The firehose of falsehoods

Summary

Podcast Summary: Click Here – "The Firehose of Falsehoods"

Host: Dina Temple-Raston
Episode Date: May 8, 2026
Main Theme:
This episode explores the evolving landscape of modern propaganda, focusing on Russia’s increasingly sophisticated disinformation tactics. The discussion centers on how falsehoods are no longer just obvious lies but are now embedded within digital platforms, making it difficult to discern what’s real. The episode features “Antibot,” a researcher tracking Kremlin-linked information operations, and Ethan Zuckerman, an academic expert on digital information systems, who examine how propaganda not only spreads misinformation but also erodes public trust, shifts conversations, and destabilizes democracies.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Modern Propaganda’s Mechanics

• [00:02–01:25] Dina Temple-Raston introduces the episode by reflecting on the growing sophistication of online fake accounts and propaganda techniques.
• Bots now mimic real users convincingly—so much so that it's hard to distinguish them from actual people.

2. The Matryoshka Model: Nested Disinformation

• [04:41–05:32]
  • “Antibot” describes how bot networks create false legitimacy by referencing and quoting each other, forming layers like Russian nesting dolls (matryoshka).
  • Quote:

    “At some point, I realized they were literally nested into each other account. A quotes B, B quotes C, C quotes D.” — Antibot [05:17]

  • This coordinated effort gives the illusion of widespread, organic consensus.

3. Case Study: Hungary’s 2026 Parliamentary Elections

• [05:32–09:17]
  • Russian-affiliated bots spread videos in Hungary suggesting imminent violence, a novel tactic emphasizing chaos and threat rather than direct persuasion.
  • Quote:

    “Using violence as a central theme, that was new...Election related disinformation campaigns invent rumors about impending violence to get people's attention.” — Antibot [07:29]

  • These narratives were released proactively, not reactively—a shift from previous strategies.
  • The aim wasn’t only electoral influence but sowing distrust in future cycles.
  • Quote:

    “Goal seems to be to undermine trust in entire media and fact checking altogether, to turn it into kind of pick your side between competing takes and then the idea of shared truth just disappears.” — Antibot [09:17]

4. Why International Disinformation Efforts Matter

• [09:30–09:54]
  • Antibot reminds listeners that democratic backsliding anywhere affects democracies everywhere.
  • Quote:

    “Autocrats help each other survive and flourish. The fewer autocrats there are, the better the quality of life, even for citizens of leading democracies.” — Antibot [09:35]

5. Technical Tricks: Patterns Behind Fake Accounts

• [12:49–13:32]
  • Antibot identifies systematic patterns in account creation—like bots for different countries using names with specific starting letters—which makes coordinated campaigns harder for average users to spot.

6. The Firehose of Falsehood Tactic

• [13:32–14:17]
  • Russian campaigns blast multiple, sometimes contradictory narratives simultaneously, not persuading but overwhelming the public until truth becomes elusive.
  • Quote:

    “Putin is trying to drop a new digital iron curtain around Russia, and it is almost there.” — Antibot [14:11]

  • The aim: not only to block information, but to saturate the environment with so much noise that clarity vanishes.

7. The Threat to Watchdogs

• [14:32–14:44]
  • Antibot’s operation is endangered by lack of funding, highlighting that as tracking grows harder, guardrails are being dismantled.
  • Quote:

    “I've been funding this myself, and my personal savings are almost gone...If we can't find someone to sponsor our work...we'll have to end our operations...” — Antibot [14:32]

8. Deeper Impact: Confusion as the Goal

• [15:09–17:39] Interviews with Ethan Zuckerman
  • Zuckerman explains that the current situation is new not because propaganda exists—but because it now saturates every aspect of the digital public sphere.
  • Quote:

    “It's now that we are surrounded by it.” — Ethan Zuckerman [15:09]

  • The “firehose” approach produces despair and disbelief, leading people to place faith in power rather than fact.
  • Quote:

    “What a firehood of falsehood does is makes us despair at the possibility of knowing what is actually true.” — Ethan Zuckerman [15:46]

  • The more contradiction and repetition, the more likely people are to accept messaging, even if it's knowingly false.
  • Quote:

    “If you have to get up and every day and say stuff that you think is not true, it's easier over time to come to believe that it is true.” — Ethan Zuckerman [16:40]

  • The cumulative effect is systemic uncertainty, undermining news itself rather than targeting any one narrative.
  • Quote:

    “This is about introducing uncertainty and confusion to undermine not a particular story, but news more generally.” — Antibot [17:32]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Bots...are particularly good at creating fake social media accounts and then use them to post a ton of messages that look really human. Which makes them not just fast, but incredibly convincing.” — Dina Temple-Raston [04:46]
• “They weren't just trying to shape what people thought, but how the moment itself felt.” — Dina Temple-Raston [08:44]
• “Not by making you believe, but by making it harder to know what's true.” — Dina Temple-Raston [13:32]
• “When the goal isn't persuasion but confusion, you don't have to believe anything. You just have to make everything else hard to trust.” — Dina Temple-Raston [17:06]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Topic | Start Time | |---------|---------------------|------------| | Introduction & Overview | The evolution of online propaganda | 00:02 | | Guest: Antibot | How bots shape online conversations | 04:41 | | Matryoshka Campaign Explained | Nested disinformation tactics | 05:17 | | Hungary Election Case Study | Russian operations and disruption | 06:42 | | Systemic Distrust as Objective | Undermining trust in media | 09:17 | | Technical Patterns in Bots | Bot naming conventions | 13:20 | | The Firehose of Falsehood | Overwhelming with noise | 13:32 | | Funding Challenges | Difficulty of monitoring operations | 14:32 | | Interview: Ethan Zuckerman | The psychological impact of disinformation | 15:09 | | Despair and Belief | The cognitive shift from truth to power | 15:46 | | Final Reflections | Persistent uncertainty and breakdown of discourse | 17:06 |

---

Summary Takeaways

• Modern disinformation is now embedded, networked, and, above all, overwhelming—aimed less at persuasion and more at undermining the public’s very ability to trust any information.
• Russian operations are increasingly proactive, using violence and chaos as central themes and using technical tricks to give campaigns a veneer of legitimacy.
• The goal isn't to win immediate arguments or elections, but to slowly dissolve the possibility of commonly-agreed facts and shared reality.
• The fragility of truth-tracking efforts is highlighted by the precarious financial and personal security of those monitoring these campaigns.
• Without vigilant oversight and systemic awareness, democracies everywhere—not just those immediately targeted—are at risk.

---

Overall Tone:
The episode is investigative and urgent, blending clear, accessible explanations with a sense of real concern about the state of digital information. The speakers aim to demystify technical propaganda without jargon, and the personal peril faced by those tracking it underlines the seriousness of the issue.

Transcript

[Dina Temple Raston]

From recorded future news and prx, this is click here. For the longest time, most of us thought we could spot a fake account online. And for a while we were right. It was easy. A name that doesn't quite make sense, a photo that feels off. But that's the old version of this story, because now you can't always tell. The accounts look real, they sound real, they argue like real people, and they don't just show up in your replies. It's starting to feel like they're shaping the conversation around you. From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here, a show about how people are making and breaking our digital world. I'm Dina Temple Raston, and this week we're looking at the new mechanics of propaganda. Not the loud, obvious stuff, but the embedded kind lurking in the same spaces where we argue, scroll, and decide what's true. And we talked to someone who tracks these campaigns in real time, and he calls them out for the rest of us.

[Antibot]

Russian campaigns typically spread pro Kremlin narratives by mimicking real news. But then when we took a closer look, there were things about this campaign that we'd never seen before.

[Dina Temple Raston]

We'll be right back. Support for Click Here comes from CleanMyMac. CleanMyMac helps you clear space, reduce background strain, and maintain steady performance without constant interruptions. It's not about cleaning files or fixing machines. It's about removing the friction that breaks momentum. CleanMyMac is the quiet presence that keeps creativity uninterrupted, so that when you're finishing up a pitch deck at midnight or exporting a huge project, you can trust your Mac to keep up. Personally speaking, when I'm working late on deadline for Click Here, the spinning wheel of death is the last thing I need. Get tidy today. Try 7 Days Free and use the code CLICKHERE for 20% off. Support for Click Here comes from Quince. Lately, I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day, leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable, but still put together. It just makes getting dressed less of a chore. And for a while now, Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra soft denim. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at $30 and are effortless, breathable, and easy to wear on Repeat. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. I just got a Quince bathing suit that looks like one of those expensive European brands, but for a fraction of the price. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com clickhere for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com clickhere for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com clickhere. You're listening to Click Here. I'm Dina Temple Rast. Welcome back. Modern propaganda doesn't work quite the way it used to. It's not just trying to convince you of one thing. It's trying to make everything else harder to trust. And to understand how that works, we went to an expert, someone who goes by the name Antibot for Navalny. And he leads a group of researchers who map Kremlin linked information operations online. Some of them live inside Russia. So for security reasons, he sent answers to our questions over an encrypted app, and we had someone voice them. His specialty is bots.

[Antibot]

We extract the meaning behind bot networks and interpret the activity.

[Dina Temple Raston]

Bots, short for robot, can run the same tasks over and over really quickly. And they're particularly good at creating fake social media accounts and then use them to post a ton of messages that look really human. Which makes them not just fast, but incredibly convincing. Convincing enough that a handful of voices can start to feel like, well, a crowd. And when a crowd starts to feel real, it can start to shape what feels true. Antibot figured out how they did it.

[Antibot]

At some point, I realized they were literally nested into each other account. A quotes B, B quotes C, C

[Dina Temple Raston]

quotes D. Like a chain or maybe a set of Russian nesting dolls. Every time you open one, there's another, smaller one inside. Not random, but built with intention. Anti Bots started calling this kind of campaign matryoshka, the Russian word for nesting dolls. So what does that look like when those manufactured messages start to feel like actual news? That was on full display in Hungary in April, when voters went to the polls in parliamentary elections that would decide whether Viktor Orban stayed in power. This is Orban on the campaign trail. In the weeks leading up to the vote, something strange started to appear online. There were these videos, dozens of them, all pushing the same ominous message that violence was coming. They hinted at an assassination plot and cast Orban not just as a defender of stability, but as a man under threat because he'd stood in the way of European Union efforts to send money and weapons to Ukraine. Antibalt was watching all this unfold with a skeptical eye.

[Antibot]

On March 13, we detected two of the earliest videos they put out there. And at first, this disinformation campaign looked like stuff we'd seen before. Almost routine Russian campaigns typically spread pro Kremlin narratives by mimicking real news, which

[Dina Temple Raston]

is exactly what Anti Bot thought these videos in Hungary were.

[Antibot]

But then, when we took a closer look, there were things about this Orban campaign that we'd never seen before. We immediately thought it looked like a joint effort between an information ops group we call Matryoshka and the Kremlin's foreign intelligence arm.

[Dina Temple Raston]

In the past, the group Matryoshka seemed to operate more independently. And the story these videos were pushing about violence brewing, that was also out of character.

[Antibot]

Using violence as a central theme, that was new we've never seen. Election related disinformation campaigns invent rumors about impending violence to get people's attention. And what that told us was that Kremlin was pulling out all the stops to ensure Orban was reelected. It was important to them.

[Dina Temple Raston]

So this wasn't just another disinformation campaign. Something had shifted. Typically, these disinformation networks are reactive. They wait for something to happen, and then they twist it, amplify it, and then push it out further. But this time, they didn't wait.

[Antibot]

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time I've seen Matryoshka move out ahead of the news, introducing a narrative like this instead of waiting to exploit one that already exists.

[Dina Temple Raston]

And then the whole thing escalated. These narratives changed shape again, from fringe videos online to something dressed up to look official, more authoritative, even bland. Videos like this.

[Unnamed Ukrainian Official (voice actor)]

Deputy head of the Office of the President of Ukraine commented on the upcoming parliamentary elections in Hungary. In an interview with Le Monde, he said that Viktor Orban has a clear advantage. But that doesn't mean all of this

[Dina Temple Raston]

was landing just as Hungarian voters were making up their minds. So the campaign wasn't just trying to shape what people thought, but how the moment itself felt. Orban didn't win the election, so you could argue that the Russian efforts were for naught. But that misses the point, because these campaigns aren't always about winning outright. Sometimes they're about shaping the terrain, lowering trust, raising tension, not just about this vote, but about the next one, the long term.

[Antibot]

Goal seems to be to undermine trust in entire media and fact checking altogether, to turn it into kind of pick your side between competing takes and then the idea of shared truth just disappears.

[Dina Temple Raston]

And if Hungary feels too far away, that's part of the problem.

[Antibot]

I know that for us audience, elections in Hungary can sound distant, almost irrelevant, like Albania and Whack the Dog, the movie. But they should care because autocrats help each other survive and flourish. The fewer autocrats there are, the better the quality of life, even for citizens of leading democracies.

[Dina Temple Raston]

In other words, this doesn't just stay contained. So we can't just look at the result. We have to look at the system that produced it. And the impact of that system could have ripple effects far beyond autocracies. We'll take a look at that when we come back. Stay with us. Support for Click here comes from NPR's Upfirst podcast. NPR understands your curiosity is boundless, but your time isn't. And that's what's so great about Up First. Everything you need to know to start your day in about 10 minutes. But there's another part of Upfirst you may not know about. They're awesome at the deep dive. They recently focused on school choice and a city in Iowa closing elementary schools and a billionaire backed charter school with a playground in the cafeteria. And it gave me a new way at looking at the whole issue. Recent episodes looked at what the Iran war means for the US Economy and why Attorney General Pam Bondi's exit is a bigger deal than it first appears. All of this every morning in under 15 minutes. Up first does something most daily news shows don't. It asks better questions to get better answers. Not just about what happened, but how it came about, why it's important, what's to come. Which, if you think about it, is the difference between just knowing the news and understanding it. Follow NPR's Up first podcast so you can understand what matters and what happens next. It's hard news through a human lens.

[Wise Sponsor Voice]

Support comes from Wise the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send your money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way. Wise you can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. Ts and Cs apply.

[Mike Pesca]

Hi, I'm Mike Pesca, host of the Gist, the longest running podcast on news and analysis in the business. Every day I do, I think, a fascinating interview. But I also do a spiel where I will challenge you because I hate listening to podcasts that just agree with each other and only agree with me. So I'm going to say 25% of the time you'll say, mike, I think you're wrong. And 75% of the time you'll say, great point. Well said. Now those numbers might be reversed for some people. They probably shouldn't listen. Check out the Gist every single day for a decade now.

[Dina Temple Raston]

While Orban didn't win the election in Hungary, the disinformation campaign behind him did its job. It lowered trust among voters, it raised tensions, and it injected doubt into the system itself. And it used a blueprint that antibot said he's seen play out all over Europe. There were fake websites designed to look like legitimate news outlets, with articles that at first glance looked fine but fell apart if you looked more closely. The URLs were just slightly off.

[Antibot]

We started noticing patterns in how these accounts were built. The names follow the Alphabet. So all the US associated bots started with D names. French ones used names that begin with a J. German name started with an

[Dina Temple Raston]

R. Patterns the average person would never notice. So these pro Kremlin planted stories would be picked up, amplified by networks of accounts, and then pushed across platforms until they started to trend. Researchers sometimes call this the firehose of falsehood. Not one message, but many, sometimes even contradictory messages hitting all at once. So instead of persuading you, they overwhelm you. Not by making you believe, but by making it harder to know what's true. An Antibot says in Russia, that confusion isn't just a byproduct, it's the point.

[Antibot]

Putin is trying to drop a new digital iron curtain around Russia, and it is almost there.

[Dina Temple Raston]

Not just by shutting information out, but by filling the system with so much noise that clarity disappears. And here's the part that should give you pause. The people who track this kind of thing may not be able to keep doing it.

[Antibot]

I've been funding this myself, and my personal savings are almost gone. If we can't find someone to sponsor our work, provide some funds, we'll have to end our operations in the next couple of months.

[Dina Temple Raston]

At the very moment these campaigns are getting more sophisticated, the people watching them are running out of Runway. And with fewer eyes on it, there's more room to experiment, more room to escalate. And the worry isn't Just that this propaganda exists, it always has. But something about this moment feels different.

[Ethan Zuckerman]

Propaganda has always been with us. It's not that we've ever been without propaganda. It's now that we are surrounded by it.

[Dina Temple Raston]

Ethan Zuckerman is the founder and director of the Initiative for Digital Public Infrastructure. It's at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. He studies how information moves online and what happens when that system starts to break down. So when you hear a phrase like fire hose of falsehood when it comes to information operations, what do you think it actually does to a person who's trying to make sense of the world?

[Ethan Zuckerman]

I think in many cases what a firehood of falsehood does is makes us despair at the possibility of knowing what is actually true. And then once we know that nothing can actually be known, we pay more attention to power than we do to truth.

[Dina Temple Raston]

Because if you can't tell what's true, the question starts to change from what's real to who should I believe?

[Ethan Zuckerman]

The idea is simply to tell people. It's too much work to figure out what's really true. Reality is being controlled by super powerful people and you have no possible way of navigating the world that they've created for you. So just give up.

[Dina Temple Raston]

Even if you know that the propaganda isn't true, if you have to keep repeating that, well, it does something to a person, even an informed person.

[Ethan Zuckerman]

Human beings are really bad at cognitive dissonance. If you have to get up and every day and say stuff that you think is not true, it's easier over time to come to believe that it is true. So I think there's a way in which repeating the words over and over has a way of making them true in your mind.

[Dina Temple Raston]

And that's the part that lingers. Not whether you believe it at first, but what happens when you have to live with it. A kind of one, two punch. First make the truth feel unreachable and then make belief easier to impose. Because when the goal isn't persuasion but confusion, you don't have to believe anything. You just have to make everything else hard to trust. Antibot put it this.

[Antibot]

This is about introducing uncertainty and confusion to undermine not a particular story, but news more generally.

[Dina Temple Raston]

And once that happens, the conversation itself starts to break down. Something more noise. And when there's enough of that, it gets harder to hear anything very clearly. This is Click Here. Click Here is a production of recorded Future News and prx. Today's show was written and produced by Megan Dietre, Sean Powers, Erica Gajda, Zach Hirsch and Casey Georgie. It was edited by Karen Duffin and Sarah Cavedo and Fact Checked by Darren Ancrum. Original music is by Ben Levingston, with additional music from Blue Dot Sessions. Our staff writer is Lucas Riley, our illustrator is Megan Gough, and our sound designers and engineers are Jake Cook and Jesse Niswonger. Find us on X or Facebook at Click Here. Show or leave us a voice message at 661-5ch. Talk sometimes we'll turn those moments into reporting, sometimes into a conversation, and sometimes into a future story you'll hear on this show. I'm Dina Temple Rastin, and thanks for listening.

[Wise Sponsor Voice]

Support for this program comes from Recorded Future in cybersecurity, the biggest risk isn't what can be seen in it's what gets missed. Recorded Future analyzes billions of signals to help organizations stay ahead of threats. Recorded Future Know what matters? Act first.

[Recorded Future News Announcer]

Looking for more of the cybersecurity and intelligence coverage you get on Click Here, Then check out our sister publication the Record from Recorded Future News. You'll get breaking cyber news from reporters in New York, Washington, London and Kyiv, among others. And you'll see for yourself why it attracts hundreds of thousands of page views every month. Just go to the Record Media.