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182. Exclusive: Gen. Nakasone on national security threats, life after the NSA, and a possible return to government
00:29:43
A week before the election, we sat down with Ret. General Paul Nakasone and he talked about North Korea, Russian hackers, his life after the NSA and why he hasn’t ruled out taking another government job.
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- [00:02]
Jade Abdul Malik
From prx.
- [00:08]
Dina Temple Raston
From Recorded Future News, I'm Dina Temple Reston and this is Click here. General Paul Nakasone occupied what is arguably one of the most powerful intelligence roles ever created. Director of the nsa. The National Security Agency is ground zero for one of the most formidable signals intelligence operations in the world. He's something called dual had it, which is Washington speak for he had another job. At the same time he led Cyber Command, the military cyber force. Back in 2018, when President Trump was in office for the first time, he allowed Cyber Command to take the gloves off. The Pentagon drew up new authorities that allowed cybercom to target adversaries in a way it never had before, to not just defend themselves, but to go on the offensive. And the result was operations like this.
- [01:11]
General Paul Nakasone
We have the fullest look yet available at a secret US Effort to purge the Internet of the ISIS media operation. Reports say the US Launched a cyberattack on Iran designed to cripple its computer systems.
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Dina Temple Raston
General Nakasone was in charge of all that until he retired this past February. And he sat down with us on the sidelines of a supply chain conference in Washington D.C. just a week before Americans went to the polls and voted Trump back into office. I've interviewed Nakasone about half a dozen times over the years. He was always fairly circumspect in interviews when he was at the nsa, but when we sat down earlier this month, he said nothing was off limits. I'm Dina Temple Raston and this is Click Here. A podcast about all things cyber and intelligence. We tell true stories about the people making and breaking our digital world and today, our in depth, candid and wide ranging conversation with General Nakasone. We talked about everything from exploding pagers in the Middle east to why he decided to join the board of OpenAI and everything in between. And when you see North Korean troops showing up in Ukraine, I assume you see this as a big escalation.
- [02:40]
General Paul Nakasone
So I see this as the redefinition of national security.
- [02:47]
Dina Temple Raston
Stay with us.
- [02:55]
Michael Calory
Hi everyone. It's Michael Calory, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture at Wired. Here with my colleagues, senior writer Lauren Good.
- [03:02]
Lauren Good
Hello.
- [03:03]
Michael Calory
And Wired contributor Zoe Schiffer.
- [03:05]
Dina Temple Raston
Hey, everyone.
- [03:06]
Michael Calory
We're here to tell you about our new podcast, Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.
- [03:13]
Lauren Good
Every week we get together to talk about how technology and culture from the Valley is influencing our everyday lives. We dig into questions like will we ever get our Privacy back? Is OpenAI for real? And how are Silicon Valley billionaires impacting US elections? The first Episode of Uncanny Valley comes out on October 31st. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [03:40]
Dina Temple Raston
From. Recorded future news, this is Click here. I'm Dina Temple. Rest back in September, pagers in Lebanon began beeping Just after 3:30 in the afternoon. And then something completely unexpected happened. We want to start with an attack in the Middle east unlike anything we've ever seen before. Hundreds of wireless pagers exploded at the same time tonight.
- [04:16]
General Paul Nakasone
Shockwaves and panic across Lebanon after a stunning unprecedented attack, both widespread and personal.
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Dina Temple Raston
Israel had slipped into Hezbollah's supply chain, sending the Iran backed group thousands of pagers with tiny explosives hidden inside. By day's end, a dozen people were dead and nearly 3,000 were injured. Some of the dead and wounded were members of Hezbollah, others were not, including four children who were killed. And I began with the pager attack. When I sat down with General Paul Nakasone, I asked him whether this was a harbinger of things to come.
- [04:57]
General Paul Nakasone
I think that as we have seen the pagers and the walkie talkie attacks over the past four to six weeks, it reminds us that, you know, the supply chain means everything. And we saw this during COVID 19. We understood that perhaps not everything that we thought was going to be part of, you know, our national inventory was produced here. We have to be able to understand that.
- [05:17]
Dina Temple Raston
Is the exploding pagers, is that going to be the next wave of non traditional warfare or do you think this was more of a singular thing?
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General Paul Nakasone
So I think that there will be a number of different adversaries that take a look at this and say, how do we utilize this for the future? I think it's a piece that gives us pause and says, okay, how do we make sure that this does not happen to us?
- [05:36]
Dina Temple Raston
Nakasone says this is one of the many shifts he's seen since he was commissioned in 1986.
- [05:43]
General Paul Nakasone
When I came into the army, there were two pacts, right? It was the Warsaw Pact and of course there was NATO. And we thought about the world and really kind of, you know, this is what the free world was doing. This is what the Soviet bloc was doing. Now we have an axis of authoritarianism that has a number of different members. China, Russia, North Korea, Iran. Impede the United States from being able to execute its responsibilities in this global world order. This is focused on the United States so being able to cause us harm, being able to distract our attention. This is what the axis is looking to do.
- [06:16]
Dina Temple Raston
And when you see North Korean troops showing up in Ukraine, I assume you see this as a big escalation.
- [06:23]
General Paul Nakasone
So I see this as the redefinition of national security. And I would say that this is totally different than what we thought about, you know, 10 years ago or even 10 months ago. And so, yes, we've got to think about what's our national security strategy going to be to that, how are we going to deal with that? How are we going to look at Iran providing drones to Russians to be able to fly into Ukraine? How are we going to look at the provision of capabilities to Iran, to the Houthis and Hamas and Hezbollah, in a manner that strikes at our interests in the Middle East? These are new national security challenges that require new thinking.
- [06:55]
Dina Temple Raston
So just to push you a little bit on that, so what's the reasonable response to North Korean soldiers suddenly being on the border with Ukraine to fight?
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General Paul Nakasone
Well, I think the question becomes is what's the provision that we're going to provide to the Ukrainians that will be demonstrably impactful for them? It could very well be intelligence. I mean, this is the competitive advantages of what we do. Being able to spot where troops are going to be being able to provide the intelligence upon where they're moving to, being able to provide the weaponry upon which Ukraine is going to be able to defend themselves. These are competitive advantages to the United.
- [07:28]
Dina Temple Raston
States or how you can use particular weapons, for example.
- [07:32]
General Paul Nakasone
Right. Those are all policy decisions that could be one of many different solutions.
- [07:36]
Dina Temple Raston
Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelensky wants to use the long range weapons the west has provided on targets deep inside Russia. And so far, Ukraine has not been allowed to do that. There's no telling what a new Trump administration might do when it comes to Ukraine. The President elect has said that he would end the war in 24 hours, but hasn't said how. What is clear is that the presence of North Korean soldiers in the fight changes the calculus.
- [08:03]
General Paul Nakasone
North Korea never really surprises me. They're always surprising. Right? I mean, it's, they're doing a number of different things that are always within their self interest that provide a manner of, you know, challenge to us, whether or not it's on the demilitari militarized zone, whether or not it's providing support to a number of different adversaries.
- [08:19]
Dina Temple Raston
One of the things that we heard from the Ukrainians and from people outside of Ukraine is that when the North Korean missiles came in, when they started providing drones and other things for them, that it gave the North Koreans a great opportunity to test their weapons against what are essentially ours and tweak them. Are you concerned that by sending troops that they're taking people who basically haven't been on the battlefield for two generations and helping them get better.
- [08:49]
General Paul Nakasone
It's a fact when your armed forces operate in combat, you get better, you understand the problems that come, you're able to develop solutions that get after these problems. There's no doubt about it. Just like your weapons, being able to utilize them and in conflict, conflict engagements provides them a degree of data and a degree of test worthiness that you can't necessarily gather any other place.
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Dina Temple Raston
In the early days of the war in Ukraine, there was this assumption that the world would see firsthand the first real hybrid war with cyber attacks working hand in glove with traditional kinetic attacks. But it didn't really work out that way. I asked General Nakasone if there were any lessons that we might take from the war so far.
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General Paul Nakasone
I think at the beginning we learned this lesson about the power of intelligence and being able to share intelligence publicly and the transparency that provided challenges to to President Putin and the Russian Federation. Then we learned all about the fact that being able to conduct combined arms operations isn't necessarily one of the strengths of the Russian army.
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Dina Temple Raston
Sorry, by that you mean bringing cyber together with.
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General Paul Nakasone
Not only that, but I would say just combined arms. Being able to shoot, move and communicate. The fact that they had trouble driving a convoy from Russia into Ukraine, it stalled for 40 miles yesterday, showed a.
- [10:07]
Dina Temple Raston
40 mile long convoy of hundreds.
- [10:10]
General Paul Nakasone
I mean these are simple things that the United States army does every single day. The next thing I think we learned is the fact that being able to pair developers and operators is tremendously powerful. There are zero ships in the Ukrainian navy, but yet over this time frame they have sunk well over 20 Russian vessels of the Black Sea fleet with a laptop, a Starlink connection and a semi submersible platform.
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Dina Temple Raston
Are you surprised by how quickly they've innovated?
- [10:37]
General Paul Nakasone
I admire the way that they've innovated. Surprised to a degree. But I would say that necessity is a mother invention here and they really have gotten out after this.
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Dina Temple Raston
And does it say something about bureaucracy too? The fact that they've just sort of get it done as opposed to make it wind through something?
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General Paul Nakasone
Well, I think agility is the piece that we all want running very large organizations. How do you become more agile? You have better partners, you have better leaders, you have better intelligence or information. Those are three things that I think that Ukraine has been able to capitalize on and we have two at different points.
- [11:09]
Dina Temple Raston
What would be an example of the way we've been able to do so.
- [11:11]
General Paul Nakasone
Well, I would say that, you know, just being able to look at the situation early on in the war and saying, hey, if we can protect our sources and methods, why don't we go ahead and release this information to take the wind out of the sails of some type of influence operation that we know the Russians are going to conduct. That's a really good way, and I think it's a fantastic way of looking at the future.
- [11:29]
Dina Temple Raston
In the past, quickly declassifying intelligence and sharing it publicly in real time happened only very rarely, but just before and during the war in Ukraine, the US has been able to disclose bits and pieces of intelligence to undercut Russia and the countries helping them in the fight. The Russian government, we think, is planning to stage a fake attack by Ukrainian military or intelligence forces against Russian sovereign territory. It isn't just naming and shaming Russia. It's actually exposing Russia's military plans in advance in order to roil them. And Nakasone said this has helped Ukraine to prepare and respond effectively. And he says the response has also been helped by the unique partnership approach they've taken.
- [12:15]
General Paul Nakasone
There was a really good match between the private sector and the public sector. A number of different private sector companies working through the United States government with the government of Ukraine to bring capabilities to be able to not only spot, but provide defensive operations. And the last piece is, let's give great credit to the Ukrainians. They moved their data out of their country. They had a number of different elements upon which they set up to be able to defend their networks much more, much more robustly. And that credit goes to them.
- [12:44]
Dina Temple Raston
There was this other thing that made the cyber fight in Ukraine different. U.S. cyber Command sent operators there in the months before the invasion to help Ukraine defend its networks against Russian cyberattacks. And the teams found over 90 pieces of malicious code that they quietly removed in the days just before Russian tanks rumbled across the border. Nakasone says that wasn't the only reason the cyber part of the war was muted, but it was part of it.
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General Paul Nakasone
I think that has a cumulative impact. I think that any time you operate with really good forces, you become better, and you also gain a degree of confidence that I think is really important as you're facing a very sophisticated adversary in the Russians.
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Dina Temple Raston
So we've always thought of the Russians as being not just sophisticated, but kind of 10ft tall when it comes to cyber. Did we find out they're closer to 6, 2?
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General Paul Nakasone
They're not 10ft tall? Are they the most effective influence operators in the world? Right now, yes. And they've done this for many, many years. Do they have very, very good cyber operators? Yes, they have very good cyber operators. But we find them just in the same way that we found SolarWinds in the close of 2020. You know, the worst thing to happen if you're the director of an intelligence organization is to be found. They were found. And as soon as you're found, then you can take actions against those folks that are in your networks. So they're good, they're not great, they're not as good as us, but they are obviously an adversary. We have to continue to watch all the time.
- [14:10]
Dina Temple Raston
We went to Ukraine this time last year for a couple weeks and one of the things we heard from them is that they felt that the Russians are really good at making very long term plans and deciding. It's very sophisticated. But if something happens that they weren't expecting, it's hard for them to pivot. Have you seen that?
- [14:27]
General Paul Nakasone
I think so. I mean, again, I come back to the start of the war with the convoy that, you know, just seemingly was not able to go anywhere. It was stopped some somehow something had happened in terms of what was going on that prevented them from moving forward. And so there were no junior leaders that were saying, hey, let's go left, let's go right. This is the strength of the US military, of our joint force. It's the young, well trained, well led and really well motivated NCOs that make our forces go.
- [14:59]
Dina Temple Raston
When we come back, I asked General Nakasone about the China threat, his projects at Vanderbilt University and OpenAI, and how government service may not be out of his system just yet. Would you consider a job as the dni? Stay with us.
- [15:28]
Joseph Cox
Hey, I'm Joseph Cox, the host of another podcast I think you'll like. The 404 Media Podcast. We're an independent news outlet covering the bleeding edge of technology. And every week we discuss our latest stories. Whether that's how AI images are taking over Facebook and fooling people, how drugs are being sold on Instagram, or the spread of AI enabled surveillance cameras. We hold tech to account. Catch me and the rest of the 404 Media gang, wherever you listen, just search for the 404 Media podcast. Chat to you soon.
- [16:01]
Michael Calory
ChatGPT AI machines.
- [16:03]
Dina Temple Raston
Satellite engine ignition. Click here and lift up. China seems to be stepping up super aggressively in the cyber realm. Did we underestimate them?
- [16:15]
General Paul Nakasone
I think we always knew that China had the one capability that provides them a unique spot in the world, which is scale. And we're seeing that scale. And so we've got to think about how we're going to defend against that scale. Whether or not it's Volt Typhoon, whether or not Salt Typhoon, whether or not it's operations as they attempt to steal our intellectual property. What is it that we're able to do to be able to get after that scale? And so we're going to have to be able to work this really strategy forward in terms of thinking about an adversary that is many times our size in quantity, but not necessarily in quality.
- [16:49]
Dina Temple Raston
So we always talk about tactics and techniques when we talk about cyber. Are China's cyber operations different from Russia's in terms of tactics and techniques? Or is there sort of a basket that everybody pulls from, given the fact.
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General Paul Nakasone
That we're in the midst of the final days of an electoral campaign here, and you see a very, very definite pattern in terms of what Russia does, being able to go after a series of messages, develop those messages, broadcast those messages widely, have a number of different spokespeople that do this. China is much more focused on a very, very small point in terms of what they want to go after, not necessarily the broad spectrum of things. And when they do go after that, they bring a sufficient quality and quantity of what they need to do. The challenge, however, is, I would say right now is the Chinese actors really don't necessarily have the background in terms of the way that we operate or the way necessarily that we communicate. And it makes them stick out relatively.
- [17:44]
Dina Temple Raston
Relatively easy because they're clumsy, because they.
- [17:47]
General Paul Nakasone
Just don't understand the, I think the way that we have our thought patterns, our development of our conversations and it looks, looks contrived.
- [17:58]
Dina Temple Raston
I see. You mean their influence operations. I then shifted gears from adversaries to innovation and specifically how he thinks AI will be used to help with cyber defense.
- [18:10]
General Paul Nakasone
I think it really begins, as I was saying, on the defensive side. Think about all the different areas you've got to be able to monitor. With AI, it becomes much more possible to rapidly identify anything that's different in the environment. I think we move from that then onto this idea of how rapidly can we allow machines necessarily to improve, prove themselves? Self healing networks is one of the things we always talked about at US Cyber Command. This may become possible with AI. What's the level of comfort that we have with being able to make these changes or machines making these changes that will allow us to be able to rapidly, rapidly react to something that might be an intrusion early on.
- [18:46]
Dina Temple Raston
So almost like a wound that heals itself if there's a vulnerability in a.
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General Paul Nakasone
Degree of time that's so important. Right. The piece of gathering information on an intrusion is it takes time. And during that time frame, they've established a beachhead. They've been able to move laterally, they understand what's in your network, and they start to move things out of it. Being able to immediately identify there's a problem gives you an advantage.
- [19:08]
Dina Temple Raston
So it's instant patching, instant patching. Back in June, OpenAI appointed General Nakasone to its board of directors, saying he will help protect the CHAT GPT maker from, and this is their language, increasingly sophisticated bad actors. This appointment came shortly after a moment of public turmoil for the company. The board abruptly fired the CEO, Sam Altman, and part of the board was let go. Altman was reinstated days later, and then other board members departed. Nakasone was among the new appointees filling out that group. Nakasone is also joining OpenAI's new safety and Security Committee, which is supposed to advise the full board on critical safety and security decisions for its projects and operations. The Safety group replaced an earlier safety team that had been disbanded after several of its leaders quit. Given all that, I asked Nakasone why he chose to advise OpenAI and not some other AI company.
- [20:13]
General Paul Nakasone
I believe that the most disruptive technology of the near present and future is artificial intelligence. It is the most disruptive technology that we must remain the leaders in. To be able to do that, we have to be able to ensure both its security and its safety. I'm bringing the ideas of what we're able to do with the national security agency and U.S. cyber command to bear, hopefully in securing this incredibly important intellectual property.
- [20:41]
Dina Temple Raston
And you feel like OpenAI is the one that's going to strike that balance. Better to.
- [20:45]
General Paul Nakasone
Well, certainly I'm very, very committed to working with Sam Altman and the members of OpenAI to make sure that we continue to advance what was going on. November 2022, many of us saw for the first time ChatGPT, the fastest growing app on the Internet, over 300 million weekly users. Now, in November 2022, it was a very, very mediocre high school student. Today it's passing the bar, medical exams, all advanced placement tests. This is advancing very rapidly. And the idea of being able to now reason with a number of different tools in artificial intelligence, I think this portends exactly how fast we're moving and the importance of being able to protect this intellectual property.
- [21:25]
Dina Temple Raston
And had you had that in mind, that you would try and help develop this when you left the nsa or did the phone call kind of come out of nowhere?
- [21:33]
General Paul Nakasone
Well, you know, I think that I would say that I knew, leaving NSA and U.S. cyber Command, that I did want to make sure that, you know, this competitive advantage of the United States, which is our innovation, which is right now, you know, demonstrated in artificial intelligence, needed to continue. And so OpenAI just happened to be the vehicle upon which we were able to move that forward.
- [21:52]
Dina Temple Raston
If AI is going to remake a society, which I think in some ways most people think it will, will it be more beneficial or what worries you about it?
- [22:02]
General Paul Nakasone
So it will always be beneficial. As we continue to be the leaders in AI, if we become second place, then our adversaries will use this to monitor us, to develop cyber weaponry, to utilize it in a manner that will be really vastly harmful to our national security. We can figure out the areas that are challenges right now with AI, Whether or not that's job displacement, whether or not that's autonomous weaponry, all these things that are tremendously challenging as we think about this development of this capability are able to be done as long as we're the leader. And so I do believe that that will be the case.
- [22:43]
Dina Temple Raston
Talk a little bit about life after the nsa. I'm not sure you're there yet, but.
- [22:48]
General Paul Nakasone
The beginning, life after the United States army began on the 1st of April, 2024 as I retired. It has been a tremendous journey. I spent nearly six years leading United States Cyber Command, the National Security Agency. And as I concluded that portion of my life, the next phase starts. And the next phase really was this idea of first of all being able to give back. So the idea of perhaps going back to education in this sense, Vanderbilt University, opening up the Institute of National Security. It's also bringing my talents in terms of what I've been able to do over the past 10 years, which is really cyber security, bringing that to a number of different companies that I think need to have that information. And the last part is just enjoying the next part of what life is like. It doesn't begin at 4:00 in the morning anymore. There's no one that calls me at 2 o'clock in the morning anymore. It's. It's a much different way of the way I conduct myself.
- [23:41]
Dina Temple Raston
So tell me what you're going to do at Vanderbilt.
- [23:44]
General Paul Nakasone
What I had realized over my time in six years leading both the agency and the command, is that the national security environment had changed. The fact that we were no longer just focused on traditional threats, but we had a series of borderless challenges. Whether or not it was ransomware or terrorism or climate change or global pandemics. We had to think differently about what's going on. We've got to attack these problems with a series of radical partnerships. This is what I learned as I thought about Hunt Forward Operations. What made Hunt Forward Operations successful was the fact that we paired both the government and the private sector. We have to do that with problems that we're facing in the near mid and far term for our national security. Here's the other piece. At the same time we're trying to do that, we have the largest demographic change ongoing in the United States government since, really, the 1980s. We have a whole new generation of young people that we need to come be leaders in leadership for them as we move forward. And being able to do that, they have to have the knowledge, skills, and ability that are probably much different than their predecessors had. Whether or not it's artificial intelligence, whether or not it's quantum mechanics, whether or not it's just leadership in general or strategic communication, these are the things that we've got to be able to bring so hard. Problems, demographic change with new knowledge, skills, and ability. That's what we're trying to do at Vanderbilt University.
- [25:03]
Dina Temple Raston
And how do you do that?
- [25:04]
General Paul Nakasone
Well, I think first of all, you begin with excitement, then internships, then bringing a number of thought leaders to Nashville to say, hey, this is what's being done. Last week, we had general retired Frank McKenzie to come and talk to the students. He'd just written a book called the Melting Point. And I was thinking, you know, being an economics major, my undergraduate level, that'd be like having the Fed Chair come talk to my class. And that was the really neat thing, Dana, about bringing people that have done this type of work. This provides excitement, this provides ideas, this provides motivation for the future.
- [25:34]
Dina Temple Raston
So here's my lightning round for you. Would you consider a job as the dni?
- [25:39]
General Paul Nakasone
I would consider a job coming back into the government if the President had asked. And I thought it was best for my skills. Whether or not it's the Director of National Intelligence or other positions within the government, I would certainly consider it.
- [25:53]
Dina Temple Raston
Okay. Right away.
- [25:55]
General Paul Nakasone
Probably not.
- [25:56]
Dina Temple Raston
Okay, okay. What's the biggest lesson that you learned as the head of nsa?
- [26:02]
General Paul Nakasone
The trust and confidence of the American people. I realized that early on that I was the person that had to ensure the trust and confidence in our agency with the American people. And how I did that, whether or not it was through interviews or whether or not it was talking to the public or whether or not it was demonstrating what we did was really important.
- [26:19]
Dina Temple Raston
What was the thing that you wanted to do at the NSA that you couldn't do?
- [26:23]
General Paul Nakasone
I wanted to finish the leadership development that we had started. I talked about the demographic changes that are happening right now in the government workforce. The challenge of bringing a whole new generation on is you lose a whole body of leadership. I wanted to make sure that young folks have the leadership lessons that are going to make them be successful. The most important critical element within an organization, leadership.
- [26:49]
Dina Temple Raston
This is Cook here. And then if you were going to give us a big scoop, what would it be?
- [27:01]
General Paul Nakasone
Big scoop?
- [27:02]
Dina Temple Raston
Yeah.
- [27:02]
General Paul Nakasone
Wow. Big scoop is the fact that I am nearly undefeated in my fantasy football league this year. And so, and I don't brag about that much, but I would tell you that who's your quarterback? Losses? My quarterback last night was Russell Wilson.
- [27:17]
Dina Temple Raston
Here are some of the top cyber and intelligence stories of the past week, just into the newsroom. Officials have evacuated two polling locations in Fulton County, Georgia, after they received bomb threats. The threats were aimed at five locations. Election Day came and went, and the votes have been tallied without the violence that many had expected. Disinformation was on full display, though. Multiple polling locations in Georgia got bomb threats, but they turned out to have been sent from Russian email accounts. Fulton county, home to places like Atlanta and Alpharetta, said that voting on Tuesday was interrupted by some 32 separate bomb threats sent via both phone and email. And it happened in other battleground states, too. While Russian interference in American elections is nothing new, the sheer volume of the campaigns and the way US officials called them out sets the 2024 race apart from any that's come before it. The Transportation Security Administration, or tsa, proposed new rules that would require pipeline and railway operators to report cyber incidents and create cyber risk management plans. The TSA issued a roster of security directives after the Colonial Pipeline cyber attack in 2021, and under the rules they proposed last week, those directives would become permanent. Among other things, the rules would require annual cybersecurity evaluations, assessments that identify unaddressed vulnerabilities, and would require pipelines and railways to designate officials who would be responsible for cybersecurity. Organizations would be required to report cyber incidents to the Cybersecurity and Information Infrastructure Security Agency. TSA said it estimates that the proposed rule would impact about 300 surface transportation owners and operators. And finally, something's not right in the dog days of a slightly different election.
- [29:18]
General Paul Nakasone
But there are some claims of voter fraud, and this time it's in New York's all Important Honoree Dog Mayor Race.
- [29:27]
Dina Temple Raston
New York City's dog mayoral election reportedly has been hijacked by cryptocurrency fanatics who decided to back one particular pop. Allegedly, members of the crypto community promoting their new Bert Coin decided to back Bertram the Pomeranian in the race, even going so far as to offer financial incentives in exchange for votes for Bertram. The contrast got so heated that Enzo the Shih Tzu was yanked from the race when his owner, Olivia Caputo, told the New York Post that he'd been threatened. Woof.
- [30:11]
Jade Abdul Malik
Today's episode was produced by Megan Dietrich, Sean Powers, Erica Gaeda and me, Jade Abdul Malik. It was edited by Karen Duffin, Fact Checked by Darren Ancrum, and contains original music by Ben Levingston with some other music from Blue Dot sessions. Our staff writer is Lucas Riley and our illustrator is Megan Goff. Martin Peralta is our sound designer and engineer. Click Here is a production of Recorded Future News. Tune in on Friday for Mic Drop, which features our favorite interview of the week. We'll have a new episode of Click Here on Tuesday. We'll see you then.
- [31:04]
Unknown
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