**Podcast Summary: "Click Here" — Ron Deibert: ‘We’re Living in a Philip K. Dick Novel’

Podcast Information:

• Title: Click Here
• Host/Author: Recorded Future News
• Description: The podcast that tells true stories about the people making and breaking our digital world. We take listeners into the world of cyber and intelligence without all the techie jargon. Every Tuesday and Friday, former NPR investigations correspondent Dina Temple-Raston and the team draw back the curtain on ransomware attacks, mysterious hackers, and the people who are trying to stop them.
• Episode: Ron Deibert: ‘We’re living in a Philip K. Dick novel.’
• Release Date: February 25, 2025

Introduction to Ron Deibert and His Upbringing

Dina Temple-Raston opens the episode by highlighting the multifaceted nature of the Internet and introduces Ron Deibert, a Canadian cybersecurity expert who leads the Citizen Lab. Dina paints Ron as a unique figure in the digital world, comparing him to Forrest Gump for his unexpected journey into cybersecurity.

Background:

• Upbringing: Ron grew up in a challenging environment in East Vancouver. He shares, "I grew up in a hardscrabble part of Vancouver. Most of the people that I hung out with ended up either in some kind of organized crime or in jail." (01:28)
• Early Influences: Despite limited access to higher education and only a Bible as his household book, Ron was an avid television watcher. The Watergate hearings left a lasting impression on him, exposing him to themes of power, corruption, and secrecy. He reflects, "What did the president know and when did he know it?" (02:19)

Academic Pursuits and the Birth of Citizen Lab

University and Shift in Focus:

• Ron excelled academically, immersing himself in philosophy and history. Initially focused on Soviet politics, he was present in East Berlin during the fall of the Berlin Wall—a pivotal moment that redirected his career path.
• A mentor advised Ron to pivot from Soviet studies to the emerging telecommunications revolution, sparking the idea of using technology to hold governments accountable: "Let's find out what's going on beneath the surface of the Internet that citizens need to know about." (08:35)

Establishing the Citizen Lab:

• While teaching at the University of Toronto, Ron clandestinely set up the Citizen Lab in a basement space, describing it as "their little hacker hothouse." (09:13)
• His first hire, Nart Villeneuve, was a self-taught hacker whose passion for computers led him to work unpaid: "He told me he couldn't actually believe that someone was paying him to do the work that he was doing which he would have gladly done for free." (09:30)

Early Successes and the Ghostnet Revelation

Initial Research:

• Ron and Nart focused on identifying how authoritarian regimes used the Internet for surveillance. Nart developed a method to access and monitor web content in China covertly: "Something that we do now routinely in the Citizen Lab. But it was the first time I had seen this presented." (10:18)

Discovery of Ghostnet:

• In 2008, Ron and his team investigated suspicious computer activity linked to Tibetan activists. Their on-site research in India led to the discovery of a massive cyber espionage network they named Ghostnet.
• They uncovered a spreadsheet detailing 1,300 compromised computers across 103 countries, including ministries, banks, and diplomatic missions: "We were looking over the shoulders of spies who were involved in a global cyber espionage campaign." (12:04)
• The revelation made headlines globally, marking Citizen Lab as a significant player in exposing cyber threats: "We were the biggest story in the world that day." (13:01)

Challenges and Backlash

Government Pushback:

• The exposure of such extensive espionage activities inevitably made enemies. Ron notes, "This is the same for any investigative journalist who antagonizes powerful people. There are going to be consequences." (14:12)
• The Canadian government, along with other nations implicated in Ghostnet, experienced diplomatic tensions: "What we were doing presented a risk... It had to do with the whole realm of cyber espionage as a whole and espionage generally, which all governments do." (15:39)

Unveiling Pegasus Spyware

Pegasus Discovery:

• In 2016, Citizen Lab identified Pegasus, a sophisticated spyware developed by the Israeli company NSO Group. Pegasus could infiltrate phones without user interaction, enabling complete surveillance by accessing microphones, cameras, and screen data: "It can turn on your microphone. Even when you're not using a phone caller, just record what you're doing in the room." (19:06)
• The team’s investigation led to the first comprehensive report on Pegasus, showcasing the tool's potential for abuse beyond its intended use against criminals and terrorists: "The million dollar dissident report was the first ever report on Pegasus." (19:30)

Impact and Recognition:

• The Citizen Lab's findings prompted significant governmental actions, including a federal blacklist by former President Joe Biden against the NSO Group: "An executive order being put out there by president Biden on commercial spyware. Phenomenal. This is like the holy grail." (20:16)

Current Challenges and Future Outlook

Ongoing Threats:

• Despite advancements in cybersecurity awareness and tools like Signal, Ron emphasizes the precarious state of digital freedom: "Honestly, it's like we're living in a Philip K. Dick novel." (04:33)
• He warns of increasing threats from powerful entities and the potential for more aggressive actions against organizations like Citizen Lab: "The very mission that we set up for ourselves to act as a counterintelligence for civil society... are now at the greatest risk." (20:45)

Global Implications:

• Ron expresses concern over the broader implications of cyber espionage, noting that exposing these activities empowers authoritarian regimes to emulate such surveillance tactics elsewhere: "It's going to open up the opportunity for oligarchs and dictators around the world to model themselves on that behavior." (21:33)
• He predicts a challenging future, stating, "We're in for a very dark period. So, you know, our mission now, it takes on a new meaning in this current environment. We've got a lot of work to do." (21:58)

Conclusion and Further Resources

Book Recommendation:

• Ron Deibert's new book, "Chasing Shadows", is highlighted as essential reading, offering an in-depth look at his journey and the Citizen Lab’s role as a digital watchdog. Margaret Atwood praises it as essential.

Final Thoughts:

• Dina Temple-Raston thanks Ron for his contributions and foresees more critical work ahead for Citizen Lab amidst escalating cyber threats.

Notable Quotes:

• "I witnessed bullying and intimidation firsthand growing up. I know what it's like. I don't like bullies. I especially don't like bullies getting away with things and hurting innocent people." — Ron Deibert (02:38)

• "I thought, governments are already doing things in the subterranean realm of telecommunications. There's no way that this is not going to happen around the Internet." — Ron Deibert (08:00)

• "Seriously, how truly free is the Internet?" — Ron Deibert (17:02)

• "It's going to open up the opportunity for oligarchs and dictators around the world to model themselves on that behavior." — Ron Deibert (21:33)

This episode of Click Here offers a compelling narrative of Ron Deibert's transformative journey from a challenging upbringing in Vancouver to becoming a leading figure in cybersecurity. It underscores the critical role of Citizen Lab in unveiling sophisticated cyber threats and the ongoing battle to preserve digital freedom in an increasingly surveilled world.