Summary of "Mic Drop: Gen. Charlie 'Tuna' Moore: Cyber Wars Don’t Wait for Consensus"

Click Here Podcast | Host: Dina Temple-Raston | Released: May 2, 2025

Introduction

In the May 2, 2025 episode of Click Here, hosted by Dina Temple-Raston of Recorded Future News, the spotlight is on the volatile landscape of American cyber defense. The guest, Lieutenant General Charlie "Tuna" Moore, former deputy commander of U.S. Cyber Command, discusses critical developments and challenges facing the nation's cybersecurity infrastructure. The conversation delves into recent high-profile events, including the unexpected firing of NSA Director General Tim Hawk, pauses in offensive cyber operations against Russia, and significant reorganizations within the Pentagon.

The Origin of 'Tuna'

The episode begins with a light-hearted exchange about Moore's unique call sign, "Tuna." Contrary to expectations, Moore doesn't resemble the popular character "Charlie the Tuna."

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [00:22]: "You have beret glasses in the cool glasses."

Moore explains that call signs in the fighter pilot community are a rite of passage, often stemming from training mishaps or personal interests. His affinity for water sports led to the moniker "Charlie the Tuna," which he embraces as a symbol of camaraderie within the military family.

The Firing of Gen. Tim Hawk: A Turning Point

The conversation shifts to the surprise dismissal of NSA Director General Tim Hawk, a move that sent ripples through the cyber intelligence community.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [04:12]: "I was surprised."

Moore recounts how he first learned of Hawk's firing through a newsfeed, promptly verifying the information across multiple sources. The firing reignited debates over the dual-hatting model established in 2010, where U.S. Cyber Command and the NSA share leadership to unify intelligence and operational efforts in cyberspace.

Debate on Splitting Cyber Command and NSA

The dual-hatted structure aims to streamline decision-making and enhance coordination between intelligence gathering and offensive cyber operations. However, critics argue that it blurs the lines between espionage and cyber warfare.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [05:12]: "We need this close alignment between our digital information gathering enterprise, the National Security Agency, and then the organization that's responsible for achieving effects in that domain."

Moore advocates for maintaining the unified command structure, emphasizing that the speed and complexity of cyber threats necessitate a single chain of command to ensure timely and effective responses.

Current Challenges in U.S. Cyber Defense

Dina highlights a series of setbacks confronting U.S. cyber operations, including:

• Deep staff cuts at the Digital Service Office.
• Mass layoffs at the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA).
• The dismissal of an entire cybersecurity review board.
• A reported pause in offensive cyber operations against Russia.

These disruptions raise concerns about the stability and readiness of American cyber defenses.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [08:18]: "When you let somebody go from an organization as big as the national security agency and U.S. cyber command, you know that's disruptive."

Despite these challenges, Moore remains cautiously optimistic, particularly regarding the prioritization of artificial intelligence (AI) in developing advanced cyber capabilities.

Should Cyber Become Its Own Military Branch?

A provocative suggestion discussed is whether cybersecurity should be elevated to its own branch of the military, similar to the Space Force. Moore firmly opposes this notion.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [09:53]: "What we need is a DoD-wide culture as it relates to cyber, not a standalone specific service."

He argues that cyber operations are integral to all military domains—land, sea, air, and space—and should be seamlessly integrated into existing services rather than isolated into a separate branch. This approach ensures that cyber considerations are embedded in all aspects of military operations.

Predictions for 2025 and the Nature of Cyber Threats

When asked about his outlook for the coming year, Moore expresses uncertainty due to the unpredictable nature of the digital environment.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [10:58]: "this is extremely hard to predict from a threat perspective."

He highlights the emergence of unforeseen threats, such as zero-day vulnerabilities and advanced malware, making proactive defense a significant challenge.

Volt Typhoon and Salt Typhoon: Chinese Cyber Operations

A substantial portion of the discussion focuses on Chinese cyber operations, specifically Volt Typhoon and Salt Typhoon.

• Volt Typhoon: Targets U.S. critical infrastructure, including water, power, and communications.
• Salt Typhoon: Focuses on surveillance of telecommunications systems to monitor and collect global communication data.

Moore likens these operations to traditional intelligence gathering, emphasizing their strategic purpose rather than causing immediate harm.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [12:19]: "This is called intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, or espionage in the cyber domain."

He underscores that while these activities remain below the threshold of an act of war, they pose significant risks by preparing for potential future conflicts.

U.S.-China Cyber Dynamics and Policy Implications

Moore discusses the delicate balance in U.S.-China relations within cyberspace. Recent backchannel talks suggest China views these cyber operations as strategic leverage against U.S. positions, particularly concerning Taiwan.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [14:35]: "This is a very interesting development... make it very clear this is unacceptable."

He advocates for a robust policy response, building international coalitions to condemn and deter such cyber espionage activities. Moore emphasizes that civilian targets in cyber operations are akin to planting explosives in public infrastructure—unacceptable actions that demand a unified stance.

The Economic Angle in Cyber Power Dynamics

Moore touches on the economic vulnerabilities that influence cyber strategies, particularly China's disadvantaged economic position.

Notable Quote:

Lt. Gen. Charlie Tuna Moore [16:03]: "They’re in a significantly disadvantaged position economically and they know it."

He suggests that economic interdependence serves as a deterrent against aggressive cyber actions, positioning the U.S. favorably in the cyber power hierarchy.

Conclusion

Lt. Gen. Charlie "Tuna" Moore offers a comprehensive overview of the current state and future directions of American cyber defense. Despite internal upheavals and escalating external threats, he underscores the necessity of maintaining a unified command structure, fostering a DoD-wide cyber culture, and proactively addressing international cyber espionage through cohesive policy measures. The episode highlights the intricate balance between maintaining robust defenses and adapting to the ever-evolving digital threat landscape.

Notable Takeaways:

• Unified Command is Crucial: Maintaining a single leadership for Cyber Command and NSA ensures swift and coordinated responses to cyber threats.

• Cultural Integration Over Structural Separation: Embedding cyber responsibilities across all military branches fosters comprehensive defense strategies.

• Proactive Policy Responses Needed: Building international coalitions to condemn cyber espionage is essential in deterring hostile cyber activities.

• Economic Leverage in Cyber Defense: Economic vulnerabilities play a significant role in shaping cyber power dynamics, particularly in U.S.-China relations.

This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Dina Temple-Raston and Lt. Gen. Charlie "Tuna" Moore, providing insights into the challenges and strategies shaping U.S. cyber defense.