Mic Drop: A former North Korean IT worker speaks

Summary

Click Here Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Mic Drop: A Former North Korean IT Worker Speaks
Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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Introduction

In the "Mic Drop" episode of Click Here, host Dina Temple-Raston delves into the shadowy world of North Korea’s cyber operations through the personal narrative of Kim Ji Min, a former IT worker who defected from the regime. This episode offers a rare and intimate look into how North Korea leverages its cyber workforce to conduct global cybercrimes, highlighting the human cost behind these digital threats.

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Kim Ji Min’s Story: Life as a North Korean Cyber Operative

Kim Ji Min, a defector from Pyongyang, provides a firsthand account of his life within North Korea's cyber army. Selected for his computer skills, Kim was part of a covert team responsible for executing cyber attacks and financial scams abroad.

“When you first go abroad, you can still feel good for about three years. It's much better than being in North Korea. But those years fly by so fast.”
— Kim Ji Min [00:17]

Kim describes a highly regimented environment where each team operates under strict supervision. Failure to meet expectations leads to severe consequences, including being sent back to North Korea to be replaced.

“It's like the military and each team has a leader. If someone can't do their job, that person is sent back to North Korea and substituted with someone new.”
— Kim Ji Min [01:00]

These cyber operatives are tasked with sophisticated scams, such as sending malware-laden resumes and using AI-generated images to deceive job applicants, primarily targeting the US market.

“The main market for the North Korean IT workers is the US market.”
— Kim Ji Min [06:32]

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PS Corps NGO: Humanizing North Korean Cyber Workers

Dina converses with Bada Nam, the Secretary General of PS Corps, a Seoul-based NGO dedicated to understanding and aiding North Korean defectors. Bada Nam shares his journey from growing up in South Korea amidst anti-North Korean propaganda to recognizing the shared humanity of those on the other side of the DMZ.

“I realized that they are kind of the same people. They are under the oppression of the brutal regime. And actually, we were one family for 5,000 years and just separated for 70 years.”
— Bada Nam [04:40]

His work at PS Corps has shed light on the coercive conditions faced by North Korean cyber workers, who are often viewed not merely as enemies but as victims of a repressive state.

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North Korea’s Cyber Operations: Training and Exploitation

North Korea identifies and trains individuals with aptitude in computer science from a young age. These IT workers are sent abroad, usually to countries like China or Russia, where they operate under constant surveillance and pressure to meet strict quotas.

“North Korea started sending IT workers abroad in large numbers in the 2010s. At that time, it was considered a great opportunity if you could go abroad.”
— Kim Ji Min [06:51]

Living in dorm-style accommodations, these operatives share resources and collaborate under immense stress. Their earnings are largely siphoned off by the regime, with only a small percentage returned to them.

“If they meet the quota, they get a cut maybe 20% of what they earn. The rest goes straight to the regime.”
— Kim Ji Min [07:32]

To ensure compliance, families of these workers remain in North Korea, acting as leverage to prevent defection and maintain control.

“Every North Korean who's going abroad, they need to leave their families back in North Korea, kind of like hostages.”
— Bada Nam [07:47]

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Evolution of Cyber Threats: The Integration of AI

The episode highlights the evolving nature of North Korea’s cyber capabilities, particularly through the development of AI by their cyber units like Research Center 227. This advancement aims to enhance phishing techniques, create more convincing deepfakes, and develop fake influencers to manipulate public opinion and spread propaganda.

“The goal, smarter phishing scams, deepfake recruiters, fake influencers who look just real enough.”
— Dina Temple-Raston [10:07]

Bada Nam warns that the integration of AI will lead to more sophisticated and unpredictable cyber threats, as North Korean operatives become increasingly creative in their methods.

“Very creative. Ways than we expected.”
— Bada Nam [10:44]

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Defection and Advocacy: Kim Ji Min’s New Life

After defecting, Kim Ji Min resides in South Korea, where he continues to work in the IT sector. Despite earning less due to his inability to participate in illicit activities like money laundering, he remains committed to advocating for the rights and improved conditions of former North Korean IT workers.

“He is very happy now and he wanted to improve the IT workers human rights.”
— Bada Nam [12:02]

Kim’s advocacy work underscores the ongoing struggles faced by defectors and the broader implications for human rights within North Korea’s cyber operations.

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Conclusion

"Mic Drop" presents a compelling exploration of North Korea's cyber warfare apparatus through the lens of personal experiences and expert insights. By humanizing the cyber operatives and revealing the oppressive conditions they endure, the episode emphasizes the intersection of human rights and global cybersecurity threats. Kim Ji Min’s story serves as a poignant reminder of the individuals behind the digital attacks that impact the world.

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Notable Quotes

• “The stress and isolation drove many to insanity.”
  — Kim Ji Min [01:29]

• “We were one family for 5,000 years and just separated for 70 years.”
  — Bada Nam [04:40]

• “Every North Korean who's going abroad, they need to leave their families back in North Korea, kind of like hostages.”
  — Bada Nam [07:47]

• “It's like watching colored television in China. Then entering North Korea, it felt like switching to black and white.”
  — Kim Ji Min [11:42]

• “The goal, smarter phishing scams, deepfake recruiters, fake influencers who look just real enough.”
  — Dina Temple-Raston [10:07]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Click Here" illuminates the often-overlooked human dimension of cyber warfare, revealing how a repressive regime like North Korea harnesses technological expertise for malicious purposes. By sharing Kim Ji Min’s experience and featuring insights from PS Corps, Dina Temple-Raston effectively underscores the pressing need to address both cybersecurity threats and the underlying human rights violations that fuel them.

Transcript

[Dina Templerest]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click here.

[Kim Ji Min]

When you first go abroad, you can still feel good for about three years. It's much better than being in North Korea. But those years fly by so fast.

[Dina Templerest]

This is Kim Ji Min. He's a North Korean defector who used to live in Pyongyang. We asked someone to voice his answers for us in English. And once upon a time, not so long ago, he lived a secret life. He was part of a small army of young men trained in computers, sent abroad, and then forced to scam the world on behalf of the government. We don't hear from them often. They usually don't talk. But this week, in a matter of speaking, Kim did.

[Kim Ji Min]

It's like the military and each team has a leader. If someone can't do their job, that person is sent back to North Korea and substituted with someone new.

[Dina Templerest]

What Kim Ji Min makes clear is that the North Koreans who are hacking your inbox pretending to be job applicants are uploading malware laced resumes and AI generated pictures to job sites are actually prisoners themselves.

[Kim Ji Min]

The stress and isolation drove many to insanity.

[Dina Templerest]

I'm Dina Templerest and this is Click Here's Mic Drop, a deeper dive into one of our favorite interviews of the week. And today, a rare voice from inside the North Korean regime. A man who was part of the Hermit Kingdom's massive cyber army and then left it behind. He declined to talk to us directly, but he did share his story with an NGO based in Seoul called PS Corps. And what it provides is a rare peek into the world of North Korea's cyber warriors. Not soldiers in uniform exactly. More like comrades in sweatpants sharing bunk beds, logging on, breaking in, getting paid and watching their backs.

[Kim Ji Min]

We were under constant surveillance.

[Dina Templerest]

Stay with us. Click Here is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. I'm Dena templewest and this is Click Here's Mic Drop. If you grew up in South Korea, North Korea is a bit of an obsession. A lot of South Koreans don't think of the people who live on the other side of the DMZ as long lost cousins. They think of them as the enemy.

[Bada Nam]

North Korea is, was always an enemy. Probably you understand as an American. Like they are communist. They are biggest enemy.

[Dina Templerest]

This is Bada Nam. He's the Secretary General of the PS Corps ngo and he grew up in South Korea and he was raised with a steady diet of government propaganda.

[Bada Nam]

When I was a little kid, there was a kind of like cartoons like North Korea as a wolf doing some strange things. And not only just bad guys, they are threatening entire world and they are threatening our life.

[Dina Templerest]

The cartoon he remembers most, one in which a North Korean general is literally depicted as a wolf. Bada Nam eventually outgrew this version of reality. And as he got older, he began to see the North Koreans not as wolves, but as victims.

[Bada Nam]

I realized that they are kind of like same people. They are under the oppression of the brutal regime. And actually we were one family for 5,000 years and just separated for 70 years. We should be reunificated and need to work, live together, be together, because we are very close actually.

[Dina Templerest]

And in his work at PS Corps, that realization kept coming back in sharper relief. Not just that they should be reunified, but that a lot of North Koreans aren't so much the enemy as they are victims. Something he understood even better when he started talking to IT workers like Kim Ji.

[Cory Doctorow]

You know, in the old Soviet Union, when they saw young kids who were very good athletes, they would train them as very small kids so that they could become like Olympic gymnasts.

[Dina Templerest]

Does the same thing happen in North Korea? Do they look for people who are really good in math and computers?

[Bada Nam]

Yeah, actually, like if you are very smart and in a talented education, then you can learn computers there, computer science. Then you graduated, Then you have some chance to be the IT worker.

[Dina Templerest]

But IT worker doesn't mean what it sounds like. You didn't just land a great job writing code for a startup or developing a great new game. In this case, you're building spyware, infiltrating companies and laundering crypto.

[Kim Ji Min]

The main market for the North Korean IT workers is the US market.

[Dina Templerest]

That was Kim Ji Min, the former North Korean IT worker. Again, once selected, workers like him are sent abroad, usually to China or Russia, somewhere with decent Internet and not too many questions.

[Kim Ji Min]

There is no Internet in North Korea and not many resources for computer science education. North Korea started sending IT workers abroad in large numbers in the 2010s. At that time, it was considered a great opportunity if you could go abroad.

[Dina Templerest]

They live in dorm style houses, sharing meals, swapping code under constant pressure.

[Kim Ji Min]

There is a monthly quota we have to meet. Programmers have to earn more than that to make a profit or send money to their family.

[Dina Templerest]

If they meet the quota, they get a cut maybe 20% of what they earn. The rest goes straight to the regime. But Butta Nam from the Pescor NGO says that money comes with significant strings.

[Bada Nam]

Every North Korean who's going abroad, they need to leave their families back in North Korea, kind of like hostages. They could get some of the promised money, like 5 or 10% of total earnings. They promised money. They could get it when they are coming back to North Korea.

[Dina Templerest]

There aren't just carrots, but also sticks. Families are held sort of hostage not just by the promise of money, but under threat if their family member doesn't do as they're told. So even if you want to escape, your family's safety hangs in the balance. And Kim Ji Min says that balance is under constant surveillance and assessment.

[Kim Ji Min]

Screen monitoring system are installed on all computers. In order to surveil them, team leaders use them for surveillance. Simply not installing the screen monitoring program is considered to be something you shouldn't be doing and you are handled like a criminal.

[Dina Templerest]

There's no real privacy, not online, not offline. Surveillance comes from all sides. What the regime might not see your co workers do and they might report you.

[Bada Nam]

So it is kind of slavery working conditions.

[Dina Templerest]

Of course the regime doesn't see it that way. To them this is a well oiled export operation in which hundreds of millions of dollars are generated by invisible workers. And now that operation is evolving. When we come back we'll explain. Stay with us.

[Cory Doctorow]

How did the Internet go from this?

[Dina Templerest]

You could actually find what you were looking for right away.

[Cory Doctorow]

Bang to this.

[Dina Templerest]

I feel like I'm in hell.

[Cory Doctorow]

Spoiler alert. It was not an accident. I'm Cory Doctorow, host of who Broke the Internet? From CBC's Understood. In this four part series I'm gonna tell you why the Internet sucks now, whose fault it is and my plan to fix it. Find who broke the Internet on whatever terrible app you get. Your podcast.

[Dina Templerest]

We reported earlier this week about a North Korean cyber unit called Research Center 227 that's focused on building a homegrown North Korean AI. The goal, smarter phishing scams, deepfake recruiters, fake influencers who look just real enough. The idea is to blend propaganda with social media influence with illusion, beauty filters, bullet points. Do you believe that in the future.

[Cory Doctorow]

It'S just going to keep AI is just going to keep getting bigger so that these IT workers can do more or fake identities better?

[Bada Nam]

Yeah, absolutely. And even for the illegal IT workers from North Korea, they will use AIs and try to attack our life in a different ways. Very creative. Ways than we expected.

[Dina Templerest]

But even as the tools change, former IT worker Kim Ji Min says the MO stays the same. Pressure, quotas, surveillance, isolation, Rinse and repeat.

[Kim Ji Min]

When you first go abroad, you can still feel good for about three years. It's much better than being in North Korea. But those years fly by so fast.

[Dina Templerest]

And then the glow fades and the gray sets in.

[Kim Ji Min]

Once flying into North Korea from China, I thought to myself that it is like watching colored television in China. Then entering North Korea, it felt like switching to black and white.

[Dina Templerest]

Bada Nam says Kim Ji Min eventually got out of North Korea. He lives in South Korea now, but he still works in it.

[Bada Nam]

He said that actually he's earning less money than when he was in China because he cannot do money laundering. But she said he's very happy now and he wanted to improve the IT workers human rights.

[Dina Templerest]

And his wanting to improve North Korea's IT worker rights, well, that might be the most subversive code of all Foreign From Recorded Future News this has been Click Here's Mic Drop. It was written and produced by Megan Dietre, Sean Powers, Erica Gaeda, Zach Hirsch, Lucas Riley and me, Dina Templraston. It was edited by Karen Duffin. Special thanks this week to Charles Rue for voicing our North Korean defector. We'll be back on Tuesday with an all new episode of Click Here. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.

[Unknown]

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