Mic Drop: Mark Zaid’s ‘red badge of courage’

Summary

Click Here Podcast: "Mic Drop: Mark Zaid’s ‘Red Badge of Courage’"

Release Date: February 21, 2025
Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Guest: Marc Zaid

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Mic Drop: Mark Zaid’s ‘Red Badge of Courage’," Dina Temple-Raston delves into the tumultuous experiences of Marc Zaid, a prominent national security attorney renowned for representing government whistleblowers across the political spectrum. The conversation unveils the recent challenges Zaid faces, specifically a targeted campaign of retribution orchestrated by the Trump administration following his involvement in high-profile whistleblower cases.

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Marc Zaid: The National Security Attorney

Marc Zaid introduces himself humorously yet poignantly, highlighting the unique and often misunderstood nature of his profession:

Marc Zaid [00:48]: "I always describe that I am a national security attorney. I am an attorney for spies. Usually, my malpractice insurance company doesn't understand what that means. So I am an employment lawyer. But I am one for spies."

With over three decades of experience, Zaid has become the go-to lawyer for whistleblowers from both Republican and Democrat administrations. His expertise lies in navigating the complex legal landscapes that protect individuals within the classified realms of government agencies like the CIA.

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A Campaign of Retaliation

The heart of the episode centers on the Trump administration's recent actions against Zaid, marking a significant shift in how former administrations treat legal representatives of whistleblowers. After the Trump administration took office, numerous protective details were withdrawn from high-ranking officials, and media members were ousted from key positions within the Pentagon and the White House. Among those singled out was Marc Zaid himself.

Dina Temple-Raston [01:04]: "For decades now, he's represented a huge array of government whistleblowers, both Republican and Democrat. But now he's seeing something he's never really seen before, a campaign of retribution and revenge that is targeting a lot of the people who have traditionally been his clients."

Zaid recounts the moment he learned of the administration's move against him:

Marc Zaid [01:38]: "I was at a wedding of a colleague when text messages and actually reporters had started calling but I wasn't paying attention because I was at the wedding. And then I got a text message from a colleague that said something to the effect of 'so sorry to hear what happened.' And I was like, 'what are you talking about? What happened?' And he's like, 'Trump took your clearance away.'"

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The Ukraine Call and Impeachment

Zaid's involvement in the Trump-Zelensky call dispute is a pivotal element leading to his current predicament. He represented the initial whistleblower who brought to light the controversial 2019 phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky—a call that became central to the first impeachment hearings against Trump.

Dina Temple-Raston [05:09]: "The thing that's probably put Mark Zaid in Trump's crosshairs has to do with Ukraine and a phone call. He represents the first whistleblower who flagged the now infamous 2019 Trump Zelensky call."

Zaid expresses confusion over why the administration targeted him long after the call became public and after his clearances had previously been affirmed:

Marc Zaid [07:34]: "I have never been either a Democrat or Republican. As Jerry Seinfeld says, there's nothing wrong with that. I have been a registered independent my entire adult life. I have gone out of my way to represent both right wing and left wing causes and clients. In fact, the only job offers I've ever had in the government have been from Republicans."

Despite the initial acquittal following Trump's first impeachment trial, Zaid's clearances not only remained intact but were also expanded, allowing him continued access to sensitive cases, including those involving the Department of Homeland Security.

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Escalating Retaliation

Despite maintaining professionalism and legal integrity, Zaid finds himself increasingly targeted. The New York Post reported that his security clearances were revoked simultaneously with actions against other high-profile figures like New York Attorney General Letitia James and Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, both of whom were prosecuting Trump-related cases.

Dina Temple-Raston [07:01]: "Allegedly, Mark's clearances were stripped at the same time as people like New York Attorney General Letitia James and Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney. They both brought business cases against Trump and, among other things, charged him with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to conceal hush money payments to a porn star. Mark's transgression, according to the New York Post story, was that he was an anti Trumper, which he says is just crazy talk."

Zaid vehemently denies any partisan bias, emphasizing his lifelong commitment to representing clients across the political spectrum:

Marc Zaid [07:58]: "I have never been either a Democrat or Republican. As Jerry Seinfeld says, there's nothing wrong with that. I have been a registered independent my entire adult life. I have gone out of my way to represent both right wing and left wing causes and clients."

He criticizes the Trump administration's misuse of the justice system and intelligence community to target perceived enemies indiscriminately:

Marc Zaid [08:07]: "What we have seen is the mobilization of it to an extent we have never seen before, probably for the most part, in many of our lifetimes. The Trump administration in particular is really going out of their way to target anyone who it perceives to be an enemy, and at times is capturing people who, frankly had nothing to do with things. I mean, kind of think they're catching dolphins in the tuna net."

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Current Challenges and Future Actions

Zaid remains uncertain about the status of his security clearances, having received no official notification from the U.S. Government:

Marc Zaid [10:58]: "I have received no official notification from the US Government with respect to my clearance. The most I know is what was said in the New York Post."

He underscores the lack of procedural safeguards in the revocation of clearances, which theoretically should afford individuals the opportunity to defend themselves:

Marc Zaid [11:11]: "In a normal world, we are supposed to have procedural, if not substantive due process protections. You're not supposed to just be able to revoke or deny someone's clearance without their opportunity to defend it. So theoretically, I can go and challenge the fact that I was denied due process."

Despite these challenges, Zaid remains resolute in his fight against what he perceives as unjust retaliation:

Marc Zaid [11:36]: "I am picking my fights and any effort to go against me or my client simply emboldens me to fight harder. And I will. And so up to you, President Trump."

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Involvement in Current Administration Issues

Ironically, Zaid continues to engage with current administration matters, such as assisting Trump-appointed officials in securing their security clearances. Additionally, he is involved in representing victims of the so-called Havana Syndrome—diplomatic personnel in Cuba experiencing unexplained health issues, which some attribute to new weaponry. Zaid alleges a possible Biden administration cover-up regarding these incidents and is actively working to bring these whistleblowers to Capitol Hill for investigation.

Marc Zaid [09:35]: "There are very senior people in this administration, Trump wise, who I am already representing and have been for years."

However, this involvement further complicates his relationship with the prevailing administration, potentially exacerbating the threat against his professional standing.

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Conclusion

Marc Zaid’s story, as presented in this episode of "Click Here," underscores the precarious position of national security attorneys who navigate the intricate and often perilous intersection of law, intelligence, and politics. His unwavering dedication to representing whistleblowers, regardless of political affiliation, highlights the challenges of maintaining legal integrity in an environment where administrations may seek to undermine dissenting voices. Zaid’s resilience and commitment to due process serve as a testament to the enduring struggle for accountability and transparency within the U.S. government.

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Notable Quotes

• Marc Zaid [00:48]: "I am an attorney for spies... I am one for spies."
• Marc Zaid [01:38]: "Trump took your clearance away."
• Marc Zaid [08:07]: "The Trump administration... is really going out of their way to target anyone who it perceives to be an enemy... catching dolphins in the tuna net."
• Marc Zaid [11:36]: "Any effort to go against me or my client simply emboldens me to fight harder. And I will. And so up to you, President Trump."

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About the Podcast

"Click Here" by Recorded Future News, hosted by Dina Temple-Raston, explores true stories about the individuals shaping the digital landscape. Focusing on cybersecurity and intelligence without the technical jargon, the podcast offers listeners an inside look at ransomware attacks, hacker activities, and the efforts to combat digital threats. Episodes are released every Tuesday and Friday, blending investigative journalism with compelling narratives.

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Produced by: Sean Powers, Megan Dietree, Erica Gaeda, and Dina Temple-Raston
Edited by: Karen Duffin

Transcript

[Dena Temple Reston]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here. So I read somewhere that you like to meet people at Dave and Buster's. Is that really true?

[Marc Zaid]

I went to Dave and Buster's literally Friday night for Valentine's Day.

[Dena Temple Reston]

So that's awesome.

[Marc Zaid]

I'm all for Dave and Buster's.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Okay, noted. Noted. From Recorded Future News, this is Click here's mic drop. A longer listen to one of our favorite interviews of the week. I'm Dena Temple Reston and today we're talking to Marc Zaid, who's kind of a fixture in the American intelligence community.

[Marc Zaid]

I always describe that I am a national security attorney. I am an attorney for spies. Usually my malpractice insurance company doesn't understand what that means. So I am an employment lawyer. But I am one for spies.

[Dena Temple Reston]

For decades now, he's represented a huge array of government whistleblowers, both Republican and Democrat. But now he's seeing something he's never really seen before, a campaign of retribution and revenge that is targeting a lot of the people who have traditionally been his clients. The Trump administration has spent its first month in office pulling protective details on former high ranking officials and throwing members of the media out of offices in the Pentagon and the White House. And it turns out, singling out Mark Zaid.

[Marc Zaid]

I was at a wedding of a colleague when text messages and actually reporters had started calling but I wasn't paying attention because I was at the wedding. And then I got a text message from a colleague that said so something to the effect of so sorry to hear what happened. And I was like I what are you talking about? What happened? And he's like, you're in the New York Post. Trump took your clearance away.

[Dena Temple Reston]

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[Matt Galloway]

When was the last time you said, hmm, I never thought about it that way. The Current aims to give you that moment every single day. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and our award winning team brings you stories and conversations to expand your worldview. Sometimes they connect to the news of the day, sometimes to the issues of our time. And you'll hear all kinds of people on the Current, from bestselling authors to maybe your neighbor. Find us wherever you get your podcasts now, including YouTube. I'll talk to you soon.

[Dena Temple Reston]

I'm Dena Templewost, and this is Click Here's Mic Drop. For the past 32 years, Mark Zaid has been representing government employees who have been trying to hold both Republican and Democrat administrations to account. He needs security clearance for his work because of who he represents.

[Marc Zaid]

Many of my clients work within the cleared or classified environment. And so, for example, someone who is a covert case officer for the CIA, an American spy, their affiliation with the CIA is a secret. It is criminal for someone to reveal it or for them to tell someone without authorization. And if they get in trouble at work, they need legal representation. And I would be one of the few lawyers who would have the security clearance necessary to be able to know that they work at the CIA and possibly see the classified information that underlies their case that I would review at whatever agency might be involved.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Mark has done so much of this work that it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that he's become the go to lawyer for government whistleblowers. From people who questioned the Obama administration's response to the Benghazi attacks, to the former owner of Harrods, who filed suit against the NSA to get any communications records it might have intercepted from Princess.

[Marc Zaid]

Diana, have litigated more cases than anyone combined in history for First Amendment disputes against the U.S. government, including two former secretaries of defense, a national security advisor, and a lot of other people who just had great stories to tell about the work they did for the US Government.

[Dena Temple Reston]

But the thing that's probably put Mark Zaid in Trump's crosshairs has to do with Ukraine and a phone call. He represents the first whistleblower who flagged the now infamous 2019 Trump Zelensky call. Not the Vindman brothers who worked at the nsc, one of whom is now a congressman, but an unnamed whistleblower whose name has not been revealed. Though Mark's not quite sure why this in particular was singled out.

[Marc Zaid]

Frankly, the work I did during the Trump administration was like the work I do in every other administration. But then I handled with a colleague, the intelligence community whistleblower, whose complaint became public. It was filed in August of 2019, became public in September of 2019.

[Dena Temple Reston]

This is the Ukraine. Hey, let's make a deal, right?

[Marc Zaid]

The perfect call with President Zelensky of Ukraine.

[Dena Temple Reston]

At least that's how President Trump characterized the call. You take a look at that call, it was perfect. And you may remember that that call was the centerpiece of the first impeachment hearings against President Trump. So perhaps it shouldn't have come as a surprise to learn that the president, who has promised revenge, exacted some against Mark. When Mark heard that Trump had decided to pull his clearances.

[Marc Zaid]

I smirked and showed my fiance, hey, look what just happened, and wrote a nice public statement while still at the wedding reception. And, you know, I styled it as, you know, this is my red badge of courage for those who are fans of the Stephen Crane novel from 1895. And ended it with, yeah, what took you so long?

[Dena Temple Reston]

Wow. Allegedly, Mark's clearances were stripped at the same time as people like New York Attorney General Letitia James and Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney. They both brought business cases against Trump and, among other things, charged him with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to conceal hush money payments to a porn star. Mark's transgression, according to the New York Post story, was that he was an anti Trumper, which he says is just crazy talk.

[Marc Zaid]

I have never been either a Democrat or Republican. As Jerry Seinfeld says, there's nothing wrong with that. I have been a registered independent my entire adult life. I have gone out of my way to represent both right wing and left wing causes and clients. In fact, the only job offers I've ever had in the government have been from Republicans.

[Dena Temple Reston]

He says Trump said on the campaign trail that he would retaliate against those who did him wrong. And now Trump is making good on that promise.

[Marc Zaid]

Right. So even though we were of course told that the weaponization of the justice system and intelligence community shall not happen again, we've seen exactly the opposite. In fact, what we have seen is the mobilization of it to an extent we have never seen before, probably for the most part, in many of our lifetimes. The Trump administration in particular is really going out of their way to target anyone who it perceives to be an enemy, and at times is capturing people who, frankly had nothing to do with things. I mean, kind of think they're catching dolphins in the tuna net.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Though Mark says it's odd that Trump decided to retaliate against him now and not back in 2019 when the call with Ukraine first surfaced. After Trump's first impeachment trial ended with the Senate voting to acquit, Mark said he not only got to keep his clearances, but then was approved for expanded access.

[Marc Zaid]

I did have access the next year for a DHS whistleblower case, Department of Homeland Security, who was the highest ranking whistleblower likely in history, certainly in modern times. And the Trump administration increased my security clearance and access.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Ironically, a large part of Mark's classified work these days has to do with helping Trump political appointees put together all the information they need to get their own security clearances.

[Marc Zaid]

There are very senior people in this administration, Trump wise, who, who I am already representing and have been for years.

[Dena Temple Reston]

And you'd think the last thing Trump would want to stop Mark from doing is this other pet project of his representing the victims of the so called Havana Syndrome. Diplomatic personnel in Cuba have been complaining about chronic dizziness and headaches from what they believe is a new weapon used against them by some adversary of the United States. Biden administration officials wave that away as a theory, but Mark says it's very real and he's been bringing Havana Syndrome whistleblowers to the Hill to meet with Republican staff as they investigate a possible Biden administration cover up that will now.

[Marc Zaid]

Be interfered with if in fact my clearance has been revoked, which you would think the Trump administration would not want because I was trying to claim the Biden administration was covering up all the evidence.

[Dena Temple Reston]

If in fact they have been revoked. Do you know for certain that your clearance is gone or is the most you know what was said in the Post?

[Marc Zaid]

I have received no official notification from the US Government with respect to my clearance. The most I know is what was said in the New York Post.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Have you ever said that sentence before?

[Marc Zaid]

I have never said that sentence before. In a normal world, we are supposed to have procedural, if not substantive due process protections. You're not supposed to just be able to revoke or deny someone's clearance without their opportunity to defend it. So theoretically, I can go and challenge the fact that I was denied due.

[Dena Temple Reston]

Process, but he hasn't done that yet.

[Marc Zaid]

I am picking my fights and any effort to go against me or my client simply emboldens me to fight harder. And I will. And so up to you, President Trump.

[Dena Temple Reston]

From Recorded Future News, this has been Click here's mic Drop. It was written and produced by Sean Powers, Megan Dietree, Erica Gaeda and me, Dina Temple Reston. It was edited by Karen Duffin. We'll be back on Tuesday with an all new episode of Click Here. Have a great weekend.

[Sean Powers]

If you're looking for a daily guide to cybersecurity news and policy, sign up for the Cyber Daily from Recorded Future News. It serves up the day's most interesting and important cyber stories from our sister publication the Record and then aggregates all of the big cyber stories you might have missed from news outlets around the world. Just go to the Record Media and click on Cyber Daily to get all you need to know about the world of cybersecurity right in your inbox.