Podcast Summary: Click Here – “Mic Drop: Former Deputy DNI Sue Gordon: ‘It is Conceivable That the World Order Has Already Been Broken’”

Introduction

In the April 18, 2025 episode of Click Here, hosted by Dina Temple-Raston and the Recorded Future News team, listeners are introduced to a compelling conversation with Sue Gordon, the former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence (ODNI). Gordon shares her extensive experience within the intelligence community, shedding light on the tumultuous period during the Trump administration and offering profound insights into the current and future landscape of cybersecurity and national security.

Navigating the Trump Administration

Gordon begins by reflecting on her tenure during the Trump era, highlighting the unique challenges posed by President Trump's leadership style and priorities.

• Economic Over Political Focus: She notes, “President Trump was our first president that was disproportionately economically, not politically, militarily driven” (04:23). This shift led to intelligence questions that the community was less accustomed to addressing, particularly those related to economic leverage.

• Lack of Understanding of Government Operations: Gordon criticizes President Trump’s comprehension of governmental structures, stating, “He really didn’t understand the government at all. Zero” (05:39). This lack of understanding complicated communication and policy implementation within intelligence agencies.

• Distrust in Intelligence Community: A significant concern was the President’s tendency to trust personal contacts over intelligence officials. Gordon explains, “He will call up a friend of his and he believes them more on South Africa than us” (05:41). This erosion of trust undermined the intelligence community’s role and effectiveness.

Gordon summarizes the impact of these factors by saying, “We thought he had the what and we had the how. What seems to be done now is he’s got the what and he tells them how” (06:40). This reversal disrupted the traditional dynamics between intelligence agencies and presidential decision-making.

Impact on Cybersecurity and National Infrastructure

The discussion shifts to the broader implications of administrative instability on national security, particularly in the cyber realm.

• Systemic Vulnerabilities: Gordon warns of a “gap between what we can do and what can be affected locally” (16:32). She emphasizes the need for comprehensive protection of critical infrastructure, including energy, transportation, communications, and health sectors.

• Ransomware and Cyber Attacks: Highlighting recent incidents, she references the ransomware attacks on JBS and Colonial Pipeline, illustrating how cyber disruptions can have both economic and terroristic effects (16:32). Gordon stresses that these attacks are not merely technical issues but assaults on the foundational trust within societal institutions.

Communication Practices and Security Concerns

A significant portion of the conversation addresses secure communication practices among government officials and the potential vulnerabilities they create.

• Use of Signal App: Gordon critiques the adoption of Signal for official communications, expressing concerns about its security. She states, “I do think new administrations do suffer from not understanding why things are done certain way” (19:20). Gordon underscores the importance of using secure channels to prevent adversaries from exploiting communication patterns.

• Spyware and Device Security: Discussing the limitations of encrypted apps like Signal, she notes, “You don’t know... all our devices are so complex now, it’s hard to even back into all the processes that are running” (21:56). This complexity makes it challenging to secure devices against sophisticated spyware.

Recommendations for Strengthening Cybersecurity

Gordon offers strategic recommendations to bridge the existing gaps in cybersecurity and national intelligence.

• Building Resilience Over Compliance: She advocates for a shift in focus from mere compliance to building resilience, emphasizing that it’s impossible to stop all cyber attacks. “We need to build the capability to achieve what we want and talk more about risk than compliance” (15:08).

• Comprehensive Infrastructure Protection: Emphasizing the need for robust infrastructure, Gordon advises, “Take a really hard look at our infrastructure, especially in that light. Start with energy, transportation, communications, and health” (23:20).

• Policy and Authority Enhancement: To effectively respond to cyber threats, she insists on the necessity of empowering agencies with the right policies and authorities. “Think about use cases, address our ability to deter and defend, and put all the things in place that you need to affect that” (23:20).

Reimagining Intelligence for the Digital Age

Concluding the discussion, Gordon envisions a transformed intelligence community that is agile and better suited to modern challenges.

• Modernizing Intelligence Frameworks: Gordon calls for intelligence to be “reimagined as though it were newly designed today rather than in 1947” (25:15). She highlights the need for faster, more collaborative approaches that transcend Cold War-era mindsets.

• Emphasizing Information and Patterns: She emphasizes the importance of leveraging vast information sources to identify patterns and second-order effects. “Double down on finding patterns so that you can have more understanding than capability knowledge” (25:33).

• Cyber as a Strategic Modality: Gordon insists that cyber should be viewed not just as a technical domain but as a strategic modality that intersects with all aspects of national and economic security. “Cyber is just the new means to achieve the objectives of any interested party” (15:08).

Conclusion

Sue Gordon’s insights provide a sobering assessment of the current state of national intelligence and cybersecurity. She underscores the critical need for modernization, enhanced resilience, and strategic policy reforms to safeguard against evolving threats. Her call to reimagine intelligence operations reflects a forward-thinking approach essential for navigating the complexities of the digital age.

Notable Quotes

• “President Trump was our first president that was disproportionately economically, not politically, militarily driven.” (04:23)

• “He really didn’t understand the government at all. Zero.” (05:39)

• “You have to have a vision of what you want to do, and you have to have an idea of how that system works.” (06:53)

• “Cyber is fundamentally assaulting trust.” (14:22)

• “We need to build the capability to achieve what we want and talk more about risk than compliance.” (15:08)

• “Intelligence has the potential to be the hero of this moment’s story.” (26:09)

Further Listening

For those interested in the intersection of cybersecurity and intelligence, Click Here offers in-depth analysis and expert interviews. Explore more episodes and stay informed on the critical issues shaping our digital world.