The TikTok ban, China, and national security

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The TikTok Ban, China, and National Security"

Recorded Future News presents "Click Here," a podcast delving into the intricate dynamics of the digital world. In the episode titled "The TikTok Ban, China, and National Security," host Dina Temple-Raston explores the multifaceted issues surrounding TikTok's potential ban in the United States, the national security concerns tied to its Chinese ownership, and the broader implications for data privacy and geopolitical influence.

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1. Current Status of TikTok in the U.S.

The episode opens with Dina Temple-Raston referencing her recent appearance on NPR's "1A," where the focus was on TikTok's precarious position in the U.S. market. As of March 11, 2025, TikTok faces an ultimatum: sell its American assets or face a nationwide ban. President Donald Trump had previously signed an executive order extending the sale deadline to April, under the supervision of Vice President J.D. Vance, a venture capitalist with Silicon Valley ties ([02:14]).

Notable Quote:

“The platform must sell its US assets or face a ban stateside.” — Jen White, Host of 1A ([00:48])

2. Efforts to Sell TikTok's American Assets

Vice President J.D. Vance leads the charge to find a suitable non-Chinese buyer for TikTok's U.S. operations. Potential buyers include high-profile figures like Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian and possibly Elon Musk. Ohanian's bid, dubbed the "people's bid," emphasizes retaining TikTok's extensive American user base without the controversial algorithm ([03:04]).

3. National Security Concerns

The crux of the debate revolves around national security. U.S. officials are apprehensive that TikTok's Chinese parent company, ByteDance, could be compelled by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) to access American user data or manipulate the platform's algorithm to influence public opinion globally. Dina underscores the legitimacy of these fears by citing China's 2017 law mandating companies to assist in intelligence gathering ([08:23]).

Notable Quote:

“The national security concerns surrounding TikTok stem primarily from its ties to China through its parent company, ByteDance.” — Dina Temple-Raston ([06:24])

4. Research on TikTok’s Algorithm and CCP Influence

A significant portion of the episode delves into research conducted by Joel Finkelstein and Fergus Ryan on TikTok’s algorithm. Their study revealed that TikTok disproportionately suppresses content critical of the CCP while promoting pro-China narratives. For instance, hashtags related to sensitive topics like Tiananmen Square protests and Uyghur issues were markedly underrepresented compared to platforms like Instagram ([18:26]).

Notable Quote:

“There was something like 50 to 1 on these kinds of hashtags, where you'd have 50 times more of this content on Instagram than you would on TikTok.” — Dina Temple-Raston ([19:57])

5. Personal Story: Esma, the Uyghur Activist

The episode features Esma Memti, a Uyghur activist from Munich, whose TikTok videos highlighting human rights abuses against Uyghurs were systematically removed. Her experience illustrates the tangible effects of TikTok's content moderation policies, which she believes are influenced by ByteDance's obligations to the CCP. Despite repeated attempts to raise awareness, her videos were taken down for reasons that seemed contrived, prompting her to adapt her strategies ([12:10] - [16:59]).

Notable Quote:

“We wanted to use China's weapons against them. We wanted to use their toxic algorithm for our benefit.” — Esma Memti ([25:42])

6. Opponents and Supporters of the Ban

Opponents of the ban argue that TikTok has not provided sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged security threats. They highlight the platform's value for small businesses and its role in free expression. Supporters, however, maintain that the potential risks posed by ByteDance's Chinese ownership warrant decisive action to protect national security and data privacy ([29:30]).

7. Listener Engagement and Broader Implications

The podcast includes interactions with listeners expressing both support and skepticism about the ban. Some listeners question the differential treatment of foreign apps compared to domestic ones, while others worry about data misuse from within the U.S. government. Dina responds by emphasizing that TikTok's Chinese ownership presents unique challenges that U.S.-based companies like Meta and Google do not face, given their domestic control and regulatory environment ([29:14] - [35:55]).

Notable Quote:

“When it comes to the TikTok app, I think they've made a pretty good case, at least to members of Congress and clearly to the Supreme Court, that there is a national security concern here that precipitates this kind of action.” — Dina Temple-Raston ([32:35])

8. Future Outlook

The episode concludes with unresolved questions about TikTok's future in the U.S. Will ByteDance comply with the sale, or will TikTok be shut down if a viable buyer isn't found? Experts like Fergus Ryan express cautious optimism about finding a legitimate buyer but acknowledge the significant influence the CCP wields over ByteDance, potentially impeding a complete divestment ([37:02]).

Notable Quote:

“The CCP's ability to directly influence the platform means that TikTok, it's not just another social media app. It's a strategic asset for the Chinese.” — Esma Memti ([24:26])

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Conclusion

"The TikTok Ban, China, and National Security" offers a comprehensive exploration of the geopolitical and security challenges posed by TikTok's Chinese ownership. Through expert interviews, personal narratives, and empirical research, Dina Temple-Raston underscores the complexities of regulating global digital platforms in an era marked by heightened concerns over data sovereignty and foreign influence.

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References:

• Podcast: Click Here
• Episode Title: The TikTok Ban, China, and National Security
• Release Date: March 11, 2025

Transcript

[Dena Temple Rastin]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here. Hey there, it's Dena. Last week, I was a guest on 1A. It's a daily news magazine from NPR and WAMU, and we talked about TikTok, not just the latest on the sale, but why it is so many national security officials think this little video app is such a threat, we thought we'd give you a chance to hear it. In case you missed it, the first voice you'll hear is Jen White, the host of 1A. Take a listen.

[Jen White]

Now, you may have noticed that TikTok returned to the App Store. This comes after President Donald Trump signed an executive order extending the deadline for a sale to April. But the clock is ticking. The platform must sell its US Assets or face a ban stateside. President Trump has reportedly asked Vice President J.D. vance to find a buyer, though it isn't clear who would buy it or Whether China or ByteDance, TikTok's mainland Chinese parent company, would even allow a sale to go through. What does the Future hold for TikTok? And why are American security officials so worried about the Chinese Communist Party using TikTok to control conversations around the world? Dina Temple Rastan is the host and managing editor of the Click Here podcast from Recorded Future News. She's been reporting on TikTok for months, and she joins us to talk about the latest on a possible deal for an app that 170 million Americans use. Dena, welcome back to the program.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Thank you so much.

[Jen White]

So, Dina, last April, Congress passed a law requiring ByteDance, that's TikTok's parent company, to sell the app's American assets to a non Chinese owner if it wants to continue operating in the U.S. tikTok appealed that all the way to the Supreme Court and lost. And in January of this year, the Supreme Court unanimously upheld the TikTok ban on the grounds of national security. Now, President Biden left office in January, leaving the Trump administration to enforce the ban. So lot lots of lead up there, but where do things stand now?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Well, so the ban officially went into effect on January 19, which was the day before Trump was sworn into office. And one of the first things that he did as president was sign an executive order that would put a hold on this ban for 75 days. He said he would be able to find a US Buyer for the app before April, which is when the ban allegedly would go back into effect. And then he put Vice President JD Vance in charge of making that happen.

[Jen White]

And why is Vance leading this effort?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Because he allegedly has a lot of Experience in this. You know, he was in Silicon Valley as a venture capitalist. He used to work for Peter Thiel of PayPal fame. He was involved with a deal that involved a U2 alternative called rumble. And because he was in the Valley, knows the players. People assume he'd be able to put together a deal because he knows people.

[Jen White]

There who are some of the potential buyers and what are their terms?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

It's a little unclear, it's all very fuzzy, but the list is long, long as your arm. Just yesterday, the Reddit co founder, Alexis Ohanian threw his hat into the ring. And if you can't quite place him in your head, he's the bearded guy who is married to Serena Williams. He's supposed to be joining forces with somebody named Frank McCourt, who is not a household name unless you're from LA, because he used to be the owner of the LA Dodgers. And he reportedly has a kind of long shot $20 billion bid, something he's called the people's bid. And he says he doesn't want the algorithm that runs TikTok. He just wants TikTok's 170 million American users. And he has some ideas about how to reimagine the Internet. So that's some of the contenders, of course, Just I'll throw in as the last one, possibly Elon Musk.

[Jen White]

I want to better understand, when we talk about the assets that are for sale, what are we talking about? Is it the algorithm? Is it the platform? What exactly is up for sale?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Basically, what we're seeing now is a move for TikTok to potentially maybe sell bits and pieces of TikTok, maybe not the algorithm. You'd think the algorithm would be the thing that everybody wants, right? Since that's. It's obviously working for them with 167, 70 million Americans. But it's really unclear how that would work and how they might piece it together. Or even worse, that China will even say that they can sell TikTok. So there's a lot of uncertainty in the whole sort of discussion.

[Jen White]

Now, some potential investors have suggested paths forward that actually sidestep a sale. What do those options look like?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

It might be just a change of control. So Maybe somebody gets 51% and they're an outside buyer that isn't a mainland Chinese buyer. Another option is this selling without the out algorithm, since the Chinese government has made it pretty clear that they don't want the algorithm sold. It's kind of like the secret sauce. And the reason why that's really important is that the Chinese government updated their export controls back in 2020, so they actually have a law that allows them to block the export of the algorithm if they want to.

[Jen White]

How big of the viewership of TikTok or the user base of TikTok is made up of Americans. How much do they rely on the American market to support the app?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

The American market is a big market for them. Now, originally, TikTok was really supposed to be someplace where you could buy and sell cheap things, right? And it was supposed to be a marketplace as opposed to just a video app. And so there's a lot of sales that go on there. And that's actually the part of the algorithm that they don't want to give up, is that they've been able to make it a little catnippy for sales. Losing the American market would be a huge market for them, but it's not all of it. And there are lots of different countries who are taking similar positions as the United States is in terms of being a little edgy about having TikTok have such an impact on their society. So I think they would rather get this solved rather than have this be the first in a succession of dominoes that falls and makes the TikTok app hard for anybody to get.

[Jen White]

Now, the officials who are pushing for the banner sales say they're doing this for national security reasons. Just lay out what their concerns are.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Well, the national security concerns surrounding TikTok stem primarily from its ties to China through its parent company, ByteDance. And US lawmakers are really worried that the Chinese government could pressure ByteDance to hand over American data or manipulate the platform's algorithm to kind of spread propaganda online. So this isn't just an idle concern. China passed a law in 2017 that requires Chinese companies to assist them in intelligence gathering. So if the CCP or some Beijing official asks them for their data, they have to give it to them. And this has led to those fears that TikTok could be used as a tool for espionage or foreign influence operations, particularly given the platform's massive user base here in the United States. The thing is, China has been vacuuming up data for years. They hacked the Office of personnel management in 2013 and stole personal information for about 22 million people inside and outside government. Hackers with China's Ministry of State Security hacked the Marriott Hotel about five years later. They collected all the personal Data on some 500 million guests as part of an intelligence gathering effort. Basically, they could maybe cross reference something that they got out of OPM with maybe hotel records somewhere that would let them know maybe somebody's a spy, maybe somebody who works for the government, something like that. And then just recently, Chinese hackers scooped up data on hundreds of thousands of American mobile phone users. So this isn't just the US being paranoid. I know a lot of supporters for TikTok say that they haven't really seen the national security ramifications of what TikTok could do in the United States. But if you just step back half a step, you realize that there is a potential here. And the Chinese have shown that they're more than willing to hoover up a great deal of information and we don't know for what end.

[Jen White]

How has bytedance tried to address these national security concerns, if at all they.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Have tried to address them. I mean, I'm sure you've seen a lot of the commercials that they've put out. Amazingly, this morning my New York Times, I still get a paper one was wrapped in a giant ad for TikTok. Giant glossy, four page ad wrapped the paper saying that by banning TikTok, you're putting lots of small businesses out of business. That this is an affront to First Amendment rights. You know, TikTok, by the way, is not allowed in China. So this is a very one sided First Amendment argument because not even the Chinese will allow TikTok to have this kind of influence in their own society. And that's been their argument all the way along. And First Amendment arguments usually work in this country. But I think it's really telling that the Supreme Court, when they looked at the evidence, were unanimous in saying that this might indeed be a national security threat. And this is in a time when we don't get a lot of unanimous decisions from the Supreme Court.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

You're listening to Click Here. And today we're airing a special sort of joint episode of Click here in 1A, a daily news and talk show from NPR and WAMU. Coming up, we revisit a story that we first brought you back in September about a young woman who kept having this problem. The TikTok videos she and her friends were posting kept vanishing and those disappearing videos actually revealed quite a bit about TikTok's algorithm. Stay with us. Click Here is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Today we're bringing you an episode from our friends at 1A, a daily news show from NPR and WAMU. I spoke with them last week about TikTok, and they featured an episode that we first brought you last fall, the Case of the disappearing TikTok videos. Here's one a host Jen White Again.

[Jen White]

According to the federal government, TikTok has until April 5 to find a buyer for its American assets or it faces a ban in the United States. That much is clear. What is unclear is whether or not the Chinese government would even allow a sale to go through. The popular video sharing platform is a powerful tool for sharing and swaying narratives about global politics, and it's hard to put a price on that kind of power. One TikTok user that click Here host Dina Temple Rastin spoke to knows the reach and scope of that power better than most.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Esma was born in southern Germany, and for the longest time she didn't know any kids who looked like she did or talked like she did.

[Esma Memti]

I grew up in a small town and there are like no Uyghurs at all here.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Esma is Uyghur, a Muslim minority that has been fighting for autonomy from China for years. You may have heard it pronounced Uyghur. Her parents left northwestern China in the 1990s and settled in Germany. So Esma grew up in a suburb of Munich, but her parents went out of their way to make sure that she understood her Uyghur heritage. They spoke their native tongue at home. They filled the house with Uyghur books and decor. But around her small town, Esma said people didn't know what to make of her.

[Esma Memti]

They were just saying, oh, okay, so you're from Uruguay. Or they were saying, okay, yeah, well then you're Chinese.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And then when she was about 16, she found another Uyghur girl on Instagram who lived nearby. And they became friends and discovered that there were actually lots of other Uyghurs their age in Munich. So they all started hanging out.

[Esma Memti]

It was the first kind of moment where I realized, oh, wow, there are other people like me. That felt very wholesome to just know. I don't have to explain my culture and my background to them. I can just be myself and they know where I'm from and who I am.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

They went to protest together, advocating for Uyghurs, and she started learning more about how the authorities in Beijing were treating Uyghurs inside China.

[Esma Memti]

I felt very inspired and very motivated to do something. And after that it really kind of got started.

[Joel Finkelstein]

Esma had a sort of political awakening, an awakening that would eventually put her in TikTok's crosshairs. She and her friends wanted to educate people about the plight of the Uyghurs in China. So being teenagers, they perhaps inevitably turned to TikTok.

[Esma Memti]

We knew that even back then in 2022, TikTok was the platform if you want to go viral and if you want to have a bigger audience.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

They tried a variety of things without much traction, and then they landed on something they thought just might catch on.

[Esma Memti]

We decided to go through Munich and everywhere we go we stick like a sticker of that and then film.

[Joel Finkelstein]

This is the music from that TikTok. And what you see in the video is a series of jump cuts of young women putting small square stickers in public places around Munich. One on a lamppost, another on a payphone or a snack machine. And all the stickers said was this. Google Uyghurs. Their goal was to just spark curiosity, to get people to learn for themselves about what Uyghurs were going through. But then this strange thing happened. Soon after Esma posted the video, TikTok took it down.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Basically, they said, you went against our community rules.

[Esma Memti]

Yeah, but it was something super hilarious. It was super. It didn't make sense because they said something like, it's aggressive or insulting or whatever, but it was literally just stickers.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

She sent us a screenshot of the tick tock notice. It actually said that the video was taken down because it showed violent behavior and criminal activities, even though the alleged violent behavior was just putting stickers around town. So they decided to make another video.

[Esma Memti]

Are leaked documents that reveal how China is detaining millions of Uyghurs in East Turkest.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

This one pointed people to a trove of leaked documents that revealed details about the prisons in northwestern China where the authorities in Beijing have been detaining Uyghurs.

[Esma Memti]

The files consist of over 10 gigabytes of speeches, protocols, spreadsheets and images.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

TikTok took this video down, too. So Esma decided to edit out words that TikTok sometimes doesn't like. Words like murder and sexual abuse. Things the leaked paper suggests China is doing to the Uyghurs. It's holding.

[Esma Memti]

And then it got taken down again.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

This time, TikTok said it contained too much personal information. We sent TikTok Esma's videos and they said they couldn't comment on why they were taken down. But Esma has a theory. It's not about her videos breaking community guidelines. Not exactly. She thinks it goes deeper to TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, headquartered in Beijing. And Aespa's not just wondering aloud. She's joined by a growing number of TikTok users who can't shake the feeling that something has shaped, shifted on the app. Not obvious, not easy to describe, but different. And as it turns out, they may be onto something. Researchers say the app's algorithm does appear to make decisions about what gets seen and what doesn't.

[Fergus Ryan]

They're suppressing anything that could be damning to the ccp, whether users like it or not.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

That's Joel Finkelstein. He runs the Network Contagion Research Institute at Rutgers. Basically, he studies how threats spread online.

[Fergus Ryan]

Whether it's crypto scams, anti Semitism, Hindu phobia, public health threats.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And according to Joel, these threats, they're containable if you spot them early, before they catch fire. But on social media, algorithms often fuel that spread. So Joel wanted to figure out if TikTok specifically does that, which is even harder than it sounds, because while TikTok maintains that they don't put their thumb on the algorithm, they won't share it.

[Joel Finkelstein]

It's a trade secret, they say. So in late 2023, Joel and his team designed a workaround to find out for themselves. They started by establishing a baseline, a measure of how much content there is on social media about topics unrelated to China.

[Fergus Ryan]

For instance, like, I can look up Trump on both, and I could look up Biden on both, and I could look up, I don't know who's the famous. Who's the most famous musician, you know?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Taylor Swift.

[Fergus Ryan]

Taylor Swift. I can look up Taylor Swift. Right.

[Joel Finkelstein]

So that's what they did. They looked up hashtags for politicians, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, and for pop culture, Barbie and Taylor Swift. Then they compared how much content pops up about, say, Taylor swift on Instagram versus how much pops up on TikTok. And pretty quickly, they noticed something.

[Fergus Ryan]

You can look those folks up, and the basic ratio is two occurrences of that hashtag on Instagram for every one occurrence on TikTok.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Essentially, every time Joe Biden got mentioned on TikTok, he'd get twice as many shout outs on Instagram. The same was true of Donald Trump. And it worked with the Barbie movie, too.

[Fergus Ryan]

And that's true both for politics and it's true for popular culture. And that's true almost across the board.

[Joel Finkelstein]

So that was Joel's baseline. Roughly speaking, there should be about twice as much content about a topic on Instagram than there is on TikTok. And then they started to look at topics the Chinese Communist Party sees as hot button issues.

[Fergus Ryan]

Taiwan, the Dalai Lama, Tibet. We looked at the Uyghurs, of course, and we also looked at foreign issues in which we knew had an interest to the ccp. We looked up Israel and Palestine, we looked up hashtags related to India and Pakistan, and we looked up hashtags related to Ukraine.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And they found a completely different ratio than what they'd seen with topics like Biden or Barbie. In every case, content about issues the Chinese government or CCP traditionally censors, there was significantly less of that on TikTok than on similar platforms like Instagram.

[Fergus Ryan]

And these were not minor differences. It wasn't 2 to 1 on the Dalai Lama. It was. It was something like 50 to 1 on these kinds of hashtags, where you'd have 50 times more of this content on Instagram than you would on TikTok.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

That is, every time the Dalai Lama got mentioned on TikTok, he got 50 more shout outs on Instagram. The result for Tiananmen Square, the site of the 1989 crackdown on student demonstrators, showed a ratio of 80:1 to 1. And the term Hong Kong protests, even worse, 180:1 to 1.

[Fergus Ryan]

There's so much more interest on Instagram for anything that's damaging to the CCP, and it's like a desert of that information on TikTok.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

On the flip side, content on TikTok about things the Chinese leadership wants to promote. Well, there was lots of that. Take the issue of Kashmir. For decades now, China has been fighting India over the border region of Kashmir. The Pro China hashtag standwithkashmir was 600 times more likely to appear on TikTok than than it was on Instagram. The ratios were so dramatically different that Joel and the team concluded the only way that could happen is if the Chinese leadership had some say in what was appearing on TikTok.

[Fergus Ryan]

I could take this report to Xi Jinping and I could say, listen, if this is a deliberate effort, I give you an A plus. You have done a terrific job. These are very sizable impacts.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

We asked TikTok about this, and their spokesman, Michael Hughes, said that the report's methodology was flawed to reach a predetermined false conclusion. But a peer review published in late January in the journal Frontiers in Social Psychology supported Joel's conclusions and didn't find anything flawed about the methodology he used to get there.

[Fergus Ryan]

The people that reviewed this include the person who literally developed all the methodologies for the FBI hate crime database. He's a quantitative sociologist from the University of West Virginia, the chair of sociology there. And they also included other quantitative specialists. I mean, they put us through our paces, but they got this through the other side of peer review, and we published it.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

The Biden, Justice Department, and National Security Council found Joel's conclusions so compelling, they used what he discovered to write what eventually became the law everyone is talking about now, the one that requires TikTok to be sold if it wants to continue to operate in the us.

[Joel Finkelstein]

And then this other thing happened. After the Rutgers report came out. The analytical tool that Joel's team had used to do the analysis, TikTok, straight up removed it.

[Fergus Ryan]

They did that without any announcement. This is a major feature, and they did it surreptitiously, and they certainly didn't tell us it was down. So after saying that the methodology was bogus, they then stopped the capacity for the rest of the research community to be able to examine them in this fashion, which is, I think, as much an admission of a problem as one could make, right?

[Dena Temple Rastin]

None of this surprises Fergus Ryan. He's a senior China analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, which does research for the Aussie Department of Defense, and he's been studying TikTok for years. He said it isn't a stretch to think that TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, would have to respond if the Chinese government asked it to tweak the algorithm to ensure people are seeing what the CCP wants them to see.

[Esma Memti]

All Chinese tech firms, they're forced by law to assist the government in intelligence work if asked. And that means that it can't realistically refuse requests from the Chinese government because.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

People who disobey them or seem to go their own way have an unsettling tendency. Tendency to kind of disappear. Even very prominent people like Jack Ma, he's the richest man in China. He founded Alibaba, the closest thing Amazon.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Has to a real rival.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

It's a massive global company based in China. But after he criticized the Chinese government a few years ago, he seemed to vanish. And he only returned to the country in March 2023, this time as a teacher, not a businessman. That's the kind of power the Chinese government has, even over its most prominent business leaders and their companies. So if they wanted to nudge TikTok's algorithm, there's no doubt that they could. And TikTok's parent company would have a hard time refusing.

[Esma Memti]

The CCP's ability to directly influence the platform means that TikTok, it's not just another social media app. It's a strategic asset for the Chinese.

[Joel Finkelstein]

State, that is what has people nervous. Instagram, Facebook, they're US based, where the government just doesn't have that type of influence. And Ryan says this matters also because TikTok doesn't just entertain, it shapes how people think about China, about his government. And that isn't just speculation. Joel and his team asked TikTok users what they thought.

[Fergus Ryan]

So we directly asked subjects, you know, what do you think of what is Tiananmen best known for? Is it best known as a great tourist attraction? China's human rights record, what do you think of that? You think it's pretty good or you think it's an awful record?

[Dena Temple Rastin]

The results were eye opening. TikTok users were 33% more likely to think of Tiananmen Square as just a tourist attraction compared to users on other platforms.

[Joel Finkelstein]

Remember Esma Memti meme, the Uyghur activist in Germany? From the beginning of the show, she co founded the Uyghur Youth Initiative, a non profit focused on exposing human rights abuses against Uyghurs. And you might think after all the videos TikTok took down that she'd give up, she'd just walk away.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

But no.

[Joel Finkelstein]

Esma and her friends decided to outsmart the algorithm to turn China's digital weapon into their own tool.

[Esma Memti]

Because we were thinking we could use, we wanted to use China's weapons against them. We wanted to use their toxic algorithm for our benefit.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And that's exactly what they've done, using TikTok's own system against itself. How? By using its trends function. Trends are the algorithm's weak spot. If you ride a wave, the platform pushes your content, no questions asked.

[Esma Memti]

Trends are literally the way you can trick the algorithm. If you hop on a trend, then TikTok will want to push your videos because TikTok knows that this trend is getting a lot of attention. And then we just try to use those trends for our cause.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Take this viral meme from late last year. People listing stereotypes about their jobs.

[Stephen]

We're librarians, of course I know what.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Book you're looking for when you just.

[Jen White]

Give me a color.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

I'm a sound engineer. Of course I'm going to have you do weird stuff when you're recording vocals. Can you give me that in a whisper, please?

[Joel Finkelstein]

Millions joined in and so did Esma, though with a twist.

[Esma Memti]

We are Euros, of course. Nobody can guess my nationality. We are Eulers, of course. We need four hours to prepare one dish. We are Uyrors, of course we. We don't have basic human rights. It was super, super improvised. We were done filming after five or 10 minutes. We just knew that we wanted to make it very sarcastic and we wanted to smile and we wanted to make people wonder. We are urus. Of course China is selling our organs. We of course you don't know if families are alive or not.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

The video blew up millions of views and Joel said it was genius. But even he acknowledges the fact that they have to rely on trends and irony just to be heard. Well, that's a problem. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's on the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass that's on the Media's specialty.

[Jen White]

Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brooke Gladstone]

If you're looking for a daily guide to cybersecurity news and policy, sign up for the Cyber Daily from Recorded Future News. It serves up the day's most interesting and important cyber stories from our sister publication the Record, and then aggregates all of the big cyber stories you might have missed from news outlets around the world. Just go to the Record Media and click on Cyber Daily to get all you need to know about the world of cybersecurity right in your inbox.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

You're listening to click here.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

I'm Dina Temple Rastin.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Let's get back to my conversation with Jen White, host of 1A, which is a daily call in show from NPR N WAMU.

[Jen White]

We got this question from Jason who says, what's the difference between the security threat that Meta and Google pose versus that of ByteDance? It's already been proven that Facebook influenced our national elections. Google controls some 98% of all web searches in the U.S. dina, that's a.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Great question and the concern is a real one. The big difference is at least the ownership of Meta and Google are American, so the thought is that they wouldn't be actually trying to undermine our national security. So the really big difference here is that TikTok is owned by a mainland Chinese company, which is how they're trying to solve the problem, right? They think that this will alleviate some of their concerns if you have a company that is at least 51% not owned by mainland China.

[Jen White]

We also got this piece of skepticism from another listener who says I love TikTok and think if it's truly a threat, it should be allowed to make corrections. Otherwise, I believe it's simply a ploy to let an American company in on this social media action. And I think they're speaking there to the fact that this is a powerful platform. Is this just a shot at giving an American company access to the platform that TikTok has?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

It's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. And opponents of the ban have always argued that lawmakers have not provided enough evidence that the Chinese government is actually weaponizing the app. That was part of the motivation behind trying to find a story to try to explain it and why. We talked to Esma Memti meme this Uyghur young woman in Munich and what we saw from that reporting is that the app or the ccp, the Chinese Communist Party, are both are starting to control a conversation and we're mobilizing people. Let me give you an example. When they first started talking about the ban on the TikTok app, senators and congresspeople were flooded with phone calls of a bunch of 13 and 14 year olds who were saying, I'm not quite sure why I'm calling you, but I was given this number to say, don't ban TikTok. Now how did that happen? Well, there was a pop up on TikTok that said call your senators, stop this from happening. So TikTok has always said, and ByteDance too, hey, we won't do anything to mobilize people. And this proved they could mobilize people.

[Jen White]

Let's go to the phones. We've got Stephen from Georgia. Steven, thanks for calling. What's on your mind?

[Stephen]

Yeah, one question that I had was what's to stop America from blocking any other applications internationally based just off the strength of national security?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Nothing. That's a very good point. I will say. However, this is not just something willy nilly that say an executive order was signed and all of a sudden it's banned. This did go through Congress. There was a lot of discussion about it. It didn't go through quickly and it was bipartisan. So there was an evident real concern that this app presented some sort of national security concern. And you know, it might happen with other adversaries. If there was a Russian app, if there was an Iranian app, and these are the sorts of things that we may see in the future. But I think when it comes to the TikTok app, I think they've made a pretty good case, at least to members of Congress and clearly to the Supreme Court, that there is a national security concern here that precipitates this kind of action.

[Jen White]

Stephen, thanks for that call. What are we hearing from opponents of a possible ban, Dina? Because it's not just the 13 and 14 year olds who are scrolling through and watching videos. There are, I forget, roughly 7 million businesses that also rely on TikTok to sell their products. We're talking American businesses, right?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Well, in fact, those American businesses, if TikTok is sold with a 51% say stake to someone who is not mainland Chinese, TikTok's gonna stay. I don't think anybody really wants the TikTok ban. I don't even think. I think the Trump administration has been pretty clear that they don't even want the ban, but they want this national security concern to be addressed. So I think it's almost a misnomer to call it a TikTok ban, because that's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to divest a Chinese majority owner so that there won't be a ban.

[Jen White]

Medina. This is a bit of an about face for President Trump. During his first term, he was not a fan of TikTok. What changed?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

He got a huge TikTok following. I'm sure that was part of the motivation. And also, you know, as you read into this, the things that we have seen happening with TikTok, as I said, this huge number of people who were suddenly calling their senators because TikTok told them to, this is exactly what they're worried about, is that a foreign adversary will be able to motivate people within the United States. That's what we're worried about when it comes to Facebook or some of these other apps that were used during the election. I've got one other kind of telling example too, is days before the ban actually went into effect, TikTok had another pop up. And this pop up suggested that users go to a different Chinese app, one called RedNote or Xiaohongshu, which actually means little red book, like Mao. And many, many, many millions of people did. So if you're worried at all about a foreign adversary being able to motivate your own populace, TikTok has shown us two very stark examples of how they can do that.

[Jen White]

Let's take one more call. We've got Ralph in Delaware. Ralph, thanks for calling. What's on your mind?

[Stephen]

Yes, I'm calling in reference to the point that was made on your show about if 51% of the ownership of the platform was American. The statement was that it assumed that none of the metadata or information would be able to be gotten to by a foreign entity. And I wanted to make a comment on that. Because in the current climate that we're in, we can't assume that being American, that someone might not fall short in that area where the release of some information may happen, because it just seems like just the climate we're in, you know, united as we should be, is not there to combat that assumption that it wouldn't happen because of the American.

[Jen White]

Ralph, thanks for that call. I'll pair that with this message we got from a member of the 1A Text Club, Dina, who says, I'm much more worried about Musk's access to all the information in the possession of the federal government. The Chinese knowing what silly video someone is watching is clearly not a national security concern. And this is something that we've heard from a lot of people, this idea that there are bigger threats to our data being misused, even from within our own government. In your mind, how do we square that concern with the concern around other countries collecting and misusing data?

[Dina Temple Rastin]

Well, theoretically, we have laws that are supposed to stop people from misusing our data. I mean, as much as we're all a little rattled by what's going on by Doge and how much information they're getting, it is in the courts to see if they have actually broken US Privacy and data laws. These are not necessarily laws if you're, you know, sitting in China that really apply to you or you care much about. So the idea is if Ralph, if you actually sell 51% of the platform, then you're subject to US laws that have all kinds of data privacy Foreign.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

That was part of my conversation with Jen White, the host of 1A, a new show from NPR and WAMU. You can hear the full segment with more listener calls and questions. [e-mail] I'm Dena Temple Raston, and we'll be back on Friday with a new episode of Mic Drop. And the person we're talking to is none other than than Frank McCort, one of the people trying to buy TikTok.

[Dina Temple Rastin]

We don't know what China is going to do.

[Fergus Ryan]

We don't know if they're going to.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

Sell us TikTok or just shut it down.

[Fergus Ryan]

But we would be the best buyer.

[Dena Temple Rastin]

And maybe the only viable buyer. We'll see you then.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Looking for more of the cybersecurity and intelligence coverage you get on Click Here, then check out our sister publication, the Record from Recorded Future News. You'll get breaking cyber news from reporters in New York, Washington, London and Kiev, among others. And you'll see for yourself why it attracts hundreds of thousands of page views every month. Just go to the record media.