Who let the Feds out?

Summary

Summary of "Who Let the Feds Out?" Episode of Click Here

Podcast Information:

• Title: Click Here
• Host/Author: Recorded Future News
• Episode: Who Let the Feds Out?
• Release Date: August 8, 2025

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Introduction: The Dawn of Digital Crime Enforcement

The episode opens with Dina Temple-Raston recounting a pivotal moment in the history of digital crime enforcement. In the early spring of 1990, federal agents nationwide launched one of the first significant crackdowns on digital criminals. These operations, known as Operation Sun Devil, targeted hackers involved in credit card fraud and unauthorized theft of dial-up long-distance services.

Gail Thackray, an Arizona prosecutor leading the operation, highlighted the severity of the emerging cybercrime wave:

Gail Thackray [00:58]: "We are experiencing a crime wave in the computer area that is just astronomical. We can't keep up. Nobody who's working in this field can keep up."

This aggressive stance marked the government's initial foray into combating computer-related offenses, setting the stage for future interactions between law enforcement and the hacker community.

Unexpected Alliances: Prosecutor at DEFCON

Three years after Operation Sun Devil, Gail Thackray made an unexpected appearance at DEFCON, a premier hacker conference. Hosted by Jeff Moss, the founder of DEFCON, her presence symbolized a tentative bridge between the underground hacker culture and official law enforcement.

Dina describes the tension surrounding this collaboration:

Dina Temple-Rasten [01:09]: "They called it Operation Sun Devil. And to the government, it was a bold strike on an emerging frontier computer crime. To hackers, it felt like war... So the last thing anyone expected was just three years later, to have Gail the prosecutor appear as a special guest at a hacker conference."

During her presentation, Thackray set clear boundaries to foster a non-hostile environment:

Gail Thackray [03:30]: "Okay? I want to set some ground rules, mostly for your sake. Okay? I am not here to gather information to bust you. And in order to help me not do that, I'm going to ask that you not commit any felonies in front of me. Okay?"

This candid approach aimed to educate hackers about the legal landscape, clarifying ambiguities surrounding computer-related crimes.

Building Trust: Informal Panels and Open Dialogue

Thackray's involvement went beyond her keynote speech. She remained after her talk to engage in informal panels and Q&A sessions, fostering a dialogue that was unprecedented at DEFCON. This initiative helped mitigate misinformation that previously jeopardized many hackers' legal standing.

Gail Thackray [05:14]: "Advice that comes over the board. Many of you have an absolutely abysmal picture of what your rights and your risks are. Because I will tell you, drug dealers get better legal advice than you give each other."

Her efforts laid the foundation for a fragile detente between hackers and law enforcement, lasting nearly two decades and giving rise to DEFCON traditions like Spot the Fed, a playful game where attendees attempted to identify federal agents within the crowd.

The Defcon Keynote Controversy: General Keith Alexander

A significant turning point occurred in 2012 when General Keith Alexander, then-director of the NSA, was invited as the keynote speaker at DEFCON. This appearance marked a dramatic shift in DEFCON's relationship with law enforcement.

Dina Temple-Rasten [07:06]: "In 2012, the keynote speaker at DEFCON wasn't a hacker. It was this guy."

Alexander's casual attire and approachable demeanor were a stark contrast to his high-ranking position:

Jeff Moss [07:32]: "I mean, yeah, I told him you got to wear jeans or something. You can't wear a suit. Like that would not work. Well, like, you've got to, like, at least try to fit in a little bit."

During his speech, Alexander emphasized the importance of collaboration between the hacker community and national security efforts:

General Keith Alexander [08:07]: "This community, better than anyone, understands where this is going and what we need to do to help our nation and our allies fix this... if we had everybody in this room for a few weeks working together on this, we could solve many of those issues."

However, this collaboration faced scrutiny when Edward Snowden revealed the NSA's extensive surveillance operations a year later, contradicting Alexander's assurances.

The Snowden Revelation and Its Aftermath

Snowden's leaks exposed that the NSA had amassed a vast number of surveillance dossiers on Americans, directly contradicting Alexander's earlier statements:

Jeff Moss [09:07]: "It turns out stuff that that was said that they didn't have these dossiers on, on Americans turns out to be false. And now it's like, oh, he lied to us."

This revelation eroded trust, leading DEFCON to request a hiatus from official engagements:

Jeff Moss [10:18]: "We told the feds, you know, don't come, please. Like, take a year off."

Despite this setback, Jeff Moss continued to engage with federal agencies on a personal level, contributing to policy discussions through advisory roles.

Evolution of DEFCON's Policy Track: A New Bridge

Recognizing the need for ongoing dialogue, DEFCON introduced a policy track. This initiative provided a dedicated space for open, honest discussions between hackers and law enforcement officials away from the public eye.

Jeff Moss [13:05]: "If you don't have a seat at the table and decisions are being made, the decision might be made against you because you can't represent yourself."

This policy track fostered mutual understanding and cooperation, ensuring that both communities could influence cybersecurity policies effectively.

Conclusion: Bridging the Digital Divide

The episode concludes by reflecting on the transformative journey of DEFCON and its founder, Jeff Moss. From being a target of federal crackdowns to becoming a pivotal platform for collaboration, DEFCON exemplifies the potential for dialogue between disparate groups in the digital age.

Dina Temple-Rasten [13:29]: "It's a long way from bulletin boards and burner phones, from being chased to being invited. The story of DEFCON and Jeff Moss isn't just about hackers crashing the gates. It's about what happens when the gatekeepers invite people in to keep the digital world from breaking our analog one."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Gail Thackray [00:58]: "We are experiencing a crime wave in the computer area that is just astronomical. We can't keep up. Nobody who's working in this field can keep up."

• Gail Thackray [03:30]: "I am not here to gather information to bust you... I am going to ask that you not commit any felonies in front of me."

• Gail Thackray [05:14]: "Many of you have an absolutely abysmal picture of what your rights and your risks are..."

• General Keith Alexander [08:07]: "This community... understands where this is going and what we need to do to help our nation and our allies fix this."

• Jeff Moss [09:07]: "It turns out stuff that that was said that they didn't have these dossiers on, on Americans turns out to be false."

• Jeff Moss [13:05]: "If you don't have a seat at the table and decisions are being made, the decision might be made against you..."

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Final Thoughts

"Who Let the Feds Out?" delves deep into the intricate dance between hackers and law enforcement, highlighting moments of conflict, collaboration, and cautious trust. Through interviews and firsthand accounts, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of how DEFCON has navigated its unique position in the cybersecurity landscape, striving to balance the interests of both the underground and the authorities.

Transcript

[Dina Temple Rasten]

From Recorded Future News and prx, this is Click Here. It was an early spring morning, and federal agents and windbreakers had fanned out across the country. In a dozen different cities. They busted down doors, seized computers, and began yanking cords from the walls. It was 1990. One of the first major crackdowns on digital crime in the US Was in the process of unfolding. Agents were rolling up hackers for credit card fraud and for stealing dial up long distance. Arizona prosecutor Gail Thackry announced the law enforcement action at a major press conference.

[Gail Thackray]

We are experiencing a crime wave in the computer area that is just astronomical. We can't keep up. Nobody who's working in this field can keep up.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

They called it Operation Sun Devil. And to the government, it was a bold strike on an emerging frontier computer crime. To hackers, it felt like war. Not just on bulletin boards and modems, but on their very identity, their culture, their way of life. So the last thing anyone expected was just three years later, to have Gail the prosecutor appear as a special guest at a hacker conference.

[Jeff Moss]

We invited her to speak at the very first DEFCON and tell us about how does computer crime prosecutions actually work?

[Dina Temple Rasten]

I'm Dena Temple Rasten, and this is Click. Here's Mic Drop. A longer listen to one of our favorite interviews of the week. On Tuesday, we talked with Jeff Moss, the founder of defcon, about a hacker party in Vegas that became a global stage for cyber policy. Today we focus on defcon's unexpected and uneasy dance with law enforcement and how it's changed everything about the way we think about crime, power, and trust in the digital age. Stay with us.

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[Dina Temple Rasten]

I'm Dina Templewost, and this is click here's mic drop. In 1993, when Jeff Moss was planning the hacker meetup that would eventually become defcon, inviting prosecutor Gayle Thackry was counterintuitive, to say the least. She'd helped shutter bulletin board systems, seized computers, and led investigations into hacker crimes. And now here she was, standing in front of the very People she'd once targeted.

[Gail Thackray]

Okay? I want to set some ground rules, mostly for your sake. Okay? I am not here to gather information to bust you. And in order to help me not do that, I'm going to ask that you not commit any felonies in front of me. Okay?

[Dina Temple Rasten]

It could have backfired, and for a moment, it almost did.

[Jeff Moss]

When she was giving a talk, somebody she was prosecuting from, that is, in the audience, which led to some awkward awkwardness.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

But Gail wasn't there to make arrest. She was there to help hackers understand the law.

[Gail Thackray]

I think some of you really do want some guidance as to where society is drawing rules that can get you in trouble. And I'll be happy to share what I know with you.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

Because computers, and by extension computer related crimes, were still so new, both hackers and law enforcement were still working out what was legal and what was not. And that confusion led to a lot of misinformation, Misinformation that could get hackers in trouble.

[Jeff Moss]

You've got to put this disclaimer on the front page of your bulletin board that says no law enforcement allowed to log in. And if they do, that's entrapment. And then you're safe. I said, that doesn't make sense to me. Like, how can anybody like the Mafia just puts out on the door to their secret Mafia headquarters and no undercover police can come in? Like, that doesn't seem like it's. Oh, no, that's totally how it works.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

He tried to dissuade hacker buddies about these things, but they wouldn't listen. So he asked Gail to settle it first thing.

[Jeff Moss]

She's like, nope, doesn't work. You know, it's like, yes, I told you. But because she's the one saying it.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

And she didn't hold back the legal.

[Gail Thackray]

Advice that comes over the board. Many of you have an absolutely abysmal picture of what your rights and your risks are. Because I will tell you, drug dealers get better legal advice than you give each other.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

After the talk, she stuck around, held informal panels, took questions. And it all helped set the tone for Defcon 1, where the underground and the officialdom could meet, if not as friends, then at least face to face.

[Jeff Moss]

I'd love to say that there was a master plan of mine. Like, I wasn't thinking that this would lead to this more collegial interaction between the different worlds of hackers and law enforcement and intelligence, but it did.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

That fragile detente would hold for nearly two decades. It even gave rise to a DEFCON tradition, a game called Spot the Fed, in which attendees would try to identify, just by looking who in the crowd was likely working for the federal government. It was all in good fun until one keynote that went terribly awry. That's after the break. Stay with us.

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[Dina Temple Rasten]

In 2012, the keynote speaker at DEFCON wasn't a hacker. It was this guy.

[Jeff Moss]

I'd like to give you a. Have you give a warm welcome to General Alexander.

[General Keith Alexander]

Thanks, General.

[Gail Thackray]

Yet.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

General Keith Alexander, director of the nsa, wearing jeans and a black T shirt. First of all, him in a black T shirt.

[Jeff Moss]

I mean, yeah, I told him you got to wear jeans or something. You can't wear a suit. Like that would not work. Well, like, you've got to, like, at least try to fit in a little bit.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

Did you. You invited him or how did it work?

[Jeff Moss]

Do you remember? No, I think somebody from the NSA reached out and said they were interested. And I was like, are you sure about this? Like, this is a pretty big risk because if it goes sideways, you know it's going to look really bad for you and for me.

[General Keith Alexander]

You understand what's going on?

[Dina Temple Rasten]

On stage, Alexander struck a friendly tone.

[General Keith Alexander]

This community, better than anyone, understands where this is going and what we need to do to help our nation and our allies fix this. We can sit on the sidelines and let others who don't understand this space tell us what they're going to do, or we can help by educating and informing them on the best strategy forward that benefits all of us and our nation. And that's the real reason that I came here to solicit your support, because from my perspective, if we had everybody in this room for a few weeks working together on this, we could solve many of those issues.

[Jeff Moss]

And then they kind of used it to, like, try to recruit people from our community to help out, help the country.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

How do you feel about that?

[Jeff Moss]

It's kind of flattering that they thought that we would have something, and if you don't like it, don't respond to it.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

And then Jeff asked a question.

[Jeff Moss]

So does the NSA really keep a file on everyone? And if so, how can I see mine? Because I'm really curious to see what's in it.

[General Keith Alexander]

Those who would want to weave the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is absolutely false.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

Except. Well, it wasn't. Not exactly. Because just a year later, as you'll probably remember, an NSA contractor named Edward Snowden released classified documents that suggested the NSA had a massive surveillance operation, and it included Americans.

[Jeff Moss]

It turns out stuff that that was said that they didn't have these dossiers on, on Americans turns out to be false. And now it's like, oh, he lied to us. Like, at our show, lied to us. We can't have him back. You know what I mean? Like, you burn that bridge. And people were not just that, but the civil liberty. And a lot of people were really upset.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

So that year, DEFCON made a request.

[Jeff Moss]

We told the feds, you know, don't come, please. Like, take a year off. And that caused a whole vortex of, yeah, like, we just, like, we need a cooling off period. I know undercover feds still attended, but it was not. Not in the public.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

But Jeff did still engage with the feds, just on a more personal level. He was on an advisory council for the Secretary of Homeland Security on cyber issues. And it turned out DHS found it helpful to hear from someone who was removed from government, who not only understood the issues, but was a hacker himself. Like, at one point, he raised something that had been bothering him for a while.

[Jeff Moss]

I was talking to someone there, and they were just starting to get more engaged in cyber. And I said, how come we don't ever name our adversaries? Like, we never named China. Like, why don't we name the people attacking us? All the companies know it's China. That's not a secret, right? We know it's China. They know it's China. They know that we know. Like, this whole thing's going on, but the government never says it's China.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

He thought maybe there was some national security reason they didn't do it, maybe some diplomatic reason.

[Jeff Moss]

And they said, hmm, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. No, there's no real. There's no real reason.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

Six months later, everything changed. The Obama administration did something no US Government had done before. They called China out publicly, accusing its military of launching cyber attacks on American political targets. In the summer of 2008, the FBI discovered that both the Obama and McCain campaign computers were under sustained attack.

[Jeff Moss]

This was political cyber espionage by the Chinese government against the two American political parties.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

In that moment, when the US Pointed a finger and hackers raised their voices, something else started to shift. This wasn't just about pushing the government away anymore. It was about proving hackers had something to offer if anyone was willing to listen.

[Jeff Moss]

And that was also the beginning of this idea, sort of that, you know, technology and hacking is political or has political consequences. So we should probably try to participate in more of these venues. And over time, that gained currency.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

A few years later, DEFCON launched something new, a policy track. It was part salon, part detente. A geekwonk bridge where both sides, hackers and the feds who chased them could talk policy not just in hallway whispers, but in rooms designed for candor. Off the record, on the level. And to some surprise, hackers actually showed up.

[Jeff Moss]

If you don't have a seat at the table and decisions are being made, the decision might be made against you because you can't represent yourself. It wasn't like you're a sellout for talking to the man. It became like, good thing somebody's talking.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

To the man, because a man doesn't understand without us.

[Jeff Moss]

Right? Right. We really need to have our seat at the table before they make weird, misinformed decisions. Right? And that's why we really started.

[Dina Temple Rasten]

It's a long way from bulletin boards and burner phones, from being chased to being invited. The story of DEFCON and Jeff Moss isn't just about hackers crashing the gates. It's about what happens when the gatekeepers invite people in to keep the digital world from breaking our analog one. From recorded future news, this has been Click Here's Mic Drop. It was written and produced by Megan Dietry, Sean Powers, Erica Gaeda, Zach Hirsch, Lucas Riley, and me, Dina Temple Raster. It was edited by Karen Duffin. We'll be back on Tuesday with an all new episode of Click Here Here. Have a great weekend.

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