank you. I'm happy to hear that. Because I think that that's why people are not interested in history. Right. Unless you're a history nerd like you or I, is that they think it's all dates and facts and times and places. It's human stories. It's people just like you and me having the exact same experiences that we have. And that's why I find it so fascinating and why I'm so compelled to make history engaging and entertaining for other people as well.

A (16:01)

Yes. Preach, preach. I love it.

B (16:05)

I mean, would you just look at where we're at right now? Our current political, cultural climate. We're repeating ourselves for generations and generations. It's all the same thing. We have not evolved or changed one bit.

A (16:20)

Rachel for president.

B (16:23)

Never. No, thank you. I removed my name. So you write about how there is.

A (16:33)

The line between fact and fiction really gets blurred. So what are some of the most persistent myths that emerged in the press coverage? And how did they distort our public understanding of sharks?

B (16:46)

Yeah. So a lot of it does come from the media. Right. But initially those myths were intended to massively downplay sharks and their capabilities. And I think it's so important to note here that like before I can dive into the press's impact, that so much of that misinformation was coming from world renowned shark experts themselves. Even those who had spent their lives researching marine animals did not have a good understanding of sharks and their behavior and their capabilities. In April of 1916, so this is just a few months before the attacks took place, three of the world renowned experts wrote in a scientific journal that sharks had no interest in humans. And even if by chance they did come upon a human and just happened to bite the human, that their jaws weren't even strong enough to sever bone. It's wild, right? With our, our hindsight and our understanding of sharks now. But they genuinely didn't believe this. And so much of what the press was perpetuating at the time was information given to them from the experts. Even as the attacks were taking place, these experts continued to backtrack for some time trying to place the blame on other marine animals like dolphins or sea turtles or whales. And so that's what the media took and ran with. The media played a really large role in these myths. Like I shared earlier, you know, initially they're kind of suppressing the accidents and then it ends up flipping and they end up reporting some pretty egregious myths. One being that the body of lester Stillwell, the 11 year old boy that Stanley Fisher was saving from the Matawan Creek, they reported that his body had been found in the belly of a shark, which was not true and caused the family even more heartache as they were searching for his body. These myths continue into modern times. Right. Like I shared earlier, the summer of the shark in 2001 was a similar phenomenon in which the media distorted the truth.

A (18:53)

Yeah, well, and so when do we kind of see this shift, right? We go from kind of downplaying, they really aren't capable of doing this to this kind of being of malevolence and an intentional killer, like really just hunting people down. So when did that kind of take hold in the American imagination?

B (19:12)

Yeah, interestingly, it's gradual and it, it culminates in the release of the movie Jaws in 1975. And the reason for that is, although the 1916 shark attacks were a big deal when they happened, they do start to disappear in the midst of so many larger events going on in American history at the time. And in the following years, right, we have the epidemic, we have the world war, the women's suffrage movement, the Roari twenties and so on and so forth. Jaws, however, genuinely changed history. I write in the book how monumental the movie was. It broke the record of over 100 million at the box office in just two months. It eventually earned over 470 million worldwide, making it the highest grossing film of all time. It continues to rank in the top 10 best films ever made. It became the first summer blockbuster and really set the standard for the way that summer movies are marketed and distributed to this day. This was so fascinating to me as I was doing my research that prior to Jaws, the summer had kind of summer months had kind of been relegated as like, that's your dud movies. Just like no one's watching movies in the summer. We'll throw our bad movies during the summertime and wait for a big release in the fall. Jaws changed that. Like, the reason we have these big summer blockbusters are now because of Jaws. And I, the vast majority of people that I know have seen Jaws. But even if you haven't seen it, like, everyone has heard of Jaws, right? Like, I don't know anyone that hasn't heard of Jaws. But the same cannot be said of the 1916 shark attacks. And so obviously, Jaws had a larger impact on the narrative surrounding sharks being these intentional killers that's derived from 1916. But again, we start to kind of lose some of the. The more salacious pieces of 1969 as the years carry on. I think I, I mentioned this in the book and I jotted it down here because I really wanted to talk about it with you. How big Jaws was resulted in it getting its own term. Like a University of Sydney professor, Christopher Neff, he coined the term the Jaws effect. It's a term that he used to describe precisely how the movie and influence the perception that people have of sharks to this day. And this effect has three tenants. One, the belief that sharks intentionally bite humans, two, that human shark encounters are always fatal, and three, that sharks should be killed to prevent future attacks. That really summarizes the distortion that these attacks, you know, the, the 1916 attacks and then, and eventually particularly Jaws, has played in reshaping how we perceive sharks.

A (22:12)

Yeah, well, and talking about perception, I think the other thing I am curious for your take on is we have the 1916 attacks, then we have this huge summer blockbuster as you're talking about, kind of inaugurates the term summer blockbuster. I know why Jaws resonates with me. It's one of my favorite movies. I always tell my husband, we know it's summer because I'm Starting to watch Jaws.

B (22:35)

I love that.

A (22:38)

Do you think the movie. How. What made what do you think Jaws? Why Jaws resonated so much with so many people?

B (22:45)

Yep. I. I love this question. Cause I think you hit it right on the nose that people were primed to fear sharks. But maybe without full clarity as to why. And Jaws once again filled in those gaps. It. It made these elusive, mysterious creatures that had historically been shrouded in fear into real life, human eating machines. The groundwork was already there. But Peter Benchley, the author of the book Jaws, and then Steven Spielberg, the director of the movie, are what catered to that fear that was already lying dormant.

A (23:22)

Yeah. It's an incredible movie, folks. If you could look at it from, you know, 50 years past, I had.

B (23:29)

A feeling, even though you and I haven't chatted about this, because I know you're a big movie buff, I had a feeling that you had an affinity for Jaws. I could already tell.

A (23:36)

Oh, yes, definitely.

B (23:38)

I mean, if you love movies, you love Jaws, it stands the test of time. It is an incredible movie.

A (23:45)

Yes, I agree. I agree. Well, and speaking of Peter Benchley, he is the author, as you mentioned, of the book that inspired the movie. So how did Benchley's influence, or how did Benchley influence America's perception of sharks? And how has that evolved? Because even his perception has kind of shifted over the years.

B (24:05)

Yeah, that's a really great question, and I love to talk about this. This kind of the evolution of Peter Benchley. Right. And his perception of sharks. The answer of how his book shaped perception, I think kind of goes hand in hand with the movie. His. His book was a massive success, similar to the. The movie. It was an immediate bestseller. It was on the New York Times bestseller list for 44 weeks. But even as successful as his book was, nothing is as pervasive as the film. Right. That he directly contributed to. And he really did himself evolve over time. When he wrote the book, he had no idea the massive impact that it was going to have and the way that it would quite literally change human perception of sharks. He later acknowledged this misinformation and dedicated a large chunk of his life to shark education and conservation efforts. He actually was quoted as saying if he were to rewrite the book all over again, that he would portray the humans and not the sharks as the villains. Because he saw how pervasive the misinformation was in his book and the subsequent movie and the way that people respond to that with mass killing and other shark prevention efforts.

A (25:31)

Yeah, well, and that's a perfect segue to my, my next question which is, you know, we've, we've touched on this a little bit in our conversation and you, you write about have kind of become the predators and sharks really the prey. So can you kind of elaborate on how cultural fear threatened or translated, excuse me, into real life ecological harm?

B (25:53)

It's pretty devastating the real world impacts that Jaws had on sharks. Several countries, primarily Australia and South Africa, have adopted what they call shark culling programs. There are oftentimes inhumane practices that lead to the capture and murder of hundreds, sometimes thousands of sharks every single year. Several of these beaches have shark nets that are set up in Australia. It's several of their beaches have the nets through the months of September through April. In some of the beaches across Queensland, the nets just stay up all year long. And what these nets are, right, they are intended to capture sharks before they may reach bathers. But they're the only these huge large nets that are placed in a body full of marine life. And so what inevitably happens is that you also capture and kill other species that are not on their quote unquote target list. The Humane Society International actually found that more than half of the marine animals captured in these nets, animals like dolphins, turtles, whales and other non threatening sharks are killed as a result. A lot of these countries also implement something called drum lines. I, I don't know, you've seen them, they're awful. They are these baited hooks that are attached to a buoy as well as an anchor which leads to sharks who take the bait actually ending up with a hook pierced through their skull. Even more devastating is that these drum lines are not even placed near the shore. Right. They would be dangerous to humans. They're not placed near the shore where humans are generally swimming. So then their use feels even more unnecessary and heinous if they're not even placed where humans are bathing. You know, to kind of summarize, there is of course a need for safety. You know, if humans are going to be engaging with the ocean, we do need to be safe and practical. But with today's technology, there's so many other ways to go about it. Much more humane ways. There's drones, alarm systems, tagging and tracking systems, education and all that. That's always going to be the most safe, most safe, effective and really the best route when we're approaching safety from.

A (28:15)

Sharks and reducing the harm across the.

B (28:18)

Board and reducing the harm, you know, it's really, really tragic and really inhumane.

A (28:23)

Yeah, I will say, you know, I know some People watch Jaws and had an intense fear of sharks. I think that that movie really helped me just become fascinated with them. And so I remember Discovery Shark Week and before it became a little, I think, a little crazy commerc.

B (28:40)

I, I'm so glad you said that because that is something I mentioned in the book. I don't remember the stat right here off the top of my head. But, you know, as, as much as I'm talking about what an negative impact Jaws had, it also had a really positive one. Directly to what you just said, that so many people became fascinated with sharks and watching Shark Week. And again, I, I don't remember the exact stat, but there's a percentage of people that, had they not watched Jaws, would have never been fascinated in sharks and learning about sharks. And so many people that do watch Shark Week care very much about conservation efforts. Yes, it's not all bad. It's actually many times there's, there's a much more positive response than negative nowadays.

A (29:22)

Yeah, I'm happy to be a part of that statistic.

B (29:25)

I love it. Yep.

A (29:27)

Well, and you know, one of the things you do in the podcast, and I think one of the things that comes through in this book is, is kind of connecting the past to the present. And so how can understanding this cent century old event kind of help us reimagine our relationship with the ocean and its creatures today?

B (29:45)

Yeah, I mean, these, these events were shocking because they were unprecedented. They highlighted how little humans knew about sharks and their capabilities up to this point. And now that we know more about sharks, we can see the ways in which human activity influences animal behavior. What these events also demonstrate was the large role that the media plays in projecting sometimes a single narrative, but hopefully the overwhelming message that we take away from the 1916 shark attacks and subsequently JAWS is shifting us away from the concept of fear and certainly of domination and hopefully shifting us more towards, towards respect and coexisting.

A (30:37)

Yeah. And you know, there's so much that's covered in this book. But I'm, I want to ask you, what do you hope readers ultimately take away from the real Jaws?

B (30:48)

The main thing that I want readers to take away from this book is that the ocean is the shark's home and not ours. I make a note in the book to avoid using the phrase shark infested waters. I hate that phrase because there's no such thing. There's no such thing as an ocean that is infested with sharks. It is quite, quite literally their home. And so it's our responsibility as humans to respect that and to use our caution and educate ourselves about the best ways to avoid a shark attack. All of which is in my book. And, and I have a whole section in the book about the dangers of sharks going extinct. Right. Like the. The marine ecosystem quite literally depends on the existence of sharks. Our very way of life.

A (31:30)

Yeah.

B (31:30)

Continuing to exist as is. It doesn't exist as is without the presence of sharks. And so my hope, the number one takeaway from this book is that while sharks are these, they are dangerous to humans. Right. But they're also beautiful and, and magnificent. And the ocean is their home, not ours. And we need to learn how to respect and coexist with them as opposed to dominate them, whether that be through force or even just through perception and fear.

A (31:59)

Fear, definitely. Well, and as kind of hinted at in my introduction, you are a busy, busy, busy woman. We haven't even scratched the surface of all of the things that you have.

B (32:11)

Yeah. Going on at the moment.

A (32:14)

But I do want to give you an opportunity. Where should people go when they've finished your book and they want to learn more about you and the work that you do?

B (32:22)

Thank you for that. I would love if you all would check out the podcast. It's history. We're on Instagram at History Score Podcast. Our website is history-pod.com that's where we put out bi weekly episodes about niche obscure topics all throughout history. That is really a. A major passion project of mine. I love the podcast. I would love if you would jump over and check me out there. And then if you're interested in more of my work, more of my writing, the best place to go is my website. It's Rachel Le Perez.com or I'm on Instagram at Rachel Lee Perez Author. Those are good places to check out out upcoming projects that I have. You know, political articles I'm writing where I'm screaming about our current administration, things like that. But also I don't mind sharing since I am in the presence of a bunch of history nerds on this podcast. I'm sure that my next two projects are a small book about Dorothy Auente. She was a female serial killer here in Sacramento. Her house still stands because it's part of the historic registry here in Sacramento and can't be bulldozed, which is so crazy because she was burying people in her backyard and that still stands. It's. It's close to. This is so crazy. Now I. Let's just derail this whole conversation about. Talk about Dorothea Puente. Anyway, that's One of my, my upcoming projects. And then I am also currently writing a book about the Salem Witch trials.

A (33:47)

I saw the Instagram preview and I was like, I think I know what that is.

B (33:51)

Oh my gosh. Let me tell you, it is a little stressful. There's just so much. As opposed to, as opposed to the 1916 shark attacks, I am finding complete opposite challenges. Whereas I was writing the 1916 shark attacks, it was difficult to, like, gain to get information. There isn't that much outside of, you know, a few newspaper articles and some personal accounts. The Salem Witch trials. I'm like, am I in over my head here? There's just so much. Why did they have to record everything? Every, every examination, every court hearing, Everyone was written down in awful English. That's very hard to understand.

A (34:33)

You'll be able to navigate it.

B (34:35)

I'm working on it.

A (34:38)

Okay, well, we've kind of covered a lot of ground here, but, you know, simultaneously have only kind of scratched the surface. So is there anything we haven't talked about that you want future readers to know?

B (34:49)

There is one thing. I realized that throughout the course of us talking, I hadn't actually even addressed, addressed, like the stats related to the likelihood of a shark attack. I think that that's really important as we are pushing back against these major pieces of misinformation that persist. So I just wanted to share with your listeners. The chances of being attacked by a shark are 1 in 11.5 million, and the chances of being killed by a shark are less than 1 in 264.1 million. You're. You're more likely to be killed by a coconut falling out of a tree and hitting your head than by an attack by a shar. Um, so I, I just wanted to share that really quickly that I, of course, still think it's very wise to have a healthy respect of sharks and their capabilities and to not engage in any activity that would provoke them. But I think along with that healthy respect should come some healthy perspective about how unlikely it actually is to be attacked by a shark in the first place. I just wanted to make sure I shared that with everyone, uh, with a book called the Real Jaws and a very scary great white shark on the COVID of it. I do want to. To lay some perspective that it is very unlikely the, the probability of being attacked by a shark.

A (36:05)

Wonderful. And a great, great way to, to end this conversation. To the listeners out there. I highly, highly recommend picking up a copy of the Real Jaws. It's fast paced, it's incredibly researched, and it gives you a niche history that you might not otherwise be aware of that influenced generations and still influences generations, I'd argue. If you have any interest in sharks or pop culture, I cannot recommend the book enough. Also, please check out History. It's one of the podcasts in my normal rotation. I absolutely enjoy Rachel and Leah's deep dives into all the conspiracy, controversy and corruption in United States history. So thank you again so much Rachel for coming on and chatting about your book.

B (36:50)

No, thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

A (36:53)

My thanks again to Rachel for sharing her time with with me. And for the listeners out there, be sure to pick up a copy of the Real Jaws so you can learn all about the attacks that fateful summer along the Eastern seaboard and how they influenced generations to come. Thanks peeps. I'll see you next time. Thanks for sitting down with me as I explored this chapter of American history. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. I look forward to our next cup of coffee together.