The space debris strikes back

Summary

Podcast Summary: Click Here – "The Space Debris Strikes Back"

Released: July 1, 2025

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "The Space Debris Strikes Back," Click Here delves into the increasingly perilous environment orbiting Earth. Hosted by Dina Temple-Raston and featuring insights from former NASA astronaut Ed Liu, the episode explores the mounting threats posed by space debris and the sinister possibilities of cyber-attacks on satellites. Through expert interviews and real-world examples, the podcast paints a comprehensive picture of space as a contested and hazardous frontier.

The Growing Problem of Space Debris

The conversation begins with a stark revelation from Ed Liu, a former NASA astronaut, about the pervasive dangers of space debris. “[A small paint fleck] can rip through a satellite like a shotgun blast,” Liu explains at [00:58]. This seemingly insignificant fragment, traveling at speeds up to 17,000 miles per hour, poses an existential threat to spacecraft and satellites alike.

Currently, there are approximately 10,000 active satellites orbiting Earth in low Earth orbit (LEO), accompanied by millions of debris pieces ranging from spent rocket stages to tiny paint flecks. Liu emphasizes the escalating risk of collisions: “If there's one crash, say one satellite bumps another, then everything is sort of a ripple effect,” he notes at [04:00]. Such incidents could trigger a cascade of debris-generating collisions, severely disrupting satellite operations.

Real-World Incidents

The podcast recounts a startling incident involving Jordan Hobbs, a cattle farmer in the Australian outback, whose property became the unexpected landing site for space debris. At [04:30], Hobbs describes finding what appeared to be “a hoverboard from space,” initially mistaking the fragment for something extraterrestrial. Liu adds humorously, “So he took it, he put it in a suitcase and it's sitting in his barn,” highlighting the sporadic yet impactful nature of debris falls.

Typically, debris re-enters Earth's atmosphere over the oceans, but incidents like Hobbs' illustrate the tangible risks posed to land-based locations. This underscores the broader implications of unchecked space debris, extending beyond space agencies to everyday life on Earth.

The Cyber Threat to Satellites

Transitioning from physical hazards to digital vulnerabilities, the episode underscores the growing concern over satellite hacking. Liu details a high-profile cyber-attack that occurred during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, where adversaries targeted ViaSat's Ka satellite network. This breach severed communications for tens of thousands across Europe, demonstrating the potential for cyber operations to disrupt critical infrastructure ([06:13]).

The attribution of this attack to Russia’s GRU military intelligence agency reflects the geopolitical tensions extending into space. Liu states unequivocally at [09:23], “I think they think the likelihood is 100%,” referring to the inevitability of intentional satellite hacking.

The Kessler Syndrome: Theoretical Risks

Jen White introduces the concept of the Kessler Syndrome, a theoretical scenario proposed in the 1970s by NASA scientist Donald Kessler. “[It's] a cosmic pileup,” Liu explains at [07:36], where satellites and debris collide in a domino effect, exponentially increasing the density of space junk. Kessler himself warns at [21:34], “Space is increasingly a contested environment, and it's actually a war fighting domain,” highlighting the militarization of space.

Likelihood and Readiness for Satellite Hacking

Experts concur on the high likelihood of satellite hacking attempts, with Liu asserting at [09:23] that the probability is virtually certain. The episode explores current defenses, emphasizing the need for robust ground-based security measures to protect communication links with satellites. Liu points out that many existing satellites were not designed with cybersecurity in mind, making them vulnerable to modern hacking techniques.

At [10:57], Liu references a Chinese cyber-attack that temporarily hijacked a GPS satellite for ten seconds, illustrating both the capability and the minimal evidentiary footprint such attacks leave, complicating attribution and response efforts.

Historical Context and Ongoing Threats

The podcast reflects on historical incidents, including the hacking of two U.S. government satellites in 2007, attributed to Chinese actors. Gregory Falco, an aerospace engineering professor, discusses how these breaches exposed critical vulnerabilities and spurred significant concern within the intelligence community. The lingering threat from state actors like China and Russia underscores the persistent nature of space-based cyber threats.

Mitigation Efforts

Addressing the escalating crisis, Ed Liu highlights his role in founding LeoLabs, a company dedicated to tracking space objects to prevent collisions. “What we do is we help satellite operators prevent collisions with other objects because we tell them where everything is,” Liu explains at [19:02]. LeoLabs uses advanced radar systems to monitor and predict potential debris collisions up to seven days in advance, providing vital lead time for satellite maneuvers.

International best practices also advocate for the creation of "graveyard orbits" where defunct satellites are relocated to minimize collision risks. Nancy Gallagher, a research professor at the University of Maryland, elaborates on these efforts, noting the challenges in coordinating such measures globally and the technological hurdles in actively removing debris ([40:18]).

The Role of Cybersecurity

Drawing parallels between space and cyberspace, the episode emphasizes the necessity of treating space threats with the same rigor as cyber threats. Bob Gourley from the Defense Intelligence Agency states at [23:05], “I believe we need to treat space junk as a cyber threat,” highlighting the intertwining nature of physical and digital security in space operations. Lucas Riley echoes this sentiment, underscoring the ease with which outdated satellite systems can be compromised using rudimentary hacking tools ([24:24]).

The Outer Space Treaty and Militarization

The discussion turns to international law, particularly the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, which mandates the peaceful use of space. Nancy Gallagher explains at [38:49] that while the treaty prohibits the placement of weapons in space or territorial claims, it permits military activities such as reconnaissance and early warning systems. However, the increasing militarization of space by nations like the U.S., Russia, and China raises concerns about potential breaches of these agreements and the escalation of space-based conflicts.

Conclusion

"The Space Debris Strikes Back" serves as a stark reminder of the fragile balance maintaining modern satellite operations. With space becoming a congested and contested domain, the combined threats of physical debris and sophisticated cyber-attacks pose significant risks to global communications, military operations, and everyday technologies reliant on satellite data. As Ed Liu poignantly reflects at [28:22], “The majority of the population in, you know, mid-1990s did not realize the significance of the growth of the Internet. Same thing's happening in space. Right now.”

The episode concludes by urging proactive measures, international cooperation, and advanced monitoring systems to safeguard the final frontier. As space continues to evolve from a realm of exploration to a strategic and volatile battleground, the imperative to address these multifaceted threats has never been more critical.

Notable Quotes

• Ed Liu [00:58]: “A tiny paint fleck could rip through a satellite like a shotgun blast.”

• Ed Liu [04:00]: “If there's one crash, say one satellite bumps another, then everything is sort of a ripple effect.”

• Ed Liu [09:23]: “I think they think the likelihood is 100%.”

• Donald Kessler [21:34]: “Space is increasingly a contested environment, and it's actually a war fighting domain.”

• Bob Gourley [23:05]: “I believe we need to treat space junk as a cyber threat.”

• Ed Liu [28:22]: “The majority of the population in, you know, mid-1990s did not realize the significance of the growth of the Internet. Same thing's happening in space. Right now.”

Key Takeaways

1. Space Debris is a Critical Threat: The sheer volume and velocity of space debris present severe risks to active satellites and space infrastructure, with potential cascading collisions that could cripple space operations globally.

2. Cybersecurity in Space is Imperative: As satellites increasingly become integral to modern life, securing them against cyber-attacks is paramount. The difficulty in attributing such attacks makes them a favored tool for geopolitical adversaries.

3. International Cooperation is Essential: Mitigating space debris and securing space assets require coordinated global efforts, including adherence to best practices and international treaties.

4. Proactive Monitoring and Defense: Advanced tracking systems like those developed by LeoLabs are crucial for predicting and preventing debris collisions, while ongoing research into debris removal technologies remains vital.

5. Evolving Nature of Space Warfare: The militarization of space transforms it into a strategic domain where cyber and physical threats intersect, necessitating innovative defense strategies and robust cybersecurity protocols.

Further Listening

For more in-depth analysis and additional perspectives on the intersection of space and cybersecurity, tune in to Click Here episodes and follow the ongoing conversations with experts in the field.

Transcript

[Dena Temple Rastin]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here. Hey, it's Dena. For the month of July, the Click Here team is doing what we usually do when the heat rolls in and Congress leaves town. We hunker down, dig deep, and start building something new. And while we're in the trenches reporting those stories, we thought we'd take a little detour. All month long, we'll be sharing some of our favorite past episodes along with a few gems from other podcasts we think you'll really like. Think of it as a curated feed minus the algorithms. And to kick things off, we're returning to something a little different. Earlier this year, we teamed up with one A, that's NPR and WAMU's Daily News magazine for a five week series we called Cyber Mondays. Every Monday, I joined Jen White in the studio to unpack some of our biggest Click Here stories with real time listener calls, plenty of smart questions, and a little more chaos than we usually allow in our regular edits. And in this episode, we looked up, way up, from the minefield of space junk orbiting above us to the solar storms that could fry GPS systems and power grids, to the nations quietly preparing for a different kind of war, one that starts in the stars. If you missed it on the radio, here's your second chance. What follows is a condensed version of that live show and the first voice you'll hear. JEN White, host of 1A Take a Listen.

[Jen White]

This is 1A. I'm Jen White. Satellites. They're key to modern life. When you look up directions or check the weather forecast for the weekend or maybe even get lost on a long hike and need to check your location, you rely on satellites in space. We're launching more satellites all the time. As more and more go up, space gets crowded. There are about 10,000 active satellites circling us in low earth orbit right now. Alongside them, millions of pieces of space debris circling the earth. Today on 1A, as part of our Cyber Monday series, we look at the problem of space debris, what it could do to our satellite systems and our way of life. Plus, what happens if a bad actor hacks an old satellite. Joining us in studio to discuss is Dena Temple Rastin. She's the host and managing editor of Click Here. That's a twice weekly tech news podcast from PRX and Recorded future news. Dena, welcome back.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Thank you very much.

[Jen White]

Okay, so Dina, let's start with something small. I mean really small. A paint fleck. Something maybe the size of a sesame. Why should we care about something like that? Floating hundreds of miles above the Earth.

[Ed Liu]

Because when it's floating, it's floating at 17,000 miles an hour. So even a sesame seed can become.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

A bullet at that kind of speed.

[Ed Liu]

We sat down with a former NASA astronaut named Ed Liu. And he said that when he was aboard the International Space Station, the thing that really took him aback was how many teeny holes there were all over it. They were in the handrails, they were in the insulation, they were in the space station's exterior. And that teeny tiny paint fleck could rip through a satellite like a shotgun blast. And that's the danger. And that's why people are looking at things like space debris.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Now.

[Jen White]

When I think about the universe, it's something that's constantly expanding. It's incomprehensibly vast. So how can the space around Earth turn into such a mess?

[Ed Liu]

It's actually much worse than people realize. So as you said, There are about 10,000 active satellites in low Earth orbit right now. And there are more and more going up every week. We hear about these launches, you know, hundreds of satellites at. There are also these million pieces of debris. So there's screws.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

They're dead satellites.

[Ed Liu]

They're little rocket parts. And they don't just stay still. Cause they're flying around. You kind of have to avoid them. And the thing that worries people is if there's like one crash, say one satellite bumps another satellite, then everything is sort of a ripple effect and everything can possibly run into something else. And it's quite a catastrophic idea.

[Jen White]

Well, in another episode of Click Here, you spoke to someone who had space debris fall into his yard. Here's Jordan Hobbs. He's a cattle farmer who in the Australian outback.

[Jordan Hobbs]

Once I got out and saw that it had like a radiator, like an aluminium fluting through it, and a special woven sort of material on the outside, each side, and distinctive, I guess you would say, almost like a switchboard wiring. And many people made the comment that it's like a hoverboard. You know, you've been gifted with a hoverboard from space.

[Jen White]

I don't know that he saw it as a gift, but that had to be a pretty startling experience for him.

[Ed Liu]

He thought something had blown in from the road. And the closer and closer he got to it, the more it looked like something from outer space. And it was actually his wife who said, I think they found something else like that in Australia. And looked it up, and sure enough, it was part of a Elon Musk satellite that had fallen to Earth. And what's funny about that is so many people came to see it that he stopped being very accommodating to all the people who were coming. So he took it, he put it in a suitcase and it's sitting in his barn in a suitcase. So people will stop asking about it.

[Jen White]

I wonder if made him think about what's happening in space differently. Because you certainly don't think about something falling out of space and hitting your home or hitting you, God forbid.

[Ed Liu]

Exactly. They usually fall in the ocean, these pieces of space debris that or they actually disintegrate on the way into the Earth's atmosphere. So that's why you don't hear that many of them. But Australia is sort of this really big sort of landing pad in the middle of the ocean, which is why a lot of these pieces of satellites end up dropping there.

[Jen White]

So as you laid out Dena, there's the problem or concern about satellites bumping into each other in a crowded orbit. But you get into something darker and that's a risk to satellites that isn't accidental. Talk to us about the concern around hacking.

[Ed Liu]

So the Click Here podcast is really all about cyber and intelligence. And the way we got into this is because this actual idea of hacking into a satellite, and it's something they're talking a lot about in the Pentagon and they think about it a lot, but they don't talk about it publicly very much because they're concerned about it and the kind of effect it could have. But it's not really theore. The most high profile example we have of hacking into a satellite happened at the beginning of the Russian invasion with Ukraine. They hacked into ViaSat's Ka satellite and that provided Internet not just for the military in Ukraine, but for the Internet all across Europe. And just hours before they actually passed the border, the hackers launched this destructive cyber attack on the ground based modems that were sort of talking to the satellite. And it knocked out communications for tens of thousands of users, not just the Ukrainian military units that they were sort of targeting. And in the end, the European Union, I think the UK and the US and a bunch of other allies all said that they had attributed it to Russia's GRU military intelligence agency.

[Jen White]

Now you also describe in the podcast a theory that was developed in the 70s and it's around the potential for a cascading event of satellite crashes, which then makes lower Earth orbit even more dangerous or unusable. It's called the Kessler Syndrome. Tell us a little more about that.

[Ed Liu]

Think of it as A cosmic pileup. So basically, there's so many satellites spinning around the Earth in their various orbits, and one gets knocked out of its orbit, say, by a dead satellite or maybe a satellite somebody's controlling and using as a projectile. It gets knocked out of its orbit. It hits the next thing, which gets knocked out of its orbit, which hits the next thing. And basically you have this, you know, ripple effect of all these different satellites, not just not being where they're supposed to be, but all of a sudden, sort of like, you know, during a blizzard, you have a pile up on the highway. It's that. But in space.

[Jen White]

Well. And how easy is it to. Or difficult is it to knock something out of orbit?

[Ed Liu]

Well, that you. From a use of force, something hitting it. Not that hard. Remember, everything there is moving really quickly. But more precisely, how easy is it to knock something out of orbit by hacking it? We don't know exactly, except that we do know that a lot of the satellites that are up there now are satellites that were built when we didn't really worry too much about hacking. It's very old technology, and so as a result, they're having to try and figure out how to protect them after the fact. It was sort of the same thing with the Internet, Right? Nobody really thought that the Internet was going to be a place where you could motivate people. They thought it was going to be information. They didn't think about the bad parts of the Internet. And that's sort of what's going on now in space. They're beginning to realize that there's this whole sort of vulnerability there that they hadn't thought about. And that's one of the reasons why in 2019, they set up the US Space Command. It was basically a space force to start to look at some of these issues, but also look at weaponry in space and that sort of thing.

[Jen White]

So what do the experts you spoke to tell you about the likelihood of someone intentionally hacking a satellite to use it as a weapon?

[Ed Liu]

Oh, I think they think the likelihood is 100%.

[Jen White]

Wow.

[Ed Liu]

I don't think it's pie in the sky thing. I think it's something that they're genuinely worried about, which is why we got interested in it for the podcast. I don't think it's something. It hasn't happened very often. There's this other really cool thing. There's this thing called space weather. Do you remember when we saw all the lights a couple of months ago? Okay, so that was during a solar storm, right? Well, it turns out that solar Storms are the perfect time to start hacking satellites because no one knows if it's an adversary hacking a satellite or if it's a solar storm that is breaking up the commun. We were at sort of a space center in Colorado Springs and we were asking them about that and they said, yes, we could just see this explosion of activity as soon as the solar storm happened. The adversaries that we were sort of watching were trying to see what they could do kind of under the COVID of the solar storm.

[Jen White]

So have U.S. officials learned enough from cyber warfare to be ready for a hostile cyber satellite attack?

[Ed Liu]

I think that it's something that they're doing right. I think that part of it is you could actually hack what's here on Earth, right? What's communicating with the satellite. So they're building up defenses around those kinds of repeater stations and everything on Earth so that that can't happen. The one that everybody talks about is there was a Chinese one that happened during a solar storm and for just 10 seconds. Allegedly. They haven't said this publicly, but all the experts talk about it for just 10 seconds. They took over a satellite that had a GPS positioning on it and then let it go. And if you can do it for 10 seconds, you can do it for a lot longer.

[Jen White]

We'll be right back.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Click Here is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company has affiliates potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. ChatGPT AI machine satellite engine ignition.

[Ed Liu]

Click here and lift up.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Today on Click here, we're leaving Earth behind and taking you into orbit where space isn't the peaceful frontier we once imagined, but something messier and far more contested. And in this next segment, we'll meet a former astronaut who now tracks space junk the way cybersecurity teams might track malware and intrusions. And we'll explore how that junk, those broken satellites and forgotten rocket parts, could become the next great weapon. Its space as battlefield where the debris isn't just dangerous, it's strategic. This episode comes with some help from our friends at 1A, NPR and WAMU's Daily Talk Show. And the next voice you'll hear is Jen White, the host of the show.

[Jen White]

Click Here spoke to a former astronaut and other defense experts about the risks of debris flying around in space and what can be done to reduce the risk of a multi Vehicle pileup. Whether by accident or on purpose. Let's listen.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

A few years ago, Ed Lieu recorded this video from the International Space Station. He was in the station's bay, floating about 250 miles above the Earth.

[Ed Liu]

Good evening and greetings from the International Space station. I'm Expedition 7 flight engineer and NASA science officer Ed Liu.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

During his NASA career, Ed did spacewalk. And a spacewalk isn't so much a walk as it is a workout. They usually last for hours. So people like Ed check instruments, tighten bolts, and look for problems on the station's exterior. And as he made his way around, moving from one handrail to the next, he fully expected to see some loose bolts and this spectacular view of the Earth. But there was something else he kept spotting too. Something pretty terrifying. Holes. Lots and lots of holes.

[Ed Liu]

I remember seeing a sort of hole in one of the handrails. Looked like a bullet hole. And at that time, the space station had only been up for a few years.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

These holes were created by what NASA has deemed the number one risk to astronauts in space.

[Ed Liu]

NASA does a something they call a probabilistic risk assessment, which, where they try and add up what are the largest causes of risk. And the largest risk for astronauts on the space station is space debris.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Space debris. There are millions of pieces of it circling the Earth. There are big pieces, everything from dead satellites to spent rocket stages and tiny one like bolts and paint flecks. And they're all whizzing around at speeds that can be faster than a speeding bullet. It's a huge problem. Think about what a pebble does to your windshield at 80 miles an hour. And this is much, much worse.

[Ed Liu]

It was that way in 2003. It's that way today. Every year, year in, year out, it's number one on the list.

Could you hear debris hitting the space station?

I have heard that, you know, a very loud ping sound. You'll hear it throughout the space station. You don't know where it's coming from.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

When Ed Liu retired From NASA in 2007, he decided to try to nail down where all those pieces of space junk were coming from. Not just to help future astronauts, but to keep people on Earth safe too. At first, he was focused on what you might call a more organic form of space junk.

[Ed Liu]

We've been working on the problem of preventing asteroid impacts on Earth.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Ed helped launch a nonprofit called the B612 Foundation. It's a reference from the Little Prince. It's a tiny asteroid sized world of the book. Ed and the people at the foundation decided to map and track as many near Earth asteroids as possible because, and this is important, if we can find them early enough, we can do something about them.

[Ed Liu]

If you know where an asteroid is years ahead of time, that one's going to hit the Earth. It's almost relatively easy to deflect an asteroid. All you need to do is give them an absolutely ridiculously tiny nudge to make them miss the Earth.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Really, this happened in real life. Just a couple of years ago, NASA used a small spacecraft to slam into the asteroid Dimorphos.

[Nancy Gallagher]

NASA is about to intentionally crash a spacecraft and into an asteroid.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And they're going to do mission known.

[Bob Gourley]

As DART, a Test of Quote Planetary Defense.

[Nancy Gallagher]

3, 2, 1.

[Jen White]

Oh my gosh.

[Ed Liu]

In the name of planetary defense.

[Nancy Gallagher]

It is a first for humanity. NASA successfully changed the path of an asteroid.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

After doing that for several years, Ed then spotted a trend that was happening so far in the background, or maybe so far up in space, most of us probably didn't give it much thought.

[Nancy Gallagher]

3, 2, 1.

[Gregory Falco]

SpaceX lifted off from the launch pad in Southern California minutes later, sending 10 satellites into space.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Thousands and thousands of satellites have been launched into space. And now they're tracking our weather, sending us TikToks and hopefully providing directions so we can get to brunch on time. They've become kind of like the utility poles of space. No wires, but just as vital.

[Ed Liu]

All of our modern day life is dependent upon things going on in space. A lot of people don't realize this.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

It sounds strange to say it, but as more and more satellites go up, space is getting more and more crowded, or at least the area where satellites typically settle, something called the low Earth orbit or LEO. It's about 1200 miles above us, so.

[Ed Liu]

There'S a lot of activity. And there are satellites that tail other satellites, that track other satellites that get close to the maneuver to get close to other satellites. There's all sorts of stuff happening. It's not, it's a very dynamic situation.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

He's not exaggerating. There are about 10,000 active satellites in low Earth orbit right now. And there are something like 25,000 or so pieces of, of space debris that are large enough to be tracked. Things like bits of satellites with another 250,000 pieces of untracked debris like those paint flecks. Low Earth orbit is no longer like a backcountry road. It's getting dangerously close to the Audubon at rush hour. As Ed watched this unfold, he had an epiphany. This cosmic highway Needs a traffic cop. So he switched from tracking asteroids to tracking satellites and space junk. And he helped set up a company called LeoLabs. They've set up radars around the world to track all the stuff that's in low earth orbit.

[Ed Liu]

What we do is we help satellite operators prevent collisions with other objects because we tell them where everything is.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

They can spot when debris is on a collision course with something and then alert people so they can stop that before it happens. Flight 022, turn right at 180 and maintain at 3000, often well before it happens. LeoLabs can actually predict potential collisions up to seven days in advance. So they can give companies plenty of time to move their satellites out of the way.

[Ed Liu]

We've had some very close passes. We have tracked objects that have gone within a few meters of each other, a few tens of meters for sure, at, you know, a relative velocity of 15 or so kilometers per second, that's, you know, 35,000 miles per hour. And to miss by like meters is, is crazy. And we've, we've observed that many times.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

If all of this wasn't already making you feel anxious enough, the threat actually isn't just about one satellite hitting another. A kind of interstellar fender bender. The real concern is a pileup, because of course, when you move to avoid object A, you might be running into object B. And if you hit object B, it might then ricochet off a half dozen other objects. One piece of junk hits, say, the space station, and something flies off and it becomes another piece of junk. And every collision increases the odds of more collisions. And eventually the space around the earth could get so cluttered that satellites are under constant threat of that or even worse, that launching new satellites becomes almost impossible. A NASA scientist named Donald Kessler read aloud about this back in the 1970s. But he had a sort of evil twist. Not just what if two satellites accidentally run into each other, but what if some villain hacked into a defunct satellite, turned it into a projectile, and then created one of those destructive chain reactions, not by accident, but on purpose. This is now known as the Kessler syndrome. And should it come to pass, the worst case scenario could be terrifying.

[Donald Kessler]

Space is increasingly a contested environment, and it's actually a war fighting domain.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Satellites in space have become central to maintaining stability here on Earth. Their core to military strategy, Internet functionality, economic growth. So Kessler's nightmare scenario that someone might intentionally try to disrupt the satellite system isn't just a theoretical scientific concern, but a very clear and possibly present danger.

[Ed Liu]

Because space is so economically Important, strategically important. There is the potential for bad actors to create mayhem. You could cripple company or a country by cutting off certain key services. Right. And that's what countries and companies are worried about.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Turns out that preventing that kind of mayhem in space has a terrestrial equivalent, something near and dear to our hearts. Cybersecurity.

[Ed Liu]

Why is the Internet target? Because that's where the money is, right? Or that's where all the services are. The same can be said of space right now. Just like the cybersecurities are tracking what's going on on the Internet, we're tracking what's going on in space.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And just like cyber threats, space threats seem to be growing almost faster than we can keep up. Just ask Bob Gourley, the former chief technology officer at the Defense Intelligence Agency, or dia.

[Lucas Riley]

I believe we need to treat space junk as a cyber threat.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

He came to this conclusion after spending years studying these threats up close.

[Lucas Riley]

I was a early consumer of the nation's intelligence capabilities from space.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

DLAA is the agency at the Defense Department that produces and manages foreign military intelligence. And Bob says it's only a matter of time before space junk is weaponized.

[Ed Liu]

In the same way.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

It was only a matter of time before computer code went to the dark side. And this threat could come about in a very unexpected way. So far we've been talking only about all those new satellites that have been launched recently. But what about this other problem, Satellites that have been in space since the late 1950s.

[Lucas Riley]

We have satellites that were launched decades ago that are still up there, that are not as secure.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

There are untold numbers of satellites up in space right now running on software that was developed during the Kennedy or Nixon administration. And it's so old that updating it is nearly impossible. You can see where this is headed. Those kinds of satellites could be incredibly easy to take over. Much easier than you might think.

[Lucas Riley]

A hobbyist from their home could put an antenna up on their roof and send a wake up command to a satellite parked in geosynchronous orbit. And next thing you know, that satellite wakes up. And then this hobbyist in theory could send its signals like maneuver over here or take a picture or send some data back. If it's some old ancient system that we launched back in the 80s, that's a definite realistic threat.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Satellites taken over by not just your weird neighbor in his basement, but a nation state with the next to grind. They could be used as a kind of cosmic hand grenade, sent hurtling in the path of satellites that keep the Internet online or Military communications flowing. This isn't just an idle concern. Back in the 1990s, a time when the Internet was a little clunky, but still pretty magical, Bob Gourley was part of a team watching this unexpected thing happening at the Pentagon. Files just started disappearing, classified ones about military plans and NASA.

[Lucas Riley]

This is one where I was absolutely instrumental in figuring out who is doing it and what do they want and how do we stop them.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

It turns out who was doing it was hackers from the Russian military intelligence service. And what were they taking?

[Lucas Riley]

The information they were stealing was about our satellites and other technical systems.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Fast forward a couple of decades and adversaries are still doing those kinds of things. Three years ago, right after Russia invaded Ukraine, it hacked satellites that the Ukrainian military was using to talk to its troops. And back in 2007, when Ed Liu was still at NASA, Gregory Falco says that two US government satellites actually got hacked.

[Donald Kessler]

The satellites were attacked and taken control over for a matter of tens of seconds, and the operations center lost complete control over these assets.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Gregory is an assistant professor of aerospace engineering at Cornell University. And while the US eventually got them back, the mere fact that someone tried to take them over for any length of time, that was a wake up call. It sent shock waves through the intelligence community, and it took a while to actually attribute the attack. Officials think the Chinese were behind it. In fact, they even telegraphed their plans to do it.

[Donald Kessler]

China had in its space strategy saying we plan to hijack satellites. And then they've demonstrated how they are able to hijack satellites.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Though the intelligence community has been pretty tight lipped about any satellite hacks since then, Gregory says they've happened.

[Donald Kessler]

There's been a number of attacks against these systems. Most of them that happen in space, though, are usually not disclosed publicly.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Whether or not people are willing to talk publicly about these celestial hacks, there is a way to spot them by looking at what all these orbiting objects look like when they're just spinning around the earth and then spotting anomalies. Which is why Ed Liu and others like him are making giant space junk maps. Because if you know exactly what a satellite is supposed to, it's a lot easier to notice when that changes. Ed has already seen it happen.

[Ed Liu]

Then suddenly we've noticed, start moving something that just had not doing anything for years and suddenly start to maneuver.

You know, I think it's really interesting that, you know, if we look at the Internet, when it was created, nobody ever thought about bad people using it, right? There was just a failure of imagination in terms of regulating it in the beginning, and we're rushing to catch up. Do you think that we're making the same mistake when it comes to space, or do you think that we've kind of learned our lesson and we're trying.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

To get ahead of this?

[Ed Liu]

I don't think society learns its lessons like that. You know, any new technology has, you know, enormous pluses and minuses, right? And nothing is entirely positive, nothing is entirely negative. And it's a mistake to think that, you know, suddenly, you know, we were dumb then and now we're smart. We'll never make this mistake again. Right? That's, that's not true.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Right?

[Ed Liu]

Just like everything else, something will be growing like crazy, but only a small fraction of the society realizes this and, and understands the significance of this great change. Right. I think the majority of the population in, you know, mid-1990s did not realize the significance of the growth of the Internet. What would happen to society? You know, same thing's happening in space. Right now.

[Jen White]

We'Re talking to qlik here, host and managing editor Dina Temple Rastin. And so to come, we hear from another expert on space as a theater for technological development, including tech that could have military uses. I'm Jen White. We'll be right back.

[Bob Gourley]

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[Gregory Falco]

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[Ed Liu]

For Recorded Future News, this is Click here.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

I'm Dina Temple Rowston. The space age isn't what it used to be. Gone are the Cold war countdowns and grainy moon landings and in their place, launchpads with corporate logos, private companies charting orbital paths, and cybersecurity protocols written not by governments, but by tech CEOs. It's not just about exploration anymore. It's about surveillance and control, and in some cases, sabotage. Space has quietly become the next theater for geopolitics and maybe the next battlefield for hackers. To unpack that one, a invited Nancy Gallagher, a research professor and director at the center for International and Security Studies at the University of Maryland. She joined the conversation. Some listeners called in, and the questions, like orbits, were far ranging. Here's Jen White again.

[Jen White]

Nancy, what have we seen in terms of hostile actors trying to control satellites?

[Nancy Gallagher]

We've seen basically interference with the uplinks and the downlinks. Those are the way you talk from ground stations on Earth up to the satellites to tell them what you want them to do and then send information back down from the satellites to Earth. So the example that was given earlier in the show of the satellite that was interfered with at the very start of the Ukrainian war was essentially interfering with the ground receivers so that they couldn't get information. It knocked out communications for not just the Ukrainian military, the intended target, but many other users of that system in Europe. But the Ukrainian military was able to adjust pretty quickly. And that's one key point is that there's been a lot of thought about resilience, so that if one satellite goes down for some period of time, there's either another satellite that can take over the function, or you can shift to some other mode of getting the information and the communication that you need.

[Jen White]

Well, we got this question from Will in Maryland, who says how many of the satellites currently in orbit would be disabled or destroyed by an electromagnetic pulse or an EMP from one or several nuclear bombs detonated in low Earth orbit. Nancy, what can you tell us?

[Nancy Gallagher]

It would depend what the altitude was that it was detonated and how quickly you were concerned about the radiation would immediately disable satellites that weren't sufficiently hardened within the line of sight. But then over time, other satellites could move into that radiation belt, and if they hadn't been hardened hardened, they could be degraded as well. The US Military has hardened many of its satellites, but it also relies extensively on commercial satellites for communications, for imagery, etc. Those satellites frequently aren't hardened to the same degree. But I think the most important point here is that the United States, Russia, China, and a number of other countries have had the ability to detonate a nuclear weapon in low Earth orbit, in some cases for decades, just shooting one up in a ballistic missile is all you have to do. This is not a new capability and nobody has seen any reason to do that yet. It would be a major, major step that I think would only be taken under the most extreme circumstances.

[Jen White]

Well, Dina, if hacking into a satellite to control it is still a rare occurrence, what are the benefits of hacking to cause a disruption compared to using something like a missile?

[Ed Liu]

Attribution. The problem with missiles is you know where they shot from and you can figure out who shot them typically. Whereas this was what we were talking about before. I mean, one of the reasons why they do a lot of this hacking during solar storms is because it makes attribution even more difficult. And this is why, you know, David Sanger of the New York Times had a book called the Perfect Weapon, which was about cyber weapons. And the theme of the book was basically it's the perfect weapon because it's hard to attribute it to whoever did it. So you can get away with a lot of stuff and no one can be absolutely sure you were the person behind it. That's the problem with hacking satellites as well. You know what happens if all you do is cozy up to a satellite and listen to what is being said there. That's what they think happened during some of these solar storms is that Chinese satellites cozied up to US communications satellites to see how much they could pick up.

[Jen White]

We also heard from Jim who says my daughter flew satellites for the US Air Force. She said most of the technology was from the 80s. Green screens, DOS commands, and even floppy disks. When I asked why this stuff hasn't been upgraded, her answer was that you can't wait for the latest technology. At some point you just have to throw the thing up there with what you have at the time. Many of our communication and tactical satellites have been in space for 40 plus years now, Nancy. Some of the most active countries in space are those that are hostile to the U.S. you mentioned Russia, our competitor China. In many areas, including foreign policy and trade, there's significant mistrust. So how does that mistrust play a role in what we do in space?

[Nancy Gallagher]

Well, I think that the Russians and the Chinese have been very concerned, particularly since the early 2000s, about all the capabilities that the United States had that would enable them to use space in ways that would let them potentially win a nuclear, or conceivably even they worried a nuclear war. They watched what happened in the Gulf War, they've watched what happened in Iraq, et cetera, and they decided that they needed to develop both a better understanding of what types of space capabilities the United States actually had, but also ways that they could offset those capabilities if need be. And as U.S. relations with a number of countries have gotten worse over time, they've become increasingly concerned, particularly about ensuring that the United States understands that no matter who shoots first, the Russians and the Chinese have a secure, reliable, retaliatory nuclear deterrent.

[Jen White]

Well, and you mentioned the Gulf War in Iraq. Explain a little bit more about what happened.

[Nancy Gallagher]

Well, in the Gulf War in Iraq, basically we were able to use space enabled sensing and precision guidance to be able to project force over long distances of space and time without having to have as many troops on the ground be able to find and identify and hit targets. We hadn't been able to do so easily before. And over time, our capabilities for using space to enhance our conventional military capabilities have become more and more sophisticated.

[Jen White]

The US signed the Outer Space Treaty in 1967, and it was meant to outline what activities were and weren't allowed in space, including military activity. Russia was, then the Soviet Union signed it and the People's Republic of China accepted the treaty more than a decade later, and it's still in force today. And it states that space is meant for peaceful development. So, Nancy, how concerned is the US Government about space turning into an arena where military action isn't off the table?

[Nancy Gallagher]

Well, the United States and the Soviet Union have always used space for military activities. When the Outer Space Treaty was written, peaceful was understood to mean consistent with international law, which includes deterrence. It includes the use of force for self defense, but it does not legitimate use of force for territorial aggression, using space for reconnaissance, using it for arms control verification, using it for communication, using it for early warning. All of that has been considered consistent with the peaceful uses of military space, of stationing weapons in space and then using them offensively obviously wouldn't be.

[Jen White]

Janisha asks, is it possible to remove dead satellites from space? If so, are these efforts underway? It seems like an obvious solution for increasing security and reducing the potential for collisions.

[Ed Liu]

Dina, there are actually dead satellite graveyards up there where you basically park your dead satellite someplace out of the way, which is out of lower earth orbit. I think there are also, and maybe Nancy will know this better than I, but there are ways to bring satellites down, right? The US recommends that dead satellites deorbit within 25 years, but that's just guidance. It's not a law and there's no global enforcement for that. But basically the idea is you can park your satellite out of everybody's way while you try to figure out what to do with it.

[Jen White]

Nancy, briefly, anything to add?

[Nancy Gallagher]

Yeah, there's international agreement on best practices to mitigate space debris, and that includes things like parking defunct satellites in graveyard orbits. There's also research that's going on to be able to basically remove satellites or other debris from space. The challenge is that doing that requires, quote, cozying up to another satellite. Right. And if somebody comes up close to your satellite and it's not you and they haven't told you what they're doing there, you have absolutely no idea. Are they listening in? Are they testing their capabilities to get close for hostile purposes, or are they testing capabilities to get close for purposes that would enable them to fix a satellite that was broken in some way or possibly remove it from orbit?

[Jen White]

I want to squeeze in this last question from Mary, who says, I wonder what the backup systems are. If for some reason there is a satellite failure and another one that cannot be accessed, does our information then rely on wires or what? What is the daily risk to us on the ground with that kind of failure? Deana Just a sentence or two.

[Ed Liu]

Just quickly. I mean, there's so much of what we have right now that depends on satellites. There are backup systems, but if you were to kill a wave of satellites, I think that's the concern.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

That was part of my conversation with Jen White, the host of 1A from NPR and WAMU. You can hear the full segment with more listener calls and questions [e-mail].

[Ed Liu]

Click.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Here is a production of recorded future news and PRX. I'm Dena Temple Raston. Our producers are Megan Dietre, Sean Powers, Erica Gaeda, and Zach Hirsch. Special thanks this week to one A host, Jen White. Click Here is edited by Karen Duffin and Fact Checked by Darren Ancrus. It contains the original music by Ben Levingston with some other music from Blue Dot Sessions. Our staff writer is Lucas Riley, and our illustrator is Megan Gough. Martin Peralta and Jessine Niswonger are our sound designers and engineers. Tune in on Friday for Mic Drop, which features our favorite interview of the week. We'll see you then.

[Gregory Falco]

If you're looking for a daily guide to cybersecurity news and policy, sign up for the Cyber Daily from Recorded Future News. It serves up the day's most interesting and important cyber stories from our sister publication the Record, and then aggregates all of the big cyber stories you might have missed from news outlets around the world. Just go to the Record Media and click on Cyber Daily to get all you need to know about the world of cybersecurity right in your inbox.