Mic Drop: Australia’s attempt to keep kids off social media

Summary

Click Here Podcast Episode Summary Episode: Mic Drop: Australia’s Attempt to Keep Kids Off Social Media
Release Date: January 24, 2025
Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Guests: John Payne (Privacy Advocate), Julie Inman Grant (Australia’s eSafety Commissioner)

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Introduction

In the “Mic Drop” episode of Click Here, host Dina Temple-Raston delves into Australia’s ambitious and controversial move to ban social media for children under the age of 16. This landmark legislation, intertwined with Australia’s stringent surveillance law known as TOCA, aims to reshape the digital landscape for young Australians. The episode features insightful discussions with privacy advocate John Payne and Australia’s eSafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant, shedding light on the multifaceted implications of this policy.

Background of Australia’s Social Media Ban

Australia’s recent legislative efforts have focused on two major fronts: the TOCA surveillance law and the sweeping ban on social media for minors. TOCA mandates that tech companies provide backdoors for law enforcement access, positioning it as one of the strictest surveillance laws globally. Building on this, in late 2024, the Australian Parliament enacted a law prohibiting children under 16 from accessing social media platforms. This dual approach underscores the government’s intent to assert control over digital interactions among youth.

Privacy Concerns and Criticisms

John Payne, a seasoned privacy advocate, voices significant reservations about the practicality and ramifications of the social media ban. At [01:20], Payne critiques the government’s optimistic outlook:

“The government has this view that by putting a ban on social media... kids will come flooding back onto the sporting fields... It’s like, no, you know it’s not going to happen.”

Payne emphasizes the ambiguity surrounding the law’s implementation and its potential to unintentionally infringe upon broader privacy rights. He highlights that the law’s efficacy is questionable, and its enforcement mechanisms may lead to unintended privacy violations not just for minors but for all users.

Government Perspective and Enforcement Strategies

Julie Inman Grant, Australia’s eSafety Commissioner, offers the government’s standpoint on the necessity of the ban. Speaking at a Council on Foreign Relations panel in D.C., Grant analogizes the ban to historical safety regulations in the automotive industry:

“Think about all the lifesaving technologies we take for granted that are in our cars... embed the virtual seat belt and erect the digital guardrails to prevent the next tech wreck from happening.” ([04:24])

Grant outlines the government’s strategy to embed safeguards within social media platforms to protect children, likening it to implementing safety features in vehicles. She discusses the responsibilities imposed on tech companies to ensure compliance, threatening multimillion-dollar fines for non-adherence ([04:45]).

Age Verification Challenges

A central challenge of the ban is accurately verifying users’ ages online. The episode explores various proposed methods and their associated privacy concerns:

• Biometrics: Utilizing facial recognition and age estimation based on physical features. John Payne warns about the risks of handling sensitive biometric data ([09:04]).

• Behavioral Tracking: Analyzing browsing history and user behavior to infer age, which can lead to misclassifications and privacy infringements ([10:12]).

• AI Hand Movements: Grant mentions an AI technology that interprets hand gestures to determine age with claimed 99% accuracy ([10:27]).

Payne underscores the inadequacy of these methods, stating:

“None of these options can accurately verify someone's age online in a way that respects people's right to privacy and keeps their data safe.” ([11:23])

He points out the vulnerabilities involved in data collection and the potential for misuse, advocating for more privacy-respecting solutions.

Comparisons to Other Jurisdictions

The episode draws parallels between Australia’s approach and similar legislative efforts elsewhere, notably Florida’s 2025 law banning social media for children under 14. Unlike Australia, Florida’s law encounters constitutional challenges grounded in the First Amendment, reflecting the United States’ strong protections for free speech. John Payne highlights Australia’s unique position:

“We're probably the last liberal democracy in the world not to have an omnibus national bill of rights.” ([08:45])

This absence makes Australia more susceptible to implementing stringent digital restrictions without facing the same level of judicial scrutiny seen in the U.S.

Potential Implications on Digital Rights

The legislation poses several risks to digital rights and freedoms:

• Privacy Infringement: Increased surveillance and data collection methods could lead to widespread privacy violations.

• Impact on Marginalized Groups: Restricted access may disproportionately affect children in remote areas or those from marginalized communities who rely on social media for social connection and support ([06:06]).

• Autonomy and Expression: John Payne argues that the ban undermines children’s autonomy and their growing engagement in political and social discourse ([06:18]).

Furthermore, enforcing the age limit may push minors towards unregulated parts of the internet, exacerbating exposure to harmful content rather than mitigating it.

Conclusion and Future Outlook

As Australia prepares to implement the social media ban in December 2025, the debate continues. John Payne remains committed to challenging the legislation, advocating for a reevaluation of its human rights and privacy implications. He asserts:

“The fight isn't over yet, it's just intermission.” ([13:44])

The episode concludes by emphasizing the ongoing struggle between governmental regulation and digital freedoms, highlighting the pivotal role of digital rights advocates in shaping the future of online interactions for youth.

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Notable Quotes:

• John Payne ([01:20]): “The government has this view that by putting a ban on social media... kids will come flooding back onto the sporting fields... It’s like, no, you know it’s not going to happen.”

• Jonathan Haidt ([02:25]): “A flip phone wasn't engineered to hold your attention forever, but a smartphone is.”

• Julie Inman Grant ([04:24]): “Think about all the lifesaving technologies we take for granted that are in our cars... embed the virtual seat belt and erect the digital guardrails to prevent the next tech wreck from happening.”

• John Payne ([11:23]): “None of these options can accurately verify someone's age online in a way that respects people's right to privacy and keeps their data safe.”

• John Payne ([13:44]): “The fight isn't over yet, it's just intermission.”

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This comprehensive overview captures the essence of the episode, presenting the multifaceted debate surrounding Australia’s attempt to restrict social media access for minors. By incorporating direct quotes with timestamps and dividing the content into clear sections, the summary provides an engaging and informative account suitable for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Dena Temple Rasted]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here. Were you really a bouncer at Limelight in New York?

[John Payne]

Yeah, I was, about 1990. I used to date a tall girl there as well. She had bleached white hair. I had bleached white hair as well.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

So it's a natural progression from being a bouncer at Limelight to becoming an expert on privacy.

[John Payne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

I'm Dena Temple Rasted and this is Click Here's Mic Drop. A longer listen to one of our favorite interviews of the week. On Tuesday, we told you about an Australian surveillance law that requires tech companies to build back doors for law enforcement just for the asking. The law, known as tola, is now considered one of the strictest surveillance laws in the world. Which may be why when the parliament in Australia imposed a sweeping ban on social media for kids under 16 back in late 2024, no one was that surprised. Privacy advocate John Payne says no one seems sure how it will actually work.

[John Payne]

The government has this view that by putting a ban on social media that when this bill becomes law in one year's time, kids will come, you know, flooding back onto the sporting fields around the country to play football and play cricket and golf and basketball. It's like, no, you know, it's not going to happen.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Stay with us. I'm Dena Temple Roster and this is Click Here's Mic Drop. For years now, there's been growing concern about what social media might do to kids brains and their mental health. The genesis of this movement began with a writer named Jonathan Haidt. He, he wrote a book called the Anxious Generation and he basically laid out every parent's worst nightmare about tech and their kids.

[Jonathan Haidt]

A flip phone wasn't engineered to hold your attention forever, but a smartphone is.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Jonathan Haidt talking at Intelligence Squared in the uk.

[Jonathan Haidt]

And so kids are now, they're watching videos, the boys are watching porn, they're communicating with their parents during class. Why are we doing this?

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Just a quick note here. Jonathan Haidt is a controversial figure. His critics say he's played on parents fears. The research behind say the effect of smartphones on kids isn't as conclusive as height makes it sound. But most parents can see for themselves that social media has an unsettling ability to rock their kids world. All of which could explain why Australia's Prime Minister announced the new social media ban himself.

[John Payne]

Social media is doing social harm to our young Australians and I am calling time on it. I want Australian parents to know that we have your back.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

It turns out one of the Officials in charge of rolling out the Aussie ban is actually an American Julie Inman.

[Julie Inman Grant]

Grant if people think we're just going to flip a switch and they're under 16, you know those accounts are going to disappear. That probably won't be the reality. So we have a lot to figure out. We're not strangers.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

This is Grant speaking at a Council on Foreign relations panel in D.C. she's been Australia's e safety commissioner since 2017, and she's been at the forefront of tackling issues like revenge porn and online harassment and now kids in social media. And she says this isn't just about age gating kids, it's about a cultural shift, one that she likens to what happened in the US in the 1970s and 80s when there was this whole movement in Congress to make cars safer. This is Grant talking about it with Politico.

[Julie Inman Grant]

Think about all the life saving technologies we take for granted that are in our cars, from airbags to antilock brakes. So the analogy would be embed the virtual seat belt and erect the digital guardrails to prevent the next tech wreck from happening.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Among other things, the law makes social media companies responsible for making sure kids under 16 aren't on their platforms. And if they don't follow through in doing so, it could trigger multimillion dollar fines.

[John Payne]

Platforms now have a social responsibility to ensure the safety of our kids is a priority for them.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Beyond that, John Payne says there are just a slew of open questions. And his fear is that the way platforms decide to answer those questions may do more than what the law intends. So they won't just keep kids safe online, but could end up infringing on everybody's privacy, adults included, among other things, he says it's not even clear what platforms the ban applies to. The prime Minister has said Snapchat, TikTok, Instagram and X will be covered for sure. But beyond that, it's up to the country's communications minister to decide, which John says concentrates too much power in one place.

[John Payne]

It puts the locus of power in the hands of the communications minister and one regulatory body, which is the Esafety commissioner. And they can do that by issuing regulations in the absence of parliamentary oversight and debate.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

John worries that the limiting access could end up harming young people in marginalized groups or kids living in remote areas who are largely isolated without social media.

[John Payne]

We think that it doesn't make due consideration of the human rights impact of the bill. It infringes upon children's autonomy, their agency and even their political rights. And kids these days are expressing themselves politically, younger and younger compared to previous generations.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

But most of all, what worries John is something baked right into the law. That 16 year old age limit. How do you even begin to verify how old someone is online?

[John Payne]

Everyone is not of age until they prove themselves otherwise. So in fact, everyone becomes a suspect.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

That's when we come back.

[Jonathan Haidt]

You come to the New Yorker Radio Hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from, whether it's Bruce Springsteen or Questlove or Olivia Rodrigo, Liz Cheney, or the godfather of artificial intelligence, Jeffrey Hinton, or some of my extraordinarily well informed colleagues at the New Yorker. So join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

Australia isn't alone in its efforts to curtail youth access to the Internet. And at the start of this year, 2025, a new law in Florida went into effect that bans kids under the age of 14 from using social media. But the law now faces some constitutional challenges. The thing that they hide behind here in the United States is the First Amendment right. So lots of these things get stopped in their tracks because we have a First Amendment. There's no First Amendment in Australia.

[John Payne]

We do have an implied right to free political speech in our Constitution and upheld by a high court, but we don't have a similar as given to the Americans under your Constitution. We're probably the last liberal democracy in the world not to have an omnibus national bill of rights. And this is something that we really, really need. You know, we want digital rights.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

John worries that Australia's new law will end up violating those not so totally protected digital rights. Because there are only a handful of ways to know whether someone is a kid online. You can, of course, ask.

[John Payne]

Some involve simple, you know, ticking a box. Yes, I'm over the age of 18.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

But how would you know if someone is being truthful? It makes me think of a meme from all the way back in the 1990s about identifying people online. There was a large dog sitting on a chair at a desk and his paw is on the keyboard of a computer and he's speaking to a smaller dog sitting below him. And he says, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. So if you want to get tougher than a pinky promise, I'm neither a dog nor a child. You have to start looking at the kinds of options that worry John Payne. Things like biometrics, the automated recognition of individuals, which looks, among other things, at facial features and estimates age based on that that means, of course, handing off personal biometric data. That's already happening, by the way, in a lot of airport security checks. Another option platforms have looked at is tracking behavioral signals, looking at your browser.

[John Payne]

History, for example, and estimating the age from your viewing habits.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

So lots of Scooby Doo and Taylor Swift searches could get you banned. And that would be bad news for Bronies.

[John Payne]

I am a Brony.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

That's right, the adult fan club. Mostly men who love the cartoon My Little Pony. Another option Julie Inman Grant, the eSafety commissioner suggests, is a technology that uses AI to look at hand hand movements, like say, holding up a peace sign and then a fist to the camera. And believe it or not, AI can use that to figure out your age. It claims to have a 99% success rate, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Of course, the government already does have a way to confirm age in real life. Government IDs, like driver's license, people could just be required to upload those.

[John Payne]

And of course, the more intrusive is providing identity documents that are issued by the state to validate the surety that you're of age. So each of those methods involve increasing intervention.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

The problem, John says, is that none of these options can accurately verify someone's age online in a way that respects people's right to privacy and keeps their data safe. Millions of people uploading IDs, credit cards and biometrics into a database puts a lot of that very sensitive information at risk of being stolen. And it forces people to kind of opt in to being surveilled.

[John Payne]

And that could lead to even more sophisticated technologies being required to enforce this ban, which only adversely affects the privacy of all Internet users, not just under 16 year olds.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

But even if you ignore all of those concerns, and the government does find a way to enforce this law while protecting privacy, John Payne thinks the law fundamentally is trying to solve for a problem it doesn't fully understand.

[John Payne]

The government has this view that by putting a ban on social media, that when this bill becomes law in one year's time, kids will come flooding back onto the sporting fields around the country to play football, play cricket and golf.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

And be nice to their parents.

[John Payne]

That's like, no, you know it's not going to happen. If they don't subvert the technology, the check the checks that you're required to prove age by using Tor or using a vpn, they're going to go off into darker parts of the Internet that don't have this type of regulation or don't care, or they're simply going to spend time on a different technology platform and it could be gaming, it could be PlayStation, it could be anything.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

I guess parents would say that if everyone doesn't have it, it makes it easier for them to say no, rather than being the exception to the rule.

[John Payne]

Yeah, it's very, very difficult. And the argument's no same as a parent too, wanting the latest pair of Nikes or Chuck Taylors or Except now that these consumable items that we get are smartphones.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

The law actually takes effect about a year from now in December 2025, time that John says he'll be using to push the government to rethink the law through the lens of human rights and privacy.

[John Payne]

The fight isn't over yet, it's just intermission. So there'll be a lot more fighting from digital rights advocates like us to try and, you know, get some sense and sensibility built into this legislation.

[Dena Temple Rasted]

We'll keep you posted. This is Click Here. Spectrum.

[Zach Hirsch]

Today's episode was produced by Zach Hirsch, Megan Dietrich, Erica Guida, Sean Powers, and Dina Temple Raster. It was edited by Karen Duffin, Fact Checked by Darren Inkrum, and contains original music by Ben Levingston with some other music from Blue Dot sessions. Our staff writer is Lucas Riley and our illustrator is Megan Gough. Martin Peralta is our sound designer and engineer. Click Here is a production of Recorded Future News and prx. Tune in on Friday for Mic Drop, which features our favorite interview of the week week. We'll have a new episode of Click Here on Tuesday. We'll see you then.

[Unknown]

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