← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 227: How to find accurate news in unprecedented times, with Elizabeth Segran
02:27:59
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- [00:18]
Amanda McCarty
Welcome to Clothesforce, the podcast that was considering calling this episode Newsies, but realized that it might cause some confusion or maybe bring in some very disappointed musical theater fans. And now I'm thinking I might call it Secondhand News, which is for all of you non Fleetwood Mac heads out there. Well, a Fleetwood Mac song kind of see where I land when I finally write the show notes. But, you know, the title of the episode, one of those things that I think about as I'm falling asleep at night. You know, whatever. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 227. First off, I want to apologize for not putting out an episode last week. I had the flu, which totally ruined all of our Valentine's Day plans, which were, you know, very glamorous. They were to go thrifting in Baltimore and get hot pot. Basically, what really just happened is I threw up a lot and spent a lot of time in bed feeling a lot better now.
- [01:20]
Dustin Travis White
And I am glad because I really.
- [01:23]
Amanda McCarty
Wanted to give this episode out to you last week because I'm just so excited about it, and I think it's so important. So over the past few episodes, we have been talking a lot about, you know, how to be okay and how to stay hopeful. Clothes Horse will never not talk about clothes in one way or another, but it's evolving and it's growing and it's kind of shifting into sort of basically how to do good things in a difficult world. And, you know, I think that was kind of always the theme of Clothes Horse. We're just talking about more things explicitly that don't involve clothes directly right now. We can also call this year's sort of theme of Clothes Horse, how to be okay in perpetually unprecedented times. I'm so sick of the term unprecedented, but it just won't go away. Why? Why can't there be a precedent for something? I love precedents. I was feeling a little nervous about this new evolution in clotheshores, but I've received so much positive feedback from all of you how listening to these episodes has been impactful. And I just want to thank you to all of you who have been supportive of my exploration of new topics and information. I'm getting almost five years in into this. Of course, the messaging and the topics will grow and shift. Right. So we won't always talk about clothes, but it'll tie into it somehow, I promise. Well, with all of that, I am so excited about this week's episode. I am joined by Elizabeth Seagrin. She is a senior staff writer at Fast Company magazine and I knew for a while that I wanted to do an episode about the news media, how it worked, how we can do a better job of getting correct information about news on the Internet. And I knew that I wanted Elizabeth Seagrand to be my guest for this because she is so smart and rad. So I am very thrilled that she is here with us this week and we're going to be talking about all things news. Ish. We did not discuss the 1992 musical film Newsies. I'll have to follow up with her about that one. Her thoughts on it. Is it accurate to journalism these days? But wow, we tackled some really important questions. How can we tell the difference between editorial opinion pieces and news reporting? Because there is a difference. And a spoiler. Social media sometimes makes it really hard to see that. Is it dangerous for people to get their news solely from social media? I bet you can guess the answer there. Is there sort of a Hippocratic oath for journalists? What are the processes journalists and news organizations follow for verifying that information is factual? How have budget cuts and a shift in the entire media industry in the digital era impacted how fast news is reported? And has that changed what is covered? Most importantly, how can we fact check the things we see online? We're going to cover those questions and of course, so much more. Before we jump into that, I wanted to discuss something very important and that's a challenge. Slash, sort of like collective action for March. I want this whole community to be evolved. I'm calling it Reduce, Refuse, Resist. I'm sure you've been hearing about an economic protest called the February 28th economic blackout. It's organized by a group called the People's Union USA. And this protest consists of a 24 hour blackout from buying anything that includes shopping at big box stores, eating fast food, getting gas, you name it. One full day of spending no money. And this group has other economic blackouts planned for March and April, all pretty short term, usually focusing on one specific company or category. The goal here? Well, it's multifaceted. It's to get companies to restore their DEI policies. It's to force companies to become more responsible to their employees and customers. It's to get business leaders to pressure the United States government to end some of its current actions, including higher tariffs, deportations, threats to Canada and Greenland. I can't even believe I just said that out loud. But it's real. The erasure of trans people, mass layoffs of government employees and so on. Because honestly, I could be listing things all day Here. While I think this kind of activity can be very effective, it requires everyone participating. If it's a very short term action, like if only some of us don't spend money on February 28, it probably won't change any companies behavior, much less the government. To make matters more complicated, historically, often people who participate in a short term blackout like this will over shop or stock up in the days leading up to the protest or immediately the day after. Go buck wild with shopping so or just go wild with shopping. So basically, billionaires, no matter what, still get their cut of everyone's paycheck in a pretty timely manner. That said, in my experience as a buyer and working within the retail industry, slow sales for a more extended amount of time do have a major impact on company decisions. And it could get these companies to pressure the government too. In my opinion, it needs to be at least a month of slow sales, enough to make a bad quarterly earnings report which is guaranteed to send executives into a tizzy and result in something, right? A day, even a week, it's just not enough in the grand scheme of things where companies are really looking at data on a more macro level. Especially if we don't shop for one day and then buy twice as much the next day, it all evens out, right? That's where all of us come in. We're going to reduce, refuse and resist in March for the entire month. We're going to reduce our spending with big companies. I recommend getting started with Walmart, Target and Amazon. If you can absolutely 100% avoid all three of these, completely amazing. But if you can't for many valid reasons, we'll discuss that in a few minutes. Then just cut your spending with them. Buy necessities, but skip out on impulse purchases. And just for fun shopping, go to these stores with a list and don't add anything else to your cart. And if you live somewhere without Walmart, Target and Amazon, you probably have some other evil mega corporations that you want to avoid. So make your own list and skip those. And for all of you who are like, I already skipped Walmart, Target and Amazon, add some more companies who don't share your values to the list. While you're at it, skip Shein and Temu and all the fast fashion brands or I don't know, break your AliExpress habit. I want to promise you that if you are doing something, it matters and it's effective. At the same time, while we're reducing our spending with all these big companies, we're going to shop small and or secondhand when possible so that small businesses don't lose out in the midst of this. It is very important that we protect the small businesses in the midst of this wild, wild time because they're already facing a lot of obstacles in the current economic climate and we don't want them to disappear. I believe very strongly that small business is the future. Many of the things that we need throughout the month can actually be found with small businesses or secondhand. And I actually think doing this mindfully for a month will change how we shop forever, because it just takes a little bit of practice to totally change up how you live. You know, I live in an area I'm super lucky, where there are a lot of small local businesses that sell things that when I lived in the city, I had to buy from a big company, whether that's pet food, groceries, personal care stuff, tools, all kinds of, like, hardware kind of stuff that we need around the house, garden supplies, what have you. We live in an area where there are a lot of small local businesses that provide those products. I think it's probably because of the Amish and the Mennonite community out here. So for me, it is super easy to never set foot in Target or Walmart or buy something from Amazon. But when we first moved out here, it wasn't like I just flipped this switch. I had to say, oh, wait, I could just go get this at Goods instead of at Target, or, you know, or we could go get this at the hardware store in Quarryville instead of going to Home Depot, you know, and I needed to make that mental switch and get into that habit. And over time, it became second nature for me. Right. So I think bare minimum, let's just say that reduce, refuse, resist isn't adopted by a ton of people. At least it's going to be adopted by us. And we're going to see a change in our habits. Okay, so that's a win even. What else next? We're going to refuse to fall for any promo codes or hot deals these big companies send our way throughout the month because they will, no matter how hard it is to say no. And we will also refuse to be talked out of this reduction in spending, no matter how many times people tell us we're being silly or that boycotts are a waste of time because they are wrong. We will refuse to be persuaded by influencer marketing or Listicles telling us that we need new clothes or makeup or this amazing gadget. We probably don't need any of those things. All of this is resistance to what's happening right now. And yes, we're dealing with some terrible stuff here in the United States. But honestly, no matter where you live, in a time of global mega conglomerates and technocrats with sweeping wealth and like control of our governments, engaging in reduce, refuse, resist is important and impactful. So yeah, we're going to do this for the whole month of March. And while we're at it, let's just get started on February 28th with everyone else. You're probably wondering why you should get involved. I mean, how many, how much time do you have for me to list everything out? I'll just give you a few reasons. Okay, one, you hate the way companies prioritize profits over people in every situation, including the way they treat their employees, the way they disregard the quality of life of the humans who make the products they sell, and even how these companies don't care if they sell low quality product to their customers. Okay, maybe you're like, ah, whatever, that's not motivating enough. How about you believe billionaires should not exist? Full stop. All right, maybe somehow you are an.
- [13:06]
Dustin Travis White
Aspiring billionaire, which I don't know why.
- [13:08]
Amanda McCarty
You'Re listening to this podcast, but fine, thanks for being here. What about. I assume this is why you're listening to this podcast. You care about our planet and its people and you recognize that over consumption and overproduction is having a profound negative impact on this planet as well as, to be honest, our own personal, financial and mental health. Okay, was that reason enough? Here's just the last one. Maybe you just want to get better at buying small, local and secondhand. So this feels like a great reason to get some practice in and build new habits. These are all great reasons right now. It goes without saying that while it's easy peasy for some people to skip Target and Walmart and Amazon, maybe you're already doing that every day. For others, there are major issues of access and affordability. To be honest, it was really difficult to shop local and small in Austin for a lot of things. We opted for Costco over Target, but that didn't always work perfectly either because Costco sells a select set of things and most are in quantities that are quite large for a two person household. Also, some people live where there is not a Costco or they can't afford the Costco membership, or they don't have room to store bulk items. Right. Or, you know, there are a million other reasons why Costco, for example, would not be a good substitute for a lot of people. Even for us with Costco not quite being Perfect, but kind of an option. We also had a car and that opened up access to places that were further away from us. So it was a lot of work for us to shop more local. We could have done better. We're doing a lot better now here where it's, well, to be honest, a lot easier. But I'm always really respectful of the reasons why things like this are difficult for people. I mean, because there are many reasons why skipping big box stores is just not an option for someone. And to be honest, it's none of our business and we don't need to pry about it. I trust someone when they say it doesn't work for them. I'm not here to talk them out of that. Maybe Walmart is the most affordable grocery option where you live, or you need window blinds and they have the only ones you can afford nearby, or you need medicine and targets right there by your office or. I mean, there are so many reasons why, right? These systems aren't set up for us to easily live our values. In fact, the odds are stacked against us as big companies make it really difficult for a thoughtful, ethical business to grow and thrive or really even exist at all. So if you can't skip completely, that's okay. You are still a part of what we're doing. You are participating in reduce, refuse and resist. Do your best by cutting back to just the necessities and try to skip the fun stuff for a month or get the fun stuff somewhere else from a small business or from a thrift store. Whether Target is the only place that has clothes in your size that you can afford and want to wear or, or Walmart is the only place to get groceries. Be gentle with yourself and do what you need to do. I often worry, and I've talked about this here before, that the pressure for purity that we see and feel on social media actually ends up frustrating, discouraging and ultimately disconnecting us from working for a better future. Everyone can be a part of reduce, refuse and resist. It can be as simple as don't overshop and don't buy things that you really don't need or wear. Reigning in your spending actually has major impact too. Because companies like Amazon and Walmart only thrive when we're all of us are buying a ton of stuff we don't really need. I promise if a huge group of people is spending 20 to 30% less with these companies that that will push some change. It will make things happen. That's a lot. That's a lot of money. I know that changes like this can be scary and stressful. So I'm here to support you each week in March, probably on Wednesdays, but tbd, I gotta figure some stuff out. I'm going to be doing a live stream on YouTube where we can talk about how we are doing and challenges we're facing. I may also try to do this on Instagram. At the same time. Dustin and I figured out a way I can rig up my iPad to stream through Instagram while I'm using my computer and my phone to stream through YouTube, which makes me feel, kind of makes me feel like a cyborg, but it also makes me feel like, wow, we're really resourceful at finding new ways to reach people. If you saw what we were thinking about rigging up for my iPad, it's hilarious. Anyway, in those live streams I'll also be sharing helpful tips like how to shop secondhand like a pro and where to find common household items without shopping from Walmart, Target and Amazon. So stay tuned for more details about all of that. Later this week, I'll be announcing Reduce, Refuse, Resist on social media and I hope you will share your commitment to participate in this with your community of friends and family. We can't shop our way to a better world, but we can resist what late stage capitalism and the rise of fascism are currently doing to this world. And I want to warn you, there are people who are going to tell you this is a waste of time, that it won't work, that it's stupid, that you're taking the lazy way to activism or any of the numerous doom or takes I see on these conversations across the Internet. Here's the thing, buying less, withholding our money, it's actually radical, it's actually revolutionary in a consumer driven economy in the United States alone. And this is very similar for most Western countries. Consumer spending is 70% of the economy. So yeah, what we do and do not buy has major impact. And while it's hard to change our habits, the reality is that we are.
- [19:14]
Dustin Travis White
Going to have to do it eventually.
- [19:16]
Amanda McCarty
If we want to shift the direction of climate change, which by the way, we can also do if we're working together. So I think this is great practice for us. No matter what, let's get directly involved in a better world right now. Reduce, refuse and resist. Okay, now with all of that, let's jump into my conversation with Elizabeth Segren of Fast Company.
- [19:48]
Dustin Travis White
Go ahead, introduce yourself to everyone.
- [19:50]
Elizabeth Segren
I am Elizabeth Segren. I am a senior staff writer at Fast Company magazine where I've been been for the last 11 years. And I mostly write about the fashion industry with a particular focus on sustainable fashion, which is why I love your podcast so much. I'm a longtime listener, and so I'm just so. I'm so happy to be here with you.
- [20:12]
Dustin Travis White
I'm so excited you agreed to talk to me because something I have been thinking about a lot, especially in the time leading up to the election, but certainly since then. And just more and more, I am really viewing a lot of things I see on social media from a news perspective with a critical eye. One thing I want to explain to people is kind of how journalism works and how it is probably very different than content creation. And I say that as a person who is like, that's what I do, right? But I would never be like, I'm a journalist. I went to school for journalism. I understand the best practices. I know the processes. Like, I would love to know that stuff. I thought about going back to school for journalism, and I was like, nah, it's too late in the game, really. But I want to talk to you today about kind of how news gets to us, right? Like, the processes involved and why we might see things that we don't see, etc. Because I feel, and I'm sure you see this, too, that there is a massive distrust in. We'll just say the media in quotes. And it is not like, you know, I feel like. I know back in, like, 2015, 2016, we saw Trump and like the maga. Org as a whole, really trying to turn people against the media. Like, don't trust them. It's the fake news media, the failing New York Times, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is that, like, not only is that just, like, how people view media at this point, like, on that end of the political spectrum, there's a lot of cynicism and skepticism and lack of trust throughout the political spectrum at this point, including on the left end of it all, where people are just like, the news doesn't report things because they don't want to, because they have an agenda, because they're controlled by xyz. And I think that actually the explanation for why a lot of stuff doesn't make it into our newsfeed is a lot more complex than that. And I want to talk to you about that.
- [22:14]
Elizabeth Segren
Totally. There's a lot that has happened over the last 10 to 15 years that has transformed everything about how we consume the news. And so, yeah, I would love to dig into all of that because I think it's really important to understand how we got here so that we can figure out exactly how to make sense of the moment that we're in.
- [22:41]
Dustin Travis White
Right, right. And I think like, I mean, obviously some of the things that have happened in the last 10 or 15 years that have really changed where we and how we get news and what news we get is social media, it is smartphones, it is the news cycle kind of never turns off. And I feel like it's really, really fast. I was thinking this weekend about how when I was a kid and CNN started, it was like, oh my God, like people can watch news 24 hours a day, but I didn't actually know anyone who did that. That would be wild, right? But like they were able to make 24 hours of content every day out of what was happening in the world. And that sort of became, became like the standard. But then we got phones and we got social media and suddenly we could consume news anytime rather than just like at 6:30pm every night, you know, like all the time.
- [23:39]
Elizabeth Segren
You know, that's actually probably a really good place to start because I think that a lot of people who are not paying a super close attention to the business of the media don't fully understand exactly how we got to the current ecosystem that we're in. But I think, you know, it's really important to understand kind of how the business of news works as sort of a good foundation for all of this. But you know, when we were children, there were newspapers and then there was cable news, right? And all of these news outlets had very straightforward business models. So if you take the news media and you take magazines and newspapers, which is where I've spent my career, these were businesses that were built on advertising and on subscriptions. And so, you know, back in the day, if you got the New York Times or Time magazine, these publications were funded by ads, but they were also funded by people paying for the news. You know, you would, you would spend money to get the magazine or the newspaper at your doorstep. And so these businesses were very well funded enterprises. They were able to hire a lot of journalists, fact checkers, copy editors, all of these different, you know, essential features of creating a very robust, accurate news, right? And so that's what was, that was happening. And then, you know, with the advent of the Internet, exactly what you're talking about, things changed pretty profoundly. Because what happened is that all of these different, you know, more traditional forms of news, magazines, newspapers, they all started putting their content online. And at that point in time, there still was a lot of online advertising that could fund all of that news, right? So if you think back like 10, 15 years ago, just when digital media was emerging, it was possible to fund a really robust newsroom with all of the digital ads that were coming in, right? So every time you read a news story, there was an enormous banner ad. And at the time, you know, the landscape was such that those ads were able to fund those media outlets. And then social media, you know, entered the fray. And that's kind of when I became a journalist about, you know, 11, 12 years ago, and things got very, very complicated. On the one hand, social media was actually great for journalists and these media outlets because we could get our news and our stories out into people's hands. And it was amazing. I mean, there was a time 10 years ago when I would write a story about how clothing was made and the impact it had on the environment. And if it went viral, my well reported, properly fact checked story would get into the hands of hundreds of thousands of readers. I mean, there were a couple of stories a year that would hit like, you know, a million readers, which was really amazing. Like good, you know, good, high quality news was really getting into people's hands. But at the same time, what happened was that those media, social media platforms began stealing our advertising revenue. Say, like Tiffany, right? Like Tiffany, the jewelry company. You know, there was a time when Tiffany would be like, okay, who do I want to advertise to? I want to advertise to somebody who has this particular net worth is this particular gender. And so they would look at the different magazines and media outlets out there, and so they would think, okay, Fast Company seems like the perfect match for us. We're going to pour a bunch of money into Fast Company to advertise our products and it's going to get to exactly the kind of person that we want. And we actually had a lot of data that showed exactly who our readers were. And Tiffany was like, great, here's a million dollars. But then social media emerged and it became much easier for Tiffany to hyper target exactly who they wanted to advertise to. So suddenly they were like, we don't really need Fast Company anymore. We can just advertise directly on Instagram to the people that we want to buy our products, right? And so over the last five to 10 years, all of the advertising revenue slowly left, you know, media outlets like mine, and they, you know, social media instead. It was a much better return for their dollar, right. For all of these different advertisers. But then on top of that, what happened was Facebook in particular began switching off anything that was news related. Right. And because basically there was, as everybody knows, there was a lot of fake news misinformation that was spreading on those platforms. And so around the time of the 2016 election, there was a decision made across social media to sort of downplay the amount of news that was getting out there. So what we have now is a landscape in which media outlets are really struggling to make money. And as a result, they're unable to hire as many reporters, reporters as many fact checkers. All of the people who were, you know, who were ensuring that the system was strong and robust. That's one side of the picture. And then secondarily, like a lot of our news stories are not really getting out through social media. And so because these news outlets are actually sort of, you know, making sure that that content isn't really making, bubbling up right to the average person. And as a result, it's much easier for just, you know, other kinds of content creators, right, like more sort of entertainment oriented influencers to create narratives that do actually spread. And so we are in this morass. It's very difficult situation that we're in right now. And so I think that's basically like laying the table for, for where we are right now.
- [30:08]
Dustin Travis White
I mean, I think that's a really great summary of it all. And I'm going to, I'm going to tell you that I saw a post on Threads a couple weeks ago where someone said, I don't care what anyone else says, all news should be free to every person. And I was like, you know, I get what you're saying, I get the meaning, the intent behind it, but it costs money to create the news. Right? What are your thoughts on that? I mean, because you basically just said essentially the media, the news has been defunded by social media and all these other advertising things and whatnot. And we're seeing in real time that it costs money to make news.
- [30:57]
Elizabeth Segren
I think it's a very complicated question and I absolutely understand the impulse of what that particular commenter said. I would also love to live in a world where news was free and easily accessible. I think that that would be a much better environment to be living in. The thing that I think about is, you know, I spent my childhood living in all, you know, all over the world because of my dad's job. And I thought that the UK was a particularly interesting place when it came to news because the government funds several news outlets, right. The BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation has, you know, it's, it's essentially like npr. Right. But it is funded by taxpayer dollars. And as a result, you know, the UK is able to, to put out this news and, and create a very informed public. And that's great. I think that that's really, really good. And I think that something like that is really wonderful. As long as you have a government that is committed to sharing both sides. Right. And that isn't going to take, that's going to let the journalists and the people in these newsrooms have autonomy. Okay. So I think that would be the ideal situation. But in the US and actually in many parts of the world, that is not a reasonable thing to expect because, you know, I also spent part of my childhood in Singapore where there is a news media that is also funded by the government. But in that case, it's a very authoritarian system in which, you know, you're really not allowed to publish news that the government does not want you to publish. Right. And so like anything about, like the opposition party or, or any, anything that would, would put the government in a negative light, you know, there's just so much fear, you know, among journalists that, that, that is not a good system either. Right, okay, so, so that's one model that we're talking about. So, so there's, there's a model of, you know, the government funding a news media system. And so there, there are a lot of problems with that. Okay, so you put that aside and then we think about, okay, so what other alternatives do we have? You know, I think that there was this brief period of time when advertising really was, you know, a really good way to fund journalism. And I think that it conditioned a lot of people to expect the news to be free. And so, so, so that's kind of the situation that we're in right now. It feels like that we shouldn't really be spend on the news. But actually, I don't actually see another way forward at this point, except for paying for subscriptions to various news outlets. And that's why you're seeing across the board, the New York Times has a paywall now, the Washington Post, the LA Times, all of these different news outlets, even Fast Company, we are increasingly trying to earn more and more revenue from subscriptions. And I think that, you know, that's something that we sort of have to expect. And actually we need to think about the world before the last 15 years. Like when we were growing up, our parents were willing to spend some money on paying for the magazines that they wanted to read and the newspapers that they wanted to read. So I think we Sort of need to go back to a time when that was the norm. But I would say that, you know, in the midst of all of this, this whole conversation, while we're in this moment where we're trying to get people to start paying for the news again, there. There is a lot of. There's a lot of imbalance right now in what's happening out there among news outlets. So, you know, the New York Times was actually among the very first media outlets to realize that the advertising model was just not going to work, work, and that we really needed to move towards a subscription model. And so it came out of the gate very early with that paywall. And a lot of people, you know, thought, okay, you know, it's a. It's a reasonable thing. I'm just going to buy this one subscription. And the New York Times has gotten more and more, you know, powerful over time as it's, as, it's, you know, built its revenue from, you know, its subscribers, right? And so it's been able to hire journalists from lots of other media outlets. So that, you know, the. The offering that it gives, you know, its subscribers is really great. You know, if you look. If you look at, you know, the number. The sheer number of people in its newsroom and, you know, writing about all of these different issues, it's. It's really unparalleled. And then on top of that, they're trying to make their subscription even more appealing to you by hitting, throwing in things like games, right? And throwing in, like, the New York Times cooking app. And then there's also, like, you know, the wire cutter and all of this. And so what we have now is the New York Times is really making it very, very hard for other outlets to compete. Because if you're going to spend between 10 and $20 a month on a subscription, like the New York Times really makes it a great value for money. But people have limited budgets, right, you know, to spend on news. If you want to support the New York Times, it's, you know, you have to be very, very wealthy in order to also pay $10 to support the Washington Post and also pay for your New Yorker subscription and then also pay for a Fast Company subscription. And so basically, we're at a moment where there's a lot of inequity right now in the media landscape. The New York Times is just so big. It's creating a little bit of a monopoly. And I think that this is something that we're all sort of wrestling with right now. And I think smaller media outlets like mine, you know, indeed, like almost all of the magazines that are out there and even, you know, like sort of news outlets like the Washington Post and the LA Times, they're, they're also really struggling and it's partly because of the New York Times's dominance. And that's not to say I really think that the New York Times is a really wonderful asset. I mean, it is currently producing very well, fact checked, reliable news for the world. And I don't want to live in a world where we don't have that. But we also need to figure out as a society how to create a media landscape where there are multiple outlets, where we have lots of different forms of media out there. Because we don't want to live in a place where all of our news is just coming from this one outlet.
- [38:01]
Amanda McCarty
Totally.
- [38:02]
Dustin Travis White
I mean, out here where I live, in terms of like local newspapers, like in the three county region where I live, when I was growing up, there were about six different newspapers. Like every sort of county had two and then over time they had one and then they started merging and so that there were even less and the newspaper was even thinner and it only came out three days a week. And here in Lancaster county where I live, the same family had owned the Lancaster newspaper for like a hundred years. And they actually were sort of like, we don't want to sell to this company that's been buying up all these small local papers because the content is terrible. People aren't getting really good news anymore. You know, it's all about. It's just all AP stuff that they're. Which is great, but like it's not. There's no local reporting. And so they gifted it to witf, which is our NPR and PBS affiliate out here in central Pennsylvania. And so they are running, or trying to run it as sort of like a nonprofit arm in line with our local PBS and NPR coverage. It's really interesting. I met with someone who's been working on that. It's hard. It's a hard thing to do.
- [39:12]
Elizabeth Segren
I think it's really sad when local media fades away like that. My husband is a political scientist and he also kind of studies how the news landscape has changed. And I think that one thing that happens when local news dies is that, you know, that, you know, people just start focusing on these kind of like national stories. Right. And I think it actually creates. It actually, I think probably contributes to polarization because we're talking about these kind of like big issues and it's easy to sort of like become very tribal. When we're talking about things in that kind of way, whereas before, in a previous landscape, when we were talking about all kinds of things that were happening in our area, you know, things were just more complex. Right. Like, you know, you might align with, you know, people in your own, you know, like Democrats in some ways, you know, in the way that they were handling things domestically, you know, like in your neighborhood. But you might also, like, agree with some Republican policies. Right. Like, at a local level, things are much more complicated. It's much harder to paint in these broad strokes. Right. And then also, you know, you were reading and learning about people in your community and just kind of creating a much more sort of like, you know, a much more nuanced approach. Right. To like, to like, what was happening around you. And now it's just. It's not the same. Like, when everything is sort of like, okay, there's the New York Times on one side and Fox News on the other, we're missing a lot of nuance that actually, you know, like, when we're actually in our communities and, like, talking to, like, business owners and, you know, and people and our neighbors. Right. We have a much more sort of like, complex and robust understanding of how complex, you know, the world is. Right. And, like, how people with different political persuasions can work together and interact with each other. We don't really get that when, you know, when. When we're talking about things at a national level.
- [41:17]
Dustin Travis White
Absolutely. And I think it really actually sort of disconnects people from, like, local politics, the importance of, like, local elections and city councils and what's happening at your mayor's office, et cetera, et cetera, because people literally, like, the New York Times is not going to report about, like, the reservoir here in Lancaster and, like, totally regulation around it or whatever. And I think that, like, it means that we have less awareness of what is happening around us and we only know these big picture stories. And like you said, it disconnects us from the people around us, too, because.
- [41:53]
Amanda McCarty
Absolutely.
- [41:54]
Dustin Travis White
Out here where I live, it is very much, very much who, you know and who wants to interact with you is so dictated by what kind of signs you had in your yard during the election. And that is really scary.
- [42:08]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, no, it's a very sad situation. And it seems like it's going to be very hard from what I'm seeing right now and sort of in this situation, as a journalist in this world, I just don't understand what it's going to take for us to get back to a place where we Have a diverse media ecosystem, just like at a national level. And. And then we're going able to sort of support local media. I think a lot of thinking needs to be done. We really need a lot of innovation so that we can return to a place where we're able to get reliable news at a local level and at a national level.
- [42:55]
Dustin Travis White
Totally. I mean, and we have seen just.
- [42:57]
Amanda McCarty
This ecosystem change so much.
- [42:59]
Dustin Travis White
It's not like you and I are like 80 years old. You know, I remember my parents getting the newspaper every day. I remember all of our magazine subscriptions and watching the news on television at night, the local news and the, you know, the network news. I remember as an adult, like, I got a lot of my information from like, the free weekly city papers, which were always, like, really great local reporting, really covering like, arts and other issues within that city. Those are gone because they couldn't make the advertisements and they were free.
- [43:32]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, they were like a gem.
- [43:35]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, such a gem. I mean, like, that's how you looked for an apartment, a job. They had personal sections. You know, it was like what was happening around town, like, you know, in terms of shows and art, but also like, really important local political issues. And those are gone now, too. And they were free, but they couldn't even survive the lack of advertising, you know.
- [43:59]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Dustin Travis White
So something that I hear a lot about is this idea that we are maybe lacking. This is the term in media literacy at this point, which I think in some ways might be true, because we. It's. I. I would say it is not necessarily the fault of anybody who might be confused about what news is reliable or where to get it. I think it's really. Social media has made it really difficult to parse out what is real and what is opinion. And I wanted to start because something I see a lot is I will see someone. You know, I'm a chronically online person. I'm on all the platforms. I'm on Reddit, I'm on Instagram, et cetera, et cetera. I will see someone share what to me is very clearly an opinion piece, an editorial, and be like, this is news.
- [44:54]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah.
- [44:54]
Dustin Travis White
And I think that that's really dangerous. So could you explain to everybody the difference between, like, editorial slash opinion and straightforward news reporting? Because if you're reading a newspaper, it's really clear it's its own section, but we're not doing that anymore.
- [45:09]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah. I think this is a very interesting and actually kind of a complex question to start with. I think that any reliable magazine or newspaper will signal this very clearly, you know, so, you know, at a newspaper there is an opinion section and it's very important to remember that the people who are writing in that section are expressing an opinion. And so it can, it can be an opinion that is supported by reporting and data, but it is still that person's perspective. And so, you know, at Fast Company, if I, for instance, as a journalist, you know, I, you know, I have stories that are these well reported stories that are fact checked and that are, you know, I've had multiple editors look at it and it's, it's supposed to give a very comprehensive understanding of a particular issue. But there are other times when I am expressing a point of view on something, you know, I'm taking a stand about. For instance, you know, Shein. Right. And I want to make it clear that I have reported this story, but I am also expressing a point of view and sort of suggesting to readers what I think the best thing to do is when it comes to something like sustainability or trying to be more responsible with how you shop or something like that. Right. And then there are clear markers, right. So sometimes there'll be like a point, like it'll be, it'll be described as like, oh, pov, which is like our version of saying it's an opinion piece. So I think if you have a news outlet that is reliable, it will signal to you what it is. And it's, and I think it's really important for, you know, readers and, you know, listeners to be, to be aware of this because I think that a lot of people are not actually paying attention to these little signals anymore because we live in a place where, you know, people don't really care as much about whether something is straight on news and opinion. But what I will say is that there's this broader question of whether any news can be entirely objective. And I think the answer to that is no. Right. Like, I think that as journalists we are working as hard as we can to present both sides of the story, to have, you know, to have multiple points of view in a story. And so like if I'm writing a negative story about a company, you know, I want to make sure that that company has the opportunity to respond, respond and give me their point of view so that the reader can then make a judgment for themselves. I'm presenting all of the data about why this company is problematic, but the company has the opportunity to say, actually, but we're doing X, Y and Z, right? So then it's kind of giving all of the information to the person reading the article. But if you take a step back, why did I pick that story to begin with? Right. What is informing my decision to write about particular issues? And so I think that that's something that we're talking about a lot now that basically, like, you know, there is no such thing as complete objectivity, and that's really, really important. And so I think that there's a debate happening now about whether it's important to sort of signal who you are as a journalist so that the reader can then also take that into account. So at a place like Fast Company, my magazine, Fast Company, describes ourselves as a progressive business media organization. And what that means is that we take the position that business is a source of good in the world, and we are generally aligned with what you would consider progressive values. And that's really important to Signal from the outset because that ensures that people who come to us understand where we're coming from. And so this is a. You know, it's a very complex issue, but what I would say is that there are signals in the stories that you're reading that the journalists are working hard to do a lot of reporting. So they're presenting multiple sources, multiple points of view. They're trying to get as much data and as much, you know, as much information as possible and present all of that to you, the reader, so that you can make an informed decision about it. And so I think that's what you should be focusing on. I think whether or not it's completely objective, that's a more complex question. But I think our job as journalists is to give you as much information as we can.
- [49:57]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, it seems like you really just need to, like, read the whole thing in full and reflect on it. And I think what can get more complex for people or make it, I don't know, easier to misunderstand the full message of a piece of journalism is that we often. I mean, I hate to say this, people do not read the article. They read the headline. They maybe read the first paragraph. They maybe just read a screenshot that someone posted somewhere else, and they really have no idea what the real story is.
- [50:32]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [50:32]
Dustin Travis White
And so it's really just like, you.
- [50:34]
Amanda McCarty
Have to take a little bit more time.
- [50:36]
Dustin Travis White
If you really want to know things, you got to read things.
- [50:39]
Elizabeth Segren
It's really frustrating. I see this all the time on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the platform where I tend to share, you know, and interact with readers the most. And, you know, I often post a story and then people start commenting, and it's very clear that they have not read the story. They just want to be part of the conversation. And it's like, just really, I sometimes feel like it's so obnoxious that I have to keep going back to them and being like, actually in like paragraph three I actually made this point. Or you know, or like I actually, you know, said the opposite of this. Like you know, in paragraph five. But yeah, it's very clear that people, yeah, it's, you know, it's just like, you know, people are skimming, right? And they want to be able to engage without having sort of done the work.
- [51:30]
Dustin Travis White
It's so true. I mean I actually see your posts on LinkedIn and I see these people showing up and I'm like, that person.
- [51:37]
D
Only read the first sentence of your.
- [51:38]
Dustin Travis White
Post and is now trying to like make a. And their what they just responded with is longer than what they actually read. And you know, it's very. I mean I deal with this with Close Horse all the time too. And I'm like, well if you look on the third slide in the second paragraph, it says like this thing and it frustrates me too. And I think unfortunately, I mean I say this all the time to my clients when we're working on like packaging, labeling, you know, e commerce stuff. I'm like, well unfortunately what I've learned in my life is that people hate reading. So like we got to keep it simple, right? But unfortunately, if you want to be an informed, concerned citizen, you have to read the whole thing.
- [52:25]
D
Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clothes Horse going via their generous Patreon support.
- [52:33]
Amanda McCarty
Spokes and Stitches is a size inclusive pattern making and sewing studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Pattern maker Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of designing and making their own clothes. If you're looking to expand your design skills beyond following store bought patterns, check out Ruby's flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. No more full bust, flat seat or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional services such as pattern digitization, size charts, pattern making and grading services for indie slow fashion brands that want to prioritize inclusive sizing. You can find Ruby on Instagram spokesandstitches and get in touch with her for professional services at www.spokesandstitches.com Selena Sanders a.
- [53:43]
D
Social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover more@shiftwheeler.com late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles, they hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram eight to the Party People Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern Californ by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Paige is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us out@dylanpage.com and find us on Instagram ylanpage life and style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find Us on Instagram Salt Hats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace located in the historic Eastern Market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural, locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online store@thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on Instagram at Thumbprint Detroit Vagabond Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond.
- [57:12]
Amanda McCarty
Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL.
- [57:16]
D
Location located in the Arts District of downtown downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram Vagabond Vintaged TLV and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022.
- [57:40]
Dustin Travis White
Do you think that it is a bad idea for people to get all of their news from social media?
- [57:47]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean, this is something where there's no question about this. I think that there's several reasons why it's problematic just to get your news from social media. One is that our social media feeds are so tailored to us. We are only getting access to points of view and types of news that the algorithm thinks that we want. And then the more that we look at that, you know, the more of that kind of news we're going to get, right? And so first of all, it ensures that we are, you know, we're going to be in an echo chamber. That's, that's the first problem. So you're only going to be getting access to, you know, one particular type of, you know, point of view. Right. Or one particular type of news. So the other reason that it's a problem is that, you know, social media can, can only present, you know, snippets of what's actually going on. So even if you're going to like the New York Times's social media feed or and we're trying to do this too at Fast Company, you know, we put out like little sort of TikToks and videos in which we sort of, you know, describe what happens in the story, we're only hitting the high points, right? We're only sort of talking about a couple of things that, you know, that we, that we, that we were sort of, of dealing with in the story. And so your, your knowledge is just going to be so superficial. And I mean, I think we're already seeing what happens to the world when a lot of us are not reading the news and a lot of us are just on social media, you know, you know, we're living in a world where we don't have a lot of nuance and complexity when thinking about important political issues. Right. We tend to be very tribal. You know, we, we tend to sort of dismiss everything that somebody who's on the other side of this issue is, is saying. And that doesn't create a society in which, you know, we can, we can compromise and negotiate with one another to create the future that we all want. You know, we're, we're all already seeing what happens when we live in this echo chamber sort of TLDR kind of world. And so, yes, absolutely, I think it's a huge problem. And if there's one thing that everybody should do is to think about subscribing to at least one legitimate source of news and at least trying to get, you know, an in depth understanding of, of what's happening in the world from that outlet.
- [60:35]
Dustin Travis White
I agree. I think that that is really beneficial because I think especially since so many of us are out of practice with actually reading the news and we're getting it from social media, we will look at things like there's, I don't know.
- [60:49]
Amanda McCarty
There are a lot of things that.
- [60:50]
Dustin Travis White
I would that are really just memes that are maybe like one droplet of information, but presented in a way in which it is like a massive story or it seems it's like 10 words on a slide to people that has become news. In fact, you know, like a really great example was, you know, like it was going around that like, FEMA was only giving people in LA who'd survive the fires $700 and then they were cut off. And it's like actually that's like the beginning of a sentence that explains so much more and you can so easily find the rest of that information. I felt like a lot of media outlets that I really respect were actually working really hard to debunk that misinformation. The problem is that people weren't seeing that stuff because they were just seeing like little boxes on Instagram that were like, Fema giving Americans $700 the end, you know, and it was just like, ugh, it's so much more complicated than that.
- [61:42]
Elizabeth Segren
I constantly am facing this frustration when it comes to anything related to sustainability, and I'm sure you're in the same boat, but I think the more you look at any of the issues that we're dealing with, with sustainable fashion, everything is very, very complex and there's always more underneath the surface. And it's very easy to get a headline and sort of have a particular sort of point of view about it. Right. And so, like, one example that came up recently has to do with this idea of whether we should be sending clothes to, for instance, Trashy. Right. You know, this new company, I think you've talked about it with your listeners, where, you know, you send, you know, bags of your old clothes to Trashy, and then Trashy separates it out and recycles part of it and, you know, sends part of it to other streams, recycling streams, and sometimes donates, you know, clothes that can still be donated. And it's a complicated issue, right, because on the one hand, as a society, we are over consuming, we have way too much crap. Right. On the other hand, our recycling infrastructure is really not what it needs to be. You know, in other parts of the world, there are waste streams for you to put your clothing so that it is properly recycled. The way that you recycle paper or aluminum, we don't have that in the US on the other hand, like, ultimately what we should be doing is we should be, you know, solving this problem at a systemic level by, you know, by having, you know, various, like, regulations that make it hard for us to consume as much as we do. Right. All of those things are simultaneously true. And so I was looking at Trashy and thinking, okay, it is, it is helping us solve some of this problem. Right. But we also need to be thinking about, like, some of these other issues as well, you know, like, you know, do we want to be sending our clothes to a company that is able to actually put some of this stuff into a recycling stream? Because our government is not funding, you know, a clothing recycling stream, like an apparel textile recycling stream. I think that that's actually a pretty good thing to have. Right. In the absence of, you know, like, government infrastructure, having a company do that. Sure. But there are, there are many other parts of it that are also problematic. But, you know, when I post a story about Trashy, people have like, a very instinctive reaction to this idea of a company that is taking our clothing and, and recycling it like this. Right. People have a very, like, gut reaction to that. A lot of people are like, no, this is a terrible idea. This is just helping to support people's, you know, overconsumption, which is, which is partially true. Right. But there's just so much complex stuff to take apart. Right. In this whole debate. And so, yeah, reading the headline and sort of like having a gut reaction to it doesn't actually help us, us get as a society to a place where we're doing a lot of these different things simultaneously. The way that I felt on this particular issue is that like, you know, we have a systemic problem with the fashion industry and our overconsumption. We need to be tackling it on both like a short term and a long term basis. Right. Like long term we need to be doing a lot of really profound stuff from regulations, from changing the way that companies are able to operate to our consumption habits. All of that needs to happen so that we can live in a world where a company like Trashy doesn't need to exist. Right, right. But in the interim, when we have all of this stuff piling up in our house and we really don't have a place for it to go, you know, besides like, you know, a donation pile that's going to end up, you know, in, in Ghana or Chile and like become part of the waste stream there, or a company that's willing to sort of switch, sort through it in the interim. That is a good short term strategy. Now that's a very complex argument. This is just one example. I literally am doing this on a daily basis. Right. But this is a situation where these are complicated issues. And in order for us to as a society get to a place where we're coming up with solutions to these very complex issues that have to do with the fate of our planet, like, we need to be able to deal with some level of complexity that is not apparent, you know, on social media.
- [66:31]
Dustin Travis White
Absolutely. I mean, I, I think it also kind of makes our brains a little lazy when it comes to being comfortable with thinking about complication and nuance. All of these things are like, something I would say just recently is, you know, a lot of people are boycotting Target, which I totally respect. I understand why they would do that. And I haven't shopped at Target in a really long time. But then I'm looking at people's suggestions for where they should shop instead of Target and she ain't on there. And I'm like, okay, well this is obviously a really complicated issue, but I'm going to tell you right now, if you said I can only choose one, she and her Target. I'm going to tell you to go to Target because at least Target pays people wages here in the United States, like has some semblance of like, you know, work standards here in the United States and theoretically is doing similar stuff in their factories. Abroad, you know, pays duties and taxes. And I don't. I don't know is if you get injured or sick from wearing something you bought from them, you can hold them legally responsible. And so in that regard, I would be like, unfortunately, guys, you got to choose Target over Sheehan in this situation. But that's how complicated this stuff is.
- [67:41]
Elizabeth Segren
Totally.
- [67:42]
Dustin Travis White
Right?
- [67:42]
Elizabeth Segren
And, you know, there have been so many issues over the years. It's like, okay, what do we think of recycled polyester? And, you know, so, for instance, like, with that issue, it's a very complicated issue, right? Because polyester is this material that is not going to biodegrade. It's really problematic. Their microplastics are ending up, you know, in our oceans, and yet polyester makes up, like, an enormous quantity of what, you know, what is in our clothing right now. And so you take something like recycled polyester, and it's actually very. It's almost like an impossible puzzle, like, whether recycled polyester is actually better or worse. Right? Because on the one hand, recycled polyester is probably better than virgin polyester. But on the other hand, by supporting the recycled polyester manufacturers, you're continuing to have polyester, whether it's recycled or virgin, be part of our supply chain. And so it's very complicated. I think in a lot of cases, there's always like, okay, there's like the short term immediate. This is like a little band aid that's going to make things better, a little bit better than the status quo. But then there's also like a longer term thing that we need to be thinking about. And with almost anything that has to do with sustainability, there's just so many levels to it, and it's just really, really hard to write a story about this and sort of deal with all of the complexities in the story, give people all of the information that I have so that they can sort of, like, work through it with me. And then people just read the headline and then they have a gut reaction. Like, half of the people, Half of the people are like, like, oh, my gosh, like, you are greenwashing. Like, recycled polyester is the worst. Like, why are you even suggesting this? Everybody should be wearing hemp, right? That's like one. One person's saying that, and then the other person is like, oh, my gosh. Like, yes, like, we should be totally, you know, like, replacing, like, recycled polyester, especially if it's like ocean plastic. It's like, it's like, it's just gonna. It's gonna save the world. It's like, no, it's like, these are complicated issues. So anyway, I have so many examples of this that, you know.
- [70:04]
Dustin Travis White
No, it's true. And it's like, I am frequently frustrated by the people who want black and white. Easy answer. Because there never is in topics around sustainability and really in just about anything that is happening in the world right now. And I'm always really skeptical of someone who is like, this is resolutely the best solution to this very complex situation. Because, you know, unless they can show the work of how they got there, I'm like, I know it's more complicated than that. Than this is right, this is wrong, this is good and bad.
- [70:38]
Amanda McCarty
So I wanted to ask you a.
- [70:39]
Dustin Travis White
Little bit about sort of. I don't know, I was thinking about how, like, when you're a doctor, you have, like, you take the Hippocratic oath where you're like, gonna do no harm and you take care of people. And it seems to me that as a journalist, you have a lot of responsibility on your shoulders to try to be unbiased, to try to present the most factual information, which just my guess here as a journalist is much more challenging than if I was trying to write a paper for school and could go, you know, use sources of vetted information already. So I was wondering, like, do you. Are there best practices that you all follow? Is this, like, in writing? Like, what do you do?
- [71:23]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, so there definitely are, and we do have some best practices that are in writing. So I think one of the key issues, and I think it's. It's actually very relevant now in a world where there are lots of influence, influencers out there, is that as journalists, it. We need to be very clear that we do not have any stake in the company that we are writing about. And so we have to disclose if. Or actually just not write about a company, if somehow they are paying us in some way. Right. Or if there's some way in which. Or we're married to somebody who works at that company, or there's some way in which we are somehow connected financially to, you know, the outcome of that company. Right. I think that's. That's like one of the first bits of information that I need to put out there. And I think that this is. This is really important now when so many people who are on our social media feeds are actually, you know, producing sponsored content, right? They have, you know, a company that is, like, paying their salary and, you know, they're producing content that puts that. That company in a favorable light. I think that. I think that has conditioned a lot. A generation of people to believe that basically all people are speaking from a perspective in which they have, you know, a stake in what's.
- [73:05]
Amanda McCarty
What's.
- [73:06]
Elizabeth Segren
What's going to happen, you know, in a company, right? In the company that they're writing about. And, and so I think the first thing to know is that a journalist should not, right, have any sort of stake in the person or the company that they're writing about. Which is. Which is why, you know, there's. There's all kinds of, you know, we've seen, like, you know, over the years, like, you know, if somebody is, like, romantically connected, right, with, you know, a politician that they're writing about. This happened recently with rfk. And I know, I was just gonna say, right, like, that was a huge scandal because it's just really, really important for you to have a very neutral stance on the person or the company that you're writing about. That's the first thing that's kind of up there. Then, when it comes to actually doing the story, it's really important to go to as many sources as you can to try and understand what's happening. So, you know, I think it really depends on the kind of story that you're doing. But, like, you know, in some cases, I'm just, like, kind of talking about a cool product, right? And so, like, I might do a story and like, you know, I'm basically sort of learning about a product that I think is really interesting that maybe uses a new kind of material or, you know, like, recently I did a story about Eileen Fisher and how the company created sweaters entirely from old sweaters that. That people had sent in. That. That was really interesting to me because I think that, you know, the fashion industry is, like, is trying to work towards a place where we're able to have, you know, a completely circular system. But, you know, a lot of the time you're just buying your. Your recycled wool or your recycled cotton from, you know, a supplier. In this case, these were all sweaters that were formerly Eileen Fisher's sweater. So I wanted to learn all about that process, right. In a situation like that, you know, I'm. Basically, my job is to, like, find out as much as I can about how that process happened and give you and, you know, and all of my readers as much information as I can. Now, if there was something that was in that story that, that, you know, that was complicated or that was questionable, it would be really, really important for me to go out to another source to try and Understand that. So, like, let me take a different story, for instance. You know, so, like, for instance, if there is a story about, like, a new kind of. A new kind of plastic that's. That is biodegradable, right. For instance, this is like something. Something that keeps coming up. Right? Like biodegradability. So that. That's a really cool concept. Like, I want to know more. I want to learn how they're doing it. In that case, I also kind of want to ask some scientists about what they think about it. Right? Like what, like, do, you know, I want to go out to, like, several other scientists who, who can tell me whether, you know, this company is doing something that is actually truly, like, groundbreaking and it's going to change the way that, you know, we deal with. With plastic forever. Or are there, like, problematic aspects to this? Right. You know, for a long time people were talking about, like, biodegradable plastic, but they failed to tell us that actually it needed to be put in, like, you know, in a composting, like in a. It couldn't be, like, backyard composted. Right. It needed to be composted in a very specific kind of facility. And this was just something that these companies were, like, advantageous advertising. As if, you know, all of us could just, like, have this plastic and then, like, throw it in our backyard and like, next year it would just be disintegrated. That's not what was happening. It's in, like, going out there and talking to other scientists that you get a fuller picture. It's important for us to be getting as much reporting in there as possible.
- [77:08]
Dustin Travis White
And so after you felt like, okay, I have, like, on this plastic piece, for example, like, I've done my due diligence. I've gotten as much information as possible. I feel pretty confident that I have. I am presenting a nuanced, unbiased, as much as possible, unbiased, you know, take on this. What would happen next to your piece?
- [77:29]
Elizabeth Segren
So what's. So what's, I think, different from the way a journalist operates versus an influencer? And I'm using this as a comparison because I think that this is what most people are. Are looking at when they're, you know, on social media. Right there there's like, influencers, people who are giving them information on social media, and then they're journalists. So I want to show how we're different. When I write a story, I have multiple people who are reading what I've written. So I have an editor, and my editor's job is to look at everything that I've said, and then to ask questions like, did I go to enough other sources? Am I getting another perspective? And my editor might hold my story and prevent it from being published before I go and talk to a couple more people. That's one level. And then my editor is also fact checking the story with me. So we're going through and we're like just double checking to make sure that everything that I have stated is accurate. So a good editor is going to go to every single link that I have hyperlinked to and make sure that that is also a reliable source, right? So if I'm. If I'm giving you information and I'm like giving you a bunch of stats to sort of like give you context about the story. Like say we're talking about the plastic story, right? And I'm going to start the story by telling you how much plastic we are producing every year, what percentage of our clothes are made from plastic. My editor is going to make sure that I have good sources for all of that information. And then after all of that, we have a top editor, somebody else who's at the company who's going to read through it from a completely different perspective. Because the editor and the writer are deeply woven into the story at this point. We've spent a lot of time looking at it. It's sometimes good to have like another perspective on this. And so we have multiple eyes that are looking at the story. One thing I would say though, to just kind of add a little bit of complexity here, since apparently complexity and nuance is the name of the game. What I will say though, is that as, you know, as newsrooms thin out because we are unable to fund as many journalists, what we're losing is we're losing people who are a part of this fact checking process. And also as reporters are sort of forced to sort of produce as much as possible in a short amount of time, that means that we don't have as much time to write the story and also do all of the important fact checking for it, right? And so that's just something to keep in mind that as the news media becomes less and less funded, we are just losing a lot of the precious and valuable work that goes into making sure that it's as accurate as possible. And that's an important thing to mention as well.
- [80:49]
Dustin Travis White
I think that is. And I think another thing that is really important to call out is like, we're talking about time here. And in a world of like hot takes, the news actually can't be A hot take. And I, what I have noticed is, like, people will express frustration that, like, the bigger news outlets aren't reporting about something that just happened immediately. For example, I follow the NPR subreddit, and people in there are like, we want to talk about some media literacy issues. I'm like, why are you in the subreddit? Because they get really angry when NPR is unbiased and straightforward about things. They want them to go on there and be like, you know who's a real asshole is Donald Trump. And that's literally never going to happen on npr. Right, right. You have to listen to understand where you land on where you land on it. And, you know, they'll talk about, like, this thing happened this morning, and I still don't see an NPR piece about it. And it's like, yeah, because it takes.
- [81:46]
Amanda McCarty
Time to get it right.
- [81:48]
Dustin Travis White
But. And I can understand that. And I see you nodding your head because, you know, too. But what, what really happens is people are like, it's because the news media is controlled by someone who doesn't want you to hear this story. And so they're not reporting on it or they're not reporting it on the way I want as fast as I want, you know, using the tone that I want. And it seems to me that a lot of distrust in media right now comes from lack of resources for media.
- [82:17]
Elizabeth Segren
Totally. Yeah. There's two things happening there, I think. On the one hand, it's a resource issue because I think that, you know, if you're in an environment where you have a lot of journalists who are able to go out and sort of COVID this stuff quickly, and you ultimately have a lot of editors who are at the back end at all hours of the day, fact checking and working through the story with you, then, yeah, sure, stuff comes out faster. Right? But like, NPR is also struggling financially. It's just like all of the rest of us, right? Apart from, like, the New York Times and, you know, the New Yorker and maybe Bloomberg. Right. We're all struggling, right? And so we have fewer people, and so that slows the process down. But then also, like, yeah, I mean, it takes time to get, to get the story right. And I think that in a world where we're getting so much information on social media at the speed of light, it's just, I think people are just conditioned to expect to, you know, to get the information that fast. And actually, I think the problem is that, like, that is why social media is a very, very problematic way to be getting your news. Because the reason that Things are going that are circulating so fast is because people are not really putting a lot of work into that. Right. Into trying to figure out if what they're sharing is accurate or not. And so, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this has to do with just kind of like the conditioning that we've had on social media in terms of speed, in terms of the kinds of people who. Who are sharing the information. Right. And that has changed the way that we think about the quote, unquote, mainstream and traditional media. But also, you know, social media has stolen our lunch. Right. And so, like, so the, you know, the mainstream media outlets also just have less to work with, and it is like a very toxic and problematic situation that we're in right now.
- [84:20]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, it is. Because I feel like people are disconnecting from media.
- [84:24]
Amanda McCarty
They trust it less, so then they.
- [84:25]
Dustin Travis White
Don'T want to pay to support it, but then there's no money to support it. And so the reporting, there's less of it. It could be less accurate. And I mean, I know sometimes these stories take a really long time. Like, a friend of a friend worked on a pretty explosive story about an organization in, like, the sustainable fashion space, and it was illegal for, like, months to get it. Right. That's how it goes. Right. Like, if we really want things to be right and reliable, then we need to give it a minute and we.
- [84:56]
Elizabeth Segren
We can also be sued. Right. I mean, like, there, there's. I mean, that, that's. That's partly. I mean, all media outlets have lawyers in house who, who go through stories. Not every single story that I write will need to be looked at by the legal department. But I have had many stories that have been read through, you know, with a fine tooth comb by lawyers because it's important for the information to be accurate, first of all. And, you know, that's what the lawyer is there to do. But also, like, we don't want to say something that could potentially, you know, get us sued because. Because we are in the wrong. Right, Right. Like, I don't think we have any problem putting out a story that is, you know, explosive or problematic or, like, is like exposing a company. Like, we're not worried about getting sued by a company if we believe that we've done the best journalism we can. But it's just about making sure that we are being very accurate and thorough in what we're saying. And that's what the lawyers are there to do.
- [86:00]
Amanda McCarty
Right?
- [86:01]
Dustin Travis White
Right. Yeah. So it's just like another layer of complexity and time and resources that in generally, like, as you were in general, like, as you were calling, like, influencers. They are not subject to any of that. And sure, yeah, they could get sued, they could be forced to pull their content down, they could get a scary letter, but in general, the stakes are so much lower for them, you know?
- [86:23]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [86:24]
Dustin Travis White
And so they, they can just churn it out and not have to think about the repercussions. And unfortunately, I do see a lot of incorrect stuff if we want to just go sort of sillier.
- [86:36]
D
Remember the drones?
- [86:39]
Dustin Travis White
What was that was like back around the election or where people were seeing all these drones on the east coast and people were sharing drone footage non stop. And you'd be like, yeah, I think that's like planes coming into land.
- [86:51]
Elizabeth Segren
Right. Airport.
- [86:52]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [86:52]
Elizabeth Segren
And there was this whole theory about how, like the Chinese were spying on us or something like that. Was that the one you're talking about?
- [86:58]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah. Or it was aliens. There was a lot of aliens.
- [87:01]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah.
- [87:02]
Amanda McCarty
Oh, my gosh.
- [87:03]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah.
- [87:03]
Amanda McCarty
And I saw some people who were.
- [87:04]
Dustin Travis White
Like, it's actually the federal government spying on us, like, blah, blah, blah.
- [87:08]
Elizabeth Segren
It just is fodder for like, just people's craziest conspiracy theories. Right. Which is just like, come on, come on now. What are we doing with our time?
- [87:19]
Dustin Travis White
I know. And it's like, oh, you know what? It's already, like, stressful enough right now, like, to just live in this time in human history and, you know, it's been stressful in every time of human history. But then you're like, oh, and then maybe either aliens are coming or the Chinese are spying on us or the government is. And why are any of those things happening? Okay, well, here's another thing I can just be up at night about. And so actually, like, this drive to just provide content.
- [87:44]
Amanda McCarty
Content.
- [87:45]
Dustin Travis White
Content is actually really harmful for us just as individuals even, you know.
- [87:50]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, yeah.
- [87:56]
D
If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothesforce is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank cas, or blanket coats by cas, is focused on restoring, renewing, and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textile. By embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas, and a website will be launched soon@blankcast.com Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses.
- [89:02]
Amanda McCarty
Our mission is to create a brand.
- [89:04]
D
And community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shoppervillshop velvetunderground.com St. Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every Thursday@wearsaintevens.com with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram. Ware St. Evans that's Ware St. Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares.
- [90:09]
Dustin Travis White
Do you have used records you want to sell?
- [90:12]
D
Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagramtry Feedback Vintage and Vinyl or head down east and visit.
- [90:20]
Dustin Travis White
Our brick and mortar.
- [90:21]
D
All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed.
- [90:33]
Amanda McCarty
Made with love and some swearing in.
- [90:35]
D
Fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced, hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnicwear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity. Future Vintage over future Garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points.
- [92:04]
Amanda McCarty
If it's ethical and legal, we try.
- [92:06]
D
To find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram Ute Littleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble, we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home. Responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's deco denim.com.
- [93:49]
Elizabeth Segren
I think that Trump is acutely aware that we all have a very limited capacity to process information. And so he's just, just overwhelming our senses with so much news about various, you know, executive orders and a lot of like, you know, sort of fear mongering that none of us can really process it. And as a result, we can't do anything about it. We can't fight back, we can't start building a resistance that's really important to be aware of. And so I think the question is like, how do we now deal with this, right? Like with, with all of this information that's coming at us. I think first of all, it's fine to, I think, take a step back, right, and maybe sort of disconnect a little bit from the news for a short period of time. And I think that this also applies to social media. I think it's really, really hard to say this or to do this now because we are all so addicted to our social media feeds. But I think, you know, we're seeing what happens when we're just, like, overwhelmed with the amount of information that's coming at us. And I think, you know, a wise thing to do would be to sort of like, give ourselves a break from all of that, right? And sort of like, you know, give ourselves time to sort of unplug, disconnect, take a walk, you know, limit the amount of time during the day that we're on social media and we're reading the news. Right? Because then we can sort of come back to ourselves and, and then sort of process what it is that we. That we want to process. We are in control then of our ability to, like, perceive, you know, what is happening in the news. Right? And with Trump in particular, I think it's like, you know, we are being actively, like, sort of, like, assaulted with information. I think if we take a step back, we feel a little calmer. We can sort of focus on the issues that are most relevant to us and that are most important to us. Right? And then, and then think about how we are as citizens, as people, as communities are going to respond to those issues. Right? Like, is it immigration that is sort of like the most important thing to you? Is it, like, Trump's rollback of various, like, climate initiatives? Like, what are the issues that you care the most about? Like, what are you going to put your attention to? Because, as many people have said, like, attention is our most valuable resource, and Trump and the social media in general, it is stealing our attention. Right? And so I think the way that we fight back is we take control of our attention. We realize that we are in control of what we pay attention to. And that, I think, is, like, the way that we get out of the moment that we're in right now.
- [96:39]
Dustin Travis White
I mean, I totally agree with that. I think the news is coming so fast and so changeable. I mean, I was thinking of you this weekend because I was thinking about the de minimis rule. I was thinking about how you'd written a piece about it and the impact of it. And then of course, it was like, reinstated.
- [96:57]
Elizabeth Segren
Thank you for thinking about me when I wrote that, because I was just like, okay. I just, like, spent like, three days reporting this story, and then now I have to say, like, okay, sorry, guys, like, you know, this doesn't apply anymore.
- [97:10]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, no, I mean, it's funny. I mean, but like, not. Not haha funny, just like, infuriatingly funny. The tariffs alone, you would not think of tariffs and de minimis, like duties, policy, Anything like that to have this really egregious like, emotional impact on people. But it actually did. And a lot of small businesses thought they were going to go out of business abroad and here in the United States. People, people were freaking out on the Internet about having to pay duty on their shein. Clothes, you know, because they didn't understand it. They thought, I know, the eye roll. But like, you know, they were like.
- [97:43]
Amanda McCarty
They didn't understand it.
- [97:44]
Dustin Travis White
They had heard that someone else paid these.
- [97:47]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [97:47]
Dustin Travis White
And people were just losing their minds. Right. And, and fairly. Right. Like, I get it.
- [97:55]
Amanda McCarty
And then it.
- [97:56]
Dustin Travis White
To have it all just turned back to what it was before, immediately after, like a week of chaos. And that is how all of these stories have been.
- [98:04]
Amanda McCarty
And some. And, and many of them have much.
- [98:07]
Dustin Travis White
Much greater implications than having to pay a duty on your Sheehan. Right. But what I have noticed is that there is so much chaos, this onslaught of executive orders and crazy stuff that Trump says, et cetera, et cetera, that we actually, we have to dig really deeply to even find out who is resisting it and how. Like, you know, a lot of these executive orders are in court right now.
- [98:35]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [98:36]
Dustin Travis White
And they're gonna be overturned most likely. But the, the media is so under resourced and there's so much chaos coming their way that there's not a lot of attention being given to that stuff because they don't have the bandwidth.
- [98:49]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, it's. I mean, and that is. All of that is on purpose. Right. You know, this was a strategy that Steve Bannon came up with in his first term. And it's, it's working really well. But I think, you know, I don't think that he can continue at this velocity forever. And I also think that, you know, he's at this kind of critical period where he just has a lot of political capital right now. He was just elected. People have not turned against him yet. Like his supporters have not turned against him yet. And so he has this kind of. He has this power right now to do a lot. Right.
- [99:34]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah.
- [99:35]
Elizabeth Segren
And so that this is not going to continue because they can't continue at this pace. And at some point soon, I think people are going to start, you know, responding to what's happening around them. Right. Whether it's that, you know, prices are going to go up or that, you know, like the deportations are happening and it's beginning to look cruel and people don't want to be associated with that or people, you know, people thought that, you know, their particular community would not be affected by deportations. But actually he doesn't care. And they are. Things are gonna start happening that are going to turn people off. And especially for Trump voters who often voted for him for, like, a very particular reason, right? Like, they might have thought, okay, like, I'm gonna vote, vote for this man because I don't like what's happening in the economy. I want somebody different, right? And then, you know, maybe there's some other thing in their life that Trump has impacted that they weren't, they didn't see coming. Like, for instance, like, if you, you know, you were voting for him because you thought that, like, you know, the economy was going to be, like, amazing, and then, like, suddenly, like, in your neighborhood, you're seeing people getting deported that might turn you against him, or if the economy actually doesn't work out the way that people are thinking, because actually tariffs are terrible in terms of inflation and so on. Right? And so on and so forth. Or, you know, suddenly, like, you know, you weren't voting for Trump because of, you know, his, his views on, like, the LGBTQ community, right? But then, you know, suddenly, you know, there are all of these, these laws that are, like, impacting people that you love, you know, that's going to turn you against, against him. So, so things are going to start changing as people fight back. So this isn't going to last forever. I think, you know, I think that's really important to keep in mind, and I think it's really valuable in this moment of chaos and everything happening so quickly. I think the strategy that I'm taking and I think, I think is probably like, the best approach is just to kind of really focus on the things that, you know, that are, that are important to you and things that you have the most knowledge and information about. So, like, from a news media organization, it's really great that at Fast Company, you know, we have reporters that are experts on all kinds of different issues. Like, I, you know, I've been a retail slash fashion reporter for 10 years now. I know about tariffs and that's like my lane and I. And I have, like, a lot of different people that I can talk to about that. So that's what I'm going to focus on. Like, I can't focus on that as well as deportations. Right. And as well as, like, all of the rollbacks on, like, or, like, how he's going to be affecting the education system. We have somebody else who is focused on all of that. Right. And so I think that, that, like, as a news media organization is how we're handling it. And probably for the average person who is like, processing all of this, that's probably, probably a good strategy for you as well. You know, there is something that you are passionate about and there's something that you know a lot about. So when you feel overwhelmed by all of this, maybe block out the stuff that you can't really do anything about that you don't fully understand and just focus on the things that, that are in your wheelhouse. Because eventually there is going to be a resistance. You know, I really believe that. And you know, we all are, are going to have to like, sort of divide and conquer. And so at that point, like, it's going to be really good for us to have the area that we know about and that we were aware of like all the executive actions in that sphere and we know like, what the appropriate reaction is going to be. I think that that's how we get through this.
- [103:11]
Dustin Travis White
I think that is really sound advice. The last thing I just wanted to ask you is like, do you have any advice for people who are maybe encountering a post on social media that they're like, wow, this is really upsetting. I hate this, like, to validate like what, what the full story is, like, how to best fact check these kinds of things as an individual?
- [103:39]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'll tell you what I do, because this, this affects me too, right? Like I'm, I'm on social media and I see things on social media and sometimes, you know, I get taken aback by something that I've read. And so what I will do is I will, I will Google it. And I think that maybe as a person who's in the media, I have a good sense of what a good reliable media outlet is for me to try and understand what's going on. So basically, you know, you know, so I'll see something that happens, right? You know, let's think of an example here. Bloomberg reported about how basically all of the different companies that process Shein's products and bring them into the country were beginning to charge Shein and other Chinese companies 30%. Right. But that information was just spreading on social media in a way that was very confusing. It was like, okay, Shein now has to pay 30% of a tariff, right? And I was just like, what is happening? Like, the tariff on China is 10%. There's the de minimis loophole that we've talked about. What is the 30%? Like, I'm super confused right now. Right?
- [104:59]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, yeah. And everybody was like, yeah, you're gonna have to pay $30 if you order from Shein. I was seeing it, like, extrapolated. Yeah.
- [105:06]
Elizabeth Segren
It was like, first of all, it was like, okay, like, now you're gonna have to pay the 30%. And then after that, it was like, oh, it's $30 and every, every package. And I'm just like. Something is like, not right here. Okay, so what you do. Okay, so this is what, this is what you do. So you, so you like, okay, there's something that doesn't seem right to you. You look it up, you know, you, you, you put in a Google search, like, you know, like she and Tariff, right? And then you, you, you don't believe anything that the crazy AI, you know, Gemini or whatever, definitely not coming up with.
- [105:40]
Amanda McCarty
So wrong.
- [105:41]
Elizabeth Segren
It's so wrong because that is just processing all of the craziness that is out there, all of the misinformation and summarizing it for you. So you don't want a summary of the misinformation that is not helpful to you.
- [105:53]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [105:53]
Elizabeth Segren
Let's just like, not do that. So you find reliable media outlets. Now, in this case, the original story had come from Bloomberg, and Bloomberg is super paywalled. Okay? So I can see that this is like a problem for a lot of people. If you don't have a subscription to Bloomberg, then you don't have access to, like, the original story that was coming through. Okay? And so what you do is then you look for other reliable media outlets that have reported on what Bloomberg has done. So Reuters, for instance, is free and tends to be very reliable. You go to other, you know, if you have a New York Times subscription, then you look at a New York Times story. If not, you look at, like, media outlets that are, that, you know, to be legitimate, and you try and figure out what is happening from. From there. And actually what was happening in this case was it was this very, very complex thing. It was that, like, if you're FedEx and you're like UPS, you were basically asking Shein to pay 30% upfront because they didn't know what the actual amount was going to be. And that. And Shein would be refunded if the tariff was actually less than that. And it was just basically a precautionary measure. It was a very subtle thing. Right. And it wasn't really necessarily going to affect you as a consumer right away. It was a very, very specific thing that was happening. And so anyway, that's how I would go about doing that. What do you do? I'm curious. Like, this this is my approach. What do you do?
- [107:26]
Dustin Travis White
I mean, it's pretty much exactly what you just said. I will often be like, huh, that seems pretty weird. I mean, I'm sure I, like, you have become really astute with feeding in the right search terms to get to my answer, you know, for one. Right. So I'm really strategic about what I ask. So I might say, is she in charging customers $30 for shipments or is there a 30% tariff on shein February 2025? I would add that in there because I don't want to look at information. Last year, once again, I would totally ignore the AI Stuff is almost always wrong, as you said, because it's pooling from everything on the Internet. And then I would look for Reuters is a good one, New York Times, you know, Bloomberg. And I would read the source information because like you said, it's going to be a really different story. And I'll tell you, that insanity, that misinformation was traveling fast and it was really picking up momentum where I was seeing people being like. And I feel like they were. People were lying on the Internet. They were, I know, shocker.
- [108:31]
Amanda McCarty
People were like, yeah, I just.
- [108:33]
Dustin Travis White
Bill from Sheehan. And I was like, for what? I don't think you did. And someone was like, yeah, they asked me for my Social Security number and they sent me a form. So there might have been scammers out there who were benefiting from this, but I knew right away, I was like, sheena's not charging people $30. And I think when it comes to the tariffs, there has been so much chaos. Some people thought, oh, now that the de minimis rule was lifted then that meant that everybody had to pay a 10% tariff or $10. There's that 30 number going around. And I had numerous conversations with people where I was like, actually, duties are a lot more complex than that. It's going to be like fabric content, the category of product. Like, like, don't even get me into, like, the codes for it all. But, like, you know, a sneaker, for example, might be 30% plus $9 or, you know, things I remembered from my time working and buying. And so I was like, there is no simple answer to this. And anyone who is telling you there is this, like, number is wrong.
- [109:32]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. I think what's really disturbing to me is that. And as we said, the Trump administration quickly reversed their original stance on the de minimis rule. Right. So basically they had lifted de minimis and then they put it back. Right. And I wonder how much of that was just them responding to people protesting about how upset they were about the de minimis. Because I know that Trump is extremely sensitive to people, people's, you know, feelings about, you know, all of this. Like, he does not want people to turn against him, especially so soon into his term. Right. Like, he, he wants people to be on his side right now. And so I, I wonder, you know, how much of his reversal was coming from people just having bad information and then just being really, really upset about it. And the reason that, that's problematic to, to me is because I actually think that the Gambinimis rule was a great rule. Yeah, Like, I think that, like, that, that, that, that, you know, sort of like in, like, kind of have or sort of lift. What I mean is that like, having companies pay taxes and duties on small packages was actually like a very, very important way to even the playing field and to get, you know, these ultra fast fashion brands to pay their due. Right? And like, sort of like not cheat the system and sell their stuff at such low prices and sort of like take, you know, like more ethical businesses, you know, out of the market. Right. It was actually a good thing. And I think that like, you know, even though, like, I don't agree with a lot of what the Trump administration is doing, like, I think if they had, you know, you know, if, like, if they had removed the de minimis, it would have actually been a good thing and it could have really been a positive move for, you know, for the fashion industry and move things along, like, as far as sustainability is concerned. And I wonder if all of this misinformation and people's crazy reactions to it is what made him, you know, you know, take, take, you know, reverse his course on that, which is really sad. Right.
- [111:45]
Dustin Travis White
You know, I mean, I was definitely thinking that was probably a part of it. And I also think that, like, you know, because this administration is like, playing fast and loose with the chaos, there's no infrastructure in place right now to process that number of packages and, you know, have someone inspecting them, charging that there's no like, technological infrastructure for collecting all of those duties and then like, enforcing them. And especially now that the genie has been out of the proverbial bottle for years now with Shein and Teemu, I think that people were freaking out because their packages were held up. And I think that that was also like, you know, he probably didn't want people to be mad at him. I mean, he wants a certain kind of person to be mad at him. But not his people to be mad at him. And people were mad. They were like, I'm not. My clothes are held, or I place this important order and I'm not gonna get it. Or I heard him got to pay $30, you know, and I mean, I.
- [112:39]
Elizabeth Segren
Just think that it just. I mean, it just shows kind of, like, the level of incompetence we're dealing with that, you know, he would talk about, you know, like, reinstating the de minimis rule. And, like, it's just, you know, like, what was he thinking? Like, how. Like, what is he thinking about, like, in terms of, like, how he was actually going to be able to execute this, right, at the level of, you know, like, the billion, 1.4 billion packages that are coming through because of Shein and Temu. Like, how are they going to process this? Like, what was he thinking when he made the original, like, decision? Right? Like, he hadn't thought one step ahead about, like, how he was going to execute this. And then on top of that, he's, like, in the business of now, just, like, slashing, you know, government workers. Like, who, like, who is he going to have around to, like, process all of the tariffs now? Like, I just don't get it. Like, I don't understand, like, what he's thinking. And so it just shows, like, a level of incompetence. And. And, yeah, it's, like, super, super frustrating. But again, I come back to the fact that we are in a very particular time. I think we are at the worst moment right now, right? Like, we're early in the Trump term. He has all of this political capital. He feels like he has, like, this. This big, like, endorsement, right, Having come out of this election that he won. But the truth is that he didn't win by a very large margin, you know, and. And among the people that he did win by, you know, many of them, like, voted for him because they wanted a very particular thing from him and that he's not going to be able to deliver. And so things are going to change quickly as this becomes a reality and that as people start protesting, because, you know, he's going to have to start reacting to public sentiment soon. And as he does that, it's not going to be his game anymore. He's not going to be able to just be putting information out there. He's going to be having to react to how, you know, people are responding to him. Right? And so he's going to have to, like, figure out, like, what he needs to do to, like, appease the population. At that point. So I think we just need to like, be calm right now. I mean, this is what I'm telling. I'm also freaking out on the inside. So this is just. This is what I'm telling myself.
- [114:54]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, but.
- [114:55]
Elizabeth Segren
But what I'm telling myself is that, like, this. This is. This. This is the time that we just kind of need to be calm and realize that we are being played. Right. Like, we are being overwhelmed right now with all of this information, and it's designed to make us feel exhausted and unable to do anything. And that's exactly what he wants. So we just need to just like, check out a little bit. Right. Just long enough that we're able to, you know, to be able to sort of, like, feel like we're in control again of our emotions and of our logic and our reason, and then we can, you know, then we can figure out, like, the best course of action.
- [115:28]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. I think that's, like, the best advice. And that's what I've been trying to do as well. Like, I have this ever growing sense of dread with each day that passed after election day, leading up to Inauguration Day. And I think we all kind of felt that going through the holidays, this, like, heaviness right on Inauguration Day and the days surrounding it. I literally.
- [115:49]
Amanda McCarty
I just kept feeling like I was.
- [115:50]
Dustin Travis White
Gonna throw up, like, the nausea of, like, the overwhelm. And, like, here it is, and it's terrible. But I do think, like you said, it can't maintain this pace. And, you know, the tariffs alone, it's so funny to me because the tariffs sound like this really dry, stupid, boring thing. And I actually think that they could.
- [116:13]
Amanda McCarty
Be the thing that leads to the.
- [116:16]
Dustin Travis White
Greatest resistance against him because he misrepresented what tariffs were and how they work. And all of us who knew knew that that was not how they worked.
- [116:25]
Amanda McCarty
Right.
- [116:25]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah.
- [116:26]
Elizabeth Segren
Literally. It always has an impact on the consumer. What was he like, what was he thinking saying, like, oh, this is not going to affect you guys at all?
- [116:35]
Dustin Travis White
I know, I know. He made a promise that is literally, like, unkeepable. And it would be hilarious to me. In retrospect, of course, I hate all the other stuff that's happening right now, and it is not okay. But it would be funny if the thing that really brings him down is tariffs.
- [116:54]
Elizabeth Segren
Totally. And kind of, to go back to your earlier point, I think a lot of us have been feeling this sense of dread and this sense of kind of paralysis maybe. And I just remember, like, I was Feeling exactly the same way that you were, like, during that period, you know, leading up to the inauguration. Just this sense of wanting to just become very small and, like, sort of, like, look inward and, like, not let anybody, you know, sort of, like, harm me, right? Like, so I. What I was trying to do was I spent a lot of time sort of, like, with my kids and with my. With my husband and, like, with my neighbors, right? That's kind of what I was doing. I was like, I. I just don't have the energy. Energy to be out there, you know, protesting, marching. Like, I just have enough energy for the people around me, and that's all I can do right now. And I thought it was an abdication, you know, at the time when. When all of this was happening, it really felt like I was, like, abdicating for my civic responsibility by just focusing on the people who are, like, directly in front of me. But my. My view on that has, like, completely changed now. I really think that that care and being, like, caring about the people around us is an act of resistance, right? Because I think that, you know, we. We need a moment to. To build each other up and, like, to focus on the things that really matter to us, right? And to. And to sort of, like, just remember the communities that we're in and. And strengthen those communities. I think it's important because not, number one, like, that's just. That's just, like, an important part of life, like, finding joy and. And support and love in the communities around us. Like, you know, the neighbors that we live close to and, like, the friends that we have, like, that's just, like. Like, important to the human experience. And Trump is all about, like, stealing our joy right, right now. And, like, we can't let him have that, right? So that. That's. That's the first thing. That. That's why it's important. But then secondly, I think that ultimately, for the resistance to be strong and to build up, right, like, this is what we're doing right now. We're, like, sort of laying the foundation there, strengthening one another, giving each other, like, what we need right now to kind of recover from the shock and to feel good again so that when the time comes for those protests, we'll be there and we'll be ready. And, like, with kids especially, right, like, we are playing the longest game there is, right? Like, my kids, like, by pouring everything that I can into them and raising them to be, you know, ethical, like, you know, like good citizens who are able to understand right from wrong and, like, want to be kind and support the weakest among us, right? Like that is the longest game you can play, right? Like, like they're going to rise up eventually. We're going to be past this moment and they're going to be the next generation of, of whatever, like whatever leaders right in this country. And so I think that it's not an abdication, I think that that's perfectly reasonable thing to do. And I think that like care is an act of resistance and joy is an act of resistance, you know.
- [120:06]
Dustin Travis White
I totally agree. Yeah. I think that this time, this, this time that Trump is president feels different than the last time. And I hate that I have to even say the first time versus this time out loud. And I think that I have grown so much as a person since that first time and like my capacity for understanding myself, I think, and people around me and I feel better prepared for it this time. Whereas the last time it was just like a non stop panic, stomach ache, chaos. And now I can sort of see the forest for the trees if I take that step back and don't let myself like drown in doom scrolling.
- [120:49]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah. And the one piece of kind of hopeful insight that I've had recently is that, you know, like, I think about how Trump became, you know, the leader of this country, right? And it was like in the aftermath of Obama getting elected, right? So Obama got elected. The, the Republicans were like in a state of shock. They like did not understand what was going on. And then they slowly sort of like came together like in small groups, grassroots, like at the Tea Party. And then they, you know, they, they built themselves up and you know, then a leader like Trump came along and they just sort of fixated on him. And then, and then here, here he is like that is like a terrible situation that, like, that, you know, like, like I, I don't like sort of agree with the beliefs that this group of people had, but I think it could be a useful way to think about how we will come back from this. Right. Like, we don't understand the country that we're living in right now. Right. Like we don't understand what is happening and how this kind of authoritarianism is how this happened. Like, how is this the country that we know and love, right? But eventually, eventually we are going to get our bearings together. We are going to form small groups, we are going to build a resistance and we are going to find a kind person who is invested in making this country better and supporting the weak and the poor. And when this leader comes up, the time will be Right. And we'll be able to take our country back. But it's a slow process, and I think we're just at. At the beginning of it, and that might be like, a good model for us to sort of think about.
- [122:40]
Dustin Travis White
I mean, I agree with that. You know, something that I think about a lot is the people who have supported Trump were really able to all come into it with slightly or more egregiously differing beliefs from one another. Like, some of them are coming at it like, the only issue I care about is, like, you know, making abortion illegal. Right. And others come in like, I'm purely about, like, the fiscal aspect of it. Right. And some people come in and they're like, I'm racist. So I, like, love this. Right. And the people who are fiscally, fiscally minded might not really care about, like, reproductive freedom or racism very much, but they're like, you know what? This guy gets me enough to where I need to go that I'm going to work with all these other people. And we do, we do a really terrible job of that on the progressive side. And we need to stop. We need to be like, we don't agree 100% on things. I mean, obviously, I'm not being like, you should be super chill with racism or something, but I'm just saying, like, right. They are able to form a coalition when they definitely do not agree on everything, but they see the big picture. And unfortunately, we need to do the.
- [123:44]
Amanda McCarty
Same thing on the left.
- [123:47]
Elizabeth Segren
Yeah, yeah. And I think that. I think that at some point soon we're going to have a particular issue that we. That a large number of us will be able to agree on and, like, rally around. Right. Like, it's unclear exactly what that going to be at this point, I think, because there's so many issues. And again, it's like this, this flood the zone strategy. But at some point, enough of us are going to feel a conscience around a particular issue. It could be like, deportations. It could be like, the way that he's like, you know, tearing apart the federal government and taking away the social safety net. Maybe that's going to be the issue. I don't, I don't know at this point, but at some point there's going to be something that, that gets enough of us to feel strongly about it and, and then we're, you know, we're going to, you know, rally. But, but to get there, I think we, we need to be. We need to, like, sort of like, take back control, right. Like, of our emotions and, you know, And I think that, that, that it's perfectly reasonable right now for us to sort of focus on pulling back a little bit and not being overwhelmed and caring for the people around us in small ways. And like, when that, you know, that, that point of agreement comes about, like, we'll be there and we'll be ready and we'll be, we'll do all the things, we'll organize, we'll protest, we'll do everything that we need to do. But yeah, we need to, we need to, like, we need to be in a sound state of mind to get to that point.
- [125:19]
Amanda McCarty
Yeah.
- [125:19]
Elizabeth Segren
So I think it's all about, like, focusing on our mental health right now.
- [125:23]
Dustin Travis White
Totally, Totally.
- [125:24]
Amanda McCarty
Well, Liz, I wanted to thank you.
- [125:25]
Dustin Travis White
So much for sharing so much great wisdom and expertise. And I, I know that everybody who.
- [125:31]
D
Listens to this is going to just.
- [125:33]
Dustin Travis White
Be so thankful that you stopped by to talk.
- [125:37]
Elizabeth Segren
Thank you so much for having me. I've again, like, long time listener, first time caller, but this was, like, this was really fun. It's always fun to talk to you and thank you for everything that you're doing with this, with this podcast. I feel like, you know, it's, it's like, it's a, it's like a consciousness raising. It's like a grassroots consciousness raising effort that's happening here, and I love it.
- [125:56]
Amanda McCarty
Yeah.
- [125:56]
Dustin Travis White
I feel like we, I think that we're on the way to something this year. I mean, even just that, like, the fashion act was just introduced in California feels totally massive to me. And I'm going to tell you, I started this year like, well, we should probably give up on the fashion act this year because we're going to be too busy, like, trying to stay alive or whatever. And it's like, no, it's happening. Good things are happening out there. It's just hard to hear them right now or see them because there's all this other stuff that's sort of drowning it out. But I want everyone to know that good things are happening.
- [126:27]
Elizabeth Segren
And in some ways, the Trump administration is also in a state of chaos. They can't focus on killing every good thing that's happening on our side as well. Right. And so, so it's actually like a good time for us to be, like, in stealth mode, like, doing the things that we need to do. Right. To make the world a better place. Yeah. So wonderful talking to you.
- [126:51]
Dustin Travis White
So great to talk to you.
- [126:57]
Amanda McCarty
Thank you so much to Liz for spending time with us. I had such a great time and I hope she comes back to clothesh again. She definitely made me feel like, you know what? We're gonna get through this together, and we will. You know, I'm not saying things are gonna be easy. We're gonna have to sacrifice things, we're gonna have to do things that make us feel uncomfortable. But we are gonna get through this. You can, of course find all of Liz's great work@fastcompany.com where she covers all kinds of business issues with a particular focus on sustainability and innovation. Also, Liz is working on a children's book about slow fashion. I'm so excited about this because as we talked about in the capitalism board games episode, what we hear and learn as children really impacts our behavior and values as adults. So Liz is going to have to come back when her book is released so we can talk all about it. I think this is amazing. Before we wrap up this episode, I just wanted to recap Liz's tips for reading and processing news. Why is this is so important? Because knowing the facts is actually a form of resistance in a time where, well, lots of people just don't want to know the facts. Right. It makes it easier, I don't know, to cope, to be on the side of terrible things. You take your pick. It's a lot easier when you don't.
- [128:27]
Dustin Travis White
Know the full story.
- [128:30]
Amanda McCarty
That's why for all of us who feel that change and resistance are really important, it's essential that we know how to find and use facts and reliable information. First things first. And I know you hate this. Gotta say it. Don't get your news from social media. Or at least not, not solely from social media. As we said in our conversation, in the best case scenario, the nuance just isn't there. And in the worst case scenario, it's misleading or completely untrue. Next, you want to fact check what you see in social media posts. It's as simple as doing an online search. You can use Google, but skip the AI answers because they're usually wrong. But you can also use any other search engine. Look for articles from reputable news sources. Some will have paywalls, but look for ones that don't. Usually there's at least one out there that is unpaywalled. Next. This is really, really important. Read the whole article. Not just the headline, not just the first sentence or paragraph. Because this world and it's happening, they're complicated. Nuance requires more than a few sentences or a 30 second video to explain it all. So read the whole article. Also, I just want to call out here in the digital Age. Most titles for articles, AKA what we would see as the headlines online, are actually written with SEO in mind. And SEO stands for Search Search Engine Optimization. That's a lot of words that, trust me, make a big difference in terms.
- [130:21]
Dustin Travis White
Of how much traffic is driven towards.
- [130:24]
Amanda McCarty
An article or even a product on a website. And it's all about using words within the headline that attract people via their Internet searches. And so the person who's writing the headline for these articles, the title that you see on the site, they're actually thinking about what are the most popular words that people search that will bring them to this website when they're searching for them. And that means that sure, they're not going to use words that are completely unrelated to the article, but at the same time, they're not really necessarily conveying what's within that article in that title. They're trying to drive traffic, right? So you should never base your, I don't know, feeling about what an article is, about what it's going to say.
- [131:30]
Dustin Travis White
Or much less what the full story.
- [131:33]
Amanda McCarty
Is based on that title. It is very important. I'll just say it again that you read the whole thing. Next, I want to tell you to not be afraid to follow the thread of this fact checking and go down an information rabbit hole. For example, there's this post that a bunch of my friends shared that I needed to fact check. I knew it was mostly inaccurate, but I needed to know the full story behind it, right? It was a post I saw on social media about the US giving all of this money to Israel. I want to say like $8 billion in one day, but then only giving $700 to survivors of the LA fires. And I think I mentioned this in our last episode. It was from that account, Seasters Jones. Well, as I was digging into this, I learned so much other stuff that actually made me take action as a concerned citizen. And I'm glad I went down this rabbit hole, which maybe took all of 5, 10 minutes to just read a few different articles and get the facts right. So first I learned that obviously I already knew this one going into it. Fire survivors would get more than $700 in assistance in the long term, right, from FEMA. And I knew this from all the flooding in the south earlier this year, where that was also going around. And I saw people sharing that, and that wasn't true either. You get more than $700. The $700 is just an emergency payment for necessities, things like formula and toiletries and medicines and things like that. And it's designed to happen really fast. More money comes after that. It has a lot to do with insurance. And, you know, there's red tape, of course, there's bureaucracy. There's all kinds of things to fill out and file and such, but there's more there than that. $700. And I hate that this keeps making the rounds around the Internet. So if you see people saying that, stop it. But something that was interesting to me is that $700 doesn't feel like very much money in 2025 when things are so expensive. And I wondered where that number came from. So it turns out that that number is dictated by Congress, which I found by reading a bunch of different articles from reliable news sources about this. And that number has been in place for quite some time. So I wrote to my congressman about increasing the initial emergency FEMA payments to align with the cost of living increases. And actually, I got a really nice response that was basically like, hey. You know, I mean, this is. They didn't say hey to me, but it's basically like, you know, thank you for your feedback. This is actually that I'm going to think about. And that felt pretty good, you know. Okay, next I learned that, you guessed it, Congress actually determines the assistance and weapons sales to Israel. Okay. To be fair, I didn't 100% know that. I mean, it felt weird to me that the President would be doing that because Congress controls the budget and spending. But, you know, I needed to confirm it for myself. The President can say no to any sort of weapons or assistance to Israel or any other country, but Congress actually has the jurisdiction here, and they can override the President. So in most situations, if the President says no, wants to put a stop to it, it's really more of just like a protest, and it probably won't stick. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taking that stand and protesting these actions. I think that's really, really important.
- [135:12]
Dustin Travis White
But I do also think it's really.
- [135:14]
Amanda McCarty
Important to point out that, and I know it doesn't feel like that right now. The President of the United States is not a king, no matter what you've heard out there. I hate that Trump is currently seeming to imply otherwise, but actually, the reason the United States has different branches of government is so that not one person.
- [135:39]
Dustin Travis White
Gets to call the shots.
- [135:40]
Amanda McCarty
And so the Supreme Court is there to check things that the President does as well as what Congress does, as well as what other courts do. Congress is there to check what the President does. I guess they can kind of check the Supreme Court by, you know, passing laws, pushing back, you know, not voting to approve appointments. But in general, our government is more complicated than we tend to talk about it on social media. And I think that understanding the facts, getting the full picture, is actually just so essential in terms of making our activism effective because we know who and what we need to do. One last thing that I learned on my rabbit hole, about how much money people in LA were receiving after the fires versus how much money we were giving to Israel and weapons to kill, you know, innocent people. Frankly, I don't care if people are un innocent because I don't think our government should be or, well, any government should be killing people, period. But one other thing I learned going down this rabbit hole that it's one of those things where like, of course this is happening and I, I don't know I'm going to do with this information, but it, it's definitely got me thinking about some stuff I learned from this amazing ProPublica article that I will share in. The show notes that American weapons manufacturers have actually been aggressively lobbying government officials within the State Department and other agencies to get them to agree to huge weapon sales to Israel. You know, for obvious, not at all super dark and horrible late stage capitalism reasons. Right?
- [137:31]
Dustin Travis White
Yeah, it's pretty dark.
- [137:32]
Amanda McCarty
Right. And of course there's a lobby for selling weapons, but I didn't know about it. Or maybe, yeah, I don't think I specifically knew about it, but am I surprised by it? Not exactly. Anyway, I'm glad that I have this information I don't know I'm going to do with makes this whole thing way more complicated. Right. Once again, news has nuance. Effective high quality reporting and journalism and news has nuance. And you're never going to get this whole thing that I just told you from an Instagram post or a TikTok. So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is follow the thread, learn the full story and then tell people what you know. Because of course not everybody has the bandwidth or patience to go this deep into it. And I hope just hearing me talk about my adventure through this was helpful for you, but obviously I can't do that for everyone about every news story out there. And maybe you can be one of the people out there who's sharing the information that you learned with people. Not every fact checking mission that you go on has to be this intense. But knowing the facts can only make our actions more effective. And oh yeah, you need to support the news. I'm a big NPR supporter. I'm sustaining member here, which means I donate every month. I did have a subscription to the Washington Post and another to the New York Times. I cut the Washington Post one off during the election for many reasons. I had quit the New York Times for budget reasons, but I think I'm going to bring it back because I actually use their archives quite a bit for my research here. And tbh, I kind of want the recipes from New York Times cooking. I'm missing those.
- [139:18]
Dustin Travis White
I cook a lot so I've get in there.
- [139:20]
Amanda McCarty
I've been in a rut. I need some new content anyway. Subscribe to your favorite news source. You could even share subscriptions with a friend or roommate. I think that it's really important that not only do we read and engage with high quality reporting and reliable news, I think it's also really important that we support these institutions so that they'll still be around. So if you have the ability to subscribe to something, please do. Here's the thing. Things are hard right now and sometimes it's really hard to stay optimistic and motivated. It might seem unlikely, but to you, since I've been spending so much time working on closed source stuff over the past few years, you know, trying to get out there and spread the word and motivate people to work together to change the world, trying to be like a positive presence, a positive force in this world.
- [140:16]
Dustin Travis White
But even I get that feeling of.
- [140:18]
Amanda McCarty
Hopelessness, of powerlessness quite often. My mental health has been on a roller coaster all year, since the election, since before the election. And I have to remind myself that yes, one person can't change the world on their own, but when many or even all of us are working, are making a concerted effort to do things differently and better, change does and will happen. When we work alongside one another, social change begins. And over time, what we think of as a normal day to day life changes. And I've seen it play out over and over in my lifetime. I mean one is like smartphones, which were preceded by flip phones, which were preceded by your only phone is at home. And let me tell you, these changes in phones alone have changed how we get our news, how we talk to other people, how we share our lives, how we spend our time. I mean it's changed, changed, you know, how we consume news, it's changed how news is reported, it has changed how we socialize. I mean, so many things, right? And these changes happen gradually, but when I look back, they seem so fast and so extreme. That's one example, right? Or how about shopping online? I'M going to tell you, shopping online has been around since the late 90s in a much smaller way. Even in the aughts when I was working at Urban Outfitters as a buyer. Even going like to 2010, right? Getting into the the 2010s. Is that what we call that decade? Do we call it the teens? I don't know. Even leading up to 2010, our website @ Urban would go down all the time for like a whole weekend or a whole week. And it was kind of like NBD because it was such a small part of our sales. You know, five years later, very different story. Ten years later, even bigger story. Shopping online is very normal now. And I honestly don't know one person who is, you know, an adult who has not engaged in online shopping at some point in their lives. But 15 years ago, lots of people still didn't buy stuff online. So that we've seen a major change there and that change how stores operate, where they are, how many stores there are stores closed, right? All impacted by this social change that sort of affected every aspect of our lives. Shopping secondhand even has become normalized so much more in the past few years than it has ever been in my life. As a kid, I was definitely called poor for wearing clothes from yard sales. And at the time, that was very hurtful, even though my family was poor, because someone wasn't saying poor to me to state a fact. They were saying it to make me feel bad. And, you know, now I'm an adult and I recognize that poor is not an insult. It is a state of being.
- [143:26]
Dustin Travis White
It is a reality, and it means.
- [143:28]
Amanda McCarty
You have less money. But I can assure you, anyone who says that, you know, secondhand clothes, ew, poor is just being a jerk. My family was certainly embarrassed that I wore thrifted clothes as a teenager and in my 20s and even still, I'm sure there are some people out there who are holdouts who think that shopping secondhand is gross or poor or whatever dumb adjective they want to throw in there. But the reality is that it is becoming a lot more mainstream. You know, that's because of people like us doing it and talking about it and sharing it with other people. It is these platforms that developed to make it easier for more people to sell and shop online. And we actually spend a lot of time talking and thinking about the ethics of resale and who should thrift and who should not thrift and how these platforms work and how they could be more equitable and all this other stuff. Right? We talk about it Here, but we also talk about it out in our, in the real world, outside of this. And once again, this is a social change that is ongoing, but it has these ripple effects that extend beyond shopping but to like, the environment and society and government regulation of these kinds of things and the waste stream and so much more. Right? So these are all, these are all things that seem small in the beginning and in hindsight become very large. And all of these big changes began with early adopters. I remember in the 90s buying stuff off of ebay and everybody thought that was the craziest thing I could ever do. How could I buy something on the Internet from a stranger, right? Over time, that became far more normalized. I remember when cell phones began to be a thing, only like rich people had them, right? Or people who were like, techie, like, worked in, you know, like the Internet, like startup bubble had them. And then soon I had a flip phone instead of a home phone. And my mom thought that was crazy, right? So now everyone has like a computer in pocket, basically. So early adopters, they got in there, more people caught on, and over time, it changed how everyone lives. Well, we, we are the early adopters of slow fashion and I guess like slow everything. And in that way, right now, not only we early adopters, we are like, we're the resistance, right? We're radical, we're revolutionary. And what we do, it matters. Thanks for listening to another episode of Closed Source. Written, researched, edited, hosted all the things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty. As always, if you liked what you heard, leave a rating, a review, subscribe all those things. But most importantly, tell a friend if you'd like to support my work financially. There are numerous ways you can do that. You can find them in the show notes notes@closehorsepodcast.com and in the link in my bio on all the social media platforms. I did just want to say I am trying my hardest as some of you have left meta to reach you in all the different places. It is a lot of work, but I'm going to try to keep it up for as long as possible. So as of right now, for just about every post I do on social media, not all, because sometimes they just don't work with the various platforms. I am sharing them on Instagram threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, Tumblr and Substack. Sometimes I even take it all the way to Pinterest. So it's all out there for you to see. Hopefully I'm reaching all of you. I'm doing the best I can. The other thing I wanted to call out is that there are going to be some new stickers hitting the store, the Merch Shop this week that you can check out, including things like making something yourself is a radical act, so go check those out. Lastly, but of course, never leastly, thanks to my other half, Dustin Travis White for our music and audio support. I will talk to you all next week. Bye.
- [147:42]
Elizabeth Segren
Sa.