A (3:20)

And you know, you. This book is, is really the first comprehensive biography of Congressman Diggs, as you mentioned. And you start, you know, in his early years growing up. So how did Diggs father influence his early understanding of politics and how to best effectuate change?

B (3:39)

Yes. Well, Diggs father and his mother, his father was Charles Sr. And his mother was Mamie Diggs. They were part of the huge exodus of black Americans from the Deep South. And the father was from Mississippi and his mother was from Tennessee. And they moved from the south to Detroit right before the First World War. So Diggs is a product of what we now call the Great Migration. And so his parents would. Would move to Detroit. They had one child, Charles Diggs Jr. And the parents would form, Alicia, what became a very prosperous funeral home, mortuary business. And in fact, the mortuary business in Detroit was, was called House of Digs. And that's why I have the title of the book there. So the House of Diggs Funeral Home dominated black Detroit's funeral market for about 30 or 40 years. If you were a black American and you died in Detroit, you were likely to be buried by the House of Dix. So it became a very prosperous business. And the father, Charles Diggs senior, will parlay the success of the funeral home into electoral politics and would run for public office. He ran in 1936 for the Michigan State Senate. And Diggs senior became the first black Democrat ever elected to the state legislature there in Michigan. And so Diggs father will set an example of public service for his only child, his son, Charles Diggs Jr. He was very, very much influenced by his father, who was. The father was a very, very important civic leader who really was involved in almost everything dealing with black Americans in Detroit from like the 1930s until the 1960s until his death. And he would have a big impact on his son, Charles Diggs Jr. Definitely.

A (6:07)

Big Shadow, it seemed like throughout the book.

B (6:09)

Yeah. In fact, in fact, Alicia, I should say Charles Diggs Jr. Will eventually win his father's old state Senate seat, which became his first. Charles Dick Jr's first elected position was in the Michigan State Senate, the same seat that his father held for a number of years.

A (6:34)

Yeah. And you describe Diggs Jr. S political approach as one of strategic moderation. So can you expand on what this is and how it impacted his effectiveness while in Congress?

B (6:48)

Well, part of that has to do with Diggs Jr. S upbringing in Detroit and in Michigan and watching his father, Diggs Sr. You know, build broad based coalitions with labor leaders, with liberal whites in Detroit and throughout Michigan. So Diggs as a boy, as a young man, watch blacks and whites mobilize, gain and share power together. So young Diggs had a real good sense of the values of coalition building. As a young man, watching his father build these very, very important coalitions in Detroit and in fact, throughout the state of Michigan. So when Diggs Jr. Congress in 1955, he gets elected, Charles Diggs Jr. Would leave the state Senate and will run after three years in the state senate, become a member of Congress in 1955. And so when he arrives there, his approach to politics, his approach as a legislator was one similar to what his father advanced as a leader in Detroit, that is building broad based coalitions. Diggs Jr. Understood that because black Americans were a racial minority and a numerical minority, if we were, that is, if black folk were going to advance civil rights, it had to have a broad coalition of supporters because the numbers weren't there alone to make it happen. And so when Diggs goes into Congress, he practiced what I call a politics of strategic moderation. And what I mean by that, I'm not talking about the moderates. The way we describe them today. Today, we, today politicians call themselves moderates to distinguish themselves from the extreme wings of their parties. They don't want to be seen as too far to the left or too far to the right. And so they say they are moderates. That's not what I'm talking about in the case of Congressman Diggs. Diggs was really coming into office in the 50s and moving along in the 60s and 70s. And what he believed was that you really had to have this broad spectrum of support. And so when I say he practiced strategic moderation, he's trying to build broad based coalitions. He's able in Congress to work with conservatives, he's able to work with moderates, he's able to work with radicals when necessary to build the coalitions he needed to build. So that's what I mean by, by practicing this politics of strategic moderation. Let me just add very quickly. In the 50s, 60s, indeed in the 70s, black Americans were really were sort of figuring out where we were going in politics. And there were many of us black Americans were still linked to the Republican party in the 1950s. Indeed, in the early 1960s, still a sizable number of blacks who, who cling to the party of Lincoln because Lincoln freed the slaves. And so blacks had a long attachment to the Republican parties. So in the 50s and 60s, there were some blacks who were saying, you know, we shouldn't put our eggs in one basket. The Democratic Party basket. But we should be in both the Republican and the Democratic Party at the same time. There were some black radicals who are arguing that black Americans should form their own party, a third party, a black political party. Diggs had a different view. Diggs view was that blacks had to be a part at this time of the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party controlled the Congress. And if you were going to advance civil rights in the 50s, in the 60s, in the 70s, and get it through Congress, you had to do it through the Democratic Party. So he was a strong, that is, Diggs Jr. Was a strong supporter of the Democratic Party and he used the Democratic Party as a vehicle to get things done.

A (11:34)

And as you discussed in a previous answer, prior to Diggs Jr. Getting to federal office, he was a member of the Michigan State legislature. And so how did this experience prepare him for that larger role and larger stage once he was in D.C. yes.

B (11:53)

The research in political science is quite clear on this, Alicia. Those Congress members who had previous experience as state legislators or perhaps city council members typically are much more effective in Congress than those members who have not had any experience in, let's say, a state legislature. So the three and a half years that young Charles Diggs Jr. Spent in the Michigan legislature really taught him a lot. And one of the things that taught him in particular was the role of the legislature as an overseer or overseeing the executive branch. So Diggs believed firmly in the oversight authority of Congress. So he would come to Congress understanding that part of his authority as a member of Congress was to oversee what's happening in the executive branch. And so that oversight authority he would use from the beginning and throughout his career. And he picked that up and he learned about the legislature's oversight authority, having spent a few years in the state senate. So yes, his time in the state senate really taught him how to be a member of Congress, if you will.

A (13:31)

Yeah, yeah. And pretty early on in his tenure there was the murder of Emmett Till. And can you talk a bit about the Congressman's decision to attend the murder trial of Emmett Till and, and how his presence influenced events?

B (13:49)

Yes, well, yes, it's a very.

A (13:54)

Very.

B (13:54)

Event in the life of Charles Diggs Jr. Congressman Diggs was sworn into office in January of 1955. He had just got elected in 1954. And a few months after being sworn in, in the summer of 1955, a 14 year old boy from Chicago, Illinois went to visit his relatives in Mississippi in the Delta section of Mississippi. And Emmett Till, the 14 year old black boy would go down to Mississippi to visit his relatives. And he was murdered. He was lynched. His body was found in the Tallahatchie river down the Mississippi. And two white men were arrested and charged for the murder of young Emmett Till. And so they had a trial for the two white men who were arrested in the summer of 1955. And you're right, Alicia, young Charlie Diggs, who was just 32 years old, if I have my math right, went down to Mississippi as a new member of Congress to observe the trial. He went down there because he had a sense that it would not be a fair trial. And he was right. The two white men were acquitted by the all white jury. Anyway, Diggs goes down there and he had a big impact in Mississippi. And I'll tell your listeners real quickly how that played out. First of all, Hicks had a big impact on the black witnesses who ultimately came forward to testify at the trial. Wesha, you and your listeners may not know this, but in 1955, it was a dangerous thing for black people to accuse a white man murdering a black person. So the witnesses who came forward, ultimately came forward, were very much frightened, but they came forward. And we know from their own account that Diggs had a big impact on them. They told reporters and friends after the trial that Diggs, seeing Congressman Diggs, seeing the powerful, in their view, powerful black congressmen in the courtroom, gave them the courage to testify at the trial, that they were afraid and frightened, but seeing him out in the courtroom gave them the courage to carry out and testify. The second thing that Diggs did here is that his presence elevated the media attention to the trial. The fact that he was a newly elected black congressman attracted media coverage. They were curious about this black, this black member of Congress because, you know, he's only. He's only. If I did not say this already, there are only two other blacks in the Congress. So you're talking three black members of Congress. So the media was very, very interested in this, in this new black Congress member. And so they followed the trial closely. But Diggs presence also elevated the whole question of civil rights and voting rights for blacks in Mississippi and throughout the South. And the third thing that I would say about the Emmett Till trial is that Diggs, by going down there to Mississippi in the summer of 1955, Diggs was sending a signal to America about what kind of congressmember he was going to be. He was newly elected. And people wondered, well, what kind of congressman will this guy be? Well, he was sending a signal that as a member of Congress Although he was elected from Detroit or from Michigan, that he planned to be a congressman for all of black America. So his presence there sent a strong signal what kind of congressmember he planned to be. And if you look at his career, you can see just that, that he was not only a Congress member from Detroit, but he did a lot of things for Americans around the country. In fact, for black Africans in Africa as well.

A (19:03)

Yeah.

B (19:04)

And he, you can see this early on after going to the Emmett Till murderers trial, he next, the following year, goes down to Montgomery, Alabama, to support Dr. King and Rosa Parks and the black folk down there doing the Montgomery bus boycott. And that in 1956, he did that. And that became the beginning of relationship between Congressman Diggs and Dr. King. I lay out in the book, Alicia, that Dr. King, Martin Luther King, Jr. And Charles Diggs Jr. Were very, very close friends. And that relationship started when Diggs went down to Alabama in 1956 and gave Dr. King that he raised in Detroit to support the Montgomery bus boycott. I should say the House of Diggs Funeral Home had a very popular rad that came on each Sunday. Congressman Diggs was the host of that program for many decades, and he would use the radio program to talk about issues. And on this particular program day, he raised $10,000, and he took it down to Dr. King, and that became the beginning of their relationship.

A (20:34)

Yeah, well, and let's talk a little bit more about this relationship because, you know, you really dive into this relationship, and you. You call them a quote, potent team at a time of great change. And so I want to give you an opportunity to kind of expand on that. What was it about their relationship and the approaches to the cause of civil rights that made them so formidable?

B (20:58)

Well, first of all, Diggs was strategically positioned as a member of Congress, and so that relationship between the two would play off one another. For Dr. King, having a relationship with a member of Congress who could raise issues on the floor of the House about civil rights was a very valuable thing for Congressman Diggs, who was very, very devoted to trying to change civil rights laws. Having a friend and colleague like Dr. King, who had connections throughout the south, gave Diggs avenues in the south that he would not have had had he not had those kind of relationships. So, for example, when Diggs would go down to speak in Georgia or Louisiana, other parts of the south, he would always reach out to Dr. King, and Dr. King would tell him, here are the black Southern leaders. If you go to Georgia or you go to Florida here, who you need to talk to. So it was a formidable relationship. And these two men, who I call brothers in the struggle, because they really worked hard together around civil rights. So, for example, when Dr. King went to Selma, Alabama, to mobilize around voting rights, Dr. King wanted to elevate this issue. Dr. King got arrested in Selma, intentionally got arrested, refused to pay the bail, because he wanted to stay and elevate this issue. And while in jail, he reached out to Charles Diggs Jr. The Congress member, and he asked Diggs could he organize a delegation of members of Congress to come to Selma to elevate this voting rights campaign. And sure enough, Diggs organized a bipartisan delegation of House members who in February of 1965, came down to Selma and held meetings with Dr. King and local leaders. And they came and would come back to Washington, D.C. and push President Johnson to pass this 1965 Voting Rights Act. So they were a formidable partnership and friendship that would last until Dr. King was assassinated in April of 1968.

A (23:39)

Well, and you talked about with Congressman Diggs decision to attend the Emmett Till trial, that he was kind of signaling that he was going to be the congressman for black Americans throughout the country. And specifically, he kind of acted as a sort of conduit for black servicemen looking for fair treatment. Can you talk about how he used his position in Congress to seek relief for men serving in the armed forces?

B (24:05)

Yes. Diggs was a veteran of World War II, so he served in. In the Second World War. He was stationed down in Alabama for the most part. That experience in Alabama really shaped young Diggs. Remind you, he grew up in Detroit. So going down to Alabama and experiencing Jim Crow firsthand was something that would really impact Diggs. And once he got into Congress, he had a good sense of what black military men were facing as members of the military. In 1948, President Truman desegregated the U.S. military. When Diggs arrived in Congress in 1955, he began to receive hundreds and hundreds of letters from black servicemen about discrimination throughout the military in terms of living conditions, in terms of promotions and assignments. And this would take this on. And he would eventually push the Department of Defense and ultimately President Kennedy to establish a presidential commission to examine the state of racial equality in the US Military. And the commission, which was called the Gazelle Commission, named after its chairman, would eventually release a report that adopted many of the ideas that Diggs had been advocating for so many years. As a member of Congress, for example, Diggs was very much concerned with not only discrimination on the base and with assignments. Diggs was especially concerned with what. What's called off base discrimination, the fact that. That black service members could not, you know, go to the bowling alley or theaters that were in proximity to the military installations. And Diggs argued for years that he thought this really hurt the morale of black soldiers. You know, for example, the black and white soldiers will be working together on a military installation, and let's say they want to go out to have a beer or go play bowling. They couldn't do it because the local establishments wouldn't allow it. So to make a long story short, the commission that President Kennedy established, that Diggs pushed to establish, would ultimately put in place regulations that prohibited. That prohibited private businesses and indeed rental units from discriminating against US Military personnel. What I'm saying is that the US Military service said to the bowling alley owners, the restaurant owners near, around the military installations that unless you open up your restaurant to all the military men, we are not going to let any of those military men come to your establishment. And that happened before the 1964 Civil Rights act and before the 1968 Fair Housing Act.

A (27:48)

And you talked briefly earlier about, you know, there was conversations about maybe creating the black political party, and, you know, that didn't necessarily come to fruition. But Congressman Diggs did have kind of a pivotal role in the development of the Congressional Black Caucus, which had its own areas of influence. So can you share his role and how that developed?

B (28:12)

Yes. The Congressional Black Caucus was founded in 1971, and it's still around today. Today there's some 62 black members of Congress who comprise the Congressional Black Caucus. Diggs was the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus. By 1969, the number of blacks in Congress had expanded from the three that Diggs sort of encountered when he arrived to now 13 members, black members. And Diggs early on thought it was necessary for the black members to coalesce together, to talk to one another, to form a group. And so in 1969, Diggs had the idea of bringing the black members together. And he did. He brought them together under a group called the Democratic Select Committee. And the Democratic Select Committee would meet largely informally. They would meet in Diggs office. They would meet with the speaker of the House and, and other major Democratic leaders to push for causes in their particular districts. And you see, their districts were similar in terms of the kinds of challenges and needs. And so Diggs pushed, brought them together to form the Democratic Select Committee. That was in 1969. And in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee became the Congressional Black Caucus. And one of the first things that the congressional Black Caucus did was to boycott. Boycott President Nixon's State of the Union address in 1971. Nixon refused Charles Diggs request to meet with this newly formed group, the Congressional Black Caucus. And for about a year, there was a standoff between Diggs, the Congressional Black Caucus, and the Nixon White House about this meeting. They will ultimately have a meeting in March of 72, I believe it is, and they will lay out, that is Congressional Black Caucus, their concerns and specific recommendations for the Nixon administration to address around public policy issues. The meeting with Nixon and the boycott would elevate the Congressional Black Caucus to perhaps the highest, most important black organization in the country at the time.

A (31:00)

Yeah, well, and then just the following year, there was a black national convention in 1972. And so can you tell us about the growing political influence of black Americans of that time and how that's kind of demonstrated through national convention?

B (31:17)

Yes. In 1972, there was a presidential election, and this would be really the first election where you could really demonstrate the full impact of the black vote. The 1965 Voting Rights act was now perhaps having its full impact by the early 70s. And so black leaders were trying to strategize in the early 70s about how best to utilize this new political force called the black vote. And as I said earlier, there were some black radicals, some black militants who believed that the black vote should be organized around supporting an independent black political party. There were people like Amira Baraka, who at the time, in the early 70s, was a leading black nationalist. And Baraka and others were pushing for a independent black political party. Well, they weren't able to do that, but they were continuing pushing about, can there be a strategy for black America moving forward, Giving now the results of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. And so in 1972, black leadership would come together in Gary, Indiana, and have a meeting which became known as the national black political convention. And Diggs was one of three of the co chairs of the convention. In fact, he worked closely with Amira Baraka, who was one of the other co chairs of black militant, and Richard Haster, who was the mayor of Gary, Indiana. And so for two days in. In 1972, the spring of 1972, some 8,000 black Americans, black leaders, local, state officials came together to try to develop a black agenda for the 1970s and moving and moving forward. And Diggs played a very, very important role at the convention as one of the co chairs. Now, Diggs was very strategic in this regard. Diggs, again, firmly believe that the best Route for black Americans to achieve their goals politically would be through the Democratic Party. And so what happened is coming out of that Gary convention, many of the black militants of the time, which included Jesse Jackson, for example, many of those folk who attended the Gary convention came out of the convention motivated to run for public office and to support the Democratic Party. So the outcome of the Gary convention was in line with Biggs view that the best place for black Americans at the time were to be a part of the Democratic Party. The Democratic party by the 1970s had distinguished itself from the Republican Party as relates to civil rights. And so Diggs felt very good about the outcome of the Gary convention because it led people like Jesse Jackson. Bobby Seals, who was the leader of the Black Panthers, came to the convention and he left the convention and ran for mayor of Oakland as a Democrat. So the. So the convention was a very, very important event for black American politics. And Diggs was a central key player at the convention. I'm just add real quickly, the convention may not have happened had it not been for Diggs. Yeah, because the Congressional Black Caucus members were divided about the convention. They were divided about working with black radicals like Amira Baraka. But Diggs brought them along. He really believed that the CBC and the black members of Congress should participate at the Gary convention. And I would surmise had Diggs not been the chair, it is possible that, that Gary convention may not have taken place. Because you really could not have a black political convention, a legitimate one without the involvement of the 13 Black members of Congress. I mean, what kind of convention could you have if you didn't have seriously, you know, because they had just gotten attention from being the boycott of the, of the Nixon State of the Union and having this White House meeting with Nixon. So the Congressional Black Caucus, by the time of the convention, the Gary convention really represented black politics. And so Diggs understood that the black radicals could not go forward without the support of the Congressional Black Caucus and.

A (37:06)

Expanding our scope a little bit. You had mentioned this in a, in a previous answer as well, but there was it during Congressman Diggs's tenure a. A deeper relationship between the United States and Africa. And so how was US Relations with Africa both the greatest accomplishment and greatest challenge of Congressman Diggs career?

B (37:30)

Yeah, well, Diggs in 1959 became the first black American to serve on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And from his position on that committee, Diggs got very, very involved in US Africa policy. And in fact, Diggs would become known as Mr. Africa because of his interest in Africa. And Diggs was especially concerned with U.S. relationships with the country of South Africa. South Africa had put in place in 1948 a system of apartheid which gave the white minority superiority and say so over the black majority. Blacks could not hold positions of authority, they could not vote, they could not supervise whites on the job and these kind of things. So Diggs will spend a good part of his career trying to break the bond between the US Government and the South African government did not want to see our country align with this racist regime in South Africa. And I say it was his greatest challenge and his greatest accomplishment because Democrat and Republican presidents were really trying to maintain a relationship with South Africa. Because of the Cold War, South Africa government was strongly anti communist. And so the US Government felt compelled, felt that it was imperative that we align ourselves with South Africa. And so Diggs would spend, oh, a good many of his years in Congress are working to, to awaken America about apartheid. Most people think of the anti apartheid movement and they think about the 80s and 1990s. Diggs was talking about and trying to mobilize around apartheid in the late 50s and early 60s. And in 1969, he will become chair of the Subcommittee on Africa. And he would use that chairmanship of that subcommittee to really, really bring to light what was happening down in South Africa. And so it became his major challenge because he was really fighting against the grain of his party. Both Democrats and Republicans were really willing to keep the bond between our two nations. But ultimately, in the early 90s, 1990, 91 I believe it was, the apartheid regime fell. And in 1994, Nelson Mandela was elected the first black president of South Africa. And Diggs was still alive at the time. And he was very, very pleased to see that happen.

A (40:52)

Well, and so despite his many, many accomplishments, Congressman Diggs did run into some trouble in the latter part of his career. So can you share a bit about these troubles and whether you believe Diggs was treated fairly?

B (41:08)

In 1978, Diggs was convicted by a federal jury in Washington D.C. for being involved in a payroll kickback scheme. He vital he violated Congress's rules as relates to staff salaries and the like. And he would, he would ultimately be convicted for this payroll scheme. You asked me whether or not I thought he was fairly treated. Let me say this. It's very clear that Diggs violated Congress's rules in my mind. Now I'll just add a number of people on Capitol Hill at the time who had positions like Diggs, chairmans of committees and what have you were violating Congress's rules and Diggs would maintain that he was selectively prosecuted largely because he was a black man. But let me add that the. And I'm not certain that's the case or not, but let me just add that the jury that convicted Diggs was comprised of 11 black men and women and one white person who heard the evidence and convicted him of all 29 charges. Diggs is known, unfortunately, for this downfall and many people remember him today because of the downfall. But I think that's the wrong approach. Dig. Not be remembered for his. Solely for his downfall. He should remember. Be remembered for the stellar Congressmember that he was. He really worked hard during his 20, almost 25 years in Congress. And he was a true patriot and he really wanted this country to live up to its true meanings to, to. To live up to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. He was a true patriot who loved his country, but who was also imperfect, who also had some personal challenges. He gambled a lot. He could not seemingly control his spending, and hence he got himself in real trouble. He was desperate. It's not an excuse, but it's an explanation. He was desperate for money. He needed money. And he was in a position in Congress to take advantage of this. You see. But this is not what we should solely remember Charles Diggs about. As my book lay out, Alicia, this guy was really, really accomplished. He was really consequential. He changed America. He fought for freedom. Diggs fought for freedom on two continents here in North America, in the U.S. and he fought for freedom in Africa. And so my book is entitled the Rise and Fall of America. Subtitle the Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressmember. But we should not remember Diggs solely for the fall. He should also be remembered for the fact that he was a serious policy oriented Congress member who really took his job very seriously. He really did. He was well liked on Capitol Hill. I interviewed people who worked with him and everybody liked this guy. It's really amazing. Let me say this. They all were shocked when they learned about the payroll kickback scheme. They couldn't believe that Charlie Diggs would do something wrong. That's what, that's what they told me. And let me add, many people thought he was independently wealthy because of the House of Diggs, the House of Diggs Funeral Home. And he led them to believe that he was. He couldn't, you know, come to tell people, you know what? I'm not as wealthy as you as you believe. And a lot of people really thought that he was the recipient of millions of dollars because of the House of Diggs Funeral Home. And hence when the charges were announced, many people were just shocked. They really were. They couldn't believe it.

A (45:49)

Well, and thinking about our current political moment, how does learning about Congressman Diggs really kind of help us understand, contextualize better, have better insight into this current moment?

B (46:03)

Well, here's a congressmember that really took his job seriously. And so what I mean by that is he was persistent. One of the words that I think captured Diggs, Diggs quite well is persistence. I mean, he was pushing for civil rights. Again, going against the grain of many people in Congress because Congress was controlled by Southern Democrats for many of the decades that Diggs was there in the 50s and 60s. So he had to be persistent. You see that in the case of South Africa, where he's pushing against not only the folk in his party and Congress, but he's also pushing against the presidents who, who all, you know, were trying to keep the bond between, between South Africa and the US So he was a very persistent kind of leader and Congress member. He also took the oversight role of Congress very seriously. Diggs would be very, very bothered if he were to look at Congress today and he would be asking Congress, especially the Republicans who control Congress now, have you forgotten our role about oversight? So he would really be pushing for Congress to do its role to oversee what the Trump administration is doing. He would also be pushing the Congressional Black Caucus to hold hearings about what's happening around our country on cost of living and the use of the military in our cities. He would probably say There are some 62 caucus members. They should be spread out, holding hearings and elevating what's going on around the country. He took his job seriously and he would be disappointed at what Congress is doing now. The Founding Fathers, the framers of the Constitution, established Congress as an institution for compromise and bargaining. The Founding Fathers assume that there will be bargaining and compromise going on in Congress. You don't see that happening today. And Diggs would be asking, what? Where's the bargaining? Where's the compromise? Let's get to work. That's the kind of congressmember he was, and that's what I think he would be pushing. Let me very also add that Diggs also believed firmly that you had to have external pressure on the Congress. This is why he was so adamant in forming the Trans Africa group that I outlined in the book. Trans Africa became America's leading anti apartheid organization. And Trans Africa was Diggs vision and idea. Trans Africa mobilized Americans around the country to protest our relationship with South Africa. So Diggs today would be urging grassroots leaders in Detroit, in Atlanta, in Seattle, in Chicago to mobilize their constituency to push Congress to do things differently. He believed in the institutional Congress, but he also believed you had to have external pressure pushing that institution to do what's right. And he would be urging grassroots leaders today to be doing just that.

A (50:06)

Well said. And before I let you go, what do you hope readers take away from this book?

B (50:13)

I hope readers take away that courage and representation matter. Biggs was a courageous leader. He risked his life going down to Mississippi. He risked his life working closely with Dr. King. In fact, he escaped, that is a Biggs escape, being killed in Mississippi himself. So what I want people to take away is here was a courageous leader. And the other thing I would say is that representation matters. Having a voice in the Congress like Charles Diggs coming, representing a largely black district, bringing in issues that others seemingly ignored, Diggs would become like the first voice talking about South Africa and apartheid, you see. So he was courageous. And the fact that his presence in Congress really made a difference. He brought up issues that other people weren't really addressing. We didn't talk about, you know, the airport discrimination that was taking place in the airline industry in the 50s and 60s. He, you know, other Congress members seemingly didn't realize the fact that there weren't any black pilots or black or black flight attendants flying on Delta or the twa. But Diggs comes to Congress, and he realized right away that, oh, I don't see any black flight attendants. I don't see any black pilots, I don't see any black engineers. And he knew, because he was a Tuskegee airman, he knew that blacks could fly airplanes. So I say reputation matters, because here's a black man who recognizes this, you see? So I want people to take away that here was a courageous leader whose representation in Congress really matter and impact.

A (52:24)

Well, I think that's a perfect place to end the conversation. And for all the listeners out there, definitely consider adding the House of Digs to your reading list. It is a comprehensive and illuminating exploration of one of the most important political figures of the 20th century. And it's a book you will not want to put down. I blew through it in just a matter of days. It's very accessible, so definitely consider adding it. Thank you again, Dr. Orr.

B (52:52)

Oh, thank you, Alicia, for having me on. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

A (52:56)

Thank you. Thank you again to Dr. Orr, for spending your time with me and to the listeners out there, be sure to pick up a copy of House of Digs and and just a friendly reminder that if you are looking for ways to support the show and support independent bookstores, you can buy a copy of this book as well as the books of prior guests on my affiliate shop on bookshop.org I've included a link in the show notes. Thanks peeps. I'll see you next time. Thanks for sitting down with me as I explore this chapter of American history. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. I look forward to our next cup of coffee together.