Episode 233: Making the secondhand economy more equitable, with Valeria of Thryft Ship

Summary

Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty Episode 233: Making the Secondhand Economy More Equitable, with Valeria of Thryft Ship Release Date: May 6, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 233 of Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty, host Amanda Lee McCarty engages in an insightful conversation with Valeria Brenner, CEO and founder of Thryft Ship. The episode delves deep into the intricacies of the secondhand economy, exploring its current challenges, the pervasive myths propagated on social media, and the systemic inequities faced by resellers on major platforms. Valeria shares her journey from being a reseller to establishing Thryft Ship, a solution aimed at streamlining the shipping process for secondhand resellers, thereby fostering a more equitable marketplace.

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The Current State of the Secondhand Economy

Valeria begins by painting a picture of the secondhand economy in 2025, highlighting its rapid growth despite the chaotic and overwhelming global events that many resellers face. She notes the persistent myths and misconceptions circulating on social media regarding who deserves access to secondhand clothing and the ethics of reselling.

Notable Quote:

"Social media is still full of myths about reselling and thrifting. And two heavy air quotes here. Who deserves secondhand clothes? Yeah, people are fighting about who can buy, wear, and sell secondhand clothing on social media."
— Valeria [02:16]

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Challenges Faced by Resellers on Major Platforms

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the high fees imposed by major reselling platforms like Poshmark, Depop, ThredUp, and RealReal. Valeria critiques these platforms for prioritizing buyers over resellers, leading to financial strain for individual sellers. She points out that while these platforms offer convenience, they often make it challenging for resellers to maintain a sustainable income.

Notable Quotes:

"Poshmark is making more profit off of a pretty standard sale on Poshmark than the seller is."
— Amanda [37:31]

"The degree of these kinds of fees can be surprising to them. They don't understand that sometimes what you're asking for in terms of a price, after the fees are deducted, it usually doesn't leave much money for the seller."
— Amanda [27:33]

Valeria emphasizes that platforms like Poshmark charge significant percentages (e.g., 20% on sales over $15), which severely limits the profit margins for resellers, especially those selling lower-priced items. This fee structure not only makes it difficult to earn a living but also discourages resellers from scaling their businesses.

Notable Quote:

"If you are a reseller on Instagram, every single item that you sell is through a DM... that means you're looking through 30 to 40 different DMs and copying over that address for shipping into a site like Pirate Ship. And that was so, so time-consuming, not to mention so error-prone and expensive."
— Valeria [116:56]

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Valeria’s Solution: Thryft Ship

Valeria introduces Thryft Ship as a response to the inefficiencies and high costs associated with existing reselling platforms. Thryft Ship aims to automate and streamline the shipping process for resellers, particularly those selling on Instagram and Facebook Marketplace. By providing a free-to-use platform with discounted shipping rates and automated tracking, Thryft Ship reduces the time and effort resellers spend on administrative tasks, allowing them to focus more on sourcing and selling.

Key Features of Thryft Ship:

• Automated Shipping Links: Resellers can share a unique shipping link with customers, simplifying the address collection and tracking process.
• Discounted USPS Labels: Thryft Ship offers USPS labels at rates just 30 cents higher than Pirate Ship, with plans to match or beat competitors’ rates as the platform grows.
• Order Management: The platform allows resellers to manage multiple orders efficiently, adding items to existing shipments to save on costs.
• Future Enhancements: Thryft Ship is developing features like inventory uploads and automated DM responses to further ease the selling process.

Notable Quote:

"Thriftship was born out of that [shipping]... our goal is to expand to encapsulate the entire sales process so that you as an Instagram seller don't have to sacrifice any of your time on manual tasks."
— Valeria [121:20]

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The Importance of Community

Both Amanda and Valeria underscore the vital role of community support in the secondhand resale industry. They discuss how resellers often feel isolated but find solace and strength in online communities where they can share experiences, seek advice, and offer mutual support. Valeria highlights the positive impact of collaborative efforts, such as group chats and community-driven initiatives, in combating the negativity and misinformation spread on social media.

Notable Quotes:

"The reseller community is just like so amazing and why you should be a part of it if you are selling secondhand clothing now."
— Amanda [09:07]

"Community is everything. Definitely feel free to reach out to us at Thriftship... resellers, they're there with open arms."
— Valeria [129:22]

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Addressing Anti-Reseller Sentiment and Misinformation

The episode delves into the prevalent anti-reseller rhetoric on platforms like Reddit, Threads, and Instagram. Valeria attributes this negativity to misinformation and the broader societal tendency to scapegoat resellers amidst various global frustrations. She emphasizes the importance of debunking these myths by providing factual information and fostering understanding about the ethical and environmental benefits of the secondhand economy.

Notable Quotes:

"People start thinking, okay, well if all these people believe it and all these people are like retweeting it, this means it has to be true."
— Valeria [46:38]

"Understanding the facts about what's happening on the resale landscape can actually make one it easier to support resellers because you understand now where the prices are kind of coming from and what they mean and what your money does in this situation."
— Amanda [53:34]

Valeria also discusses how resellers can counteract negative sentiments by being transparent about their costs and the effort involved in the reselling process. She suggests strategies like clearly communicating shipping costs and the value resellers provide to help educate consumers.

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Solutions for a More Equitable Secondhand Economy

The conversation explores potential solutions to create a more equitable secondhand economy. Valeria proposes several changes to the current platform fee structures:

1. Reduced Fees for Lower-Priced Items: Platforms could lower or eliminate fees for items under a certain price threshold (e.g., $15), making it financially viable for resellers to sell lower-priced items without incurring losses.
2. Enhanced Transparency: Platforms should provide clear and upfront information about fees and how they affect sellers' profits, fostering trust and informed decision-making.
3. Improved Seller Tools: Developing robust analytics and business tools would help resellers track their sales, understand market trends, and optimize their strategies without relying on manual spreadsheets.
4. Supporting Alternative Platforms: Encouraging the use of alternative platforms like Instagram, where resellers can maintain more control over their earnings and build personal relationships with customers.

Notable Quotes:

"Transparency was more real or more present, a lot of these issues would go away because everyone feels like they are agreeing and participating in something that they truly, truly know about."
— Valeria [66:31]

"If Poshmark said things that sell for under $15 have zero selling fees, what could that be a win?"
— Amanda [71:04]

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Valeria’s Final Insights and Encouragement

As the episode wraps up, Valeria shares her optimism for the future of the secondhand economy and the role of Thryft Ship in facilitating this growth. She encourages resellers to engage with their communities, stay adaptable to social media trends, and continue supporting one another. Valeria emphasizes that by making the selling process more efficient and equitable, platforms like Thryft Ship can empower resellers to thrive and contribute positively to the circular economy.

Notable Quotes:

"Community is everything. Resellers, they're there with open arms. So that is, that's my two, my two cents on the whole thing."
— Valeria [129:22]

"Go with a friend, go to the thrift stores. Just spend two hours looking through... you're gonna find something that's either gonna make you laugh your ass off or make your jaw drop to the ground."
— Valeria [129:22]

Valeria concludes by highlighting the continuous enhancements Thryft Ship is making to support resellers, from automating order tracking to improving shipping costs and expanding inventory management features.

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Conclusion

Episode 233 of Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty offers a comprehensive exploration of the secondhand resale industry, highlighting the systemic challenges faced by resellers on major platforms and presenting viable solutions through the innovative work of Thryft Ship. Valeria Brenner’s insights underscore the necessity of fostering a more equitable and transparent marketplace, where resellers can sustain their businesses without undue financial burden. The episode serves as both a critique of existing systems and a beacon of hope for a more collaborative and supportive secondhand economy.

For those interested in supporting an equitable secondhand economy, Valeria’s Thryft Ship represents a promising step towards empowering individual resellers and enhancing the overall sustainability of the fashion industry.

Transcript

[Amanda]

Welcome to Closed Source, the podcast that is just like so happy, so delighted that spring has arrived.

[Valeria]

Seriously, like, what a difference some sunshine and some blue skies will make when you're feeling just overwhelmed by the world and yard sale season. My favorite time of year is fully, fully happening right now. Last Saturday we got up so early to hit the yard sale circuit. Got a great butter dish. Dustin got a bunch of like 90s indie tapes, like cassette tapes that he's very excited about. And next weekend one of our favorite community yard sales is happening and we're going to be getting up. Like, I swear I'd like Dawn to get out there. It's the yard sale lifestyle, hashtag, yard sale life, right? Anyway, I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 2 33.

[Amanda]

So I want you to picture it.

[Valeria]

It's 2025, we're almost halfway through this year, and there are literally so many things happening right now that are scary and tragic and rage inducing and just like so overwhelming, it feels like too much to choose what you want to process and react to first, right? Because, wow, we really have our hands full. Yet, believe it or not, with all of this going on, social media is still full of myths about reselling and thrifting. And two heavy air quotes here. Who deserves secondhand clothes? Yeah, people are fighting about who can buy, wear and sell secondhand clothing on social media. I've been tagged in numerous posts over the past few weeks and last week I rolled my eyes so hard they practically fell out of my head when I scrolled past a post on threads that said something like, ugh, I guess we're going to see more gentrification of thrift stores now because of the tariffs.

[Amanda]

I should have scrolled past, but of course I looked at the comments and.

[Valeria]

They were full of hand wringing about resellers. Once again, heavy air quotes. Stealing clothes from.

[Amanda]

Once again, another pair of heavy air quotes.

[Valeria]

Poor people.

[Amanda]

I'm bored with it.

[Valeria]

Online squabbles about who should have access to secondhand clothing and where they are allowed to buy it. Honestly, they are distractions from the larger issues facing the world right now. And furthermore, these battles take focus off the real villains, the fashion industry and its overproduction of low quality clothing made of synthetic fibers that are like flooding our thrift stores. No, instead, let's just like fight with other people.

[Amanda]

You know, there's post that's gone around.

[Valeria]

The Internet in many different incarnations since like, I think the dawn of social media, which is essentially like people who make a thousand dollars an hour are trying to tell people who make $25 an hour that people who make $10 an hour are the enemy. And this is what this kind of conversation about people buying and selling secondhand clothing feels like. Like my friends, there are much bigger fish to fry and if you're vegan, there are much bigger blocks of tofu.

[Amanda]

To fry right now.

[Valeria]

And fighting about secondhand clothing on the Internet is just a phenomenal waste of our emotional energy. It's super divisive in a time where we need like minded people to work together, not against one another. And I'll tell you, putting on my conspiracy hat right now, I guess it's made of tinfoil. I do sometimes wonder if Shein and Temu are paying people or at least flooding social media with bots to start online arguments about thrifting. Because fighting about this only benefits fast fashion. It doesn't make better stuff return to the thrift stores. It doesn't make the prices at thrift stores go down. It doesn't change the fundamental fact that we need to be shopping secondhand. And with tariffs and the end of the de minimis loophole, these companies are feeling worried, right? So I wouldn't once again still wearing my tinfoil hat. I, I wouldn't be surprised if we see more anti thrifting messaging on social media.

[Amanda]

So keep your eyes out for it.

[Valeria]

Because I've also been seeing random posts.

[Amanda]

Here and there and you know, now.

[Valeria]

That I have to post clothes source on every single social media platform out there, I'm seeing a whole mix of stuff. I am seeing more posts kind of talking about how gross secondhand shopping is.

[Amanda]

Too and like how oops, I bought.

[Valeria]

This thing and it was filled with pee or something.

[Amanda]

So I just wonder, right?

[Valeria]

I'm not saying that's definitely happening. We've seen these kinds of operations on social media using bots and real people to create disinformation, create sort of like a different PR messaging in some major celebrity stories over the past few years. You can't tell me these kinds of tricks aren't also being used by brands.

[Amanda]

So just something to be aware of.

[Valeria]

Also, while I'm bored and tired of fighting back against these kinds of messages, I also know that the future is secondhand. Or more specifically, we need to collectively cut our consumption of new clothing by 75% which means we need most people buying secondhand clothing most of the time. And that means that the circular economy, the secondhand economy, needs to grow and flourish. Right now we live in a golden era of shopping secondhand if you're the customer, right, there are so many options available, and in most situations you can find what you're looking for very specifically by just spending some time searching online. But the infrastructure as it exists right now for the people doing the work of finding, repairing, cleaning and selling secondhand clothing, it's not perfect, it's not equitable, and it has a long way to go to be better.

[Amanda]

I receive a lot of emails from.

[Valeria]

People who want to make a career shift into sustainability. They reach out to me for advice to see if I have any connections, et cetera, and I generally don't know what to say to them because there isn't much to say.

[Amanda]

I steer them towards the Conscious Fashion.

[Valeria]

Collective, which has a jobs board and other resources for sustainable fashion professionals. It's a great, great place to start your search if you're looking to change your career.

[Amanda]

But really what I should start telling.

[Valeria]

Them is look for ways to help make the secondhand supply chain more efficient and equitable. Brainstorm and develop tools that can grow this essential part of our world. Think about circular solutions beyond even clothing, right? Because over consumption is a problem beyond just what we put on our bodies. And a better future requires a better secondhand system. So really, when we're talking about like, we want to get into sustainability, we want to work in sustainability, we want to have a career that makes a difference in the world, secondhand is the place to start. That's all. A very long introduction to this week's guest, Valeria, the CEO and founder of Thriftship, a company that uses technology to make it easier for secondhand resellers to ship affordably and efficiently, particularly if they sell on Instagram and Facebook Marketplace. And as Valeria will explain in this episode, often these platforms make the most financial sense for resellers because they aren't dealing with the high fees of the other platforms like Poshmark and Depop. But organizing shipping from these platforms is really difficult, so Valeria developed a tool to make it easier. And in this episode, we're going to dissect how and why the current state of secondhand resale isn't equitable for the people doing the work. We'll break down the reality of the fees that these platforms are charging and how it makes running a financially sustainable business nearly impossible for secondhand resellers. We'll talk about the socially ingrained expectation of free shipping and how that makes it even more difficult. And we'll discuss how this system could be better. Maybe it will get some of you thinking about new tools and systems for the secondhand economy. Because once again, this is an area of major opportunity when we're talking about the sustainability of what we do for the future. And also, Valeria will explain how the secondhand reseller community is just like so amazing and why you should be a part of it if you are selling secondhand clothing now. I'll admit that I recorded this interview months ago, but I kept pushing out this episode due to a million other factors, not least of all the illnesses in February and March that made me miss a few weeks of episodes this year, and the ever changing, slash chaotic.

[Amanda]

State of the world right now that.

[Valeria]

Had me move things around and create new episodes that I had not originally planned. So one thing I said in our conversation feels super out of date. I said that I hadn't been seeing a lot of anti reseller and arguments about thrifting online. Well, that must have just been because we were all in collective shock about the election and the first few weeks of the Trump presidency. Been there.

[Amanda]

It was terrible. Still is terrible.

[Valeria]

But I'll tell you, wow, that stuff, these same old arguments are back on social media in a big way. And I think it's because in hard times we punch in the direction that seems easiest to reach. And right now it feels like it's thrifting and resellers and people who shop secondhand who we think shouldn't and kind of just expressing our frustration at the about the entire world, kind of taking all that frustration and funneling it somewhere where we feel like it's easy.

[Amanda]

Right? And so why do we turn on.

[Valeria]

One another when things are hard like this? I ask this question all the time.

[Amanda]

But we need to stop.

[Valeria]

I always just say when people when.

[Amanda]

I see this kind of stuff, I.

[Valeria]

Mean, to be honest, I scroll past most of it now because I just don't have the emotional bandwidth to fight with people, even though they're throwing the same bad faith arguments my way. But when someone seems like they are open to changing their perspective. Because once again, I do think a lot of people who are sharing this stuff online, they're just stressed out about the world and this is a place where they feel like they can make an impact or lash out safely. When I do encounter someone who I feel like really is interested in, you know, learning more about this, I always.

[Amanda]

Recommend that they take a listen to.

[Valeria]

The episodes Alex of St. Evans and I did back in 2023, all about the ethics of reselling. I'm sure many of you have listened to them at this point I still stand by them. They are the most comprehensive dissection of the secondhand economy that I have encountered. Not so humble.

[Amanda]

Brag there. To be fair.

[Valeria]

I also just want to say that.

[Amanda]

Recently in the feed, I shared all.

[Valeria]

Four episodes of the series I did with the department about the history of secondhand shopping. And I think they are also really illuminating for people who think that the gentrification of thrift stores is a thing, much less a new thing. So if you haven't ever listened to those, go give those a listen too. Because the very long story short is that thrift stores have never been for, quote, poor people. And furthermore, thrift stores have always been trying to focus on acquiring middle class customers because that's where the money comes from. So go take a listen to those.

[Amanda]

Episodes if you haven't yet. I would also recommend that you, if.

[Valeria]

You haven't already, check out Alex's incredible Substack 1-800-vintage. She covers all kinds of things related to vintage and the secondhand economy. History, ethics, so much more. Great style inspiration.

[Amanda]

I'm going to share a recent piece.

[Valeria]

She wrote about why she no longer calls herself a reseller, opting instead for vintage dealer.

[Amanda]

It's a great read.

[Valeria]

It also raises the question, what should we call secondhand resellers who are selling contemporary clothing rather than vintage? I agree that it's time for a name change, because reseller, honestly, it applies to just about anyone selling something out there that they didn't make with their own hands. And when you're selling secondhand, it's very specialized and it speaks to a list of important skills and tasks involved in finding, curating, repairing, cleaning, and selling secondhand items. I don't have an answer here, but I want to hear from you. What do you think we should call secondhand resellers? Send your answers my way.

[Amanda]

Okay, with all of that, let's jump.

[Valeria]

Into my conversation with Valeria.

[Amanda]

Why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?

[Dustin]

Hello, my name is Valeria Brenner. I'm the CEO and founder of Thrift Ship, a shipping platform for resellers. And I started my career in reselling by thrifting and upcycling clothing that I got from local thrift stores and posting it on Instagram to sell.

[Amanda]

That's amazing. Like, what a. What a great way to, like, just, you know, organic journey into, like, a new career path.

[Dustin]

Yeah, yeah. I always say I fell into it by mistake.

[Amanda]

I mean, honestly, like, just about everything in my life is the same way. So, you know, I think it's interesting. You know, most people, which if this feels shocking for me to say out loud because I'm surrounded by people who are vintage sellers, resellers, upcyclers, designers, etc. But most people actually have never been a reseller or run a business that way, selling secondhand stuff. What were you surprised to learn when you started doing that?

[Dustin]

It totally is, I will say, like a bubble. And then you realize when you talk to someone outside of that bubble that they have no idea what you're talking about. The most surprising thing to me was A, just how amazing the community is in reselling and how supportive and genuine people seem to be. And then B, I started my first reselling business when I was 17 or 18 and I knew, can I cuss on this?

[Amanda]

Yeah, you can definitely cuss.

[Dustin]

I knew jack shit about, like, running a business.

[Amanda]

And so, yeah, that was alright.

[Dustin]

Yeah, it was super surprising to me, like, how like, simple and easy it is to start one, but then how quickly it becomes more and more complex as you typically, like, learn by doing or learn by, like, fucking up, essentially, and then being like, okay, I'm not gonna do that again. And yeah, that was like, the most surprising part to me is just like, how quickly it goes from, like, simple to a lot more complex or thought provoking if you want it to be. Yeah, the kind of caveat to that.

[Amanda]

I mean, I think that's a great way to explain that trajectory because, you know, a lot of people, and I'm sure a lot of people, you know, too, got started on reselling or, you know, upcycling or whatever, having their own small business, like in 2020, right? Like, so, so many businesses started then. And it was kind of easy at first, right? It was like, here's this thing, I'm gonna post it on Instagram, people are gonna buy it. It was like a captive audience. But I always say, like, when you start a business, you often learn, you learn how to do it better by things going really wrong. Like, you know, the average business starts with like, no customer service policy whatsoever. And then like a few years later, it's like, you know, 20 pages long. Because, yeah, so many things went awry down the road, right? And you learned from it. And I feel like that is like, a lot of people for the past few years who started those 2020 businesses are like, shit. Like, this is hard. Like, now it's hard, right? And being a small business owner, no matter what you're selling or what your business is, is really hard.

[Dustin]

It really, really is. And I feel like, it's super important to get, like a community around you of people who are either ahead of you and you know they're aspirational or inspirational for you, or people who are like, right there in the mud with you. And you guys can, like, share back and forth, like, what you're trying out and what's working and what's not working. I feel like teamwork, as cringy as it is, teamwork really does make the dream work. Even if you guys are like, running your businesses independently, like, the overall trajectory is the same and you guys both want to have successful businesses. And if you're in the same industry, like, there's so much you can learn from other people and it like, it. I think a lot of people are like, scared to reach out. At least when they're first starting it. It feels like it's you against the world. But you'd be surprised at the amount of like, like group chats. Communities literally highlights that some businesses have on their Instagram profile of just like, hey, like, you want to start one? Here's like, what I've learned so far. Like, everyone is more than happy to share. There isn't like this trade secret secret that people are trying to keep from you. It's like, here's what I've learned, here's what's worked for me. Here are mistakes I made, Here are ones that maybe you can avoid, you know, repeating.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. And I do feel like, I mean, every once in a while you will encounter someone who is like, no, I don't want to, like, be collaborative or supportive on any level. And you know what, that person probably sucks, but they are the exception. And hopefully they won't be in business in a few years because the world will figure out that they suck. But I do think, like, I tell people all the time, so many of us are kind of living our lives by learning things the hard way, especially when it comes to business. And the reality is that you don't have to learn everything the hard way because probably someone else in your community already learned that and can tell you what they learned and you don't have to, like, wait for things to go terribly awry. And I think that's one of the things I love most actually about specifically the reseller community is I see that level of, like, collaboration and community support to a degree that I don't see anywhere else.

[Dustin]

Yeah, no. I've seen lifelong friendships occur, like before my very eyes, like through group chats or like two to five accounts are getting together, or like, reseller accounts are getting together to do a giveaway. And then, like, the conversation continues after, like, the details have been planned. It's like, so, like, what's your name? Like, where are you from? And then the conversation goes like, there are people that I still keep in touch with years later, even after, like, I've kind of slowed down on the reselling end and focus more on supporting the community that, like, I keep in touch with personally and, like, business professionally, I guess would be, like, an okay way to say that personally and professionally.

[Amanda]

I mean, I love that. I think that that is. That is so true. And I would just say, like, across the board, the people I know out there who run small businesses, no matter what those businesses are, that are the most, like, collaborative and supportive and welcoming to other small business owners. Those are the people who actually really do succeed, like, long term. Because they're like, I don't know. I'm not saying, like, I believe in karma, but they are just showing the world in all these different ways that they're good and it really does work out. Even though I know sometimes it feels like only the worst people succeed. That's not actually real. Like, not from a longevity standpoint.

[Dustin]

I agree. No, I agree completely. Like, give good, get good is kind of what I always think.

[Amanda]

Totally. So today we're going to talk a lot about kind of, like, what it is to be a reseller. We're going to talk about the platforms, the fees, the challenges of being a reseller, all of these different things, especially, like, if you're selling online. And I would say, you know, the future of our planet depends on most people buying most of their clothing secondhand. And I mean, like, most people, your parents, your neighbors, your coworkers, not just the people in our bubble. And sometimes I have to remind myself that we are in a bubble. But I do think that that bubble is actually growing. Right?

[Dustin]

I agree. Yeah.

[Amanda]

It's like more mainstream than ever to shop secondhand. And I think it helps that it's easier than it's ever been to find really just about anything secondhand by just picking up your phone. Like, you don't have to ever set foot or go to a yard sale or a flea market. Like, you can find it. But we have found over and over again, this is something I talk about all the time here on Clothes Horse, and I know you have seen as well, is that big companies are like, kind of unfortunately at this point are driving what it means to shop secondhand online. And they fall into two categories. Right. There are the Ones? Well, I can only think of two of them. ThredUp and the RealReal, where people send in the stuff and then they do the work of photographing, listing, measuring, writing a copy, housing the inventory and shipping it off. And those companies don't actually, like, they. They just lose money. I think that Real Real made a little bit of a profit at the end of last year. But Thredup is like, I don't know. I don't know how this is. Like, it makes me think of places like we work and stuff where they just keep taking tons of money, but they lose tons of money every year. And people are like, oh, no problem. Right. Like, Thredup still loses so much money because listing that stuff, you know, photographing it, measuring it, making sure it's in good condition, you know, housing it, then shipping it up, doing the customer service. As you know, that is a lot of work. And where people are working, things cost money. And it's hard for these companies to make their value proposition work. So, yeah, then there are these other platforms where people sell directly, like individual resellers or people who just want to clean out their closets. They sell to the customers. It's called peer to peer selling. You know, it's like Poshmark, Depop, eBay, Mercari. There's so many platforms now. People will be like, oh, you forgot this one. Because there's just so many. And the problem there is not that this is happening because these people do really important work. The problem is there's not a lot of equity in there for the resellers themselves because of all of the fees. And I liken it to, like, if you're at. If you think of a mall, Poshmark or ebay or whatever, that's the mall. Right. And the resellers are the stores within the mall. Right. And if the stores move out of the mall, then the mall is just an empty building that sits there until, like, rats move in or something, and it doesn't exist. Right. So when you think about the mall, the customers of the mall are actually the stores. And when we talk about these platforms, Poshmark, Depop, their customers are actually the resellers, not the people buying stuff. But I often find and observe that these platforms are prioritizing the people buying the stuff over the real source of the income, which is the resellers.

[Dustin]

Yeah. Literally those who, like, bring the inventory. The cut they get depending on the platform is. It can be abysmal. And I feel like we can definitely dive in there where there are, like, Certain platforms like Poshmark recently that's been toying around with this, like, percentage fee or, like, flat fee that customers. And by customers, I mean small businesses get for all the hard work that they're doing and how there is a lot of like, like, what's the word I'm thinking of? Like, not lash.

[Amanda]

Backlash.

[Dustin]

Backlash. Thank you. I don't know. I was like, what is my brain doing? Yeah, there's a lot of backlash that they've been getting from small businesses for, like, just, I don't know, fucking them over is, like, the best way I can put it. Like, I look at some of these fees and I look at how they're structured, and I'm like, you're doing so, so much work. And yes, like, there of course are, like, values to selling on structured platforms such as that security of, like, you know, transactions being securely processed and like, refunds and handling a lot of, like, the heavy legwork for you. But I sometimes feel like the fee, the price of all of that isn't what it actually should be. Like, the fee should be lower. These are things that small businesses can do themselves, but if they really want to, it's a really, really expensive process for them, like, as a single person to do. And so, I don't know, I feel like there has to be another way rather than, like, putting it behind a paywall, like finding a way to make it more accessible to the individual seller rather than forcing them to be a part of a conglomerate.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. And I mean, like, to be clear, places like Poshmark or Depop or any of these platforms, they're not actually handling any products at all. What they're doing is offering people the space, the mall, to show up and sell their products. And to be honest, if mall stores were charging the kind of per transaction cut that these platforms are, there would have never been any malls because it's just. It makes it impossible to actually run a viable business. And from the customer perspective, well, there have been some exceptions which we're going to get into. You generally don't see this. So when customers show up and they see something they want to buy, they are thinking, like, what's the price I'm willing to pay for this? And also, like, can I get free shipping? I mean, that. That tends to be the two things. Right? And I mean, anyone who sold on any of these platforms at all ever has experience just egregious lowballing offers from people where they're like, oh, this thing that you listed, that full price retail is 300 and you listed for $100. Can I get that for 25? And you're like, no, right?

[Dustin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

But anyway, you know, so in most cases, like, what's happening is, like, the sellers are giving a cut of that sale to the platform. Right. And the. The customers, the people showing up to buy the stuff, they don't see that. And I think that alone is, I think, is really surprising to them or like, what the degree of these kinds of fees can be. They don't understand that sometimes what you're asking for in terms of a price, after the fees are deducted, it usually doesn't leave much money for the seller, especially if they bought that inventory. If they repaired it, laundered it, they have to pay for packaging to put it in. Like, it becomes a point where, like, why would I make $2 off of this?

[Dustin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And I think that conversely, I think some platforms were like, okay, well, how about rather than the sellers paying a fee, we charge the buyers? Right. So I know that Mercari has been doing that for quite some time, right?

[Dustin]

Yes. Well, they started it, like, in March of this year, and it was this big. Like, everyone's gasping, like, they're doing what? And then it seemed so, so cool and unique at the beginning. But of course, like, whenever something sounds too good to be true, it is. It always fucking is. Because while they now, you know, do a zero selling fee, they're making buyers. So the customers handle, you know, the typical things, which is payment, sales, shipping. Then there's also a selling fee, and then, of course, a payment processing fee that they're having to cover. And so what we've seen happen, at least with some Mercari sellers, is they're selling less because their customers are like, wait, this looks like it's supposed to be $5. And now after everything, it ends up being, like 10 to 15 because of all of the other costs involved. And then they end up rejecting the sale or they get mad, not at, you know, Mercari, but at the small business of, like, why weren't you upfront about how much this would have cost me?

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

Like, why do I have to go through the entire checkout process only to realize, like, this is not as good of a steal as I thought it would be, but they don't have any control over that. And so it. It presented a very interesting dynamic where it. It seems like putting it on the buyer is almost worse than putting it on the seller, at least in terms of, like, actually being able to sell product and move product.

[Amanda]

I mean, I Unfortunately, I have to say, yeah, it's true. I used to. Mercari was sort of like my go to for certain items for quite some time. And when they started, like, once again, when they announced this, like, buyer's fee, I was like, this is great, because while I am not a reseller, I have done so much time researching and talking about how inequitable the reseller system is right now because these platforms. And I was like, this is great. Until I went on Makari and tried to buy something, and I feel like the prices are kind of hidden until you check out. And then I was like, wait, that just added like, $25 to my purchase price. And it's not that, like, I'm opposed to paying $25 more if it makes sense, but if I had known that up front, I may not have even entertained the idea of buying this item, because that really changed it.

[Dustin]

You feel deceived almost when you go through it.

[Amanda]

You do, you do. And so speaking of other platforms that tried this, and it was. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say this. This was a little deceitful. Was it in, like, October? Cause I have, like, no concept of time right now when Posh.

[Dustin]

I think, yeah, they did it, like, early in October.

[Amanda]

So in early October, Poshmark decided to do the same thing. And they really sprung it on people. I feel like they were like, starting in, like, 36 hours. This is gonna be how it's gonna go. And I mean, at first, once again, the way they pitched it was like, this is gonna be really great for sellers. We really care about sellers and supporting small businesses and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then people bless Reddit. The people of Reddit who will take the time, dig into the posted graphs.

[Dustin]

Bless em. Bless em for posting graphs. I feel like visually, it made everything be like, wait a fucking minute. Like, this isn't. This isn't what we thought it was.

[Amanda]

Yeah, and it was wild because ultimately, first off, spoiler alert, it turned out that this was gonna be far more lucrative to Poshmark, which was really why it was happening. Right. And specifically, specifically where it was going to be the most impactful in terms of profitability for Poshmark was purchases that were for items maybe between like 10 and $50, where it was going to be increasing both the amount of fees that they were going to get off of that, but also pretty egregiously increasing the final selling price of these items. And what really made me angry about the whole thing is that basically they would charge you a percentage as the buyer, a percentage of the purchase price. Okay, fine, sure. That would include tax and shipping. So after that was added on, then they'd say, okay, and now we're gonna take another 10% on top of that or whatever. And I went in and was, like, sort of playing around, like, putting different things in my cart. And I was shocked, actually. I was like, this is gonna turn off customers pretty significantly, like, immediately. And of course it did.

[Dustin]

It.

[Amanda]

People saw their sales fall pretty fast. But I will say, like, one thing that just going back to the idea of, like, the reseller community being so strong is that people put up a fuss. People sent emails, people closed their storefronts, people posted on social, people called. People did all kinds of things. And just a couple weeks after this was rolled out, it was rolled back.

[Dustin]

Yeah. I pulled up the blog posts here from Poshmark, and It says on October 2nd, they posted, you know, Starting tomorrow, October 3rd, we're updating the fee policy. Like, they really gave no notice, like a day's worth of notice before they changed it. They didn't even. I don't know. It always shocks me when companies make such irrational decisions like this. Like, clearly, you need to have a sounding board before you go through with something like this. Like, talk to the customers like, they know best. And I feel like if they had given more notice and gotten more pushback early on, they might have been able to avoid some of this stuff happening. And then second, on October 24, they announced the recall of that. So it took a matter of 20 days of them, like, you know, getting a lot of backlash from the reseller community for them to change their mind and say, sorry, sorry, we didn't mean it. Let's go back to the 20% fee. Like, we'll just keep it there.

[Amanda]

Yes. And like, you heard right, 20%. That is actually a lot of money. And I think that maybe buyers don't usually know that unless they've ever sold anything on Poshmark. So on items that are under $15, the seller pays 295, which is. That's still 20%, basically, if it's a fifth, if it's a $14 item. But, you know, if you sold something for $5 and you're getting charged 295 by Poshmark, which, believe me, people have sent me $5 offers on Poshmark. Okay, that means you get a whopping $5 out of that transaction or something. So, like. Yeah, exactly. So just like, something to think about there. But you know that 20% is something really significant that if you buy something from a seller for $50, let's say $10 of that is going to Poshmark, which right there leaves $40 for the seller. But if you on top of that are like, I want free shipping, take another $10 off of that, and suddenly that. That seller is getting $30. Right. But, like, let's say they paid 20.

[Dustin]

Bucks to buy it.

[Amanda]

Yeah, exactly. And this is where it becomes really challenging to make a living, because if you're left with $10 after all of that is said and done, and that has to cover all of your work, right? Gas to go, you know, sourcing and laundry detergent and everything else, the only way you can make that work is if you are selling, like, you know, a hundred. A couple hundred items every week. And who has time for that? I mean, this is like, hard work, right? We see that ThredUp and the RealReal have said, okay, we're going to turn this into a volume game where we're going to sell thousands of units every week by, you know, fulfilling these orders, by bringing in the product, all that stuff. And they can't actually make a profit off of that either. So how is an individual who's going.

[Valeria]

To be left with a very small.

[Amanda]

Portion of that sale, how are they supposed to make a living? And that's silence.

[Dustin]

Yeah, I give you silence because they simply cannot.

[Amanda]

I know, I know. And, like, I. I find I have sympathy for this, right? Because I feel like resellers are doing this really important work ultimately. Like, in many cases, to be really honest, Poshmark is making more profit off of a pretty standard sale on Poshmark than the seller is. And, I mean, I've had, like, similar, you know, like, when. When clients of mine are like, hey, the store offered, like, to let me sell my stuff here on consignment. They're going to keep 50% of the sales. I'm like, okay, well, like, let's just do that exercise.

[Dustin]

So if they're taking the legwork out of it, right?

[Amanda]

So, okay, they're gonna. This thing you have that you're gonna sell in the store, someone buys it for a hundred dollars, right? The store takes 50. They didn't do anything other than just like, give you the space. So you're left with $50. But that item cost you $25 to make, let's say. And that's actually. That's. The math is usually worse than that.

[Valeria]

But we'll just.

[Amanda]

We're giving. We're saying this is someone who's like really experienced at like making things profitable. I don't know. So at the end of the day, here we are, we have this item that sold for $100. The store who sold it on consignment gets $50. The person who made it is left with $25. And so here's the store literally making twice as much off of as the seller is, right? And with Poshmark, even though they're not taking 50%, they're taking that 20%. They're really forcing sellers to offer free shipping, to take low ball deals, all these things. What is left? Does that feel fair?

[Dustin]

It just doesn't. And the thing with consignment stores and Poshmark, if you really look at it like they're meant or they're not meant, but they are logically built for passive sellers. And what I mean by this is like people who aren't relying on this as their primary source of income. So people, you know, who bring in their spring cleaning haul and don't want to worry about the actual process of doing like any kind of legwork of selling it. And so like the 20% fee works if you're not thinking too hard about it, right? Like, you know, 10 items that you sell once, you know, just every year when you do your closet clean out or whatever it might be if you're doing this year in like day in, day out. Like, this is not sustainable and especially not with certain platforms, like consignment platforms or now online platforms, like Poshmark is just consignment but make it virtual, right? They hold the space for it. And then I love the mall, the mall analogy you did. I view it almost as like they have that building, they have all the shops. And then you as a customer think, okay, it's more legitimate because it's housed in this official building. They have, you know, the mall patrol that goes around, like the mall cops that make sure everything is in order. So you feel like it's a more secure purchase, like you're not going to get scammed or anything. And if you do, then the mall, you know, police will reimburse you or whatever. The analogy is getting a little out of hand.

[Amanda]

But like, and there's a food court, you know. Yeah, like, yeah.

[Dustin]

And there's a food. Of course, yeah. But beyond that, like if you are a small business, like truly trying to make a living off of this, like, it doesn't, it doesn't work. Like the math does not math, no matter how many different ways you try to crunch the number like if you are doing the volume that you need to be making, the sound that you like should be earning or need to earn to survive, like there are two, like two little hours in the day to accomplish those tasks. Like, as unfortunate and annoying as it is, like, we can automate so so many things in this day and age. But packaging and shipping, taking pictures, styling, writing copies now is like something that we're seeing that is able to be automated. But there are so many like manual tasks involved in the reselling process that just make it impossible to scale beyond a certain point. Like, at least with our platform we notice typically even with the solution we currently offer, which is why we're like looking at doing other things. Like the average seller taps out at like 67 items a month. I mean that's like, that's where that's.

[Amanda]

A lot of work right there. 67.

[Dustin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

And like if you are only making $10 off of each of those purchases, that's $670, that's nothing. And I think I get frustrated with this because, I mean, I get frustrated for a lot of reasons, but one is that, you know, there's still so much like anti reseller rhetoric on social media. I do feel like I'm seeing less of it lately because maybe people have other things to worry about or I'm just not seeing it anymore because like my algorithm knows I hate it. I don't know. But the, the belief anytime I talk about resale, whether it's on Instagram or threads or anywhere really, at least one person shows this, shows up to say, well, they're just like buying stuff from the thrift store and then price gouging us and blah. And like, you know, resellers, maybe they're not getting rich, but they're taking advantage of us. And I'm like, well, I don't even know if I want to engage with you. But you know, like, how do you think this works?

[Dustin]

You know, like, yeah, no, it's, it's almost rage bait in a way where you're like, just don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. But you really want to just like, you know, post a response saying, you know, like, I am putting in hours and hours and hours of work. Like, the value that I sell my product at is a fair value for the amount of effort that goes into it and also for the cost required to make this function. And so, you know, you have to defend yourself a lot against these kind of people. But at the same time, I feel like, and I agree with you, like, this rhetoric is being spoken less and less, or at least in my, like, virtual bubble that I am in on Instagram and on threads and on social media, I am seeing it happen less and less. But, like, there's no way of knowing for sure if it is actually going down or if I'm just seeing, seeing less. But I truly hope that people are starting to wrap their minds around, like, how like a secondhand purchasing works and also, like the ethics around it. Because I feel like there's so many myths and we've talked about those before as well.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, I know. There's so many myths. And, you know, as I said when we got started, like, the vast majority of people have ever never actually, like, done the work of being a reseller, but those who have even just like, been like, I'm gonna clean out my closet and sell it online. You start to see, like, how much work that is. Even so you get a view of it. But a friend of mine used to work in a thrift store and the management there was very like anti reseller and would be like, oh, if you see someone who's coming in who's a reseller and they seems like they're trying to scoop something up that's good and sell it at an outlandish price to someone else, like, tell them you can't ring it up or like pull off the price tag or. I know, I know. So I'm not saying that's all thrift stores. And, you know, maybe that manager was just a butthead, but like, that person who once worked in thrift store and was sort of being like, socialized to hate resellers and was starting to absorb some of that, then went and actually started reselling on Poshmark themselves and was like, this is so much work. And now I understand why people aren't just like buying stuff from the thrift store and then selling it at the same price as the thrift store. And I was like, yeah, exactly. Like, it is very labor intensive.

[Dustin]

Yeah. I took the liberty of like, looking up some data points to see if I could, you know, factually say, like, maybe the rhetoric is going down or awareness, I guess, is going up. And so thredup, despite, you know, not making much money, they do make really great resale reports every year. And so what I'm seeing here is that the. The US secondhand apparel market is expected to reach $73 billion by 2028. This means it's growing. In 2023 alone, it grew by 11%, which is seven times faster than the broader retail clothing market.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Dustin]

So basically, like, resale is up and coming. It's growing faster than regular retail is. And so maybe as a result, awareness is going up as well.

[Amanda]

I mean, I want to believe that because the vast majority of that resale labor is not happening at Thredup or the real, real. It is happening with individuals all over, all over the world who are doing this in their homes. You know, and I, I do think that, I think that a lot. You know, another great thing about the reseller community is it like supports one another, but it also speaks out about these things. And I know it's hard because no one should be getting like death threats or bullied because they're selling a pair of jeans. But like, I unfortunately have seen it happen. I think, I like to think that all of us talking about this is changing some minds. Where does this anti reseller rhetoric begin? And I'm sure you have some thoughts on that too. But I think the most important thing is that it starts as an opinion or an emotional response to something that was disappointing. And then people repeated enough that it starts to feel like it's a fact. Like you go thrifting one day and there's nothing there and you're like, oh, it's because of the resellers. And then people hear that and they repeated it so many times that it is, it just is because of the resellers. Nobody questions like, the factual nature of that statement. I mean, where do you think a lot of this anti reseller sentiment begins?

[Dustin]

I do, like, honestly think it's from exactly the same place as you just said. Like, people state opinions as facts. You know, it's so easy. And especially on social media, things can spread a lot, a lot faster than they would through word of mouth. Where if you leave one comment on a post or, you know, you tweet one thing and it goes viral or, you know, comment on a subreddit and people get a lot of up, put a lot of upvotes on that immediately with kind of the support of the masses. This statement that is often an opinion really looks like facts because thousands of people have liked it or upvoted it or retweeted it or whatever it might be. And so then you start thinking, okay, well if all these people believe it and all these people are like retweeting it, this means that it has to be true. And then you might actually even partake in that without even realizing what you're doing. And of Course, this is a phenomenon that expands beyond just reselling, but it can so easily be applied to this industry as well.

[Amanda]

Yeah, no, it applies to so many things. I was talking to my husband about this last night, actually, because something that's been on my mind a lot, and this is a heavier topic, but I actually used anti reseller sentiment as an illustration of this is where do we get information now, right? And where do we get reliable information? And what had started me thinking about that, a lot of stuff surrounding the election and things I was seeing repeated. And I've been mulling it for, like, months now, trying to, like, come to some sort of, like, peace with it. And then I just saw randomly on. I was scrolling through Facebook and someone had posted about this restaurant in town going out of business, but it was behind a paywall. The article, because it was from the local newspaper and someone said in the comments, like, all news should be free. And I said to my husband, I was like. I was like, well, on one hand, I agree with that sentiment to a certain extent, but if all news is free, then how do the people who make it, like the writers, the fact checkers, you know, all of these people, right? The proofreaders, the people working in the newspaper office, et cetera, how do they get paid for their work if news is free? And so, like, we kind of have to pay for something, right? And I was telling my husband, the problem with all of this is, like, there was a time where newspapers, for example, sold so many subscriptions that they could let news be free on their websites. It didn't matter. But they don't sell subscriptions anymore. And so, like, they have to put this stuff behind, behind, you know, paywall, but then it's not accessible to people. And then what happens is people start getting their news from TikTok or Instagram or Reddit, and it becomes really difficult to parse facts from opinions. And yeah, yeah, I see stuff like that being repeated all over the place. I think very clearly of this post I saw on Reddit. It was on fomois. It was about, I don't know, like Sabrina Carpenter or something, some pop singer. And someone was talking about, like, I can't support them because their manager, like, they said some bad things about the manager. And people were like, no way. Cause I've heard this guy is really awesome. Like, do you have a source for that? I want to read more about it. People should know about this. And the person was like, oh, you know what? I actually don't know where I read it. Maybe I saw it on TikTok or something. Maybe I never saw it, but I'm just gonna choose to believe that it's true. And I was like, this is like, right there, like, Solidify, like, what a great illustration of where we are. And, you know, people repeating bad stuff about resellers is just like that. Like, oh, I don't know where I got that information. I just saw it somewhere and I choose. I chose to believe it. Or maybe I didn't see it anywhere except inside my own head, but I'm accepting it as fact, you know?

[Dustin]

Yeah. And I think, I think it gets even a step more dangerous when you start looking at graphs and charts and just graphics where people are stating things that are facts. And so it seems like an infographic. And then it gets really, really tricky because when you do look at things, you have to figure out where they came from. And then you have to understand if that thing, where it came from has validity or not. And how do you do that? Where do you learn how to do that? Like, my background, I just finished up my master's in May in marketing research. And before that, I feel like I was so much more susceptible to basically fake data. And as a result of that, I had to really become very scrutinous in what I was looking at and where I was pulling things from when creating PowerPoint charts. Because people would then suddenly ask me, like, in class. And then I started applying it. I guess more in person or more in my day to day life is like, where'd you get that from? And I'd kind of like freeze up and I'd be like. And that, I don't know, it just really made me realize how easy it is to just spread misinformation. Like, it doesn't have to be intentional. Like you truly just could see something and think, oh, like, I'm helping everyone by sharing this and passing this information along. But if you don't think twice about, like, where that information came from, it turns into a. A lot trickier, I guess, of a situation.

[Amanda]

No, it really is. I mean, anytime I'm working on anything for Clothes Horse, I have to, like, I basically will not share any information or state anything until I have.

[D]

I feel that I am at a.

[Amanda]

Point where that is 100% true. Um, and that means a lot of stuff doesn't make it onto social media or the PO or a podcast episode. Because I'm like, I, this, this still doesn't feel like I don't know fact to me. Like 100%. And sometimes I'll be like recording an episode with someone and they'll say something and I go back to verify it and I like literally can't find it anywhere. And I cut that out because I think it's just too easy. Like I could go on Instagram today with a really slick looking pie chart that was like 70% of resellers are ripping off or stealing clothes from the poor, right? And here's a pie chart that says that. And people would share the shit out of that. Like and then suddenly the fact would be 70% of resellers are stealing clothes from poor people. And like that is in fact not true, but it would look true. And I think like that's where it gets really slippery. But I think understanding the facts about what's happening on the resale landscape can actually make one it easier to support resellers because you understand now where the prices are kind of coming from and what they mean and what your money does in this situation, right? Which is like very powerful to buy something from a reseller. Actually it has like immediate community impact, but it also can help you like sort of debunk these myths when people say them just casually to you.

[D]

Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep clothes horse going via their generous Patreon support.

[Amanda]

Spokes and Stitches is a size inclusive.

[D]

Pattern making and sewing studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Pattern maker Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of designing.

[Amanda]

And making their own clothes.

[D]

If you're looking to expand your design.

[Amanda]

Skills beyond following store bought patterns, check.

[D]

Out Ruby's flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a.

[Amanda]

Set of basic block patterns that capture.

[D]

Your unique shape and proportions. You can use these basic block or slipper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made.

[Amanda]

To your body's one of a kind contours.

[D]

No more full bust, flat seat or swayback adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits.

[Amanda]

Ruby also provides professional services such as pattern digitization, size charts, pattern making and.

[D]

Grading services for indie slow fashion brands.

[Amanda]

That want to prioritize inclusive sizing.

[D]

You can find Ruby on Instagram @spokenSandStitches.

[Amanda]

And get in touch with her for professional [e-mail].

[D]

Selena Sanders a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts sustainably crafted in Los Angeles. Each piece is designed to last in one closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover [e-mail] late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all holds. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram latetotheparty People Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help, guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us [e-mail] and find us on Instagram Ylanpage Life and Style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram Althats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram at Gentle Vibes Vintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern Market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online [e-mail] and find us on Instagram thumpprintdetroit Vagavan Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location, located in the Arts district of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram Vagabond Vintage DTLV and keep an eye out for their website.

[Amanda]

Coming fall of 2022. I wanted to talk a little bit more about the marketplace selling fees, because speaking of charts, you did paste a bar graph in our doc that shows the marketplace selling fees by platform. And I was telling you when I opened it, I saw that Poshmark has the highest fees and I was not surprised. Were you surprised when you saw that?

[Dustin]

I actually was to some degree. But then looking into what this chart means, it is a little bit deceptive. So I will like put a caveat to this chart. So it's 20% always, unless it's under $15 and it's the flat 295. But you know, the chart doesn't show that ebay, it's not 15% always. It sometimes changes depending on how much the item costs, like what the price point is and then also what category it falls into. Like instruments have a different percentage fee than say, clothing does. I think clothing on ebay has a much higher percentage fee, for example. And so you kind of have to be careful with this chart in particular because, like, once you start looking into it, it isn't this straightforward like line that each, each company has it very much switches up and the same thing goes for the ThredUp and RealReal because they do most of the legwork. Of course, the percentage fee that you get is much, much lower. But they're also specializing in selling luxury items. So if you're selling a $6,000 purse and you only make 20% purchase, that's still like several hundreds of dollars. And so you also have to put in the numerical values and see what kind of market are they catering to. And then it all switches up a lot more. And then there's also hidden fees involved in some of these. What you don't know or what it doesn't say here is I think, is it Thredup? Let me double check. It's either ThredUp or the RealReal. One of them charges you a fee if your item doesn't sell and you want it back.

[Amanda]

Oh, yeah. I think they both do that. I know for certain that Thredup does, and it's pretty significant, but I also am like, someone has to go find it and pack it up for you. That costs money.

[Dustin]

Yeah, yeah. So it's not a straightforward chart, unfortunately, but it does present kind of an interesting argument. And I feel like the chart that we do see is more meaningful in the context of it being for people who sell mainly apparel between, you know, the average, like, price ranges of, let's say anywhere from 10 to like 200 to $300. Like, that's. That's where this chart kind of works best or feels the most accurate is, like, for this price range and for that apparel, like, for that market.

[Amanda]

And it's also important to remember that, like, going back to this idea of, like, Poshmark, that The fee is 20% over $15, but under $15, it's $2.95. That sounds like no big deal, but when you're buying something for $5 or $10, it means that basically at the end of the day, that reseller made no money off of it. And then if you ask for free shipping on top of that, which all of these platforms, I mean, Etsy really pushes it. I know that they push products down in the algorithm if they don't offer free shipping, but, like, all of them really incentivize it. And I've never received an offer on Poshmark that didn't include free or discounted shipping.

[Dustin]

Poshmark itself, something I do find interesting is that they require shipping to be purchased on their platform. You are not allowed to. You're not allowed to shop around and see if you can find better discounted rates. They have a flat fee. If it's under a pound, it's xyz. If it's over a pound, it's abc, like, whatever the values are. And so if you offer free shipping, it's not like you can say, okay, I can go to so and so website and find discounted prices or, oh, I can use UPS instead of usps. Like, no, like, you are stuck with whatever Poshmark says you have to pay. And that also presents another issue where they're boxing you in. You not only are losing 20%, but you have to use what they give you and you're not allowed to go any other way.

[Amanda]

It feels, when you say it out loud like that, it just feels so unethical, you know, like, because anywhere else, any other small business owner could just, you know, Go use Pirate ship or something. And like when you as, as a buyer on Poshmark get discounted shipping, the seller did not. Right. Like they're still being charged the same price for the shipping. So really what you just got was an additional discount from the seller and I think that's really, really important to call out.

[Dustin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

So we know that this like landscape is pretty problematic and it needs to be fixed because I worry that, you know, like I said at the beginning, we need most people buying most of their stuff secondhand, like asap. But it's really easy to get burned out as a reseller. It's really easy to realize that you cannot make any money off of it and quit. And I worry that we're seeing that happen right now actually because people are just like, I've hit a wall. Right, how we need more people reselling, not less.

[Valeria]

So how do you think this could.

[Amanda]

Work better for everyone involved?

[Dustin]

Okay, I will quickly reference that Thredup resale report because I do really enjoy it and it is like a well done report with backable data to support it. And I want to point out first and foremost, peer to peer marketplaces like, like Poshmark and Depop and Mercari only comprise of like 13% of like the preference of consumers, which I guess put more elegantly is like if you are a consumer, 13% say that they want, that they prefer that kind of platform to like shop from.23% which is like literally 10 points more prefer social media versus another 20% preferring a managed marketplace, another 18% wanting a live stream shopping platform. Like it's not the end all be all and it's not even. It is like the, it is the lowest ranked option from consumer preferences of like where they want to shop from. So like you aren't locked in first of all to having to sell on a platform. There are other options for you and it's not necessarily going to mean less sales. Second, if you do want to like sell on a platform, I would advocate for these platforms to be a lot more transparent with their fees and their pricing. Like yes, they, they do make it clear like, you know, this is how it works, but it's not necessarily always a simple, straightforward process. And then also your ability to, to kind of see at the end of the day how much money you get or don't get becomes this like background thing that Poshmark like claims they want you to know, but they also try to like hide away from you as much as possible so you don't think about it. Too much, you know, and then the same thing goes for like buyer fees. They say it up front on their site and, and, and everything. But then you don't find out as a buyer until you're all the way through the checkout process that all these fees are there. And so I feel like if transparency was more real or more present, a lot of these issues would go away because everyone feels like they are agreeing and participating in something that they truly, truly know about.

[Amanda]

Yes, yes.

[Dustin]

So I, that feeling of deception goes away.

[Amanda]

I agree. Because I actually think for the first time ever, when Poshmark did the old switcheroo with the fees, for the first time ever, I feel like customers, like buyers were actually seeing without realizing it how untransparent the fee process really is. But this is what sellers deal with all the time. And I'll tell you, I work with clients who have, have at least at some point sold on Etsy or some of these other platforms. And it is true when we are trying to get a grasp of the money in, money out situation of their business, it is so difficult to get that information from these platforms. And I do not think that that is a coincidence.

[Dustin]

Pulling teeth sometimes or I don't know, it's. I hate that so much. They say everything with a smile and they claim transparency and if you Click through like 6 different sub blog like categories, you'll find the stuff. It's there. But it's not as transparent. I don't know. Transparent versus upfront, I think are two very separate things to bigger corporations like this.

[Amanda]

Yes, I agree.

[Dustin]

Or the information is available to you, but it might not be easily found.

[Amanda]

I mean, I think you just nailed it right there. To them that's transparent. And I guess technically it is, but it's not. I guess. Yeah, upfront is a great way to describe it because what would really make this beneficial is that when you signed up to sell, you received an email that was like very clear bullet points that illustrated how this was going to work rather than just agreeing to some terms and conditions.

[Dustin]

Yeah, yeah. And it's tough, but I guess that's the reality we live in. But then there are, you know, people out there that are wanting to change this and I feel like it's important that we talk about it.

[Amanda]

I think so too.

[Dustin]

Yeah, it can kind of start going that way. I want to say, like another thing that could possibly help in this industry is like supporting lower value items. Not every single piece you sell, like we mentioned with Poshmark, is going to be over $15. Sometimes your inventory doesn't all have that $15 or higher price point. Sometimes you need to clear out inventory and you do a sale and things cost 10 or $5. Platforms don't specialize in being friendly to lower value items. And I feel like it would make such a difference if platforms like Poshmark would provide incentives for sellers of items under $20. So, like maybe reducing the fees or doing a smaller percentage, like $2.95. Like, the best example I saw online is, like you said, the $5 example, which I think is great. But, like, if you lower that to even $3, a seller is making $0.05. Like that to me is so, so baffling. And so I feel like if lower C, like lower reduced fees were there and that there was a support system in place for that price range of items, it would encourage more transactions to happen there because maybe something just is redonated or thrown away because they can't sell it for that $15 price point.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so true. And you know, I agree that like, actually, I mean, I think that what works in Thredups favor in terms of like, the value proposition for its customers is that they do sell a lot of products that are in that under 15 bucket. In fact, I mean, not knowing any of their actual sales information, I suspect that that is the bulk of their sales because I see people talking about it on Reddit, I see when I scroll through their website that they are selling a lot of these at this lower price point. And we know that it's actually working for Thredup financially. So the reason it doesn't work for Thredup financially is because no matter what price they sell you stuff for, they still have to pay their employees. But right now, with the current setup on these other platforms, you could go buy something for $5 on Poshmark and the what really happens is that the person selling it gets paid nothing. Right. And that's the only reason currently you can buy things for $5 on Poshmark. And I just wonder, like, in an ideal world, what if Poshmark said things that sell for under $15 have zero selling fees? Like, what would could that be a win?

[Dustin]

Wonderful.

[Amanda]

I know. I mean, I, I like, I think that of course, I have been saying this for years, that Poshmark specifically, but really all of these other platforms, they are not in this business because they have a passion for getting secondhand clothing back into circulation. They're not obsessed with circularity or environmentalism or labor rights or anything. Like that they are there to make money. Right. And if these platforms were really about, you know, environmentalism and circularity, they would absolutely say, yes, things under $15 have no selling fees and it would incentivize people to buy and sell things at that price, while still, of course, buying and selling things at higher prices too. And there would still be just as much revenue coming in, but more clothes would be getting into circulation. Right.

[Dustin]

There's this like beautiful business theory that's the 8020 rule where 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers. And like it happens organically no matter what business you have. Even in ours, like, it just seems to prove itself true. Like it just always tends to like veer in that direction. And so as a result, like Poshmark, I am also willing to bet that 80% of the, the revenue is coming from this top 20% of Poshmark sellers who are doing really high quality, high volume, high price items and churning and generating a lot, a lot of revenue for the platform. Meanwhile, like these lower $15 ones, they found ways to profit off of them. But I'm willing to bet if you're selling a lot of things at $15, you probably aren't doing that high of a volume or you're unable to do as high of the volume or like vice versa, you're forced to do a super, super, super high volume. For scraps.

[Amanda]

For scraps.

[Dustin]

And like, oh, it just, oh, it breaks my heart to think about it, but yeah, I think like either you know, canceling or eliminating the fees for under $15 items or just reducing it. Like if you were to put that to like a 1 to 2 to maximum, like 4% fee. Those are center cents that you're taking off, not dollars.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

And that makes a big, big difference in a reseller's like basically like longevity and being able to run their business.

[Amanda]

Totally. And I often wonder because obviously like Poshmark, you know, Poshmark is no longer publicly traded. They went public and then about a year ago they were bought by a company in South Korea. So now they're private again. And so we don't get any transparency into how they make their money really. But question I would have for them is like, how much does it cost you, Poshmark, for one sale, the listing of that product and then the sale of it, like, what's the financial burden of that listing for you? It would seem to me that 5 cents.

[Dustin]

I could hypothesize a few of those things. Yeah. Like considering most of the costs involved are pushed onto the buyer.

[Amanda]

Exactly.

[Dustin]

Something ridiculous, ridiculously low, like 5% payment processing. They don't worry about shipping, they don't worry about listing. The item itself, like does not require any manual work. The main thing we're talking about here in terms of costs is marketing to get new users and to get new customers to the platform. It's website hosting costs. So the cost of, you know, like posting this website at a data center and to be able to like function properly with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of people on the platform at the same time, which once you get to that scale it does become like cents per user. And then, yeah, I guess just like people to do customer service. Like most of the cost here is either in hiring people or hosting the site. Like the actual transaction itself does not cost them much. And that's why it's so profitable to be a platform like Poshmark because everyone else is doing the legwork and then you just get to take money.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, imagine you own the mall, you build them all and then you never ever do anything else to the mall ever. You know, like, you don't hire, there's no mall cops, you don't have a fountain, you don't pay the electricity. Well, maybe you pay the electricity to keep the lights on at the mall. Fine. But like, you don't really like send, you know, you don't have like a cleaning crew in there. You're never like repaving the parking lot or anything like that. You're just like, here's the place where you show up. That's kind of where we are with Poshmark right now. Like there is a little bit of marketing there. Like they obviously Pay for Google AdWords and whatnot, but I would still say like the sheer volume of lower price point stuff that they could be selling and actually incentivizing people to list and sell if they took away the fees or made them much smaller, would actually probably drive their top line profitability higher is my guess. Because I see. One thing I've noticed because I like to creep around on the Internet constantly and follow subreddits and Facebook groups that I never actually post in on the thread up subreddit people don't just go there and buy one thing for $7. They buy 10 or 20. They are, for better or worse, buying hauls. And I think you would see more of that on Poshmark as well. So it becomes sort of like a volume game. If, if a customer shows up and buys 10 different things on Poshmark maybe from 10 different sellers and you're only getting like 2% of the fees off of that. You're still getting a chunk of change.

[Dustin]

And that's why I think like reselling platforms or non reselling platforms that are being used as reselling platforms are, are so, so interesting and so amazing in their own right. Like, I started selling on Instagram and like, the business I run now supports sellers for Instagram and Facebook Marketplace. And like, we're working on expanding the other platforms. But the reason we started with those two is it's because A, it's what I knew best and it's where I knew there were pain points. And then B, I thought it was just beautiful in the fact that like, they don't lose, not anything, but they lose so, so, so much less. Like, they get to keep 100% of the profit. A lot of the times these sellers, like, they sacrifice the automated experience of Poshmark in order to keep what they make. And so people will then pay them through Venmo or PayPal or Cash App. They'll send all the order information through DMs on Instagram or through messenger on Facebook and they keep track of everything manually. And I think it's a shame that there isn't any active businesses supporting this kind of industry that has created itself. I don't know. The fact that this market exists and that it's massive on Instagram and Facebook, to me is a clear indication of the symptoms of bigger businesses like Poshmark, ThredUp, Mercari and Depop existing. If it really was as good as it sounded, these people would be selling through there, or mainly selling through there.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you have seen that specifically, Poshmark is the only platform that I know that really does this. But this idea, it was very like MLM kind of girl boss language. I mean, I don't think they do it as much now, but you know how it was like they had the. They still have the ambassadors and periodically Poshmark has reached out to me to be like, you know, get some of their ambassadors on the podcast and like they're. They have this like, street team basically out there being like, I get to live the dream of staying at home with my kids and being a successful girl boss because I sell on Poshmark and I see a lot less of that now, but it's still there. And I just am like, wow, Poshmark, rather than spending your money on that, why don't you be just like authentic and Genuine and just, like, make the selling fees work for people and make it easier to list items and on and on and on. Right. Like, that's what really would help people. Not like, hey, look, we're having an event where you can show up and be a girl boss with us or whatever. Okay, well, yeah. What else do you think could make. Make this better?

[Dustin]

I think just improved seller tools, like platforms like Poshmark. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they have an analytics feature, do they?

[Amanda]

I haven't sold on Poshmark in a really long time, but I do not think so. I think you can, like, go in and you see, like, what you've sold basically, and, like, that's about it.

[Dustin]

But it doesn't give you anything about your sales, your revenue, your dash. It doesn't give you a dashboard to kind of keep track about. Oh, what's doing well, what months were good for me, Am I growing all of that stuff you have to keep track of manually? Which also just. Oh, it infuriates me, Amanda, to think about, these are all the things that my. My whole life revolves around is like, I want to do these things. I am, like, doing these things because it frustrates me so much that big, big businesses that have billions of dollars, like, legitimately, like Poshmark sold for, I think $1.3 billion, aren't doing this. They are, like, knowingly withholding data that can help a small business understand their business better and grow, and they're just actively choosing not to do that. If they are, then my apologies. That's amazing. But I don't know, just doing a quick Google search, it does not seem like that is the case. And there's actually tools that.

[Amanda]

Yeah, even Etsy, like, Etsy has a little bit of reports you can pull, but, like, some of them are sort of hidden. And I had to actually go into Reddit and, like, do a bunch of searching around to figure out where I could find them. And even people on that Reddit thread were like, wow, wouldn't it be interesting if, like, Etsy made these easy to find? Right. Because, you know, we're just trying to run a small business here. And it was something as simple as, like, what products you sold last month, like, what were your best sellers to your worst sellers, you know, and, like.

[Dustin]

That should be front and center.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. Like, what brands worked best for you, what sizes, what colors? Because this is the thing, like, if you run a report and you could see like, oh, my top selling brand last month was Free people, I don't know. Then go source more free people, you know, or I sold mostly a lot of stuff in size 14, then you're gonna go look for size 14s and stop buying size twos. Right? And I think this kind of stuff actually, not only would it help resellers use their money more smartly when it comes to sourcing, and use their energy and time also more smartly, it would help drive more sales for these platforms, which ultimately is how they make their money, by taking a cut of that. So it's not a favor to give that kind of information to sellers. It actually helps them grow and grow the platform.

[Dustin]

Well, I'm curious if, like, Poshmark were, quote, unquote, transparent about some of these metrics, like, how the public might react. Like, if you were to realize, oh, I sold, like, 60 items, this might be something that you could keep track of relatively easily by yourself or just by looking at Poshmark. That is so exciting. But if Poshmark were to have a business analytics feature where you realize, I sold 60 items for, like, 10 bucks a piece, and I only got $8 of profit off of each of these things, I've only made $80.

[Amanda]

You know, that's what's at the core there, though, right? Because I, like, I have a spreadsheet that I always give people to, like, track this stuff in because I know that none of these platforms give good information. And of. Of course, it is, like, very manual. Like, you have to put in the product and how much it costs you and how much it's sold for and how much the fees were. And, you know, like, as you start to see that, you can use that information to make different decisions. Right? And it is one of those things, like, where you start to see it all happening, and then you total up how much money you really made after the cost of the product and the fees and anything else that came with it, and you're like, oh, shit, I don't know if I can keep doing this business, you know, And I think that it would discourage people. And maybe, I don't know, like, when I look at these platforms, I think the conceit is that you're coming on there to just buy stuff from people who cleaned out their closets. But the reality is that there would never be enough inventory to go around to drive the sales that these platforms need to, you know, pay investors and shareholders. So they need to be bringing in more and more sales. And how they really do that is with people who are trying to make a go at being a reseller, like, professionally. And I just. I feel like it never gets better if they aren't one, making it more equitable financially, but also giving the sellers the tools to grow their businesses strategically. And if they do it in the opposite order, like, they give them the tools but haven't yet figured out how to make it more equitable financially, everyone's gonna quit.

[Dustin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amanda]

So they're kind of like, we just won't do either. And instead we'll just, like, keep telling you, like, we're having these weird Poshmark parties or whatever.

[Dustin]

Yeah, let's. Let's keep them in the dark and then just have them kind of have a crap shoot. But, you know, crapshoot's better than nothing. And so we're making a pretty hefty penny. As long as we, like, take 20% or like 2 point. What, $2.95, then, yeah, like, let's. We're content. Yeah, very content with where they're at, I think.

[Amanda]

And like, once again, the average customer on these platforms, I bet they. They know in their heart of hearts that, yes, the sellers are paying some of that money to the platform to be there. Right. And maybe if they think about it a little harder, they also know that when they ask for free shipping, the seller is actually paying for it. I mean, I don't know. I don't know about that one. I think people really think that somehow shipping can be free and it just cannot be. Someone's got to get paid for it. But I think even the customers who understand these things probably do not understand how high these fees are and how little money the sellers are left with at the end of the day. Yeah, I think it's, like, really important to have these kinds of conversations. And honestly, I love when a reseller shows a screenshot of the math. I think that's really important.

[Dustin]

I think it's powerful.

[Amanda]

It is very powerful. And the more we can show people in black and white real information that illustrates the reality of a situation, the more we can get customers and, you know, and resellers alike on the same page supporting one another. Because, like I said, we have to reach this critical mass where most people buy most of their clothes secondhand. We're all on the same mission, and we just need to, like, understand how we can collaborate together to make it better. Which, honestly, like, I think once again, what happened with Poshmark, to me, it renewed this level of hope in me that I hadn't had in quite a while, where when people actually work together on something, change happens and you might be like, oh, whatever, it was just Poshmark and it's fees. But we're talking about a massive company, right? That three weeks, after three weeks of people showing up and telling them how they felt and withholding their money and not letting up, not giving up, they were forced to change.

[Dustin]

Yeah. Literally a billion dollar company.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean that's, and that's incredible. And when I see stuff like that, I'm like, yeah, if everybody actually collaborated and showed up, we could probably do something about Amazon, you know, or Shein or all these other things that stand in our way. But we rarely see this kind of collaboration and we need more of that.

[D]

If you're enjoying this episode, then this, this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothes Horse is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank Cass or Blanket Coats by CAS is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram at Blankcas and a website will be Launched [e-mail] Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram, Opvel, VelvetUnderground or online at www. Saint Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every Thursday at Ware Saints with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram Wearst Evens. That's where Saint Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them. Find us on Instagram Country Feedback Vintage and vinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed.

[Valeria]

Made with love and some swearing in.

[D]

Fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow Fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaUnicornia_yarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com picnic wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity. Future Vintage over Future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points.

[Amanda]

If it's ethical and legal, we try.

[D]

To find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram. Utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures. Available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more [e-mail] Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric Made of plastic. Can this garment be upcycled? And if not, can it be recycled? Sign [e-mail] to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's deco denim instagram.com.

[Amanda]

So you recommend that people sell on Instagram, right?

[Dustin]

A hundred percent. Tell us why there are so many benefits and then there are some. Well, honestly, there's not that many drawbacks. I'll kind of walk you through why.

[Amanda]

Yeah, tell us.

[Dustin]

Instagram itself. Okay. It is a social media platform first and foremost. That much I know that everyone knows to be true. But there exists this beautiful community that is so much larger than people think of resellers that run their business entirely through Instagram. And what I mean by this is they aren't using the shop feature. They are actually just posting pictures of the item they want to sell. And then you as a customer can comment or swipe up on their stories or leave a message like, to indicate that you want to purchase. And the beautiful thing with supporting resellers on Instagram is that, you know that they are getting to keep 100% of the profit. They are not giving a portion to a big, big conglomerate corporation. They are like making what they're making. And I recommend it because of that exact reason that there is no. Granted, there's no mall that you have to pay rent to, the mall is there? But it's actually like, I don't even know it's an arcade, but there's. There's a secret corner in the arcade where you can sell clothing. Like, I don't know how else to explain it. And there's the cons, I guess, to this, which people, I think it's so amazing to see, like, how they overcome some of these cons is that because it's not like an official selling site, there is no way to kind of offer buyer, seller protection. And so you see these small businesses come up with solutions for that, such as having a like, proof highlight, which is a highlight on an Instagram profile where you can click on it and it just shows pictures that customers have tagged them in to show. Hey, like I ordered something from them. It actually got delivered right? Then being able to use like, payment processing platforms like Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, they can use personal ones or they can then use business versions of this. And then as a result, customers have confidence in the fact that they can get that money back from Venmo if it was a faulty or fraudulent account. And so people are actively making this platform that isn't meant for reselling into a reselling platform, which I think is just so cool. And I'm so obsessed with it, and I'm so, like, excited and happy to be a part of it and to have been a part of it in the past. And as a result of all these things, I recommend that you sell and support small businesses on Instagram because they are trying to make ends meet and frankly, like, Poshmark isn't working out for them, and so they've decided to explore something here.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's true. I, you know, when people first started selling on Instagram, you know, like four or five years ago, I felt kind of weird about it. Like, it felt risky, and so it felt safer to shop on these platforms, you know, and maybe pay more. But, yeah, just as you called out, like, there are all these protections in place for you as a customer if you buy from someone on Instagram now.

[Dustin]

Yeah. And they are making these protections themselves. Like, you see small businesses finding unique ways to make it happen. And I think the one other thing that all these reselling platforms have or don't have that Instagram's resellers do is that touch of just personalization. Because you're dming with the small business. You are, like, interacting with them. You are following their account, where they post on their story about updates of hey, I'm going thrifting today. Here's a poll. Swipe up. Is there anything that you are on the hunt for that I could possibly source from you? And you have this direct relationship with the business that you are actively supporting. And as a result, what I've seen is that a lot of these small businesses have a really loyal customer base, and a lot of their customers usually anywhere between 60 to 80%. And I know that's a big range, but that's kind of what we're seeing. Tends to be purchases made by repeat customers. So once you have a customer, you almost have them for life. They come to love not only your business and the aesthetic that you sell, but then they also come to love you as a person. And they get to see your face in those Instagram stories, your face in those live sales, and they get to have comments with you. My favorite thing sometimes is going on live sales on Instagram and just, I don't know, I look like some kind of weird stalker, but I'm just watching the comment section and like commenters are like, oh my God, like Rachel, how are you doing? Like, I heard that like your baby like had his first tooth fall out. Like just random little niche details. And I'm like, no Poshmark seller would ever have a relationship like this with their customer. And then the person on the live is like, oh hahaha. Like thank you so much by the way. Like your package just got shipped out. I'm sure you were sent, you know, the tracking information and blah, blah, blah. Like it just becomes so much more personal. Personal.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

And like this is like a data driven thing that. Well, simply put, like where let me find this data point right here. This is I believe from a TechCrunch article where it states that 75% of consumers prefer to engage with brands using private messaging channels versus traditional channels. They're is that desire in an increasingly, you know, distant and like Internet and like social media driven world that people want to feel like they know who they're doing business with. Because you know, flashback 60 years ago, you wouldn't order something online, you'd walk down the street to the local mom and pop shop where you know the owner because he's a part of your community and you personally from them and you develop that sense of loyalty to them because you know who you're purchasing from. And that is, you know, you still see that want here. It's not going away, it's just getting harder to find. And that's why I think like Instagram reselling is such a beautiful place where they found a way to kind of become the crossroads of reselling social media, customer service all just in one glorious little blob, I guess.

[Amanda]

No, I mean, and you're so right here because the, the big platforms, the reselling platforms, it's like the humans element of it is sort of erased from it. Like it's anonymized. Right? It. You can follow people's closets or whatever. Follow.

[Dustin]

But I wonder how often people really do look through someone's Poshmark closet or Poshmark seller versus just googling or like searching what they want in the search bar.

[Amanda]

Exactly, exactly. And then what, what makes it even weirder? Like specifically, I mean on Depop you can message people. Mercuri. I think you can too. Ebay you can. But like on ebay, to send someone a message, you still have to like jump through some messaging hoops. It feels very unnatural. On Poshmark, you literally cannot message the person, you know, can only comment on the item. And I feel that that just completely Removes, like, the trust and humanity on the situation. In fact, when Poshmark was raising the fees and making them buy on the buyer side and not on the seller side, they were like, oh, it's because you get this extra layer of, like, Poshmark protection. And I was like, you know, it makes sense to me that they would say that because they don't do anything to connect people and build that peer to peer trust. Right.

[Dustin]

And that's not the way to do it. You don't charge more to, like, build a pseudo connection with.

[Amanda]

Right. You're saying, like, you actually just.

[Dustin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

You're like, actually, most people on here are scammers and that's why we're gonna charge you more. That's like low key, what they were perhaps unintentionally saying. But I do think you're right. Like, people want that connection. We need that connection. You know, I tell people all the time to shop small because of the immediate human impact of doing that. And these big platforms, it actually doesn't work in their favor. Like, if any of them were listening to this, I would tell you, like, bring the people element back to it. Bring the social element to it. People want to know each other and they want to feel good about what they're buying. They want to feel like they're part of something. And these platforms actually don't have, like, a brand identity at all for people to buy into, much less this, like, human connection element. So, like, really, what's the point? Even Etsy, like, Etsy started in that way where it was all about, like, you know, bringing people to, like, makers and, like, under, like, building this connection with these makers and understanding why it was important to buy from individuals. And then over time, it just turned into, like, Amazon, where some of the stuff is handmade.

[Dustin]

Mm. And some of it just isn't right. You just see, I think it's Pinterest that pisses me off a lot. And then Etsy, sometimes I will see the exact same photo like, six times from six different sellers. And I'm just like, this isn't crafty. This is like someone just capitalizing on the fact that it looks crafty. And then as a result, they are pushing down all the actual people who are making something that you were looking for way, way down in the search history or the scroll history. And that. Yeah. Oh, it depresses me and it enrages me at the same time.

[Amanda]

I definitely have got pretty heated thinking about these platforms.

[Dustin]

Facebook Marketplace is this, like, interesting community where it's a Mix. Yeah, it's a mix of like local sales of just like people trying to get rid of stuff that they like. You know, doing a closet.

[Amanda]

Which I love. Yeah, yeah.

[Dustin]

Which I do love. And I use it like literally I'm sitting in my office slash my bedroom right now and. And 95% of the furniture in this room I got off of Facebook Marketplace. The other 5% I thrifted. So like, like has its benefits, it has its pros. But then when it comes to being a like active seller, I will say, at least from a consumer standpoint, it sometimes gets a bit trickier if you are like a full time seller on Facebook Marketplace because a little less trust comes with it.

[Amanda]

I think so too, because people expect.

[Dustin]

You to be on Facebook Marketplace to sell these one off things. The kind of context in which they expect you to exist isn't quite the right fit. Not to say like it doesn't happen. I do have many customers that like sell on Instagram and then also sell on Facebook and it works, but it is a little harder. And then I feel like things get a bit more disjointed. It is at least I can say for myself personally. It's rare that I click on someone Facebook account to see what else they're selling on Facebook Marketplace.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

Because I once again like expect it to be like, you are just selling this like nightstand. I'm sure like nothing else is being sold right now.

[Amanda]

You know, I sometimes do it, but less from a, like, oh, I want to buy something else from this person perspective, but more like I want to see the person who listed this thing.

[Dustin]

That's also true. That's. And that's like a very different thing and a very different like reasoning behind that decision to click on the profile.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Because you see selling stuff, you know, you see some weird stuff on there and I'm like, huh, that's interesting. Yeah.

[Dustin]

Like, what, what brought this here? I think that my favorite thing I saw on Facebook Marketplace was this listing of like a pile of clothes. And it was like men's clothes and it was from a woman's account. And I feel like this story must have happened so many times because I was listening to a podcast a few weeks later and they told this exact same story. And I was like, no way. Like, do you think it was the same thing? But basically the woman had all of her like ex boyfriend's clothing now and said, hey, you guys have till 6pm today. Come and grab whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, this does not belong in my house anymore. And I'm like, who are you? What happened? And then I, like, scrolled through her account and I was like, like, here's the boyfriend. And you just start, like, eyeballing.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

You go down the rabbit hole and you start trying to figure out, like, ooh, what's, like, what's the tea here? What's the gossip? Once again, like, none of that is driven by, like, the want to, like, support a small business. Facebook marketplace doesn't have that, like, aura around it. I don't know how else to say. You just think, like, people are here to sell one off things or, like, it's a fun way to, like, get really juicy tea or, like, have fun. It's like virtual people watching, you know? And Facebook. Yeah. Instagram then as a result has this very, very different perception where it's like, oh, it's an account that you follow. It's a profile that you look at. It's business that you support.

[Amanda]

Right. I mean, back in, like, the early days of people selling vintage on ebay, like, I'm talking, like 2005, 2008 kind of era, you would start to see, like, people getting followings like that on ebay, where, like, you would follow that person's shop and you would get an email every time they launch stuff, and you would become, like, really brand loyal. And a lot of those people were able to transition that into social media when, like, those platforms developed. But really nothing compares to Instagram for, like, just like, that, like, human element.

[Valeria]

Of, like, here's who I buy from.

[Amanda]

And getting to know them. So the thing is, you know, and I'm sure you see, I don't know, for some reason, Threads really likes to show me posts from people who are really struggling as small businesses, particularly on Instagram. Like, they think that's what I want to read. But the reality is, like, it can be really easy to feel bad because you're not getting engagement or you feel like people aren't seeing your stuff, that you're lost in the algorithm. What advice do you give to people who are struggling in that realm?

[Dustin]

I say keep up with the trends because I agree. One con of selling on Instagram is they consistently change up the algorithm and what they want to focus on. And you can go from amazing engagement to suddenly nothing crickets. And it feels like somehow it's your fault, but my word is, it is not. Trust me, you are not the only person going through this. And there are tons and tons and tons of posts, resources, and like, blogs that you can read that kind of Detail what some of these changes have been in the algorithm and also how you as a business can position yourself to kind of come back up again in terms of engagement. So, like, my main advice is, like, stay tapped in to the. To the community. If you're a reseller on Instagram, like, there are. I couldn't tell you how many different kinds of group chats that exist, whether they are, like, meant solely for the purpose of, like, small business or reseller support group chats, or the ones that just happen, incidentally. Like, I was part of this. This giveaway, and we were in a group chat, and then that group chat just after a while, transformed into, oh, my God. Are you guys experiencing difficulty with this? Or, oh, like, what do you do when a customer, you know, asks this? Or, like, how do you guys typically respond? And it just then turns into this, like, community? Or, like, this. Yeah, this little, like, community that you can. That you can tap into. And so my advice is, like, tap into the community, Find your tribe, find your people, and if not, like, ask around. Like, it might even be worth posting on your story. Hey, does anybody know a reseller group chat I could join? I'm looking to, like, you know, get more involved with people in the same industry as me, and chances are extremely high that someone will swipe up and be like, oh, I'm part of one, or, oh, like, I've heard of this one. And that's a really good way to kind of of feel less alone, I guess, in that space.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's great advice, because even I, as a person who works from home, there's sometimes where I'm like, this is a very isolating way of life. And so I totally get, like, more than ever, the importance of your community. Whether it's IRL or virtual. This is the kind of thing that makes everything go so much better for you. Mm, sure. So let's talk about shipping a little bit, because that's, like, obviously what you do with thrift ship. I feel. I don't feel.

[D]

I know.

[Amanda]

I see this because my day job is working with brands and, like, helping them build their businesses. Like, you know, like, via product, via inventory, and via, like, merchandising and marketing. And I will tell you, after working in this realm my entire adult life, people want free shipping so badly. Like, shipping is like this thing, which, once again, like, we're gonna say it. There's no such thing as free shipping. I say it all the time.

[Dustin]

There really isn't.

[Amanda]

There isn't.

[Dustin]

But it's Just it's this thing, like customers, like, if you and I can't even pretend to like, be innocent of.

[Amanda]

This or not be, we've all found ourselves. I myself, we've all been there.

[Dustin]

There's no shame in the fact. It's just like sometimes it helps a lot if you take a step back and you think through the process, I guess, like through the steps of, okay, is there such a thing as free shipping? No. Like, as simple as that sounds like if you just ask yourself that sometimes before asking a small business for it, then it helps you sound it out.

[Amanda]

That pressure is really real. And like you said, we've all been guilty of it in one way or another because, like, it's just in the air. We can't help it. We want free shipping.

[Dustin]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

How do you advise sellers to deal with that? Because I'll tell you, I deal with it even selling like iron on transfers where people are like, oh, the shipping is too expensive. And I'm like, well, if I give you free shipping, you can do literally. I mean, I've had people be like, can you get me a better price? And I'm like, this is from like pirate ship, dude. I can't.

[Dustin]

That is it.

[Amanda]

Right? So what, what do you recommend? Because this is frustrating, right? Like for resellers too. Like, especially if you're selling lower cost items, giving someone free shipping is the difference between you losing money on a transaction and you making a little bit of money. How do you recommend sellers deal with this?

[Dustin]

I actually like released a blog post on this recently because it is like such a frequently asked question and it also is such a frequently experienced problem. And my response to it is there's like three main approaches that I've seen and that I've also like, thought through. There is the first one, which is, yes, you can offer free shipping asterisks. Like, I really, really emphasize the asterisks there. If you do offer free shipping, my advice is to a make it transparent that free does not mean free. It just means that I'm at a place where the margin I am making on this sale of this item allows me to cover the cost of shipping for you. I think it's so important to emphasize that because if you apply free shipping to one item and you don't put this asterisk there, then people start expecting it of other items as well. And also people start expecting that of other small businesses. Like the amount of people I've talked to that have complained about like, oh my God, there's all these Bigger and more successful businesses and they all offer free shipping. And now I have to too. But I'm selling things for like 10 bucks and shipping is like 8 bucks. Like it doesn't work for me. It makes me like so disheartened to hear it. Where I feel like that communication and that, like we've said it so many times today, like, transparency is so important. So if you want to offer free shipping, like for yourself, for the benefit of yourself and your business and the benefit of other businesses, make sure that you're transparent or that you are clear about what free means. Free means I can cover it and still make a decent margin. Then the second option is exact charges, which I found is the most time consuming for small businesses, but also leads to like the happiest interactions with customers where they will do a separate invoice and a separate charge after small, after a customer has like completed all their purchases. Because the really nice thing about shopping on Instagram is once again, you have that relationship with people. And you can do what's called an open bag. So someone can buy an item from you and then you can opt in to have an open bag, meaning you don't have to pay for shipping yet. You can wait until the other drops that they have planned throughout the next week or week and a half are finished. And you can see if there's any other items that you want to have that they can be put into the same mailer so that you save on the shipping cost. And so by the end of the open bag period, whether you added something in or not, like you get an accurate shipping rate based off of the weight of your package, because that's how shipping is typically calculated is like the weight and the distance a package is going from its origin point. And so if you do exact charges, you get like a really nice feel of like trust and earnesty and just like happiness from your customers. But I put the caveat there that, that it takes a lot of extra effort. It means that you are going through and like manually, like sending all of these messages to customers. And then the like third way that you can kind of approach shipping is the flat rate system, which is very easy. There's typical rules that I see. It's like, oh, for one item, it's, I do eight dollar flat shipping no matter what. If you have two or more items, then you know the shipping rate increase by $2. And that can vary from like anywhere from like 5 to $8 is really what I've seen where people just come up with a Flat rate, because it tends to, you know, shipping costs tend to fall around that dollar amount, and then they either eat the. The cost. So if it costs a little, like a few cents more than they expected, they just eat it. Or they profit, which I say profit with, like, quotation marks. The few cents that they, you know, end up saving if an order is, you know, $7 and 90 cents to ship versus $8. And so those are, like, the three main ways I say shipping can be done. There is no right way. There is just the way that fits best for your business. It really, really is important that you figure out, like, what works for you and then you stick to your guns. I think once you find that solution, it's so hard to, like, stick to it, because it is really easy to compare yourself to other small businesses and you think that yourself, like, oh, well, they're doing this and, oh, well, they're offering free shipping, or, oh, they do exact charges. And people seem to like that. Nor. But, like, not every single business is the same. Like, that person might have, like, two extra hours at the end of the day where they can, like, go through and do the exact charges or maybe, you know, like, just the way that their business works, like, that's something that's more feasible for them. But if flat rate works for you, like, stick to it and the right customers will come, like, that's. Yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say about shipping is that there's no right answer. If you're doing free shipping, be clear about what free means. And then once you have your way, like, stick to it and feel confident in it because it is the right way for you and that's what matters at the end of the day.

[Amanda]

I think that's great advice because this is such a sticky topic constantly. And I saw a whole thing going around on Threads last week where this person was like, you had me until you want me to pay $12 shipping on an $8 thing, you should have just charged me $20 and I would have bought it. And people were like, what?

[Dustin]

Yeah, a lot of psychology behind it.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So what other, like, obstacles do you feel that resellers face, Especially those who are selling on Instagram, but just in general and, like, what is your advice.

[Dustin]

For them with obstacles? I think, you know, there's of course, the general, like, customer, like, rudeness and poor experience experiences. Like, everyone has been there, seen that there is people backing out of purchases, people wanting returns, people, you know, blocking you. People, like, there's so, so many Things that can go wrong with, like, customer interactions. And my advice is that you are not the first person to have experienced it.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

There is a community for you. And I'll say it until I'm dead, like, there's a community for you to complain about. About this with, because they will hear, like, you know, sometimes, like, when you're complaining or venting to someone, there's, like, two different kinds of venting. Where there's, I want advice venting, and then there's like, I just need you to listen and, like, not along venting. Like, that community is there for both of those things. If you're just having a shitty day and you want to post about a customer that, like, called you, like, a fat, ugly bitch, which, by the way, happened to me once.

[Amanda]

It happened. Happened to me too, actually.

[Dustin]

Which is like, why?

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. No, I, like, people are brutal.

[Dustin]

People are so brutal. Yeah. If you want to vents about that, like, boom. Like, boom. You can put that in the group chat. Everyone will be like, what the. Like, f. Like, why are they doing that? Like, no way. And you get that feeling of like, yeah, like, I'm not alone in this. Like, people are right there with me. And then they start sharing their stories. But then if you had a question about, like, oh, like, what do you guys do when it comes to return policies? You're gonna get so much great input.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

So there are so many, like, small challenges that come with running a business. Running a business, specifically on social media. That community is, like, the thing I'll say over and over again, like, that helps in so many different ways. In so many different ways.

[Amanda]

Like, truly, I think that that is such good advice. Like, community will always help you overcome this stuff because you are not alone. Someone has been mean on the Internet to all of us, you know, and there is, like. I mean, even right now, you know, like, this is, like, a different topic, but more and more people are talking about how crappy clothes are right now. Right. And I think that what I love seeing happen is one person is like, hey, why are all sweaters, like, plastic and itchy right now? And then 20 other people are like, oh, my God, you're right. Yeah. And they're like, wait a minute. And then this conversation starts where you just. You get to hear someone else say what you're experiencing, and it actually validates the experience for you.

[Dustin]

It really does. I had, actually one of my customers recently. One of her reels went viral. Jess's vintage finds, I think is her. Is her username, but it was about that exact thing where she's like, at the thrift stores, like, like me getting excited, thinking I found like a vintage piece. And then she moves the sweater to the side and looks at like the tag and it's 100% polyester.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[Dustin]

And that went like so viral. Cause everyone was like, oh, like that feeling of just pure disappointment was so, so, like just on the nose.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

And it's. Yeah. Just finds vintage.

[Amanda]

I've totally seen that. Multiple people sent me that one. Yes. Yeah, that was a good one. But yeah, I mean, like, I think that just like talking about this with other people, finding your people online. And like, I'm gonna tell you, I in the beginning was like, is it so weird that I have so many friends online that I've never met in real life who I feel really close to? No, it's actually like amazing that, like, it really is. Social media has plenty of drawbacks, but one of them big wins from it that makes me, like, not want to give it up is I get to get to know all these people that I would have never met irl. And we actually be there for each other and make each other laugh and make each other feel cared for and be there to like, give advice and care for one another. And I just, I think that that is incredible. Okay, well, let's talk about. We're going to wrap things up here. Let's talk a little bit about your business, Thrift Ship, because obviously you have very passionate feelings about free shipping. And shipping is the thing about, you know, selling online that is kind of one of the hardest problems to solve unless you're super rich. It's like really complicated and time consuming. Why did you start Thrift Ship?

[Dustin]

I started Thrift Ship because I was selling on Instagram and shipping was this big pain in the ass that I experienced. And then I talked to people in my community and. And lo and behold, they were also experiencing where if you're a reseller on Instagram, every single item that you sell is through a DM. And so that means if you're selling 30 or 40 items before you ship out, that means you're looking through 30 to 40 different DMs and copying over that address for shipping into a site like, for example, Pirate Ship. And that was so, so time consuming, not to mention so error prone and expensive. Not in terms of like physical cost, but like time cost. The amount of time I was spending just like, was making me miss out on like, thrifting more and sourcing more inventory and being able to post More and like keep my engagement up. Like it was precious time that I was losing that I could have dedicated towards growing my business. And so thriftship was born out of that. And what we do is we automate that process where if you sign up for us with us, we're a free to use platform. You get a shipping link that you can either put in your bio or send to customers through DMs. When customers click on the link, they enter into a shipping form made specifically for your business where they can, yes, fill out their address for shipping, but also fill out other useful details like their Instagram handle. So it's really easy to find that conversation again, what item they bought. So you can be like, oh shit, who bought what? It makes that process easier. And then also their email because we automate tracking for you as well. Because another part of that time consuming process was that I had to send a picture of every single tracking number back to the customer after I had done the whole shipping process. Once a customer hits submit, all that information is securely sent to your Thriftship account and so you can go through and you can purchase and print out USPS labels on our website at discounted pricing. We are 30 cents higher than pirate Ship and that is, is temporary for now. We are working night and day trying to grow so that we can get that same deal as them and bring our pricing down to match. That's kind of the vision that we have is having this be an accessible shipping site and then we're also growing far beyond shipping. So the first thing we did recently is now small businesses or sorry, customers can add to their order. When you click on that shipping link, if that's the second or third thing you bought from that business that that week, you can click the add to order button and using your Instagram handle, we can match, oh wow, you know, whatever item to your existing order. So you can be like, oh, like my name's Valeria. Boom, we find your Instagram and I bought the green turtleneck. Great. We added that to your already existing order where you also bought, you know, those white jeans. And so it makes it so, so much easier for the small business to keep track of things and also for you as a customer to feel like they have got everything, everything they need to ship out all of the products successfully. And right now we're working on building out inventory. So we've noticed that so many small businesses like we talked about, have inventory spreadsheets that they keep either on Excel or Google forms. We're going to Let you upload that so that when customers click on the shipping form and they start typing out green sweater, it says specifically green sweater with the polka dots. And so you know, it's your own words, what an item is. Because customers sometimes have a tendency to do things like right sweater. And you don't know if it's that green sweater you have or that purple sweater or that orange sweater. And so we're working on just making everything as fast and as pain free as possible so that when you get an order, you can fulfill it without having to double or triple check. Is it the right item, is it going to the right person, etc. Etc. And then from there we are moving on. We have a lot of things on our roadmap right now. So yes, we're a shipping company, but our goal is to expand to encapsulate the entire sales process so that you as an Instagram seller don't have to sacrifice any of your time on manual tasks. So, for example, we're working on a checkout process too. So on that same shipping form, you can pay the small business for their things and it would just be a transaction fee and then we would take a 2% fee versus the much, much larger 20% fee to make that transaction happening. These are all things that we still have under work somewhere figuring out the nitty gritty details. But in the next few months that's coming out. And then finally we're working on automating the entire DM section of everything or DM part of the selling process, where we can keep track of who DMs or, sorry, who comments on your posts so that we can automate a hey, you commented under that green sweater post, are you interested in buying? And if they say yes, then boom, we can send them that checkout link. And so you can still have that traditional like DM one on one interaction with the customer, but that first initial steps is done for you so you don't have to spend a lot of time doing it. Because the end goal of my business is that I want to make selling on Instagram the easiest thing possible so that people can keep doing it because they deserve to keep as much of their money as they possibly can and they deserve to not have to spend so much time on manual tasks as a result of, you know, getting to keep their money.

[Amanda]

That's amazing. And I'll just, I'll just add here too that like, when it comes to shipping and things like rates and the success of a platform, it really requires like more and More people to be involved and be using that platform. Like, the reason Pirate Ship can offer such cheap shipping is because so many people use it right. And they get a discount based on that volume. So if more people could shift over to Thrift Ship, you get all these other benefits that make it way easier. On top of that, the more people.

[Dustin]

I promise it's worth it.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And the more people who show up, the shipping rates themselves will go down.

[Dustin]

Exactly. And we are really close. Like, right now, we're only $0.30 higher than Pirate Ship.

[Amanda]

Yeah. You get way more value. You get way more than 30 cents of value from that.

[Dustin]

Yeah. And we found that customers are more than happy to cover that difference as a result of, like, A, it makes the entire selling process also feel a lot more official. Rather than DMing someone your address, you're not filling out a secure form, you know, And B, it just makes it so much easier on the small business that you're supporting. Like, you know, now you're not one of 30 people that they have to go and track down to make sure that they have the address typed in correctly into, like, another shipping website. Like, what you put is good.

[Amanda]

And.

[Dustin]

Yeah, that's. That's kind of my two cents on it. It started because I hated shipping, and now it's at a point where I'm just like, I love the reseller community. How can I make this so, so much easier beyond just, like, being able to buy USPS shipping labels on our site?

[Amanda]

I mean, I think that's amazing. I. The friends that I have, the people I know who sell strictly on Instagram or, like, especially the ones who sell live, I'm like, how do you keep.

[Valeria]

How do you juggle all these balls?

[Dustin]

Like, I just see them. I see them with their. With their pencil and their papers there, and I'm like, girl, like, you deserve so much more than this. Like, oh, it just. It's so endearing and beautiful to see, like, how much they care and how diligently they keep track of orders. But at the same time, it breaks my heart to see because I'm like, you deserve more. Like, you were putting so much effort in. If only the process was automated for you and, like, you didn't have to be the one to keep track of everything.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dustin]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I think this is such a great. Such a great resource for the resale community because, you know, we need more people reselling, so let's make it easier, you know? Do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share with everyone? Any like wisdom or, I don't know, just get people, people pumped up about resale.

[Dustin]

Just, it's so fun. Go with a friend, go to the thrift stores. Like, just spend two hours looking through like four racks total, just flipping it one by one, and I promise you, you're gonna find something that's either gonna make you laugh your ass off or make your jaw drop to the ground. Always one of the two happens. Like, reselling, sourcing is so much fun. Once again, I will say it until, like, my tongue wears out. Like, community is everything. Definitely feel free to reach out to us at Thriftship, like T H R Y F T S H I P And I will send you all of my favorite reselling accounts that have amazing resources, amazing communities that they're a part of that they can connect you with or just are so fun to look at and are aspirational and inspirational. Like, I'm here for you. The reseller community is here for you. All you have to do is reach out and ask and they're there with open arms. So that is, that's my two, my two cents on the whole thing.

[Amanda]

Well, thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation. I'm excited for everyone to hear it. Yay.

[Dustin]

Thank you again, Amanda. This was awesome.

[Amanda]

Thanks to Valeria for spending some time.

[Valeria]

With us and I'll share all the ways to find her in the show notes. And if you're a secondhand reseller, connect.

[Amanda]

With her more than ever.

[Valeria]

We need community, and many of us are part of several different communities at.

[Amanda]

Once and they all matter. And right now I'm trying to like, lean into all of my different communities, right?

[Valeria]

Like hanging out with the people from.

[Amanda]

My CO working space and joining groups of other like minded people for the.

[Valeria]

Various causes and issues that matter to me. Right. Connecting with my friend's irl, which I.

[Amanda]

Know sounds wild, but I'm a busy.

[Valeria]

Person and sometimes it's hard to do it all. But the people in my life matter to me so much and I just, I find so much comfort and joy in being around them. Um, I'm not sure if I mentioned.

[Amanda]

This in the last episode, but one.

[Valeria]

Of the most exciting things that happened recently is a couple weeks ago, Maggie Green, the Halloween queen, who you know from many episodes of Clothes Horse, actually.

[Amanda]

Came to visit me in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

[Valeria]

We had an amazing time. We had hot pot, ruby spokes, and stitches came out from Philly. We ate candy.

[Amanda]

We just laughed and laughed and talked.

[Valeria]

You know, gave them a tour of my weird home. And it was just so amazing to be with people in real life who are important to me.

[Amanda]

Even people like Maggie, who I've never met irl but I feel like is a part of my family.

[Valeria]

So just wanted to say how amazing that was and I'm excited that I'm.

[Amanda]

Hopefully gonna see Maggie again later this.

[Valeria]

Year when I do a show in Seattle in October.

[Amanda]

So what an amazing treat and an otherwise super weird time, right?

[Valeria]

I'm gonna wrap this episode up here.

[Amanda]

Because I know it's a long one and I need to get to work on stuff for my clients.

[Valeria]

The first week of the month is always the busiest.

[Amanda]

So thank you for spending some time.

[Valeria]

With me this week. I hope it was a nice distraction.

[Amanda]

Or at least least a little comfort during, you know, really stressful times. I want to thank you all again for giving me a reason every week.

[Valeria]

To keep going and stay optimistic and always stay learning. Working on this is just as much of a treat for me as it.

[Amanda]

Hopefully is for you, if you're still listening. So thank you.

[Valeria]

And with that, I'll say what I always say.

[Amanda]

Thank you for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse. If you liked what you heard, please leave a rating or review.

[Valeria]

Subscribe.

[Amanda]

Tell your friends. You know how it goes. Honestly, the most important thing you can.

[Valeria]

Do is just tell your friends. If you'd like to support my work.

[Amanda]

Financially, there are tons of ways you can do that.

[Valeria]

You can find the links in the.

[Amanda]

Show notes, you can find the links in my profile on every social media platform.

[Valeria]

I'm all over the place as osehorsepodcast. And of course, thank you as always.

[Amanda]

To my other half, Mr. Dustin Travis.

[Valeria]

White for our music, our audio support and for really helping me do a.

[Amanda]

Lot of garden work recently.

[Valeria]

That time of year there is trimming.

[Amanda]

And raking and hauling dirt and all kinds of other things. And I also just want to say low key brag here maybe. We bought a secondhand yard tractor a couple weeks ago. It is amazing. It operates as a mower but we can also haul things around. We can plow our driveway. Very, very exciting. Life upgrade for us. $450.

[Valeria]

Very well spent.

[Amanda]

I love looking out my window and seeing Dustin just ride around mowing the lawn on it.

[Valeria]

He just looks so happy.

[Amanda]

All right, I will talk to you all next week. Bye.