Click Here Podcast — "Chasing Shadows with The Citizen Lab"

Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Guest: Ron Deibert, founder and director of The Citizen Lab
Release Date: February 20, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the story of Ron Deibert, the founder of The Citizen Lab, and his journey from humble beginnings in Vancouver to heading one of the world’s most respected internet watchdog organizations. The podcast explores the original promise of the internet versus its realities, the origins and impact of The Citizen Lab, and the lab's high-profile work exposing government and corporate abuses of technology worldwide.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Ron Deibert's Origins and Motivation

• Unlikely Beginnings

  • Raised in a tough neighborhood in Vancouver; father was a mechanic, mother a housewife.
  • “Most of the people that I hung out with... ended up either in some kind of organized crime or in jail.” – Ron Deibert (01:40)
  • Education was not prioritized; only book in the house was an unopened Bible (01:55).

• Early Influences

  • As a child, became fascinated watching the Watergate hearings on TV.
  • Profound early insight: "Systems don't always erase the truth. Sometimes they just bury it." – Dina Temple-Raston (02:44)
  • Developed an aversion to bullies and injustice, a major driver in his later work.
    • “I witnessed bullying and intimidation firsthand growing up. I don’t like bullies, especially when they get away with hurting innocent people.” – Ron Deibert (03:09)

The Birth of The Citizen Lab

• Discovery of a New Calling

  • Entered university as one of the few from his neighborhood, initially studying Soviet politics.
  • A mentor suggested he focus on the “telecommunications revolution” instead (07:35).
  • “A light bulb just went off.” – Ron Deibert (07:35)
  • Saw the early internet as a utopian vision but was skeptical about its potential misuse.

• Flipping Surveillance

  • Developed the idea: If governments use technology to watch citizens, why not watch governments using the same tech?
    • “Let’s find out what’s going on beneath the surface of the Internet that citizens need to know about.” – Ron Deibert (09:10)

• Founding the Lab

  • Secured a clandestine basement space at University of Toronto—“their little hacker hothouse” (10:01).
  • First hire: Nart Villeneuve, a self-taught hacker, crucial to early successes.
    • “He told me he couldn’t believe that someone was paying him to do what he would have gladly done for free.” – Ron Deibert (10:27)

Major Investigations & Breakthroughs

• Documenting Censorship and Surveillance

  • Nart pioneered techniques to access the internet from inside censored countries like China and map what was blocked (11:33).
  • Published reports on internet censorship in authoritarian regimes, building an international reputation.

• The “GhostNet” Discovery

  • 2008: Investigated malware attacks on Tibetan NGOs. Discovered Dalai Lama’s computers were hacked.
  • Found a spreadsheet listing 1,300 targeted computers in 103 countries, implicating the Chinese government.
    • “We were looking over the shoulders of spies who were involved in a global cyber espionage campaign.” – Ron Deibert (14:09)
    • “We just looked at each other like, what the hell? What do we do with this? This is unbelievable.” (14:37)
  • Their report made global headlines and changed the public understanding of cyber espionage.

• Making Enemies

  • Their work made them unwelcome in China, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and even made democratic governments uneasy.
    • “Surveillance isn’t just an authoritarian habit, it’s a modern one.” – Dina Temple-Raston (19:35)
    • “If we are to believe what Diebert is saying, we might be next.” – Ron Deibert (20:27)

• Innovation: Siphon Tool

  • Developed anti-censorship software (Siphon), helping users circumvent internet restrictions (20:45).

Unmasking Pegasus Spyware

• Pegasus Discovery

  • 2016: Alerted to a suspicious text sent to UAE activist Ahmed Mansoor. Analysis led to uncovering Pegasus, sold by NSO Group.
  • “Pegasus didn’t need a click. It could infect a phone without the user doing anything at all... take over the device—microphone, camera, everything.” – Dina Temple-Raston (21:55)
  • Published the “Million Dollar Dissident” report, the first public exposé on Pegasus spyware (23:11).

• Global Consequences

  • Their research led to significant action, including President Biden blacklisting NSO Group and curbing spyware use in the U.S.
    • “All of those things you hope would come out of your research were starting to happen... Phenomenal. This is like the Holy grail.” – Ron Deibert (23:37)

Present Dangers and the Road Ahead

• The Rising Tide of Surveillance

  • Recent U.S. government contracts with spyware companies signal normalization of invasive surveillance tools (24:00).
  • “The mission we set up for ourselves... is now at the greatest risk it’s ever been in the last 23 years.” – Ron Deibert (24:42)
  • Expresses concern about global ripple effects—authoritarian regimes may be emboldened by the U.S.

• Call to Action

  • “That work doesn’t start in labs or courtrooms. It starts with the rest of us paying attention.” – Dina Temple-Raston (26:08)
  • Ron warns, “We’re in for a very dark period... Our mission now takes on a new meaning in this environment.” (25:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On becoming an accidental cyber watchdog:

  • “I don’t like bullies, especially when they get away with hurting innocent people.” – Ron Deibert (03:09)

• On the revelation of GhostNet:

  • “We were looking over the shoulders of spies who were involved in a global cyber espionage campaign.” – Ron Deibert (14:09)

• On the unexpected impact of Citizen Lab:

  • “A lot of smart people said, ‘Wow, I had no idea that my computer... could also, in the very next minute, be looking back at me.’” – Ron Deibert (15:23)

• On the normalization of commercial surveillance:

  • “I could very well foresee aggressive litigation efforts coming at us and other groups to try to shut us down.” – Ron Deibert (24:42)

• On the urgency for civic awareness:

  • “That work doesn’t start in labs or courtrooms. It starts with the rest of us paying attention.” – Dina Temple-Raston (26:08)

Important Timestamps

• 00:51 — Introduction to Ron Deibert and Citizen Lab
• 01:27 — Ron’s upbringing in Vancouver
• 02:16 — Early inspiration from Watergate hearings
• 07:11 — Academic pivot to technology and the internet
• 09:10 — Deciding to “watch the watchers”
• 10:01 — Founding the Citizen Lab “hacker hothouse”
• 11:33 — Breakthroughs in detecting Chinese censorship
• 12:26–14:37 — The “GhostNet” investigation and its fallout
• 19:35 — Making enemies abroad and at home
• 20:45 — Launching the Siphon anti-censorship tool
• 21:33–23:11 — The Pegasus spyware exposé
• 24:42 — Threats to Citizen Lab’s mission and the future of surveillance
• 26:08 — Closing call to civic engagement

Episode Tone & Style

• The tone is personal, investigative, and urgent—blending narrative storytelling with accessible explanations of complex privacy and security issues.
• Both Deibert and Temple-Raston avoid jargon, focusing on vivid anecdotes and real-world impacts.

Further Resources

• Ron Deibert’s Book: “Chasing Shadows: Cyber Espionage, Subversion, and the Global Fight for Democracy”
• Citizen Lab: citizenlab.ca

This episode offers a gripping behind-the-scenes look at how the fight for digital rights is waged, why vigilance is needed more than ever, and what’s at stake for civil society globally.