Nora Al Jazawi (6:16)

Yeah, absolutely. I believe, like it's my fate. It was my fate since the very first moment of my life.

Dina Temple Raston (6:24)

Nora grew up in Syria in the 1990s, a time when Syrian leader Bashar al Assad had absolute unchallenged power, something that showed up not just in big, unmistakable ways, but in smaller ones too. Nora remembers watching fathers in her neighborhood Disappear. And they wouldn't just be gone, they'd be sort of erased.

Nora Al Jazawi (6:46)

People were so afraid about talking and telling even the children about what happened to their fathers when they disappeared.

Dina Temple Raston (6:55)

And the few who returned, we called

Nora Al Jazawi (6:57)

them back from the dead.

Dina Temple Raston (7:00)

So when she was preparing to go to university, she told her father she wanted to be a lawyer.

Nora Al Jazawi (7:05)

My dad looked at me, he said, how do you want to be a lawyer in a country where there's no rule of law? You will end up doing nothing.

Dina Temple Raston (7:15)

She was crushed.

Nora Al Jazawi (7:17)

The reality that we are. We can't have a dream because there is this authoritarian regime.

Dina Temple Raston (7:24)

A friend eventually chose her university major for her. Arabic literature. Not a calling exactly, but a compromise. And unexpectedly it became a lens. Universities were closely monitored by the regime, but the literature carried something harder to

Nora Al Jazawi (7:43)

police memory dissent in the history of the Arab world. We had definitely a lot of authoritarianism. So I focus a lot on studying the literature that has been written under the authoritarianism. And yeah, it's incredible.

Dina Temple Raston (8:02)

Her growing curiosity about power, fear, oppression, eventually pushed her online carefully, because even before she understood surveillance, she felt it.

Nora Al Jazawi (8:14)

We grew up having this, like you can feel like it's a collective fear that we are being watched all the time. We even like grew up listening and being told by our parents that wolves have ears. So when we start learning how to go online and start searching, we had this inside us. There was a voice in my head telling me that the regime is watching.

Dina Temple Raston (8:49)

She learned how to use VPNs and other ways to stay safe online. And once logged in, she carefully made her way to human rights reports and independent blogs.

Nora Al Jazawi (9:00)

I would go online, find the article, and then print it at home in my place and then take it secretly in a book to the university and then sit in the corner, like dealing with something illegal. We were dealing with these thoughts and ideas about democracy.

Dina Temple Raston (9:20)

She began meeting like minded students and then started writing a blog under a pseudonym. So how long did you get to do this before you got into trouble?

Nora Al Jazawi (9:31)

Yeah, around two years.

Dina Temple Raston (9:34)

She was in class one day, probably taking notes as usual, when officers burst in.

Nora Al Jazawi (9:40)

We were in lecture and I was taken. And yeah, everyone was watching.

Dina Temple Raston (9:48)

It didn't need explaining. They'd all seen this before.

Nora Al Jazawi (9:52)

Security forces dressing up like anyone else without any court warrant, just showing up, kidnapping in person.

Dina Temple Raston (10:02)

The second time they came for her, she was on a bus. This time there was no confusion about what it meant. So she steeled herself.

Nora Al Jazawi (10:10)

The moment I was arrested, I stopped thinking about myself. All what I've been thinking is how to protect people outside, how to prevent them from reaching and arresting the others.

Dina Temple Raston (10:31)

For seven months, she was held in custody. They interrogated her, they tortured her, but she didn't give them any names. And eventually she was released. But the pressure didn't stop. Soon after, authorities detained her sister.

Nora Al Jazawi (10:47)

She was tortured a lot because of me and in addition to her activism. But yeah, when she was released, she really needed like medical care and so on.

Dina Temple Raston (11:02)

That was when Nora decided they had to leave, not just for her own safety, but for her sister's. So she took her and fled, first to Turkey and then eventually to Canada, hoping that distance might finally be enough to make the regime stop. Do you feel safe?

Nora Al Jazawi (11:21)

No, not at all. I don't believe that regime stopped chasing me. Ever. Even when I was in Turkey. Between the moment I crossed the borders to Turkey and the moment I flew flew to Canada, I believe that there was no single moment that the regime left me alone.

Dina Temple Raston (11:47)

Nora was right to be worried. That's after the break. Stay with us. Support for Click Here comes from Factor this time of year always feels like the hardest time to stay consistent with cooking. There's so much going on and honestly, who wants to run out into the cold just to grab some groceries? Thankfully, Factor makes healthy eating easy with fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs. With Factor, you get quality meals with hearty ingredients including lean proteins, colorful veggies and healthy fats. They're meant to fit your goals and they're ready to eat in about two minutes. No prep, no stress and it never gets boring. They have a hundred rotating weekly options, so there's always something new and delicious to look forward to. Personally, I love their black pepper and Sage pork chop and the Thai style Peanut Chicken grain bowl is perfect for lunch. It keeps you full all day in a good way. Head to FactorMeals.com clickhere50OFF and use the code clickhere50OFF to get 50% off your first Factor box plus free breakfast for one year. You'd like a pro this month with Factor. New subscribers only varies by plan. One free breakfast item per box for one year. While subscription is active. Support for Click Here comes from Monarch. Tax season is one of the only times people see their full financial picture. Earnings, spending, savings, maybe even an extra account you forgot about. Monarch is a huge help for anyone this time of year. You can see where money is going and where a tax refund might have the biggest impact. Instead of tracking expenses and feeling bad about spending, you can plan ahead and hit milestones, simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code clickhere. And unlike other personal finance apps, Monarch is built to make you proactive, not just reactive. Its AI tools will help you understand your spending with insights and weekly recaps. That way, you'll make informed decisions with your money. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch. The all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code clickhere@monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off@monarch.com code click here.

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Dina Temple Raston (15:11)

It is called Internet. I use the world Wide web information superhighway.

Ron Deibert (15:17)

Cybersecurity. Why do things go viral? Click here.

Dina Temple Raston (15:27)

Nora kept speaking out in Canada and the regime responded first in the old fashioned way. Intelligence agents visited the family she'd left behind in Syria. They even questioned her grandmother.

Nora Al Jazawi (15:39)

Yeah, my, my grandmother, she used to receive a lot of these visits from the security guards telling her like, yeah, you should talk to your, to Noura and tell her to stay silent. And she was, she was so strong. She kept telling them, you, you push her away off the borders. I can't have my lovely granddaughter anymore. So you go and tell her I will never tell her anything. Yeah.

Dina Temple Raston (16:13)

Then years later, she received an email from a group called Assad Crimes. It looked plausible, but she paused.

Nora Al Jazawi (16:23)

I didn't open the attachment, but instead I told my husband. Then he took a look.

Dina Temple Raston (16:32)

Her husband, a cyber security expert, brought it to the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. They study the intersection of technology, human rights and security. And researchers there confirmed Nora's suspicion.

Nora Al Jazawi (16:46)

So the attachment, it seems like something badly designed social engineering attempt to pursue me to open it.

Dina Temple Raston (16:58)

As they examined the email, they found little digital fingerprints that led right to an Assad ally. And she learned that this was part of a broader campaign targeting lots of Syrians who had already fled.

Nora Al Jazawi (17:11)

And it would be a massive phishing campaign targeting a lot of people.

Dina Temple Raston (17:19)

She had been detained multiple times, tortured even. But this felt different.

Nora Al Jazawi (17:25)

Yeah, I remember Even I remember when I was in detention and under torture, in the interrogation, I was able to make control on the information I would share with them. But when it comes to the digital, transnational digital oppression and having spy in your pocket, taking this spy everywhere, even to your bed, to your very personal meetings, it's like something you can't have control over it.

Dina Temple Raston (18:04)

Nour is not the only dissident who's been chased across borders. In 2018, the world watched in horror as this happened.

Nora Al Jazawi (18:13)

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman personally approved the murder of the exiled journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Dina Temple Raston (18:19)

It was at the Saudi Consulate in

Recorded Future Announcer (18:21)

Istanbul that Jamal Khashoggi met his brutal end.

Dina Temple Raston (18:24)

Spyware was used to monitor those in his inner circle before and even after his death. What ended as a brutal murder started in part with a phone hack. Someone broke into his friend's phone.

Ron Deibert (18:38)

They had been communicating privately over many, many weeks and months over what they thought was an encrypted messaging application, WhatsApp. But the whole time, Saudi operatives had been monitoring from afar.

Dina Temple Raston (18:51)

That's Ron Deibert. He runs the Citizen Lab. The phone hack of Khashoggi's friend exposed their conversations, including plans Khashoggi had to support dissidents against the regime. Weeks later, Khashoggi was killed with Omar.

Ron Deibert (19:07)

Clearly, he experienced horrible trauma just knowing that his hack device may have contributed to the murder of his good friend. It just left him, unfortunately damaged, and he grapples with it to this day.

Dina Temple Raston (19:26)

What's most unsettling is how little it took. With the right software, Saudi authorities didn't need agents on the ground. They could just monitor a Khashoggi associate living in Canada from thousands of miles away.

Ron Deibert (19:39)

They would have. Would have had to get inside his apartment, put bugs in his space. And even then, the information wouldn't be that useful because he'd have to be talking about something right next to the bug. But now, with a push of a button, they can get inside his head. Right. This is remarkable in terms of the capacity that's been unleashed here.

Dina Temple Raston (20:02)

This is what the Citizen Lab calls despotism. As a service states buying surveillance the way others buy the latest software or tech gadget. You don't need to break in anymore. You just log in.

Ron Deibert (20:15)

And to me, this is perhaps the greatest threat to liberal democracy right now. When you. When you stand back and you look at the factors leading to all of this.

Dina Temple Raston (20:30)

Last March, Nora returned to Syria.

Nora Al Jazawi (20:33)

So this is Nuna's first flight.

Dina Temple Raston (20:36)

This is a video Nora shot from the flight with her two Kids flying from Canada back to Syria months after the fall of the Assad regime.

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I find that

Dina Temple Raston (20:49)

at the airport, the moment she'd imagined for years finally arrived and then slowed down as she crossed back into Syria and returned back home. An official took her passport. Another leafed through, disappeared behind a counter. Minutes passed, then more, and she stood there, children beside her, watching uniforms move back and forth.

Nora Al Jazawi (21:12)

After spending like around half an hour just checking all the arrest warrants against me, and say, like, what did you do to him? Like, why have they really wanted you badly? And then when, like, they smiled and they stamped the passport, saying, like, welcome to welcome home. Like, it was awesome.

Dina Temple Raston (21:37)

She exited the terminal and stepped back onto familiar ground. But something had shifted. The way she held herself had changed. The tension she learned to live with in Syria had disappeared.

Nora Al Jazawi (21:51)

And then, like, feeling that I can walk without fear. I can pass by the same, the very same detention center where I was held in torture, but feeling that it's not the same.

Dina Temple Raston (22:08)

And though she finally feels safer, she doesn't feel finished with her work.

Nora Al Jazawi (22:14)

I'm still trying to work with civil society, with journalists, with people on the ground, on digital rights. I'm trying to connect with few MPs, to reflect on how we need really to focus on the digital space. There is a huge opportunity that we can build from this clutch because everything is destroyed.

Dina Temple Raston (22:39)

What she's describing isn't closure, it's continuation. She has lots of ideas for cyber diplomacy, new policies, ways to hold people to account. And she has a lot more hope. But even still, she remembers.

Nora Al Jazawi (22:55)

I feel like all of the mixed feelings. You are happy, but you are worried. You are just crying. You are reflecting on all of these years of trauma.

Dina Temple Raston (23:04)

You are just remembering, remembering friends who vanished, friends who never came home, including Jamal Khashoggi, who was a friend of Nora's.

Nora Al Jazawi (23:14)

People who are fleeing the authoritarian regimes. Once they arrive in liberal democracies, there's this assumption that they would be safe. But the reality is that it's not enough to be in liberal democratic country and say that, yeah, these people are now safe, they can build their life again and so on. Because these authoritarian regimes are not leaving them alone. And not only like violating their privacies, but also it could be exceed to reach the tragic moment of the assassination of Jamal. And I knew Jamal. And I believe, like, he, if he can send us a message now, he would say, like, make sure that I will be the last one.

Dina Temple Raston (24:17)

That's the hope that there's never another Jamal Khashoggi. And that people like Nora who, who speak out, who try to tell the truth, who risk everything to do so, don't have to pay the price for the rest of their lives. This is click here. Click Here is a production of Recorded Future News and prx. Today's show was written and produced by Megan Dietrich, Sean Powers, Erica Gaeda, Zach Hirsch and Casey Giorgi. It was edited by Karen Duffin and Sarah Covedo and Fact Checked by Darren Ancrum. Original music is by Ben Levingston, with additional music from Blue Dot Sessions. Our staff writer is Lucas Riley, our illustrator is Megan Gough, and our sound designers and engineers are Jake Cook and Jesse Niswonger. I'm Dina Temple Raston, and thanks for listening.

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