Episode 220: Slow Fashion & Inclusivity with Sushmita of Ethical Fat Fashion

Summary

Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty: Episode 220 Summary

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Title: Slow Fashion & Inclusivity with Sushmita of Ethical Fat Fashion
Host: Amanda Lee McCarty
Release Date: December 18, 2024

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1. Introduction

In Episode 220 of Clotheshorse, host Amanda Lee McCarty welcomes Sushmita, the founder of Ethical Fat Fashion, a substack newsletter dedicated to amplifying ethical, size-inclusive, and diverse fashion brands. Amanda shares her personal journey of connecting with Sushmita, highlighting the challenges of reaching out due to her anxiety but expressing immense satisfaction in finally collaborating in Tokyo.

2. Audio Essay: Community Spotlight

Before diving into the main conversation, Amanda features an audio essay from Lisa of Top Stitch Mending, a community sewing hub based in Richmond, Virginia. Lisa emphasizes the importance of community in sustainable fashion, detailing how their sewing studio fosters connections, promotes clothing repairs, and educates the community about the environmental and ethical impacts of consumerism.

"Community is bringing people together who may not otherwise meet and finding common threads between them."
— Lisa, 09:47

3. Main Conversation with Sushmita

a. Inclusivity Challenges in Sustainable Fashion

Sushmita discusses how the sustainable fashion movement has predominantly catered to thin, white, young, and affluent women, neglecting broader demographics. She questions why, years into the movement, inclusivity remains limited and explores the systemic barriers that prevent a more diverse representation.

"How do we make slow fashion ours and not theirs?"
— Dustin, 30:47

b. The Cost and Value of Slow Fashion vs. Fast Fashion

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the financial barriers associated with slow fashion. Amanda shares her struggle with affordability, recounting a two and a half-year period without making an ethical purchase. Sushmita highlights how fast fashion has distorted consumers' perceptions of value, pushing the narrative that more items are better, which perpetuates overconsumption.

"The more stuff you have, the less poor you are."
— Amanda, 38:39

c. Shifting Consumer Behavior and Wardrobe Perception

Both hosts delve into the psychological aspects of fashion consumption. They address the societal pressure to constantly update wardrobes, fueled by influencers and social media. The conversation explores strategies to redefine personal style, emphasizing quality over quantity and fostering self-trust in fashion choices.

"Your wardrobe is like a relationship, and you need to continuously be reevaluating what you own."
— Amanda, 40:10

d. Strategies for Inclusive Slow Fashion

Sushmita provides actionable advice on making slow fashion more accessible and inclusive. She advocates for increased acceptance of secondhand shopping, leveraging platform filters for better searches, and supporting small, ethical brands that prioritize diversity. The discussion also touches on the challenges of finding ethical undergarments and the importance of not striving for perfection in consumption choices.

"Stop looking for perfection in a world, in a system that does not set you up for perfection."
— Sushmita, 78:53

e. Personal Experiences and Social Pressures

Amanda and Dustin share personal anecdotes about their experiences within the fashion industry and activism. Dustin recounts feeling out of place in predominantly wealthy advocacy circles, emphasizing the need for solidarity and community support. Amanda reflects on the emotional toll of political climates and the importance of using one's platform responsibly.

"We are all workers, whether we like it or not. We all deserve to be safe in our jobs."
— Dustin, 104:35

4. Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode concludes, Amanda expresses her commitment to fostering community and supporting diverse voices in the slow fashion movement. She announces upcoming projects focused on inclusivity, such as exploring ageism and adaptive clothing for people with disabilities. Amanda also reflects on the importance of activism beyond voting, advocating for continuous effort in community organizing and sustainable practices.

"Voting isn't the solution, it's just step one."
— Amanda, 84:40

5. Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Ethical fashion as a whole to me means fashion industry reform.”
  — Amanda, 34:08

• “Everything is tainted, that doesn't mean we can't dream of a better future.”
  — Sushmita, 80:57

• “We all deserve to be able to live off of our jobs because otherwise, why are we doing them?”
  — Dustin, 104:27

• “The way that ultra fast fashion has produced and cut costs through using less quality materials has changed how all brands produce.”
  — Amanda, 50:25

6. Final Thoughts

Episode 220 offers an insightful exploration of the intersection between slow fashion and inclusivity, highlighting the systemic issues that hinder diversity within the sustainable fashion movement. Through candid conversations and personal narratives, Amanda and Sushmita shed light on the challenges and potential solutions for making ethical fashion accessible to all, regardless of size, race, or economic status.

Listeners are encouraged to support inclusive slow fashion by exploring and promoting diverse ethical brands, embracing secondhand shopping, and engaging in community-driven initiatives. The episode underscores the necessity of continuous advocacy and collective effort in reshaping the fashion industry's future towards sustainability and inclusivity.

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Connect with Ethical Fat Fashion:

• Substack: Ethical Fat Fashion
• Instagram: @ethicalfatfashion

Support Clotheshorse:

• Merchandise: Available on Clotheshorse Podcast Website
• Patreon & Donations: Links provided in the show notes and social media profiles.

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This summary captures the essence of Episode 220, highlighting the critical discussions around slow fashion's inclusivity challenges, the impact of fast fashion on consumer behavior, and the importance of community and activism in driving meaningful change.

Transcript

[Amanda]

Foreign.

[Sushmita]

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that wrapped gifts in our local free advertiser newspaper. I believe it's called the Solenco Advertiser and it does have a tiny bit of local news, but mostly just ads. We still read it. We need to get a real newspaper subscription. Anyway, most gifts I'm giving this year are wrapped in the Solenco Advertiser. It's a life of glamour here at Clotheshorse World headquarters. Anyway, I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 220. I am so excited about this week's guest, Sushmita of Ethical Fat Fashion, the quote, coolest fat positive fashion newsletter amplifying ethical size, diverse brands. And I will tell you that is 100% true. I've been a fan of Sushmita's work for a while now, and even though I have intense anxiety about reaching out to strangers on the Internet, you have no idea. It is second only to the terror of having to call and order food over the phone. Nightmare for me. Personal nightmare. Anyway, even though I'm nervous about strangers talking to strangers, all that stuff. When I found out that Sushmita was based in Tokyo, I dropped her a dm. When I decided I was going to take a month long trip to Japan, I just had to meet her. I was over the moon when she got back to me because most people either ignore me or go me after a few messages. And I couldn't believe we were really going to hang out in Tokyo. It was so incredible to spend the afternoon with her. Even before we were recording. We spent a few hours eating muffins, having coffee, and just chatting about all kinds of things. And it was so much fun. I want to do that like a thousand more times. Anyway, it was so fun to record with her too. And we're going to talk about all kinds of things in this episode, including the following. Sustainable fashion has an inclusivity problem, meaning it still focuses on thin, white, young, wealthier, cisgendered women. Why is that still the case, years into the sustainability movement in fashion? We're going to talk about that next. How can we change that? It's important. I always feel like I'm part of a growing, diverse community of primarily working class people. Yet I personally still see many brands and organizations continuing to focus on the same thin, white, young, rich people. Why is it important for Slow Fashion to be a movement and community for everyone? Next. Man, we're really, we're really covering some ground here today. Okay. Conversations about cost are particularly difficult because we know that the prices of ultra fast fashion are only possible because the clothes are low quality and, you know, someone suffered to make them. Fast fashion has warped our sense of value and how much clothing should cost, how do we untangle that? And something that has been on my mind a lot lately, the societal expectation around how much clothing we should have has changed drastically over the years, especially during the fast fashion era. There's definitely this idea of of more is more. We think we need a lot of clothes that are inexpensive rather than a lot less clothing at a higher price. And I'm not talking about capsule wardrobes here. I know they work for some of you. They don't work for everyone. I'm not going down the capsule road here. I'm just saying how do we reconcile or come to terms with the idea that maybe we don't need as many clothes as social media makes it seem like we need? I mean, influencers literally wear a new outfit every day and show it to us. How do we break that feeling that we need new clothes for every day, right? Or every event or every week even? Sushmita will share her thoughts on that and how we can change our own perception of value and the quantity of clothing we own. Also, she's going to explain why we should shop from small brands. She's going to debunk the myth that there are no sustainable brands that make larger sizes. And she's going to share so much more with us. It's. She's great. She's the best. This conversation with Sushmita is actually the jump off to a series I'm doing over the next few weeks about inclusivity within the slow fashion movement. I'm actually looking for guests for future conversations along the lines of this series. Specifically, I'm looking for someone who wants to talk about ageism within slow fashion. Maybe you're a stylist who works with older people. Maybe you are older, you're yourself and you feel largely invisible or don't understand why most advertising seems to be targeting 20 year olds. I'm sure you have some ideas there. If this is something that you think you is an area of expertise for you, reach out to me. I'm also looking for someone to talk about the lack of adaptive, ethical clothing for people with disabilities. So if you're a brand or a designer who's working in that space, please reach out to me. Okay, before we jump into everything else in this episode, just a few announcements. 1 Clothes Horse merch is all in stock right now and ready to ship, including some new transfer and sticker designs voted on by all of you. One transfer that is missing is nothing is disposable. And it's because the printer only printed one. One of you bought it. You're a lucky person. You have one of one in the world. And I am going to get those reprinted probably after the holidays. But all the other new art is up there for purchase. Also, between now and the end of the year, a few of the original transfer designs are on sale, including it's cheap because someone didn't get paid. Don't give your money to assholes and shop from people, not corporations. So go place your order. That will actually help me pay to get the missing design. Bridget, thanks in advance. Two, the other thing I wanted to talk about, you have probably noticed. Okay, well, maybe you didn't notice because you have other things going on in your life, but just in case you did notice, this week's episode is coming out on Tuesday. Honestly, it's the result of the perfect storm of technical issues. Me having a uti. Sorry for the tmi, but to be honest, if you know, you know, it's really hard to work on anything when peeing is like, its own excruciating experience. Um, and I've also just had, like, a lot of work to do for my clients in the future. Other episodes may come out on different days here and there, just because sometimes it is so difficult as one person to juggle, juggle it all. And I'm just being fully transparent with you that sometimes, sometimes it's just like too much. Right? My UTI is doing better, by the way. You know, a few different networks have reached out to me this year about bringing clotheshorse into their network fold, which would theoretically make me a tiny bit of money and most importantly, take away some of the work that I have to do. But it would also mean losing some semblance of control of what we talk about here. And more importantly, it would mean you all would have to start listening to ads about, like, online sports betting and stitch fix and stuff like that. And I just, I don't feel okay with that. And I know you wouldn't feel okay with that. So we'll just continue to be honest with one another about why episodes come out late sometimes. Okay, before we get into my conversation with Sushmita, there's one more thing. Longtime listeners know that every year I feature audio essays from community members who are also small business owners. It's one way I can use my platform to support rad people doing rad stuff within the slow fashion community. It's free and it's a way that small businesses can get in front of the listeners of this show. This year's theme is Community. I ask small businesses to talk about their participation and impact within their communities because really that's what makes them different from say, Amazon or Target who have little to no positive impact on their immediate communities. Right. I think unfortunately this is going to be the last year that I do the audio essays just because the interest was so low. This year I only received three, so maybe it's just not the great idea that I thought it was and that's okay. That said, the three audio essays that I did receive are actually really great. So this is definitely a quality, not quantity situation and I'm pretty stoked about it. This week we're going to listen to one from Lisa of Top Stitch Mending, based in Richmond, Virginia. So let's give it a listen.

[Lisa]

Topstitch Mending is a vibrant community sewing hub that also offers repairs to keep clothes out of the landfill. We're located in the Churchill neighborhood of Richmond, Virginia and turned 7 in March of 2025. For me, community is bringing people together who may not otherwise meet and finding common threads between them, ideally weaving a strong cloth of connections. I think small businesses can be a meeting place and conversation starter for these connections. We provide a place where people can sew, learn and create while making friends and finding time for self care. Sewing can serve as a meditative practice and it also allows people to open up to each other. When done in a group setting. Our community Sewing Studio allows people to not only share skills, but a deeper part of themselves. We also repair clothing for friends and neighbors who don't have the time or energy but still want to support the repair stream over consumption. This practice gets people excited about reuse and educates them on the clothing supply chain and where it often fails us and the garment workers within it. People can begin to see the toll consumerism takes on the planet and can become active participants as good stewards to not only the environment but the people in it. We operate very differently from a big business as we directly serve local community and know the name of everyone who walks in our door or mails in their repairs. We customize our classes to directly serve what we see and hear as needed, listening to feedback and adjusting as necessary in a short amount of time. Our top values are carried throughout every single offering, for example tiered class pricing to accommodate different income levels. We hope to remove any barriers with free community events as well as sewing supplies for anyone who may need them. You can see our work and event offerings at Topstitch Mending on Instagram and Facebook, and sign up for our newsletter services and [e-mail].

[Sushmita]

Thanks to Lisa for taking the time to record such a polished and informative audio essay. I know she shared where to find Top Stitch Mending, but I will also include all of that information in the show notes too. And I'm just so grateful for all of you who participate in these kinds of special things because if you've ever had to record yourself talking, it is way harder than you think it's going to be. So thank you Lisa, and thank you to everyone else. It's very vulnerable to record yourself talking and then be like, hey, you want to just like throw this in your episode for a bunch of strangers to hear? So thank you. All right, let's get down to the main event. My conversation with Sushmita. Picture it. Tokyo, Japan November 2024 we decided to record at a karaoke place in Tokyo, which I actually so excited about. I've never been to one there. We, you know, paid to get in. Like Sushmita checked us in on the screen and everything. And there was. Sorry, I get excited about the silliest things and I think you probably know this by now. There was unlimited beverages, soup, yes, three kinds of soup, other snacks. I think there was like a soda machine that also gave you alcoholic drinks. It felt so luxurious to me. And Sushmita said this wasn't even a fancy one, so go figure. Anyway, we settled in there, we recorded. I'm going to tell you, there was a little bit of singing happening in the background. You're going to hear it here and there. It's not too intrusive. By the time Dustin works his magic on this, it will be even less noticeable. But I just want you to know you are going to hear some background noise, but I think it adds ambiance. And you know, you can close your eyes and picture yourself in a place where you can have unlimited soups, three different kinds, and all the beverages you want. Which by the way, I really got into Calpico while I was in Japan, which is the like yogurt flavored soda. I don't know, I could go for one right now, to be honest. And I did enjoy some Calpico while we were recording. So we used my portable recording device which I bought secondhand earlier this year. And it was one of those moments where I'm so grateful for Dustin because I wouldn't even have known that this kind of device existed, much less that it was something I could buy secondhand. And I packed it up and took it to Japan in my big carrying case with all of the other things I needed for it. And I felt like such a legit professional. And I've used this device throughout the year. I used it to record the audio for all the videos that were in the live streaming episode. You know, episode 200. It's how I recorded audio during the Clothes Horse Jamboree. And it's how I recorded all the episodes in Japan. It's a great device and it's pretty hard to fuck it up. Okay, well, that's, like, not true. Because the very first episode that I recorded in Japan about convenience stores, when I uploaded the file to my computer, it was silent because that's right, I forgot to push a button on it. And I had to FaceTime with Dustin and have him tell me what button to push. Embarrassing. And then I recorded the whole thing again. I mean, whatever. Sometimes that makes it sound better. It's like I have a dress rehearsal or something. Anyway, problem solved. Did not do that again. So I was recording with Sushmita being super profashed. Had my little tiny microphones. Audio levels look good because I've learned about how to do that kind of stuff. And we were about an hour into our conversation and a little message came up on it saying, memory card full. And I was like, okay, you know, it's fine. We'll just stop and we'll throw on our coats and we'll run to this Don Quijote that Sushmita said was down, down the street. And if you don't know what Don Quijote is, that means you didn't listen to the episode My last episode of the Japan series. But I'll just tell you, it is a wild store that merges groceries with Walmart with Spencer's Gifts. And it's tons of stimulation. There's a song they play over and over again that is the theme song of Don Quixote that gets into your brain and never leaves. And you find yourself singing it even a month later while you're taking out the trash. So we go there we are running around like maniacs. We find the section where memory cards live. And like, I don't know, some of these say they're for video games, some say they're for computers. I'm so nervous. I swear one time Dustin told me that all SD cards are the same. So I'm just gonna Buy this one and hope for the best. And then we paid for it and we ran back and we plugged it in and I was like, certainly, everything will be fine. And to be fair, the memory card did work. That part of the conversation sounds amazing. I did a really great job monitoring the audio levels and everything else. Furthermore, I got to bond with Sushmita while scrambling around at Don Quixote to look for a memory card, which really does bring people together. Anyway, I get back home and I sit down this week to edit it. Basically, I have to pull out that SD card and like plug it into a thing and put it in my computer. Well, with the new SD card, everything is great. Then I put in the old one, the full one, and guess what I discovered? My audio is completely missing. I guess it only had enough memory card to save one part of the conversation, which is an important lesson learned. Always just go in with a fully empty memory card. Don't hoard files. I'm a file hoarder. I'm not ashamed to admit it. So Dustin and I realize this. I am distraught. I almost cry, but don't. I'm like, well, maybe I could like, fake out the questions that I asked her or something and we could plug them in. But as we're listening to the file, we realized that you can hear me talking to Sushmita through her microphone. And it's not ideal, but it's pretty okay. It's okay. It's not great. It's not as smooth as I normally sound or as smooth as Sushmita sounds speaking directly into her microphone. But Dustin has assured me that he can make it sound even better when he does the final post production here. But he also told me to tell you it's not going to be as good as usual. But then about halfway through this episode, it will switch to that second SD card and you will hear me sounding great. And we both agreed that Sushi Mita said so many smart, thoughtful, important things that we did not want to cut the first part of that episode. So we're just putting it here for you. I hope you really enjoy it. I did cut out some parts where it was really hard to hear me, but I did keep something really important. And if you can't hear what I'm saying, I'm just going to tell you. I reveal that when you try on clothes in Japan, you have to put a weird mesh bag over your head so you don't get makeup or lotion or anything on the clothing. And I just think knowing that you have to put a bag over your head to try on clothes is really important. So if you don't hear that part, just know it's in there. Keep it in mind. Important, fun, fact of the day. That said, with all of this, I think this conversation is great, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. So. So let's jump right in.

[Dustin]

All right. Why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?

[Amanda]

Hi, everyone. I'm Sushmita. I'm Australian. I'm also Indo. Fijian. My partner's British. So before coming to Japan, I lived in the UK for four and a half years, and now I'm in Tokyo, and I've been here for over five years. Obviously, I love fashion, and I run Ethical Fat Fashion, which is a substack, so a weekly newsletter.

[Sushmita]

And we are right now in a.

[Dustin]

Karaoke room at a karaoke bar that has all you can drink beverages and soup. Just as an FYI, we haven't had any soup yet, but we might. And I love that I am on the other side of the world. You are on the other side of the world from where you're from as well. And here we are having a conversation.

[Amanda]

Yeah, pretty cool.

[Dustin]

So let's talk about ethical fat fashion, because that's what we're here to talk about. I personally, like, did not wake up, you know, one day or even was born thinking, like, oh, someday I'm going to talk to people about fast fashion on the Internet. For me, it was a journey of many realizations that got me there. How did you find yourself involved in having very difficult conversations with strangers on the Internet about fast fashion? Like, how did you get there?

[Amanda]

I didn't really imagine myself talking to strangers on the Internet about fashion either. Of course, I think my relationship with fashion started quite early as I was growing up. I really loved thrifting. And kind of the adventure of thrifting we spoke about earlier about kind of finding our own individuality in fashion. And because I couldn't afford certain things, thrifting was like, the only way for me to carve out a personality through fashion. And that was the early experience of it. And then all of a sudden, in my early 20s, my size changed, I gained weight, and I no longer could shop at mainstream stores. I found it really difficult to buy secondhand as well. And I just became really disconnected from that part of my identity. And all I was wearing was, like, T shirts that were too small and leggings for years. And then now and then I'd find something in my size. And I wouldn't even question whether it was part of my style or not. I'd just be like, this fits. I'm going to buy it. And it was before fast fashion or ultra fast fashion was a huge thing. So this was like before she and before Temu. Those, like, those weren't really options for me. And so I thought that I was never going to be able to have that connection to fashion again. Then all of a sudden, I think it was just before my 30th birthday, I was looking for a dress online. And ethical fashion and sustainable fashion has always been in the back of my mind, but for so long, like, I couldn't even shop at mainstream stores. So I was like, how am I ever going to find an ethical option? This is impossible. And so when I was looking for this dress, I stumbled across one brand, an independent, smaller brand that did custom sizing. And I wouldn't use the word affordable, but it was priced at the same level as what you would see in department stores. It was something that I could afford. And when I found this one brand, I found another brand and then another one. And I just found all of these independent, ethical, sustainable brands that were doing larger sizes for my body and beyond. And I was just thinking, how come no one knows about this? Everyone online keeps saying there's no sustainable and ethical options for fat people. And I was the same as well.

[Dustin]

Right.

[Amanda]

And maybe five years ago, that was completely true. And I was in that camp and I'd be like, they just don't exist. And then when I started researching and I made a list, this was more for myself. I thought, I need to tell people about this. Like, we need to be able to find these brands. And from there I made a directory, like an online website for my fat community. But unfortunately, one of the plugins that I used was unethical. And I didn't realize that till much later on, so I had to take that down. Since then, there's just been more conversations that have happened, more things, more connections that I wanted to talk about. And I'm an artist as well. So I started making zines on Patreon and kind of combining the ethical fashion, sustainable fashion, conversations about body image, my personal experiences and art. I put them into these zines. And then finally, now I've been doing substack for almost a year where I've still got the art, I've moved the directory so the list of brands on there, and I'm still having these complex conversations.

[Dustin]

Yeah, I mean, that's.

[Sushmita]

That's quite a journey.

[Dustin]

I mean, as you're talking, I was thinking about how a lot of people don't know about these brands. And there's a really good reason for that. It's money, right? They get drowned out. There are definitely brands that come top line that we hear about all the time in the ethical space. You know, whether it's like. And when I said ethical, by the way, that was in quotes with a little bit of irony, because it'll be like Everlane or Parade or brands like that that have so much money for marketing that they. They become what we think ethical fashion is. Right? But the reality is that there are all of these other brands, so many people around the world who are making clothing ethically and are making it in more sizes. They just don't have that marketing budget. And I. I feel like they're drowned out. So it's easy to believe that there are only like five brands out there that are ethical and most of them are not size inclusive. And to say, I'm not a part of this. No one wants to be a part of this. So I think that your work is really valuable, and I hope that people tell you that all the time because it's hard.

[Amanda]

Thank you.

[Dustin]

So you and I were talking about this earlier while you're eating muffins, that. Talking about fast fashion, talking about slow fashion on the Internet. It's kind of surprising how hot people come in and want to fight with you. It is not easy work, right? And there are so many. I mean, sometimes I will take a step back and I'll be like, wow.

[Sushmita]

I can't believe we waste so much.

[Dustin]

Time fighting about clothing on the Internet when there was all these bigger issues. And when I started working on Clothes Source, I kind of thought people would be stoked to hear the truth about this stuff, but it just made people mad sometimes, which I'm sure you've experienced. I find that a lot of the pushback I. I hear, and when I hear, I mean, like, read comes to me in the same 1, 2, or 3 kind of. I call them excuses. We can call them pushbacks. We can call them feelings about all this. What kind of pushback do you receive most often in your work on ethical fashion?

[Amanda]

I think it's a really interesting question because I get a lot of pushback, but most of my work is fighting this narrative that size inclusive brands don't exist. We see that repeated again and again and again. And so I think people who want to continue buying fast fashion without thinking about the implications a lot of the time, they say it's because there's no alternative. And me providing an alternative for some people, not everyone, because I know that buying directly from ethical brands can be above some people's budgets. But for other people, it does mean well. Here is a size inclusive or size diverse brand that you can participate in and you don't need to buy fast fashion anymore. And that can get people really angry.

[Dustin]

No, it's true. I mean, I would say the pushback I get is either sustainable fashion is just for rich people, sustainable fashion is just for thin people, or sustainable fashion is not available in my aesthetic. And I do think, like I was saying earlier, that these are. I get it. Because it's hard. It's hard to find this we're used to. I mean, right now, especially it's the holiday season, I feel like I can't open any device without being just bombarded with emails and posts and ads selling me something. And that's because those companies have all that money and they're sort of drowning out what I want to see and read. Like the summer social media is kind of rough and boring unless you like ads. And I can understand feeling like you don't get to be a part of it. You and I were talking about this earlier. I was saying how I had a conversation with a client about how a lot of trends begin with the wealthy, right? And they start wearing or using something and then the rest of us see it and we want to buy into that. We want to. We want the success and security that wealth implies, right? And being associated with wealth by following that trend, having that thing, that means maybe we get to have that too. And then we all get that thing, whatever it is, and then wealthy people don't want it anymore. And then a new trend cycle begins. And I like to think of slow fashion as being this movement, this social trend that we start rather than wealthy people. But it's hard because for so long, the narrative of sustainable fashion and those brands, it has been driven by wealth, by thinness, by whiteness, by youth. And I wonder how. This is a really big question to be asking you in a karaoke bar in the middle of the day. But how do we make slow fashion ours and not theirs?

[Amanda]

Let me divide this into two parts. I think the first thing is this binary, and we were talking about this earlier, where we relate sustainability to the wealth healthy. And I think that that is in part because of celebrity activism as well. Like, what is the one issue that celebrities end up latching onto when, you know, they don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to, you know, have support for anything else. Even though when it comes to environmental impact, the people who are most impacted are the working class and the poor, especially on a global scale. So sustainability, we need to look at it as a global issue, a working class issue. It's not an elitist issue. And so it's really strange to me that ethical fashion has been lumped into sustainability. And in part, it's not just the celebrities. I think it's also wellness culture as well. Because we look at sustainability as almost part of wellness culture. And it's about clean eating or organic food and all of these check boxes. And then at the same time, people think that because it's for the rich, the opposite is fast fashion. And then that must be for the rest of us. And because of that binary, people don't see ethical fashion as what it should be. It's a people centered, labor centered movement. And even sometimes I fall into the trap of saying, like, ethical fashion is buying from ethical brands. And that's just one piece of the puzzle. Ethical fashion as a whole to me means fashion industry reform. And that means treating workers with dignity and respect and like giving fair wages, making sure that they have safe working conditions. Like, I don't know how in what world that is considered elitist. I think when we take away the elitism and we see this as a working class issue, a labor issue, and we can finally, you know, think of ourselves as potentially being part of that movement. The other thing, when it comes to the slow fashion or the sustainable or ethical fashion movement, is because we connect sustainable brands with elitism. We don't realize that a lot of the people who are running these really tiny small operations, they're working class themselves. And some of them are really struggling to make their brands work. And so when we create all these binaries and these hierarchies, it doesn't allow us to see the diversity and the nuance of the entire fashion industry. And it becomes contradictory with us rejecting ethical fashion. We're actually rejecting the very people that we have the most in common with.

[Dustin]

That is so true. I mean, this is really an issue of solidarity. I think what you said there about a lot of these smaller brands being working class people just like us. I mean, almost all of my clients are very small brands. Many of them work a full time job. In addition to trying to dress people.

[Sushmita]

Ethically, Many of them are basically not.

[Dustin]

Paying themselves so they can pay their employees. They don't have health insurance because they can't afford it, but it's something that they truly believe in. Why do you think people are so ready to resist ethical fashion online and to kind of lash out sometimes about fast fashion? Like why? And trust me, I've spent so much time thinking about this. Why will people show up, just sort of fall on their sword for she and our anthropology companies that really don't care about their best interests at all, like why? Why are people so fiercely defending access to it?

[Amanda]

I think that question is so layered. I mean, if we look at the culture that we're in right now, we're all on this desirability ladder. We're all kind of competing against each other. There's hyper individualism and fashion is one of those ways. And for a lot of us, especially those of us who haven't had access to fashion for a really long time, and if your first exposure wasn't the ethical brands or the sustainable brands, and your first exposure was the mainstream ones, including ultra fast fashion, that's your first taste of actually being able to participate in fashion. So I feel like that's a really big one. And I think there's also a lack of community as well. Like in our community, I will say that it's very all or nothing. Either you have the money to buy from ethical brands or you don't and you're not part of this community. Instead of like finding, I guess, gentler ways for people who are making the switch to actually enter the movement, especially for those of us who don't have the budget to be supporting these brands straight away anyway, I think the other thing as well is obviously the price expectations and volume shopping. It's really hard for us to look at like a shirt or a top for 50 to $150. Like these are the real prices that sustainable and ethical fashion often costs. When shein you can get like a top for a couple of dollars, you can buy 10 or 20 of the same thing instead of buying one from a more ethical brand. And that's a really, really difficult shift in thinking for all of us. I think even those of us who support ethical fashion now, it's still hard to get used to the pricing.

[Dustin]

It's sort of a shift in our comfort. With less quantity of clothing, which I was talking with you about earlier, that we live in a world right now where more is better. Right? And especially because there's so much classism baked into everything that we do, every, every system that we exist within. The conceit is that the more stuff you have, the Less poor. You are right. Whether we agree with that, say that out loud. Obviously, I don't agree with that. It's baked into our brains that that is the surrounding ourselves with stuff proves something to someone somewhere. And it. It means we're safe, basically. And of course, the real. The real unfortunate truth is that, like, people who are rich can tell your clothes from shein, and they are already judging you. But take that off the table. We live in this time where more is more. And for years, we have been told that we constantly need new clothes, and we need them for all of these different things. We need a new outfit for every wedding. We need a whole new suitcase of clothing for every trip. We need clothes for date night to wear for a big meal with your.

[Sushmita]

Family, and then something else different to.

[Dustin]

Wear after the meal to hang out. I know this because I've worked on marketing campaigns for this, and I was working in fast fashion. We would be like, here's what you wear to Thanksgiving dinner, and here's what you wear afterwards. And we would sell stuff to people this way. So we have been told we need a lot of clothes for a lot of different purposes, and they should only be worn a few times because after that, they're not interesting anymore. And when you are coming from that mindset, living in that world where it is very difficult to keep up anyway, cost becomes kind of the most important characteristic of it all. Right, I need to have a lot of new clothes. I need two separate outfits to wear on one day because I have some wear something for the dinner, and then after the dinner, I need it to be cheap. And so I think we already know that fast fashion has warped our sense of value and how much something should cost. But those costs work for us because we need so much. And so I'm not advocating for a capsule wardrobe at all right now.

[Sushmita]

But, you know, we have to get.

[Dustin]

Comfortable with the idea that rather than five sweaters, we have one really good one or, you know, two pairs of pants instead of 20. And I just wonder for you, like, how do you. How do you make that adjustment? Have you been able to make that adjustment? I'm assuming that you not have a big closet here in Japan.

[Amanda]

This is a really complicated question for me because I feel like to be in the ethical fashion space, there is this less is more philosophy that you have to follow, and I'm really bad at it. I do have a really small closet, but I'm also really impulsive, and money is a huge concern to me. And I support ethical brands where I can, but I thrift a lot as well. So sometimes I'll find myself with holes in my wardrobe. I'm not talking about style gaps, I'm talking about things that I really need for the summer, for the winter, like a decent coat that I just don't own. And I can see the temptation for some people, like when cost is an issue. But at the same time, I also think that your wardrobe is like a relationship and you need to continuously be reevaluating what you own and see what those gaps are, what you need each year, each season, and especially with climate change as well, the weather is changing and I think good quality clothes are more important than ever. I, I think she and like a sheen coat is not going to cut it for the current winters.

[Dustin]

No one has said anything more true about Xi'an than those clothes are not intended for climate change. Because not only are the winter clothing, is it not warm enough, the summer clothing, I don't know how you could wear it with the kind of heat and humidity that we're seeing because it tends to be poly. Poly blends? No, just usually a straight polyester. It's so unbreathable, so uncomfortable. Often it's not adaptable, like you couldn't really unbutton it because the buttons are fake and really well the sleeves, they're cinched in and, and so it is really intended for this tiny sliver of a snapshot of a moment and then that's it. And with the way the world is changing, that just doesn't make sense to us anymore. And listen, I had a time in my life where every Wednesday I would go to the mall with my friend, we would buy outfits from Forever 21 to wear that weekend. And we low key knew that we.

[Sushmita]

Might wear them a couple more times.

[Dustin]

But that was going to be it.

[Sushmita]

We just can't live like that anymore.

[Dustin]

Which honestly, like when I got off of that treadmill, I felt so relieved. I think it's kind of interesting to look at your wardrobe as this ongoing relationship rather than a relationship that you break like you break off every season. You're like, sorry, we had a good time, but you have to go now, I'm bringing someone else in to take your spot. But working in fashion, that's what we wanted people to be to do. We wanted you to look at your jacket from last year and say, oh well, that has no place in my future. But really what we need to do is pick things that we could see ourselves wearing for a long time, even though we know nothing is carved in stone. You might move, your body changes. You get into a job where you can't wear that. Nothing is perfect. We have to stop seeing things in this binary. But we also have to look at the long term a little bit more, which is scary. Anytime I have to think about like what I'm going to do in. If I make plans with someone a week from now, I'm stressed out about it right now. What if I get sick?

[Sushmita]

What if I'm not in the mood? What if I'm tired?

[Dustin]

What if something comes up? What if I get a huge zit? I don't know.

[Sushmita]

Looking at the future is really, really hard.

[Dustin]

We kind of got to do that with clothes.

[Amanda]

Yeah, definitely. I think that we need to look at the future, especially right now. I'm working on an affordability series. I think this is really important for people who have felt that they haven't been able to participate in ethical fashion before. So money and cost, these are things that are just on the top of my mind. And it's hard to have that future based thinking when you're dealing with financial scarcity. But it's, it is really difficult. At the same time, I think that if you have a toxic relationship with fast fashion and ultra fast fashion, you are buying things that are not gonna last. Well, they might last for a long time because they're polyester. They'll be on the, they'll be there. Yeah. But then they're not good quality, they're difficult to wear. Especially like you were saying, in the summer, in the winter they're not going to keep you warm enough. And so I think that when it comes to money, we have to be thinking about how can we switch that budget that we're spending on fast fashion and ultra fast fashion for those of us who are able to. How can we put that money towards more sustainable options, hopefully towards an ethical brand. And if not an ethical brand, could we look at a secondhand option? And you know, I think that sometimes people like, especially when you're in a larger body, that's too simple. Like it's, it is really, really difficult. But if you've ever been on the Shein app or the Temu app, I've been on it on like an incognito browser because I, I don't want them to have my data. But these websites are built for addiction.

[Dustin]

Yes. I mean they gamify it. Yeah, it's wild. I have also spent some time on both websites and I was, it's, it's like, it feels like A video game. Because I feel like there's so much stimulation happening in like every corner of the screen. You start to feel kind of like you're in a different reality. It's. It almost feels like what you're doing isn't real.

[Amanda]

Definitely. And I think also a lot of people say that these websites are really convenient and they're so easy to access, but I found them completely over stimulating. And it's strange to me that people say that shopping secondhand is really time intensive or like they don't have the mental energy to shop secondhand. I'm like, how do you shop on Sheen?

[Dustin]

Like a gazillion things to sift through. I know. I feel like if you were saying I. There's this really specific thing I have in mind. It would take you hours on Shein. I can't even. Temu is one of those things where.

[Sushmita]

I can't even look at it for.

[Dustin]

More than two minutes. I tried. I wanted to educate myself about it so I could talk about it. And I was like, wow, this is like how do people buy things from here? It was too much.

[Amanda]

Definitely. I think like going back to the secondhand thing. I know a lot of people say that it's really, really hard to shop secondhand when you need a larger size. And I do agree with that. Especially if you're going onto the secondhand platforms directly. But if you spend some time on them, you can find strategies you can set up. I don't know about other ones, but I use Metacari and you can set up like filters, save searches. So even if there's nothing, nothing in your size at that time, in a few weeks there might be. And you really have to play like the long game when it comes to thrifting.

[Dustin]

Yeah, it's the long game for sure.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And I think that when people say like it just takes too much time. I think that if you were to spend less time on the ultra fast fashion websites and just even just a few minutes on the second hand platforms beforehand, I feel like people would be really surprised.

[Dustin]

I think so too. It's intimidating at first, but like you said, there are all these tools that make it more streamlined in the future. And I have like watched searches all over all of these websites for very specific things. I'm looking for, you know, something that I think about a lot when it comes to fast fashion as a whole is fast fashion makes billionaires out of the people at the top of these companies. But all their money comes from the working class. Whether it's People sewing the garments, doing labor in the offices, or working over their money for this stuff. When we think about ourselves having less money, being part of the working class, I think it's time for us to sort of lean into the rage of it all. That we have been ripped off for years and years with this low quality shoddy clothing that we're supposed to rebuy over and over again. We have less money, they have more money by selling it to us. And sometimes I think that maybe what could maybe bring around the most solidarity on this issue, really activate us all to get involved, is the anger at participating in exacerbating wealth inequality by sort of being scammed by all these bad clothes for so long. That's what I'm getting like really. I'm getting really riled up for an afternoon in a karaoke bar.

[Amanda]

I think the other part of it that really upsets me is that ultra fast fashion has degraded the entire industry. And Amanda, you probably know a lot more about this, having worked in fast fashion. But even just looking at the secondhand options, it's really rare to find good quality clothes. And I'm not even just talking about fast fashion. Ultra fast fashion. The way that they have produced and the way that they've cut costs through using, you know, less quality materials, obviously exploiting labor, it's changed the way that all brands produce.

[Dustin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And so even thrifting, like it's not a magic bullet. Sometimes if I go in person, there is so much polyester, so much. And it's really hard to find good quality stuff. It's really difficult. And so I get like, I get if you have not experienced wearing a well made garment and all you've had is ultra fast fashion. I grew up on fast fashion and thrifted goods. And if you don't really know the difference, it's hard for us to really think, is it worth it to buy from an ethical brand, a sustainable brand, and to pay full price? It's not just a mind shift. It's just a huge, huge difference in what you've been experiencing and what you could experience. And like you said, the anger is that people should have access to good quality clothes. We should all have enough disposable income in order to support decent business. It shouldn't have to be fast fashion or nothing.

[Sushmita]

Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Selena Sanders, a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover [e-mail] late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram. Eat to the Party people. Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Page is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Paige is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help, guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us [e-mail] and find us on Instagram Ylanpage Life and Style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram at Salt Hats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace located in the historic Eastern market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online [e-mail] and find us on Instagram. ThumbprintDetroit Vagavan Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage dtlv, recently opened the first IRL location located in the arts district of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtlv and keep an eye out for their website. Coming fall of 2022.

[Amanda]

I don't own any Shein, obviously. And the only time that I've experienced it is when I see it in in secondhand stores.

[Dustin]

So much of it. So much.

[Amanda]

And it's hard because I don't really go shopping in person secondhand anymore because I'm mid fat. But in Japan we don't really have categories. But obviously because of the culture here, I am considered bigger than mid fat. And it's really hard to like get into the changing room and it's just a bit of a faff. So I don't go, you do have.

[Dustin]

To put a wig over your head, which I think is really important for everyone to know.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it's to like stop the makeup getting onto the clothes I get. And you have to take your shoes off. You need to get into like this little cubby hole, put the bag everywhere. It is an experience.

[Dustin]

It deters me from clothing shopping, to be honest. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have to put the bag over my head. I'm gonna run into the wall every.

[Sushmita]

Time I turn around.

[Amanda]

It's uncomfortable. It's a really uncomfortable experience. And so the other thing that just started to frustrate me is when I walked into these stores, 99 of things would not fit I including the men's section. I shot both sections and the 1% that did fit were mostly acrylic sweaters and a lot of them were Shein. And the thing is, is that from far away you look at a pattern and you're like, hey, that's cute.

[Dustin]

This happens to me all the time.

[Amanda]

And then I go up to it and I'm like, oh, it's Shein. And then the first thing I think is that's just been taken off some poor independent designers website and just copied and it makes me even more unlikely to buy it. Like there's so many layers, obviously the poor quality materials, the fact that they exploit workers and the people right at the top are just making bank. But the other thing as well is that they steal from artists and designers.

[Dustin]

From our friends, you know, even if they're just our Internet friends. I just feel like it's every day and I'm tired of it. It's not.

[Sushmita]

It's not okay.

[Dustin]

Because once again, I say this every time I post about Shein, but I mean it. Her fast fashion, broadly is that fast fashion is not doing you a favor. Shein is not doing you a favor by copying some artist or brand's work and selling it to you cheaply. They're not doing you a favor. They're doing themselves a favor because now they're going to sell that and make money. And what they're doing is a lot of harm. And I was telling you before we started recording that I will often see people like saying like, oh, I found this dupe of this silky dress on Shein, and here's some other dupes that I found.

[Sushmita]

And then people will go buy four.

[Dustin]

Five, six of these dupes that are anywhere from 30 to $60.

[Sushmita]

By the time these they do that.

[Dustin]

They could have bought one of the original dress.

[Sushmita]

And I think it just goes back.

[Dustin]

To this like more is more mindset.

[Sushmita]

That we need to get rid of.

[Dustin]

You don't need six or seven copies of a selkie dress.

[Sushmita]

If you really want a selkie dress.

[Dustin]

Just buy one and just wear it. Wear the out of it.

[Amanda]

Yeah, for sure. I think obviously the less is more is a great philosophy if you can stick to it, which is hard. It is hard. But the other thing as well is I think that we don't have a lot of self trust when it comes to fashion. And I think that is because there is this huge divide between the fashion people who wear the designer stuff, who know who's going to be on the runways. Like, they have the knowledge and we give them credibility. And it feels like a lot of us are just trying to emulate them. And carving out our own fashion identities means stepping away and trusting ourselves. When we say we like a design or a color, we can choose which one. Instead of having to buy the seven dresses, we know ourselves well enough that we can actually make those decisions. And I think it's part of the culture, like a culture of being continuously overwhelmed. Like if we look at just streaming websites, we no longer like go to Blockbuster and choose one movie to watch that night. We just have a gazillion options that tie like, that takes up so much mental energy to sift through. And I think fashion as a whole is really overwhelming in that same way. And it's hard for us to make that one decision. So instead of deciding on that one thing, we do the volume shopping and buy tons of different colours, different options. Obviously it costs more, so we go for the low quality option, but it's just signalling that we don't trust ourselves.

[Dustin]

I think that's a really great point. I would say, even for myself, the past couple years, I felt more in tune with what I like and I wear what I like in a way that I never have before. A big part of that was actually moving out of the fashion industry, working for myself, no longer having to worry about what do my co workers think, what is my boss think. It also helps that I live in the middle of nowhere, so people don't see me very often. But suddenly I was like, oh, this.

[Sushmita]

Is what I love. I don't even have to think about it anymore.

[Dustin]

I know it when I see it. And I'm not trying on different versions of myself in hopes that one of them fits. I think that's something that comes with time as well and circumstance. And there's certainly a level of freedom that we don't all have to get there. But I think it's something to sort of strive for and think about. When you're starting to second guess what you like, because what you like is the best thing for you, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

[Amanda]

Yeah, for sure. I think that it is hard to kind of stick to what we like and to make those intuitive decisions, especially when we're bombarded by marketing and Pinterest and now AI Fashion. So there's even more messaging that we have to compete with. And I think that once we invest more time and energy into figuring out what we like and reevaluating our wardrobe, seeing what we feel good in, that's where we can slow down our consumption as well. It goes hand in hand.

[Sushmita]

And I think figuring out what you.

[Dustin]

Like is actually a really fun project. I think it's what Pinterest was originally designed for and then it turned into like another way place to sell us stuff.

[Sushmita]

But I even think back, like, were.

[Dustin]

You ever into Tumblr?

[Amanda]

Yes and no.

[Sushmita]

I feel like at any given moment.

[Dustin]

I had like four Tumblr accounts because I was.

[Sushmita]

Every one of them was hoarding different.

[Dustin]

Like, images and ideas of things I liked. I didn't really like, communicate with other people or.

[Sushmita]

But I had like one Tumblr that.

[Dustin]

Was just pastel stuff.

[Amanda]

For example, there is a Gen Z version of Tumblr. It's not Tumblr, it's something else. Oh, I'm gonna have to look on my phone later and tell you. But it's kind of the same idea. It's very curated mood boards. It's not Pinterest. And I think, like, you can't really comment on things. You.

[Dustin]

That's great.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

What I liked about Tumblr and even Pinterest, which I don't now, I mostly just use Pinterest for work stuff. It has lost its appeal to me. Every once in a while I get on there and have a good tear.

[Sushmita]

Is that it helped me start to.

[Dustin]

See patterns in the things that I liked. And it helped me understand what appealed to me and why. You know, you can go way back and people would make collages out of magazines. Right at the close first jamboree, we had like a collaging session where it was just collage things that represent to.

[Sushmita]

You what you like.

[Dustin]

It's really cathartic to just start to see what you like with all the noise removed. Because I definitely felt like I spent a lot of my life knowing what.

[Sushmita]

I liked, but also feeling like what.

[Dustin]

I liked was wrong because the rest of the world was telling me I should like other things.

[Amanda]

I think if you're chronically online as well, it becomes harder and harder to decipher what you like because there's a point where there's so much inspiration, you can't sift through it all. And again, it erodes that self trust. I feel like the collages sometimes are a more effective way to really figure out what you're into, the colors that you like, and not feel completely overwhelmed. I think I was telling you about fashion substack. Before I got onto substack. I felt really secure in my fashion identity. I felt like I was really on this path of reconnecting with myself. I know the silhouettes that I like. I know the materials, the colors. And then as soon as I started consuming content from other creators who were buying from more expensive places, from designer places, I started to feel insecure, like maybe my style isn't good enough, or I would question what I was buying and sometimes even feel influenced to replicate some of the same things. And I could see the same sorts of mechanisms that were happening in terms of, you know, fast fashion consumers wanting to emulate the rich happening to me, those feelings of insecurity, of almost like fashion loneliness and questioning my style and not trusting in what I was wearing and not trusting the past me that made the decisions to invest in my wardrobe as well. I constantly felt like. And I constantly still feel like I need to buy the next thing in order to fit into that fashion world. And I can relate to maybe what is going on in consumers minds because we're constantly told that what we wear and our wardrobes are not enough. And there's always a new way or a better way to fit in.

[Dustin]

I totally, totally understand that. You know, I had overall, for quite some time, felt pretty secure and like where I was and like, I had figured a lot of stuff out about what I wanted to wear. But my entire career I felt that sense of like, classism and the fact that, like, I don't even know that much about luxury clothing because it's just, why bother learning about something that's not gonna be a part of my life? And I've.

[Sushmita]

I've hit a point where I was.

[Dustin]

Reconciled with that and very secure in who I was. And then last January, I drove up to upstate New York to be a part of lobbying for the Fashion Act. And as soon as I got there, I felt mortified. Like I wanted to hide in the back because there are a lot of influencers there, wealthy people from the fashion industry. People were wearing very expensive clothing and shoes. I was wearing this like thrifted J. Jill dress, actually, and my only pair of black dress shoes, which I've had for like six years. So they were a little skeptical. And I felt I was wearing this coat that I had said to my husband, this is the nicest winter coat I've ever had. Is that brand Gani? And I bought it secondhand. It's a really, really warm, really nice coat. And someone was actually like, oh, Connie, I would like never buy a coat that cheap. People were being shitty without meaning to. I think everybody had like perfectly done nails and makeup and hair. And I just felt horrible about myself the whole day. And I felt nervous speaking in things, even though I'm probably more qualified to talk about a lot of these issues than someone who just has. Not just.

[Sushmita]

I don't want to minimize their work.

[Dustin]

But who has like a style, a huge style following on Instagram, like actually know stuff about the industry, which is what we're there to talk about.

[Sushmita]

Right?

[Dustin]

But I felt when someone said the weird thing about my coat, I was like, this is the last. Cause I feel terrible even though I'm excited about this movement. And I never said anything to anyone about how I felt. But A few months later, we were supposed to go back up there and.

[Sushmita]

I happened to sprain my ankle that.

[Dustin]

Week, which that like pushed me over the edge. I was like, I can't also be hobbling up and down these stairs, but also be everybody's like white trash, like sidekick. Because that's how I felt before.

[Sushmita]

I'm not going.

[Dustin]

And we're getting ready to start another lobbying season. And I'm still in my mind, like, how am I going to reconcile this? How am I going to show up as my authentic self and not feel bad cuz I'm not wearing like thousand dollar shoes? I don't know yet. This, this world is. This is a world of sustainability is hard.

[Amanda]

So I manage. Just to clarify, this was actually one of the people who was part of the lobbying group?

[Dustin]

Yeah, this is real. Yeah, I know, I know. Everybody there was very wealthy, or at least seemed very wealthy. Like if they were wearing secondhand, it was secondhand luxury, right? Which is not. That's not accessible to most people. I felt like I was the only person there who, at least on a surface level, was working class. It felt very strange.

[Sushmita]

Of course, when you have more money.

[Dustin]

It'S a lot easier to be an activist. That could be a whole episode in itself. Right. For someone like me, it's like I'm literally taking a day off of work and making a living to go show up for this. Like, it's a big deal.

[Sushmita]

And you know, as I came back and I was like sort of processing.

[Dustin]

That whole event and how this is still a movement that's really important to me. I'm gonna show up for the lobbying days this year. I'm going out to all the meetings. Like I really want to get the Fashion act passed.

[Sushmita]

But it made me feel like when.

[Dustin]

I was there, how grateful I am for my like my actual community, my actual slow fashion community. And how many of us would have felt like an outsider in that situation as well?

[Sushmita]

And it made me think about how.

[Dustin]

So many people who maybe haven't met all of us yet feel like outsiders because they just assume we're like that, that we're gonna make fun of your gawney coat. Even though we're adults, we're gonna be.

[Sushmita]

Like middle school, you know?

[Dustin]

And it made me really come back and think, like, okay, can you. Community is more important than ever. We should be supporting one another, not tearing one another down. We really need to make people feel good about what they have, what they can afford, and how they can be a part of this.

[Sushmita]

If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Close Source is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank CAS or Blanket Coats by cas, is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram at Blankcas and a website will be Launched [e-mail] Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com. saint Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every [e-mail] with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram at Wet Evens. That's where St. Evans Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram countryfeedbackvintageandvinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color Obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for Rainbows with a side of Giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram at republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com picnic wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity Future Vintage over Future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign [e-mail] to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com how do we make sustainable fashion slow fashion more inclusive? How do we stop making it just the realm of the rich and thin and young and whatnot?

[Amanda]

You can only be part of the ethical fashion movement if you can afford to buy from ethical brands.

[Sushmita]

Yeah, I agree, I agree.

[Dustin]

I also think like I Always see.

[Sushmita]

Secondhand as like a really big part of this because we know that the most sustainable clothes are the ones that already exist. And I think continuing to get more people comfortable with shopping secondhand and showing them how to do it. And also for all of us who already shop secondhand pretty enthusiastically and have been doing it for a long time, we have so many tricks. It's a skill. What we've learned. Right. And sharing that with other people I think is super important. I also think not stigmatizing like where you have to shop sometimes. Like one of the questions I get most often is where can I buy ethical bras or underwear? Right.

[Dustin]

It's one of the hardest problems to solve.

[Sushmita]

Sometimes it just means you have to.

[Dustin]

Buy fast fashion underwear and just take.

[Sushmita]

Really good care of them.

[Dustin]

You know, like we have to do.

[Sushmita]

What is in within our realm of access sometimes and not be so hard on ourselves.

[Dustin]

I think it is, it's like stop.

[Sushmita]

Stop looking for perfection in a world, in a system that does not set you up for perfection.

[Amanda]

Definitely. It's really interesting because I actually just did a bra roundup a few weeks ago. And the thing is, with ethical and sustainable brands, there are a lot of compressive options. So we're talking like sports bra crops in fabrics like bamboo jersey. But when it comes to more traditional like underwires, it's not going to happen. And so the more specific you get, the harder it is to find a style. And I think when it comes to things like disability and needing a front closure bra, ethical and sustainable options in larger sizes, they don't exist. And it's really hard when you have this idea of moral perfection when it comes comes to consumerism because at the end of the day, none of us can be morally perfect. Everything that we consume in the global north has been tainted in some way.

[Sushmita]

Yeah, it's true, it's true. You know, I did a whole episode a few months ago about one of the most frequent I. I see this more on TikTok than on Instagram or Threads. One of those frequent sort of like excuses for like shopping from Shein or Temu or what have you view is well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. I'm sure you've seen this 9,000 times. And I think on one hand, touche, as you just said, everything is tainted. On the other hand, that doesn't mean we can't dream of a better future and changing these systems, which means when we can, when we have the option of a better decision, being able to make it that's really impactful knowing that of course it's the same time we're not going to be able to. I mean, the perfection is impossible.

[Dustin]

Right.

[Sushmita]

And accepting that, but not letting that be defeatist.

[Dustin]

Not being like, well, we're all doomed anyway.

[Sushmita]

Because another excuse I see is, well, humanity is going to go extinct soon anyway. So get your Teemu hall if you want. You know, there's, there's, there's an in between zone there.

[Dustin]

Right.

[Sushmita]

And we need to occupy that space where we're like, we're trying really hard. We know it's not always going to be perfect.

[Dustin]

That's okay.

[Sushmita]

We're not all doomed if we're all trying and still have that hope.

[Amanda]

Yeah, definitely. I think just because we're saying don't strive for moral perfection doesn't mean we're saying don't try it all.

[Sushmita]

Yeah, no one's saying that. And I think that's really important because often I'll see people who are saying, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism aren't wanting to have a heady conversation about the systems of capitalism at all. What they're saying is like, well, I give up. That's what it usually is. And I, I don't want us to give up. But we also, I think we're more prone to giving up if we feel like we're expected to be perfect and we can't be.

[Amanda]

Definitely. But I think this, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. The thing that's doesn't really make sense to me is then people like, okay, let's then defend exploitative capitalism. Like, it's really strange. It's like, okay, let's hardcore now support the worst of capitalism.

[Sushmita]

Oh, I know. I mean, yeah, I agree. I'm like, there's. The logic has broken down there. But that's what I'll see is like. I remember specifically doing this post about Temu. I don't usually post very often on TikTok because it's, it's too wild over there for me. But I did share this post about TEMU and it went viral and like tens of thousands of people saw it and liked it or commented on it. And it was kind of overwhelming for me for a few days. And every once in a while that post will start picking up again. I'm like, oh no, not this. And what I saw was a lot of people being like, well, there is.

[Dustin]

No ethical consumption under capitalism.

[Sushmita]

So I just placed a TEMU order, which is depressing.

[Dustin]

Right? I saw a lot of people being.

[Sushmita]

Like, yeah, well, what about prison labor in the United States? Well, what about Nike? What about. I'm like, yeah, I talk about all those things too. This is one post about Temu. Go look at the rest of the stuff. But it wasn't because the people were showing up to be like, well, what about Nike? Because they're a problem too. They were showing up to be like, well, what about Nike? So I may as well shop from Temu. And I think that maybe you don't need to buy anything from Nike or Temu, and that's okay too. But rather than shutting yourself down and being like, I'm here to fight or make you feel bad for caring.

[Dustin]

Why.

[Sushmita]

Don'T you think about like one small change you could make? And that's, that's where it gets frustrating. But I also think if you've ever dated someone that all your friends hate and you know how that felt and how you felt like you couldn't talk about it with them, and you were doing a lot of mental acrobatics to tell yourself that that person, they didn't understand what it was like when you two were alone, or it was just that he loved you too much for him to be able to like understand it or whatever nonsense you tell yourself. This is what people are doing with fast fashion too. They're sort of doing mental acrobatics to make it okay to not have to change sometimes because change is hard or it feels hard.

[Amanda]

Change is definitely hard. And so I do think that we need to give ourselves grace. Especially in the early stages of changing from fast fashion culture. Especially if you're like really embedded.

[Sushmita]

It's hard.

[Amanda]

Yeah, for sure.

[Sushmita]

It's a whole pattern of behavior that I think has been hammered into our brains since we were little kids. And like, I mean, I grew up in the United States, so all Saturday morning was was cartoons and advertisements for cereal, candy and toys. And it would fill me with this overwhelming desire for stuff every Saturday that almost made me feel like I was going to explode. I think that fast fashion at its peak made me feel the same way for sure.

[Amanda]

And I think that a lot of people kind of think that having a lot of stuff is a form of abundance as well. Like almost like they've made it. The more stuff they have, they've made it. But then it just becomes this never ending treadmill. Like you just need more and more stuff. And of course there is like the high of shopping as well, the joy of shopping. And I don't think that personally I stopped loving to buy Things. I still enjoy buying things.

[Sushmita]

I don't think anyone loses that.

[Amanda]

I think, if anything, switching to secondhand and buying from ethical brands has intensified my joy because there is more of a history with each purchase. Especially something that I really love is when I support a South Asian brand that's homegrown. And knowing that there is a story behind the materials and the way that textiles are made just makes it feel more special. And, like, when it comes to pricing, you know, all of these things, they sound like, oh, they're going to be really, really expensive. But a lot of the things are the same price as what you would buy in anthropology. So in a way, I know that money is a really sensitive topic for people, and I just want to say that not everyone can relate to, obviously, my journey in the same way. But I know there's also people out there who could afford to buy from these smaller brands, these ethical brands. But it just takes time to make that shift and to transform the idea of what is valuable in your mind.

[Sushmita]

Yeah, I think it does involve some, like, sort of unpacking and also, like, understanding the truths about the things we're being sold. I used to be obsessed with free people, and I would, if I was having a bad day, go to free people and splurge on something. And I would wait for the stroke of midnight on the day after Christmas for their big 50% off sale and go wild. Like, I'd be planning what I was going to buy all day. And then after working for the parent company for a long time and seeing.

[Dustin]

That it was where this stuff was.

[Sushmita]

Made, the way the company made decisions about it even just like, to be honest, the sort of culture of fatphobia within that brand, it wasn't appealing to me anymore. And now I would go into the store and rather than being like, ah, everything here is so exquisite and special, I would think this kind of stuff kind of sucks. Like, I would start to see its shortcomings that I couldn't see before. Like, oh, it doesn't even have, like, it's a raw hem. Like, it's not even finished, or this looks like it's sewn a little lopsided, or I could buy this anywhere. And that I came to that total, just, like, change in how I viewed that brand by just knowing about it. And I think that that can be a really big help for if there's like a. A brand that you're in an abusive.

[Dustin]

Relationship with, a toxic relationship with, maybe.

[Sushmita]

Do some more learning about it and maybe that brand for you is shein maybe that brand for you is Anthropologie, who knows? But learning more about it can start to make you see how special all these slow fashion, these ethical brands are.

[Amanda]

I think for me, when I started buying from ethical brands, so I've talked about this before, but I did a two and a half year no buy before I could actually afford my first ethical purchase. So I don't say that I'm poor. I don't want to cosplay poverty because I know how difficult it is. I've been in situations before in my early 20s when I was in like a very difficult financial situation. And so I don't want to pretend that, you know, I'm in that same situation now. Right, right, right. And I think a lot of people actually do do that. When they talk about needing fast fashion, they, you know, pretend that they're in a different class than what they actually are. And that is because sometimes there is a lot of scarcity envy and people want to seem more relatable so they talk about affordability in that way. That aside, I think when it comes to buying ethical fashion, like for me it was scary to make that first purchase and the way that I did it, the way that I saved up was not buying anything for two and a half years and then I finally made the jump. And unfortunately the other thing with financial scarcity, even if you're not in a really difficult financial situation, all of us are feeling scared about our financial futures. Every single one of us.

[Dustin]

Everyone.

[Sushmita]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And so it makes it hard, harder to splurge or to make one big purchase. And the other thing as well is this idea of loss aversion. And it means that we are risk averse. We don't want to make the mistake of buying something that costs more and then having to return it or having spent that money and it doesn't fit the way that we want it to fit. And when, when you buy from cheaper brands like fast fashion, it's less risky because you're spending less money. Even if you buy multiples of things and all of them are terrible quality, there might still be one or two things that you feel are good enough. So it is really scary to make that first purchase and even the second purchase and the third purchase. But what I will say is when you compare the quality between, you know, 100% polyester blend, something with a lot of elastin that doesn't fit well, or, you know, it's too baggy or too tight or you know, the seams are in the wrong place, there's threads coming off compared to something that was made just for you in dead stock material. And something like linen or cotton that feels breathable, that feels really, really good to wear. And you know, the people who made it, you know, the people behind the brand, there's just like a world of difference. And once you start buying from ethical brands or sustainable brands or even switching to not perfect sustainable brands like you're mentioning parade before, when it comes to affordability, there are different types of brands, different levels of due diligence when it comes to workers, and some of them are going to be cheaper than others. So even when you buy from those brands, I still think the quality is going to be better than fast fashion. And once you start making that shift, it just starts to become more natural and less scary. I think when it comes to growing a movement from the ground up or, you know, I think even if we were to separate this from everything is political, of course, but if it was just about the fashion, if we were to say we just want amazing designs, I think the people that are doing the most interesting things are the independent designers.

[Dustin]

Agree.

[Amanda]

And one of the things that I found is Temu, especially when I got my targeted ads, it would be images that were ripped off. Yeah, ripped off. Australian designers that had independent, like surface textile designers. So they would be the most amazing prints and they would come up and I would do like a reverse image search and I'd find the small brand where that print would come from. And obviously they stole it because it was so exciting. And so this is the thing which I don't understand. There's so many contradictions when it comes to fast fashion defenders. Like how they say that the style for slow fashion or ethical brands or independent brands isn't good enough. Well, I don't understand why ultra fast fashion would then have to steal those prints. Those styles they don't even like, do an interpretation. They just take those images straight off the website and upload it onto their.

[Sushmita]

Oh yeah, that's. I mean, I think that's a really good call out too. And the reason that they do this is because people buy it. Right. So obviously this stuff is interesting. And I can just say on a higher level, as someone who still has to pay attention to what all of.

[Dustin]

These fast fashion brands are selling, they're.

[Sushmita]

All selling the same stuff and it's really boring. Where I see the most interesting, unique, creative designs are with these smaller brands and designers who are also, at the same time not only creating art, are trying to do it in a Better way within a system that does not make it easy.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Sushmita]

And so once again, like, to me, the future is all of these small.

[Dustin]

Brands because that's where I see the.

[Sushmita]

Innovation across the board, creatively and ethically. And I, I, I, I just, I get sad sometimes because I'm like, are they gonna go away and are we only going to be able to.

[Dustin]

Well, first off, I don't know what.

[Sushmita]

Timu and Sheen are gonna sell and there's no small brands to knock off anymore. What will we, what. It just makes me, the whole thing.

[Dustin]

Makes me so sad.

[Amanda]

I think the, the shift that we're going to see happen is we're going to see people who are more financially comfortable starting brown brands. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it means that people who, you know, may not have the same financial, economic status or background, they're not going to have that chance to, you know, have their designs out there to put their art out there, because they may not get the support that they need to be stable in their business. And we lose out.

[Sushmita]

We do lose out. Absolutely. I think about that kind of thing all the time. I remember my counselor in college, I really had originally wanted to go to med school and he was like, people from your background don't get to be doctors and you just need to accept that. And at the time I was like 18, so I was like, okay, guess life sucks. In retrospect, I'm like, we need more low income people to be doctors so people can get better care from people who understand them. Like what if of terrible flawed logic.

[Dustin]

Right.

[Sushmita]

And I no regrets on not becoming.

[Dustin]

A doctor because I'm really squeamish.

[Sushmita]

I don't know what I was thinking.

[Dustin]

If I hear someone throw up, then I throw up.

[Sushmita]

So it wasn't a good career path for me. But the point being is that like, we want people of all types to be involved in all of these industries and all of these arts because that's where we get the best stuff.

[Amanda]

But it comes like full circle, right? Because when we talk about challenging fast fashion, the alternative is a labor centered industry, a people centered industry where we treat workers fairly, but we also want to see artists and designers being treated with dignity and respect and, you know, being supported by those of us who appreciate them. And I think that when we talk about class, it doesn't make sense that fast fashion has become representative of working class.

[Dustin]

Yeah, agreed. But it has, right?

[Sushmita]

I mean, say it out loud. I'll tell you when you're In a room with people who have money, who came from money, they. The derision they have for fast fashion is palpable. I mean, they will say it out loud. A boss at one of my jobs who came from very much money, who could not understand why anyone wasn't flying first class to Japan. You know, like, she was just like, what? It's only like five, six thousand dollars. She was like one of those people she would always call, like fast fashion cheapo creepo with this just like sneer of disgust. Meanwhile, that's what we were buying to sell to people. And I want to be clear that, like, everyone thinks of fast fashion as a thing for the pores. And I think that's one of the reasons that these companies feel like they don't need to up their game because we'll just take whatever they can sell us, that we have less taste, that we have less value.

[Dustin]

And I say that having worked inside these companies and the lack of respect.

[Sushmita]

For our customer was, well, it was shocking. We'd be like, we're obsessed with our customer, even though we think she's really stupid and has bad taste. Seriously.

[Amanda]

But I also think that fast fashion has completely infiltrated our culture. Like, you know, especially in the uk, you go to the local shopping center and there's a primark. So you can't escape it there. In the US obviously they have H M and they have like Old Navy, I guess as well is mainstream majority fashion at least. So you can't escape it in person, you can't escape it online. You can't escape it. When you look up anything on a search engine, the first thing that will come up is fast fashion. It is everywhere. And I think it's like we deserve more. But we also can't escape from the messaging. And somehow we as like the public majority in the global north. I don't know how we have decided to defend these brands when really what we should be aiming for is better quality, more size, inclusivity, more style diversity, more interesting clothes, and yeah, just better fun fashion. That's what I feel like we should be fighting for. And when it comes to money and affordability, we should then be centering like all the systems in place that are suppressing our wages as a collective. And that means supporting unions. I think that if you can support workers in your country and see them as your peers. Same with the fat community. If you can support your peers in that community, then you can also see workers in other countries as your peers, your global peers as well. And something that really really upsets me is that a lot of the time we have these hierarchies, like, you know, the countries manufacturing in the global north are going to be better quality than China, India or Bangladesh. It's not true. I think that there is so much craft craftsmanship and also technical expertise. The question is not about the skill. The question for me is about treating these workers with dignity. And also it's not charity to pay people fairly.

[Sushmita]

No, no, Yeah, I think that's so true. And I think also the materials that these crafts people are given to work with, you know, in fast fashion, one way we would get the expense under control immediately was swapping to like the cheapest fabric we could find. So we're also not giving people great products to work with in the first place. And I think that that results in an even lower quality end product. But I tell people all the time, because, you know, after doing this now for like getting close to five years.

[Dustin]

The same, the same responses pop up all the time.

[Sushmita]

And still I see this one less now. But here and there people will be like, well, if we made all of our clothes domestically, we wouldn't have this problem. I'm sure you've seen that too. And like, actually, you know, when I was working at Nasty Gal, we made a lot of clothes in la and they were really bad because it's, it's what we were paying people, the conditions they were working under, the amount of time that they were given to sew this stuff and it was the materials that we gave them to, to work with. This is such a complex issue. But imagine how horrible it must be to work 14, 16 hours a day for little to no money on product that is going to go in the trash can really, really soon. Like, if you've ever had a really frustrating day, I just don't think that this even compares. And like, this is beyond that. And it's like every day of these workers lives, everyone, everyone involved just deserves better than that.

[Amanda]

Definitely. And I think it's across the board, right? We want better conditions for people in the US as well. Like you were saying, fast fashion brands that do produce domestically doesn't mean that they're not taking shortcuts.

[Dustin]

Yep, yep.

[Sushmita]

I mean, now fortunately, there is, there are more and more policies in place that are preventing that, but that is thanks to a lot of work and advocacy over the past couple of years. And I will tell you what is happening. Some of the brands that were the worst about exploiting workers in the us, always in la, it seems like, like fashion NOVA actually moved. What did they do? They moved their production out of la.

[Dustin]

Because the prices that they offered in.

[Sushmita]

No way allowed for even remotely, even just for people to be paid the legal minimum wage. We're not talking about a living wage here. Were saying 10 bucks an hour or whatever, which is still not something you can live off of. In la.

[Dustin]

They couldn't even make the pricing work, paying that to their workers.

[Sushmita]

And that tells you how little they were being paid.

[Dustin]

And once again, it's just thinking about, we're all workers, whether we like it or not. It can sound like a really disparaging term for us, but we're all working for someone. We all deserve to be safe in our jobs.

[Sushmita]

We all deserve to be able to.

[Dustin]

Live off of our jobs because otherwise.

[Sushmita]

Why are we doing them, you know?

[Dustin]

And that's everyone. That's everyone. And so I know sometimes it can.

[Sushmita]

Be really hard to see that, but if you've ever had a shitty job where you got underpaid or treated poorly.

[Dustin]

You'Re already halfway there to understanding why.

[Sushmita]

We talk about this so much.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. I'm sure that many of us have had our share of shitty jobs.

[Sushmita]

Yeah, for sure. I think actually, if you've ever had a shitty job, welcome to the slow fashion community. Because you already know. Right? Okay.

[Dustin]

Well, one last thing I just wanted.

[Sushmita]

To ask you is where can people find you, how can they support you? And what are you working on right now?

[Amanda]

The best place to support me is on substack. I go by the same handle on all my social media. So substack. Ethical Fat Fashion. I'm on threads. Ethical Fat Fashion. I also have an Instagram too. Same thing. Ethical Fat fashion. The only thing I will say is that I am less active on social media these days because I'm trying to put all my energy into my sub stack. And that is the best way to support me.

[Sushmita]

Great. Thank you so much. I had so much fun.

[Amanda]

Me too.

[Sushmita]

We didn't have any soup though.

[Amanda]

No soup.

[Sushmita]

Thank you so much to Sushmita for spending an entire afternoon with me. I had so much fun. It was completely a highlight of my trip and I hope to hang out with her again when I return to Japan next year. Year. That's tentatively my plan. Please check out her substack and support her work there. All of this will be linked in the show notes, what she is doing, which is helping people find their own slow fashion way of life at any size. That is extremely important work. And it has great value for all of us, no matter where we live or what size shape our bodies are. It's more important than ever that we support people doing work in the realm of slow fashion and sustainability and social justice, all of these things, because we need that education and motivation more urgently than ever, especially as we're facing down another four years of Trump here in the United States, which impacts everyone in this world, no matter what country they live in. And yeah, I hate that for us. I hate that the United States has such a huge impact on the rest of the world and often very bad impact. But here we are. The idea of community and information and how we can and should use our platforms, even if our platform is just our immediate friends and family or if it's like a massive, like millions of people platform, how we should use that has been on my mind constantly since the election. I'm really excited to say that this week I'm actually meeting up with someone who is part of an institute that works here in the United States that focuses on how we can get true information easily to more people, right. Without them needing to throw money into it or search, do a ton of fact checking to make sure the information they're getting is correct. I'm really excited because this is something that's on my mind and I want to be part of those conversations, right? So I'm thinking a lot about this stuff. I have had a lot of time to process and think about the election and just where we as individuals fall into that, how community is a part of that and how we use community to make change going forward. I'm doing more reading about community organizing right now, and next year I will be doing a lot more conversation and, you know, event building, community building around these ideas. So stay tuned. I'm still in the, like, figuring it out phase. I'm going to be completely honest with all of you. I have a lot of anger right now and I have had since the election and possibly even leading up to the election. You know, so many people here in the United States showed us that human rights don't matter as long as eggs and gas are cheap. And so many people showed us that they would rather vote for a fascist than a woman. And so many people said, my vote doesn't matter, so I'll stay home. So many people heard both sides are the same and they thought, so I just won't vote because it doesn't matter. I'm going to tell you, despite all this anger that I have, strangely, I'm less angry at the people who voted for Trump because they were probably always going to do that. And I'm. Before we go further in this conversation, I want to be clear. I don't care who you voted for or didn't vote for or what have you. I don't care what your political beliefs are. If you're listening to this podcast, if you follow me on social media, then you and I have one very important thing in common, which is we want a better world, right? We want a better future for ourselves and future generations. People we know and people will never meet. And we can see eye to eye that change needs to come, right? So if you're already filled with rage about what I'm about to talk about, I just want to be clear that I don't care who you did or did not vote for. I don't care what your party affiliation is, because we care about doing something better. And that's what this is all about, right? And I do know that we have at least one listener who listens to Joe Rogan and Glenn Beck. So I want them to feel comfortable here too, because clearly there's something happening here on Closed Horse that matters to them. So, yeah, I'm less angry at the people who voted for Trump and I'm more angry at the people who didn't vote at all. And I'm extra angry, like next level, at the people who used their platform, whether it was 100 people or 100 million people, to discourage others from voting or at the very least create confusion about who should get our votes. Your platform, no matter the size of it, is actually a massive responsibility. Right? You need to really think about the messages that you're putting out there in the world. And I'll tell you, from months leading up to the election, I was seething with frustration as I saw various leaders within the slow fashion and environmental justice movements, among other leftist things that I follow that interest me on the Internet. I saw them coming out to say that both sides are the same and that it was a waste of time to vote for either candidate because they didn't earn our votes. These were people who I respect. Who you respect. Smart, awesome people and their opinions have power in our own decision making processes, even if we're not consciously aware of it. And I know that because I saw others sharing their posts and repeating their statements and I saw people literally say, I'm not voting because why bother? I can't. I have to vote my conscience, which at this point is voting for no one. One of the accounts. And I'm not going to go through here and name name names because ultimately, like, we don't. There's enough ugliness on the Internet. We need to think about moving forward. But there is one that I'm specifically going to name because I want to use it as a great example here, and that's an Instagram account called so Dot Informed. It's run by a white woman named Jess Natale. She's a person who will be largely unaffected by a Trump presidency. And for years she has been sharing information about current events with a particular focus on what's happening in Gaza since about 2023. And I appreciate the work that she's doing because she brings this stuff to the forefront for people who might not ever see this information. So her work has tremendous value. I actually stopped following her, I want to say, six months ago, eight months ago, because what I had been noticing is that in her comment section she would let people say the most. I mean, to be honest, the most fucked up, hateful shit. And I feel that is very important. Obviously, I'm not as high profile as so informed, but I think it's very important to monitor your comment section and, you know, block, delete, hide things that spread hate, right? Or misinformation. And I was really frustrated that she wasn't doing that. And I was like, I just don't want to see it anymore because I'm. I'm, like, angry every day about it. It's not good for my mental health. So anyway, in October, specifically on October 28th, and I saw this post, even though I don't follow her, because someone shared it, she shared a post that essentially discouraged people from voting for Harris and really quite directly steered people toward, I think, maybe voting for Trump or voting for Jill Stein or not voting at all. I'm not 100% sure what someone was supposed to take away from it other than that they shouldn't vote for Harris. Because the argument was that voting for Harris meant being a genocide apologist. Well, no one wants to be a genocide apologist. Are you fucking kidding me? It. The post raised the question, or, I don't know, implied that a compassionate person couldn't both do everything they could to try to end the genocide, while also conceding that a vote for Harris would protect immigrants, trans people, women, and many other vulnerable people here in the United States and globally. It seemed to ignore the fact that perhaps a vote for Harris was the equivalent of putting the oxygen mask on, you know, on the plane, on yourself first, so that you could help others if we're not actively fighting to survive and protect our immediate neighbors here in the United States, then we have more resources to actively fight to protect the people experiencing genocide in Gaza, Sudan, Congo, and the Uyghur Muslims of China. Just the beginning of that list, right? When I think back to the last time Trump was president, we spent four years just trying to take care of people and stay kind of okay. We didn't actually, actually accomplish any. Any momentum going forward, any positive change. We were just like trying to be kind of okay. It was exhausting. So that account so Informed has more than 3 million followers. And not only does that kind of information create confusion amongst that 3 million people, that confusion spreads as those followers share those posts or have IRL conversations inspired by those posts. We talk here all the time about the things that we share and discuss online, and how we lead by example actually has real life ripple effect, right? It's the same thing with these kinds of posts. So Informed was not the only account doing this, and I've unfollowed so many people. Another person with a few hundred thousand followers who is incredibly talented, super smart, highly respected, and works in the sustainable fashion space was sharing similar arguments, particularly on threads. And when someone would say, okay, but scientists say that Harris will be better for the climate, and here's why. And that's why I'm voting for Harris or anything of that nature, she would respond with nastiness or bullying, like she didn't want to hear it and she didn't want people to even share information around it. That person has actually been a guest on this podcast and I pulled her episodes before the election because it no longer felt like the right fit. There's no bad vibes there or anything. I just was like, this isn't the right fit for me anymore. This isn't the right fit for either of us, right? The thing about her is that her online community is far more engaged than so informed. So I'm sure they listened to her even more. And they too felt confused about voting, which I'm sure they discussed online and with people in real life. I actually saw friends of Dustin sharing these kinds of ideas. I saw my own friends doing the same. And even on election day while I was in Japan, I almost lost my shit on someone on threads. A Canadian who posted, quote, let's just be perfectly clear, all of the liberal white women voting for and endorsing Harris are just saying that they only care about themselves and that everyone else's rights and freedoms don't matter. That about sum it up question mark. Yeah, I lost my shit as much as you could on threads. I actually responded to that person because I was like, this is exactly what we don't need right now. I said, okay, I'll bite. As a white person assigned female at birth, there will probably never be a presidential candidate with values as progressive as mine. But I also accept that I am on the far left and this is a democracy with many other opinions. So I vote strategically. Why did I vote for Kamala? Because even more people will suffer under a Trump administration. Trans people face imprisonment, migrants face deportation. Many people will lose their health care and die of prevention, preventable diseases, myself included. By the way, as a cancer survivor, it's like damn near impossible for me to get health insurance without the aca. So that'll be fun. And yes, I will be holding a grudge. If the ACA ends, the list goes on. Same sex marriage will likely be overturned. People with uteruses will lose control of their bodies. Many people will lose their jobs. Under Trump's economic policy, the poorest will suffer the most. He's planning to dissolve the Department of Education and every agency working on climate change. And oh yeah, the genocide in Gaza is going to get a lot worse. So, yeah, that's why I voted for Kamala. Not because I'm selfish, but because I care about people and our planet. And I mean everything I just said right there. And I'm sorry I'm cursing so much, but I'm very riled up about this. Here's the thing. I should have been saying that a long time ago via clotheshorse and my own personal relationships, because you know what? A lot of people didn't vote. Period. Tens of millions of people did not vote. And many of them cared about the same stuff as me. They definitely cared about what is happening in Gaza, but they felt that there was no one they wanted to vote for. If you're being told you're selfish for voting for one person, even though it feels like the better option, who are you going to vote for? No one wants to be selfish, right? Many people heard that both sides were the same, or it didn't really matter because the whole world was and is going to shit. And you know what else? Beware of anyone who isn't offering you suggestions for action. Who is saying don't vote this way, but then isn't giving you direction about how to cast your vote. If you notice, just about every Clotheshorse Instagram post shares information, but then ends with here's what you can do. Because information without action well, it just creates confusion and anger. It doesn't lead to change. And ultimately people sort of emotionally burn themselves out and lose interest. It felt odd to me in the times leading up to the election that people who I valued as the sort of like adults in the room, these people who are no doubt smarter, more interesting and more influential in this world than I will ever be, were taking an everything is shit stance rather than a more pragmatic approach. The reality that voting is a strategic decision, not a romance, not a marriage, not a declaration of best friends forever or a blood vow of loyalty. Because in a two party system, you vote for the person whose values are closest to yours. And you hope that over time, with work and persistence, their policies shift your way. Because here's the thing, Real change takes time. No matter what that change is that you want, right? You and I don't have to agree on what change is important, but one thing we can both agree on is that it's going to take time and work and commitment to make it happen. And that's the thing. Because even I know I'm talking about the election right now. But this is so much more than that. Because even after a big election like that, the work doesn't end. You stay active, you organize within the community, you call and email elected representatives, you protest, you get more people involved, you make changes in your own life and on and on and on. Voting isn't the solution, it's just step one. And maybe as part of that work, you begin to organize a true third option that reflects your values. Sure, we did not have that option in this election. Regardless, it's going to take work and time. And that work happens all year, every year, not just during presidential election years. The work we're doing here, it's not just voting. It's not just buying less stuff or mending or learning how to sew or shopping secondhand. It's all of this. And it's more. It's doing what we can 365 days a year. It's a whole list of things we do that over time, when we're doing them all together, makes this world better. As I've said, I have been frustrated about this for months, what was happening around the election. But as a person with often debilitating anxiety, I stayed quiet. I was afraid of dealing with Internet outrage and trolls in the comments section or all caps dms. I get enough of those already. And I just did not think I had the mental health to manage that. Shit was getting really ugly online and I just didn't want to deal with it. Also, my thinking was, if that person who hundreds of thousands or millions of people follow and respect is saying this thing, who am I to say something otherwise? So I stayed quiet and I just hoped that everything would be okay, rather than speaking up with my thoughts about voting and activism and how we, we all play an important role in the world around us. Now, in retrospect, I feel like a coward. Remember I said I have so much anger. A lot of that is towards myself. I'm angry at myself because I should have spoken up. From 2016 to 2020, people suffered who didn't need to suffer. People died who should still be alive. And everyone, myself included, was frightened and angry. Every single day we fought non stop just to keep people kind of okay and safe. Dustin and I saw so many friends die. Totally preventable deaths of despair, overdoses and suicides even. I reached a Point in 2017 where I fantasized about ending my own life because I couldn't handle how fucked up and ugly the world was showing itself to be. I was exhausted. And beyond that, we were on the brink of bankruptcy from medical bills because Trump had been trying so hard to dismantle the ACA that insurances raised their rates and reduced their coverage. Things were really, really hard for us. It was just so hard to exist, much less work towards something better. And I just don't think we made any progress during that period. Why wouldn't I do everything in my power to prevent that from happening again? I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things. A tiny grain of sand in the Internet desert. But that doesn't mean I should stay silent. I always tell you to lead by example within your sphere of influence. So yeah, I'm angry at myself for not doing the same. If I had spoken up, would the outcome be different? Probably not. But at least I could say that I was brave. And I can't say that now. I'm going to tell you I have reached that point in my life where I am largely invisible as I move through my days. I'm no longer young, I'm not pretty or rich or famous. I'm not exuding sexy pheromones. So most people just don't even see me unless I'm wearing a really wacky outfit. Then they do. I'm going to tell you though, I noticed this phenomenon in Japan where white men, tourists literally walked into me as if I weren't there, as if I were a ghost. And yeah, that pisses me off to no end. One guy stepped firmly on my foot and like, his shoulder went into my head and I was just like, I'm right here. Which is why I have to ask myself, why do I let myself be invisible about things that matter, right? There are places where I can be visible and loud because I'm still here and so are you. I've spent my life trying to be as small and quiet as possible because that's what the world told me of supposed to do. Starve myself, stay quiet, be nice and don't upset anyone, please everyone. And hope that somehow doing all that would keep me safe. Well, fuck that, because it's time to be as loud and rowdy and huge as possible. I'm here to take up so much space and make a ruckus. And I'm here to invite you to do this same thing with me. Beyond election Day, beyond politics, beyond everything, it is time to be loud, persistent, brave. Do you feel invisible? Unheard? Scared? Angry? Let's work together to ensure that better things really do happen for us, for the people around us, for the people we have never met and might never meet, and the people of future generations. We are still here and we're going to do some serious shit in 2025. I can't wait to watch it all happen. Thanks for listening to another episode of Closed Source. Written, researched, edited, hosted all the Things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty if you liked what you heard, leave a Rating a Review subscribe, tell your friends you know it's the same stuff that every single podcast tells you to do, and thank you in advance for doing those things. If you'd like to support my work financially, there are many ways you can do that. You can find that in the show notes, you can find it on my bio on every social media platform, and you can find it at my website, clotheshorsepodcast.com lastly, but of course, always super mega. Never leastly is that grammatically correct. Who knows? But thank you so much to Dustin Travis White for our music and our audio support, especially this week where he's going to be really pulling some sort of trickery. And thank you to all of you for listening for yet another week. I'll talk to you all next week. Bye.