Podcast Summary: Click Here – "Former Deputy DNI Sue Gordon: ‘it is conceivable that the world order has already been broken’"

Podcast: Click Here (Recorded Future News)
Episode Air Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Guest: Sue Gordon, former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Sue Gordon, a veteran intelligence official who served as the Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence during the first Trump administration. Amid ongoing upheaval and reductions in national security digital expertise, Gordon provides candid and urgent insights about the fragility of U.S. intelligence, the destabilization of global alliances, and cyber threats. The discussion, originally recorded in April 2025, takes place during major shake-ups within key security and cyber agencies, and reflects on what happens when intelligence systems—and the world order—are at risk of breaking down.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Intelligence in Chaos: A View from the Inside

(01:16 – 02:17)

• Sue Gordon reflects on her lifelong career in intelligence ("came right out of school and got a job with the CIA. That turned out to be a fit. Like peas and carrots").
• Context: The interview was conducted amid major government disruptions — Tariffs paused, sudden firing of NSA Director Tim Hawk, and looming layoffs at CISA.

2. How Adversaries Perceive U.S. Government Disarray

(02:20 – 02:37)

• Gordon emphasizes adversaries see U.S. instability as an opening:
  "I think they see opportunity. If I went back to my real intelligence roots, I'd say this is a great time for mischief." — Sue Gordon (02:27)

3. Briefing President Trump: The Unique Challenges

(04:00 – 07:33)

• Gordon describes daily briefings with President Trump as unusually challenging due to:
  • Trump's economically-driven worldview ("he was our first president that was disproportionately economically, not politically military driven" – 04:36)
  • Lack of understanding about government structures: "He really didn't understand the government at all. Zero." (05:16)
  • Distrust of intelligence over advice from friends ("he trusted others more than us...a guy that will call up a friend of his and he believes them more on South Africa than us" – 05:20)
• "I don't think you have to be malevolent to cause damage." — Sue Gordon (07:34)
• Gordon warns that reforms made without understanding can "break things that you don't understand."

4. The Value of Quiet Competence in National Security

(07:43 – 08:15)

• Gordon uses SpaceX as an analogy:
  • The achievements "create the quiet that things happen in." If disrupted, "I just worry after that."

5. The Fracturing of the World Order

(08:35 – 10:04)

• Gordon posits economic priorities and changing alliances have eroded traditional U.S. advantages: “It is conceivable that the world order is not being challenged, but it’s already been broken and two sides have chosen a place and the US is trying to decide where it’s going to go.” — Sue Gordon (09:09)
• Smaller nations are being forced to choose sides for survival.

6. The Threat of Purges and Cuts to Digital Expertise

(11:56 – 13:33)

• Dina discusses a Trump-era initiative (“Doge”) that led to government firings and the hollowing out of digital infrastructure.
• Gordon warns of the dangers when professional staff are undermined:
  "When you don't include them, you don't connect them, or worse, you undermine them...I just feel it's so destructive." — Sue Gordon (13:07)

7. Cyber as the Defining Realm of Modern Conflict

(14:13 – 15:54)

• Gordon calls this "a consequential moment in the cyber realm" ("Holy smokes, yes." – 14:14)
• The digital world means "anyone for a buck 380 can go any distance...do anything with volumetric effects." — Sue Gordon (14:17)
• Ransomware and cyber-attacks aren’t just about economic loss: "Cyber is fundamentally assaulting trust." — Sue Gordon (15:11)
• Past attacks (Ukrainian power grid, JBS meatpacking, Colonial Pipeline) demonstrate attackers’ ability to disrupt non-obvious targets, amplifying social and economic effects.

8. Rethinking Risk and Cybersecurity Goals

(15:54 – 18:23)

• Gordon argues for resilience over the illusion of total prevention:
  • "You can't stop cyber attacks...but you can build resilience."
  • The U.S. has been too focused on compliance and not enough on understanding risk and collective responsibility.
  • "Putting so much pressure on companies to defend themselves against nation state attack is just myopic." — Sue Gordon (15:57)
• Calls for public education about the systemic and interlinked nature of cyber threats.

9. The Perils and Responsibilities of Offensive Cyber

(18:23 – 19:50)

• The Trump administration’s increased focus on offensive cyber is risky for a country with massive attack surfaces.
• Gordon advises: "Think about what our vision is about what we need to do for both deterrence, for the ability to respond when we must" (18:52).
• Stresses the importance of standards and considering unintended consequences.

10. The "Signal Gate" Controversy and Secure Communications

(19:50 – 23:59)

• Gordon addresses the controversy over using Signal (an encrypted messaging app) for government work.
• She is more concerned with the lack of professional staff to advise on secure practices:
  "I think it shows they're not using their professional staff or the professional staff has been so denuded..." (20:35)
• Signal is appropriate for dinner plans, not state business:
  "With Signal, I would tell every leader that that's what you should use to arrange your dinner plans." — Sue Gordon (22:15)
• Even encrypted messaging is vulnerable if the device is compromised:
  "You just don't know. And all our devices are so complex now, it's hard to even back into all the processes..." (22:51)

11. Cyber Policy Gaps: The National and Local Disconnect

(24:10 – 25:30)

• The technical expertise exists, Gordon says, but policy and authority lag behind—especially beyond the federal level.
• Example: Post-2016 investments in state/local election security.
• Recommends a focus on critical infrastructure: energy, transportation, communications, health.

12. Reimagining Intelligence for the Modern Era

(26:04 – 27:42)

• Gordon urges a reinvention of intelligence, not just incremental change:
  "I would love it if it reimagined itself as though it were newly designed today rather than in 1947. Because this is a very different information world." (26:04)
• Intelligence must become faster, more collaborative, and adept at “second and third order effects.”
• Cyber should be seen not just as "a technical thing" but as "a modality," integrated into all facets of security.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I think they see opportunity. If I went back to my real intelligence roots, I'd say this is a great time for mischief."
  — Sue Gordon (02:27) on how U.S. adversaries perceive government turmoil

• "He really didn't understand the government at all. Zero."
  — Sue Gordon (05:16), on President Trump

• "You don't have to be malevolent to cause damage."
  — Sue Gordon (07:34), on unintended consequences of uninformed leadership

• "It is conceivable that the world order is not being challenged, but it's already been broken."
  — Sue Gordon (09:09), describing the fragility of global alliances

• "When you don't include them, you don't connect them, or worse, you undermine them... I just feel it's so destructive."
  — Sue Gordon (13:07), on the loss of institutional expertise

• "Cyber is fundamentally assaulting trust."
  — Sue Gordon (15:11), summing up the deepest impact of cyber threats

• "Putting so much pressure on companies to defend themselves against nation state attack is just myopic."
  — Sue Gordon (15:57), warning against unrealistic expectations of the private sector

• "With Signal, I would tell every leader that that's what you should use to arrange your dinner plans."
  — Sue Gordon (22:15), on the appropriate use of encrypted messaging

• "I would love it if [intelligence] reimagined itself as though it were newly designed today rather than in 1947."
  — Sue Gordon (26:04), on the need for intelligence reform

Key Timestamps

• 01:16 – Sue Gordon describes her entry into intelligence
• 02:27 – Adversaries' perspective on U.S. instability
• 04:36 – Briefing Trump: economic focus, lack of government knowledge
• 07:34 – Dangers of ignorance in leadership
• 09:09 – The world order might already be broken
• 13:07 – Systemic risk from undermining expertise
• 14:14 – Cyber as a defining, transformational threat
• 15:11 – Assault on institutional trust
• 15:57 – The need to shift from compliance to risk management
• 18:52 – Standards and vision for offensive cyber
• 22:15 – Signal and secure communications: risks and best practices
• 24:10 – Policy gaps and the need for local resilience
• 26:04 – Intelligence needs reinvention for the digital era

Final Thoughts & Tone

Throughout the interview, Gordon’s tone is frank, analytical, and occasionally wry. She expresses respect for the intelligence community but a sense of urgency about its need to keep pace with change—warning that the threats facing national security and the very order of the world are already upon us, not looming in some distant future. The overarching message is clear: reinvention, not just evolution, is urgently needed if the United States is to maintain its resilience and leadership in an age where digital threats are everywhere and alliances more unpredictable than ever.