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Civics & Coffee: A History Podcast
Revolutionary Sound: Dr. Austin McCoy on Living in a D.A.I.S.Y. Age
01:09:28
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Civics and Coffee, a history podcast. The show all about United States history delivered to you in the time it takes to enjoy your morning cup of coffee. I'm your host, Alicia, a historian trained in United States history with a passion for telling both the known and unknown parts of America's past. So grab your coffee and get ready for some bite sized history. Welcome back everyone. I am so thrilled that I finally get to release this conversation into the world. Several weeks ago, I sat down with Dr. Austin McCoy to discuss his book Living in a Daisy Age, which on the surface is a book tracing the history and legacy of the hip hop group De La Soul. However, as you will hear in our conversation, Dr. McCoy's book is so much more than a musical history. It's an exploration of culture, labor rights, race relations, and what it was like coming of age in this era of hip hop. It is a book that I think defies genre. I hope you all enjoy our conversation. Hello everyone. Joining me today is Dr. Austin McCoy. He is an assistant professor of history at West Virginia University, specializing in African American history, labor history, social movements and hip hop culture. He is also the author of Living in a Daisy, the Music, Culture and World De La Soulmade, which will be the focus of our conversation today. Welcome, Dr. McCoy.
- [01:37]
B
Hi, Alicia. Thanks for having me.
- [01:40]
A
Thank you so much for joining me. And let's dive into this incredible book. So for those who may be unfamiliar, who was De La Soul and what inspired your research into the group?
- [01:53]
B
Yeah, so De La Soul is a rap group that formed in the 1980s that comprises of Kelvin Pastanous Mercer, David Trugoi, the Dove Jalacor and Vincent Maceo Mason. And then of course, like they worked with Paul Husted, AKA DJ Prince Paul. But the members of the group, right, the three members of the group, Maceo Pasanus Trugoi, you know, the principal founders of the group. And they formed in the, in the, you know, mid to late 1980s. You know, this was a time when, you know, there are a lot of rap groups, punk groups that were forming, breaking apart, and some of the members of De La Soul had been members of, you know, other rap groups that didn't really get off the ground. Maceo encountered Prince Paul or met Prince Paul, you know, first encounter and sort of he introduced Prince Paul to the other two members of the group. You know, all of them are from Long island, right? I mean, so like they were all. Weren't born in Long island, but they're all, you know, but they all were raised in Long island. And yeah, you know, like 1986, 87, 88, the group takes shape and they begin to record some of their singles that, you know, end up on three feet high rising, which comes out in 1989. The story behind me writing the book is I'd always been a fan of De La Soul. I've always been a fan of hip hop, culture, rap music. And I feel like it was sort of my first research interest, you know, I mean, so before, long before I ever thought I'd become a historian, you know, like rap music and sort of, you know, listening to it, reading all the magazines, paying attention to the history, paying attention to all the news, that was sort of the first, you know, I feel like that was like my first intellectual endeavor. And it wasn't just me. You know, many of my friends in high school were doing the same thing. We were always sort of, you know, listening together, debating who was better and debating which albums we thought were classic. And, you know, so that sort of laid, you know, the immediate foundation. And I'd been tweeting about, you know, David JalaCour's passing in 2023, and an editor reached out and asked if I would be interested in writing a book. And I thought it was an amazing opportunity, so I took it, and that's sort of when I began to start that writing. But, you know, the other piece, too is I teach hip hop history as well. You know, I taught it when I was at Auburn University and I teach it here at West Virginia University. So, you know, that's also a piece of inspiration as well.
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A
An incredible syllabus that you published online, if I remember correctly.
- [04:32]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:33]
A
Yes. And as you mentioned, the. The group is kind of built their lives in Long Island. So how did the group's geographic origins kind of inspire their technique and lyrical choices?
- [04:46]
B
Yeah, I mean, so when we think about the history of rap music, we tend to think about, you know, the five boroughs, you know, in New York City, especially hip hop, starting in the Bronx with Clive Campbell, DJ Kool Herc, and the party that his sister threw, the Back to School party his sister threw Cindy Campbell. So we tend to think about, you know, South Bronx, you know, Queensbridge, you know, Queens, generally, Brooklyn. But then Long island had its own sort of developing hip hop culture. You know, of course, you know, some of the music and the practices were coming from the five boroughs, but whether you had, you know, De La Soul, Biz, Markie Rakim, Public Enemy. Right. I mean, like, so, you know, they. They were from Long island as well. Epmd. Right. I mean, all these artists that were pop up, you know, in Long island. And when it comes to De La Soul, it seems that the suburban aesthetic, right? I mean, they really embrace it on songs like Potholes in My Lawn, right? I mean, so sort of the metaphor of, you know, De La Soul trugoi imposta News sort of constantly sort of, you know, filling in the potholes. And when they talk about filling in the potholes, they're talking about trying to get rid of, you know, subpar rappers who are in the culture, right. I mean, and yeah, taking care of one's lawn is, you know, very much of a suburban, you know, a suburban thing, right. I mean, so like, that's one direct inspiration behind, you know, the, the sort of. The sound and the aesthetic of at least 3ft high and Rising. But then also you sort of hear it in the, in the content, right? I mean, like, they still talk about what's happening in the inner city, but they're talking about what's happening around them, right? I mean, so like, you don't get the sort of very graphic, violent depictions of, you know, day to day life like you might when you listen to Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Flies. The message, you know, so there's that piece. And then of course, Long island, you know, Pasta News talks about how like he grew up close to like Jerry Seinfeld or I mean, like. So like there's this sort of cultural diversity, you know, whether it's black folks, white folks, Jewish folks, you know, so they're growing up sort of in that environment and in that context in as well. So obviously growing up in New York City in one of the five boroughs, you're all. You're also living in a very diverse context. But this sort of suburban, you know, layout in that history and black folks, you know, living in suburbia and growing up there is something that one, not too many of us who don't study metropolitan or urban history may not think about. Of course, those who do, you know, are well aware of this phenomenon of black suburbia. But then also when we think about the history of hip hop, we also, you know, don't think about black suburbia.
- [07:33]
A
Yeah. And I think one of the themes that kind of comes through the book a lot is De La Soul's kind of always challenging the norms. And one of the kind of early things that they do is. Is kind of challenging what it means to be a rapper. So in what ways did De La Soul kind of challenge what it meant to be a rapper? Especially in the late 80s?
- [07:52]
B
Yeah. So I think with like you can, the first thing you can do is go to me, myself and I. Right. I mean, like, that's sort of always been my exhibit, my exhibit a or Exhibit 1. And you watch the video and you know, it's. Yeah, Pasta News, Maceo and Trugoi. They walk into this classroom and they're full of other. Like in this classroom it's full of other people who are dressed like Run dmc, Eric Bean, Rakim, LL Cool J, right? I mean, so like they're all sort of wearing, you know, either sort of, you know, these Adidas tracksuits, tangle hats, big gold chains, and they might be wearing like the big glasses that DMC wears. And you sort of see like what hip hop, you know, is sort of looking like in the late 1980s, you know, if you, if, you know, watch them walk into the classroom. And then of course them three, they look, you know, different. They're wearing button down shirts and they're Apostle News, obviously is wearing, wearing glasses that he raps about and he. And they're wearing, you know, peace medallions and African medallions, right? I mean, so like they're, they're walking into rap music. Like if the classroom is rap music at that time, they're walking into rap music, you know, looking very different. And they also sound different. Like, I mean, their delivery is, at least on that song is more deadpan. It is more calm. They're not yelling like, you know, Run DMC or, or LL Cool J when he first came out in De La Soul. They are sort of articulating their own language, right? I mean, so they're one of the first groups to sort of not necessarily engage in rapping abstractly and sort of what I mean by that is putting together verses that are sort of just riddled with double meanings and metaphors or don't seem to mean anything. Right? I mean, like, that's sort of what abstract rap can be. So like they're doing all of this and they are coming in with a, you know, a new sound and a new aesthetic. And then the other sort of layer to them challenging what's taking place in rap at the time is, you know, they're more willing to be more irreverent, more vulnerable, more playful as well. Right. I mean, so I think, you know, the whimsical or the whimsicality allergy of the, of the first album is something that also sets them apart from, from those who are like Big Daddy Kane, right, Who's sort of the first seen as one of the first sex symbols in rap music. Right. I mean, so, yeah, they're sort of setting themselves against and apart from just about everyone else who's popular at the time.
- [10:22]
A
And maybe expanding a little bit on that. Can you talk a little bit about how maybe they complicated and expanded definitions of black masculinity?
- [10:31]
B
Yeah, definitely. I mean, so if you think about some of the stereotypes especially that were, you know, circulating about rappers as, you know, being hard, obviously, being violent or sort of, you know, this sort of picks up more into the 90s, sort of, you know, you'd have folks who would, you know, claim that rappers were glorifying violence. You had. Yeah, Ice T, nwa, Right. I mean, like, you had sort of gangster rap sort of bubbling up. But even though gangster rap was, you know, a lot more complicated than that, it was, you know, it wasn't just. Yes, it had its, you know, very problematic aspects when it came to, you know, rapping about violence, you know, you know, including misogynist lyrics, but it was also very political. Whereas with De La Soul, yeah, I think this, you know, idea of being willing to be vulnerable, to be more emotionally open, I wouldn't necessarily say that they were like the most emotionally open rap artist, but it was more so than what, you know, we had sort of experienced or what she had experienced as a fan when sort of thinking about, you know, how they would rap about, you know, being, you know, sort of, you know, anxious about, you know, sort of living day to day on songs like Tread Water, you know, which is a, you know, sort of great song, which is a fable. But then also. But yeah, and the rapping, you know, about trying to survive. But they're rapping to, like, other animals who are talking back to them, right? I mean, like, so De La Soul is willing to sort of, you know, get more vulnerable. And especially when you move from three feet high and rising to De La Soul is dead. You know, they also are sort of presenting themselves, like, where I would say the sort of hippie aesthetic or the Daisy aesthetic, Right. And Daisy referring to the inner soul, y'. All. Right. In this idea of, you know, being as authentic as possible in your art, De La Soul basically kills off, right? Their. Their initial aesthetic because of the perceptions that they were. That they were hippies, that they were sort of just strictly peace loving and sort of these ideas around the counterculture and them sort of embracing the day glow, embracing the bright colors, meant that they were also, quote, unquote, soft, right? I mean, so, you know, they challenged us on De La Soul is Dead by killing off the daisy and also rapping about some of the times where they gotten into fist fights with, with people because people tried to test them because they thought that they were, you know, soft black men, right? I mean, so, yeah, they, they were always sort of treading this boundary between wanting to be authentic, vulnerable, but then also feeling like they needed to protect themselves and sort of not wanting to be pigeonholed as, you know, just black nerds. Even though they made it acceptable, right, to be weird and nerdy throughout their career.
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A
Yeah, well, and kind of looking at the, the music and analyzing these albums, you write quite beautifully that Three Feet High and Rising is utopian and it's sonic anarchy and lyricism. So what about this album made it such an act of defiance?
- [13:38]
B
I think, you know, one, you have the production of the album, right? I mean, and them sort of incorporating as just scores of samples into the music and sort of. So on the one hand, right, I mean, like, they're, they're rebelling against, you know, the production that mostly relied upon like James Brown or some of the older break beats that, you know, that had, you know, become popular in rap music and in the late 1970s, early 90s, you know, whether it is sort of like disco based or electronic based, De La Soul sort of expanded the sonic palette of rap music. So, you know, they're sampling, they're. They're sampling, you know, Parliament Funkadelic, they are sampling, you know, 80s R&B, it's pop. But they're also sampling, you know, Schoolhouse Rock, Liberace, right? I mean, like, so, like they're bringing in all these sources, you know, in a way that is similar to the Bomb squad of, you know, Public Enemies production team or even the Dust Brothers and the Beastie Boys on Paul's Boutique, right? I mean, so I consider, you know, Takes a Nation A Million To Hold Us Back by Public Enemy, Paul's Boutique, Three Feet High and Rising as sort of like cousins, right? I mean, they, they all come out around the same time. They employ this sort of collage sampling. But De La Souls, you know, I think, you know, sound is brighter, right? I mean, like, it's more brighter, it's a little more upbeat. You know, Public Enemy, like, they're about noise, right? I mean, so like they're bringing in various sources, but it's like, but they're trying to sort of create something that is like jarring to the ear. The Beastie Boys sound on Paul's Boutique is a little more subdued, operates on a lower frequency and is, you Know, and becomes a sort of progenitor of other especially west coast artists. I don't think you get like DJ Muggs or DJ Shadow without Paul's Boutique. Whereas, yeah, Three Feet High and Rising, it is just like. It is just bright as the COVID of the album. Right? I mean, so you get that. And then like I said, De La Soul's deploying their own language. But then of course, they are elevating the rap album to high art in a sense of, you know, like it is organized around a theme. It's organized, you know, it's organized around a, you know, a concept, you know, the game show. And then there's like all these skits or what Prince Paul refers to as bugout pieces that sort of stitch these songs together, you know. And these skits are mostly comedic, you know, on this album. And they are laying the foundation for other artists to do, you know, to sort of create more theatrical art pieces in rap music. Whether it is N.W.A sort of incorporating more skits on their second album or even Wu Tang into the. Into the 36 chambers. They do so as well, right? I mean, so like 3ft high and Rising is something that is. It's an album that is, you know, bucking all the trends in rap music at the time. It is also sort of creating, you know, making rap into art in a way that, you know, previous albums had not done before. And then, yeah, like, it's just. Is an album that is. Has one foot in sort of reality, you know, and another foot in just surreality or fantasy in the sense of having songs, you know, like Tread Water. You see, you watch the video and listen to Potholes in My Lawn. Right. I mean, that sort of feels very surreal. But then you also have them addressing the crack cocaine crisis on say no Go. Right? I mean, which is also a sort of interesting, you know, CL of topics and sounds in a sense of like. There's a couple of critics who call say no Go like the most danceable anti drug music or anti drug song out there. Right. I mean, so they lost. So they're doing a lot on this album. But then it sort of comes together and it, in this sort of joyousness of the album, stands in stark contrast to the Reagan era in this sort of the growth of more inequality. All of the violence surrounding the. The war on drugs, the violence that's taken place in inner cities, the sort of cuts to social services and job programs coming out of the Reagan administration. But then also obviously the sort of, you know, the racism that is still percolating in the United States, whether it is through policy or through racist policing and some of the, you know, police and vigilante killings of black folks, especially in New York city during the 1980s.
- [18:02]
A
Well, and kind of what this book does quite well is that it's not only kind of an analysis of De La Soul's catalog, but it also kind of does a broader analysis of kind of the evolution of music and hip hop culture as well. And so you kind of highlight how the 1990s was a pivotal moment for the rap genre. So what was it about the era that made the music so such a powerful force for so many?
- [18:32]
B
Yeah, rap music very much matures, right? I mean, in the 1990s in a sense of. And. And not necessarily in the content, of course, or the lyrics, but in the sense of you have. You just one have a. An explosion of rap artists and rap groups in the 1990s. And rap is sonically, you know, more diverse. Right. And so going into the 1990s, obviously you have gangster rap that is still emerging. You have ghetto boys and rap coming out of Houston, and soon enough you're going to get outcasts coming out of. Out of Atlanta. So, like, hip hop is spreading more geographically at this time. You have scenes popping up in Detroit and Chicago as well. But then, yeah, like, you begin to see sort of a splint. Like, I don't like a sort of splintering is too strong of a word because it sort of suggests that. That these sub genres aren't related in any way. But no, you have rappers who begin to sort of adopt a more sort of jazzy sound. Right? I mean, so A Tribe Called Quest is Low End Theory. The Far Sides Bizarre Ride to A Farce to the Far side. De La Soul sort of plugs into this as well with Balloon Mind State, obviously, like I said, gangster rap, you have sort of more east coast boom bap with KRS1, Wu Tang clan dropping into the Wu Tang 36 chambers sort of just opens up a different type of rap music that is influenced by what they thought was sort of like Far east culture, Asian culture, you know. So rap music is sort of, you know, like there are. There are to choose from in terms of artists, you know, in terms of genre. You know, you have, you know, more female rap, more women rappers who are sort of coming in like Queen Latifah, MC Light, you know, later on into the decade, Lil Kim, Foxy Brown. So it's like, yeah, you have sort of just this expansion of the genre and more record labels that are investing in it, whether they are signing rappers themselves, like Columbia signing Nas or sort of signing record companies, you know, like Interscope eventually doing with. With Death Row Records, or even, you know, the formation of more independent record labels, you know, like, you know, Bad Boy Arista. Right. I mean, so you just have this expansion of the genre and an expansion of the rap industry. In some ways, you know, you do have some doors that begin to sort of close when it comes to sort of rappers, you know, producing more politically themed albums. Right. I mean, like, you'll still have, you know, politically themed tracks, but by the, you know, by, you know, 1993 and into the mid-1990s. Right. I mean, we see less obviously, NWAs, less public enemies. Ice Cube is, you know, not rapping about politics as much as he did in 1989, 90 and 91. Right. I mean, so you have some, you know, I would say, you know, negative changes when it comes to the genre as well. And then, of course, we get to the mid-1990s in the, you know, what I basically have been calling the rap wars. I mean, I wish I could think of a better term for that, but it's just like a term that just doesn't focus on the. The rap beef between the Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur. In Bad Boy Records and Death Row Records, you had a bunch of rappers in New York City who were going after each other. You had rappers, you know, in the Midwest who were going after each other as well. And then, of course, you know, with the, you know, with the conflict between Tupac and Death Row and. And Bad Boy and Biggie, there were very much like gang and street elements that were involved in that as well. Right. I mean, so in that situation, it was a lot more than just about the music. And it was probably, you know, the murders having, you know, a little less to do with the music than, you know, sort of like either Tupac's affiliations, you know, and Death Row's affiliations with gangs in Los Angeles. Right. I mean, so, you know, this. This moment, people sort of like to think back on and sort of think about how it changed hip hop. Very complicated and also a, you know, very much a turning point in the history of the genre and the culture.
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A
Yeah, well, and so we have this shift in the genre. It's kind of maturing. And we have De La Soul's sophomore album, which you kind of describe as kind of a stark departure from their debut. So how was it different and kind of what motivated their approach?
- [23:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, so De La Soul is Dead comes out 1991, my favorite de La Soul album. Like, and I don't know if that's ever really going to change. Even though, like, you know, like all their albums. Like, I just, you know, that album is special to me. And no, like, when you go back and listen to the first album and the last song on the first album is called Daisy Age, right? I mean, and it's sort of a declaration, you know, that, you know, De La Soul is not only has not only entered into the classroom that is rap music, but it's here to stay in. It's a daisy age. Which implies, right, that you're going to be living in De La Soul's world. So, you know, you get to the end of that album, you hear that song, you're like, wow. Like, you just assume that there's going to be more to, more of this, you know, more of this style to come. And then you pick up De La Soul is Dead and you see the, you know, the knocked over flower pot, the, the album cover is not as colorful and you see the title of the, of the album and you're just like, well, what's going on here? They are, they, you know, they are killing themselves off, right? I mean, like, that's the question that you ask yourself. And at this time in the late, in the earth, in the late 1980s, early 1990s, you think of, you think, well, how many successful rappers and rap groups just completely go back on what made them successful? You really can't find many, right? I mean, like, you don't really start to see this until later in the 90s with some artists like Outkast, right? I mean, so De La Soul, they wanted to challenge their prior, their, their style and their aesthetic. Because in some ways the marketing strategies of Tommy Boy Records were almost too successful, right? I mean, so Tommy Boy Records, you know, really, at least according to the members of the group, really like, capitalized on the Daisy aesthetic and Trugoi, Maceo and Pasta News, you know, sort of got tired of, you know, constantly, like taking pictures and being around, you know, a bunch of flowers all the time and constantly being asked whether or not they were hippies and asking if or sort of having to sort of confront sort of, you know, the expectations of producing another three feet high and rising. And you sort of hear this on songs like Pass the Plugs where, you know, true Boy sort of references Tommy Boy asking if they would give them another say no go, right? They're sort of having to confront what really Made them or what endeared them to so many fans and critics. And they had to confront fame. And how they did so was, well, we're just going to, you know, actually go back and just basically kill off the daisy. And we're going to present ourselves in a sort of more. They're still presenting themselves as complicated black men, but sort of what they incorporate is a little more hardness in a. In a willingness to sort of rap about some of the conflicts that they get into on the road. They rap more explicitly about more serious topics. So Millie Pulled a Pistol on Santa is about a young woman who experiences sexual violence at the hands of her father, and she ends up murdering him while he is playing Santa at a local Macy's. You know, Pasta Noose raps about his brother being a drug addict. My brother's a bass head. Right. I mean, so like, they're rapping more explicitly about more serious topics. Their lyrics are a little more sarcastic. They're rapping about fighting. And also, like the album in itself, again, another concept album where it sort of follows a few, you know, a few young men who find a copy of De La Soul is Dead in the trash and they start listening to it and they start, you know, dissing De La Soul. Right. I mean, like, so. But De La Soul is like, even dissing themselves on the album as well. Right? I mean, so, no, like, one of my favorite albums, like, in. I just feel like it sort of builds on three Fein Rising in that is a little more theatrical. And I think that album sort of lays the foundation for more theatrical concept albums that we would see later on, whether it is like Prince Paul's the Prince Among Thieves, Kendrick Lamar's Good Kid, Mad City, or even Hamilton, I believe. Right. I mean, like, I think this album. It's hard to sort of think of those albums and not think about De La Soul Is Dead.
- [27:21]
A
And I think this has kind of been a theme in our discussion thus far. But what are some of the ways that De La Soul kind of challenged the mainstream?
- [27:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, whether it is their first album and they are sort of challenging the dominant black masculine aesthetics of rap music that is, you know, embodied by Run dmc, Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, the Fat Boys. And then you get to De La Soul is Dead, which is. No, like, they're challenging themselves, which is, again, rappers aren't doing this. Right. Rappers aren't going off and sort of, you know, killing off what made them popular. And then you get the balloon mind state. And they do adopt a more jazzy Aesthetic and, you know, they invite members of the James Brown's horn section play on the album. But they songs like Ego Tripping Part two, you know, De La Soul is really sort of making fun of, you know, popular rap music at the time. This, you know, in this song especially, video gets them in trouble with Tupac, right? I mean, like, because Tupac Shakur believed that Ego Tripping Part two, the video was making fun of I Get around, right? I mean, like, so that. Which was like, to one of Tupac's first big commercial hits, right? I mean, so when you watch Ego Tripping, you sort of see Trugoi is driving in a Mercedes Benz, you know, pulls up to this. To this mansion where there's this party going on. And you know, like, they are, you know, sort of, you know, spoofing, you know, what they, what they thought was, you know, sort of the emerging materialism or really the false materialism in rap music. Right. I mean, so, you know, they were sort of. They were sort of ahead of the curve in 1993, you know, with that, with that song and video. And then you get to 1996 with stakes as high, and that's when they basically launch a full sort of frontal critique of rap music that's in the mainstream. So they're criticizing gangster rap, they're criticizing the materialism in rap music. This album is not uncomplicated or sort of it's. It is problematic in a sense of the ways in which that Pasta News addresses, you know, some of the women rappers on one of the songs on that album as well. Right? I mean, sort of criticizing the way that they decide to dress, you know, and it's just like, so like they are sort of taking aim at a lot of different styles of rap. What they see is going on. Trugway the Dove sort of, you know, says like, I got. I got issues or questions with you if you're ready, you know, if you're ready to die. Right? And that's obviously a paraphrase, but it's also a reference to Notorious B.I.G's first album, Ready to Die, Right? I mean, this sort of, you know, this death defying black masculinity that we see in folks like Notorious big, Tupac Shakur, other gangster rappers who are, some people would say glorifying violence, you know, and, you know, some others would say that they're talking about the violence that they see around them. Right? I mean, so obviously there's a conflict there. But no, like, you know, gangster rap continues to attract the ire of you know, politicians, black leaders. But then. But in this case, within rap music groups like De La Soul, right? I mean, so stakes is High is sort of the culmination of De La Soul's vociferous critique of mainstream rap music.
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A
And of course, they've always had a little bit of a rebellious streak, as evidenced by their digital email campaign for their catal during the rise of streaming. So can you talk a little bit about this and kind of what it meant for the group and the music industry?
- [30:59]
B
Yeah, so this is one of the reasons why I started the book with talking about teaching or trying to teach and talk about De La Soul in a. In the streaming age. So, of course, for much of the 2010s and up until 2023, De La Soul's catalog was not available on Spotify, Apple Music, or even itunes at the time. Pandora, right? I mean, like, so their Tommy Boy catalog, their first six albums, if you. The only way you could listen to it is maybe there might be songs still floating around on YouTube or if you kept the physical copies, if you had physical copies and you kept them or you had sort of downloaded them at some point. So in 2014, early 2014, they announced that they basically have a present for all their fans. And, you know, they asked their fans to sign, you know, sign up on this email list. And so, you know, I signed up a couple times. You know, even I still own, you know, the physical copies. It's like, of course, right? I mean, so. And then on Valentine's Day, they sent out, you know, basically MP3s or zip files of, you know, their first six albums, and they made them available for free. And, you know, this was in the era where we, you know, where folks are talking about breaking the Internet and sort of this is what happened with De La Soul. I mean, it's like so many people signed up and tried to download their. Their albums that it crashed servers. Right? I mean, so this was obviously in rebellion against their. Their circumstances with not having control over their master recordings and their music. So Tommy Boy had owned the rights to their music for a long time. They sold them to Warner Brothers. Basically, Tommy Boy sells its whole catalog to Warner Brothers. And then at some point in the late 2010s, Tommy Boy reacquires De La Souls, De La Souls and other Tommy Boy records music. Right? I mean, so what ends up happening in response to this email campaign is that Warner Brothers issues a cease and desist, Right? I mean, which is very ironic, right? I mean, like, asking the artists who own you Know, who created their art to cease giving away their own art. So like that, that highlights the levels of irony and exploitation within the music industry in a way that only De La Soul could do. But then it also really kicks off this campaign. You know, that's one sort of a public campaign. Mobilize their fans in order to support them and reacquiring the rights to their music. But then of course, this sort of legal. In this legal campaign, right? I mean, because again, like the, the dispute sort of centered around basically who had to sort of incur the risk of being sued if anyone who believes that De La Soul sort of wrongfully sampled them, you know, decides to take them to court, basically. And this sort of stretches back to the conflict between De La Soul and the Turtles. So De La Soul samples a song for the Turtle from the Turtles and the Turtles. Basically, it's a skit, right? I mean, so it's that they don't even rap on this song, right? I mean, transmitting live from Mars. They don't rap on the song. It's just a slow down version of, you know, a. A song from, from. From the Turtles. So De La Soul claims that they. That they sort of sought to clear the sample. And you know, usually when artists are sampling other artists and other sources at that time, they would have to fill out this form listing the name of the song. And then, and then of course, like the record label would sort of go find the publisher or the owner of the song and try to get the song cleared. They lost all claims that they tried to get the song cleared. Tommy Boy says that De La Soul never did. Right. I mean, so like that was sort of an early moment of. Of conflict between De La Soul and Tommy Boy. And then this carries into the 2000 and tens where Tommy Boy Records is trying to find ways to put their music on streaming. But they want De La Soul to have to foot the bill if anyone sues them, right? I mean, like, it. Foot most of the bill. So, you know, like De La Soul obviously is not happy with this arrangement because I think their arrangement at first was sort of a 9010 split in profits basically, with Tommy Boy getting 90% and De La Soul getting 10%. And obviously that is just completely imbalanced. And so, yeah, this sort of kicks off, right? I mean, this, this fight between Tommy Boy and De La Soul, which is resolved, you know, because you have like sort of firms and other corporations, you know, another corporation stepping in and buying De La Soul's catalog and basically, you know, giving De La Soul, it's catalog back. You think about what happened with De La Soul and sort of the streaming situation. You know, you think of other artists who have had issues with their catalog, like Taylor Swift, right, who goes back and rerecords her albums, right. I mean, in order for her to sort of the rights and revenues to her music, it exposes the problem of streaming generally and sort of, you know, if you are a consumer, you're basically just renting access to music. You don't sort of have, you know, you don't own, so to speak, the music that you buy. So of course you have much of recorded music in the palm of your hand. But the trade off is, well, a record label could just pull an artist's album or a, an artist can pull their own songs and albums from, you know, from Spotify, for instance. So like, you know, like there's that trade off that you have. Whereas like if you have the ability to own physical media, you don't have to experience that trade off. Or if like some, you know, or if some services of Amazon services goes down, right. I mean like listening, watching tv, watching movies, right. I mean like you don't get access to that. So De La Soul situation sort of also help expose the limitations of the streaming economy and the streaming model of, you know, music consumption. And in some ways you listen to Cabin in the sky that's, you know, it's in the same sort of vein of their other albums as being, you know, these long concept albums. And you could argue that Cabin, then the sky is also sort of challenging the streaming model of music production because music production has also changed due to streaming because artists are putting out shorter songs, shorter albums. You don't get as many skits. And De La Soul said, no, we're still going to put out our 20 track album in 2025. And, and we're going to give you a full, you know, we're going to give you our way of sort of putting together a full piece of art. Right. I mean, so their sort of rebellion sort of even extends into the present moment.
- [37:47]
A
Yeah, well, and that, that kind of goes to their, their Kickstarter campaign, right? So, yeah, talk about the, the De La Soul Kickstarter campaign. What motivated that decision? And kind of, you know, they always are kind of redefining success. So what did success mean for them?
- [38:05]
B
Yeah, I mean, so they launched a Kickstarter campaign like soon after they launched this email listserv in sort of, in this effort to sort of get their music back or at least their Tommy Boy catalog back and yeah, like, so Kickstarter, I mean, because I feel like we hear less about Kickstarter now. I mean, I mean, it's basically at this point, I mean, like, obviously crowdsourcing is still a thing with, you know, folks having to sort of go fund me and services like that. Kickstarter, you know, I think it still exists, of course, and it's this platform for artists especially to be able to raise money in order to fund projects. And you know, what artists will do is sort of, they will create a page explaining, you know, their projects, explaining the vision of what they hope to do. And De La Soul was really the first major rap artists to do something like this. I believe TLC had also sort of started their own campaign because, I mean, speaking of industry exploitation, you know, they had gone broke, right? And of course we, when we think about artists, quote unquote, going broke, we think of, you know, artists who are being irresponsible with their money, Right? I mean, but it's like, no, like TLC was just trapped in an incredibly exploitative contract, right? I mean, so like, TLC is sort of, you know, they're raising money in order to sort of, you know, try to continue their careers and to raise some revenue. De La Soul is. Their circumstances are different in the sense of they're like, we want to see if we can get more buy in from, from our fans. But then also it would give De La Soul a way to sort of have more control over the recording, have more ownership, control over the music. But then also it was a way for them to give back to their fans as well, right? I mean, so if you sign up for their email list, you would get these updates about their Kickstarter campaign. So like, when they launched it, they raised, I think like more than $600,000. You know, like, it was like an, it was an insane amount of money for a Kickstarter campaign at that time, right? I mean, and I think their, their goal was, I think, like low six figures, right? I mean, like, it wasn't like super high, right? I mean, but they exceeded it within 48 to 72 hours, which obviously still demonstrated De La Soul's central place in rap music. And fans love for the group. So they raise all this money and what they do with this money is they basically use it to fund the creation of and the anonymous nobody, right? I mean, so it allows them to hire a band that plays on the album. They. They do these jam sessions and De La Soul will like sample these jam sessions. It allows De La Soul to, like, bring in more mainstream artists, right? I mean, so, like, this is the album where they're collaborating with folks like Snoop Dogg, Usher, Jill Scott, right? Like, artists we wouldn't necessarily have thought that they would be willing to collaborate with in the 1990s, right? I mean, so, you know, they're doing this. They are using this. These resources. They. They use these resources to produce a couple of short documentaries, you know, about, you know, their history, and then also the recording of the Anonymous Nobody. And, you know, they use, you know, these resources to, again, sort of, you know, sort of fund these, you know, rewards for fans who might have donated, you know, X amount of dollars. Like, you could go on a, you know, you can go, you know, shoe shopping with Dave, or you can, you know, go to be a VIP at a De La Soul show, or you can sort of buy some memorabilia. Like that, you know, is sort of rare, right? I mean, so they mobilize these resources in a way that helps expand their community, right? I mean, which is very interesting, right? They're not just taking the money and saying, we're just gonna produce this album and we're gonna be done with it. Like, they use it to actually build and expand community, fans of. Of them and of rap music. But then also, they. They use this. But of course, they use this money to produce an album and in a bunch of singles and a couple documentaries. And this album, you know, before Cabin in the sky was the latest album that De La Sole came up, had. Came out with, and it comes out in 2016. And no, I think up until that point, that was their most personal album to date.
- [42:28]
A
Well, okay, you spend this book analyzing De La Soul's songs quite deeply, thinking about their entire catalog. Which do you think is their most important contribution to the genre and why?
- [42:42]
B
Okay, so album. I'll start with album. Album. Three Feet High Rising. Of course, even though De La Souls is my favorite album, Three Feet High and Rising, I mean, it just opens up so many doors and so many paths within rap music. Like I said, 3ft high rise rising, it influences Nwa Wu Tang clan. It influences, like, Bob Deep. Like, it influences Lil Kim. Right? I mean, like any album that is a concept album with. With a bunch of skits. Three Feet High and Rising is one of the main progenitors of that, you know, but then, of course, you get. It's hard to get artists like Outkast or Missy Elliott without De La Soul in this album, right? I mean, so, you know, I would say this. I would say that, like, There's a reason why the Library of Congress, you know, sort of incorporated that album, you know, into the registry in terms of song, I mean, because I feel like that's also, like, implicitly part of the question. I think, like, their. Their most important song. Like. And of course, this could change, you know, day to day. I. I'm gonna say I am IB Right. I mean, and it's a song that appears on Balloon Mindstate. And it's. It. It's a very personal song, at least from Pasta News's perspective. And Pasta News raps about having a daughter. Some of his other personal. Personal situations. He's rapping about some of the tensions within the Native Tongues collective, right? Which is De La Soul, Tribe Called Quest, Black Sheep, Queen Latifah, Moni Love, you know, Jungle Brothers, right? I mean, like, so, you know, he's rapping about some of the tensions on. In his first verse. He's also commenting about the exploitation of how the rap industry and the music industry is. Exploits black artists. So, like, his first verse on that song is, I think, one of his best verses generally, and one of the. I would say, one of the better verses in rap music. And it's probably underrated if. If you ask people, like, so what are your 10 favorite verses? This verse may not. May not appear on a lot of people's top 10 lists, but I think it's important because it demonstrated that De La Soul was willing to be a lot more introspective. They weren't just joking around, or they weren't just rapping about being hard, or they weren't just, you know, rapping about situations that were happening to other people. Posthumous, at the very least, was willing to rap about how he was feeling at the time, what he was feeling, and taking stock of where he was as a young, but sort of a young black man who was sort of considered like a veteran in rap music, right? I mean, like, you know, they were well into their 20s at the time, and when you're in your 20s in the. In the early 90s, it was thought that you may not have a career past that, right? I mean, so I think that song, in addition to, like, all the shout outs at the beginning, you hear, like, Q Tip's voice, Moni Love's voice, Bob Power, you know, who is, you know, a legendary engineer who just passed away in the last week, like, you hear his voice, right? I mean, like, so in a way, like, you sort of get much of the Native Tongue family, but the song itself is about at least Pastanus's verse is about himself and him sort of sort of letting all of us know sort of how he's feeling. So I would like right now, that song, to me, I think might be their most important.
- [46:02]
A
Well, and how does knowing the story of De La Soul help us kind of understand the evolution of music broadly and. And hip hop specifically?
- [46:11]
B
Yeah. I mean, so on the one hand, with De La Soul and thinking about the sort of broad evolution of music, on the one hand, right? I mean, like, I feel like 3ft high and rising especially, but 3ft high rising. De La Soul Is Dead and Blue Mind State are sort of like these portals, right? I mean, so in Portals into the past in some ways, right? I mean, like, so the ways in which that they are either drawing from one of the oldest, you know, genres of American music, which is jazz, or sort of sampling using their first few albums. And they're sampling, you know, music from the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and the 80s and even the early 90s, right? So, like, you listen to the first three albums and you're at least implicitly receiving a. A history of music generally. And of course, as they're sampling and taken from all these sources, are producing something new, right? I mean, so in some ways, right, like, you get these three albums that are a portal to the past, but then also they let us know what's gonna happen in the future. Where you begin to see more sort of conspicuous sampling, right? I mean, from Sean Combs and his hitman group of producers, you begin to continue to see more fusion of genres, right? I mean, like, I think De La Soul Is Dead is incorporating house music, rock, punk music, R and B, you know, like, I mean, so it's incorporating so much. And of course, like, the rap rock fusion thing was not new in 1991. I mean, Run DMC had pioneered this. But De La Soul is also collaborating with alternative rock groups like Teenage Fan Club in the early 1990s, right? I mean, which is anticipating the, you know, more of the rap rock, you know, sort of collaborations that we see in the. In the late 1990s, you know. And then, of course, you just think about the ways in which, you know, just artists across genre are sampling, you know, rap music, you know, past pop music, past R and B music, right? I mean, like, so, you know, De La Soul helps sort of set the foundation for contemporary artists, artists in the 21st century of doing this as well. And then I think when it comes to rap music, more specifically, De La Soul, they established the. They set a Precedent of, okay, we're gonna be a group that does not produce the same album every time we release an album, right? And obviously with the shift from 3ft high rising to De La Soul is Dead, this establishes this. But then, yeah, we get, you know, we get Jazz in Blue Mind State, more Boom Bap In Stakes is High. We get, you know, sort of a throwback to sort of more, you know, old school rap. Slash incorporation of other artists in. In. In the first Artificial Intelligence, the Mosaic Thump album, we get more R and B, you know, and more quote, unquote, neo soul on AY Bionics. We get. And then, like, the Grind Day is sort of another throwback, but they're collaborating more with J Dilla, right? And then the Anonymous Nobody, right? Like, they. They use a band, right? I mean, so, like, all the albums are different, right? I mean, and we could think of other artists who have sort of replicated this outkast, right? I mean, like, Southern Playlistic Cadillac music is not the same as Atleans, is not the same as Equimani, is not the same as Stinkonia, right? You know, like. Or you get sort of these out of the box albums like Missy Elliott's first album, you know. You know, it's hard to sort of think about, you know, Pharrell and the Neptunes without thinking about De La Soul, of course, Odd Future, Tyler, the creator, like this sort of collective with Tyler the creator of Earl Sweatshirt, you know, you don't get. It's hard to imagine them without De La Soul, Tyler, the creator's discography, right? I mean, like, he gets to a point to where it's like, you know, he goes on a run where, like, all of his albums are different. He's. And he's. He's explicitly trying to do something different on every album. You know, like I said with Kendrick Lamar, Good Kid, Mad City. But then you get to Peppa Butterfly with. To Peppa Butterfly, which is very jazz inflected, right? I mean, like, so it's like you can sort of see De La Souls fingerprints, you know, throughout. You know, rap. Dochi's latest. You know, Dochi's album, Alligator Bites Never Heal, right? I mean, like, it's a concept album. It's an album about dealing with personal and emotional struggles, therapy. It's hard to sort of listen to that album and not think about Three Feet High and Rising and also not think about songs like I Am Ib. Right. Where Pasta News is getting personal, right? I mean, so a De La Souls, you know, Family Tree, so to speak. Is huge. And it just continues to grow because there's just a lot of artists where you're just. It's hard to not make the connection because you're probably going to find some aspect of De La Soul in them.
- [50:59]
A
Well, and shifting the focus from De La Soul to the author a little bit, you. This is a musical analysis, and it is a cultural history, but it's also a little bit of a memoir. So I. I want to ask you, you know, could you share the motivation and kind of thought process behind incorporating some of your personal story into the narrative?
- [51:24]
B
Yeah. So when I was thinking about, you know, when I was sort of planning to write this book, and I. I sat down and I. When I was writing the Proposal, I basically just started with my reaction this to watching the Stakes as High video for the first time. And it just made sense. It was like, what does De La Soul mean to me? You know, and, you know, there were. I would say there was sort of a intangible reason for this, like, which is sort of like, you know, when I think about music and the power of music, it's typically personal, and it could also be communal as well. Right? I mean, so, like, there's that piece, and then there was. There was an aspect of this that was practical in the sense of. Outside of my friends, right? So outside of my friends, family, people who might follow me on social media, like, who am I? Right? Like, who and who am I to write this book, Right? I mean, like, this isn't me sitting down and writing a book based upon my dissertation. Although someone at some point might write a dissertation on De La Soul, right? I mean, so they may not feel that they have to sort of include a justification for doing so. Whereas for me, it was like, well, this is coming out of nowhere. So for some people might come out of nowhere. So, like, how am I the one who's going to do this? And especially when a lot of music writing is, you know, mostly done by, you know, you know, trained and experienced music critics, trained and experienced journalists, you know, there. You know, there was. You know, there's been a couple of De La Soul books that have come out before mine even, like, you know, Marcus Moore's High and Rising is one that comes to mind. I wanted to sort of show people, you know, how, like, what my relationship to the group was. Right. In addition to trying to think about them historically and analytically. Right. I mean, and, and. And in doing so, it was me wanting to, on the one hand, give, you know, sort of acknowledge that I'm an outsider, so to speak, compared to some other people who write about music. But then on the other hand, it would have been hard for me to write this book or to write a book about a group I love so much without including how I felt the first time I watched Stakes as High or listened to Stakes as High or listened to De La Soul is Dead or sort of thinking about the ways in which I grew up listening to De La Soul's music. So even when they weren't as active in the 2000s, I was still listening to them. Right. I mean, and obviously, I was having my own personal experiences, good and good and bad. Right. I mean, so, no, I wanted to sort of give folks an understanding of my education as both a rap fan, a student of rap, and of course, student of history generally, and a student of politics as well. Right. I mean, so, like, yeah, that I was trying to do both of these things. Right. I mean, like, on the one hand, I want to. I want people to sort of know what, like, how music has shaped my life and shaped me as a historian. But then also it was also a way to say, okay, like, you know, it was also a way to justify me writing this book and letting folks know who might be more experienced, might be a lot more of an experienced critic than I am. Where I'm coming from, too.
- [54:38]
A
Yeah. I felt it was a nice grounding theme throughout the whole book. Right. You know, because there's so, you know, you are covering so much ground. You're looking at this group, you're looking at the cultural history, you're looking at the music history, you're looking at this evolution. So it's a huge ask. And so I felt kind of the infusion of the personal story to be kind of a nice grounding tentpole throughout the whole book.
- [55:05]
B
Thank you.
- [55:06]
A
I thought it was well done.
- [55:07]
B
Thank you.
- [55:08]
A
So you're also, again, because you are doing so much throughout this whole book, you are also kind of tracking the evolution of media throughout this book. So from records to digital streaming. So, you know, I'm just going to pick your brain. In your opinion, what was the best format and what do you think might be the next iteration of media?
- [55:28]
B
It's a good question. I mean. I mean, if you look behind me, like, I have, you know, all these tapes and CDs, right. I mean, so I know that the audio file is going to say vinyl. Right. Which, you know, I totally understand. I. I feel like the best format for me was the format I. I had basically growing up, which is like CDs especially, right? I mean, like, I love tapes and you know, like, there's something about, you know, one with tapes, you can make mixtapes, which is something I love to do, you know, growing up. But CDs, obviously, you can skip, right? You can skip to your favorite song. It's easier to replay a song. You know, you can, you can have, you can have more CDs, right? I mean, like, you know, I have a bunch of vinyl, but at a certain point it's like, okay, I might have to like, get a bigger place, right? I mean, like, so at some point, like, vinyl collecting is amazing, but it's also expensive too, nowadays, right? I feel like CDs, you can own more of them. They're not as expensive like, I think they, they could be. You know, if you are sort of like, I'm going to try to clean my CDs, they might be a little easier to clean, right? They're more portable. Obviously, you can get a discman still, like, or find a discman. You probably have to go on ebay, you know, and, and you can still carry CDs around. And then of course, now, like, I mean, I think when you get the CD burner, when the CD burner comes into play, like, I mean, I still have hundreds of mixed CDs from the 2000s. Like, hundreds. Like, I don't even know what to do with them, right? I just feel like the cd, you get the best of both worlds, right? I mean, in terms of, like, you could still even have, you know, CDs that have, you know, the, the, the designs on them, right? I mean, like, so you get that piece, of course, the liner notes that you get with, you know, if you get vinyl, right? I mean, so like CDs, best of both worlds, like, they scratch, but tapes can break. And when tapes break, it becomes very, you know, sort of onerous to try to like, sort of fix it, right? I mean, so, yeah, for me it's CDs, but I know the audio file is going to say vinyl.
- [57:31]
A
Do you dare guess what the next music iteration, the next form of music might be?
- [57:37]
B
I mean, that's a great question because. No, I remember there was that time, I think it was in the mid to late 90s, right? I don't know if you remember this where like Sony tried to do the mini disc.
- [57:49]
A
Yes, I do remember that.
- [57:51]
B
And I remember thinking like, wow, that looks cool. And then it's. You go to see how much they cost and they're like 30 bucks. You're like, wait, what I'm not gonna bite. I'm not gonna buy this for, like, $30. And then, like, the mini disc player would, like, cost like, hundreds of dollars. And you're just like, you know, like, you're just looking. You're like, yeah, I don't think this is gonna work, right? I mean, like, it's just, you know, and it didn't work, right? I mean, like, so, like, there was like that gap, whereas it's like the mini disc was just like. They tried to do it, didn't work. And then it's like. And then we ship and then it was like, like, as this is happening, the thing that we don't know is coming is the MP3, right? Like, that's the thing that comes and that really sort of ushers in, you know, this disruption in the music industry. And, yeah, like, I feel like, you know, the. The event, like the sort of. The creation of the MP3 and the sort of popularizing that is obviously what put us on a path towards streaming. Because streaming is sort of the. The compromise and the. And the solution to. Well, you know, we need to stop all the pirating of music. We need to stop all the leaking of all these albums that plagued the 2000s, you know, that, you know, frankly, like, many of us, you know, sort of benefited from in many ways, like, saved a lot, save some money, right? I mean, but so, like, what's coming next? It's a great question, because either it's. It could either be something digital, right? I mean, in the sense of, like, okay, something, again, that. Where we are. That we are able to sort of hold as much music as we can in the palm of our hand, or what we've been seeing is a sort of resurgence in people going back to physical media, right? There have always been vinyl collectors. You go to antique stores, you go to these record conventions, you go to Goodwill, and you start to see more CDs, and you go to some music stores, you're starting to see more tapes. There are more places that are selling more DVDs and Blu Rays, right? I mean, so I feel like we. We are in this weird moment where it's hard to say what's going to come next. But there's a lot of people who are going back to old forms of media because they. They feel alienated by the streaming model, right? Whether it is Spotify and them really pushing AI playlists, AI artists, AI music. But then, of course, their relationship to problematic institutions and organizations or the fact that, yeah, like, if you are doing Amazon Music or Something like an Amazon goes down, you don't have access to the music or to what, or to what you want to watch. Something similar could happen with Apple, right? I mean, and no, I remember it took me a long time to even go to Apple Music because I remember seeing someone talk about how Apple Music sort of like would just like gobble up their whole music collection. Like, I was like, what? Like, no, I'm not doing that. You know, I mean, so it's like, you know, it's just like, I think we're seeing like there are more and more people who want a more sort of tactile experiential. They want more experiential engagement with media and with culture. And I think, yeah, artists who are now sort of re releasing all their music again, special editions on vinyl, CD tape. Artists who are releasing new, their new music on all these formats. And there's something communal about going to record stores and sort of buying music and being around a bunch of other people who are buying music. I feel like we're in a weird moment where it's like, yeah, like people are going backwards, but then also people also being alienated from streaming but still using it because it is sort of the, probably at this point the cheapest way to consume at least music. And of course, yeah, who knows? Like, I mean, something is probably obviously in the works and we just don't know about it. Right? I mean, like, we like. So it's hard for me to even imagine because I'm like, what could, what could go beyond having, you know, most of the music on your phone? Like, I don't know, I guess there has to be some other device that allows us to do something similar. And if I could answer that question confidently, I would stop being historian and I would probably, you know, go somewhere and just like become a psychic or something because I have no clue what could come after, after streaming. Right? I mean it, it, it would have, like, I, I just don't know.
- [62:08]
A
I know historians are, are, aren't in the business of, of guessing the future. I get it, I get it, I get it.
- [62:13]
B
Yeah.
- [62:14]
A
So what do you hope readers take away from this book?
- [62:18]
B
I mean, so I hope readers, if you pick up this book, you know, I hope that you would sort of, you know, be curious about De La Soul as a rap group and what makes them so important in the history of rap music and in, in the history of music. But then also I would hope that, you know, readers would sort of think about this group and you know, all artists in their Historical context, Right. I mean, artists are not producing art in a vacuum. Even if they think they are, they're not. I mean, you know, like, so. And this is obviously the case with De La Soul, where it's just like, yeah, you listen to Three Feet High and Rising. It's an artifact from the end, in some ways, depending upon who you ask, right? I mean, which historian you ask is you're sort of listening to an artifact from either the. From the Reagan era or from the end of the Reagan era. Right. I mean, like, you know, it's like it depends upon what kind of argument you want to make, you know. So, yeah, like, I hope that it sort of sparks an interest in learning about rap music generally. You know, sort of thinking about black history generally. But then also, I hope it inspires people, especially those who have only listened to a few De La Soul songs, to go listen to all their albums. I mean, like, you know, so, like, that's why I include the listening guide in the back, you know, in. The listening guide is sort of also designed to sort of spark more curiosity about, you know, other artists as well. Right. I mean, because, you know, if artists are not. They're not producing art in a historical vacuum, nor are they producing it in an artistic vacuum. Like, they're sort of constantly pulling inspiration from artists who came from. Came before them or their contemporaries. Right? I mean, so, you know, I think that piece is important as well. So, yeah, like, you buy this book, go get all their CDs or vinyl or tape tapes and listen to the full albums, which is something I tell my students. Right. There was a. There was a conversation that we had in class, and we were talking about Outcasts of Kwameni. And towards the end of the conversation, I asked them, like, so how many of you had listened to a full Outcast album before today? And, like, one student raised their hand, and I was like, what? Like. And I was just like, okay, this weekend, what you need to do is you need to go listen to their albums. And. And, you know, and. And I told them, you will not be disappointed. Right? I mean, because, you know, they have one of the best discographies in rap. And it's just like, yeah, when artists are like, we are living sort of in a playlist, you know, sort of era, but not all artists are producing songs just. Just so then they could be on a playlist. There are artists, especially in rap, who see songs as part of a larger piece of work. And. And then in that piece, that larger piece of work is the album where they're trying to tell a story. And this obviously isn't, you know, limited to rap. This is, you know, a lot of artists who put out albums. And I mean, like, they're trying to tell you a story about either something that's going on in their life, their times, you know, something else, or they're trying to take you to another world. It's fantasy, right? I mean, like, they're trying to tell you a story. And I believe that when you listen to music, especially in the album format, that's one of the more enriching aspects of listening, right? I mean, so of course you get this sort of the sonic pleasure, but you're also getting to know the artist in some way, and you're. And you're getting to sort of learn about a story or. Or you're listening to a new story more than likely, right? And whether it's Three Feet High and Rising or Biggie's Ready to Die, right? I mean, like, he's telling a story on that album, right? I mean, like, about. About himself. What it meant to sort of grow up in Brooklyn, to grow up around, you know, around a lot of violence, to sort of struggle with mental health, to struggle with other sorts of issues that are take taking place in his family life. The album is a story, right? I feel like if for the folks who do not listen to albums as much, they're just missing out on so much because you just never know what you can learn. So, yeah, you buy the book, you know, and you read the book, or you get the book from the library, or you borrow the book from someone, or you listen to the book, please go listen to De La Soul's music afterwards, right? Go listen. And not just the popular songs, go listen to the full albums because you will not regret it.
- [66:31]
A
And then where should people go when they finish your book and they want to learn more about you and your work?
- [66:37]
B
So I have, you know, like, I'm on social media, so you can go. You can, you know, probably look me up on Blue sky on Instagram. I'm probably more active there. I'm still active on Facebook, not as active on X for a lot of reasons. You know, it's just like, well, I'm just not there anymore. You know, I also have a website. I believe It's Austin C. McCoy. So, like, yeah, you can find me in, you know, website. You can find me on most social media platforms. And then of course, if you need to, you can just Google me and you'll. You'll find me too.
- [67:09]
A
And I can attest to your listeners that he's a fantastic social media follow. So definitely consider giving a, giving him a follow. And before I let you go, I, I know I've, I've held you captive. I've asked you so many questions because the, the book was so fantastic. But is there anything we haven't covered yet that you want future readers to know?
- [67:29]
B
I mean, I feel like we cover, I feel like we covered a lot. Um, and no, I, I, I think that, well, one thing I would say, and this is sort of an open invitation because I've gotten some cool responses to the book. I'm always just curious about what sort of grabbed others when reading this book. Right. I mean, so, like, what struck you? And you know, because, yeah, like, again, sort of, this is, my interpretation is just one and it's one of many. And I was just fortunate enough to be able to write about it. But no, there should be others who come after me and write about it as well. So I'm always, I'm curious about what you thought, but also will be curious about, you know, what other readers think.
- [68:14]
A
Well, for me, it was my adolescence all over again, so.
- [68:19]
B
Definitely, definitely.
- [68:20]
A
Yeah. So to the listeners out there, pick up your copy of Living in a Daisy Age. It is a rich, thoughtful analysis of not only De La Soul, but of hip hop and of the evolution of the genre throughout the 80s, the 90s and the 2000s. You'll be transported to another era and you will not want to put it down. Thank you again, Dr. McCoy.
- [68:43]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [68:46]
A
My thanks again to Dr. McCoy for spending his time with me. If you want to be transported to another era and learn about the early days of hip hop and the origins of one of the most influential groups of their generation, then I recommend grabbing yourself a copy of Living in a Daisy Age. You can find it wherever fine books are sold or through my affiliate link on bookshop.org. thanks, peeps. I'll see you next time. Thanks for sitting down with me as I explore this chapter of American history. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. I look forward to our next cup of coffee together.