Episode 221: Slow Fashion & Inclusivity with Nico and Donnelle

Summary

Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty: Episode 221 – Slow Fashion & Inclusivity with Nico and Donnelle

Release Date: December 24, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 221 of Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty, host Amanda Lee McCarty delves deep into the critical topic of inclusivity within the slow fashion movement. Despite a brief delay caused by unexpected plumbing issues at her historic farmhouse, Amanda kicks off the episode with enthusiasm, emphasizing the importance of addressing inclusivity to foster a sustainable and ethical fashion future.

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The Necessity of Inclusivity in Slow Fashion

Amanda begins by outlining the core principles of slow fashion, highlighting its multifaceted approach:

• Secondhand Shopping: Prioritizing preloved items to reduce waste.
• Making and Upcycling Clothes: Encouraging personal craftsmanship and repurposing existing garments.
• Shopping from Ethical Brands: Supporting local and small businesses that adhere to ethical practices.
• Mindful Consumption: Focusing on quality over quantity to change our relationship with possessions.

She asserts, “Slow fashion should be everything that regular old fashioned, which is essentially, almost completely fast fashion at this point is not. It should be inclusive, diverse, welcoming, fun and creative” ([07:45]).

Amanda emphasizes that achieving a critical mass of diverse individuals is essential for dismantling the fast fashion industry, urging the shift towards a more inclusive slow fashion community to ensure its success in combating overconsumption and environmental degradation.

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The State of Size Inclusivity in Fashion

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing the current state of size inclusivity within the fashion industry. Amanda references a Vogue Business report on spring/summer 25 runway shows, revealing disheartening statistics:

• 0.8% plus-size representation ([15:30]).
• 4.3% mid-size representation.
• 94.9% straight size (US 0-4).

Model Emma Davidson from Dazed comments, “It feels like brands were turning their back on inclusive casting for a while, but this season I sat in my seat at shows where bigger models had been present and it was so disheartening to see no representation” ([20:45]).

Amanda criticizes the industry's narrow focus, stating, “Clotheshorse needs to stop centering thin, young, white, cisgendered women in brand marketing and in social media” ([29:50]).

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Conversations with Guests

Nico Herzetti – Founder of Foreia

At [23:56], Amanda introduces Nico Herzetti, the founder of Foreia, an online platform designed to assist plus-size and gender-expansive individuals in building a sustainable and ethical wardrobe. Nico explains the motivation behind Foreia:

“I started Foreia because I just tried to make a list of size inclusive brands that I knew that were also gender inclusive...” ([24:17]).

Key Points Discussed:

• Size Labeling Chaos: Nico shares the frustration with inconsistent size labels across brands, making it challenging to find reliable sizing ([26:37]).
• Normalizing Body Diversity: Foreia aims to showcase diverse bodies to reshape perceptions of what is "normal" in fashion ([28:03]).
• Vetting Brands: Foreia meticulously vets brands to ensure genuine inclusivity and sustainability, avoiding scams and promoting transparency ([36:33]).
• Expanding the Market: Nico emphasizes the untapped potential in the plus-size market, urging brands to focus on larger sizes to build trust and loyalty ([52:44]).

Notable Quote: “Size Inclusivity is the first thing I look at, but then also like I'm looking at who's actually running this brand and how are they running it...” ([36:33]).

Donnelle Jagamin – Creator of Philly Plus Swap and Co-founder of Philly Fatcon

Amanda then welcomes Donnelle Jagamin, the creator of the Philly Plus Swap and co-founder of Philly Fatcon ([73:56]). Donnelle shares her journey:

“I started the plus swap in 2021... It was because people were venting about never being able to share clothes with anyone...” ([75:34]).

Key Points Discussed:

• Organizing Clothing Swaps: Donnelle details the logistics of running a plus-size clothing swap, emphasizing accessibility and community building ([76:24]).
• Challenges Faced: From venue issues, such as the sudden closure of the University of the Arts meeting, to logistical hurdles like limited restroom facilities ([83:20], [91:02]).
• Emotional Impact: Donnelle highlights the profound emotional responses from participants who finally have access to plus-size clothing ([84:00]).
• Philly Fatcon Growth: The evolution from a simple swap to a full-fledged convention, incorporating panels, fitness classes, and community networking ([89:25]).

Notable Quote: “There is so much privilege in the fact that I could do these things...” ([75:34]).

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Challenges and Solutions for Inclusive Slow Fashion

Both guests shed light on the systemic barriers within the fashion industry that hinder inclusivity:

• Inconsistent Sizing: The lack of standardized sizing makes it difficult for plus-size individuals to find well-fitting clothes ([25:00], [33:04]).
• Economic Constraints: Small, inclusive brands often struggle with limited marketing budgets, making it hard to compete with fast fashion giants ([38:49]).
• Event Logistics: Organizing inclusive events requires careful planning to ensure accessibility and accommodate diverse needs, which can be resource-intensive ([83:32], [91:02]).

Solutions Proposed:

• Platforms Like Foreia: Creating centralized directories that make it easier to discover and support inclusive brands ([24:35]).
• Community Events: Hosting clothing swaps and conventions to build a supportive network and provide tangible access to inclusive fashion ([75:34], [89:25]).
• Educating Consumers: Encouraging mindfulness in consumption and promoting the value of quality over quantity ([60:14]).

Notable Quote: “Brands that are size inclusive have also tended to be the ones that care about the people who help produce their products...” ([65:00]).

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Conclusion and Call to Action

Amanda wraps up the episode with a heartfelt call to support small, inclusive brands and participate in community-driven initiatives like Foreia and Philly Fatcon. She highlights the power of collective action in driving systemic change, emphasizing that the future of fashion lies in inclusivity, sustainability, and community engagement.

Final Thoughts: “The future is what so many passionate, talented people are building within the slow fashion community right now...” ([123:10]).

Amanda urges listeners to:

• Support Small Businesses: Emphasizing the importance of backing ethical and inclusive brands.
• Participate in Events: Encouraging involvement in clothing swaps and conventions to foster community and access.
• Stay Optimistic: Believing in the collective power to effect meaningful change despite existing challenges.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Amanda (07:45): “Slow fashion should be everything that regular old fashioned, which is essentially, almost completely fast fashion at this point is not. It should be inclusive, diverse, welcoming, fun and creative.”
• Emma Davidson from Dazed (20:45): “It feels like brands were turning their back on inclusive casting for a while, but this season I sat in my seat at shows where bigger models had been present and it was so disheartening to see no representation.”
• Nico Herzetti (26:37): “Size Inclusivity is the first thing I look at, but then also like I'm looking at who's actually running this brand and how are they running it...”
• Donnelle Jagamin (75:34): “There is so much privilege in the fact that I could do these things...”
• Nico Herzetti (36:33): “Size Inclusivity is the first and the first thing I look at, but then also like I'm looking at who's actually running this brand and how are they running it...”
• Donnelle Jagamin (84:00): “...there were people who were like, oh, my gosh, I've been looking for this. I've been wanting to try this brand.”
• Nico Herzetti (52:44): “I would say focus on the larger sizes and get them right because that's a wide open market.”
• Amanda (123:10): “The future is what so many passionate, talented people are building within the slow fashion community right now...”

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Supporting Small Businesses

Amanda concludes by highlighting and thanking various small businesses that support the Clotheshorse podcast. She encourages listeners to explore and support these brands, fostering a more inclusive and sustainable fashion ecosystem.

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Tune in to Episode 221 to gain valuable insights into making the slow fashion movement more inclusive and sustainable. Discover how platforms like Foreia and community-driven initiatives like Philly Fatcon are paving the way for a better fashion future.

Transcript

[Amanda]

Foreign. Welcome to Clothesforce, the podcast that, well, until, like, I don't know, an hour ago, didn't have running water. And that's one of the reasons this week's episode is coming out a little bit late. But the good news is we do have running water now. It was a whole thing. We've had a really, really cold few days and we live in a rented farmhouse on a much larger farm with barns and like, many barns, like three of them, and fields and I guess also a very complicated water slash well system. This house is from the 1890s, so things have. Things are complicated. Something broke. And finally, after the guy who came to take a look at the situation, I mean, he was literally driving from barn to barn, going back and forth across the road, dealing with some goats, all kinds of stuff. He finally fixed it for it. So now we have water. And I'm really excited because I was like, okay, well, maybe Christmas is ruined. And all the food I bought for Christmas, how are we going to cook it because we don't have water? Anyway, crisis averted so far. Could change Christmas. Not ruined. Anyway, I'm your host, Amanda, and This is episode 221. And as I mentioned in last week's episode with Sushmita of ethical Fat fashion, the next few episodes are part of a series about inclusivity within the slow fashion movement. Because the reality is, in order to dismantle fast fashion and all of the egregious waste, human exploitation and harm to our planet that comes with it, we must get most people to adopt a slow fashion way of life. And as we have discussed here many times, each person's version of slow fashion can and will look differently, right? There are all these different components of it. It's shopping secondhand first. It's making clothes, and really everything else lasts as long as possible with care and repair. It's sewing and making our own clothing and all of our stuff, if you want to. It can also just be you're making pickles, which I, you know, do myself. It can be upcycling and repurposing. It can be shopping from ethical brands and small businesses, especially if they're local, and just generally being really mindful of the stuff in our lives, how long it's in our lives, and where it goes when we're done with it. No matter what combination of things a person chooses as part of their version of slow fashion, it all results in changing our relationship with stuff, right? Whether that's clothing or throw pillows, lipsticks, whatever it is, we are over consuming. And as part of changing that relationship with stuff, everyone will be buying less new stuff in the first place because the stuff will be better. Right. And we'll be taking care of it longer, longer. And sometimes we'll just buy second hand stuff. And it's also just sort of changing where that stuff comes from. Right. It's a lot. In my opinion, slow fashion should be everything that regular old fashioned, which is essentially, almost completely fast fashion at this point is not. It should be inclusive, diverse, welcoming, fun and creative. It's not about selling a commodity. It's about making people feel good, making them feel included and excited and confident. It's about fun and exploration for all people of all sizes and genders and ages and backgrounds. The very definition of inclusivity is including all types of people. Everybody is welcome in the slow fashion movement. And yes, slow fashion has made a lot of progress towards a more welcoming and inclusive community over the past few years. It has changed so much since I started making clothes horse in 2020, and I'm so glad for that. It still has a long way to go until everyone can see themselves as part of it. We will not be successful in our work toward a better future because we need this critical mass of people on board. Right. And we need a lot of people and that means it's a lot of different people. So I wanted to end this year and begin next year with conversations about where we are with a more inclusive slow fashion community and where we should go Next. I think 2025 is going to be a pivotal year in so many ways, including I think we're going to see a large social trend away from Amazon and Temu and Shein. I think people are just getting sick of it. I think they're finally starting to see that these places are not actually selling very good deals, no matter how low the prices are. And that really, in a kind of roundabout way, these companies are actually kind of ripping everyone off. Right. And these are things that you and I already know. But I think I see it. I actually see this becoming a more mainstream conversation right now, which bodes really well for 2025. I think we are seeing, although maybe you don't feel like you're seeing it right now, a large social shift into shopping small and local. And I will tell you not to brag, but all of my small business clients are having the best year that they ever had. And part of that is, yes, like strategy and putting systems in place and things like that. But it's also that people I think are starting to come around to this, that there is more quality, more longevity, and just like better vibes attached to shopping from smaller brands. That said, there are still plenty of people who are shopping from Amazon, Shein and Temu, and we need to steer those people away. I also think, because we're already seeing it this year, I think we're going to see even more of this next year. We're seeing even more people getting into mending and shopping secondhand, making their own clothing. We're seeing these ideas that have been kind of in our slow fashion bubble, becoming more mainstream. This is a really big deal. It's easy. I know I feel this way a lot to feel as if you're drowning in bad news right now. But I want you to know that if you sort of put down your phone, close whatever news site or news app you're reading right now and actually look around you, these things are happening. And there are things to feel optimistic about. I know it's hard, trust me. I have to have a talking to with myself just about every day about this. I will tell you that. Another really good sign that tells me that 2025 is going to be a big year of progress is that people are finally getting sick of the egregiously low quality clothing currently offered by most retailers. And with enough of them getting sick of that getting fed up, it's going to force these brands to do better. And these conversations are also becoming way more widespread, way more mainstream. And when these sorts of social trends develop, that's how we see actual permanent change happening, like systemic change. So that's pretty exciting to me too. And I also think we're starting to see legislation passing like the Fashion act that will finally regulate this entire industry that is out of control. The legislative session in New York starts in just a few weeks, and we are getting ramped up to do a ton of work to pass the Fashion act this year. Well, when I say this year, I mean 2025, but it's basically 2025 now. And I feel that getting that legislation passed is going to have a domino effect of more and more states doing the same. California is already in conversations with all the people working on the Fashion act to get similar legislation going there. And if we could get New York and California to pass this kind of legislation, we're going to see systemic change within the fashion industry. So, yeah, I feel really hopeful that we're about to see some major change happen next year because we're already seeing promising momentum moving forward. Right. Even just in the last few weeks. We see Starbucks and Amazon workers on strike. Right now, as I'm recording this, we see more media outlets talking about the low quality of clothing. They're talking about shifting Shein, they're talking about fast fashion, they're talking about how unreliable product on Amazon is and so much more. This is a big deal when your aunt or your grandma starts talking to you about Shein or Temu or Amazon. It's a move in the right direction. And we also are seeing more and more people making slow fashion lifestyle changes. Whether that is mending or learning to sew, or shopping secondhand or shopping small or wanting to learn more about ethical brands, or not ditching a bunch of stuff at the Goodwill. These are all good things. And once again, I ask you to give yourself the pleasure of sitting back and seeing, seeing this progress. Because for me, it, I don't know, it's the fuel that keeps me going. And I think, I know it's really hard right now to feel optimistic about next year. And trust me, there's going to be all kinds of dark shit we're going to deal with too. Some of it is a carryover from this year and I'm sure some of it'll be brand new. But there are also these moments of promise and we can't let ourselves forget that. Meanwhile though, the fashion industry, right it is as clueless and stuck as ever. I actually don't see a great year for it in 2025. And that industry is particularly just so tired, so old timey when it comes to inclusivity, especially when we're talking about inclusivity in terms of age, race, disability and of course, body size. In October, Vogue Business shared a size inclusivity report based on the spring summer 25 Runway shows. And what they saw was, well, it wasn't surprising, but it remains depressing. I'll share the full report in the show notes, but this paragraph really summarizes it. Of the 8763 looks presented across 208 shows and presentations, 0.8% were plus size. And by the way, plus size for our purposes right here just in this paragraph is US 14 and up. 4.3% were mid size. By the way, the definition here of mid size is us 6 to 12. And 94.9% were straight size, us 0 to 4. I mean, I'm just going to tell you here, for my intents and purposes, straight size is anything up to a 14. You may argue otherwise. I'm really sick of people who are size 6 being called mid size even I think it there is a big difference between being a size 6 and being say a size 12 in terms of what you can buy and how often you see yourself represented on brand websites. And it is not fair or even accurate to group a size 6 with a size 12. Just just in terms of how the industry sees you. You know, back to this article here. Plus size representation is level with last year at 0.8%, so less than 1%. Mid size representation has inched up from 3.7%. Okay great, so now it's 4.3. Interestingly enough, partly driven by the use of muscular men in co ed shows who typically present as mid size. Oh well, that wasn't the win that I thought it might be. Are you depressed yet? Well how about this? There also appeared to be more straight sized models at the extremely thin end of the scale, emma Davidson, the fashion features director at Dazed, told Vogue Business for this article. It has felt like brands were turning their back on inclusive casting for a while, but this season I sat in my seat a few times at shows where bigger models had been previously present and it was so disheartening to see no representation. This season feels like the nail in the coffin. Torrin Northam, who's the head of TikTok at High Snobiety, really summarized where and how the fashion industry shows itself as just being so foolishly out of touch and stuck in the past. She said, it's sad to see an industry that made a lot of progress over the past few years revert back to the toxic, unhealthy ways of the past. But it feels like those in charge still see being thin as being beautiful and being more fashion. Okay, I added the pronunciation of fashion in that way, but I think it made sense. What's interesting to me is not what any of the stuff I just told you because I am not surprised by it at all. And I'm sure you aren't either. But what is interesting, or maybe ironic I guess actually is that even if the fashion industry feels like some clueless dinosaur churning out constant collections and showing them on skinny young white models. I mean seriously, I saw a high fashion billboard in Tokyo that was like rage bait for me because I saw it like five times that seemed to feature a 12 year old. I mean 12 tops, maybe a 10 year old, but definitely not being like portrayed as a child being dolled up like a grown ass woman. Just ridiculous to me. But even if fashion is just so decrepit and so out of touch, it still impacts everything we see in stores and television and movies and on social media, the influencers are getting skinnier, all while continuing to show us more stuff we should buy every day. It feels so tired to me, but it's still affecting all of us. It's affecting how we feel about ourselves and how we exist in our day to day lives. It's also affecting what we do or do not put on our bodies. So if slow fashion is the opposite of the fashion industry, and it should be, then it needs to stop centering thin, young, white, cisgendered women in brand marketing and in social media, media posts, and even in the kind of content shared by the organizations within the sustainable fashion realm. Seriously, start to take a look at the content created by some of those big sustainable fashion accounts. And by the way, every time I say sustainable fashion, I am literally making air quotes with my fingers. Just, just so you know, start to take a look at that content that they're churning out there because it primarily focuses on the same type of person over and over again. And if you don't fit into that box, you don't feel like you can be a part of it. And trust me, I say that because I have felt that way too. A few weeks ago, right after I returned from Japan, I recorded a roundtable discussion with some people who I think are working really hard to make slow fashion more inclusive and therefore more successful at achieving its goals. First, there's Marlee, who is a personal style coach and host of Style Me Slowly, which is a podcast that shares sustainable, sustainable size, inclusive brands and their stories. There's Nico, the founder and CEO of Foreia, a platform to help people find what fits their bodies, their style and their priorities and how we can support each other in the journey. Next is Lee To Han, founder of Hni Collective, a fashion service agency with a focus on size, inclusivity and sustainability. There's Donnell, the creator of the Philly plus swap and one of the founders of Philly fatcon. And lastly, but most definitely, not leastly, someone you all know very well, Maggie Green, the Halloween queen, a clothes horse all star by far, but also someone who works very hard to help people get dressed in a way that makes them feel their best. So just a real banger of a group here. The discussion will be coming your way in the new year and it's such a great conversation. Seriously. But first, as we lead up to that, I want to get started by giving you a chance to get to know the participants better because they're all doing such rad stuff. They all needed their own one on one conversation with me. So this week you're going to meet Nico and Donell. Both of them are so smart, so thoughtful. I can't wait for you to hear what they have to say. And they both work on very cool projects that are life changing for so many people. But before we jump into that, it's time to listen to another audio essay from a small business owner within our community, Sarah of Somersaults. I really love her audio essay because she talks about food, which honestly faces many issues of quality and accessibility that are similar to clothing. And I love how her business is working to make better food more accessible to more people. So let's take a listen.

[Sarah]

Hi, my name is Sarah, owner of the company Somersaults. I hand make seasoning salts in Jacksonville, Florida using fresh herbs and peppers that I either grow myself or locally source from small farmers in the area. I was captivated by your theme of community because it's so important to me what I do and who I am. I started this business during the COVID times, just postpartum after I'd quit my job teaching trying to figure out what I was going to do with my time. I needed to find some community and so I started a business to just get myself back out there again and find some people to connect with. At the same time, I was working on trying to figure out a way to get my family the local food that I knew was available but was hard to find. So I started working at figuring out where there was farmers markets that I could go to and connect with those local makers in our community. So building community is really the backbone of our life. I come from kind of a chaotic family and so having a community around me is what supports me and my family and my life. My small business also fits into my community because a lot of the people that I've created in my personal community are also the people that I vend with, I attend markets with, I eat food from. They are the local makers that feed me and my family. And I've really become embedded in the local food community both because of my business and because of my love for local food. That is, deep down, my business benefits my community in a lot of ways. I'm providing a local clean seasoning option which is something that's not really available at the base level of of what my business does is making seasoning salts. But I'm also a local food advocate. I use my platform to try to bring awareness to local food options not just in my own city, but any city that anybody who follows me is in. I really want people to consider local options no matter where they are and consider where their food is coming from and how far from the source it is. As a former teacher, it's really important to me that my business gives back to the community again in lots of various ways. We support local markets, we support local food. I also attend and create my own networking events. I support local charities by attending their market events, Ladies Night outs, donating baskets. I love supporting LBGTQ organizations and groups that support food sovereignty, especially here in Jacksonville. I love supporting local farms. I source from them. I love, you know, telling people about eating local food and getting them from farms. So I really love that my business really does support and give back to the community in a lot of various ways. I would love to see my impact on the community just continue to grow. Ever since starting this business, I've always had a dream of being able to create a non profit that would hand in hand be a garden that I could use as a source of herbs for our business and also a community outreach outpost where people could receive classes on cooking and gardening or free therapy services. Because trauma informed therapy is something that is really important to me and my husband and my family and I think to our communities. And so creating that would be a way to create even more impact to our community over time. And I very loudly proclaim that I do things differently than a big business and that starts from the base level of the salts we make. I use local grown herbs exclusively. I try to make sure that I am creating a education system within my customer base so that they understand why I do what I do and they value that some flavors are seasonal. Because of the way that I source my herbs. I also don't use a co packer. I'm not selling in any large corporate grocery chains nor do I have the intention to ever do so. I believe that slow food is the answer to fixing our food systems holistically. And so I am loyal to local as an eater and as a consumer and also as a business owner. If you'd like to follow along my journey, learn about local food farming and how I make my salts, you can follow me at Somersalts. That's S U M M a S a L t S. I also have a website with all of my recipes and of course you can purchase my salts on there and that is www.someasalts.com. thank you for listening and I hope you look for the local option next time you need to make a purchase.

[Amanda]

Thank you so much Sarah for such an amazing audio essay. I know Sarah shared how you can find somersaults in her recording, but I will also link to her in the show notes. Go give her a follow. Go check out her website. She has some amazing things for sale, including dill salt. Yum. And she's got some great recipes on her website today too. I was going through the whole thing today, getting very, very hungry. All right, enough of all this. Let's jump into my conversations with Nico and Donell. We'll get started with Nico.

[Nico]

I'm Nico Herzetti. My pronouns are they, them and I live in Northern California in the Santa Cruz Mountains with the deer right outside my window right now. They're the little forest ponies. They're fantastic.

[Amanda]

They are forest ponies. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah, they really are.

[Nico]

Yeah, they definitely are. I'm the founder of foia, which is an online platform to help plus size and gender expansive people build a wardrobe that is more sustainable, ethical and that.

[Amanda]

They love and is. Is forea like brand new clothing or secondhand?

[Nico]

That's a great question. So the way that for you works is we list by brand and there are links out to obviously when brands are selling new, but whenever brands are listed heavily on secondhand sites, whether that's Poshmark or ebay or if they have a Facebook buy sell trade group, we will list those too. So you can find both on fior.

[Amanda]

That's awesome. So what motivated you to start forea?

[Nico]

So I started Foria because I just tried to make a list of size inclusive brands that I knew that were also gender inclusive or gender neutral in some way. And I figured I can think of a handful of brands and then I decided to go look for who else has made a list like this, what's out there? And as I kept looking I would find longer and longer lists at first from magazines, but then from folks within the plus size community itself who were trying to accumulate who is actually making stuff for us. How can we find them? How can we support them? The problem that I found with those lists was you really had to work super hard to find the brands that would fit your size because size labeling is so all over the place. So the example I give is I've looked at my measurements across 100 different brands and I am anywhere from a size large to a size 6X and none of those sizes are the dominant size. I think the most common size I came in at was 30% of the time. So like I don't have a typical size. And this was when, like before I had top surgery. So I was like proportioned. I was an hourglass plus size person. So theoretically I should have fit more things more consistently. So from that I basically said, how can we make this easier? How can we make it easier for people to find the stuff that fits them both their bodies, their styles, the priorities that they have, who they want to support, do they want to support women, Bipoc owned brands, queer brands. Like, how do we make this easier? And that's where for you came from.

[Amanda]

That's awesome. I think such a good call out the chaos in size labeling, because I agree. I mean, I tell people all the time, it literally means nothing. I actually, when I'm shopping in general, I always carry a tape measure in my purse for that exact reason.

[Nico]

Oh yeah.

[Amanda]

I'm glad that people are having more conversations about that because I think, like, we tend to have a lot of baggage tied up in what that tag says.

[Nico]

So that's. That's definitely true. It's. It's been interesting to talk to people who feel differently about this. So folks who have been used to shopping online only for a long time are. Are the folks who are like, I know my measurements, I know how to take my measurements. I know to look at size charts. Then there are folks who are kind of newer to this and are kind of moving into, my only option is online. Or more of my options are online. And there might be more feelings around that of why aren't there typical sizes feeling really caught up in what that size label says when you buy it. And it's. It's totally human and valid to feel that way. And the more comfortable you get with the fact that this is just a matter of how much fabric is required to make the garment that goes on your body. Like, the easier it starts to become to accept your body and to just focus on other things of like, how do I feel my best in my body?

[Amanda]

Yeah. Which is work. Right. Like, I. Oh yeah. I mean, I have to have these conversations with myself all the time. So.

[Nico]

Absolutely.

[Amanda]

Very, very normal to get really wrapped up in numbers. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Nico]

Extremely. We're encouraged to.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Nico]

There are whole industries that want you to worry about that, you know, so you have to do a lot of work there. And honestly, actually, that's another piece of what I wanted to accomplish with Fourier was to normalize body diversity and normalize normal bodies and let people see what it feels like to shop in an environment where you see more bodies that look like Yours and more bodies that look like more people. Right. So when you are used to only seeing those size 4, size 6 models and everywhere that you shop, regardless if they carry your size, if that's all you're used to seeing, that becomes your perception of normal. Compared to if you get the opportunity to see lots of different bodies and lots of different styles, all of a sudden that becomes normal. And that's a lot more reflective of the world that we actually live in.

[Amanda]

It's such a great call out to think about, like, seeing more bodies, more types of bodies, more sizes of bodies, because it really does change your perspective on it. For me, as someone who worked in an industry every day where, you know, the smaller you were, the more successful you would be, which is so messed up, but is the reality of even the internal culture of the fashion industry. It felt you start. I started to feel like, oh, everybody is a size 4 except for me and, like, maybe a few other people, and we're the problem. And then when you start to be exposed to, like. Like just leaving that industry and, like, going out in the world was like, oh, wait a minute, what the heck? Like, you know, and it was good. It was good for my brain.

[Nico]

Oh, yeah. And it's kind of funny because one of the things we talked about last night was the stat. 70% of American women and femmes are wearing a size 14 or larger. And often I'll say that, and people are like, really? Is that. Is that real? And what I'll say to them is, it doesn't feel real because when you go shopping for clothes, that is not what you see. But if you. I sat in the airport the other day. I was waiting for something, and I just decided to, like, watch each person that went by me. And I could see it in the real world. I was like, oh, yeah, like, totally. Chunk of these people are plus size big and tall. Like, that is normal. That is what we see. But we don't see it in this shopping environment. That's where it's weird. But we don't know that it's weird because it's been this way for so long.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. No, and it's interesting because, like, the internal culture of a lot of these brands are people who tend to be very small. And so they don't know that there's a world outside of it either. Or they maybe. They kind of know it's out there, but they're a little fearful of it because it disrupts what has been ingrained into them. And, you know, I'll Be the first to say, I'm a straight sized person. I have a ton of privilege. I can buy clothes just about anywhere I want. But because I wasn't a size 4, everyone who I worked with at my jobs where we were scaling up to larger sizes would come to me as the expert on larger sizes. They would be like, well, like, what do those people like to wear? I'm like, what do you like to wear? The same thing.

[Nico]

Yes, that is. That is the answer. That's absolutely the answer is that it's not. There's the same amount of diverse taste in the plus size community that there is in the straight sized community. And it's kind of odd that that's often not reflected. I have a lot of feelings about why that might be, or not even feelings. I have theories about why that might be and why it's developed that way. But one component that I think is really important to acknowledge is if you see yourself represented in fashion, those are the folks who've had access to play with fashion, who have lots of options available to them. That's who then goes into fashion. If you haven't had those options available to you, you're probably not going to go into that industry because it hasn't developed as an interest because it couldn't very easily.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Nico]

And so in those fashion programs, not only do you lack plus size people, you lack plus size education. So like at our local fashion program, I literally walked into the studio and I looked at all the dress forms and there were more than two dozen dress forms and the largest one had a 40 inch waist. That is not very big. That's like somewhere around an 18 maybe. I mean, that's not big enough.

[Amanda]

No, I mean that's relatively small.

[Nico]

Yeah, it really is. And so if those students aren't learning how to pattern and how to grade for when bodies have more mass on them sitting in lots of different ways, then you don't end up making clothes that those people are excited to buy, let alone the style component. Right. Like just the fit component, where we're selling these students short despite there being like an enormous market opportunity for them to break into. It's really disappointing.

[Amanda]

It is disappointing. And a lot of my friends who work in the realm of fit and technical design will tell you that that knowledge is at this point highly specialized and if you have it, you're this like unicorn for the industry and, well, good for them. Right. There's always work for them. But if we know that 70% of American people or you know, people who were Assigned female birth or whatever are a size 14 or larger, then shouldn't really, like, everybody know how to grade and. Right. It's. It's wild to me. It's just like, oh, we're gonna focus all our energy on this, like, really small group of people. And then, you know, it. I. I mean, this is something I talk about all the time, is like, okay, we have all these brands, like, way too many brands competing to sell clothes to the same, like, 30 people. And so they have to pull all these dumb tricks to get people to buy as much stuff as possible so they could drive sales when they could just dress more people.

[Nico]

Yeah, well, I mean, and that's rewarding all the. Bringing it into sustainability. Right. So they are going to do what they have to do to keep that cost as low as possible to sell to a small oversaturated market because. Because price is such an important differentiator.

[Amanda]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What brands are on for you right now? If someone is. Has a brand of their own that they would like to be a part of it, like, how do they get involved?

[Nico]

Yeah, literally reaching out to me is the way to get involved. If I don't know about you already, I have been so fortunate that, like, the people who are using fior are often telling me about brands that I don't. I haven't met yet, which is so exciting, and I absolutely love it. And honestly, probably one of my favorite parts of my job is getting to talk to people who are running brands, especially if they're doing it on their own. I've always loved that part of my work. I've worked for small businesses for a long time, and that has always been one of the most rewarding things. And to your first question about who's on F4 now? Right now, I just checked it. We're at 331 brands that are launching.

[Amanda]

Wow, that's incredible.

[Nico]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's pretty incredible. And I have a lot more in, like, my lineup to, to vet, because I do actually, like, vet them myself to make sure that we're not ending up with, like, scammy, like, brands that disappear because they were just like a TikTok. You know what I mean? Like, we're seeing a big rise in that kind of thing. So the focus has been first and foremost, brands that are more size inclusive. And we can talk about, like, what that, what that means for Foria, because I think that's a term that gets thrown around a lot without a lot of definition.

[Amanda]

Oh, totally.

[Nico]

Yeah. Size Inclusivity. Is the first and the first thing I look at, but then also like I'm looking at who's actually running this brand and how are they running it, like, what kind of choices are they making about inclusion and sustainability? So, so you will find brands like Old Navy or even Shein on Forea. And the reason that I do that is that I want to basically normalize all the incredible things that these small brands are doing that these huge, profitable, wildly valuable companies could be doing and are deliberately choosing not to do. Because oftentimes when you're just shopping from them in a silo, it's really easy to kind of like forget or justify or whatever. Like, oh, well, I heard this negative thing about Shein, but man, whatever. I really want this thing versus I really want to champion these smaller brands that are like, yeah, we're going out of our way to hire diverse models that are hard for us to find and we're paying them well because we believe in their work and we're working with factories that we visit on a regular basis. And that allows us to understand how ethical their practices are as opposed to the companies that are disclosing none of this information. And as you probably know, if they're saying nothing, you should usually assume the.

[Amanda]

Worst because definitely the reason things aren't.

[Nico]

Made in America is that we have laws that prevent bad things from happening that would make things cheaper.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Nico]

We've just exported that somewhere else where the laws are looser most of the time. So to answer your question, there's a wide variety, but overwhelm, I would say a vast majority of them are very small and medium sized brands that are not getting found because they don't have the marketing budgets of these bigger brands. And, and my goal is to help them connect with the customers that are going to be super excited that they exist and are like, where have you been all my life? I'm so excited to meet you. Like, give me everything you make. That's the dream.

[Amanda]

I mean, I love this because I feel that slow fashion, and especially slow fashion in terms of size inclusivity is. Well, industry is not really the right term, but is a world that is currently shared via lists. As you were talking about, like this person has a list and that person has a list. And you know, the reality is that the more lists you have to go around and collect in order to buy clothes, the more likely you are to end up shopping from Shein. Really, because it's a lot of work. And yeah, we all have other things to do, right? So I love this idea. I mean, what did you say? 331? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot of brands. That's a lot of lists right there. It is, right. And like these brands, they don't have money to market. They get drowned out, you know, so this is, this not only helps people buy clothes, which is great, it also helps these brands be seen and supports them and hopefully like continuing their businesses, growing their businesses, being able to dress more people and theoretically over time pushing these dumb bad brands out of the way. You know, like that's what I want. Right?

[Nico]

Yeah, yeah. I mean that, that's definitely the dream. Like the way that you could look at the like plus size industry as a whole is like you have the big players. So historically that's your Torrid and your Lane Bryant, like those are the biggest players. And then you have the new big players who are kind of, you know, we talked about this a little bit last night. Were kind of the plus size, fast fashion giants that are emerging. It's, it's. I'm very concerned about that. I think that is something that we're going to see over the next few years be a big problem. And actually I want to touch on. You asked about secondhand. We didn't talk about this last night a lot. But, but when I started working on this, my original goal was like, how do. And still the goal is how do we reduce people's dependence on things that are mass manufactured in unsustainable ways? Right. And one of the first things I looked into was like, hey, how do we fix our clothes? How do we alter our clothes? Like, how do we keep it for longer? And the thing that I consistently found is people weren't going to spend the time or the money to fix a crappy top they paid $5 for because they didn't value it. And it was so poorly made that it would be very difficult to fix it. And so.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Nico]

Yeah. And so the next question I asked is like, okay, well, who's invested in putting better stuff into the system? Because if you are straight size, you can go to a thrift store and find lots of options. I, the last time I went to a thrift store and found lots of options, it was because it was a plus size consignment store. And it was the most magical feeling because that didn't happen to me. Like I didn't have options to go secondhand. I had to buy new and I had to buy online. And that was really frustrating. And so what I want to see is like these smaller brands that are making things that are made to last get into the secondhand ecosystem so that plus size people have more options in those systems because they want to shop secondhand too. Just like style. They want the same options as their straight size counterparts.

[Amanda]

Totally. Like out here where I live, a lot of the thrift stores have a pretty decently sized plus size section. But it is all of those horrible brands that are like fly by night or Shein and are just so bad no one wants those clothes. Yeah, you know, I agree. I would love to see better options like on the second hand market. And that that is going to take some time. But where it starts with is with us when possible supporting brands who are doing things the right way and making product that lasts. So let's talk one last thing. Let's just talk a little bit about what size inclusivity means to you because you mentioned that. And I think I will tell you one of the things that I still laugh to myself about is about a year ago this sustainable brand called Woven reached out to me about being featured on Clothes Horse. And for one, I don't usually do that kind of stuff because you're like asking me to do like 20 hours of free work so you can get advertising which. But two, I looked at their website and I said your clothes only go up to a large or an extra large. Like I can't have a brand on my show that is not size inclusive. And they were like, well, we are getting really size inclusive. Oh, the other thing I'll say is I added. Should you extend sizing. I would love to talk to you about that. That would be amazing. So like, you know, if you go back and you start adding more sizes, come back to me, let's talk about it. That would be so inspiring. And they were like, we actually are already size inclusive because we have been adding extra large in more styles and we just shot. Oh this, I'm sorry, this term. I hate it so much. We just shot a body positivity campaign with a larger model and they sent me all of the like photos from it. And if this model was a 14, I would be surprised.

[Nico]

Yeah, I mean that's what's considered the standard for a plus size model is a 12 or 14.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I think, I think she was more like an eight, honestly.

[Nico]

Yeah, I mean honestly, if you think about it like that is the plus size industry replicates a lot of the same issues of the straight size industry. Right. So if the straight size industry is showing you models at size 2 or size 4, they're at the very bottom of the size spectrum. They're going to do the same thing with plus size. They're going to show the very bottom of the size spectrum. Yeah, it is an issue. So let's talk about how I think about size inclusivity because we're defining this term started was frustration and getting ads that would be from a brand that said, hey, we're size inclusive. And they might show maybe somebody who was a little bigger than that, 12 or 14. And so I would feel hopeful and then I would go to their size chart and I would be like, oh, I am at the top of your size chart. I am not. I am not the top of the size inclusivity spectrum. I'm at the bottom of it. I'm what's called a small fat. And so I know that if I am at the top of your size chart, you are excluding a whole lot of people in my community. And so I started to think about like, what does size inclusivity mean? And I kind of narrowed it down to a few key factors. One is the body measurements of your size chart. So not your size labels because I literally just bought a pair of pants the other day that I was a 5x in and they're 5x. Like didn't. Like, it's incredibly small. Like I've never seen something. It was unbelievable to me that that was my size in that brand. It doesn't bother me. I was mostly mad because that brand would get put on one of those lists of size inclusive brands because they're like, oh, they go up to 5x and I'm like, yeah, but what do they mean by 5x? So I ignore size labels. When I, when I think about size inclusivity, I think about the body measurements that you are accommodating and specifically the body measurements we are accommodating for ready to wear items, not just custom. So one of the ways that brands kind of get around size inclusivity is there's is they say, oh, we'll make it for you custom. And the problem with that is they won't take a return for the custom item, but they'll take a return for the ready to wear. So sure, I can get the item, but I sure as hell better love it because I can't send it back. So that, that would be item number one. Item number two is who are they showing in their product photography? We talked about this a lot last night, but who you choose to hire to show off your products tells us who you want to sell to. And so if you are not hiring plus size models multiple of varying sizes and shapes, that tells me something, looking backwards, because a lot of brands, like you said, try to quote, unquote, fix their size inclusivity problem at the marketing level, like the consumer marketing level, when the problem is actually all the way back in the design and patterning and creating.

[Amanda]

Yeah, don't try to fix that problem.

[Nico]

At the end of the pipeline because you're going to get people. People are going to be pissed.

[Amanda]

Well, yeah, And I honestly, like, would you become aware that that is the root of some of these issues? You can see it in the product photography where maybe they actually are using, you know, a model who's larger than a size 14. Like maybe they're using a 20, a 22, a 24. It is very apparent that the clothing does not fit and the model is uncomfortable. And I can think of a few brands who honestly, people love in the slow fashion space where I can look at the product photography and I'm like, that model can't sit down in those pants. That model is uncomfortable right now. That jacket doesn't close on that model. Yeah, that's not inclusivity.

[Nico]

Yeah, yeah. And maybe another piece, the last piece that I look at is, I think of it as the filter test. And plus size. People have experienced this a lot, which is when you have the option to filter by size, which in my opinion, every brand should have. If you're not making everything in every size, do you go from 1,000 items to 10 items for those larger sizes? Because I can't tell you the number of times that happens where a brand will tout, oh, we go up to a 6X and I'm like, cool, show me everything in a 6X. And it's like a fraction of what they make overall. Sometimes that's because they are expanding their sizing. And that's great. Like, expanding your sizing is not, not an easy thing because there are costs associated with that and doing it right has even more costs associated with it. But don't, don't pat yourself on the back just for the consumers you're trying to win over to be disappointed. Like, it doesn't help your brand.

[Amanda]

I think that's a really good call out because I've worked so many places where they're like, okay, you know what? Like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna extend sizes. We're gonna add plus sizing. We're gonna do it. We're gonna invest money. I mean, we talked about recording last night too. We're gonna do it.

[Donell]

Oh.

[Amanda]

We kind of cut corners. People showed up, bought things, returned it and never came back. The conclusion is never. Maybe we should give it more time. Maybe we should fix where we went wrong. Maybe we need to earn the trust of these customers who are continuously burned by other brands. No, it always is. Oh, I guess just like larger people don't buy clothes. I mean, seriously, like that's what I've heard. Or they're not loyal to us. And it's like, like you have to earn that.

[Nico]

You haven't earned that loyalty.

[Amanda]

Right. And there's so much trauma associated with clothing, especially when you are a larger person, because you find yourself frequently, you know, having to just wear whatever you can actually find. You find yourself feeling uncomfortable. Often you find yourself invisible, like an afterthought. So maybe you can't expect people to just be loyal because you tried. You tried in quotes.

[Nico]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is maybe a challenging thing to say and I say it with care in my heart, but brands should only like a straight. If you are a straight sized brand currently, let's say you've been operating that way for a while, you've been successful, successful. And you are toying with the idea of extending your sizing. I think the most important thing I would say to that brand is do not do this unless you are very seriously committed to putting in the time and the money. Because everyone's going to be disappointed if you don't do that. Like, do not half ass it. You just can't.

[Amanda]

You can't. And you're gonna be successful and you'll lose that customer forever. Yeah.

[Nico]

You know, and they will just tell everyone else. And so any future effort to do that is going to be an even bigger struggle. So I want to promote size inclusivity and encouraging brands to think about that. But honestly, the way that I usually think about it is there should be more brands that focus on the higher end of the size spectrum. Like if you're going to cut out sizes, I would cut out sizes below a large. Like I'm obviously generalizing with a size label, focus on the higher sizes because like we've said, that market is hungry for options, but it requires time and attention and effort to do it well. But when you do it well, because you're not splitting your attention, you're going to have, you're going to be able to build that trust and that loyalty by focusing on that.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I mean, if I were Going to just step back and look at it purely from like a financial business, like put on my capitalism hat perspective.

[Nico]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I would say focus on the larger sizes and get them right because that's a wide open market. And the smaller sizes, they already like, it's already too competitive and oversaturated.

[Nico]

Oh yeah. And I can even define that a little more clearly. So, like when a brand comes and wants to be listed on fior, if they don't go up to at least a 55 inch hip, it is. There has to be something really special about them in another way. Whether that's like, because they're like super sustainable, they're a B core, something else has to stand out, or they're a situation like Shein, which is like at the small end of size inclusivity, where I'm like, people need to know like, what the receipts are. And so we're going to list you because plus size people will talk small, plus size people will talk about you. And we want to put the receipts out there. And also like, one of the things we do is we list alternatives for people to make a step away from that. So like, you may not be ready to invest in like a custom piece or even like $150 dress that might be hard for you. Like that's, that is a hard jump to ask people to make. But maybe we can nudge you in a direction that's like a few steps better than Shein. How can we help you find options that, that feel accessible to you but are moving in the right direction? And I think that's a really important part when we talk about, like sustainability and clothes shopping is that most people are not dumping their wardrobe and starting over and saying, I will have a morally perfect wardrobe. Now most people are making a combination of purchases where they buy something that is that investment piece for the first time to figure out what that feels like and if it's worth it. But they still have like. I mean, I still wear my torrid leggings because they're great and I love them and I haven't bought new ones in a long time, but I'm wearing those things until my chub rub goes through them. Like that's what's gonna happen.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nico]

You will not pry those away from me.

[Amanda]

No, and I think that's really important. I mean, I think that like a, you know, a lot of sustainability marketing is just that it's marketing. It's decided it's designed to get you to buy more stuff. Right. And I think it can Lead you down this path of like, oh, I guess I need to throw everything away in my life and start over if I want to be more ethical or more compassionate on this planet. I know, I know. And I'm constantly. You would be surprised how many times a week I will hear from someone who's like, yeah, so I guess I'm gonna throw out all my clothes and start over. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Nico]

That's the one.

[Amanda]

Take a step. I know. Do not do that. I can't believe you just. You hurt my feelings that you were even thinking about it, you know? But I think, I think, like, it's baby steps, right, for all of us, regardless of what size clothes we can buy or have access to or what our budget is. The most sustainable things are the things that you already have or things that you are going to wear for a really long time. And you know that because they're what you wanted. And that was a difficult lesson for me to learn. Even where I was, like, I constantly found myself buying clothes that I didn't really love, that I didn't feel like trying to fix or take care of, really, because they weren't what I wanted, they weren't what made me feel good. And I think you wore them begrudgingly. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I could afford. This is what was available, or this is what I thought people thought I should wear. So I like, for sure. I love this idea of helping people on that journey if they're ready for that. Have you ever had to say no to a brand? And how. How did that go down?

[Nico]

That's a good question. Let me think about it. I usually say, not now. And I. I would say, why? And I will say, hey, we prioritize brands that are size inclusive and are making strong efforts towards sustainability. And you either are not size inclusive enough to be a priority right now, or, like, I need to let you know that your sustainability report card, if you will, here's how that's going to look right now. Because you haven't shared a lot of information about what you are or aren't doing. Because for every brand, we have the good things, the questionable things, and the, like, obviously bad things. Right. So that's how I've approached it because I. I had this decision point where I had to decide, like, are we going to list brands that I would never in a million years give my money to?

[Donell]

Right.

[Nico]

Because they have had issues, or I just. They're so far down the, like, morally repulsive route that I'm Like, I don't, I don't care what it is. I would never buy. And I kind of decided I want plus size people to understand all the options available to them so that they can see the best options available to them and that comparison matters. So one of the things we did on that route is I would say we're not neutral in the sense of brands get ranked on the site based on their sustainability and ethics efforts, their inclusion efforts. Like the brands that are doing more in that way are ranked higher. So the brands that are doing questionable things are at the bottom of the barrel. They are the last one you're going to see. They are never recommended to you as an alternative. We're constant, constantly trying to promote the brands that are making those better efforts. So I'm kind of using those brands as more like, we'll list you, but we're going to show all the better options to steal your customers. The better brand.

[Amanda]

I mean, I kind of. I like, I actually really like that approach. I think to understand why these, like, smaller brands are worth supporting, you kind of have to see them next to the bad brands to see the distinction.

[Nico]

Yeah. What are you paying for here?

[Amanda]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, a lot of it is like, values, it's ethics, it's good fabric, it's fit, it's things that you will last, you know, And I think more and more that's becoming a conversation that, like, hey, we kind of all get ripped off a lot by a lot of these fast fashion brands. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. And I think I get stoked about that. I'm like, you know, I have spent like, you know, all these years now in every possible way examining how you can talk to people about fast fashion. Right. How you can get them, what. What aspect of it is going to get them riled up about it and want to, want to change and fight for change. And listen, for some people it is talking about workers, and for some people it's talking about environmental impact. But for many people, and I totally support this approach, it is talking about how we all get ripped off.

[Nico]

I think I feel like that is definitely a strong motivator. And I mentioned this a little bit last night, I think that's only getting worse as these Scammy Brands on TikTok are kind of cropping up and people are getting literally sent crap, stuff that isn't real or not getting sent anything at all. It's. It's funny because growing up, like, the idea of like a brand name or like a Label was something that felt very like, ooh, I don't like that. That's what the rich kids do. That's not me.

[Amanda]

No.

[Nico]

Yeah, but now, and now I'm like, well, here's the thing. The brand is the person most in control of how this item gets put into the world. And the choices they make, like, are a collective choice, like over time. Like you don't just switch factories willy nilly or like switch your level of quality of like the fabrics that you're willing to invest in.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Nico]

So like, I think brand loyalty now is just different. And it, what it should be is a way of saying like, I trust the way that you make decisions and what you offer me as your customer. Like, that's what I think brand loyalty is as opposed to. It's a way, it's all. I mean, lots of people see it as like a status signaling thing. That's not who I am. So I don't, I understand that people can view it that way, but another way of looking at it if, if you are more like values minded and that's not important to you, like status signaling isn't important, the way to look at it is like, who can I trust in the way that they produce an item? Because I think people don't fully realize how many people are behind that thing that you've bought. It's an enormous industry, right?

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. No, I think we're on a dawn of some really, these conversations becoming really mainstream. But they don't become truly mainstream if there aren't options out there for people of all sizes and body types. And so that's why I get really excited about the work you're doing with Forea because you don't want to participate in a conversation that you don't actually get to see through to its fruition. And this gives people that option.

[Nico]

Yeah, I mean, when I started, I wanted to basically give people the option to say like, what is size inclusive to you? Because that's what you care about.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Nico]

Like, you need to find what's going to be within, like what's going to fit your body. But as I evolved it, like I developed a size inclusivity, like rating scale because I wanted other people like you where you're able to shop. A lot of brands that start with straight sizing. Right. But I wanted to give people like you insight into like, oh, this brand is actually like at the forefront of size inclusivity. I really want to shop with them.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Nico]

Because I want to support more of that and that I think is really helpful for folks to kind of understand where brands sit, where they have room for growth, where they're doing a really great job compared to, like, maybe their competitors or really just like everyone else that's out there. Like, that deserves to be acknowledged in a way that people can understand.

[Amanda]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think, like, you bring up a really good point there, that this is something that people of all sizes can actually be a part of creating the change. Where, like, I personally don't want to work with people or buy clothing from people who only dress a tiny portion of people and maybe even don't do it well. Like, it just doesn't sit well with me. So this is like, regardless of your size, an issue that should matter. Because I always say that where there's smoke, there's fire. And if a brand is refusing to dress a substantial portion of people, I would ask because I believe this, is this a symptom of some other ethical issues that you're gonna find within that company? Not always. But, you know, where you're shitty to one group of people, I bet you're shitty to another group of people. Right. And I think that's really important to call out because in the places that I've worked that refuses to. To refuse to extend sizes or thought it wasn't aspirational. That's the term to show larger models or to have larger sizes, the people running those companies were literally horrible people who also didn't care about workers, didn't really care about the customers, and created a toxic culture around their brand.

[Nico]

That's so disappointing. I think it's funny, I. I feel really fortunate that I feel that Foria has exposed me to the other side of that coin where I have felt so much more optimism about clothing as I've gotten to know the brands that are more size inclusive. Because like I've said, I said last night, I think the brands that are the most size inclusive has. Have also tended to be the ones that care about the people who help produce their products. They are the ones who are investing in factories that you can feel good about in textile production that is not going to destroy the planet. Like, it has been really lovely and wonderful to spend so much more time focusing on those folks. Even while I know, like, the companies that you're describing are out there, I feel like I finally am in a place where I'm like, I don't have to give them any of my attention because I have so many great options in front of me. And that is. That's a Wonderful feeling. To not feel like, well, you know, these bad, terrible companies are the only option and I have to shop with them because that's my only option. Like, to be freed from that is a really wonderful thing.

[Amanda]

I think it is too. I'm excited for listeners to go check out fior and maybe get to feel that way too, because I. I hope so. I have this tremendous optimism about where all of this is going. And like, I also believe that humans can fix climate change. So maybe I'm hyper optimistic. I don't care. And I. One of the reasons I have that optimism is because I see what is people are doing right now. And I think this is just the beginning. If we all buy into it, it totally.

[Nico]

I agree. I think what I'd like to see sustainable focus, people do more of is look for. And you touched on this look for. What does someone have to gain from participating in this? Right. Like, how can this benefit them? Because when you have that inherent motivation, it doesn't become as much of a, like, mental battle or mental math. Like, one of the reasons we do the ranking that we do is that we heard from folks that like, hey, I'm constantly having to do this mental math of how much I like something, what it costs, and then if I think this company is ethical enough or not, and I'm juggling all of these factors and we're like, oh, we feel that. I do that all the time. Right. How can we start to take that and make it a little more easeful for you? Not that you're not thinking about it like, you still think about it. I think. I don't think it's the right thing to disconnect people from that, but to.

[Amanda]

Just.

[Nico]

Clear the clutter a little bit and make it a little easier to make choices that you can feel good about in every way. Right?

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think. I think we're getting there. It's slow. I think it is slow. Yeah. The more tools we can offer people to make that transition easier, the better. And it just shouldn't be this hard to get dressed every day.

[Nico]

Yeah. I could not agree more.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Nico. This was so such a great conversation. And I'm excited for everybody to hear the other conversation too.

[Nico]

Absolutely.

[Amanda]

Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Selena Sanders, a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets, and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover [e-mail] late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram 8 to the party people vino vintage based just outside of LA, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California, California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Paige is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help, guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us [e-mail] and find us on Instagram. Ylanpage Life and Style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram at Salt Hats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibibes Vintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern Market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online [e-mail] and find us on Instagram. ThumbprintDetroit Vagavan Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts District of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram, Agabon Vintage DTLV and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022. Thank you Nico for taking the time to talk to me one on one in classic clothes Horse fashion. I told them that we would probably record for 15 to 30 minutes and one hour later. Well, that's how it always goes. I am so excited for all of you to go check out forea. It's the tool that so many of you ask me for on a daily basis, so it's thrilling to know it already exists. You can search for all kinds of important things including natural fibers, tall plus size, petite plus gender neutral masculine styles, and so much more. There are so many great brands on the FOREA site, so go check them out. I'll link to Forea in the show notes and if you try it and you find something new that you love, tell me about it, but also tell your friends. I also just want to give a shout out here to Itohan who you will be meeting in in future episodes. She came to the Clothes Horse Jamboree with Ruby of Spokes and Stitches, which is how I got to know her. And I reached out to her and said hey, like, would you like to be a part of this roundtable discussion? I'm still kind of putting it together, but if you're interested, let me know. And then she was like, yes. And here's some other people I think you should talk to and one of those people is Nico. I had no idea that FORE yet existed. I'm so excited. I've been living like seriously, every time someone reaches out to me in the past few weeks looking for size inclusive slow fashion options, I'm like, boop, here's the link. Go check it out. It's incredible. So please go check it out for yourself. And thank you to Idohan for changing my life. Okay, next you're gonna meet Donell. And as a reminder, Donell is the creator of the Philly plus Swap and one of the co founders of Philly fatcon, and she has a full time job seriously. She's taking her business here. Let's take a listen.

[Donell]

Hi, my name is Donnell Jagamin, and I'm the creator and organizer of the Plus Swap that is a clothing swap for plus sizes in the Philadelphia area. And from that, I also am one of the co founders of Philly fatcon, which is a convention curated for fat people by fat people.

[Amanda]

So I don't know how you find enough hours in the day because you also work full time. I do, but to me, that says, like, you know, you're. You somehow make this time because you're really passionate about working on these projects. So can you tell me how you got started with the plus swap? Sure.

[Donell]

And I will also caveat that me working on these comes with a lot of privilege that I'm given from my very flexible corporate America job. And I understand that if other people can't devote this much time to these kind of projects, I have no judgment there either. You can give what you can give. Right. And I also have no children and I just had somebody else cleaning my house. So a lot of privilege there as far as, like, community creation and participation goes. I started the plus swap in 2021. Got it. Like, now that we're getting further away, I have to really remember the year. And it really came to be from an Instagram community called Cell Trade plus that I'm sure many of your listeners know.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

And in that Cell Trade Plus, Corinne Fay, who is the, like, organizer of that, the admin, hosts a open thread every Friday where you can just comment and talk, talk to other people in the community and ask for recommendations or complain about stuff or whatever. And some folks started talking about clothing swaps and, and just like, kind of also venting that they had never been able to share clothes with anyone that they were friends with or, you know, their sister or their family members or whoever it was or their cousins. And after a couple of times that that happened, I said, okay, if you live within driving distance of Philadelphia and you're interested in swapping clothes, send me a DM and I'll, like, create a group message for us. So then all of a sudden, there were like almost 40 people in my DMs telling me that they. They were interested. And I was like, oh, okay, so can't do this at my house anymore. This is a real big thing. And everybody seemed so enthusiastic. And also, this was just the people from Cell Tray Plus. This wasn't anyone else.

[Amanda]

Right, right.

[Donell]

So from the. With the encouragement of my fiance, who is just like, why Not. And I didn't need that much encouragement. I've been doing crazy stuff like this for a long time where you just, like, make up things that you wish were occurred in the world, and you're like, I'll do it.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm guilty of that all the time. I'm like, I don't know anything about this. I'm doing it in a really public way.

[Donell]

Yeah. And risking my own money.

[Nico]

Yeah.

[Donell]

So I. I came to a conclusion of, like, how much money I was willing to, like, lay in the line of my own. And it was. I have $500.

[Amanda]

Okay. Okay.

[Donell]

And I said, if I can find a venue that we can have this in, and, like, that's the amount of money that I can personally lose. Also privileged that I can do that. And just also a. A choice. A priority that I made, too, as well, then I'll organize this swap. So another friend helped me find Bartram's garden, which was our first location. And we were, like, in the barn there. It was not glamorous.

[Amanda]

Oh, it sounded so cute.

[Donell]

It does sound so cute. And the whole area is very cute. But, like, the barn is reserved for, like, I don't know, people must, like, the. The groom's party must have been, like, getting ready in the barn because they were just, like, beer bottles everywhere from the wedding the day before. And, like, we had to clean all the stuff up and everything before the swap the morning of. And, like, nobody even knew we were supposed to be there. You know, that kind of thing. But what happened was we sold out of tickets.

[Amanda]

That's incredible.

[Donell]

Yeah. So I think we. We sold over 75 tickets and, like, 65 people upcoming or something, which is really high because the tickets were, I think, $10. And it was really, like, just to make sure people were actually going to show up.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Donell]

You know, because I. Of course, ideally, everything would be free when it comes to stuff, but the more, like, the bigger it is and the more you involve, get involved, and the more you had for advertise and everything, like, the cost, just kind of rack that up. But I. This is my recommendation. If you want to start small with something like this, like, charge $5 and give free tickets to people who need them, because then it engages people more. But sold out. It was a great success. It was like, I. We donated hundreds of pounds of clothing to our closet with this clothing charity in Philadelphia. There was, like, leftover extra. Like, my entire SUV was full of extra clothes. We had some raffles, just, like, businesses. I reached out to like free label and retold recycling. We had a coffee cart from a girl that I know who has a coffee cart. And I asked Lobo Mao, which is a Philly brand, to bring a rack of clothes to sell. And Nicole showed up with like her whole family. So it's her and her brother run the business. But like her parents were in town from Brazil and they came to. It was just a really cute thing. And so at that first swap, Adrian Ray from Curve Conscious, which was a plus size only consignment shop in Philly, was also there. She kind of had a table full of free clothes that people had never picked up or whatever. And we've been friends for years. When I moved to Philly in 2016, I just like kept going to her shop until she was friends with me. Where you're like, I just, I just want to be friends with this person. I'm just going to keep coming to her, buying her clothes. So the next year, before the next year, I serendipitously met Kenyatta Harris. Okay or no, at the second year, one year, she was after that one. So Adrian and I had it again. She was, I had it at Temple. Adrian came and Curve Conscious was like a vendor there. We had Lobo Mao again. We had what is now PA Fiber shed, was helping people mend their clothes. We had more raffles, like a dozen raffles or something that time. So the second one there was about 85 people or something. And I had it at Temple. And so we're like just continuing to grow, getting a bigger, nicer spaces, involving more people having like a better range of sizes. And then the third year was when Kenyatta Harris joined. She at the time owned a lingerie brand. And then this all brings us to the fourth annual swap, which was at Philly, or the third and fourth annuals were at Philly fatcon, which Adrienne, Kenyetta and I all started together after like seeing the magic of the plus swap grow and just saying like, wow, we have to do this again, right?

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donell]

So that was like really started at the second one. We kind of just looking around like, they can't only be this. It's like there's too much good stuff happening here. So the third and fourth swaps were with Philly fatcon and have just gotten bigger and cooler ever since.

[Amanda]

So what did you learn from your first and even second plus swap that I don't know, you didn't see coming? Right. Was there something that really sticks out to you is like, wow. I was like, not aware of this or I didn't see the scale of this issue or thing that people are thinking about.

[Donell]

There's definitely two things. One's logistical and one's more social. So logistically I was just not as aware of accessibility issues.

[Amanda]

Wow. I mean, that's an important learning.

[Donell]

Yeah. And I like picked places that I. You could access by a wheelchair. But at the time I wasn't really thinking about like also having places for people to sit down. And like, it just came really after the first one when I realized that like people were serious about this and about coming again, that I was like, oh, now we have to make sure that everybody can come if they want to.

[Amanda]

Yeah, totally, totally. And I do think, I mean, for anybody who's listening to this, who hasn't had any kind of event, whether it is a clothing swap or some sort of meetup or, you know, class or what have you, it is really important. And these are kind of things you learn by doing. Unfortunately, unless someone tells you to have places for people to sit down, to have places where people can sort of have less stimulation, you know, also and like decompress because it can be very overwhelming. And. And you know, these aren't the kinds of things that you're gonna learn by like Googling ADA compliance, you know, they're like. It's like a softer skill, I guess I would say.

[Donell]

Yeah. And it's also harder and something you have to try more to ensure occurs for your event when you're working with, you know, a lower budget. If you think about the most accessible places and the most accessible events, they're the biggest and they have huge budgets and they're in like brand new spaces.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donell]

And I am trying to hold this event in the oldest city in the.

[Amanda]

Country and in a barn, effectively.

[Donell]

Yeah. And I'm trying to only spend as much money as I can make and I'm trying to, you know, not spend my own money doing this, but having to put up my own money at the beginning. So, you know, like, whether or not you make the money back at the end, like, there were still other costs that I didn't think about too. Tickets and extra bags for people that forgot their bag and whatever it is, you know, like just little stuff like that. But then the other thing that I learned doing this was something you mentioned, is that we may have all had this experience of not being able to find clothing that we liked or, you know, having limited financial accessibility to plus size clothing, but some of us have a more emotional reaction to finally being able to do that than others. I didn't realize, even though I've lived this experience, how emotional it was going to be for some people where you literally had people crying.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Donell]

And just like overwhelmed, that there were clothes for them to try on and that they could even try on the clothes. But then also some people just having like sensory overload and over stimulation issues. So just taking the individual into account when doing this, but balancing that with like all the difficult stuff that comes with planning big events.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean, I think that someone who has never thrown a clothing swap or perhaps has never even attended one, this is actually quite an undertaking. It really is to throw one. It's not. It sounds like people just show up and dump bags of clothes on the floor and everyone digs around and then everyone leaves. And it's very seamless and it cleans up after itself and there's no chaos. But there's actually so much labor involved and money, I think, which is. That is really important too. You know, as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about something that I was reading recently, which was Kathleen Hannah's autobiography and something she writes about in there is how, you know, in the 80s and 90s, I mean, this is still true today, in order to be like punk or an artist or an activist, you kind of have to have a certain level of financial privilege, or it seem to. Unfortunately, it's really hard to do these things if you don't have a certain level of financial privilege. Because these things require a lot of time, they require resources. And if you are like, you know, you don't have a lot of resources to draw on, you're working like a minimum wage job, you are like barely, barely getting by financially. These things are really hard to do. And so I always want to remind people that this is hard work and this require. It's risky, which is not to deter people from, from doing it, but rather for people to just recognize this sort of like invisible labor.

[Donell]

Yeah, that's kind of, you know, why I started off the way I did when I introduced myself with saying that like there is a lot of privilege in the fact that I could do these things. I have a corporate job that is very flexible with my hours sometimes and other times I was like just in LA for three days and I had no control over my own time. Yeah, right. So that's a give and take thing. But I also, you know, like am in a financial position where I can invest the upfront dollars to do these events. And I'll tell you that space costs so much money. Way more than you think. Like, and I'm now also in the process of planning a wedding. But so, like, the sticker shock of that is, like, nothing compared to what we saw for Philly Fat Con, to be totally honest with you.

[Amanda]

I bet, I bet.

[Nico]

So let's.

[Amanda]

Let's talk about Philly Fat Con, because this is like the A plus swap on steroids. Because there are even more things to consider. Did you have it at the convention center?

[Donell]

No, we wish that we had it at the Conventer, but unless I can cut a check for, like, 50.

[Amanda]

Totally. Yeah. And I think that's a really good call out, because when we were doing the Clothes Horse Jamboree, people were like, why don't just do it at the convention center? And I'm like, casual? Yeah. Just no big deal. Oh, yeah, I'll definitely do that. Let me just sell everything that belong I own so that I can put down the deposit. You know, it's.

[Donell]

My cars aren't even worth.

[Amanda]

I know, exactly. Yeah. So tell me, like, the challenges that you faced there.

[Donell]

Sure. The first year of the Philly Fat Con, we had it back at Temple, where I had the second clothing swap. And it was actually my fiance's idea to look at universities in the first place when I was looking for a swap place. He worked in higher education at the time, or he had just finished and he was in law school, and. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's such a good idea, because maybe we could, like, even partner with a student organization, get it cheaper. Was never able to do that. Still wish we could, but that was. It is very bare bones, though. Like, there's no, like, event coordinator. Like, you know, they just kind of set you up in a room and leave you for the day. So the second. The first year of Philly fatcon, we did it back at Temple. And part of it was it was very accessible because it's a university and they have to be ADA compliant at least to, like, minimum extent.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

And then we were supposed to have the second Philly fatcon at the University of the Arts.

[Amanda]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Tell everybody what happened with that. Wow.

[Donell]

So we submitted all of our paperwork, a very large deposit, and we're planning to have Philly fatcon at the Arts University in Center City Philadelphia on South Broad street this past October. And in order to accommodate that, we also picked a specific weekend that was not convenient for us. Us in our personal lives. Like, it was my birthday weekend, and it was like other stuff was going on. So we went with it though, because it again, was affordable because it's an educational institution and they were willing to work with us and we were going to be able to grow Philly fatcon there and have like more vendors and more seating for people, which is just like always an ask. And then especially accommodating fat bodies was like, even more important. And then a couple weeks after we gave our deposit, the University of the Arts, without any notification to anyone, staff, students, anyone, closed immediately.

[Amanda]

Like immediately. Like, they were like, hey, like upon the announcement. It was not like, hey, just FYI, we're going to close in a few months or even next.

[Donell]

Yeah. We're not going to like finish this semester out or anything.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

Just closed. We never heard from them again.

[Amanda]

Wait, so you didn't get your deposit back?

[Donell]

No.

[Amanda]

Oh my God.

[Donell]

So to this day they have over $2,000 of ours.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Donell]

That we will never see.

[Amanda]

What a nightmare.

[Donell]

Yeah. There are creditors far more important than we are.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Donell]

Including the students. I hope the students get their money back and I hope everyone gets their wages back, like paid that they're deserved as well. And, and I'm sure that the lawsuits are going to unravel. But we were just told, like, by the event coordinator contact. Like, I gave your information to the accounting. I'm sorry if they don't do anything with it. This is my last day, like, never heard from them again. So we had a scramble. And this is like, remember, the three of us are not event planners, right? And two of us have full time careers, right? And Adrienne used to run her clothing, her consignment shop and had since closed that down. But we had a scramble to find a new location in Center City Philadelphia because people had already booked at our hotel block on that weekend. We had already booked speakers and performers. We had already almost signed. We didn't at the time sign, thankfully a like welcome party location or the party, the location for our costume party or anything else. But imagine trying to find a venue in wedding season in Center City Philadelphia for as little money as possible to accommodate like over 200 people.

[Amanda]

I mean, this is. I had no idea that this has happened. So. So I'm sure, like, how much. What was the time between, like losing the venue and the actual event date? Like, was it like three months, Four months?

[Donell]

So I think they announced they were closing in early June.

[Amanda]

Oh my gosh.

[Donell]

And the event was October 18, 19.

[Amanda]

So like four months.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And like, just for any of you who've never had to plan A wedding or any other kind of event. This is nearly impossible with that short of a window.

[Donell]

We gave ourselves one month to find a new location before we started unraveling. Right.

[Amanda]

I like that. I like this plan. Okay. Wow.

[Donell]

But we begged, borrowed, pleaded, toured a million new places. Right. Like, which is all money and gas and hours and time and emails and. And I had originally seen that William Way Community center was nearby because there were still some space restrictions with the University of the Arts, where, like, I wanted to have another fitness room location. So we were exploring, like, options nearby. And I contacted William Way and they agreed to host us and discount the fee since they knew our money was locked up in the University of the Art.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Donell]

Because at the same time all this is happening, we're also trying to fundraise money.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Donell]

For sponsors. But how do I accept thousands of dollars or even $500 from a sponsor when I can't for sure tell you where the event is gonna be?

[Amanda]

Yeah. That's terrifying. I don't know how it. It's just incredible that it all fell into place because this nightmare.

[Donell]

Yeah, it was a nightmare. We, and I think, think we found out about the closure on, like, a Friday afternoon. We literally couldn't do anything. There was nothing. Like, you just had to sit with it all weekend and be like, maybe they'll still let us have our rent there. Just like, trying to have a little hope. So for those of people who did go to Philly fatcon and are listening to this and maybe didn't understand, even though we tried to communicate all this, the limitations of the venue and why we picked a venue that only had two restrooms. This is why.

[Amanda]

Wait, only two restrooms?

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Oh, man. I mean, still, at least it was a place like this.

[Donell]

Yes.

[Amanda]

The fact that you all were able to make this work is no small feat.

[Donell]

Thank you. Thanks.

[Amanda]

Incredible. And it's just interesting to me because I feel like the University Arts, like you're saying, like, maybe there could have been chance because you. That you could have still done this. Because as far as I know, it's just like all those buildings are just sitting there emptying.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's shocking.

[Donell]

So there was like this hope in my mind that they would, like, hire some outside event people to, like, run the event so that they could make the money from. We weren't the only event scheduled. Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's sort of like they were like, we don't actually want to try to make up any. We owe people kind of. Yeah, yeah. We just give up.

[Donell]

So eventually we had to give up on that idea. And William Way was very generous with the time and space, as much as they could be. But it obviously wasn't the ideal. Like, we wouldn't have picked that, right, if we had another choice.

[Amanda]

Of course not.

[Donell]

We wouldn't have picked a place. It was like old and, you know, two bathrooms and whatever the other problems, thin hallways, you know, like, we heard it all in the feedback about the event. And I'm like, guys, remember, we. This was not our choice. This was like either William Way or no Philly fatcon.

[Amanda]

Right, right, right, right.

[Donell]

Especially because, like, everyone thinks. I think, you know, they. We get suggestions for places all the time. What about here? What about there? And it's like all they suggest is a place that's one giant room. But then everyone wants us to have content like panels and fitness classes and a VIP room and a place for people to relax if they're overstimulated. And the marketplace. And it's like, we don't need one room, we need like seven rooms.

[Amanda]

Right. I mean, this is what makes it. Right. Even like. Let's just say you were renting out the convention center because you won the lottery, like you would. Those spaces are sort of like modular where they can break them up so that you can do that. And that's. That's special situation.

[Donell]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's made for that. And there's you know, dozens of restrooms and there's catering on site and all that stuff. Right. So it, it was great. We were able to expand the number of people who could participate in the panels, like to. To watch them and to watch like the keynote speak speecher. Because the ballroom at William Way was rather large, but it was also the same space we got for the swap, which was smaller than the year before. So there were just like a lot of give and takes with it. This year we still had. We still got to have fitness classes. We still had tons, you know, multiple panels, a keynote and a workshop by NAFA and five different fitness classes. I think I. I said fitness classes, but five different fitness classes. And our marketplace was like in the lobby of William Way, which is tight. Yeah, Our vendors were squeezed in there. And again, we had originally booked a place where we could have had 50 vendors. And I think we ended up with under 30.

[Amanda]

I mean, just the fact that you're even to be able to do 30 is pretty miraculous. And yeah, I mean, you really pulled it off.

[Donell]

But also kudos to all the vendors that, like, put up with the, like, corner that we had to stick you in or whatever. And, like, being so close to everyone, I'll say, like, the community really comes together and. And I know that not everybody was super happy with it all, not to mention all the street closures. So, I mean, these things, there's just nothing goes right ever, you know?

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

But it has been a really rewarding thing to do, as hard it is as it is. And we've definitely been taking a break for the past month and a half or two months and trying to just, like, save up our. Our personal energy and our patience and, you know, toughen our skin back up for the next round.

[Amanda]

So you're definitely going to do it again in 2025. Where do you think you're gonna do it?

[Donell]

We have some ideas. Part of it is we do want to have it close to Halloween because the costume party is, like, one of the favorite things. Things.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

That Philly pack on is. And, you know, we still have to have the clothing swap and we still have to have all these other things. It will always have a clothing swap as far as I'm concerned. So we have some ideas. We're waiting to hear back. It's kind of like we tried to get some inquiries out before the holidays, but it wasn't that long between, like, the end of the convention and then the beginning of Thanksgiving.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

Breaks, you know, for people.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Donell]

So it's been a little slow hearing back from people this time of the year.

[Amanda]

And so, you know, I know you said you're going to do a swap at Philly fatcon. Do you think you're going to do any plus swaps outside of that, or is this just going to be. It's once a year, and it's part of Philly fatcon.

[Donell]

So last year I introduced the slow fashion swap, and that was in the spring. Or not last year, but in 2024 this year.

[Amanda]

It feels like last year. I get it.

[Donell]

It does feel like last year. I'm honestly in my brain already in, like, mid January. Yeah. But we, you know, when I say we, I mean me. Will likely do the slow fashion swap again in the spring where it's. It's much different if you've been to Philly plus swap than the plus swap, where the slow swap, we do, like an item for item trait.

[Amanda]

Oh, okay. And so how does it work at the plus swap?

[Donell]

Oh, it's like a free for all.

[Amanda]

That's so cool.

[Donell]

We. We like. What was nice is this year the volunteers sorted all the clothes.

[Amanda]

Oh, wow.

[Donell]

But previously, like, the participants would come in and put their clothes on the designated size tables. Just like 16 through, you know, 40 or whatever. The highest size we get. There's no stopping. We don't say no, too. Too high or whatever. So this year, volunteers did all of that. And it was a. It was so much work. It was so much work to sort all these clothes. I didn't know if we were going to get it done before the swap was supposed to start because I don't store clothes before the swap or after. You only bring it the day of.

[Amanda]

Oh, wow. And then they had to sort it.

[Donell]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Donell]

Because I don't have anywhere to put. I barely have, like, that closet is, like, full to the gills that you see behind me. I know nobody else can see, but, like, I don't have room in my house and nobody does. And we don't have funds. We don't have funds to, like, rent storage spaces for your clothes or whatever. And, like, nobody wants, like, a bunch of smelly clothes because no matter how much you ask people to wash these clothes, you get musty clothes at the clothing spot.

[Amanda]

Yeah. No, it just happens. It happens.

[Donell]

Yeah, yeah. It's fine. I get it, like, it's just from being not worn or whatever. But you don't want that in your house. So I make everybody bring it the day of. And that does cause some chaos. But now there's so many people who have been every year that they really know how it goes. So we put all those clothes on. Nobody can swap until we, like, say, go. Right. And you just take whatever you have to bring. Usually I say, you have to bring five items. Comes. Honestly, if you email me and you're like, I don't have anything to bring. I'm desperate. I just need clothes. Okay. Just show up. I'm not worried about it.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

And then you can take as many as you want that will fit your personal person.

[Amanda]

Right, right.

[Donell]

I have not caught anybody taking clothes and reselling them or anything yet. I know everybody is like doom and gloom about that, but I truly believe our community is not doing that.

[Amanda]

That I do.

[Donell]

Don't prove me wrong.

[Amanda]

I know. Don't. Something I want to believe.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

And so at the slow swap, it was much smaller. I think I capped it at 20 people. We had. I had it at Maid Institute last this past spring. And essentially everyone laid out their items and they were numbered. Everybody numbered their items, like 1 through 20 or whatever. And you went around and filled out a bids plan, slit bid slip. So I made this up. So if it sounds like a terrible idea and you have a better one, send me an email.

[Amanda]

I want to hear about it.

[Donell]

So you, you filled out like a sheet of all your items, like 1 Eileen Fisher silk top, 2 Pumut apparel pants, 3 Universal Standard T shirt, whatever. And you put the sizes and whatever. Then you numbered your pieces accordingly. Then everybody had like a browse period, Right. Where you go around and you look at all the stuff. Then you come back and you fill out. If, if I wanted, Amanda, your universal top, standard top, I would fill out a little bid slip that said, like my personal swapper number. This is the clothing item that I want from you, and I'm willing to give you any of these things of mine. So then when we start swapping, you have this little pile of bid slips that you sort through and you see what you're interested in, other people's stuff. Right. And then you just start going up and being like, hey, will you take this? Or maybe you'll take something else of mine for this or, or what if I give you this and $10?

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Donell]

You know, if it's something that's like an uneven trade.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Donell]

I think it worked really well.

[Amanda]

I mean, I like this idea, actually.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I think think it also encourages more like interpersonal relationships.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And I, you know, when I hear people who have never been to a swap express their fears around it, one of them is that their fear that it will be uneven, that they'll show up with all this really nice stuff and then they'll leave with some stained sweatpants.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

You know, and I mean, I get that. Right. Like, I do too. I do too. I totally get it. And I think that this alleviates that and ensures that people can leave feeling good and have things that they want.

[Donell]

Yeah. And, and especially, you know, I've wanted to do it this way for the slow fashion. We used Lucky sweaters list of slow fashion brands as just like they have a pretty comprehensive list, right?

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

Style Me Slowly also has a really comprehensive list. And so anything that was on the Lucky sweater, any brand that was on Lucky sweater, you could bring and that was considered slow fashion or me made items, like if you crocheted or knitted a sweater or something. So I, I wanted to do it this way because I think that for those items, because they're such an investment sometimes and like, even if that pair of pants doesn't fit you, they might have cost you $150 and like, you can't just toss them in, especially like with the return policies on some of this stuff, you might have never wor it, and you just, like, couldn't send it back to Canada.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean, that is a really good call out. Like, in a swap of this nature, you are probably more likely to find things that have never been worn because it is so challenging to return these things.

[Donell]

Yeah. Oh, there were. At least I also participated in this swap. I don't usually participate because I'm, like, too busy, but in the slower one being smaller, I think we had 15 people added it. I got to participate, and I think every single thing that I had on my table or my portion of the table was brand new.

[Amanda]

Oh, wow.

[Donell]

And it was just stuff that I had never been able to wear.

[Amanda]

That's amazing because, you know, I mean, there's like, there was a study that came out a few years ago, and I can't remember exactly the exact number, but it was something wild. Like, the average American woman has, like, 12 items in her closet that have never been worn ever. And it's, It's. It starts with things like this, right?

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And it just ensures that, like, someone's gonna get to wear it.

[Donell]

Yeah, yeah. And. And I think that it did end up that way. There were people who were like, oh, my gosh, I've been looking for this. I've been wanting to try this brand. I never got to try it on, you know, people that needed to size up, and then they found a new pair of jeans that was the right size or whatever. And I really want to do that style again.

[Amanda]

I think it's a great idea, but.

[Donell]

It does have to stay smaller.

[Amanda]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, imagine if you had to go negotiate with, like, 50 people.

[Donell]

Right?

[Amanda]

Much. But I think. I think this is incredible because, you know, one way that I unwind is by, you know, creeping around on Reddit and in different Facebook groups, especially Facebook groups that are focused on specific slow fashion brands. And so often people are like, I bought this thing and I can't return it. It doesn't fit. Does anyone here want it? And I just. I'm glad that those groups exist because usually things do get rehomed. But this is a much larger issue. I mean, across the board, we know that, like, sizing is inconsistent, and slow fashion brands are no exception. But the difference is that they cost more money, and so it feels extra tragic and so disappointing. When you buy something, you saved up your money for this, you took this risk, you're trying something new, and then you got it, and it's just like, not even close to fitting.

[Donell]

And It's a lot of work sometimes, like, I'm obviously clued into all these places to resell clothes, but I will not create one more freaking account or download another app.

[Amanda]

Same. I'm. I'm like, I'm full on apps.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

So, you know, I belong to Lucky Sweater. I'm on sell trade plus, you know, like, whatever. But it was so nice to take the whole pile and be like, this is it. Help me exchange this. Help me turn some of this over, you know, and they were like, you know, some people like, oh, well, give me two things for this one thing. Because everybody has this like, value sense in their brain and I think in this community, we all have an understanding and appreciation for it. Like, when you own slow fashion items, you know what the level is.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

So that's why it was easier to also just say only slow fashion. So there wasn't like mixed in.

[Nico]

You.

[Donell]

Know, what are we calling the in between? Is there an in between?

[Amanda]

I mean, they're really like low key isn't, you know.

[Donell]

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's like. Well, I feel like Universal Standard is kind of in between.

[Amanda]

They are kind of. I mean, they're definitely not slow fashion, but.

[Donell]

But we. They kind of slide make, you know.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Like sometimes they use better fabrics. Yeah. I don't know. You're right. They're kind of in that, in this nebulous space. But there aren't many brands that I would put in that space. Really. It is kind of weird. They are in a weird zone for sure.

[Donell]

Yeah, we, we do let them slide. Universal Standard. If you're listening to this, we're letting you slide, but we're watching you because I see how many new items you're putting. Putting out lately.

[Amanda]

Yes, that is exactly what I was gonna say. It is like non stop new stuff and non stop sales all time. And that's. Those are red flags to me. So we're keeping an eye on you.

[Donell]

Yeah, for sure. Even though I'm wearing Universal Standard right now and it's like most of my wardrobe.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

But that's because, and this is such an aside to our conversation, but when you wear the size that everything is based off of, of like I wear a medium there and that's where they start grading everything. It just freaking fits.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean, it's a good place to be.

[Donell]

So, you know.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I, I assume all those people who wear like a size 4 are like living their best lives because every brand is graded off of them. Right. Okay. So, you know, one of the takeaways from this conversation is one we are keeping our eyes on universal standard. But the other one is, is this stuff is work and it is hard work and sometimes you lose your venue like four months in advance. And I mean, you have to, like, this is hard work, like physically, but also mentally. And yes, sure, you have privileges that allow you to be able to do some of this, but like, ultimately, what really keeps you doing it is you. Because you could just say, instead of doing this, I'm gonna get really into miniature golf or something, you know, and. Cause miniature golf is great, great. Not best really here in PA because you only have months. But like, what keeps you motivated to keep doing this work? Because honestly, with what you dealt with with Philly fatcon this year, this is a worst case scenario. Like, the only thing that would have been worse is then there was a hurricane.

[Donell]

Yeah. Which the road closures were close to the equivalent of. I. A lot of it really comes back to why I started doing it in the first place. And a lot of my motivation to get into slow and sustainable fashion is because I actually have an undergraduate degree in environmental studies.

[Amanda]

Okay.

[Donell]

And a lot of my motivation for the swap was to keep clothes, especially those that are good enough to go to someone else out of landfill. You know, knowing that everything at Goodwill, like, barely ends up on the shelves. And you know, we have a hard enough time like going thrifting anyway. So that's continually motivating, especially around the swap, is like, let's still make sure that everybody, you know, knows about these brands and we can save some of these brands because we do have vendors at the swap and we try to have. Have. My goal would be that all the vendors would be sustainable fashion, like thrifted, vintage or like slow fashion. We haven't quite got there yet, but that is a huge continual motivator for me when it comes to Philly fatcon and like the multitudes of work that involves that. It's way more than the swap. I love connecting people. I love, like the fact that I know somebody who does XYZ and then I can connect them with the person that does abc and that they can create something totally different new. And that happens so much with Philly fatcon. And when you start building community around you, whoever you are, when you start getting to know people and have. Have not just acquaint, like not just friends, but acquaintances and people that have the same passion. Maybe you're not like personally friendly with each other, but you know, you share a common interest. I love that stuff. Like I love that someone got. Was able to be signed by a manager to be an actress because of Philly Fatcon.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

Right. I love, you know that it also brings and gives people like a sense of, of joy and accomplishment to participate in it. I love that we had authors signing their books there and people getting to meet the authors, that different artists get to meet each other and even like the people that I meet through this work and me being able to make personal connections with them keeps me going. So for example, Ruby from Spokes and Stitches and I don't live that far apart and I noticed on my Buy Nothing page that someone was giving away an industrial sewing machine.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Donell]

Did she tell you this story?

[Amanda]

No, but I, I can foresee the ending. Tell me more.

[Donell]

And the person was like, I know that you know, this is like such a particular item, so if you know anyone else, like outside of our group, I feel like we can break the rules for this because our, our Buy Nothing is very serious.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

So, you know, it's like no outside. You had to live in our geography thing. But they're like, this is such a unique, like, specific thing that like not anybody can just use. So I immediately messaged. Ruby was like, this person is giving away this industrial sewing machine. Can you. Do you want it? Do you want me to put them in touch with you? And she was like, yes. And the other lady was like, yes. And so now Ruby has a second industrial sewing machine and apparently it's one that she's looking for for like 10 or 15 years or something.

[Amanda]

Yeah. She was posting like, I like all sewing machines low key look the same to me. Maybe they're like a different color or something. She was posting about it and you could see that this was like very exciting.

[Donell]

Yeah. So that stuff like that, that happens all throughout the year because of Philly Fatcon and because of the plus swap. And I'm obsessed with that feeling.

[Amanda]

Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, I think that like now more than ever, we've always needed community and connection, but I think that maybe for a while we forgot. And when I say we, I don't necessarily mean you or me, but just like the collective we. We kind of went more insular. And the reality is, like, especially for me as someone who's always been kind of like a loner, community has absolutely changed my life for the better and really like opened up. Just opened me up to like life's potential.

[Donell]

Yeah. I mean even, I think, you know, Adrian and Kenyatta and I are all actually friends too.

[Amanda]

That's amazing.

[Donell]

And I don't know if everybody knows that, but they were both just at my holiday party and Adrian and her wife are coming over for Christmas Eve. So those, you know, doing something and obviously keeping friendships alive while planning events is also a challenge. But being able to do that and actually, like, have even closer community than just, you know, acquaintances and stuff. I mean, not to mention, like, it's just feel good, like, when you go to these events and you see how happy people are and how relieved they are and how free they feel, it's like, yeah, we got to do this again.

[Amanda]

Yeah, absolutely. I know. The. The more the better, right? I think my challenge for me, my personal challenge to myself for 2025, is to stop being such like an introverted agoraphobic person and get out and meet people more like irl. Because when I do it, I'm so happy, I. I'm like, fearful of it. So I'm trying to get over that.

[Donell]

Well, I bet you will just keep hanging around us.

[Amanda]

Yeah, totally. That's what I need to do. I just need to force myself out. Every time I go out and hang out with people, I'm like, that was amazing. I should do that all the time. Then I'm like, oh, I don't know. Like, what if. If I.

[Donell]

We all have those moments where I'm like, what I always say is, who was I when I said I was gonna do this thing? Because it wasn't who I am right now. But then, you know, I really try to keep up with all the commitments that I make. So I end up going and having a great time. And I would actually say that to everyone who has thought about coming to an event, whether it's the plus Wally fatcon, your, you know, conference that you had, or any, literally any other meetup or social gather is like, just show up.

[Amanda]

And if you.

[Donell]

If you don't like it, you can leave immediately.

[Amanda]

Right? Right.

[Donell]

Because you're a grown person.

[Amanda]

Yeah. No, it's true. I mean, even, like, for me, like, sometimes I will. We belong to a co working space in town, and sometimes I'm like, let's just go to the happy hour there. Like, let's just. It's just that simple. And, you know, if we get there and it's weird, we can leave. But like, often it's like trivia or something. It ends up being really fun. And I'm like, wow, I'm so glad we just, like, saw other people and laughed with them. And I think there's something really. I Don't know, like curing about it. Like when I'm. It really cures what ails me sometimes to just.

[Donell]

We are social beings.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

And I would also say, you know, as much as, as many conversations that I have and people ask me about being a community builder, I always say there's no community unless you come. Like, I can schedule events and books meeting spaces and create event brights and whatever, but the community doesn't exist unless you actually go to it. So if you're looking for community, you have to participate or you won't ever find it.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. That's exactly right. Like, and once again, you can try it and if you don't like it, you can leave. But I bet you will like it.

[Donell]

It's that easy.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Well, thank you so much. This was so, so lovely. Do you have any, like, I mean, that was a pretty good note to end on, but do you have any other, like, final words of wisdom that you'd like to share?

[Donell]

Yeah, go to the event. Like I just said, I think that's perfect. And also if you are missing this in your community, you can be the one that makes it happen.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Donell]

You don't have to know anything about clothing swaps. We can send me an email. I'll talk to you on the phone for 30 minutes and tell you everything you need to know. Like you can do it yourself, I promise.

[Amanda]

Yeah, you can. And listen, I'm a person who constantly is like, I'm gonna put together a two day convention or do a live episode or all these other things I absolutely knew nothing about and somehow I do it. So.

[Donell]

And it works.

[Nico]

It works.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Don't be afraid. And if it like, listen, you just went through the whole thing where like literally the worst case scenario happened and it still worked, you know, and I think that's important to remember that like maybe you throw your first clothing swap or community event and there are only two bathrooms and that's okay because next time there will be four.

[Donell]

Yes, absolutely. Go out there, create community, participate. It's going to get better and better.

[Amanda]

It is, it is. If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Close Horse is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses, please go give them your support. Blank CAS or Blanket Coats by cas, is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment. I hope we can reteach our ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram at blankcas and a website will be Launched [e-mail] Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com St. Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again. And more than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every [e-mail] with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram. Wherest Evens that's ware. St. Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and Seoul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram, Country Feedback Vintage and vinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsession obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for Rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow Fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knitted, knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion designer for over 10 years years but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity Future Vintage over Future Garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across row, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign [e-mail] to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, again, that's decodenim.com thank you to Donel for spending some time with me. I'll link to PhillyFatcon in the show notes along with the plus swap. For those of you who are not familiar with sell Trade plus, I'll also link to that. Donell referred to it in the plus swap like origin story and and it's a great resource for finding awesome secondhand clothing in larger sizes and meeting new people who are part of the slow fashion community. It's awesome. It's been around for years now. Go check it out. Okay, one last thing before I finish this up and run some final holiday meal errands. I don't know about you, but it's impossible to hear what Nico and Donel are doing and not to feel like things are changing in a really good way. There's like super smart and talented people making it happen. People like them, people like you. And what they are doing is so different from what we're kind of sold every day, right? It's going back to the top of this episode. Fashion is trying to sell us the same old bullshit. You know, low quality clothing, an endless parade of trends that ultimately kind of mean, you know, nothing. All of course in sizes 0 to 12 at best. So, you know, the fashion industry is only dressing a subset of people. Good job, guys. It's just so stupid and tired. That was the past, okay? We need to look at that as the past. And it's fine to go visit dinosaurs in the museum, but we don't actively live like dinosaurs in our day to day life lives. I mean, I do like to go outside and stomp on things and eat grass, but beyond that, right? The future is what so many passionate, talented people are building within the slow fashion community right now. A few days ago, I was chit chatting via text with a friend who has her own slow fashion brand. And we were talking about how hard it is to find our place within the existing society sustainable fashion universe. And yes, I did make air quotes with my fingers once again when I said that. But my friend, you know, she's young, she's thin, she's beautiful. It's a lot easier for her to find a place in there, but she feels disenchanted with where it's going, what it prioritizes. And I told her how I almost always feel like an outsider when I'm involved in some of the larger events. I'm too late, like working class with my gnarly cuticles. Don't even ask about my fingernails. These hands are working okay, you know, there's my imperfect teeth, my scuffed up shoes. I'm neither a young, beautiful influencer nor a fashion professional with luxury brand experience. I don't have a law degree or an mba. I don't even own like a business suit. Let's not even get into how my personal style is usually not a match for these gatherings. But I also told my friend that I think real change will happen thanks to all of us who are on the outside of the current standard in sustainable fashion. Because that sustainable fashion, it's too aligned with what fashion currently is and it's not making a lot of progress. I mean, let's be honest, it's just really not because it doesn't have the critical mass of people that it needs. Meanwhile, all of us, we're solving problems in new and innovative ways. Ways. We're building new things that actually change lives, like clothing swaps and brand directories, and we're sharing information and we're teaching people how to mend and sew and upcycle, and we're hosting community events and we're teaching other people how to do things while we're at these events. And we're just getting people really amped up to be a part of something because they are a part of something, right? Like, this is a community driven movement. I said to my friend, I wish we could just build a big coalition of people who get shit done because we have the talent and motivation to do it. Like, how do we just get everybody working together in perfect alignment, you know, how does this happen? And she said, you know, sure, I agree. But how do we do that in a way that ensures we aren't taking on even more undeveloped paid work and getting completely burned out? Touche. Right? Because here's where it gets sticky. A lot of the biggest names and organizations within sustainable fashion exist and get the attention from all of us because they have money and they have access to more money. They're working with brands, big brands with a lot of money, right? They aren't running an organization and working a full time job to support themselves. They aren't selling their clothes close so they can fund their podcast like I did, or working 16 hours a day to do everything on their list. And that's the part I'm still trying to figure out. How do we pull together? How do we lead this revolution? And how do we not totally destroy our minds and bodies in the process? Because I see people leaving. I see small businesses going away. I see ethical brands going on a hiatus. I see people sitting, saying, I'm just stepping away from this. It's too much. And I respect that because this stuff is exhausting. I haven't figured out how we do this, how we tighten up this community. I guess that's the ad. I don't know how yet. We build this big coalition and we get shit done, right? But it's on my mind. The limitations that we face, as far as I see it, are much money, time and physical endurance. There's no shortage of passion and talent within this community. I don't know how to fix things like giving us more time, money, and physical endurance. You know that meme that goes something like, I won't tell anyone when I win the lottery, but there will be signs. Well, you'll know that I won the lottery because I will be helping small businesses for free. Free. I'll be creating a foundation that teaches people how to sew, mend and do laundry. I'll be figuring out how to create a network of free childcare. And I'll finally own a home. And that home will include a huge barn for stray cats. That's how you will know that I won the lottery. But until that lottery money comes in, I'm left with figuring out how all of us who have often been unseen by fashion create a better world with only some limited resources and our own talent to get it done. I know there's power in numbers. I know there's incredible passion and expertise within these numbers. Now we just have to figure out how to get it organized. I'll keep thinking about it, and I hope you will too. And we'll talk about it next year. Thanks for listening to another episode of Close Horse. Written, researched, edited, hosted all the things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty, a person who now has proud access to running water in my house.

[Donell]

Again.

[Amanda]

Again. If you liked what you heard, please leave a rating, a review, tell your friends all that stuff. Subscribe. You know it's the standard spiel. If you're looking for some closed horse merch, you can find it [e-mail] if you'd like to support my work financially, you can learn more about that in the show notes, in my bio, on all the social media platforms [e-mail] and of course, lastly, never least obviously, thank you to Mr. Justin Travis White for our music and audio support. I'll see you next week for one last episode of this year and it's going to be a fun one. Bye.