Heidi White (2:17)

I'm Heidi White.

David Kern (2:20)

And that brief, deafening silence is the absence of Tim McIntosh here on close Reads.

Heidi White (2:25)

It's a loud absence.

David Kern (2:27)

This is Close Reads. It's a podcast for the incurable reader. And in this episode we are going to Be starting our conversation about Death on the Nile, Agatha Christie's great novel. One of her best, I think. And I want to talk about the Agatha Christie canon here in a second, but we need to talk about Tim's absence. Heidi, Tim couldn't be here.

Heidi White (2:47)

Do we though?

David Kern (2:48)

He couldn't join us? You know, the thing is, I have

Heidi White (2:51)

so much rage about it.

David Kern (2:52)

He maybe could have, he chose not to. Or am I throwing? Is that too strong, too strongly put?

Heidi White (2:59)

No, I think that that was, I think that that's just accuracy that you're going for. Just honesty, which is a virtue. Yeah. He back from vacation and he's like, oh, I'm jet lagged. Aruba, I've been in Aruba.

David Kern (3:12)

He thought he was gonna get away with not being on an episode, but then you and I had to postpone our regular recording time and then he was like, I gotta travel, I gotta work meetings, I got stuff to catch up on. And here we are, 11 o' clock Eastern Time on Friday night recording. And I feel like maybe he could have made it. I agree, you're not wrong, but we love Tim. We're not actually throwing him under the bus. We very much appreciate that he got

Heidi White (3:37)

a chance to only gossip about people.

David Kern (3:42)

We, we, we are glad that he got a chance to go to Aruba and we're probably going to get some great stories out of it, if his last trip to Aruba is any indication.

Heidi White (3:52)

Yeah. If anybody, any of us listeners ever have an opportunity to sit down and have a cocktail or a glass of wine or some, I don't know, cup of tea with Tim, definitely ask him about his first trip to Aruba and you'll hear some stories or you could

David Kern (4:09)

potentially come to say a Close Reads retreat and you could hear the tale, the many tales, the myriad tales that he has about his vacations and all kinds of other things. Interesting guy. Let's just say that lots of stories, which of course I want to just mention.

Heidi White (4:24)

Tales of Aruba nights.

David Kern (4:25)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Sounds like there's like a satire in there somewhere that needs to be written. But you know, that does bring us to the Close Reads retreat because on Monday at 1pm Registration is going to open for the 2022 Close Reads Retreat. It's going to be on Brideshead Revisited and the Bright Young Things, which was the group of writers that Evelyn Waugh was part of. He coined the name Bright Young Things. So each day we're going to be discussing Bright side Revisited, but then we're also going to be discussing some of the poets that were part of that circle that kind of helped inform WA's work and that era. And we're going to talk about all the ways that that book, which is really about the way that faith and tradition kind of brushed up, crashed into the romance and glamour of the modern age and the way the dissonances and conflicts and choices that come out of that smashing together. So it's a great book because. Well, on its own merit, but it's also a great book for this time that we're living in right now. So that's one of the reasons why we wanted to discuss it. And Heidi, we know this is one of your favorite books.

Heidi White (5:35)

So it's my favorite novel in the land. Like of all the lands, this is my favorite. This is my favorite novel. This Bright side Revisited is. And it is a source of great agony to my soul that I've never been able to discuss it with close range people officially. So this is going to right so many wrongs. This is just a remedy. This is the world coming. The cosmos is being put to rights here. Please join us.

David Kern (6:07)

Yeah, it's going to be a great time. We, of course, we only have 20 rooms available. 20, 20 sleeping rooms available. So it's 20 spots barring people sharing rooms or bringing a spouse or something. So we have very limited space. We're going to see how this one goes. It's possible, you know, if there's enough demand, maybe we'll do another event at some point. Maybe we'll do a long weekend event. We have lots of ideas, things that we want to do. But this first event is going to be going. Registration is going to be going up on Monday. So that's going to be Monday the 9th. Join us. Can't wait for that. Okay. But we of course are here to discuss Death in the Nile. We're going to discuss the beginning of it. Before we do that, though, Heidi, I want to tell you about a program that's sponsoring the podcast this month. Would you like, would you like to hear about this?

Heidi White (6:54)

Please do. I really do. I'm all ears.

David Kern (6:57)

So this is, Dazzle Me, the Signum Academy. So, Heidi, I want to ask you a question. Do you love books, languages, or creative writing?

Heidi White (7:04)

Yes, all three.

David Kern (7:06)

Well, then, Signum Academy's Clubs, something is

Heidi White (7:10)

about to be for me.

David Kern (7:12)

Well, the Signum Academy's Clubs program offers low stress, live online sessions where you can discuss your favorite books, participate in creative writing workshops and learn awesome languages like Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Latin, Greek, Old English, and wow, even Old Norse. So you can attend your club's sessions from anywhere, such as maybe in your dining room or living room in Colorado or maybe maybe in Aruba. And you will get to connect with other students from around the world under the guidance of passionate teachers who love this stuff as much as you do. It's perfect either as an extracurricular activity or as a supplement to a homeschool curriculum. And unfortunately, Heidi, the club's program is available for students 8 to 18. But let's say you were to enroll one of your kids, you could still, you know, you know, like watch over a shoulder. You could check out recordings, things like that.

Heidi White (7:59)

I could just sit in the same room and see what happens.

David Kern (8:02)

Right, exactly. But as an enthusiast, you probably also would like your kids to be. To be able to be exposed to the things that you're enthusiastic about. And sometimes, sometimes it's not always going to come from the parents. Enthusiasm can be a little overbearing sometimes when it's a parent, you know, so why not, why not let it be done through some great, enthusiastic, expert teachers? If you want to learn more, you can head over to signumuniversity.org academy. So that's S I G N U M university.org academy. And if you want to get in touch and ask some questions, you can head over to your email and you can email them@academyignamu.org so again, that's s I g n u m u.org so it's a cool program. We're honored that they contacted us to. To want to promote what they're doing on the podcast. Yeah, there are a lot of great options out there, and this is definitely one that you should consider this spring semester for your. For your family. Okay, Heidi. Death on the Nile.

Heidi White (9:04)

Yay.

David Kern (9:05)

We're here to discuss Death on the Nile. We talked about. We're going to be talking about the first nine chapters. So depending on the edition you have, it's either like part one, which is divided up into chapters, or it turns out that there's some weird stuff going on with how they divided up this book because in some editions it has a part one where it's just doing that introduction to the characters, you know, characters in order of appearance, and then it switches over to part two, and that's called Egypt, and that's the story proper. So the first part is almost like a prologue. I don't know what your edition has as far as that goes, because then I saw some additions. Chapter one.

Heidi White (9:41)

Yeah.

David Kern (9:42)

Yeah. Chapter one is just divided into 11 parts. I think so either way, we're going to go up through chapter nine, which is there on the boat, and the sort of central conflict of the story has been revealed, although the crime has not yet been committed. So we're about 115 pages into the book and we still don't have a murder. We have lots of.

Heidi White (10:05)

It's a late murder for Agatha Christie.

David Kern (10:07)

It is. It's a late murder. We should somehow incorporate that into the title of this episode. Okay. I want to talk about Christy more generally though, because you are a huge Agatha Christie fan. We've talked about this. I'm a huge fan too. But what are your favorite Agatha Christie books? Where does this book, prior to this reading, say, fall into the official Heidi White Agatha Christie cannon top list? I don't know how many books she wrote. Is it like top five for you?

Heidi White (10:37)

The and Isle is in my top five. Yeah, for sure. It's a good puzzle. It's psychologically compelling. It's got great characters, location. Hercule Poirot, my favorite of her detectives. Like, it's, it's, it has all the ingredients and it's a classic. It's one of the books that makes her, you know, the queen of crime. How about you, Damon?

David Kern (11:01)

Oh, it's definitely top five. Probably three. Depends on the day. You ask me, I think my all time favorite at this moment is the ABC Murders.

Heidi White (11:13)

Oh, that's a great one.

David Kern (11:15)

But I love this one. This is probably my. Some days it's my second favorite, some days it's my third because I do. Poirot usually pushes it over the top for me, but I do love it. And then there were none. Just for the moodiness of it.

Heidi White (11:28)

Creepy.

David Kern (11:29)

Yeah, I love the kind of darkness of it, but it doesn't have Poirot.

Heidi White (11:31)

He's 15 and he's just getting into Agatha Christie. He's just, he read Roger Ackroyd and Peril at End House and now he's going to. He just started today, Death on the Nile. He doesn't actually listen to the podcast because, you know, as a wise person once said, parental enthusiasm can be overbearing. Yeah, but I won't take them to see the movie unless they read the books. That's just like a general rule of thumb in life. So they want to go see the movie with me, then they have. They both my 12 year old and my 15 year old have to read the book. So Jack just started it today. Have you so curious what he's going to think about it too.

David Kern (12:15)

Have you considered saying that if they want to go to the movie. They have to listen to the podcast.

Heidi White (12:19)

I've not considered it till this moment, but I am going to start considering it. Maybe I'll give him.

David Kern (12:25)

You should just. You should remind him that his friends Tim and David are also on the podcast. And it's not just his mom's enthusiasm.

Heidi White (12:31)

Seriously. So thank you.

David Kern (12:33)

Yeah, thank you.

Heidi White (12:34)

I appreciate that. I want you to remind him that. Come on, Jack, toss that little message on.

David Kern (12:38)

Yeah. Do you need to pause the episode so you can go do that?

Heidi White (12:41)

Yeah. Well, he's at a basketball game. He does read the books that you recommend. I will say that If I say Mr. David Kern recommends this book, he will read it. And then he says, can I please call him David? And then I'm like, not.

David Kern (12:59)

So you can buy a lottery.

Heidi White (13:01)

Right?

David Kern (13:01)

Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, this one's real high for me, too. And I was thinking while I was reading about. In some ways, it feels a little different. One of the reasons is because we have a late murder. It doesn't take place in England, which, you know, most of her books take place in the English countryside or in some estate or at least like in some village, you know, in the outskirts of London. So this is. It's international. It has a late murder, but it does do something that a lot of Christie's do, where we've got a bunch of different characters, we've got great mood, we've got, you know, Poirot being clever, all those sorts of things that we're used to. So it got me thinking, like, those are some things that she does well. But as this book shows, she also does have some range in terms of escaping some of the typical things that she does. But when we look at Agatha Christie more generally, like, why has she endured so well? Like, she is sold. I think it's like the Bible and Shakespeare and then Agatha Christie. Right. Something. Some crazy statistic like that. So in your mind, why has she been so enduring? Why in 100 years after she started writing her stories, do people still. I mean, I look in the bookstore and I sell just a ton of Christine. Like, I'm constantly reordering it. So why in 2022, are we still reading? What has caused her to endure? Why is she so memorable?

Heidi White (14:24)

Yeah, I mean, I think that's such a great question. So genre fiction is generally not known all the time for great literary value. And when you actually find an author who can write genre fiction with stock characters and archetypes, as Christie does, although you could make the case and maybe you're preparing to. That she kind of started it. All right. Like, a lot of the tropes and the stock characters that we recognize in classic detective fiction were invented by Agatha Christie, but now we just think of them as stock. Right?

David Kern (15:04)

Yeah. Or at least perfected for a. For a mass audience.

Heidi White (15:10)

Exactly.

David Kern (15:11)

The ones she didn't invent.

Heidi White (15:13)

Yeah. No, that's true. So I think some of it is. Is the fact that her books have some literary value, although she's not the greatest author in the world. And there's plenty of times I'm reading it like an editor and saying, I wish she wouldn't have said this or whatever, but it is genre fiction and she gets forgiven a lot because she's Agatha Christie. And I also think just the puzzles that she comes up with are so fun. And she does a really. It's really hard to write detective. Have you ever tried to write a mystery, David? You seem like the kind of person

David Kern (15:46)

who would not like this, where I have to, like, try to trick the audience, but then also have someone solve it. I've never done anything quite like this. I always think I want to, but then feel like I don't have the.

Heidi White (16:01)

It's hard.

David Kern (16:01)

What's the thing that I'm going to. I never have.

Heidi White (16:04)

Like, I feel like it would be so hard. So I reread Agatha Christie, which people think is crazy because. But I don't lose my love for it on rereading, which once you know how a plot ends, especially a plot like this, like these that we're reading here, you'd think it wouldn't be interesting to read it again. But it's actually fascinating because you catch all these little clues. You know, the murder is. And you. You get to the end and there's, you know, the big reveal and. And then you go back and read it and put it together on the back and it'. Satisfying. And not all detective fiction is like that sometimes. And I don't know whether there's something magical about her. And I love. And I don't think this is unique to me, but it's also not going to be surprising about me. I love the psychological depth of her characters and how so much of the motive and that. I just love how all of her stock characters actually have humanity to them in that way. She is like Shakespeare, because Shakespeare is full of stock characters and archetypes as well, but they are so compelling and human.

David Kern (17:10)

That's a good point.

Heidi White (17:10)

And Agatha Christie's are as well. And so it's rare that you that you. That you end an Agatha Christie novel without caring what happens to the side characters who weren't actually the murderer. And she does a great job of making you care and adding some psychological depth and subtlety to all of her characters. And then Poirot is just so delightful. And they're also really funny. All of them are just funny. Like, they have these, like, British humor, this dry British humor, and lots of satire. She has a lot of, like, mockery of herself. Like, even in this book, she talks about how nobody likes to read detective fiction. You know, like, there's things that, upon rewind, actually add depth to it. It's not just about the plot and the puzzle, although those are always, I think, really, really compelling as well. Especially, I mean, there's just a few. Roger Ackroyd, you know, Ordeal by Innocence. There's a few that just are like the puzzles. Oh, ABC Murder. That just. The puzzle's so good that you get to the end and you're like, oh, that was just like, so satisfying to read.

David Kern (18:11)

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because you met. You mentioned Jack's reading Acroyd, and I went back and tried and was going to. Started rereading that recently. And I found that knowing the big reveal in that one, I had a much harder time rereading it. Like, that one wasn't holding up as well, knowing that as much as other ones were. And I couldn't figure out why. I couldn't figure out if. I just wasn't in the mood for it like I wanted. And maybe I was just in the mood to not know, so I wanted to go read something else.

Heidi White (18:39)

Yeah, maybe.

David Kern (18:40)

But like, you know, Death in the Nile, abc, a couple of the other ones, there's like a. And then there were None. There's a tone and a mood. Like, to me, that sort of the best crime novels, the best mystery novels, the best spy novels. There's the puzzle, there's the plot, there's the adventure, there's the whodunit. All those things that we read for. But I want to go back to them and I think about them and they stick in my head because of that. Because of the mood and the like that, you know, like I mentioned on the end of the year episode how much I liked who is Maud Dixon? Which is not, like, it's not a. It's not, I don't think in 200 years where people are talking about that book. Right. Yeah, but there's a. There's a tone and a mood to that. Like, I don't even care the unfolding of the plot. It was that I so enjoyed being in the, like, bleak. The bleak Venus of the whole thing. Like, she did such a. In part of it. Like, I was kind of in awe of her ability to capture that mood, build on it as it goes. And then at the end of the book, that mood stay with you. That's what I. That's what I liked that book. And Christy is really good at that too. And I think so many people since then, you know, I think she's borrowing from a long line of 19th century writers like Hawthorne, Washington Irving, Poe, several other writers who were kind of the first people to really introduce mood to story writing in a way that hadn't really been done the same way. Like that bleak, just short of nihilistic tone that's underneath these stories. And I think she took that, applied an early 20th century British sensibility to that, but then made it feel universal in a way that, like, no matter if you live. If you lived in South Carolina in 1942, you still wanted to read it.

Heidi White (20:33)

Oh, yeah.

David Kern (20:35)

I think the way that she uses tone, like just that mood, whatever word you want to use keeps you reading and rereading and keeps you, like, super engaged. And even if you kind of remember the details of the plot, you can reread it again. Because even if you know who actually did it, the way you get to it and the way, like, the fear that the characters are in and the way that the things that they're thinking and the way that they're playing each other and like the way she shows Egypt and describes the boat and all that kind of stuff is so like, she had a real gift for that kind of stuff. And that's what I think, really, for me, makes me return to her over and over again. And it's why, when I want something, that's to get me back in the habit of reading or, you know, get me turning pages again or make me feel good about reading, because maybe I've been reading just like a lot of really long philosophical books or whatever or something Russian. Sometimes you just need to read something quick. And. And it's not just the plot that we go that we go for, right? It's the whole experience of reading. And she's able to read to, like, again and again in almost every book, give us the reading experience from COVID to cover. And it's in a way that's not just about solving the puzz, getting to the end to know what happens. Like, we. She's so fun to Read. Because while the plot matters, while the puzzle matters, the process is the. Is the joy. And that's not true of everybody. Like, I, you know, I don't even know that that's true to very many mystery writers at all, to be honest.

Heidi White (22:04)

Right. Yeah. I mean, Christie's maybe the only one for me, but, I mean, I cut my teeth on reading. Like, I became a reader reading Agatha Christie and P.G. wodehouse and Lucy Maud Montgomery. And so I'm used to it. I love the tone. She's a master of the ellipses, which is kind of a rare punctuation mark to become a master of. And I think she owns it.

David Kern (22:29)

Don't try it. So.

Heidi White (22:30)

Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, it's. She's great at that. So I think she's fantastic. And there is this. One of the things that I love, especially about Poirot, is there's this. He's so cosmopolitan. And, you know, she hated him. Like, she did not like him at all, which is funny to me because I love him. He has this incredible, like, strong moral center. And I think Death on the Nile is one of the books that shows that the most. And he's like that in all of his stories. He has this very compelling humanism that has his own rules to it. And. And I feel he's a code. I feel like it's probably not too strong to say, yeah, like he has an honor code and a moral code. He does not approve of murder. Right. That. And he has this. This like very deep and abiding, enduring, consistent human humanism that goes through all of his books and this strong morality. And it's not too hard to say that I absorbed that because I was such a young reader when I began to read that. A lot of, I find kind of like repeating, making excuses for this, but like being hard on this other sin or whatever. And I'm like, that's a. Poirot. There is a moral center to these novels. There is a strong sense of justice and humanity, which. But they're not morality tales. It's not heavy handed. It's just fun and genre fiction. But there is kind of this. This sense of justice that, that we as moral readers can put our weight down on when reading it, which is kind of nice. And I think that, that, that's not always true of contemporary detective fiction. That kind of plays with different, you know, different ideas of justice. And it's like, what about this? You know, because that's what detective fiction is all about, right? Justice. And so there's some Some detective fiction has kind of a slippery internal morality to it. But not Christie, which I like. That's a comforting to me.

David Kern (24:38)

But it doesn't not introduce the potentiality for slippery morality.

Heidi White (24:45)

I mean, this one, even in the first nine chapters, is very complex morally.

David Kern (24:49)

Yeah, yeah, stop.

Heidi White (24:50)

Characters notwithstanding, it's a simple plot, but it is. You're taking sides as you're reading it, right? It asks you, the book does. It's like, whose side are you on here?

David Kern (25:01)

And even as he's trying to figure out what he thinks of things, and the astute reader is noticing little things here and there about his observations, right? Like she uses Poirot's POV and his own. And as with any great mystery writer, the, the observational skills of the detective to reveal what the reader needs to know. So if you're paying, like, that's why mystery writing is reading. Reading mystery writing is an exercise in paying attention, which is why it's great. Everybody should read mystery writing for that reason. Everybody should read crime fiction and mystery writing and spy read like it's, yes, it's genre, yes, it can be a little bit of popcorn or whatever, but it helps you be a better reader. Like, I think that's why so many great writers and so many, like scholars over the years, Russell Kirk, for example, love mystery writing. And I think that's, that's a big part of why. Like, it's asking questions about morality, but it's also an exercise in being a good reader, right? To read a mystery. To read a mystery, well, you have to do so many of the things that you have to do well to read anything.

Heidi White (26:08)

Well, okay, this, right. So when you're reading, you probably have questions to ask, but I'm going to slip in a question here. What you just said so important, and I, it started me on this train of thought. I love it. I, like really love that. David. Okay, so what do you pay attention to when you're reading Agatha Christie? I know you're probably trained by her and by your, you know, by who you are as a reader to pay attention to all kinds of things. But what are you most naturally drawn to when you're reading a detective novel, specifically Agatha Christie? What are you most paying attention to?

David Kern (26:45)

I'm paying attention to when Poirot is asking a question of something, not asking a question of a person, but when he's asking a question to himself. So he is, there's something he is trying to decipher, something it seems like, or he's beginning, he's making an Observation and saying, what does this mean? We don't even have a crime yet. But already he's suspicious because he's saying, this seems strange. Right. And that's one of the things I love about this book. We're being introduced to the crime before the crime ever happens, because we're being introduced to the possibility of the crime. And that's all, through Poirot, his own suspicions. So when your detective is suspicious of something or asking a question, that's. That's an obvious one. Like, they're. And the one. And when it says that the detective is paying attention to something, I mean, it's asking us to pay attention to it. Like, it's very simple, honestly.

Heidi White (27:33)

Are you. Are you paying attention? I mean, I'm asking this because of what you just said about paying attention and also thinking about conversations I just had with Jack as he just read Roger Ackroyd and would come out. Why are we. Why is Poirot asking about the boots? And, you know, like, he's. He's trying to figure out the puzzle, which. I don't read detective fiction like that. I am paying attention to the characters always. And that's just how I am as a reader. Always. What's motivating this person and what's the conflict?

David Kern (28:03)

Who are these?

Heidi White (28:04)

Yes.

David Kern (28:05)

Yeah.

Heidi White (28:05)

Yes. Like, in this, I am interested in the love triangle. I'm wanting to know what's going on with Rosalie and her mother. I'm very curious about Tim Allerton. Right. There's. There's all these characters that are being.

David Kern (28:16)

Macintosh.

Heidi White (28:18)

Well, always. Right. He is a puzzle. That's a mystery novel in itself.

David Kern (28:22)

So that is.

Heidi White (28:24)

Right. Thank you. So I'm not trying to find clues necessarily. Like, I'll notice something, as you said. Like, I'll be like, ooh, whatever this is. Why did she freak? Why did Lynette freak out about this letter? That seems significant, but I'm not, like, trying to put it together into the puzzle. So are you trying to solve the crime as you read a detective story, or do you. Looking at the writing and how knowing that this another, like, how the author is piecing it together.

David Kern (28:56)

I'm weird. Like, I don't care about solving it. I like the process. I like to read. I like to watch for how the author is revealing it. Like, because I'm. Because I'm kind of, like, in awe of when it comes off and it feels easy. Like when. When a writer like Agatha Christie can do this over and over again. And, yes, there is a bit of formula to it. But to be able to take the formula, to be able to take the strategies and make them feel like they didn't take them any work at all, I'm just impressed by that. You know, when I get confused at the end, it's. It's like that Anchorman line. I'm not even mad. I'm just impressed. You know, it's. I don't know if we've ever referenced Anchorman on the show, but, you know, like. So I don't spend a lot of time trying to solve the crime. Although I do enjoy when the puzzle is revealed, like, the catharsis of that. I'm interested in, like, the way the author pulls that off and, like, draws us into it and creates the tone and the mood and reveals the characters. And then I'm interested in, like, what are the. I'm kind of always looking to see, like, what are the. What are the deeper things that the author was thinking about when they were creating the story? By which I don't mean what moral point is the author trying to make? But when an author is writing a book, there's something in their subconscious at least that sort of comes out. So I'm always kind of curious, like, what was going on in Christy's mind when she was putting this particular mystery together, when she was revealing this particular crime? So those are the kind of things that I like. What about you?

Heidi White (30:28)

Yeah, same. I mean, characters. Like I said, I'm not necessarily trying to solve the puzzle. I kind of let the puzzle wash over me as I'm reading a detective story. But other Jack is, like, trying to solve the puzzle. You know, like, there's this clue, and he, like, makes a list of the clues, and he's, like, trying to figure it out, because that's what's pleasurable and fun to him about it. Like, he reads when he, like, plays a he. Well, I'm not totally sure, but I'm thinking right now like, a six with a five wing. But that. Yeah, like, that is like, he reads. He reads these novels the same way he plays, like, a strategy game.

David Kern (31:06)

Yeah.

Heidi White (31:07)

And I don't read like that, but he loves it just as much as I do, just for different reason, which I think is what's so compelling about these stories. Like, I've started reading it like a writer more as I. Now that I know. Now I know the ends, even this book, I'm thinking, I remember having a conversation with George Saunders, which is, like, a statement I really like to make in life. One time I was talking to George

David Kern (31:35)

Saunders Heidi, I've interviewed a lot of people and I'm still jealous about that one.

Heidi White (31:43)

Yeah, I mean, I actually haven't interviewed a lot of people, which is why this is like, peak glory day for me. So anyway, I remember him saying. I don't. Him telling me, like, I don't necessarily think about themes at all when I'm writing a story. I'm just thinking about technical problems and how to solve them. And so if I'm, you know, writing a story, then I get to a point in which I need in the story to solve a technical problem, and then I do, and that ends up creating kind of a theme or a mood or a tone, like you said. But he's like, I'm not doing that on purpose. I'm just trying to solve this problem. And I can see that quite a bit, even in reading Death in the Nile over again this time. I've read it several times. This, like, I can see now, you know, you and I, we know how it ends, right? And we're not going to give anything away. Don't worry, listeners. But I can see kind of a scene when someone who's not the murderer kind of. Creating. Yep, yeah, exactly. Creating.

David Kern (32:45)

He's. He's her father.

Heidi White (32:48)

Yeah, it's the goldfish. Like, I can see her kind of creating suspicion and. And the red herring, right. And I can. It's like I can see her at her typewriter or whatever with her pencil being like, how do I get people to be suspicious of this person but also drop a clue over here and, you know, tie off this loose end so that when the reveal comes, I didn't cheat, you know, those kinds of things. Like, I see it as more in. More technical sense and those. In that way, I just think. And that way I think, man, she's like a master. She does that every single time in every scene.

David Kern (33:25)

But it looks so easy, right? It feels like it's just like a

Heidi White (33:29)

clause in the middle.

David Kern (33:30)

It feels like she didn't put any work into it.

Heidi White (33:33)

Right.

David Kern (33:35)

Effortless. That's what it feels like. Hey. So, okay, at the beginning of this book, we get that section where it seems like there's, as I said, a bunch of different ways this is presented in terms of structure. But we get the. I'm just gonna call it a prologue where we get the characters revealed. You know, like, we get a little page or two on each of the different characters revealed in order of appearance before we get to the actual sort of plot. And I'll just call that. Yeah, I'll Just call that the prologue. Why do you think she does that? Because I was thinking about how it feels like Shakespeare or something, right? Like, there's like a chorus or, you know, how at the beginning of the plays is character. Sometimes you'll get, like, characters in order of appearance, right? There's just a list of the characters, and it makes it. We have this big cast almost in this book, 12 characters that mean plus all these side characters. And keeping track of them all is difficult. So is it just that she's trying to say, okay, here's your 12 people. Get to know them, get used to them. Here's a little bit about each of them. Here's how they factor into the story. And she's trying to just sort of keep us from getting too lost. Or do you think there's something, like, more to that? And that is not a leading question.

Heidi White (34:50)

Oh, yeah, there's definitely something more to that, for sure. So if that was a leading question, it's fine. I mean, by the time we get past page one, we know Lynette Ridgway, right? Who's the center of this story. And we know the common people's reaction to Lynette Ridgway. I like a lot that we have Lynette Ridgway displaced. And your point about Shakespeare is totally valid. Like, these characters in chapter one don't ever come back, right? Mr. Burnaby, the landlord of the Three Crowns. So we're seeing this bigger than life woman with beauty and brains and fame and love, and she has everything that men desire and women aspire, right? And we know right away the kind of person that she is. And because this is a detective story, of course, we're wondering, is this our victim? Right? And so we have this really interesting contrast of, like, victim and triumph. So that inspires both pity and envy, I think, from the very beginning. And that creates this dissonance in the reader that we want resolved from the very first page of the novel. That is different than if we could have seen her from behind her own eyes, which is how we meet her next. You know, I don't know. What do you think?

David Kern (36:21)

I agree. And I was thinking, so we're gonna go see the movie and then talk about it. I think it comes out February 11th, and that's why we did the book now. And it just occurred to me, I personally like Kenneth Branagh as Pardo, but I know that not everybody does. But I'm really excited to see what they do with Gal Gadot, because, man,

Heidi White (36:47)

such an interesting choice for Lynette.

David Kern (36:50)

Well, but she has so many of those things that you were describing, right? Like, she has. She's this international star. Like, you have whoever's in that movie. Like, it makes so much sense to cast someone who was Wonder Woman, right? Like recognizable women in the world. So as an audience member, you're. You're in the place of the people in the story who are on the ship who know who she is. Like, if the average person in England knew who Lynette Ridgeway was, the average person going to the movie is going to have seen her on Netflix in some dumb movie or on Wonder Woman or in some Academy Award nominated performance. And she has. She has the charisma, she has the beauty, she has the glamour, but she also has the name. And I think that that's such an. I like that choice. There's a lot of other actors in the movie of varying degrees of fame that are interesting choices that I'm excited to see, but it just makes so much sense to cast Gal Gadot in that. In that role. So I'm excited to see how that plays out. And if they're able to actually sort of harness that in a way that enlivens the way they adapt the movie, that's gonna be one of the big things I'm looking for when we see that. And I think they, you know, they made some interesting choices just based on the trailers. I don't know if you've watched it yet, but I'm very excited to see how they do this movie. But, you know, like I said, I'm a little more optimistic and on board with Kenneth Branagh as Hercule Poirot than some people are. But we can talk about that when it's time to talk about the movie. I've got many thoughts on the challenge of adapting.

Heidi White (38:27)

What? Really? Surprise.

David Kern (38:30)

So do you come out of that prologue or so, let's just say these first nine chapters, this first 115 or so pages, do you come out of it with, like, I'm on this character's side. Like, this is the character. This is my favorite character other than Poirot. Like, where are you in terms of, like, choosing an alignment and an alliance for yourself?

Heidi White (38:53)

In the love triangle, specifically.

David Kern (38:57)

Okay, yeah. So in the love triangle specifically. But then also, are there any other characters that just are particularly interesting and appealing to you? So let's do those two questions. Let's do those separately.

Heidi White (39:07)

Yeah. So in the love triangle. I'm not sure I can see the love triangle without. Yeah, I. I'm definitely. I remember Reading this for the first time when I was a teenager and kind of sympathizing more with Lynette, like, all fair love and war. Like, yeah, like there's she. And not understanding the depth of emotion and kind of despising Jackie, her like, desperation. Because I'm a person who like, values poise. Right. Like, so that like kind of. Of looking down on Jackie as like a little bit pathetic. However, as a mature. Hopefully maybe a little. At least more mature.

David Kern (40:07)

More mature than when you were 16?

Heidi White (40:10)

Yes. I don't feel that way at all now. I look because now I value friendship more than getting what you want in like love and war. Right.

David Kern (40:21)

Yeah.

Heidi White (40:22)

I think at the time I probably had love triangles of my own and kind of felt like, may the best woman win. Right. Like, so. Yeah, it's just interesting how. And I think that's. That is. That's compelling in itself, like, that. It is. There's a lot of moral ambiguity that Agatha Christie works into her stock characters. It's not quite as simple as just obviously I'm on this person's side.

David Kern (40:51)

What strikes me about that is interesting is that it kind of makes Lynette, for all her glamour, her beauty, her ability to capture a room, it gives her a degree of immaturity. Right. Because you're talking about how the 16 year old view of yourself is just like, it's all's fair in love and war. We can't. The 16 year old person can't look past their passions or their passion for another person.

Heidi White (41:18)

Exactly.

David Kern (41:19)

And look at the bigger picture of what it's gonna mean to their friendships and their life in general and like, have a little bit of wisdom. Right. And she acts like the 16 year old kid who.

Heidi White (41:29)

Exactly.

David Kern (41:30)

Who. Who can't see the big picture. And so for all of her glamour, she's still a child. And I think that, that that's even mentioned a little bit when Poirot's talking to Simon Doyle and he says something about her age and Simon's like, well, she's gonna be 21 soon or whatever. Like, you know, so we're reminded of her youthfulness. But she's at that. She's like, supposed to be at the cusp of like, being a mature woman who everybody looks up to and is in awe of. But she's a child. And there's a. That's something that I think Christy does a really good job of reinforcing for us, that this is a complicated character because on the one hand, she's a full grown beautiful woman. Who everybody adores, but she's also kind of a dummy.

Heidi White (42:18)

Right. Well, and there's this. When I just. I think my number one reason for loving Agatha Christie as much as I do is that she seems like I want to. I've always put her on my list of authors when people ask, like, who do you want to have dinner with or lunch with or whatever, who would, you know, three authors that you'd like to have dinner with? And I always say Agatha Christie because I. She has this, like, comprehensive, very compassionate depth of vision into the human soul that she writes into these stock characters. Like, there's. Lynette Doyle is. On the one hand, she is what, like I said, every man desires, which makes women either aspire to be like her or envious of women like her and pretend that, you know, Galga's not that beautiful. Right. Like, and. But she is, like, objectively an absolutely specially stunning person. And like, and, and. And she also has this, like, strength of character, just like Lynette Ridgway. And so if when women are like, oh, whatever, I don't think she's that pretty, they're lying because they're envious. And that is written into these kind of novels.

David Kern (43:28)

Like when I talk about Brad Pitt, so.

Heidi White (43:30)

Exactly. Right. He's not that special. Right.

David Kern (43:35)

Don't worry, Tim, you're in the show.

Heidi White (43:37)

Maybe Armie Hammer, right, Who's in the. In the movie, right, that.

David Kern (43:42)

Well, actually, no, Army Hammer. I like that guy. Well, actually, I don't. I like his. Turns out he's a creep. Turns out he's not a great guy.

Heidi White (43:53)

His personal story even Googling what we're talking about.

David Kern (43:57)

Yeah, I know, exactly. Yeah. If you're. If you're like, of a certain age, just stay off the Internet and don't Google his name. Or if you're any age. Turns out maybe.

Heidi White (44:06)

Right. So on the one hand, she's this powerful, beautiful woman, Lynette Ridgeway. But on the other hand, she's like, you know, from the very beginning she's probably doomed. And. And that creates like a pathos and it's. And so there's a fragility to her. And this, like. I think if you, if you hate her throughout the story, you're missing the whole point because there is this vulnerability to her that's written into the fabric of the story, even in the fact that she's the victim. And so we as the readers, what Agatha Christie is doing is like, reckon with this. This beautiful woman who has everything, and yet she's doomed. Like, how Are you gonna feel. And look what she did. How are you gonna feel about her? Are you gonna have any compassion at all?

David Kern (44:54)

I was. I was noticing how, like, the copy for the book right off the bat says that. Lynette, Lynette. It dies. Right? But here we are a third of the way through the book, and she's still alive. And so there's like, no mystery about who's going to die. And so that just goes into what you're saying, right? Like, the book isn't about the fact, like, revealing. The book is not a mystery about who dies. It's a mystery of about, like, the choices that are made. Yeah, yeah. It's like she. This is a huge stretch, I admit, but, you know, reading is all about making connections from one book to another. And I kept thinking about Helen of Troy in this book for some reason, like, the idea that this is, like, this beautiful woman who everybody that they look at is, like, enamored with, and war begins because of her.

Heidi White (45:46)

And she's, like, the saddest woman in the world. Like, the. The victim. She's, like the perpetrator and the victim because of her beauty, which I think is like, the feminine condition, right? Like, that's. Which I think kind of is explored and examined in this novel. Like, what does it mean to be? Again, like you said, maybe it's a stretch, but I don't think it is. And you can just read it like light genre fiction, and that's totally fine. Just read it and move on. But there is this wrestling, I think, that Agatha Christie does on a lot of her novels, what it means to be a woman, the tragedy of beauty, and yet the envy of it for women who aren't. And just that to be both the object and the agent of desire, the expectation of beauty and the cost of beauty is.

David Kern (46:32)

But also, like, the question of the story, like, what is beautiful? Because Lynette. Because Lynette, physically, everybody looks in awe at her, right? But then you look at someone like Poirot, and one of the great things about this book is he can look at. He looks at all these different characters, and he's able to see into them. He's able to see, like, there is something more going on here. She is one of the most beautiful. Like, she is so beautiful that everybody is in awe of her, but she's deeply sad. He can look at, like, you know, he looks at Simon and sees there's more to him than meets the eye. Every character he meets. The point of Poirot as a character, he is not just a great detective because he can say, okay, here's five clues. They add up to this picture, right? He's a great detective because he can. He recognizes something inside these characters beyond what's just the surface picture of that puzzle piece. And so that allows her to think about questions like, what is beauty? What does it mean to be smart? What does it mean to be successful? Like, all the things that she's constantly asking, what does it mean to be destitute? What does it mean to be in despair? What does it mean to hate? What does it mean to be, like, have longing? What does it mean to, like, have wanderlust? Like, all these questions she's constantly asking in her books are because Poirot is able to see more than what's on the surface. And that.

Heidi White (47:51)

That's right.

David Kern (47:51)

And then that takes. It brings us along into those contemplations.

Heidi White (47:56)

I totally agree. I think that's really well said. And it. Again, back to the question of justice, which I think is the inherent contemplation of detective fiction. Is this, like. Is that just then plain justice? Did Lynette have her two decades of triumph? And because in order to, like, right, the scales of the universe that she had, everything. Is her destiny as a victim kind of foreordained by the fact that. Is that just justice being done? Because she had. She was, you know, this bright and vivid flame that had to just be snuffed out because she had everything, Right? And that, I think, is. I mean, we see that at the beginning, even. Even in the first couple of pages when someone says, you know, beauty and brains and money, she's an heiress, and now the most desirable man in England is in love with her. Like, is. That doesn't seem fair somehow. There's that ellipses again, right? The ellipses that is asking us, inviting us into the question of whether or not that's fair or not.

David Kern (49:01)

So if. If Lynette were not incredibly beautiful, incredibly rich, from a successful family, if she didn't have privilege, all those sorts of things, do you think Jackie would have responded the way that she did if they had both been, like, middle class? They're both, you know, they're working for the BBC, they're punching buttons, they're walking home at the end of the day and buying a baguette? I don't know, you know, and I can't really buy a. Buying a baguette in London. Buying. They're going to get bangers and mash, fish and chips, whatever, and fighting over

Heidi White (49:30)

the fish and the Guinness.

David Kern (49:31)

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Is Jackie trying to kill her or whatever?

Heidi White (49:38)

Great question.

David Kern (49:39)

Is Jackie so upset?

Heidi White (49:41)

Is it personal? Right. Well, is this.

David Kern (49:46)

Does her jealousy raise your point that strongly?

Heidi White (49:50)

Because is Jackie. And from what we know now to this point in the story, is Jackie's rage and is her deep wound personal just because of Simon, or is there something kind of inherent within Lydette's triumph over the universe? Yeah, I think that that's a really, really good question, and I actually have an answer to it that I cannot give.

David Kern (50:20)

Yeah, okay, hold on to that discussion.

Heidi White (50:22)

Dot, dot, dot. The ellipses again.

David Kern (50:26)

Would Hera have been as mad.

Heidi White (50:28)

Right. Yeah.

David Kern (50:31)

If she were the fishmonger's daughter that Paris had stolen? But then that's like, why is Paris. You know, like, that's kind of. That's another question. Okay, so as we get into this next part and, you know, the drama's really gonna ratchet up, are there any other characters that have caught your eye that you particularly like? You like the way that Christy portrays them? You enjoy reading them? And then also, what are your. What, like, what really. Just. Last question. Like, what really worked for you in this section? And what. Are you excited to watch? Carry Over?

Heidi White (51:07)

Yeah. I mean, Mrs. Ellerton is so delightful. She's, like, soothing to have on stage. She's like the one who's not in emotional turmoil, you know, and that's kind of nice. She provides this, like, anchor to the story. But, I mean, Rosalie Otterburn is a very, you know, she's a mysterious character at this point, and she's also, I think, a very compelling one. Your eyes are kind of on her when she's on stage, so to speak. How about you?

David Kern (51:33)

You know, I do find Simon Doyle to be an interesting character because he's this guy who's like, not that special, but for some reason she. These two women are obsessed with him. And what's his secret? What's the deal? No, but, like, what, you know, he. He gets taken. She. She, like, Lynette is kind of obsessed with him, and that's kind of why he goes with her. Right. And so, like, there's. There's just like weird, deep seated psychology, psychological questions going on with him. And then, of course, you have all these mysterious characters on the edge, like the doctor and her. Her American agent and so forth, which I don't believe she means to be the one who is finding roles for her on Broadway.

Heidi White (52:25)

Right.

David Kern (52:26)

She's trying to sell her. The American agent is trying to sell her novel.

Heidi White (52:32)

Right? Yes. No. There is a secret. There's some kind of.

David Kern (52:35)

Random House will not buy it.

Heidi White (52:41)

David, just send your manuscript to Random House. Okay?

David Kern (52:45)

No, I just said they won't buy it. Okay, so what really works for you in this section? What are you looking forward to carrying over and what threads are you looking forward to following?

Heidi White (52:55)

I think the love triangle is brilliant. I think that Poirot's sympathy with Jackie and the conversations that are had with Jackie, and I think that the setup of the love triangle, the increasing sense of menace, this, the pity that we are asked as readers to have on Jackie, the question mark we have about Simon, kind of our dissonant response to Lynette, I think, are just incredibly well done. And then the characters that are not part of the love triangle are presented, like, peppered in. In such a way that we. We are forced to pay attention to them and see them as human.

David Kern (53:46)

And yet also, anybody could be a threat.

Heidi White (53:49)

Exactly. Yes, exactly. And all eyes are on the triangle. So that. And I just think she does that incredibly well. What about you?

David Kern (53:58)

Well, what I'm looking forward to is when Tim joins us in the next episode and we make him guess how this book ends.

Heidi White (54:04)

Oh, because he hasn't read it.

David Kern (54:07)

I don't think he's read this one. But also, like, when he had to, when he guessed what happened in Rebecca.

Heidi White (54:12)

He's so good.

David Kern (54:13)

It's one of the two or three most popular episodes we've ever done is when Tim was just guessing what happened in that book. So I feel like we need to try to recapture some of the magic of Tim predicting what happens in a mystery book that we were able to harness last winter. That's what I'm really looking forward to, is making Tim guess on the air how this book is. Well, Heidi, this was a good time. I know.

Heidi White (54:43)

I'm so excited for reading this book.

David Kern (54:46)

Don't forget that if you're interested in creative writing or languages or just love books or, you know, have a student who is ages 8 to 18 and loves those things or wants to learn more about those things, you can head over to Signum university.org academy or email academyignumu.org to learn more about what they've got up to at the Signum Academies Club programs. Again, those are online. They're low stress. There's lots of options, including Old English and Old Norse if you're into. If you're interested in learning those languages. So that is super cool. You know, they're just engage. Embrace the nerd inside of you. Like, embrace the Nerdom and just go for it. That's what I say.

Heidi White (55:29)

So you and I are way past that. So I think Old Norse is the next step.

David Kern (55:33)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, well, we have lots going on here. That retreat got Monday at 1pm Eastern time. That registration is going to go up. We've got the Daily Poem. We've got the Patreon episodes on Anna Karenina. We've got the place, the Thing, which of course is, you know, Tim's spearheading that show that's on Henry the Fourth right now. What else is going on, Heidi? We got Willy Window, two seasons of that with season three coming. We've got Bibliography, new episodes of that coming soon that cover it, I think. That covers it, yeah.

Heidi White (56:01)

And the retreat. Always back to the retreat.

David Kern (56:03)

Don't forget, you can join the conversation over on Facebook. That's Facebook.com close reads. I like my brain now immediately tries to go to facebook.com Goldberry Books because I say that so often. But it's facebook.com close reads to join the conversation there. And we're all over social media. We've got the email newsletter, all that kind of stuff. So if you have questions for us, you can email me@davidgoldberrybooks.com and at the end of the next three, two episodes from now, we will do our Q and A episode on the On Death in the Nile. And then, Heidi, we're on to As I Lay Dying next. So it's a little different, a little different than this book, but also, like, I know that Faulkner has a reputation and it's a reputation that some people have a difficult time with, but I hope they'll get us as they Lay Dying or try. Because, honestly, I think it's a genius book. I think it's a really special bit of American lit. So I hope people will join us for that ride. But for now, we're on the Death in the Nile ride and we're having a good time over the next few weeks. So, Heidi, any final thoughts?

Heidi White (57:12)

I have no final thoughts. Well, I guess I do. I do have a final thought, and that is that I'm just so excited to be doing a book that I love because I, like, struggled my way through Confederacy of Dunces and learned to appreciate it. Loved a lot of things about it, but this is.

David Kern (57:30)

It didn't come easy.

Heidi White (57:31)

Enthusiastic about. Exactly. I had to be guided into it, which is a pleasurable experience in itself, but it's a little more of a fight, you know, to, like, be taught to love.

David Kern (57:41)

It can't be all your reading experiences.

Heidi White (57:43)

Yeah, exactly. And so it's just really fun to do, to do an Agatha Christie in which I just have nothing but pure effervescence. So, yeah, it's really great.

David Kern (57:54)

Well, I just want to say thank you to everyone who, as we begin a new year here on Closed Reads, everybody who's been listening and just sending us nice emails and coming by the bookstore and sending us notes in the mail. Like I've gotten snail mail. The bookstore people just sending nice letters. It's just really, I'm grateful to be able to be a part of this community and play a small role in facilitating these conversations and just like meeting new people. And it's. I just want to express as we begin 2022 how grateful I am to be entering another year in June. It'll be seven years of this podcast. You know, Heidi, you joined later, but it's been seven years that this has been going. So June seven is a magical number. Something or other. I know, right? So just, I just want to express that publicly how grateful I am to be able to do this. And to everyone who's been supporting us on Patreon and by spreading in the word, like helping, letting us do this and making it possible, we're, we're grateful for it. So just, just wanted to get a chance to say that before we sign off. So thank you and thanks to you, Heidi, for, for coming on at 11pm Eastern Time on a Friday night.

Heidi White (59:13)

Well, it's 9pm My time, so actually more of a thank you to you still Friday night. I would like to say express my gratitude for this community as well. I'm with you. Everything you said, I echo. Except I don't own the bookstore. I just visit it and buy things of it.

David Kern (59:30)

And that's another thing. Thank you to everybody. The books that you all bought like through bookshop or coming in the store for Christmas this year are a huge help to us. Like Bethany and I make our living doing this bookstore and, and this podcast. So thank you to everybody who, who is bought books through us, our kids. Thank you because they're fed. So just, yeah, just want to say thank you. Lots of, lots of, lots of gratitude as we enter this, this new year and just, just wanted to express that. So. All right, Heidi, let's get out of here before I keep talking.

Heidi White (60:08)

All right.

David Kern (60:09)

For Heidi White and for Tim McIntosh, who in Aruba or something fun. I'm David Kern. Not for Tim, for Hidey Light, I'm David Kern. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy reading.

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